Today's argument.
"In order for God to be a just God He must uphold justice. It's His own Law and He must abide by His own Law or He is no longer God."
Quote from: ed on January 31, 2014, 05:36:48 PM
Today's argument.
"In order for God to be a just God He must uphold justice. It's His own Law and He must abide by His own Law or He is no longer God."
Father is ALL LOVE :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
1 Corinthians 13:4-13
New International Version (NIV)
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.
But to your question regarding Justice. Father cannot change and He cannot do anything more than He is. He simply cannot be anything less or more than He is.
Father by his very nature is justice personified. If anyone should think that Father is justified to punish sinners with torture has simply not been given the gift of unconditional love :girlheart:
Some just cannot love everyone as brothers and sisters. It is just that simple.
It is mankind who lack justice towards Father. Our souls should be as mirrors, reflecting his love on everything.
Father LOVES his children!!!!!
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Quote from: ed on January 31, 2014, 05:36:48 PM
Today's argument.
"In order for God to be a just God He must uphold justice. It's His own Law and He must abide by His own Law or He is no longer God."
Heh? How does that work? That's kind of an odd argument. Does it suggest that God must sacrifice sheep to cover his own sin? That makes no sense to me.
1 Tim 1:9
We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers...
So, how is God under his own Law, and what does that have to do with upholding justice?
Perfect questions Seth. It seemed like a circular argument to me :Chinscratch:
Love Julie ::HeartThrob:
Quote from: Seth on January 31, 2014, 08:20:15 PM
So, how is God under his own Law, and what does that have to do with upholding justice?
Tis a good question. We seem to be making the rules for God.
Since God's word says this and that, then God must do this and that.
Justice. Balanced scales, right?
Quote from: ed on January 31, 2014, 08:33:58 PM
Quote from: Seth on January 31, 2014, 08:20:15 PM
So, how is God under his own Law, and what does that have to do with upholding justice?
Tis a good question. We seem to be making the rules for God.
Since God's word says this and that, then God must do this and that.
Justice. Balanced scales, right?
So does this mean that Father titters between what is right and wrong?
Ed please answer if you will, what is unjust regarding perfect love?
If Love is justified by it's many fine qualities as I posted earlier, where is there a place for retribution? As Paul said, love keeps no record of wrongs. This is not saying that it keeps no record, we will all give account on how we love and give love. How we care, how we feel ie SHINE!!!!
JUST like the master who demanded his servants give account for the silver they were given, so too will those whom Father has gifted much love to, give account. As I have said more than once, or it's not about them, but us.
Hoping this makes add much sense as I intended. :Peace2:
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Quote from: ed on January 31, 2014, 08:33:58 PM
Quote from: Seth on January 31, 2014, 08:20:15 PM
So, how is God under his own Law, and what does that have to do with upholding justice?
Tis a good question. We seem to be making the rules for God.
Since God's word says this and that, then God must do this and that.
Justice. Balanced scales, right?
Much of this comes from Calvinism. Even people who aren't involved with Calvinism don't really know how deep his philosophy insinuates itself into general Christian theology. The whole idea of a God as compared to a secular judge in a secular justice system is from that ideal.
When you look in the Bible, the comparisons are more similar to a Father and children, rather than a judge and a captive, where the judge has no choices, because the law is higher than him.
Before Calvinism, the understanding was that Christ sacrificed himself to pay a debt to Satan who was owed souls. Calvin developed a theology wherein God himself was the angry, wrathful agent who needed to be paid off so that he could rightfully satisfy a Law that evidently constrains even Himself as you see in the OP. Jesus comes into the picture to pay the debt, and get people into Heaven by hiding them in himself and therefore the Law is satisfied and God is able to get them into Heaven without violating the law.
Notice that the Law, according to that argument is higher than God himself? That's because their model is the same in
secular justice systems, where the law is higher than the judge, and the judge must serve the Law, objectively without consideration toward Love. We know the flaw, the Law is not higher than God, for God wrote the Law to reveal his loving nature to creatures he intends to form into his own image.
