Mark of the Beast 2

[marie glen]

Daniel 12:11-12Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

11 "and from the time of the turning aside of the perpetual (always occurring?) "[sacrifice]" (prayers?) "and to the giving out of the desolating abomination, [are] days a thousand, two hundred, and ninety.
12 O the blessedness of him who is waiting earnestly, and doth come to the days, a thousand, three hundred, thirty and five."

the giving out of the desolating abomination..? the cannot buy or sell apparatus ('mark') whatever it is?

- about three years and seven months after a perpetual (always occurring,  (or whatever it is) is taken away (mt 24:1,2?) - 3 years and 7 months later the desecrating abomination is given out (set up, KJ, etc) says.

Happy the one who waits and comes to day 1335 / 45 days later.
-------------------------------------

New King James Version (NKJV)
11 "And from the time that the daily sacrifice" (prayers? or a place of, in Israel?) "is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days."

1,335
-1,290
--------
      45 (to me seems to be saying, 45 days of what? til when?)

:laughing7: hope this made a little bit of sense..

[Jock]

Here, I'll throw this into the mix

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrITx7_tTT0

Nitey nite

Jock

[micah7:9]

I am always amazed how the Bible supposedly plays no part in government and politics, and I just wonder where government and politics would have come up with the "idea" of these little chips should the Bible not spoke of the "MARK" But that is just my little amazed opinion :dsunny: He IS Risen! :HeartThrob:

[marie glen]

..and they (chips or whatnot) are some of the modern miracles and wonders which (have and will) so amaze the world.. i.e done by a white frocked magician (and great delusion, which changed western civilization and which began as a man/false prophet/teacher/teaching/prophecy for the world, denying YHVH, and instead causing man to once again look to the stars.. and since they so falsely claim to have proven 'God is dead' man will make man/government to be god..)

[WhiteWings]

Worshiping the image G1504  eikōn   a likeness, that is, (literally) statue, profile, or (figuratively) representation, resemblance

No doubt that your lexicon gives the correct translation.
But as you very well know it may not have any relevance at all.
If you would do similar look-ups with Jesus you would see yourself looking up for example lamb. Despite the perfect translation: Jesus wasn't an animal. It's a highly symbolic description.

So.... while looking a bit deeper into things using a lexicon is most certainly a good thing to do, we should be aware that there are lots of things that are symbolic. And those things make the lexicons virtually useless.

[eaglesway]

Jesus is the image of God, we are told in several places. So the image of the beast does not necessarily mean a physical icon of any kind- but then it could be a spiritual thing manifesting through a physical thing- a person, or a group of people. Any of these conjectures could be right in some measure.

Given the prohibition against graven images, and the propensity for man to always make gods in images of his own likeness or that of or mythical creatures, animals or just the works of hs own hands- It would not surprise me at all  to see men worshipping an actual anti-christ figure, around whom a huge complex spiritual vortex of aionian ungodliness(Babylon) swirls and spins chaos and oppression, as the end of the age approaches.

Just as men worshipped Ceasars and Hitler and the North Korean supreme leaders, and gurus and Pharoahs on and on from the beginning until now. I mean its just something we do as a race. Its in our nature, until we are redeemed.

[WhiteWings]

..and they (chips or whatnot) are some of the modern miracles and wonders

Dunno, but that high tech stuff is some sort of red flag.
The NT very often references to OT  verses/events. The NT references to ancient customs often predating Jesus by quite a while. The NT uses language that was understood by the common man (wheat, fish, shepherds, etc)

I'm not saying the mark can't be a high tech chip, I'm saying that the people during the time of writing and long before that already knew the meaning of 'a mark'. And that is what I'm missing in many/all discussions/studies/websites/books on the topic of 'the mark' none seem to bother figuring out how 'the mark' was understood, in say, 100 BC.

The chip is just one high tech example. For many whole Revelation is an high tech book. For example just read some opinions about how the moon and sun can be darkened. Sites filled with stuff about mysterious planets, calculations of trajectories of meteorites etc. Far from common ancient language.

