Martin Zender has an interesting take on the "Mark". Here it is;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uv2sHvbbx3g
Jock
Never really had much to do with Zender(no reason in particular just didn't) but what he reasons gives one something to think about or should. I quit embracing the "cross" symbol about 35 years ago after reading "Two Babylons" by Alexander Hislop :2c:
Whether or not Jesus died on a stake or a cross doesnt mean much to me as an issue but.... The idea that the mark of the beast is the cross in a world where there are maybe a billion (nominal)Christians versus 6 billion of Hindus, Muslims, Jews, Communists, Secular Humanists, etc. Makes Zenders position that the cross is the mark of the beast highly unlikely. The whole world will be unable to buy or sell without this mark, and those who receive it will worship the image of the beast- whatever that will be.
Zender's own point is that it would be anyone of the three, the number, the name, or the emblem, so where does 666 intersect with the cross? And what is the name of the beast that intersects with the cross? And so everyone who values the cross as an emblem of their faith is to be stricken from the book of life and tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the Lamb(Rev 14)?
I think this is just the pendulum swinging too far. A HUGE issue made of a non-issue, whether Jesus died on a pole or a cross, which is unprovable in either direction, imo, and even if it were provable, it would be murky enough that God would not make such an issue the center of such a huge judgment.
It's possible that the mark of the beast represents the attitude of carnality present in both the mind and works. 6 being the number of man, and man, according to Solomon is himself a beast.
the Beast that was,is not,yet is...speaks of the 'TEMPORALNESS" of the powers of darkness..it will GO INTO PERDITION..speaks
of the time when all wickedness/kingdom of darkness is totally expunged from creation. Judas as a representative of
the son of perdition illustrated the possession of men by satan..and his images entering into and possessing men
Rev 17;8 and John 3;17,5;22 and 8;15 shows this is not a judgement on man..but on the demonic kingdom of darkness
these things concern the powers of darkness/night comes and no man can work. the mystery of iniquity to be revealed shows
that man has been in ignorance of our real enemy..the invisible kingdom of darkness.
there are two kingdoms down here......the little children have flesh and blood[man] like you behold Jesus has..demonic spirits
do not,therefore they lust after man's flesh to work their iniquity and pour out their lusts.
names for images of saatn[corrupt one] are according to the body he possesses. Beast,serpent,son of perdition,Leviathan
Behemoth,Babylon...the powers of darkness possessing such became ..gods of the sea..gods of forests,gods of the underworld
possesing snakes,moles creatures that dwell there.
Bodies of men have become 'strongholds' of evil spirits..who refuse to 'LET MY PEOPLE GO"
we are instructed to not sell oil.{truth].........we recieved freely and give freely..it is a mark of the beast to sell[mammon loving]
NIGHT COMES WHEN NO MAN CAN WORK.....night meaning principalities and powers of darkness.
Ezekiel's temple with images of beast on the temple walls..illustrates our body as the temple and the unclean images/projections
on the walls of our minds done of the kingdom of darkness......
this is all temporal...and such powers to make man bear the image of the corrupt one shall be done away with[go into perdition=
everlasting cutting off of kingdom of darkness..with the subsequent delivery of man from the power of the 'wicked one"
Quote from: eaglesway on March 04, 2015, 06:25:56 PM
Whether or not Jesus died on a stake or a cross doesnt mean much to me as an issue but.... The idea that the mark of the beast is the cross in a world where there are maybe a billion (nominal)Christians versus 6 billion of Hindus, Muslims, Jews, Communists, Secular Humanists, etc. Makes Zenders position that the cross is the mark of the beast highly unlikely. The whole world will be unable to buy or sell without this mark, and those who receive it will worship the image of the beast- whatever that will be.
Zender's own point is that it would be anyone of the three, the number, the name, or the emblem, so where does 666 intersect with the cross? And what is the name of the beast that intersects with the cross? And so everyone who values the cross as an emblem of their faith is to be stricken from the book of life and tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the Lamb(Rev 14)?
I think this is just the pendulum swinging too far. A HUGE issue made of a non-issue, whether Jesus died on a pole or a cross, which is unprovable in either direction, imo, and even if it were provable, it would be murky enough that God would not make such an issue the center of such a huge judgment.
Me personally I can find agreement with the above state, yet the cross that symbolizes Christianity even to those who do not conform to Catholicism, is somewhat of symbol of ones faith. Simply an idol, that one uses for identity and thinking as Zender, would be a mark of identification. For me in a small way unrepentance[not having a change of mind] could possibly be a "mark."
Keep in mind that those who believe the Truth, that the Lord will save all men are already outside of orthodox religion, orthodox religion does use the cross as symbol of identity. 2Co 6:17 wherefore, come ye forth out of the midst of them, and be separated, saith the Lord, and an unclean thing do not touch, and I--I will receive you,
A physical idol or an idol of the heart imo is an unclean thing. :2c:
Quote from: Seth on March 04, 2015, 06:50:32 PM
It's possible that the mark of the beast represents the attitude of carnality present in both the mind and works. 6 being the number of man, and man, according to Solomon is himself a beast.
:thumbsup:
I believe there are many good hearts in denominational churches. I believe there have been many throughout the generations of Christian faith after the early church became hidden in the heavenlies, only to manifest here and there around the world throughout the proceeding generations- serving the Lord according to the limits of their knowledge from a pure heart, and imo they will celibrate in the first or second resurrection- all cobwebs swept away. "Enter the joy of your Lord"
He endured the shame(of the cross) for the joy set before Him.
I think Christians who have seen more, are still somewhat blind to something I consider a fact- that God will not judge by knowledge, but rather by service and love. ""I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was thirsty and you fed me." I think the parable of the good Samaritan is sort of the prime teaching on the judgment of God and how it works in all the scripture.
The Samaritan man may not have known who he worshipped(Jesus told the woman at the well, "You Samaritans do not kno who you worship), but he was justified over and before the Parisee and the Levite, who knew, but did not do. :o)
The benefit of seeing more clearly is to set the creation(people) free from futility, not to judge them, as only God knows the secrets of men's hearts, and according to Romans 2 that is how He judges.