My View: The enemy is sin itself. The uncompromising punishments in the Law only reveal God's uncompromising nature in being rid of sin. Christ is the agent to do that in an effective way, through the Spirit by purchasing humanity with his blood, then giving them his own nature, to do away with sin, where the Law was weak to do it. God is a loving Father who sent Christ to reveal his love for humanity by providing the means to save them, not from his own anger, but from the carnal mind, from death, both physical and spiritual, and that all his judgments are filtered through the Cross, the death of sinful flesh for the good of humanity. And this plan is like a lump of leaven which will grow to leaven the whole lump.
Quote from: Seth on January 31, 2014, 09:25:56 PM
Quote from: ed on January 31, 2014, 08:33:58 PM
Quote from: Seth on January 31, 2014, 08:20:15 PM
So, how is God under his own Law, and what does that have to do with upholding justice?
Tis a good question. We seem to be making the rules for God.
Since God's word says this and that, then God must do this and that.
Justice. Balanced scales, right?
Much of this comes from Calvinism. Even people who aren't involved with Calvinism don't really know how deep his philosophy insinuates itself into general Christian theology. The whole idea of a God as compared to a secular judge in a secular justice system is from that ideal.
When you look in the Bible, the comparisons are more similar to a Father and children, rather than a judge and a captive, where the judge has no choices, because the law is higher than him.
Before Calvinism, the understanding was that Christ sacrificed himself to pay a debt to Satan who was owed souls. Calvin developed a theology wherein God himself was the angry, wrathful agent who needed to be paid off so that he could rightfully satisfy a Law that evidently constrains even Himself as you see in the OP. Jesus comes into the picture to pay the debt, and get people into Heaven by hiding them in himself and therefore the Law is satisfied and God is able to get them into Heaven without violating the law.
Notice that the Law, according to that argument is higher than God himself? That's because their model is the same in secular justice systems, where the law is higher than the judge, and the judge must serve the Law, objectively without consideration toward Love. We know the flaw, the Law is not higher than God, for God wrote the Law to reveal his loving nature to creatures he intends to form into his own image.
My View: God is a loving Father who sent Christ to reveal his love for humanity by providing the means to save them, not from his own anger, but from the carnal mind, from death, both physical and spiritual, and that all his judgments are filtered through the Cross, the death of sinful flesh for the good of humanity. And this plan is like a lump of leaven which will grow to leaven the whole lump.
:friendstu: :gimmefive: :iagree: :HeartThrob:
Perhaps the best post I have ever read Seth! :girlheart:
Your explanation is perfect.!!
I just knew we agree on the part's that really count.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Fix this:
Love is doing the requirements of the law.
God is love.
God loves us and we did nothing to make that happen.
Forgiveness is in Jesus Christ. Again we DID nothing to make our forgiveness happen. We don't make our forgiveness happen. We simply walk in it.
We are not received because of what we do or don't do. The Gospel is that we are received because of what Christ did. The good news is that we are all received, every one, in Christ. The bad news is that not all know it.
And get this Julie, this will not surprise you at all...
John Calvin was trained to be a lawyer!!! This was before his conversion. His dad was a lawyer too....
When he had his conversion experience and the Reformation was under way, he was in the perfect position to insert all his lawyerly stuff into Christian theology. This is why you hear so many Christians parroting off legal stuff as in the OP, because a lawyer was responsible for their theological understanding.
Quote from: ed on January 31, 2014, 09:46:01 PMLove is doing the requirements of the law.
To me Love is doing things from a place of caring and generosity which comes natural to the converted mind following Christ. Those who do this will naturally do the requirements of the Law without being under it, because Love is the fulfillment of the Law.
QuoteGod is love.
God loves us and we did nothing to make that happen.
Agreed in the sense that God causes us to do things which make his plan happen. He predestines it.
QuoteForgiveness is in Jesus Christ. Again we DID nothing to make our forgiveness happen. We don't make our forgiveness happen. We simply walk in it.
