Questions to the Universalist.

[Craig]

The following is a plea by someone online who publicly asks for help concerning UR.

http://www.ovrlnd.com/Universalism/unieletter.html

I realize that not all of the following is believed by every universalist, but all of the following is believed by some universalists. Therefore, I ask for proof because I can find no evidence of the following in Scripture despite the assertions of universalists:

1) The sins of the wicked being forgiven in the after life.

2) The wicked repenting in the after life.

3) The wicked accepting Jesus Christ in the after life.

4) The wicked avoiding judgment in the after life.

5) The wicked having sin "conditioned" out of them in the after life.

6) God tormenting the wicked in the lake of fire (presumably to condition sin out of the wicked).

7) The wicked getting out of the lake of fire.

8) Nor can I find anywhere that God repents of His judgment on Satan in the afterlife, or anywhere else. Satan was condemned by the Almighty in Genesis chapter three.

9) Nor do I see any evidence that God will acquit any fallen angel ever.

10) Nor do I see all peoples being saved in the after life.

Care to take a shot in answering his questions?

[james.goetz]

The following is a plea by someone online who publicly asks for help concerning UR.

http://www.ovrlnd.com/Universalism/unieletter.html

I realize that not all of the following is believed by every universalist, but all of the following is believed by some universalists. Therefore, I ask for proof because I can find no evidence of the following in Scripture despite the assertions of universalists:
1) The sins of the wicked being forgiven in the after life.
2) The wicked repenting in the after life.
3) The wicked accepting Jesus Christ in the after life.
4) The wicked avoiding judgment in the after life.
5) The wicked having sin "conditioned" out of them in the after life.
6) God tormenting the wicked in the lake of fire (presumably to condition sin out of the wicked).
7) The wicked getting out of the lake of fire.
8) Nor can I find anywhere that God repents of His judgment on Satan in the afterlife, or anywhere else. Satan was condemned by the Almighty in Genesis chapter three.
9) Nor do I see any evidence that God will acquit any fallen angel ever.
10) Nor do I see all peoples being saved in the after life.

Care to take a shot in answering his questions?

My paper has a perspective that addresses all of these questions.
http://theoperspectives.blogspot.com/2007/10/orthodoxy-and-gregory-of-nyssas.html
I could dialogue more with this person if he or she would like it. But my free time is currently backlogged with trying to keep up with other conversations that I got myself into.:)

[SeekerSA]

I think we had a bash at this on the last board.

First off, the questions are all based from a bias of a futurist so trying to answer concise and directly will be difficult and most of CU's believe in the here and now.

1) The sins of the wicked being forgiven in the after life.

The sins of all men are already forgiven by the cross.  It is a done deal and what salvation is about is not about getting sins forgiven, it is about entering into the kingdom now as opposed to later.

2) The wicked repenting in the after life.

Every knee shall bow.  When you give reverence to someone, you put aside all pride and piety.

3) The wicked accepting Jesus Christ in the after life.

As sin dies with the flesh, only the spirit of the man is resurrected, w/o a sinful nature anymore, there is only one choice thay can make.

4) The wicked avoiding judgment in the after life.

Problem here is based on the premise of sin being judged.  Works are judged.  If anything goes into a fire of sorts it will be the sin and not the sinner.  Even our works shall be judged and many, if not all, will also be consumed by flames.  Our most righteous works are as filthy rags, either they get washed anew or burned.

5) The wicked having sin "conditioned" out of them in the after life.

This follows the premise, we are resurrected sin and all.  The wages of sin is death.

6) God tormenting the wicked in the lake of fire (presumably to condition sin out of the wicked).

Ditto

7) The wicked getting out of the lake of fire.

Ditto

8) Nor can I find anywhere that God repents of His judgment on Satan in the afterlife, or anywhere else. Satan was condemned by the Almighty in Genesis chapter three.

There is scripture of all things being reconciled, here it is in context.  I however only believe only those dead in Adam will be reconciled.