I believe for some the cross is an idol. I think for some it is simply a contact point for their love of Christ, who was crucified for them, and knowing what it actually looked like is immaterial. :o)
he who loves has been born of God. Interesting how God said to Israel...I will make you jealous by a people without knowledge.......
'If I be lifted up,I shall draw all men unto me"
Quote from: eaglesway on March 04, 2015, 08:08:41 PM
I believe for some the cross is an idol. I think for some it is simply a contact point for their love of Christ, who was crucified for them, and knowing what it actually looked like is immaterial. :o)
I agree. An idol is whatever one worships above God. The cross can be an idol but it can also be a remembrance of his sacrifice. It depends on the person. It can become legalism to set a rule that the cross is an idol for everyone because it removes the necessity for each person to analyze their own intent. A stick with a traverse bar is nothing of itself. What counts is what you bring to it of your heart. My opinion.
I can see why someone would abstain from association with a symbol of false doctrine, but I don't think that makes it an idol for everyone. I would have no problem putting a cross as a symbol for his sacrifice on my website as long as I am talking about what it truly accomplishes.
I think it's wrong to accuse people of worshipping something without factoring in the intent of the heart. An idol is nothing of itself.
This is an article with more complete information than I was able to ascertain years ago when I put all the canned goods on the table, and broke the code myself:
http://www.av1611.org/666/barcode.html
It is very possible that the federal tax number which you must have to buy and sell in the commercial sphere of things, is the Mark.
There were thousands of years where no one had the internet to tell them whether it might be a pole or a cross. ;o)
Quote from: eaglesway on March 04, 2015, 08:31:43 PM
There were thousands of years where no one had the internet to tell them whether it might be a pole or a cross. ;o)
I don't think the www decides...
consider Zechariah ch 13 cleansing from sin. the temple..oneness with God...two thirds of 0ne = 666 the third[holy of Holies/spirit]
I will bring into the fire...spirit returns unto God
Quote from: Lazarus Short on March 04, 2015, 08:34:11 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on March 04, 2015, 08:31:43 PM
There were thousands of years where no one had the internet to tell them whether it might be a pole or a cross. ;o)
I don't think the www decides...
Exactly
Where does he get the idea that everything has a barcode? Fruit doesn't. When I buy fruit, it gets weighed, not scanned. Also, what about services? People don't scan a barcode to hire a maid or get a massage.
Seth
The grocery chains are wrapping fruit and veg with seran wrap and they all have a bar code
Yeah but the Bible says that the mark will be not on the object by on the hand and forehead. The actual fruit doesn't have the mark on it. It doesn't say anything in Revelation 13 about the actual products having the mark. That's what I never understood about the barcode theory.
Seth
I'm not worried about taking the mark of the beast off a cabbage!
:Peace2: :Peace2:
Jock
Yeah.... :laughing7:
I think everything we need to know pertaining to life and godliness is already explained in plain language by the apostles. Believe in Jesus and love your neighbor. I think if you do that, God is pleased, I don't think we need to be looking around for modern technology to nab us in a technicality. You believed in Jesus and loved your neighbor, but you embraced digital technology? You're fired! I don't think it's like that. Believe in Jesus, love your neighbor, and God is pleased. He says so in his book.
Jesus didn't die to save man from technology. He came to save us from sin, and sin is defined clearly in the Bible. Technology is not lawlessness. In fact it can be used to help people who couldn't be helped before. That's why I believe the number of the beast is an indication of the inward part that resists those two commandments and is represented in Revelation as an outward mark, such as many things in Revelation I believe use outward symbols to express inward truths.
Matt 6;25-34 for those who have anxious thoughts about their physical needs[and worrying needlessly over material things imo and
mark of beast etc.]
GOD WILLING James 4;13 Now Listen..you who say..'Today or tomorrow we will go this or that city,spend a year there,
carry on buisiness,and make money. Why,you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? It is a mist
that appears for a little while then vanishes. You ought to say....IF IT IS THE LORD'S WILL WE WILL LIVE AND DO THIS OR
THAT. AS IT IS YOU BOAST AND BRAG...............BOASTING ABOUT TOMORROW........
Brother's do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it.
..................beware doing this....consigning your fellow man to LOF judgement...you might find yourself a slanderer of celestial beings.
1 Cor 4
5Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart. At that time each will receive their praise from God. 6Now, brothers and sisters, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written." Then you will not be puffed up in being a follower of one of us over against the other.
Now, if someone is going to say that someone else has accepted the mark of the beast by either having a cross, or embracing digital technology, I'd like to know, where is that written? Does Revelation say "the mark of the beast is the cross?" or, "the mark of the beast is a digital technology innovation?"
If not, then how can you determine the motives of the heart and go beyond what is written to judge your brothers by claiming that these personal theories condemn them? Zender has a theory. That's all it is. It's not WRITTEN, so he cannot use his theory to draw a conclusion on the relationship between those people and Christ. My personal opinion.
Revelation provides enough mystery in its symbolism to invite others to make theories, and then to use those theories to make condemning remarks about other people. I think it's a test. That's why I cannot stand when people surmise that Obama is the anti-Christ. Obama is a real person, not a theory, and same with any other public figure. I just get so annoyed with this kind of accusatory stuff.
Christians do this all the time, sitting back in their armchairs at home wondering who has the mark of the beast, and who is the anti Christ, but they all share the same characteristic: it's never THEM. It's always someone else, never them. And yet Paul said for all the good he did, he didn't even know if it was from a clean motive, even though he had a clean conscience. He didn't even judge himself much less someone else, and certainly not on the theories of others.
:thumbsup: Seth. Personally I believe Jesus Christ takes away all the sin of the people. And that this will be testified to,in due time...
by the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost....and even though this same testimony of the two wittnesses[word of God/Holy spirit].
