Justice

[ed]

Today's argument.

"In order for God to be a just God He must uphold justice. It's His own Law and He must abide by His own Law or He is no longer God."

[JulieTang84]

Today's argument.

"In order for God to be a just God He must uphold justice. It's His own Law and He must abide by His own Law or He is no longer God."

Father is ALL LOVE  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

1 Corinthians 13:4-13
New International Version (NIV)
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

But to your question regarding Justice. Father cannot change and He cannot do anything more than He is. He simply cannot be anything less or more than He is.

Father by his very nature is justice personified. If anyone should think that Father is justified to punish sinners with torture has simply not been given the gift of unconditional love  :girlheart:

Some just cannot love everyone as brothers and sisters. It is just that simple.

It is mankind who lack justice towards Father. Our souls should be as mirrors, reflecting his love on everything.

Father LOVES  his children!!!!!

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

Today's argument.

"In order for God to be a just God He must uphold justice. It's His own Law and He must abide by His own Law or He is no longer God."

Heh? How does that work? That's kind of an odd argument. Does it suggest that God must sacrifice sheep to cover his own sin? That makes no sense to me.

1 Tim 1:9
We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers...

So, how is God under his own Law, and what does that have to do with upholding justice?

[JulieTang84]

Perfect questions Seth. It seemed like a circular argument to me :Chinscratch:

Love Julie  ::HeartThrob:

[ed]

So, how is God under his own Law, and what does that have to do with upholding justice?

Tis a good question.  We seem to be making the rules for God.

Since God's word says this and that, then God must do this and that.

Justice.  Balanced scales, right?

[JulieTang84]

So, how is God under his own Law, and what does that have to do with upholding justice?

Tis a good question.  We seem to be making the rules for God.

Since God's word says this and that, then God must do this and that.

Justice.  Balanced scales, right?

So does this mean that Father titters between what is right and wrong?

Ed please answer if you will, what is unjust regarding perfect love?

If Love is justified by it's many fine qualities as I posted earlier, where is there a place for retribution? As Paul said, love keeps no record of wrongs. This is not saying that it keeps no record, we will all give account on how we love and give love. How we care, how we feel ie SHINE!!!!

JUST like the master who demanded his servants give account for the silver they were given, so too will those whom Father has gifted much love to, give account. As I have said more than once, or it's not about them, but us.

Hoping this makes add much sense as I intended.   :Peace2:

Love Julie :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

So, how is God under his own Law, and what does that have to do with upholding justice?

Tis a good question.  We seem to be making the rules for God.

Since God's word says this and that, then God must do this and that.

Justice.  Balanced scales, right?

Much of this comes from Calvinism. Even people who aren't involved with Calvinism don't really know how deep his philosophy insinuates itself into general Christian theology. The whole idea of a God as compared to a secular judge in a secular justice system is from that ideal.

When you look in the Bible, the comparisons are more similar to a Father and children, rather than a judge and a captive, where the judge has no choices, because the law is higher than him.

Before Calvinism, the understanding was that Christ sacrificed himself to pay a debt to Satan who was owed souls. Calvin developed a theology wherein God himself was the angry, wrathful agent who needed to be paid off so that he could rightfully satisfy a Law that evidently constrains even Himself as you see in the OP. Jesus comes into the picture to pay the debt, and get people into Heaven by hiding them in himself and therefore the Law is satisfied and God is able to get them into Heaven without violating the law.

Notice that the Law, according to that argument is higher than God himself? That's because their model is the same in secular justice systems, where the law is higher than the judge, and the judge must serve the Law, objectively without consideration toward Love. We know the flaw, the Law is not higher than God, for God wrote the Law to reveal his loving nature to creatures he intends to form into his own image.

My View: The enemy is sin itself. The uncompromising punishments in the Law only reveal God's uncompromising nature in being rid of sin. Christ is the agent to do that in an effective way, through the Spirit by purchasing humanity with his blood, then giving them his own nature, to do away with sin, where the Law was weak to do it. God is a loving Father who sent Christ to reveal his love for humanity by providing the means to save them, not from his own anger, but from the carnal mind, from death, both physical and spiritual, and that all his judgments are filtered through the Cross, the death of sinful flesh for the good of humanity. And this plan is like a lump of leaven which will grow to leaven the whole lump.

