Questions to the Universalist.

[fullarmor2]

 Hey Peacetroll,   what about Paul's alls?  Or Jesus' alls for that matter?

[Peacetroll]

First,

since precept is built upon precept,

Do you see how the second death...also called the lake of fire....is a metaphor for the verb "destroyed"???

Peace to you in Christ.

[Craig]

Hey Peacetroll,   what about Paul's alls?  Or Jesus' alls for that matter?

I am not PT. However to focus on "All" is a mistake. That is because every "All" is qualified and catagorized to what it is quantifying. All does not universally mean all. If I say "The children in Sunday School came to me this morning, and all were given a big hug." Who is the 'all' in that statement? What is happening? Did 'all' include the adults in the sanctuary? Or all the people who walked down the street? No. Neither did all mean all the children of the world, or children who were not in Sunday School. All the "all" quantified was the "children in Sunday School".

[Peacetroll]

Very good distinction SOTW!

Another word that the world takes for granted the definition thereof is also 'Man' or 'Men', a word that changes meaning depending on the context of the discussion and level of the meaning (spiritual or earthy).

A Man or men in earthy general terms appears to mean all human beings or persons of the Homo sapien class.  It could also been taken to mean beings of the homo sapien class that have the chromosome pairing of XY  as opposed to XX.

A man or men in the spiritual or heavenly definition is one with Christ indwelling, and those with Christ in them are the Body or Temple or House, in whom his name is written...which is ..." Man."

I believe 'man' should have been capitalized, but that is the opinion of one man, myself.  Of course emphasizing 'man' in the following scriptures would have been to clear as well, giving a greater opportunity for everyone to make the connection or the deeper spiritual meaning of being a 'man'.

The darkness has blinded the world through a myriad of tools from  materialism (greed for money and gain), twisting of scripture from translation to translation for eons to flat out murdering sects of christians who were too close to the truth (thus murdered by the state or church in the name of whatever noble cause they could muster for the ignorant masses).

Regardless, if we pay attention to who Jesus declared himself to be (see following scriptures),...then we may get some insight into the Fathers true name.....

Mark 2:10
But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)

Matthew 26:64
Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Luke 6:5
And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Did Jesus declare his name?  What did he call himself?  Who's son was he???

John 17:26
And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

Those in Christ and he in them have what written in their hearts evident by their fruits?

What classifies one as 'righteous' in Peter's, David's and Christ' eyes?

What classifies one as 'wicked' to each one of these 'mens' opinions?

Have a good weekend everyone.

Peacetroll.

[fullarmor2]

Hey Peacetroll,   what about Paul's alls?  Or Jesus' alls for that matter?

I am not PT. However to focus on "All" is a mistake. That is because every "All" is qualified and catagorized to what it is quantifying. All does not universally mean all. If I say "The children in Sunday School came to me this morning, and all were given a big hug." Who is the 'all' in that statement? What is happening? Did 'all' include the adults in the sanctuary? Or all the people who walked down the street? No. Neither did all mean all the children of the world, or children who were not in Sunday School. All the "all" quantified was the "children in Sunday School".

      I hear you. Although I don't think its a mistake if you have the right context.  The context of your "all" example makes your point pretty obviously.  Not so regarding  the contexts containing the "alls"  I'm referring to.  For example.  The "If I be lifted up" verse.  The all in this verse means all I would think.(particularly in light of all other similar verses)   Whereas the all in your example clearly does not mean all, but only those in the class. I think its all about the context.
     Now, your right,  folks can easily disagree and take the position that the alls I'm talking about don't mean all like you said.  However,  all you have to do is  talk about all the salvation verses that use all.  Starting with the first promises of salvation and blessing to Abraham, and his seed, so ALL the World can be blessed,  right on down the line. And you should be able to show that its alot less reasonable to take the position that all does not mean all in these verses. 

[Peacetroll]

 God will cause all men to be saved.Men to God are all who are in His family,the sons of God,who is Man which is in heaven Called the Father!