Col 1:13  For He has delivered us from the power of darkness and has translated us into the kingdom of His dear Son;
Col 1:14  in whom we have redemption through His blood, the remission of sins.
Col 1:15  who is the image of the invisible God, the First-born of all creation.
Col 1:16  For all things were created in Him, the things in the heavens, and the things on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers, all things were created through Him and for Him.
Col 1:17  And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.
Col 1:18  And He is the Head of the body, the church, who is the Beginning, the First-born from the dead, that He may be pre-eminent in all things.
Col 1:19  For it pleased the Father that in Him all fullness should dwell.
Col 1:20  And through Him having made peace through the blood of His cross, it pleased the Father to reconcile all things to Himself through Him, whether the things on earth or the things in Heaven.

9) Nor do I see any evidence that God will acquit any fallen angel ever.

Well the fallen angels is a myth to start with.  I guess he is asking about the nephilim aka horny angels.  Strange the angels do not rape our lasses today, Ah yes, God put a stop to that.  Wow god must realy have been dumb to be caught out by his own creation just like when Adam and Eve sinned, wow He must be on plan F at least by now, what a dumb god.

10) Nor do I see all peoples being saved in the after life.

Problem here is, just like all the other questions, it is posed from his theology is 100% correct so I guess he is god, now who can argue with a god eh?

Jesus came to save us all from our sins.  Sins have consequence in this life not the afterlife.

If we have to account for only 1 sin, then Jesus died in vain.  It means that His sacrifice was not redemptive enough.

The single biggest problem with this person is he is under law and not grace.  He thinks he has a will stronger than God's will.

He has anyway made his mind up and no amount of sharing with him of Father's UNCONDITIONAL Love will move him.  Best leave it to the Holy Spirit.

It actually amazes me how people that did not or were not subject to a hell-fire doctrine can embrace UR easier.  Brain washing is powerful stuff.

Blessings

[Reverend G]

God would never throw out the baby with the bathwater, and we are all His "babies", even the least of us. Would you willingly sacrifice your favorite Son to save all of your children who have fallen short?  God would.

[Gizmo]

Care to take a shot in answering his questions?

To me these are straw men questions since scripture and the Bible teach Jesus has already reconciled the entire world.  The entire world is holy and blameless since that which works wrath, the law, was fulfilled and completed by Jesus on the cross.  He drew all of humankind into Himself at the cross and we are all in Him.  Not everyone has knowledge of this fact [including 99.9999% of Jesus' supposed followers], but they will believe when they pass away since to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.  The church likes to take the ONE new man created by God and redivide them into "believers" and "non-believers".

Hope all is well...

Giz

[Reverend G]

I'm not gonna take on the questions, to me it's a moot point.  He will believe as he believes, and likely find others who believe as he does.  The sadness will be him teaching his doctrine to others who will accept it.  Ya know, all those repititions of "his" in those sentences did kinda remind me of the earlier comment, seems he wants to be God vicarious, don't the catholics already have that one cornered?  Anyways, he will not impact my beliefs, and those who choose to converse with me will hopefully accept the truth as I see it.  Not that I could ever understand everything.  Just simple truths and good news for all men.

[Craig]

I'm not gonna take on the questions, to me it's a moot point.  He will believe as he believes, and likely find others who believe as he does.  The sadness will be him teaching his doctrine to others who will accept it.  Ya know, all those repititions of "his" in those sentences did kinda remind me of the earlier comment, seems he wants to be God vicarious, don't the catholics already have that one cornered?  Anyways, he will not impact my beliefs, and those who choose to converse with me will hopefully accept the truth as I see it.  Not that I could ever understand everything.  Just simple truths and good news for all men.

'

It is not for his benefit, but yours that you are able to answer his questions. Why ignore it? The point is, if we cannot give a reasonable answer, then how is there any hope that what we know is true?