Agreed, but with the addition that forgiveness is not the total end goal of the Gospel. A changed heart, and changed walk are the real goals of the Gospel. Forgiveness is a way of wiping the past away and focusing on the path in front.
It isn't simply a matter of "walking in Forgiveness" It's a matter of "Walking in the Spirit." Walking in the Spirit causes the changed nature that saves us from death. For them who profess Christ but turn away from the fruits, and return to hating their brothers etc, Christ will not receive them, but will judge them so that they will be humbled.
QuoteWe are not received because of what we do or don't do. The Gospel is that we are received because of what Christ did. The good news is that we are all received, every one, in Christ. The bad news is that not all know it.
Not everyone knows that all will eventually be saved, but Christ grows them who receive him, so that he shows his Glory to the world by revealing his nature in them.
Christ will reject people based on what they do or not do.
James 2
12So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty. 13For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.
Quote from: JulieTang84 on January 31, 2014, 09:10:58 PM
Ed please answer if you will, what is unjust regarding perfect love?
Depends on who you are talking to. I find Paul's rendition of love to be perfect. Others might not like some parts of it. Keeping no record of wrong?
Do we have to pay God off to be accepted? Cain and Able come to mind. One was accepted and one was not. Is that a picture of us all? Lord I hope not, because I have trusted in the love of God for many years. In the worst of times, I trusted that God was there. In willful sin, I trusted that God was there. I became apostate, trusting it was God that led me there. I'm perfectly willing to walk out of my apostasy if God will do the leading. I feel accepted. Is this a strong delusion?
Read it lightly please, I'm just journaling here.
All corrections accepted.
.
Can I suggest that God does not lead to apostasy, but that our own carnal natures and our own minds, along with the Devil do it?
James 1
13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. 16Do not err, my beloved brethren.
God does not tempt any man toward sin, but will allow them to be led off of their own. I am not sure how you view "apostasy." I proudly wear the label of "heretic" because I am a heretic against lies. But true apostasy, that which is truly against God's word is not from God, but from the mind.
Quote from: ed on January 31, 2014, 10:00:41 PM
Do we have to pay God off to be accepted? Cain and Able come to mind. One was accepted and one was not. Is that a picture of us all? Lord I hope not, because I have trusted in the love of God for many years. In the worst of times, I trusted that God was there. In willful sin, I trusted that God was there. I became apostate, trusting it was God that led me there. I'm perfectly willing to walk out of my apostasy if God will do the leading. I feel accepted. Is this a strong delusion?
Read it lightly please, I'm just journaling here.
All corrections accepted.
I can only speak for myself, but I know as a child, I did nothing to earn the love of my parents. Live is GIVE and not earned.
I believe to a certain extent, perhaps even to a large extent, that there is a huge disparrity between that Father has chosen now and those whom he has not. I see it as our "job" to reflect as much love, light and truth on those that are as yet blind, so that they may learn of Fathers love through us.
I am not sure if Father has ever pulled me or even pushed me, though I know I have been slapped one or two times. Rather Father to me, simply opens doors that otherwise would not have been open. It is up to me to trust himenough to walk through.
Journal all you want Ed, it is good to let the spirit talk and it clears the mind.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Ed, remember these two things:
#1 God's Law is no more and no less than a transcript of His Own Character. As such, God is neither above (the Law subject to Him) nor below (subject to) His Own Law. He moves with His Law just as naturally as we breathe. All that God does is done within this framework.
#2 God's Justice was to send His Only Begotten Son to die for us. From a mere human legal standpoint, that action is almost inconceivable, but when you begin to understand that God is not just Justice, but Mercy and Love as well, you can begin to comprehend it, however dimly...
I did nothing to be accepted by God.
I knocked and the door was opened.
I'm not saying that all of my works are accepted by God. I am though. My works if in love, are acceptable to God. My works if for any other reason are not acceptable, but I am still accepted. God accepts us and never leaves us. We may never know true fellowship with God. We may never know that we are accepted, but we are. Is this missing in the Christian message?
.
Quote from: ed on February 01, 2014, 02:55:39 AM
I did nothing to be accepted by God.