God is certainly smart enough to include high tech prophesies but how could it also be understood 2000 years ago? This one is easier, defined in the Bible but often overlooked. The sun is seen as God's wisdom/love/power/morality and similar things. The lesser light, called the moon, was seen as reflecting things of the sun. And that reflection was symbolised the Law.... So while God is fully capable to 'encode' high tech stuff in ancient language the ancient interpretation is much more in line with what the OT was all about and what Jesus and the 12 often taught about. A darkened moon was (very likely) simply understood as a lawlessness. Rejection of God's laws. The moon was also seen as a gigantic clock that signaled certain festivals which itself tell us stuff about God's big plan. Those festivals are part of the Law too. They are no longer celebrated on time, correctly or even not at all.

That my all look a bit off-topic but I'm just trying to say we might have to go back to the roots and find the "the mark" in ancient understanding instead of in space age high tech explanations like micro chips and bar codes.
:2c:

[Shev]

Great stuff WhiteWings!

Personally I am of the thought that Revelation is a spiritual book, relaying spiritual realities in symbolic, spiritual terms to ALL spiritual people from the day it was written till now. I also believe it is what it says it is - the revelation, revealing, disclosing, and uncovering of Jesus Christ. When it supposedly becomes about literal Russia, China, bar codes, world leaders, politics and wars, it loses all relevance for me. I like what WhiteWings said about seeing things through an early believers eyes, as they would not have been thinking in terms of the things previously mentioned.

With regards to this mark, how can it be literal and defile a man? Did not Christ Himself say that only what comes OUT of a man defiles a man? So then why are we waiting for an external mark to defile us? Also, if the mark is literal, why is not the seal of God taken as literal too? Boy, that would make it a lot simpler - servants of the beast with 666 on their foreheads, while the servants of God have a glowing, literal seal emanating from their noggin!  :Chinscratch:

This is not meant as disrespectful to anyone with a literal viewpoint of the mark - and I can see what Eaglesway is saying about there often being a literal manifestation of spiritual realities, so it is not to rule anything out. My main concern is debate over literal marks, beasts and such things often takes the focus completely away from the focus of the book itself, which is the unfolding revelation of Jesus Christ Himself.  :dsunny:

[micah7:9]

Worshiping the image G1504  eikōn   a likeness, that is, (literally) statue, profile, or (figuratively) representation, resemblance

No doubt that your lexicon gives the correct translation.
But as you very well know it may not have any relevance at all.
If you would do similar look-ups with Jesus you would see yourself looking up for example lamb. Despite the perfect translation: Jesus wasn't an animal. It's a highly symbolic description.

So.... while looking a bit deeper into things using a lexicon is most certainly a good thing to do, we should be aware that there are lots of things that are symbolic. And those things make the lexicons virtually useless.

I may have mis represented what I meant. Not what we will look like but what is inside, how one thinks, ones carnality, ones hunger.My point was symbolic. :2c: :2c:

[CHB]

I use to think that the image of the beast was a cloned individual because it says that this image was given life and did speak. Sounds like it was made.

CHB

[eaglesway]

Now thats scary.

[Jock]

Lots of great posts here!

Eaglesway, this IS being forced in India. Absolutely every single man, woman and child has been scanned with a full biometric protocol. India, whew, that's a lotta people. Those poor folks are under the scrutiny of a government data base. The RFID chip and the implementation of it is buried down deep in Obamacare.

There is also nano technology and the sinister uses and potential of that.

And the hits just keep on comin!

Jock.

I believe that the Lord will keep us through any and all of it, even if we lose our heads! You know, Islam does seem to have a lot of the criteria?

[CHB]

Now thats scary.

Ain't it though?   :laughing7:

CHB

[CHB]

Here is an article by Dr. Ernest Martin about the mark and image of the beast. I don't know if this is right, or if it all applies today?

http://www.askelm.com/essentials/ess030.htm


CHB

[Jock]

Thanks CHB, I'll check that out.

here's one for you 

http://polidics.com/news/another-hidden-secret-in-obamacare-rfid-chip-implants.html

[sheila]

   ...the image speak..three unclean inspired expressions..........get behind me satan,for you have in mind the things of men...

  not God.... :dontknow:

[Jock]

I agree Sheila, GO sister!

here's another link

http://ezinearticles.com/?The-Good,-The-Bad,-and-The-Ugly-About-Nanotechnology&id=3685935

[sheila]

CHB that article link..was something else!