1 Peter 3:15
But in your hearts set Christ apart as holy [and acknowledge Him] as Lord. Always be ready to give a logical defense to anyone who asks you to account for the hope that is in you, but do it courteously and respectfully.

[Sunofmysoul]

I'm not gonna take on the questions, to me it's a moot point.  He will believe as he believes, and likely find others who believe as he does.  The sadness will be him teaching his doctrine to others who will accept it.  Ya know, all those repititions of "his" in those sentences did kinda remind me of the earlier comment, seems he wants to be God vicarious, don't the catholics already have that one cornered?  Anyways, he will not impact my beliefs, and those who choose to converse with me will hopefully accept the truth as I see it.  Not that I could ever understand everything.  Just simple truths and good news for all men.

'

It is not for his benefit, but yours that you are able to answer his questions. Why ignore it? The point is, if we cannot give a reasonable answer, then how is there any hope that what we know is true?

1 Peter 3:15
But in your hearts set Christ apart as holy [and acknowledge Him] as Lord. Always be ready to give a logical defense to anyone who asks you to account for the hope that is in you, but do it courteously and respectfully.

This is an excellant thought and verse, for there may be others like myself reading and interested in the answers that you choose not to give....
I would love to see some replies to this....
blessing to you all
a seeker,
sun

[Reverend G]

I wholly support you in that regard, though I must say I am not ready at this time to take up that discussion.  I just find it so odd that people will find it possible that the same Christ that said to the Father of His tormentors, "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do" would be unable to forgive any other human ever.  I mean come on, we are talking about definitely non-Christian people, and here he is asking they be forgiven.

[Sunofmysoul]

I wholly support you in that regard, though I must say I am not ready at this time to take up that discussion.  I just find it so odd that people will find it possible that the same Christ that said to the Father of His tormentors, "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do" would be unable to forgive any other human ever.  I mean come on, we are talking about definitely non-Christian people, and here he is asking they be forgiven.

You may not believe this, but there are some, (myself specifically)
who were raised without the thought of universalism as even a possibility...
so believe it or not, the way you interpret this verse, was new to me...and quite interesting.  Please don't look down on me for not seeing it in this light ever before...I think I was raised with "glossed over" verses, and some verses interpreted differently.  If for instance you put on blue glasses what you read looks, well, blue... so for someone who was raised differently...this could be all new and important to understand.  If you are not interested in explaining your light...then perhaps others will be?

[Faith]

Hi all
I am trying to make this as short as I can and hope it goes up properly.

John 17

Joh 17:1 - John 17:4

Here Jesus has been given power over all flesh. All were given to Jesus to be in his power. All that are given to him will be given eternal life.

And Now......
Jesus praying for the 12 apostles.

John 17:6 John 17:12

Judas was lost. What does Jesus do with the lost?

Mat 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
Mat 18:12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
Mat 18:13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
Mat 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

Further info on lost. An article taken from Gary A.'s website at the bottom of this article.

What is the will of God?

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

It is God's will to gather all that are given to Jesus. God's works all things after the counsel of his will. It is not his desire that will not be accomplished. It is his purpose to accomplish the saving of all.

Joh 17:13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
Joh 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Joh 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
Joh 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

If Jesus is not of the world, does that mean he will not safe the world?

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

I believe we should be thinking of bad works versus good works rather than good people versus bad people. Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil, not to destroy the person themselves.



When it comes to being a wicked one, I would have to assume that also means a sinner. We are all sinners. Not one of us is free from sin. We will be sinners till at least we die. So one would assume since we are all sinners we will all be judged after we die.