I knocked and the door was opened.
I'm not saying that all of my works are accepted by God. I am though. My works if in love, are acceptable to God. My works if for any other reason are not acceptable, but I am still accepted. God accepts us and never leaves us. We may never know true fellowship with God. We may never know that we are accepted, but we are. Is this missing in the Christian message?
.
It really can be left right here....."I did nothing to be accepted by God."
Quote from: micah7:9 on February 01, 2014, 03:00:16 AM
Quote from: ed on February 01, 2014, 02:55:39 AM
I did nothing to be accepted by God.
I knocked and the door was opened.
I'm not saying that all of my works are accepted by God. I am though. My works if in love, are acceptable to God. My works if for any other reason are not acceptable, but I am still accepted. God accepts us and never leaves us. We may never know true fellowship with God. We may never know that we are accepted, but we are. Is this missing in the Christian message?
.
It really can be left right here....."I did nothing to be accepted by God."
I have chosen to accept the fatality of me.
God chose Christ.
Quote from: ed on February 01, 2014, 02:55:39 AM
I did nothing to be accepted by God.
I knocked and the door was opened.
I'm not saying that all of my works are accepted by God. I am though. My works if in love, are acceptable to God. My works if for any other reason are not acceptable, but I am still accepted. God accepts us and never leaves us. We may never know true fellowship with God. We may never know that we are accepted, but we are. Is this missing in the Christian message?
I think universal salvation is missing in the orthodox Christian message, for sure. I do believe everyone is accepted in the sense that Jesus died for the world and secured the salvation of all mankind from death.
Within that plan, and toward that plan, I do believe that "many are called, but few chosen" which means that there is a level of unacceptability regarding iniquity. When the Lord says "away from me, ye who work iniquity" I don't take that to be "accepting" necessarily.
However, I do see that as a stepping stone in God's plan to humble mankind and bring them into himself. I don't believe that God accepts the proud, but I do believe he rejects them so that they will become humble.
Yes the humbling is in the reaping what you sow , you sow to the flesh its corrupion
to the Spirit its life
the power of life and death are in the tongue , its in our language heavenly or earthly
and the fruits of their doings
the earth will learn righteousness !!
Micah 7 :13 New American Standard Bible
And the earth will become desolate because of her inhabitants, On account of the fruit of their deeds.
Proverbs 1:31 ESV
English Standard Version
therefore they shall eat the fruit of their way, and have their fill of their own devices.
Proverbs 1:31
GOD'S WORD Translation
They will eat the fruit of their lifestyle. They will be stuffed with their own schemes.
King James Bible
Notwithstanding the land shall be desolate because of them that dwell therein, for the fruit of their doings.
Just as God says ..
Isaiah 3:10
Tell the righteous it will be well with them, for they will enjoy the fruit of their deeds.
we learn one way or the other we learn !!
Quote from: rosered on February 01, 2014, 10:34:58 PM
Yes the humbling is in the reaping what you sow , you sow to the flesh its corrupion
to the Spirit its life
the power of life and death are in the tongue , its in our language heavenly or earthly
and the fruits of their doings
the earth will learn righteousness !!
Micah 7 :13 New American Standard Bible
And the earth will become desolate because of her inhabitants, On account of the fruit of their deeds.
Proverbs 1:31 ESV
English Standard Version
therefore they shall eat the fruit of their way, and have their fill of their own devices.
Proverbs 1:31
GOD'S WORD Translation
They will eat the fruit of their lifestyle. They will be stuffed with their own schemes.
King James Bible
Notwithstanding the land shall be desolate because of them that dwell therein, for the fruit of their doings.
Just as God says ..
Isaiah 3:10
Tell the righteous it will be well with them, for they will enjoy the fruit of their deeds.
we learn one way or the other we learn !!
Yes, righteousness is something we creatures must learn, not something handed on a platter. It's a growth thing. :thumbsup:
Quote from: Seth on February 01, 2014, 09:58:05 PM
However, I do see that as a stepping stone in God's plan to humble mankind and bring them into himself. I don't believe that God accepts the proud, but I do believe he rejects them so that they will become humble.