.lie as dead in the street
3 days,when the 'beast' kills them...that the spirit of God will enter the wittness'es testimony and cause them to stand on their feet
and the upward call shall be heard.............first resurrection...
Here is the manner in which I understand Jesus taking away sin:
1 John 3
4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
To me, that's what it's all about. Salvation from sin, from whatever lacks in faith and love.
Happy and Holy are those who partake of the first resurrection! These are all men delivered from wickedness..each in their own order
they are former humans that have put on immortality..and God gives them life eternal! they are ALL raised up and changed into
the image of Jesus Christ..they are just like HIM!!! they see him face to face.....
the secound resurrection is the beast that was,is not, yet is and shall go off into perdition[satan released to decieve..to fight
against the camp of the Holy city[men still in flesh temporally] Satan's release and doom.
satan desired to place his throne above the stars of God[they that lead the many to righteousness shall be as the stars] the dragon
overcome the saints[churches] casting them to the ground and trampling[beast killed wittness of Jesus,God,Holy spirit that
God has forgiven man.].and is triumphing in mercy over judgement in man] and instead of eternally destroying man; is saving him and
making him over in the image of His son. what satan thinks he possessed[man in corrupt image],shall be taken away from him.
the beast is the twice dead...without fruit..for this is ALL THE FRUIT WHEN HE TAKES AWAY ALL THEIR SINS
Quote from: Seth on March 04, 2015, 08:54:24 PM
Yeah but the Bible says that the mark will be not on the object by on the hand and forehead. The actual fruit doesn't have the mark on it. It doesn't say anything in Revelation 13 about the actual products having the mark. That's what I never understood about the barcode theory.
I've been reading that there is already an implant being used that scans barcodes for medical and security purposes. There is a bar code on drivers licenses and license plates, and I have been reading about a system where there is one number for every person including telephone, soc security, financial info etc.. At some point this may all come together with a transaction having spiritual consequences. I think it is worth watching.
I think the beast is a spiritual image but these spiriual images often find a prime manifestation in the earth in history.
Quote from: eaglesway on March 04, 2015, 11:14:29 PM
Quote from: Seth on March 04, 2015, 08:54:24 PM
Yeah but the Bible says that the mark will be not on the object by on the hand and forehead. The actual fruit doesn't have the mark on it. It doesn't say anything in Revelation 13 about the actual products having the mark. That's what I never understood about the barcode theory.
I've been reading that there is already an implant being used that scans barcodes for medical and security purposes. There is a bar code on drivers licenses and license plates, and I have been reading about a system where there is one number for every person including telephone, soc security, financial info etc.. At some point this may all come together with a transaction having spiritual consequences. I think it is worth watching.
I think the beast is a spiritual image but these spiriual images often find a prime manifestation in the earth in history.
It might, but unless it's written, nobody can judge it. Not even having a barcode on your forehead would make one lawless in itself. Only if it affects faith and love can it be lawlessness. IMHO, and at that point the barcode itself isn't to blame, but the heart of man. I think God judges based on what proceeds from the heart.
Paul says that those who are doing the work of the Lord cannot be judged as to their motives. To say that someone who believes in Jesus and loves his neighbor has an implant for medical reasons has accepted the mark of the beast (not that you are saying that, but some might) now has the impossible task of proving that through the unchanging scripture, to avoid going above what is written. What is written? How do we not go above it? No matter what happens with technology, only sin is condemned by the Bible, and I'm not sure how using implants and barcodes could be shown to be sinful of themselves.
I agree with that entirely. As I said, it would have to be combined in the form of leverage with a spiritual transaction, such as allegiance to an unholy spirit. Similar to the declaring of the Ceasars as gods and forcing people to acknowledge it, or not, such as during certain periods during the Roman Empire- but probably more sophisticated than that. It is certainly as possible as any other theory, imo. The inclusion of the idea of not being able to buy or sell without it gives credibility to the concept for me- as we are steadily progressing in that direction. The guise is to prevent terrorism and collect taxes and prevent black markets, but once in place it could be subverted for any purpose.
This is why I think we are still quite some distance from the end of the age, but who knows, these control mechanisms are developing exponentially for sure.
I propose that an imminent collapse of the present system, the foundations of which are being undercut by corruption, will usher in a transition to a much more oppressive system than anything we now see, is very possible, even likely.
Also, I did not say that anyone who accepted an implant would be receiving the mark of the beast, if you re-read my post, I said that it is a possibility that uch a systemm could be subverted for control at some point, and an unholy pledge of some type could be required. I also said that I see this as a "possible", and I think reasonable, thing to watch.
For something like this to occur, it would obviously be presented as benign.
Quote from: eaglesway on March 04, 2015, 11:47:34 PM
I agree with that entirely. As I said, it would have to be combined in the form of leverage with a spiritual transaction, such as allegiance to an unholy spirit. Similar to the declaring of the Ceasars as gods and forcing people to acknowledge it, or not, such as during certain periods during the Roman Empire- but probably more sophisticated than that. It is certainly as possible as any other theory, imo. The inclusion of the idea of not being able to buy or sell without it gives credibility to the concept for me- as we are steadily progressing in that direction. The guise is to prevent terrorism and collect taxes and prevent black markets, but once in place it could be subverted for any purpose.
This is why I think we are still quite some distance from the end of the age, but who knows, these control mechanisms are developing exponentially for sure.
I propose that an imminent collapse of the present system, the foundations of which are being undercut by corruption, will usher in a transition to a much more oppressive system than anything we now see, is very possible, even likely.
Also, I did not say that anyone who accepted an implant would be receiving the mark of the beast, if you re-read my post, I said that it is a possibility that uch a systemm could be subverted for control at some point, and an unholy pledge of some type could be required. I also said that I see this as a "possible", and I think reasonable, thing to watch.
For something like this to occur, it would obviously be presented as benign.
I agree. That's why we must be watchful of ourselves. :thumbsup:
What if the dollar crashes? Being the world's de facto currency all fiat currency would fall. What about just chipping everyone? Every retail and commercial outlet would have a scanner, even gas stations, barber shops. God's people would have to go to a barter system and go out hunting to feed the family.