Quote from Elwin R. Roach

A lake by definition is a body of water. THE LAKE of burning brimstone is a body of Godfire. He makes His angels spirits and His ministers flames of fire (Psa. 104:4). The Body of Christ is a many-membered body consisting of those who have been baptized into that Body (not water but His Body). The spirit of each member is a candle of the Lord (Prov. 20:27), and when they all burn with the flaming brightness of God's Spirit, GODFIRE, and they cover the earth as the waters cover the seas, you have THE LAKE OF FIRE even BRIMSTONE, THE LAKE OF GODFIRE! His Body, THE BODY OF THE SON OF GOD, composed of the flaming Sons of God, is what those with the mark of the beast (wood, hay, and stubble) will be cast/baptized into. It matters not whether it was yesterday, today, tomorrow, or in the age to come, or even beyond, Jesus will baptize every soul with the Spirit of His Holy Fire; every soul shall be thoroughly salted with it; He will purge the floor of His earth -- the earth that "...is the Lord's, the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein!" (Psa. 24:1). Oh, children of this age, what a baptism, what a purging! And in the end, each and everyone will joyfully say -- "I needed that."


Article from Tentmaker's website.

"What About how the Bible says that those who do not believe will perish?"

"Perishing"

Whenever you see Jesus use a word such as "perish" or "destroy," the original word is "apollumi." The Greek word "apollumi" means to "to lose, or to be lost." It is the same word Jesus used when He said

"I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel" (Matthew 15:24).

and

"Does he not leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, "Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep"" (Luke 15:4-7).

This word, "apollumi," is used to describe a sheep which was lost and then was found and restored. And Christ uses this same exact word in the following verse:

"Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell" (Matthew 10:28-29). (The word translated as "Hell" in this verse is actually Gehenna, the city dump outside of Jerusalem)

The original word for "destroy" there is "apollumi" which means "to lose or be lost." This verse is not speaking of an eternal annihilation of a soul, but of a temporary losing of the soul, just like the "lost" sheep that was later found. It is the same with all the times you see Jesus speaking of someone "perishing." Such as in John 3:16:

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

A better translation would be "whoever believes in Him should not be lost." We are all lost until God finds us. Those who die yet unbelieving will experience further "apollumi," or being "lost" in the lake of fire, which is the second death. But God has promised to destroy all death once and for all and grant belief to all at the consummation of the ages.

Those who are "lost" or "perished," are like the lost sheep. The lost sheep was perished, but the shepherd sought it out and restored it. We are all like the lost sheep before God finds us. Even now we are. We are all "apollumi", or "lost and perished" as the lost sheep was. We are separated and alienated from God. But the lost sheep did not stay that way. And neither does anyone else. The Good Shepherd does not stop looking until He has found the last one.

by JW

[fullarmor2]

Hi all
I am trying to make this as short as I can and hope it goes up properly.

John 17

Joh 17:1 - John 17:4

Here Jesus has been given power over all flesh. All were given to Jesus to be in his power. All that are given to him will be given eternal life.

And Now......
Jesus praying for the 12 apostles.

John 17:6 John 17:12

Judas was lost. What does Jesus do with the lost?

Mat 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
Mat 18:12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
Mat 18:13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
Mat 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

Further info on lost. An article taken from Gary A.'s website at the bottom of this article.

What is the will of God?

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

It is God's will to gather all that are given to Jesus. God's works all things after the counsel of his will. It is not his desire that will not be accomplished. It is his purpose to accomplish the saving of all.

Joh 17:13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
Joh 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Joh 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
Joh 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

If Jesus is not of the world, does that mean he will not safe the world?

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

I believe we should be thinking of bad works versus good works rather than good people versus bad people. Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil, not to destroy the person themselves.



When it comes to being a wicked one, I would have to assume that also means a sinner. We are all sinners. Not one of us is free from sin. We will be sinners till at least we die. So one would assume since we are all sinners we will all be judged after we die.