Ephesians 3:14For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

15Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

16That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;

Think what this means in Psalms.

Psalm 107:40He poureth contempt upon princes, and causeth them to wander in the wilderness, where there is no way.

41Yet setteth he the poor on high from affliction, and maketh him families like a flock.  

42The righteous shall see it, and rejoice: and all iniquity shall stop her mouth.

This tells us that families He makes here who are His flock,are all part of that one big family He is the Father of in heaven and on earth,that good shepherd.

In this time there are in those families few who are chosen to understand rejoice,they are the Bride of Christ.

Jeremiah 3:14
Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:

Married means totally commited to.

All means all but you must understand the context.

Take what Jesus said about our pearls of wisdom He has given us.Was He telling one not to preach to dogs and pigs?Or,is He talking about the spiritual condition of many human beings?

Mathew 7:6Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

7Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

Look at what happened to Stephen when he was forced to cast his pearls before swine!

Acts 7:53Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

54When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

55But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

Were these beasts spiritually men, as Stephen was?

[FineLinen]

God will cause all men to be saved.

Yup!

Who will have all men to be saved = ov pantav anqrwpouv qelei swqhnai.

Qelei/ willeth marking a determinate purpose.

Literally: who willeth all men.  As who, or seeing that He, giving the ground of the previous statement, prayer to God for all is acceptable to Him, because he wills the salvation of all.

[Peacetroll]

 Again I ask,are all human beings men to God?
Consider what Jesus said in this parable.

Matthew 13: 34All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

35That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

36Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

37He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

He just explained who planted the wheat,and who planted the tare.
Here He explains again what will happen to those not planted by God.

Matthew 15:12Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?

13But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.

14Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

Therefore,all human beings are not men in the eyes of God, only those whom He planted are part of man.Those called tares are not planted by Him,and are not seen as men.

A wheat plant and a tare look the same until the time of harvest when the fruit head forms.The wheat forms a head with wheat kernals,some 30,some 60,and some an hundred.
Tares mature a bitter black poisonous shriveled seed of no use at all.
You can not tell the wheat from the tare until the heads develope, so untill then you would destroy the wheat to get the tares out of the field.Why jesus said:

Matthew 13:28He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

29But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

He explained how to learn to know tares by their works.

Matthew 7:15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?  

17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

The wheat are not the tares,and the tares will never be made wheat.

All men will be saved,every man in his own order.The tares will be destroyed from the presence of God,all at the same time,with their father and his angels.

Paul told the truth, being, as he himself said, a deciver, yet, truthfull.Will you take a litteral interpetation of what Paul said over the many declarations of Jesus,God with us,
about this very thing?Remember the warning of Peter to all about wrestling with Paul's writings.

2 Peter 3:15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

17Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

What did the churches know before?THE WORDS OF JESUS CHRIST!

[Craig]

God will cause all men to be saved.

Yup!

Who will have all men to be saved = ov pantav anqrwpouv qelei swqhnai.

Qelei/ willeth marking a determinate purpose.

Literally: who willeth all men.  As who, or seeing that He, giving the ground of the previous statement, prayer to God for all is acceptable to Him, because he wills the salvation of all.

Salvation for all mankind. Not 'all'.

[fullarmor2]

Salvation for all mankind. Not 'all'.

   It can only mean one of three things. 
   
   1) All will be saved.
   2) Not all,  some will be incarcerated forever.
   3) Not all,  some will be destroyed.

   Which do you think it is SOtW?
   

[Craig]

This reply:

It can only mean one of three things. 
   
   1) All will be saved.
   2) Not all,  some will be incarcerated forever.
   3) Not all,  some will be destroyed.

   Which do you think it is SOtW?