Just some thoughts
:Peace2:
Jock.
It seems to me that if the entire economy crashed, there wouldn't be money to chip everyone in the first place.
That's why they have already begun
Right, but if currency itself is useless after the dollar bombs ushering in a post apocalyptic era, what would be the use of chips? Currency would be useless anyway.
Forced implantation of chips would require pretty much a Totalitarian government. Nobody is getting that passed through Congress any time soon, and especially not the Supreme Court. So, my question is, if someone is forced to accept a chip and they don't have the strength to fight back, how would any Christian be able to tell that person he/she has accepted the "mark of the beast" without relying purely on personal theory about what the Bible implies, rather than what is literally written there?
Seth,
First of all, I don't think that governments would exist at least in their present form. I don't trust elected politicians anyway. All the power would come from Lucifer and his front man. It seems that one can deny the chip but what about old people or the disabled or mentally ill? People will cry out for order and anything the powers that be throw at them in a tense nerve jangling scenario on the streets under martial law. It would be as you say "a totalitarian government". As with Hitler, he just got rid of the "useless people" as they were called; undermunshen (under people) But, none of that could happen in America, right? We are definitely marching in that direction.
Jock
Regardless of whatever the mark of the beast is, one must also worship his image to be in danger of the lake of fire. Being implanted with a chip isn't enough, even if in fact that is what the mark is. This still all just theory. What can be troublesome is when/if folks use theories to mark and classify others as a "them" category based on fitting their personal ideas of what accepting the mark means. Such fears I believe bring about a paranoia about all manner of thing which I think is unhealthy and unnecessary.
Put a totem pole in my front yard and a smiling Buddha in my back yard
and give me the mark of the beast .
None of that changes the fact that Jesus the son of God died for our sins all sins.
If I see my neighbour starving and I could get food for them I would.
I know that there is no power greater than Love with or without a mark.
I agree with Seth.
Feed my sheep.
It wouldnt have to be forced.(If it happens, just speculating on the logic of it here). It isnt being forced now, in the many places where it is already occuring. Perhaps you will simply have the option to not participate in the economy. Totally up to you. ;o)
America is already becoming a totalitarian society. Democracy and representative government in this country is as big a myth as communism was in the USSSR. "Strengthen the things that remain and are about to fall" definitely applies, so even tho there is no logical process that says it would have to be forced- it could be a part of the great delusion of the last days and seduced (Seducers and deceivers will wax worse and worse), or at some point, some major upheaval in our nation, which is already teetering on the edge of a cultural and economic implosion, could give way to a much more openly totalitarian(implemented through national bureaucracy) state.
Very likely in my opinion.
But I agree with Seth on the issue of how destructive it can be when people start attaching "the mark" to things like denominational church attendence, or worshipping on Sunday, or being a Catholic, etc, etc, etc.
As yet, it is all theory and speculation...... but it is an interesting discussion, it is in the word of God and it can also be counterproductive to criticize someone for discussing it. Why not look into these things, seeking wisdom form the spirit of God and the relative scriptures- and just maintain a light handed, theoretcial attitude towards it. :o)
Worshiping the image G1504 eikōn a likeness, that is, (literally) statue, profile, or (figuratively) representation, resemblance
Joh 15:19 If you were of the world, the world would be fond of its own. Now, seeing that you are not of the world, but I choose you out of the world, therefore the world is hating you."
Ecc 3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
imo simply should the Spirit not be changing you in to the sons of God, the beast is what you will represent and what you will worship. :2c:
Everyone likes to think that if they knew what the mark of the beast
was they would not take it (brave)
They do believe that others (weaker) will take it.
They the brave will gather likeminded people around them creating a bond.
Some of those (boasters) will be the first to line up and denounce Christ.
Some of the early believers where led to deaths .
they refused to denounce Christ (filled with the Spirit)
Unless one is led by the Holy Spirit.
Love concurs all fears .
Quote from: micah7:9 on March 06, 2015, 10:27:55 PM
Worshiping the image G1504 eikōn a likeness, that is, (literally) statue, profile, or (figuratively) representation, resemblance
Joh 15:19 If you were of the world, the world would be fond of its own. Now, seeing that you are not of the world, but I choose you out of the world, therefore the world is hating you."
Ecc 3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
imo simply should the Spirit not be changing you in to the sons of God, the beast is what you will represent and what you will worship. :2c:
Micah I totally agree with that. I believe the pillars of the New Covenant are faith and love (as born of the Spirit), and if we continue in those things we can be at peace and live without fear, because I don't believe the Lord would ever be angry with those who honestly pursue love and humility.
Quote from: dajomaco on March 06, 2015, 10:31:30 PM
Everyone likes to think that if they knew what the mark of the beast
was they would not take it (brave)
They do believe that others (weaker) will take it.
They the brave will gather likeminded people around them creating a bond.
Some of those (boasters) will be the first to line up and denounce Christ.
Some of the early believers where led to deaths .
they refused to denounce Christ (filled with the Spirit)
Unless one is led by the Holy Spirit.
Love concurs all fears .
Right exactly. Nobody ever says, "Oh look at that, I HAVE the mark of beast myself." It's always "I'm Protestant, Catholics have the mark of the beast." or, "I believe in Saturday worship, so Sabbath worshippers have the mark of the beast." My personal opinion: according to Solomon, if want to have a look at a beast, have a look in the mirror. Tame that beast first before looking for marks on other people's heads.
The same way the Jews would boast about being circumcised and thus belonging to God.
Whether you are circumcised or not has no relevance.
Not taking the mark can be a boast that they belong to God because they did not take the mark.
The requirements for salvation are not Jesus plus circumcision.
:thumbsup:
Jesus plus heart circumcision. And what man can see the heart?