Quote from Elwin R. Roach

A lake by definition is a body of water. THE LAKE of burning brimstone is a body of Godfire. He makes His angels spirits and His ministers flames of fire (Psa. 104:4). The Body of Christ is a many-membered body consisting of those who have been baptized into that Body (not water but His Body). The spirit of each member is a candle of the Lord (Prov. 20:27), and when they all burn with the flaming brightness of God's Spirit, GODFIRE, and they cover the earth as the waters cover the seas, you have THE LAKE OF FIRE even BRIMSTONE, THE LAKE OF GODFIRE! His Body, THE BODY OF THE SON OF GOD, composed of the flaming Sons of God, is what those with the mark of the beast (wood, hay, and stubble) will be cast/baptized into. It matters not whether it was yesterday, today, tomorrow, or in the age to come, or even beyond, Jesus will baptize every soul with the Spirit of His Holy Fire; every soul shall be thoroughly salted with it; He will purge the floor of His earth -- the earth that "...is the Lord's, the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein!" (Psa. 24:1). Oh, children of this age, what a baptism, what a purging! And in the end, each and everyone will joyfully say -- "I needed that."


Article from Tentmaker's website.

"What About how the Bible says that those who do not believe will perish?"

"Perishing"

Whenever you see Jesus use a word such as "perish" or "destroy," the original word is "apollumi." The Greek word "apollumi" means to "to lose, or to be lost." It is the same word Jesus used when He said

"I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel" (Matthew 15:24).

and

"Does he not leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, "Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep"" (Luke 15:4-7).

This word, "apollumi," is used to describe a sheep which was lost and then was found and restored. And Christ uses this same exact word in the following verse:

"Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell" (Matthew 10:28-29). (The word translated as "Hell" in this verse is actually Gehenna, the city dump outside of Jerusalem)

The original word for "destroy" there is "apollumi" which means "to lose or be lost." This verse is not speaking of an eternal annihilation of a soul, but of a temporary losing of the soul, just like the "lost" sheep that was later found. It is the same with all the times you see Jesus speaking of someone "perishing." Such as in John 3:16:

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

A better translation would be "whoever believes in Him should not be lost." We are all lost until God finds us. Those who die yet unbelieving will experience further "apollumi," or being "lost" in the lake of fire, which is the second death. But God has promised to destroy all death once and for all and grant belief to all at the consummation of the ages.

Those who are "lost" or "perished," are like the lost sheep. The lost sheep was perished, but the shepherd sought it out and restored it. We are all like the lost sheep before God finds us. Even now we are. We are all "apollumi", or "lost and perished" as the lost sheep was. We are separated and alienated from God. But the lost sheep did not stay that way. And neither does anyone else. The Good Shepherd does not stop looking until He has found the last one.

by JW

:iagree:

[PaulTheJesusFreak]

The following is a plea by someone online who publicly asks for help concerning UR.

http://www.ovrlnd.com/Universalism/unieletter.html

I realize that not all of the following is believed by every universalist, but all of the following is believed by some universalists. Therefore, I ask for proof because I can find no evidence of the following in Scripture despite the assertions of universalists:
1) The sins of the wicked being forgiven in the after life.
2) The wicked repenting in the after life.
3) The wicked accepting Jesus Christ in the after life.
4) The wicked avoiding judgment in the after life.
5) The wicked having sin "conditioned" out of them in the after life.
6) God tormenting the wicked in the lake of fire (presumably to condition sin out of the wicked).
7) The wicked getting out of the lake of fire.
8) Nor can I find anywhere that God repents of His judgment on Satan in the afterlife, or anywhere else. Satan was condemned by the Almighty in Genesis chapter three.
9) Nor do I see any evidence that God will acquit any fallen angel ever.
10) Nor do I see all peoples being saved in the after life.

Care to take a shot in answering his questions?

My paper has a perspective that addresses all of these questions.
http://theoperspectives.blogspot.com/2007/10/orthodoxy-and-gregory-of-nyssas.html
I could dialogue more with this person if he or she would like it. But my free time is currently backlogged with trying to keep up with other conversations that I got myself into.:)

Christ died on the cross to save the Flesh of Man kind from death and sin. Mankind becomes immortal. The Fallen Angels and the Devil are spirit beings, and are not mortal. Thus they cannot be saved. They are completely evil and cannot be changed. Christ did not come to Earth to save them, He came to save His Children.