...is irrelevant because it is a strawman argument. I am not talking about salvation of mankind, I am talking about the usage of 'all'. When I say Jesus saved all mankind, I mean He saved all mankind. We ALWAYS need to QUANTIFY and QUALIFY what ALL means. We cannot say, "Jesus saved all," because that is wrong, he did not save 'all'. We can say, "Jesus saved all mankind," because that is correct, He saved 'all mankind'. 'All' is an adjective and needs a noun to qualify it.

[Peacetroll]

Exactly!

Jesus did save all 'mankind' and thats the bottom line.

Now we SHOULD focus on the actual spiritual definition of 'mankind'!  and NOT the earthy definition to give us a clearer understanding!!!

What seperates a 'man' from a 'beast' in the spiritual sense????

The scriptures below have a spiritual message, I believe if we have not Christ in us we are merely 'beasts' in God's eyes, and not men.....

Jonah 3:8
But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.

Job 18:3
Wherefore are we counted as beasts, and reputed vile in your sight?

Jude 1:10
But these people blaspheme all that they do not understand, and they are destroyed by all that they, like unreasoning animals, understand instinctively.

2 Peter 2:12
But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed, blaspheming about matters of which they are ignorant, will also be destroyed in their destruction,

Without Christ in us we are not his brothers or sisters.  If we are not his kin, then we are not sons or daughters of God or 'Man' in heaven.  Therefore we are not 'Men' or 'Mankind' in the spiritual sense, and it is the spiritual that matters in the long run!!!

Idea on Idea, line upon line,...here a little there a little my friends!!!

If you do believe in Christ (and in truth), then you (by the GRACE of God), have been chosen/elected to be adopted into his family....you are a 'Man' and being a member of 'mankind' you now KNOW to do good and reject the evil!!!!!!

Micah 6:8
He has told you, O man (or O true believer in Christ!!!!), what is good;and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

And Jesus gave 'Mankind' not 'beasts' the following commandment...

John 15:12
"This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you."

How can we know a 'beast' (or one in darkness) from a 'man' (or one in the light) ......spiritually speaking??

BY THEIR FRUITS!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Craig]

I believe all mankind is talking all who are the decendents of Adam and Nations under Abraham. There is no difference, mankind refers to the mortal being of the homosapien race.

[Peacetroll]

How do you explain this prayer of Jesus for the children of God?

John 17
1These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

4I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

6I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

7Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

8For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

9I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

10And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

11And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

13And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

14I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

15I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

16They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

18As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

19And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

25O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.

26And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

[Craig]

Nothing you provided PT, gives any credibility to your argument to your definition of mankind. Nowhere does it support your position in any of John 17. The distinction you think you see, is not there.

[Peacetroll]

SOTW.

Perhaps you will answer this for me.

Is a 'man' in God's view your spiritual condition or simply the flesh bones and blood?

Do you always take 'man' and 'mankind' in the literal sense of every context??????

Is Christ the son of Man?  or not????

How would you define 'Man' in the spiritual sense?

(try looking beyond the chromosomes that make up the flesh!).  I've presented many scriptures that indicate my point, if you still see no validity in the pose, I can only say I tried!

Regardless,......I look forward to your reply.


Galatians 3:26
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Psalm 49:20
Man that is in honour, and understandeth not, is like the beasts that perish.

John 8:24
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

John 6:53
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Galatians 3:14
That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

[Craig]

Man is man. Mankind is mankind.

[reFORMer]

Oh, just go ahead and love everybody, even your enemies, as Jesus said to do, and it will shortly become apparent to you that, "the Living God" is, "The Saviour of ALL mankind, specially of believers." (1 Tim 4¹⁰)  Without that, how can you truly be, "...in God's house, which is the ecclesia of the Living God, the pillar and base of the Truth"?  (1 Tim 3¹⁵)

[Craig]

Oh, just go ahead and love everybody, even your enemies, as Jesus said to do, and it will shortly become apparent to you that, "the Living God" is, "The Saviour of ALL mankind, specially of believers." (1 Tim 4¹⁰)  Without that, how can you truly be, "...in God's house, which is the ecclesia of the Living God, the pillar and base of the Truth"?  (1 Tim 3¹⁵)

Yep, that verse that establishes it reFORMer :) Amen.