Quote from: Seth on March 06, 2015, 10:05:12 PM
Regardless of whatever the mark of the beast is, one must also worship his image to be in danger of the lake of fire. Being implanted with a chip isn't enough, even if in fact that is what the mark is. This still all just theory. What can be troublesome is when/if folks use theories to mark and classify others as a "them" category based on fitting their personal ideas of what accepting the mark means. Such fears I believe bring about a paranoia about all manner of thing which I think is unhealthy and unnecessary.
Oh boy I sure agree with that! I hate all such accusations (beating each other, of the master's household as our Lord 'delays'? Mt 24)
Quote from: eaglesway on March 06, 2015, 10:20:38 PM
But I agree with Seth on the issue of how destructive it can be when people start attaching "the mark" to things like denominational church attendence, or worshipping on Sunday, or being a Catholic, etc, etc, etc.
As yet, it is all theory and speculation...... but it is an interesting discussion, it is in the word of God and it can also be counterproductive to criticize someone for discussing it. Why not look into these things, seeking wisdom form the spirit of God and the relative scriptures- and just maintain a light handed, theoretcial attitude towards it. :o)
:iagree: :iagree:
Bow down and do one act of worship and all these kingdoms of the earth[world] will be yours.....of what value is it for a man to
gain the whole world but lose his soul?[satan's doom]
King Nebuchadnezzer's image=King of Babylon
no other name by which we may be saved[Jesus Christ]
Jezebel=Babylon Ahab=Satan, Naboth's vineyard coveted= foolishness of gospel preached/Lord's vineyard/owner's son killed
he who does not have,even what he thinks he possesses will be taken away from him[King of Babylon given mind of beast
for 7 years,until his right mind given him,then he confessed it is God who rules/not man...and He gives it unto whom He desires
IF THEY HAD KNOWN HE WAS THE KING OF GLORY THEY WOULD NOT HAVE CRUCIFIED HIM.....if they had known it was
the mark of the beast..they would not have taken it=ignorance..man without understanding...Father forgive them..they know
NOT WHAT THEY DO
....just some ponderings.....
For I could almost wish to be cursed and cut off from the Messiah for the benefit of my brothers, my own flesh and blood.
Love thy neighbors
Daniel 12:11-12Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
11 "and from the time of the turning aside of the perpetual (always occurring?) "[sacrifice]" (prayers?) "and to the giving out of the desolating abomination, [are] days a thousand, two hundred, and ninety.
12 O the blessedness of him who is waiting earnestly, and doth come to the days, a thousand, three hundred, thirty and five."
the giving out of the desolating abomination..? the cannot buy or sell apparatus ('mark') whatever it is?
- about three years and seven months after a perpetual (always occurring, (or whatever it is) is taken away (mt 24:1,2?) - 3 years and 7 months later the desecrating abomination is given out (set up, KJ, etc) says.
Happy the one who waits and comes to day 1335 / 45 days later.
-------------------------------------
New King James Version (NKJV)
11 "And from the time that the daily sacrifice" (prayers? or a place of, in Israel?) "is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days."
1,335
-1,290
--------
45 (to me seems to be saying, 45 days of what? til when?)
:laughing7: hope this made a little bit of sense..
Here, I'll throw this into the mix
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrITx7_tTT0
Nitey nite
Jock
I am always amazed how the Bible supposedly plays no part in government and politics, and I just wonder where government and politics would have come up with the "idea" of these little chips should the Bible not spoke of the "MARK" But that is just my little amazed opinion :dsunny: He IS Risen! :HeartThrob:
..and they (chips or whatnot) are some of the modern miracles and wonders which (have and will) so amaze the world.. i.e done by a white frocked magician (and great delusion, which changed western civilization and which began as a man/false prophet/teacher/teaching/prophecy for the world, denying YHVH, and instead causing man to once again look to the stars.. and since they so falsely claim to have proven 'God is dead' man will make man/government to be god..)
Quote from: micah7:9 on March 06, 2015, 10:27:55 PM
Worshiping the image G1504 eikōn a likeness, that is, (literally) statue, profile, or (figuratively) representation, resemblance
No doubt that your lexicon gives the correct translation.
But as you very well know it may not have any relevance at all.
If you would do similar look-ups with Jesus you would see yourself looking up for example lamb. Despite the perfect translation: Jesus wasn't an animal. It's a highly symbolic description.
So.... while looking a bit deeper into things using a lexicon is most certainly a good thing to do, we should be aware that there are lots of things that are symbolic. And those things make the lexicons virtually useless.
Jesus is the image of God, we are told in several places. So the image of the beast does not necessarily mean a physical icon of any kind- but then it could be a spiritual thing manifesting through a physical thing- a person, or a group of people. Any of these conjectures could be right in some measure.
Given the prohibition against graven images, and the propensity for man to always make gods in images of his own likeness or that of or mythical creatures, animals or just the works of hs own hands- It would not surprise me at all to see men worshipping an actual anti-christ figure, around whom a huge complex spiritual vortex of aionian ungodliness(Babylon) swirls and spins chaos and oppression, as the end of the age approaches.
Just as men worshipped Ceasars and Hitler and the North Korean supreme leaders, and gurus and Pharoahs on and on from the beginning until now. I mean its just something we do as a race. Its in our nature, until we are redeemed.
Quote from: marie glen on March 07, 2015, 12:54:13 AM
..and they (chips or whatnot) are some of the modern miracles and wonders
Dunno, but that high tech stuff is some sort of red flag.
The NT very often references to OT verses/events. The NT references to ancient customs often predating Jesus by quite a while. The NT uses language that was understood by the common man (wheat, fish, shepherds, etc)
I'm not saying the mark can't be a high tech chip, I'm saying that the people during the time of writing and long before that already knew the meaning of 'a mark'. And that is what I'm missing in many/all discussions/studies/websites/books on the topic of 'the mark' none seem to bother figuring out how 'the mark' was understood, in say, 100 BC.
The chip is just one high tech example. For many whole Revelation is an high tech book. For example just read some opinions about how the moon and sun can be darkened. Sites filled with stuff about mysterious planets, calculations of trajectories of meteorites etc. Far from common ancient language.