There is certainty a time of rejection. It is not a full rejection.
The the word for "resists the proud" and non-acceptance the same? Like your web page shows, the resisting is to bring them to THE place of humility so that they will find the grace in God. Love that teaching. God showed it to me years ago, and when I read it on your site I was happy to see it.
:Peace2: Seth
.
Agreed :gimmefive:
I found no "justice" in the NT. I understand what you say, in today's world, but what have you built the question on? Just what is this "justice" when I, me, personally can not study the word down?
Quote from: micah7:9 on February 05, 2014, 12:31:35 AM
I found no "justice" in the NT. I understand what you say, in today's world, but what have you built the question on? Just what is this "justice" when I, me, personally can not study the word down?
Interesting. A lot of people throw the word around on another board. Just and justice would go hand in hand I would think. I guess it would be an interesting study. Without looking I thought the first usage was Noah was a just man...............
I thought it had to do with balanced scales. I'm talking without looking anything up so I could be way off.
"I'm talking without looking anything up so I could be way off." (Ed)
And so, with that very way of thinking[and no offence to you my friend] is how theologies, doctrines, denominations, sects, and today's christianity gets footholds in the minds and imaginations of men. Our hearts[minds] are the very things that are squeezed and formed; man, in the beginning was made to buy into all that our mind would-could-and can, keep man away from justice
H6666 rightness From H6663 A primitive root; to be (causatively make) right
:2c:
Quote from: ed on February 01, 2014, 11:59:30 PM
Quote from: Seth on February 01, 2014, 09:58:05 PM
However, I do see that as a stepping stone in God's plan to humble mankind and bring them into himself. I don't believe that God accepts the proud, but I do believe he rejects them so that they will become humble.
There is certainty a time of rejection. It is not a full rejection.
The the word for "resists the proud" and non-acceptance the same? Like your web page shows, the resisting is to bring them to THE place of humility so that they will find the grace in God. Love that teaching. God showed it to me years ago, and when I read it on your site I was happy to see it.
:Peace2: Seth
.
Would you give more information your thought? I am at a loss in understanding.."to THE place of humility so that they will find the grace in God."
I just don't understand your thought. :Chinscratch:
Quote from: micah7:9 on February 05, 2014, 12:31:35 AM
I found no "justice" in the NT. I understand what you say, in today's world, but what have you built the question on? Just what is this "justice" when I, me, personally can not study the word down?
Because you don't find the word in the NT doesn't mean it isn't implied. Just view the Bible as big Book. Not 2 separate ones. Justice is all about paying debts.
When someone stole something justice demanded that person paid it back 2 up to 7 times depending the situation.
In the OT we find many punishments for crimes.
"You shall pay...."
"You shall do..."
God clearly stated the punishment. A murderer shall be stoned to death. But never God added and when he's dead I continue punishing.
Sin, which is breaking a law, is debt that has to be paid. Often it can be paid but there are lots of situations that can't be paid. That's where Jesus steps in. He paid every last cent.
Finally, there are 2 sorts of justice.
Timora - vengence. It often involved torture of some kind.
Kolasis - correction. The word Jesus always used. That type of punishment had a learning component in it.
If God is a timora type of God, then hell fits very well. Vengeance for eternity.
If God is a correction type of God, then eternal hell means He's a failure because He's unable to teach the criminal.
Quote from: micah7:9 on February 05, 2014, 05:17:55 AM
Would you give more information your thought? I am at a loss in understanding.."to THE place of humility so that they will find the grace in God."
I just don't understand your thought. :Chinscratch:
James 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith,
God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.
I memorized that verse early on in my Christian walk. Things tend to get deeper, and God opens up the understanding through the practice of saying the word to yourself. I experienced this with many verses that I chose as I read through the Bible. Some verses jumped off the page at me and ministered to my immediate need.
There are a few places where this verse is used. James, 1 Peter, and I think it is a quote from the OT.