[JulieTang84]

So, how is God under his own Law, and what does that have to do with upholding justice?

Tis a good question.  We seem to be making the rules for God.

Since God's word says this and that, then God must do this and that.

Justice.  Balanced scales, right?

Much of this comes from Calvinism. Even people who aren't involved with Calvinism don't really know how deep his philosophy insinuates itself into general Christian theology. The whole idea of a God as compared to a secular judge in a secular justice system is from that ideal.

When you look in the Bible, the comparisons are more similar to a Father and children, rather than a judge and a captive, where the judge has no choices, because the law is higher than him.

Before Calvinism, the understanding was that Christ sacrificed himself to pay a debt to Satan who was owed souls. Calvin developed a theology wherein God himself was the angry, wrathful agent who needed to be paid off so that he could rightfully satisfy a Law that evidently constrains even Himself as you see in the OP. Jesus comes into the picture to pay the debt, and get people into Heaven by hiding them in himself and therefore the Law is satisfied and God is able to get them into Heaven without violating the law.

Notice that the Law, according to that argument is higher than God himself? That's because their model is the same in secular justice systems, where the law is higher than the judge, and the judge must serve the Law, objectively without consideration toward Love. We know the flaw, the Law is not higher than God, for God wrote the Law to reveal his loving nature to creatures he intends to form into his own image.

My View: God is a loving Father who sent Christ to reveal his love for humanity by providing the means to save them, not from his own anger, but from the carnal mind, from death, both physical and spiritual, and that all his judgments are filtered through the Cross, the death of sinful flesh for the good of humanity. And this plan is like a lump of leaven which will grow to leaven the whole lump.

:friendstu: :gimmefive: :iagree:   :HeartThrob:

Perhaps the best post I have ever read Seth! :girlheart:
Your explanation is perfect.!!

I just knew we agree on the part's that really count.

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[ed]

Fix this:

Love is doing the requirements of the law.

God is love.

God loves us and we did nothing to make that happen.

Forgiveness is in Jesus Christ. Again we DID nothing to make our forgiveness happen. We don't make our forgiveness happen. We simply walk in it.

We are not received because of what we do or don't do. The Gospel is that we are received because of what Christ did. The good news is that we are all received, every one, in Christ. The bad news is that not all know it.

[Seth]

And get this Julie, this will not surprise you at all...

John Calvin was trained to be a lawyer!!! This was before his conversion. His dad was a lawyer too....

When he had his conversion experience and the Reformation was under way, he was in the perfect position to insert all his lawyerly stuff into Christian theology. This is why you hear so many Christians parroting off legal stuff as in the OP, because a lawyer was responsible for their theological understanding.

[Seth]

Love is doing the requirements of the law.

To me Love is doing things from a place of caring and generosity which comes natural to the converted mind following Christ. Those who do this will naturally do the requirements of the Law without being under it, because Love is the fulfillment of the Law.

God is love.

God loves us and we did nothing to make that happen.

Agreed in the sense that God causes us to do things which make his plan happen. He predestines it.

Forgiveness is in Jesus Christ. Again we DID nothing to make our forgiveness happen. We don't make our forgiveness happen. We simply walk in it.

Agreed, but with the addition that forgiveness is not the total end goal of the Gospel. A changed heart, and changed walk are the real goals of the Gospel. Forgiveness is a way of wiping the past away and focusing on the path in front.

It isn't simply a matter of "walking in Forgiveness" It's a matter of "Walking in the Spirit." Walking in the Spirit causes the changed nature that saves us from death. For them who profess Christ but turn away from the fruits, and return to hating their brothers etc, Christ will not receive them, but will judge them so that they will be humbled.

We are not received because of what we do or don't do. The Gospel is that we are received because of what Christ did. The good news is that we are all received, every one, in Christ. The bad news is that not all know it.

Not everyone knows that all will eventually be saved, but Christ grows them who receive him, so that he shows his Glory to the world by revealing his nature in them.