God is certainly smart enough to include high tech prophesies but how could it also be understood 2000 years ago? This one is easier, defined in the Bible but often overlooked. The sun is seen as God's wisdom/love/power/morality and similar things. The lesser light, called the moon, was seen as reflecting things of the sun. And that reflection was symbolised the Law.... So while God is fully capable to 'encode' high tech stuff in ancient language the ancient interpretation is much more in line with what the OT was all about and what Jesus and the 12 often taught about. A darkened moon was (very likely) simply understood as a lawlessness. Rejection of God's laws. The moon was also seen as a gigantic clock that signaled certain festivals which itself tell us stuff about God's big plan. Those festivals are part of the Law too. They are no longer celebrated on time, correctly or even not at all.
That my all look a bit off-topic but I'm just trying to say we might have to go back to the roots and find the "the mark" in ancient understanding instead of in space age high tech explanations like micro chips and bar codes.
:2c:
Great stuff WhiteWings!
Personally I am of the thought that Revelation is a spiritual book, relaying spiritual realities in symbolic, spiritual terms to ALL spiritual people from the day it was written till now. I also believe it is what it says it is - the revelation, revealing, disclosing, and uncovering of Jesus Christ. When it supposedly becomes about literal Russia, China, bar codes, world leaders, politics and wars, it loses all relevance for me. I like what WhiteWings said about seeing things through an early believers eyes, as they would not have been thinking in terms of the things previously mentioned.
With regards to this mark, how can it be literal and defile a man? Did not Christ Himself say that only what comes OUT of a man defiles a man? So then why are we waiting for an external mark to defile us? Also, if the mark is literal, why is not the seal of God taken as literal too? Boy, that would make it a lot simpler - servants of the beast with 666 on their foreheads, while the servants of God have a glowing, literal seal emanating from their noggin! :Chinscratch:
This is not meant as disrespectful to anyone with a literal viewpoint of the mark - and I can see what Eaglesway is saying about there often being a literal manifestation of spiritual realities, so it is not to rule anything out. My main concern is debate over literal marks, beasts and such things often takes the focus completely away from the focus of the book itself, which is the unfolding revelation of Jesus Christ Himself. :dsunny:
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 07, 2015, 12:54:42 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on March 06, 2015, 10:27:55 PM
Worshiping the image G1504 eikōn a likeness, that is, (literally) statue, profile, or (figuratively) representation, resemblance
No doubt that your lexicon gives the correct translation.
But as you very well know it may not have any relevance at all.
If you would do similar look-ups with Jesus you would see yourself looking up for example lamb. Despite the perfect translation: Jesus wasn't an animal. It's a highly symbolic description.
So.... while looking a bit deeper into things using a lexicon is most certainly a good thing to do, we should be aware that there are lots of things that are symbolic. And those things make the lexicons virtually useless.
I may have mis represented what I meant. Not what we will look like but what is inside, how one thinks, ones carnality, ones hunger.My point was symbolic. :2c: :2c:
I use to think that the image of the beast was a cloned individual because it says that this image was given life and did speak. Sounds like it was made.
CHB
Now thats scary.
Lots of great posts here!
Eaglesway, this IS being forced in India. Absolutely every single man, woman and child has been scanned with a full biometric protocol. India, whew, that's a lotta people. Those poor folks are under the scrutiny of a government data base. The RFID chip and the implementation of it is buried down deep in Obamacare.
There is also nano technology and the sinister uses and potential of that.
And the hits just keep on comin!
Jock.
I believe that the Lord will keep us through any and all of it, even if we lose our heads! You know, Islam does seem to have a lot of the criteria?
Here is an article by Dr. Ernest Martin about the mark and image of the beast. I don't know if this is right, or if it all applies today?
http://www.askelm.com/essentials/ess030.htm
CHB
Thanks CHB, I'll check that out.
here's one for you
http://polidics.com/news/another-hidden-secret-in-obamacare-rfid-chip-implants.html
...the image speak..three unclean inspired expressions..........get behind me satan,for you have in mind the things of men...
not God.... :dontknow:
I agree Sheila, GO sister!
here's another link
http://ezinearticles.com/?The-Good,-The-Bad,-and-The-Ugly-About-Nanotechnology&id=3685935
CHB that article link..was something else!
CHB
I just now finished that piece and it was quite an eye opener to say the least. This is obviously a man who has a good understanding of the spirituals and I enjoyed the read.
A couple of areas seemed a bit patchy but I won't go into that. Thanks for posting that mate :thumbsup:
Shalom
Jock.
Me thinks we links to much :2c:
Quote from: micah7:9 on March 08, 2015, 06:10:09 PM
Me thinks we links to much :2c:
FROM THE CANDLESTICK TO THE THRONE
Part 158
THE BEAST OUT OF THE EARTH
(continued)
https://www.godfire.net/eby/rev-158.html
I think that J P Eby gets close to a teaching I heard decades ago about 666
6 is the number of man. 3 is the number of perfection.
666=perfect imperfection.
Nothing more and nothing less.
It is not an actual mark, it is a spiritual reality, past, present, and future.
.
Luk 1:51 He hath shewed strength with his arm; he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts. G1271 deep thought, properly the faculty (mind or its disposition), by implication its exercise: - imagination, mind, understanding.
Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. H3336 a form; figuratively conception (that is, purpose): - frame, thing framed, imagination, mind, work .
Imo, The Lord placed the word "mark" in Holy Writ so that humanity would exercise it's intellect to comprehend the variety of what" the mark" could be, as our carnal mind searches it's meaning, and not see that the "mark" is humanity's nature. What else could represent an acceptance of the "freedom" one would bow to and worship, to consider survival in the midst of adversity?
Gen 4:15 And saying to him is Yahweh Elohim, "Not so. Anyone killing Cain, sevenfold shall it be avenged. "And placing is Yahweh Elohim a sign for Cain, to avoid anyone finding him smiting him.