Proverbs 3:34 Surely he scorneth the scorners: but he giveth grace unto the lowly.
Thinking it through I came to the conclusion as to why God would resist the proud. God is love. Why would love resist anyone? Grace is in humility. The humble find the grace of God in their moment of need. God desires that all men come to knowledge of the truth............why? It is salvation.
It is the same with the reason that God would resist the proud. So that they can find, and walk in the grace of God.
.
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 05, 2014, 07:19:15 AM
Because you don't find the word in the NT doesn't mean it isn't implied. Just view the Bible as big Book. Not 2 separate ones. Justice is all about paying debts.
When someone stole something justice demanded that person paid it back 2 up to 7 times depending the situation.
In the OT we find many punishments for crimes.
"You shall pay...."
"You shall do..."
God clearly stated the punishment. A murderer shall be stoned to death. But never God added and when he's dead I continue punishing.
Sin, which is breaking a law, is debt that has to be paid. Often it can be paid but there are lots of situations that can't be paid. That's where Jesus steps in. He paid every last cent.
Finally, there are 2 sorts of justice.
Timora - vengence. It often involved torture of some kind.
Kolasis - correction. The word Jesus always used. That type of punishment had a learning component in it.
If God is a timora type of God, then hell fits very well. Vengeance for eternity.
If God is a correction type of God, then eternal hell means He's a failure because He's unable to teach the criminal.
This is excellent. Thank you WW.
The context of the conversation I was having was "an eye for eye". Equal. Just. This is the God that many know. Justice is not found much in our legal system. The scales of justice are in front of our courts though. Got to love it.
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 05, 2014, 07:19:15 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on February 05, 2014, 12:31:35 AM
I found no "justice" in the NT. I understand what you say, in today's world, but what have you built the question on? Just what is this "justice" when I, me, personally can not study the word down?
Because you don't find the word in the NT doesn't mean it isn't implied. Just view the Bible as big Book. Not 2 separate ones. Justice is all about paying debts.
When someone stole something justice demanded that person paid it back 2 up to 7 times depending the situation.
In the OT we find many punishments for crimes.
"You shall pay...."
"You shall do..."
God clearly stated the punishment. A murderer shall be stoned to death. But never God added and when he's dead I continue punishing.
Sin, which is breaking a law, is debt that has to be paid. Often it can be paid but there are lots of situations that can't be paid. That's where Jesus steps in. He paid every last cent.
Finally, there are 2 sorts of justice.
Timora - vengence. It often involved torture of some kind.
Kolasis - correction. The word Jesus always used. That type of punishment had a learning component in it.
If God is a timora type of God, then hell fits very well. Vengeance for eternity.
If God is a correction type of God, then eternal hell means He's a failure because He's unable to teach the criminal.
I agree, and I am not trying to separate 2 books, for me the book is One. I just looked the word up. And yes the word has the implication, the word justice is spoke a lot today, the implication is as you say, our implication.
Quote from: ed on February 05, 2014, 03:00:21 PM
Thinking it through I came to the conclusion as to why God would resist the proud. God is love. Why would love resist anyone? Grace is in humility. The humble find the grace of God in their moment of need. God desires that all men come to knowledge of the truth............why? It is salvation.
It is the same with the reason that God would resist the proud. So that they can find, and walk in the grace of God.
Amen.
I resist my own daughter when she is proud, when she is haughty and talks back. I sure do resist her and it causes her to be humbled. Sometimes, if she refuses to listen, I allow her to make her own mistakes so she sees a better path.
Justice can be easily understood as it pertains to the flesh.
The wisdom of this world cries for justice.
But what is spiritual justice.
Can the spirit of a man beheld to an account.
Can the injustice we commit in the flesh.
Cause us to have an unjust spirit.
A man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
Quote from: Seth on February 05, 2014, 09:12:22 PM
A man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
The faith to believe the above statement is beyond me .
I guess, thank you? :dontknow:
The idea of a just deal.
Where two parties come out even, at the end of the deal.
It could be reported that the deal was a just deal.