Christ will reject people based on what they do or not do.

James 2
12So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty. 13For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.

[ed]

Ed please answer if you will, what is unjust regarding perfect love?

Depends on who you are talking to.  I find Paul's rendition of love to be perfect.  Others might not like some parts of it.  Keeping no record of wrong? 

Do we have to pay God off to be accepted?  Cain and Able come to mind.  One was accepted and one was not.  Is that a picture of us all?   Lord I hope not, because I have trusted in the love of God for many years.   In the worst of times, I trusted that God was there.  In willful sin, I trusted that God was there.  I became apostate, trusting it was God that led me there.  I'm perfectly willing to walk out of my apostasy if God will do the leading.  I feel accepted.  Is this a strong delusion?   
Read it lightly please, I'm just journaling here.
All corrections accepted.

.

[Seth]

Can I suggest that God does not lead to apostasy, but that our own carnal natures and our own minds, along with the Devil do it?

James 1
13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. 16Do not err, my beloved brethren.


God does not tempt any man toward sin, but will allow them to be led off of their own. I am not sure how you view "apostasy." I proudly wear the label of "heretic" because I am a heretic against lies. But true apostasy, that which is truly against God's word is not from God, but from the mind.

[JulieTang84]

Do we have to pay God off to be accepted?  Cain and Able come to mind.  One was accepted and one was not.  Is that a picture of us all?   Lord I hope not, because I have trusted in the love of God for many years.   In the worst of times, I trusted that God was there.  In willful sin, I trusted that God was there.  I became apostate, trusting it was God that led me there.  I'm perfectly willing to walk out of my apostasy if God will do the leading.  I feel accepted.  Is this a strong delusion?   
Read it lightly please, I'm just journaling here.
All corrections accepted.

I can only speak for myself, but I know as a child, I did nothing to earn the love of my parents. Live is GIVE  and not earned.

I believe to a certain extent, perhaps even to a large extent, that there is a huge disparrity between that Father has chosen now and those whom he has not. I see it as our "job" to reflect as much love, light and truth on those that are as yet blind, so that they may learn of Fathers love through us.

I am not sure if Father has ever pulled me or even pushed me, though I know I have been slapped one or two times. Rather Father to me, simply opens doors that otherwise would not have been open. It is up to me to trust himenough to walk through.

Journal all you want Ed, it is good to let the spirit talk and it clears the mind.

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[Lazarus Short]

Ed, remember these two things:

#1  God's Law is no more and no less than a transcript of His Own Character.  As such, God is neither above (the Law subject to Him) nor below (subject to) His Own Law.  He moves with His Law just as naturally as we breathe.  All that God does is done within this framework.

#2  God's Justice was to send His Only Begotten Son to die for us.  From a mere human legal standpoint, that action is almost inconceivable, but when you begin to understand that God is not just Justice, but Mercy and Love as well, you can begin to comprehend it, however dimly...

[ed]

I did nothing to be accepted by God.

I knocked and the door was opened.

I'm not saying that all of my works are accepted by God.  I am though.  My works if in love, are acceptable to God.  My works if for any other reason are not acceptable, but I am still accepted.  God accepts us and never leaves us.  We may never know true fellowship with God.  We may never know that we are accepted, but we are.  Is this missing in the Christian message?

.

[micah7:9]

I did nothing to be accepted by God.

I knocked and the door was opened.

I'm not saying that all of my works are accepted by God.  I am though.  My works if in love, are acceptable to God.  My works if for any other reason are not acceptable, but I am still accepted.  God accepts us and never leaves us.  We may never know true fellowship with God.  We may never know that we are accepted, but we are.  Is this missing in the Christian message?







.

It really can be left right here....."I did nothing to be accepted by God."

[dajomaco]

I did nothing to be accepted by God.

I knocked and the door was opened.

I'm not saying that all of my works are accepted by God.  I am though.  My works if in love, are acceptable to God.  My works if for any other reason are not acceptable, but I am still accepted.  God accepts us and never leaves us.  We may never know true fellowship with God.  We may never know that we are accepted, but we are.  Is this missing in the Christian message?







.

It really can be left right here....."I did nothing to be accepted by God."