[Peacetroll]

 
spe·cial·ly [ spésh'lee ]

adverb 

Definition:
 
expressly: for a special or particular purpose, person, or occasion
It was intended specially for preschoolers.
I had it specially made.

The key term in the text is the word "specially" (Greek: málista). A proper understanding of it will solve the problems. The word can be translated "specially, mostly, above all." Recent studies made on the usage of this term in Greek papyrus letters have shown that this particle was used to define in a more precise way what preceded it and could be rendered "that is," "in other words," or similar expressions. If we use that translation in 1 Timothy 4:10, the interpretational problem disappears: "Because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, that is, of those that believe." The phrase "all men" would then mean "all sorts of people," possibly Jews and Gentiles. There is no need to introduce the idea of universalism or of a legal salvation that has no immediate effect on the final destiny of the individual.
      On the cross God made provision for the salvation of every human being, but only those who believe will be saved.

Laymens Terms.

1 Timothy 4:10 the word 'specially' in the the english translations and modern translations is a qualifying term. 

'specially' = málista = 'that is' = a qualifier exlaining the exact meaning of who will be saved.  And this lines up perfectly then with Christ' words...

John 8:24
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

And Pauls' difficult to be understood epistles now makes perfect sense!

Good day!

[SeekerSA]

Thus "in Adam SOME die and thus SOME are made righteous in Christ."

You cannot have you cake and eat it Eric.

Blessings

[Peacetroll]

I hope you at least digest what was placed instead of instantly being contentious and having divergent conversations world without end.

IN Adam ALL do die.

In Christ All are made alive!

As I've been trying to tell you, all those who believe in Christ are alive and will live.

Unless you be born again (born in Christ), you will die in your sins (flesh/Adam mechanizm).

[SeekerSA]

I hope you at least digest what was placed instead of instantly being contentious and having divergent conversations world without end.

IN Adam ALL do die.

In Christ All are made alive!

As I've been trying to tell you, all those who believe in Christ are alive and will live.

Unless you be born again (born in Christ), you will die in your sins (flesh/Adam mechanizm).

Others have challenged your approach of ignoring texts and I have said you cherry pick.

I read your posts yet you do not read mine.  You make salvation dependant on our choices thus you pull God down to a carnal level.

None of you folk can answer one question.  What of those that never heard?  Romans 18-20 I am afraid does not cut it, that was written to believers, they knew.

You are sin focussed, I am not.

Blessings

[Craig]

1 Timothy 4:9-11
This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe. Command and teach these things.

Since you want to be specific, I do not know what translation reFORMer uses but the word word 'specially' is actually translated 'especially', translated from the greek word 'Malista' which does not mean 'specially' as PeaceTroll defines it.

Malista = Especially, with special notice to, in particular, etc.

So here is the example:

I walked into a room and said hello to all the guests, especially my Mr. and Mrs. Lyons who travelled all the way from Austria to be with me tonight.

Now does this mean I did not say hello to all the guests?
Now does this mean I only said hello to Mr. and Mrs. Lyons?

If we are going to use words and grammar, we need to understand the language we are using.

1 Timothy 4:9-11
This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe. Command and teach these things.

Sets it quite clear, that all men, refers to the mortal perishable creature that we are, whether believer or unbeliever, and He is savior of all men especially of the believer.

[Peacetroll]

 I am belief focused. :thumbsup:

 Talk about ignoring scriptures.  I post many that go hand in glove.I get one or two back with what you think they mean , making up the bulk of your rejection of overwhelming evidence presented. :dontknow: :dontknow:

Sotw,the greek was explained,especially is a word english uses to interchange with specially that is used as you say, still, the word malista means 'that is',or 'in other words'
in the context with which Paul used it.