I do not believe Satan nor his fallen angels will be saved. The Bible does not have a scripture that says they die the lake of fire...

10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

I get this to mean 'unto the ages of ages', this probably is a really long time.

12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

I think it is a clear distinction that they will have "THEIR PART" in the lake. They won't remain there always. The second death is not literal, it symbolizes dying out to sin. The Devil and hisangels, however... we are not given any scripture that says they die the second death. This answers the question of whether or not they will 'get out' of the fire. The fire only burns until it cleanses and purges away everything that needs to be burned away.

There isn't a Scripture that blatantly says "in Revelation" that people will be saved, besides the fact that if you have an understanding that the lake of fire is a purifying and cleansing fire and not a literal one, because Our God is a consuming Fire! Hebrews 12:29

Revelation 14:10-11 These are tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb.

These are tormented - not tortured.

Fear hath torment! = 1 John 4:18

To the unsaved, His Glory is a Lake of Fire and Brimstone - divine, cleansing, purging, purifying, consuming fire. This is why they are tormented. It is not God purposely hurting them in any way.

Fire is a great cleanser, purifier, and changer.


"That at the name of Jesus (Jehovah-Saviour—THEIR Saviour) EVERY knee should bow, in heaven, and in earth, and under the earth; and that EVERY tongue should confess ('That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God has raised Him from the dead, THOU SHALT BE SAVED', Rom. 10:9) that Jesus Christ (Christ, who was 'raised from the dead.' Christ was already 'RISEN' when this was written in Phil. 2:11) is Lord ('Lord' means 'master'—acknowledging Christ as Master of their lives), to the glory of God the Father" Phil. 2:10-11.

The Holy Spirit inspires this sincere voluntary act. 1 Cor. 12:3

This event obviously happens after the resurrection of the unjust and the just.

Judgement is correction for the Unbelievers. God will judge sinners with His very Word.

[fullarmor2]

 

"I think it is a clear distinction that they will have "THEIR PART" in the lake. They won't remain there always. The second death is not literal, it symbolizes dying out to sin.  The fire only burns until it cleanses and purges away everything that needs to be burned away".


"To the unsaved, His Glory is a Lake of Fire and Brimstone - divine, cleansing, purging, purifying, consuming fire. This is why they are tormented. It is not God purposely hurting them in any way".

:iagree:
              I like that. Your talking about how God will consummate the "dying to the old person" process,  so the new person can emerge,  made in the image of Christ.

[Craig]

(if you read the reply to your 'Is the Univresalist right about Aion'....

Your talking about how God will consummate the "dying to the old person" process,  so the new person can emerge,  made in the image of Christ.

....is called AIONIOS.)

[Reverend G]

Just to represent opposition, an alternative meaning to "their part" in the lake of fire is offered.  It could be viewed as thier part of the lake, just as children have their part of a pool (the shallow part), or men condemned to death have "their part" of a prison, i.e. death row.  This denotes no time factor.  Accordingly, they could spend eternity in that place.  I don't think so, but had to proffer the comment.  How long is half of eternity?

[Peacetroll]

 The millineum is the period when all who will may come to Jesus and put faith in Him.ALL sins in this evil time forgiven.ALL.But what then?The work of gathering and seperating begins.

Done by Christ and His saints, who were chosen by Him by grace, without spot or wrinkle,for they are in Him and He IS their righteousness.

Malachi 3:17And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.

18Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

Isaiah 55
1Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.

2Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness.

3Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.

A second witness to this.

Revelation 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

The question becomes whosoever will.

Why do you think the scripture say Satan decieves the nations a second time?    Second?
Same people at the end of the millineum.The tares. The wheat has been gathered.They are who will come during the millineum.

All the sons of Adam,the son of God,who was given the breath of life.The crop God planted.

Job 34:10Therefore hearken unto me ye men of understanding: far be it from God, that he should do wickedness; and from the Almighty, that he should commit iniquity.