Gen 4:16 And Cain goeth out from before Jehovah, and dwelleth in the land, moving about east of Eden;
Cain was free to move about.
Rev 13:17 and that no one may be able to buy or sell except the one having the emblem of the wild beast, or its name, or the number of its name."
Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has a mind calculate the number of the wild beast, for it is the number of mankind, and its number is six hundred sixty-six." :2c:
I make no claim of understanding all this, because I don't, so I am open to any point of view on the subject, and have considered every thing I read.
If it seems I am resisting something, I am only testing it by the scriptures.
One thing I think has to be taken into consideration is the previous treatment of images in the scripture. And all the scriptures relating to the topic, so, if all we had to look at was Rev 13:17 & 18, it could lead to a certain interpretation.
But there are a lot of verses concerning both the spirit of anti-christ, and a potential individual manifestation of it in the last days.
Words of Daniel, Jesus, John, Paul etc.
Also, there are beasts in prophecies from Ezekiel, Daniel, others- they are ALWAYS empires. I dont think anyone can show me a single example where they are not(but feel free to, maybe I am wrong :). Also the statue(image) from Daniel. Head of Gold(Babylon) neck of silver(Media-Persia) etc. For that reason I think the two beasts of Rev 13 are also likely empires, with the dragon as perhaps a spiritual principality reigning over them.
Feet like a leapard(Germany?), mouth like a lion(UK?), body like a bear(Russia?), If this is an empire still to come it could be, a Euro/Russian combination. And another beast coming after like a Lamb with two horns out of it? I think this is very possible.
The 666 thing is only one element of the whole prophetic rendering out of all these verses I have refferred to, so whatever it is, in my opinion it is only one aspect of the whole picture.
Sometimes we look at one aspect and are correct in interpreting it but in error by interpreting it as defining the whole picture, and eliminating other valid images in the prohetic decoupage, which is fairly extensive in the prophetic writings about the end of the age.
I don't put my foot down on something unless I feel it satisfies all the scriptures relating to it.
:2c:
Just throwing this into the mix, that empires in the OT could represent sin, or at least spiritual rulership. For example, the promised land in the Book of Hebrews correlates with the peace of God, his rest. Back then, Israel was delivered from Egypt into the promised land. Egypt seems to me to be an excellent representation of what "carnal sold into sin" is, in contrast to the promised land. I could also see that in how Revelation uses Babylon and correlates it to wine that makes men drunk and in madness.
Quote from: eaglesway on March 09, 2015, 12:17:19 AM
And another beast coming after like a Lamb with two horns out of it? I think this is very possible.
To some, the two-horned lamb-like beast is the bison, and therefore represents the USA.
Quote from: Seth on March 09, 2015, 03:05:33 AM
Just throwing this into the mix, that empires in the OT could represent sin, or at least spiritual rulership. For example, the promised land in the Book of Hebrews correlates with the peace of God, his rest. Back then, Israel was delivered from Egypt into the promised land. Egypt seems to me to be an excellent representation of what "carnal sold into sin" is, in contrast to the promised land. I could also see that in how Revelation uses Babylon and correlates it to wine that makes men drunk and in madness.
Excellent points Seth. I have always seen Babylon as the bondage of religion that is entered into some time after release from the first bondage of Egypt/sin/the world. Babylon must have been a beautiful place, and it is interesting that only a remnant had a heart to go back and rebuild the gates of Jerusalem and the Temple of God.
I definitely think Babylon, the great city, mystery Egypt and Sodom, wherein our Lord was crucified- represents an overall principle of the world system and the sinfulness in it, as well as "the god of this world, the spirirt that is now working in the sons of disobedience" and the principalities and powers, "rulers of the hosts of wickedness in the heavenly realms".
Revelation 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Throughout the age, however that spiritual principle has manifested in earthly kingdoms, and they are also represented in the scriptures prophetically, which is why I think all of these aspects are a part of the picture, none to the exclusion of the other, and all of these aspects are elements of the whole and are incorporated in prophecy together both part and parcel.
The earthly empires are manifestations of heavenly empires, such as in Daniel, the prince(principality) of Persia vs Michael, the prince of Israel. The similarity, for instance when the Assyrians surrounded Jerusalem under Hezekiah, and sought to "wear out the saints"(with seige) and spoke blasphemies against God(Rabshekeh) - with the prophecy Paul made about the one who exalts himself against God and every so-called god-this conflict has replayed itself in earthly kingdoms from Babel, through all the earthly empires of Daniels statue with the head of gold, until the "little stone" of the kingdom strikes the feet of clay and iron and shatters the cycle once and for all- which is still in process and awaiting completion at the end of this age.
Quote from: eaglesway on March 09, 2015, 07:04:59 AM
I definitely think Babylon, the great city, mystery Egypt and Sodom, wherein our Lord was crucified- represents an overall principle of the world system and the sinfulness in it, as well as "the god of this world, the spirirt that is now working in the sons of disobedience" and the principalities and powers, "rulers of the hosts of wickedness in the heavenly realms".
Revelation 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Throughout the age, however that spiritual principle has manifested in earthly kingdoms, and they are also represented in the scriptures prophetically, which is why I think all of these aspects are a part of the picture, none to the exclusion of the other, and all of these aspects are elements of the whole and are incorporated in prophecy together both part and parcel.
The earthly empires are manifestations of heavenly empires, such as in Daniel, the prince(principality) of Persia vs Michael, the prince of Israel. The similarity, for instance when the Assyrians surrounded Jerusalem under Hezekiah, and sought to "wear out the saints"(with seige) and spoke blasphemies against God(Rabshekeh) - with the prophecy Paul made about the one who exalts himself against God and every so-called god-this conflict has replayed itself in earthly kingdoms from Babel, through all the earthly empires of Daniels statue with the head of gold, until the "little stone" of the kingdom strikes the feet of clay and iron and shatters the cycle once and for all- which is still in process and awaiting completion at the end of this age.
..that was very well said! and I totally agree ....And to my understanding it's a war that has been going on since that first act of sedition and trickery in Eden..