I have chosen to accept the fatality of me.
God chose Christ.

[Seth]

I did nothing to be accepted by God.

I knocked and the door was opened.

I'm not saying that all of my works are accepted by God.  I am though.  My works if in love, are acceptable to God.  My works if for any other reason are not acceptable, but I am still accepted.  God accepts us and never leaves us.  We may never know true fellowship with God.  We may never know that we are accepted, but we are.  Is this missing in the Christian message?

I think universal salvation is missing in the orthodox Christian message, for sure. I do believe everyone is accepted in the sense that Jesus died for the world and secured the salvation of all mankind from death.

Within that plan, and toward that plan, I do believe that "many are called, but few chosen" which means that there is a level of unacceptability regarding iniquity. When the Lord says "away from me, ye who work iniquity" I don't take that to be "accepting" necessarily.

However, I do see that as a stepping stone in God's plan to humble mankind and bring them into himself. I don't believe that God accepts the proud, but I do believe he rejects them so that they will become humble.

[rosered]

 

  Yes  the humbling is in the reaping what you sow   , you sow to the flesh its corrupion 

to the Spirit its life
   the power of  life and death are in the tongue  , its in   our language    heavenly or earthly
and the fruits of their doings

  the earth will learn righteousness !!


Micah 7 :13 New American Standard Bible
And the earth will become desolate because of her inhabitants, On account of the fruit of their deeds.

Proverbs 1:31 ESV
English Standard Version
therefore they shall eat the fruit of their way, and have their fill of their own devices.



Proverbs 1:31 
GOD'S WORD Translation
They will eat the fruit of their lifestyle. They will be stuffed with their own schemes.

King James Bible
Notwithstanding the land shall be desolate because of them that dwell therein, for the fruit of their doings.

   Just as God  says ..
Isaiah 3:10
Tell the righteous it will be well with them, for they will enjoy the fruit of their deeds.

  we learn  one way or the other we learn  !!

[Seth]

  Yes  the humbling is in the reaping what you sow   , you sow to the flesh its corrupion 

to the Spirit its life
   the power of  life and death are in the tongue  , its in   our language    heavenly or earthly
and the fruits of their doings

  the earth will learn righteousness !!


Micah 7 :13 New American Standard Bible
And the earth will become desolate because of her inhabitants, On account of the fruit of their deeds.

Proverbs 1:31 ESV
English Standard Version
therefore they shall eat the fruit of their way, and have their fill of their own devices.



Proverbs 1:31 
GOD'S WORD Translation
They will eat the fruit of their lifestyle. They will be stuffed with their own schemes.

King James Bible
Notwithstanding the land shall be desolate because of them that dwell therein, for the fruit of their doings.

   Just as God  says ..
Isaiah 3:10
Tell the righteous it will be well with them, for they will enjoy the fruit of their deeds.

  we learn  one way or the other we learn  !!

Yes, righteousness is something we creatures must learn, not something handed on a platter. It's a growth thing.  :thumbsup:

[ed]

However, I do see that as a stepping stone in God's plan to humble mankind and bring them into himself. I don't believe that God accepts the proud, but I do believe he rejects them so that they will become humble.

There is certainty a time of rejection.  It is not a full rejection.

The the word for "resists the proud" and non-acceptance the same?  Like your web page shows, the resisting is to bring them to THE place of humility so that they will find the grace in God.  Love that teaching.  God showed it to me years ago, and when I read it on your site I was happy to see it.

:Peace2: Seth

.

[Seth]

Agreed :gimmefive:

[micah7:9]

I found no "justice" in the NT. I understand what you say, in today's world, but what have you built the question on? Just what is this "justice" when I, me, personally can not study the word down?

[ed]

I found no "justice" in the NT. I understand what you say, in today's world, but what have you built the question on? Just what is this "justice" when I, me, personally can not study the word down?

Interesting.  A lot of people throw the word around on another board.  Just and justice would go hand in hand I would think.   I guess it would be an interesting study.  Without looking I thought the first usage was Noah was a just man...............

I thought it had to do with balanced scales.  I'm talking without looking anything up so I could be way off.