11For the work of a man shall he render unto him, and cause every man to find according to his ways.

12Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.

13Who hath given him a charge over the earth? or who hath disposed the whole world?

14If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;

15All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.

16If now thou hast understanding, hear this: hearken to the voice of my words.

[Craig]

Just to represent opposition, an alternative meaning to "their part" in the lake of fire is offered.  It could be viewed as thier part of the lake, just as children have their part of a pool (the shallow part), or men condemned to death have "their part" of a prison, i.e. death row.  This denotes no time factor.  Accordingly, they could spend eternity in that place.  I don't think so, but had to proffer the comment.  How long is half of eternity?

Aionios does not always have a time factor. Aionios simply means, something that lasts until it lasts and has a transitionary quality.

[Faith]

Thanks SOtW, for years I have tried to read articles on aionios and couldnt even get thru them. That simple sentence of "Aionios does not always have a time factor. Aionios simply means, something that lasts until it lasts and has a transitionary quality." finally allows me to understand.

Thanks
Faith

[Craig]

For some people, that definition is 'pointless'. They don't think that it gives any clarification to anything. Why say something lasts as long as it lasts, does not all things last that way? Well no, immortality does not last as long as it lasts, it is immortal. Something at lasts only a year, only lasts a year. Etc.

Why have a adjective that means 'lasts as long as it lasts'.

It is the same difference between in the adjective 'big':
A 'big' basketball or a 'big' revelation.

In the first definition of big is spacial, it does not definitively tell you what size 'big' is. It all depends on the nature of the thing it describes. In this case, the 'big' could be the size of the universe with the mininum size as a regular basketball we just know that it big for a basket ball. Quantitative.

In the second definition of big is abstract idea, it does not have a spacial quality so there is no size to it. In this case, the 'big' depends on the nature of the thing it describes and it is an abstract idea called a revelation. It means it was significant. Qualitative.

Same with aionios. In the quantitative aspect, it does not definitely tell us how long it lasts, it just lasts as long as it lasts. In the qualitative, it is transitionary going from one stage to another.

AIONIOS ZOE =(is)> God Changing Life (ie: Edification, Growth, Reward) =(End Result)> Immortality

AIONIOS KOLASIS =(is)> Punishiment Changing Correction (ie: Punishement, Pruning, Loss) =(End Result)> Immortality.

[Faith]

Hi

It was the word transistionary that did it for me. It is like with my son, I home schooled him. At first I thought he would miss out on the teenager stage of life because he was not in school. But he did not miss that stage. He went through that stage between 18 to about 25. So it is like he went thru Aionios Zoe and Aionios Kolasis (of growth, reward, and correction) but still ends up going to the next step of being an adult. People go through different ages in their life, from preschool to mature adult. Each age can be a different length of time for each person.

I guess it is how an explaination can relate to how something is happening in your life.

Faith

[Craig]

Hi

It was the word transistionary that did it for me. It is like with my son, I home schooled him. At first I thought he would miss out on the teenager stage of life because he was not in school. But he did not miss that stage. He went through that stage between 18 to about 25. So it is like he went thru Aionios Zoe and Aionios Kolasis (of growth, reward, and correction) but still ends up going to the next step of being an adult. People go through different ages in their life, from preschool to mature adult. Each age can be a different length of time for each person.

I guess it is how an explaination can relate to how something is happening in your life.

Faith

Absolutely. :)

We all know that we can have AIONIOS ZOE now, or later. Thus why could we not suffer AIONIOS KOLASIS now or later. The more we delve into what the adjective means, the more we find out that what Jesus said about the self-righteous recieve their reward now in full, while the humble build up a reward in heaven for later. etc. The biggest mistake is to say AIONIOS ZOE (or eternal life) is synomous with 'end' Salvation. All I know, is that when I attain the resurrection, I will be raised to AIONIOS ZOE, not AIONIOS KOLASIS, my trust is and always in Christ Jesus.