Which I think of as especially summed up in the Bk of Revelation, Jerusalem as God's city, and Babylon, imo, is man's (w/o God) empire $ity.. and is also Satan's city.. which babels on and on.. a confusion of voices/untruth, the psyce/forehead being "the great"/mystery babylon/all untruth "responsible for all slain upon the earth"
Quote from: eaglesway on March 09, 2015, 12:17:19 AM
Also, there are beasts in prophecies from Ezekiel, Daniel, others- they are ALWAYS empires. I dont think anyone can show me a single example where they are not(but feel free to, maybe I am wrong :). Also the statue(image) from Daniel. Head of Gold(Babylon) neck of silver(Media-Persia) etc. For that reason I think the two beasts of Rev 13 are also likely empires, with the dragon as perhaps a spiritual principality reigning over them.
..it's interesting to me how the beast of rev 13:1-10 cross references with the beast, "unlike the others" in Daniel chapter 7, both have ten horns, but Daniels' description adds teeth of iron and claws of brass (or bronze) and in Daniel's interpretation of the dream statue of Dan chapter 2, most Bible commentaries agree the iron in the statue is Rome and the brass/bronze is Greece.. ("iron teeth / columns of iron? "what the iron doesn't break, the bronze will scatter" Greek human secular?)
Everyone looks for a revived roman empire (and are stuck in yesteryear) but i can't help remembering being taught in school how western civilization was built on the "Roman/Graeco" foundation. So i find myself thinking of the world empire of 'last days' as being grounded or coming from western civilization and I see in the world the u.n which once was and then wasn't but expired (because it's head or origin of it, the u.s. didn't sign on after all, but after the fire of ww2 the world was convinced to rebuild it - all i believe in Rev chapter 13.
..an image to the (world empire) beast, I think of as a panel (of ten divisions) but of course it could be an image of that.. brought to life, or "given breath", I think of as (finally) the world body given authority.. when the 2nd one of the chapter, steps into the main seat of it.. its head now in place..
it's my belief the main revealing light on the chapter is verse 13, which i believe pinpoints an office, not a person, per se, and I believe 13:13 WAS A HUGE EVENT OF THE PAST -oops caps, but i think I'll leave them..
Quote from: eaglesway on March 09, 2015, 12:17:19 AM
Feet like a leapard(Germany?), mouth like a lion(UK?), body like a bear(Russia?), If this is an empire still to come it could be, a Euro/Russian combination. And another beast coming after like a Lamb with two horns out of it? I think this is very possible.
..there was something about the mouth of a lion (U.K?) i recently came across or was pondering.. :Chinscratch: ..oh yes, was Charles Darwin from England? I've long felt the "mouth" of last days "speaking great things" is evolution (as to origins) which declares man the higher power/god!
But :dontknow: so many think both beasts of rev 13 are the same, and is also the false prophet(teacher/teaching?) and also think babylon the great is the same, although, thankfully, many new theories about Bible prophecy have evolved and moved on from thinking all the revelation characters are the RCC and/ or the pope.. stuck in yesteryear they were, and some still are.. no offense to anyone! :Peace2:
...to me the mark, what ever it turns out to be, having monetary implications sure seems to fit into our present world and (going) global economy/($ity, imo)
Quote from: eaglesway on March 09, 2015, 12:17:19 AM
I don't put my foot down on something unless I feel it satisfies all the scriptures relating to it.
:2c:
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: I would say that is THE attitude all believers should have!
"Revelation 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified."
eaglesway, wouldn't this be referring to Israel? Jesus was crucified at Golgotha. I believe it was on the Mount of Olives.
CHB
Jerusalem.
..that even earthly Jerusalem has been part of the fallen city/world of earth..?
In the very first book of the Bible, Genesis, we have mention of physical Sodom and Egypt (Genesis 13:10), but in the very last book of the Bible we have mentioned "spiritual" Sodom and Egypt (Rev. 11:8.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
And where was our Lord crucified? In literal Sodom? NO. In literal Egypt? NO. He was crucified in Jerusalem, which is now for prophetic purposes, "SODOM & EGYPT!"
amen, prophecy -
Revelation 16:14-16Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
14 for they are spirits of demons, doing signs -- which go forth unto the kings of the earth, and of the whole world, to bring them together to the battle of that great day of God the Almighty; --
15 `lo, I do come as a thief; happy [is] he who is watching, and keeping his garments, that he may not walk naked, and they may see his unseemliness,' --
16 and they did bring them together to the place that is called in Hebrew Armageddon.
Luke 21:20 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
20 `And when ye may see Jerusalem surrounded by encampments, then know that come nigh did her desolation;
Revelation 11:2,8 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
2 "and the court that is without the sanctuary leave out, and thou mayest not measure it, because it was given to the nations, and the holy city they shall tread down forty-two months...8 and their" (the 2 witnesses') "dead bodies [are] upon the broad-place of the great city (that is called spiritually Sodom, and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified,)"
Matthew 5:34-35 New King James Version (NKJV)
34 But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God's throne; 35 nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King.
Zechariah 12:3 King James Version (KJV)
- Conflict Israel/Jerusalem:
3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
Zechariah 12:7-9
7"The LORD also will save the tents of Judah first, so that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem will not be magnified above Judah. 8"In that day the LORD will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and the one who is feeble among them in that day will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the LORD before them. 9"And in that day I will set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem."
Zechariah 14:3-4 King James Version (KJV)
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Matthew 23:38-39 New King James Version (NKJV)
38 "See!" (Jerusalem) "Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!' "
..with..?? Revelation 12:17 New King James Version (NKJV)
17 "And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and" (by then?) "have the testimony of Jesus Christ."
Romans 11:15 New King James Version (NKJV)
15 "For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?" - (the 1st resurrection/Jesus' return)
Romans 11:15Contemporary English Version (CEV)
15 "When Israel rejected God, the rest of the people in the world were able to turn to him. So when God makes friends with Israel, it will be like bringing the dead back to life."