[Jock]

CHB

I just now finished that piece and it was quite an eye opener to say the least. This is obviously a man who has a good understanding of the spirituals and I enjoyed the read.

A couple of areas seemed a bit patchy but I won't go into that. Thanks for posting that mate  :thumbsup:

Shalom

Jock.

[micah7:9]

Me thinks we links to much :2c:

[ed]

Me thinks we links to much :2c:

FROM THE CANDLESTICK TO THE THRONE

Part 158

THE BEAST OUT OF THE EARTH

(continued)
https://www.godfire.net/eby/rev-158.html


I think that J P Eby gets close to a teaching I heard decades ago about 666

6 is the number of man.  3 is the number of perfection.

666=perfect imperfection.

Nothing more and nothing less.

It is not an actual mark, it is a spiritual reality, past, present, and future.





.

[micah7:9]

Luk 1:51  He hath shewed strength with his arm; he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.  G1271  deep thought, properly the faculty (mind or its disposition), by implication its exercise: - imagination, mind, understanding.

Gen 6:5  And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. H3336  a form; figuratively conception (that is, purpose): - frame, thing framed, imagination, mind, work .

Imo, The Lord placed the word "mark" in Holy Writ so that humanity would exercise it's intellect to comprehend the variety of what" the mark" could be, as our carnal mind searches it's meaning, and not see that the  "mark" is humanity's nature.  What else could represent an acceptance of the "freedom" one would bow to and worship, to consider survival in the midst of adversity?

Gen 4:15 And saying to him is Yahweh Elohim, "Not so. Anyone killing Cain, sevenfold shall it be avenged. "And placing is Yahweh Elohim a sign for Cain, to avoid anyone finding him smiting him.
Gen 4:16  And Cain goeth out from before Jehovah, and dwelleth in the land, moving about east of Eden;
Cain was free to move about.

Rev 13:17 and that no one may be able to buy or sell except the one having the emblem of the wild beast, or its name, or the number of its name."
Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has a mind calculate the number of the wild beast, for it is the number of mankind, and its number is six hundred sixty-six."  :2c:

[eaglesway]

I make no claim of understanding all this, because I don't, so I am open to any point of view on the subject, and have considered every thing I read.

If it seems I am resisting something, I am only testing it by the scriptures.

One thing I think has to be taken into consideration is the previous treatment of images in the scripture. And all the scriptures relating to the topic, so, if all we had to look at was Rev 13:17 & 18, it could lead to a certain interpretation.

But there are a lot of verses concerning both the spirit of anti-christ, and a potential individual manifestation of it in the last days.

Words of Daniel, Jesus, John, Paul etc.

Also, there are beasts in prophecies from Ezekiel, Daniel, others- they are ALWAYS empires. I dont think anyone can show me a single example where they are not(but feel free to, maybe I am wrong :). Also the statue(image) from Daniel. Head of Gold(Babylon) neck of silver(Media-Persia) etc. For that reason I think the two beasts of Rev 13 are also likely empires, with the dragon as perhaps a spiritual principality reigning over them.

Feet like a leapard(Germany?), mouth like a lion(UK?), body like a bear(Russia?), If this is an empire still to come it could be, a Euro/Russian combination. And another beast coming after like a Lamb with two horns out of it? I think this is very possible.

The 666 thing is only one element of the whole prophetic rendering out of all these verses I have refferred to, so whatever it is, in my opinion it is only one aspect of the whole picture.

Sometimes we look at one aspect and are correct in interpreting it but in error by interpreting it as defining the whole picture, and eliminating other valid images in the prohetic decoupage, which is fairly extensive in the prophetic writings about the end of the age.

I don't put my foot down on something unless I feel it satisfies all the scriptures relating to it.

:2c:

[Seth]

Just throwing this into the mix, that empires in the OT could represent sin, or at least spiritual rulership. For example, the promised land in the Book of Hebrews correlates with the peace of God, his rest. Back then, Israel was delivered from Egypt into the promised land. Egypt seems to me to be an excellent representation of what "carnal sold into sin" is, in contrast to the promised land. I could also see that in how Revelation uses Babylon and correlates it to wine that makes men drunk and in madness.

[Lazarus Short]

And another beast coming after like a Lamb with two horns out of it? I think this is very possible.

To some, the two-horned lamb-like beast is the bison, and therefore represents the USA.