Today, my car broke down, I don't have the money to buy a new one, but the Lord will supply all my needs.

[reFORMer]

9) Nor do I see any evidence that God will acquit any fallen angel ever.

Nothing comprehensive, just a reaction:  Unending torture folk (which many of us once were) have such bizarre gaps in understanding, such unreasonable and unbiblical ideas it becomes incredible to me how they continue unchecked by truth except for continual reinforcement from the ones held in honor by those around them in addition to an ongoing ignorance (which, in many I encounter, amounts to stubbornness) about what the Bible does or does not say.

Permeating the numbered assertions at the head of this thread, more or less, is the lack of any recognition of justice.  It is a large topic itself, what so unethical a worldview in the minds of religious people means for their behavior!  Cartoon Christianitys popular teaching simply has no concept of justice, that there is a just recompense for doing right or wrong.  Whoever may have lived the most abominable life, if before death gets a certain idea he believes about Jesus, preferably along with a crisis experience affecting the emotions, won't suffer any consequences from a rotten life, but will receive undeserved heavenly bliss forever.  Whoever lives an upright life, sacrificing to raise good children, by not getting that certain idea to believe about Jesus before death will get no reward but will deservedly (!?) suffer eternal torment.  This should be recognized as what is indeed popularly taught.  It's either infinitude of grace, which involves nothing justly deserved, or it's infinitude of torment, which is impossible for finite, weak-willed, poor of resources, short-lived and mind-darkened man to justly earn.  Did they ever learn such simple arithmetic as 1+1=2, or, 2+2=4?

If I steal an apple God does not require infinite never ending repayment of apples.  That is not justice.  God states clearly what just recompense is in His written word.  To overthrow it and replace it with infinitudes is error very dark indeed.  To dismiss the description of Divine values with a misunderstood word, "legalism," may not be as dark but may prove just as deadly.  God provided a knowledge of right judgments for thieves.  They're to repay double (Ex 22:4) unless what was stolen can't be returned.  Then it's a fourfold repayment (Ex 22:1.)  If a man's means to make a living, the tools of his trade are stolen, like an ox, it is a fivefold restitution.  That is God's sanctions for thieves.  In Numbers 5:6-8 for any sin, it is the principle plus a 5th that is payed to the one wronged besides the ram of atonement.  What is seemingly never considered is, if you commit a sin and pay for it, then that's the end of it.  The popular teaching is any sin is unrepayable and infinite.  Without Divine intervention the result is infinitude of evil (which ignores what that would do to God, but I digress.)  How about the sinner paying for his sin?  And, why pay for something forgiven?  Not just "justice," but the meaning of God is little known.  This leads to what the more important meaning of Christs death is (His becoming Lord of the dead and the end of Adam,) but that's another subject.  It's as if the oft repeated saying in Scripture, even taught by Jesus, that, "[God] will render to every man according to his deeds" has no power in many minds.  Yes, repentance and faith are recompensable deeds, but continuing with this circular argument leads to making the concept of reaping what you sow meaningless again.

Some versions sidestep it by translating, " 'freed' from sin;" But, here is a marvelous statement from above:  "One who dies has been 'justified' from sin." (Rom 6:7)  This is literally what is written.

[Craig]

Good Answer.

[Peacetroll]

It's seems so apparent, I'm amazed at both eternal tormenters and temperol tormenters both!!!

To be thrown in the lake of fire is to be annhilated forever (second death).

Just like when you burn your trash in the 'barrel' of fire!  The trash is gone, burnt ...no more.  In the end there will be no more death (thus the metaphor that death is thrown in the 'lake of fire').

But, who will understand??

1 Corinthians 15:26
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Here we go with a abit of  here a little there a little (Case in point; Some of you will see it!!!):

Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

To be cast into the lake of fire is to experience the second death or total destruction of the soul/entity.  A death that has no power on those in Christ.

Peace in Christ.