There is no just work that I could perform that would match
the work of the cross.
Where Jesus and I come out even.
Neither one of us owing the other.
So then, does God supply you with the Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law or by hearing with faith?
Therefore, let it be known to you, brothers, that through this man forgiveness of sins is being proclaimed to you, 39 and everyone who believes in Him is justified
Quote from: dajomaco on February 05, 2014, 11:24:01 PM
The idea of a just deal.
Where two parties come out even, at the end of the deal.
It could be reported that the deal was a just deal.
There is no just work that I could perform that would match
the work of the cross.
Where Jesus and I come out even.
Neither one of us owing the other.
When I look at James 2 I don't see works as a matter of making us even or even making a deal.
It's about showing the love that the Holy Spirit has planted in you. Love is to be shown in act not just in tongue. It has nothing to do with making deals and all other legal jargon. Rather, a changed heart, and a transformed life.
The context of "works" in James is not works of the Law but those done for a brother consistent with want James said in Chapter 1: "The word planted in you..."
A pimp is not justified by saying "I believe in Jesus" but adding repentance of pimping and abandoning those works for the ones consistent with a Son of God.
Quote from: dajomaco on February 06, 2014, 12:00:48 AM
Therefore, let it be known to you, brothers, that through this man forgiveness of sins is being proclaimed to you, 39 and everyone who believes in Him is justified
No, a man is justified by works and not by faith alone, just not by works of the Law.
One thing I see lacking in a lot of UR teaching is the purpose of the indwelling Holy Spirit in God's plan of salvation. The Bible speaks extensively on the purpose, but I find little spoken in UR teaching about WHY and what this powerful Spirit is doing for us in this Temple and what it has to do with works.
Again, the Apostles speak at length about it, but in UR, it seems most people speak more about Christ's death than his Life.
Hi Julie,
I just want to clarify that I do believe God sent his Son to die for the sins of the world so that he could forgive past sins and provide salvation from sin by way of his life, going forward. In that manner, the Father commended his love for the world. I just don't believe he did it to provide salvation from his own anger, rather the judgment we find ourselves in from birth, dying in Adam. I don't believe the sacrifice was a legal exchange to satiate God's wrath by disguising us as Christ through proxy righteousness.
Yes, if that is how you meant it, I agree. The Father set the requirement for a Lamb but Jesus willingly took that role upon himself. I thought you were saying that the blood sacrifice was not literal.
The way I see it if God required a Lamb for the sin of the world to die, and Jesus willingly took that role for the benefit of other people, that's a sacrifice.
Yes I believe God knew it was going to happen that it was his plan all along. Jesus died as the Lamb to commend the love of God. God did require a Lamb, and supplie one in himself.
Are you saying that God didn't require the sacrifice of lambs to atone for sin, or that those passages in the OT and NT are not authentic?
Quote from: JulieTang84 on February 06, 2014, 12:20:52 AM
Quote from: dajomaco on February 05, 2014, 11:51:13 PM
So then, does God supply you with the Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law or by hearing with faith?
DJ in my opinion it is neither. :friendstu:
Speaking from my experience and much that I have read and heard. With the Spirit comes a transformation that is so utterly complete that it even belies the word. Father is LOVE as well as SPIRIT. It stands to reason that the transformation would be of a Spirit of Love. :HeartThrob: My whole life is filled with LOVE.
This is why I find the term "Works" a little misleading, because what was once considered work is now "joy." Where "working" appears to indicate a requirement or obligation, stepping up to help with a love filled heart and not a single expectation is far removed from work. This is not to say that a lot of effort and long hours can be spent but time just flies because it is fun.
This is what I am sure James was alluding too. The Greek or Aramaic word for "Works" may had a different nuance than the English translation portrays. Regardless, Faith is a gift from Father and goes hand in hand (IMO) with the Spirit of Love. Grass, grows - Fish, swim - The Spirit of Love through Faith, produces good works.
I also understand that "works" covers a whole multitude of things. Things like how one wakes up and greets the morning. How they smile and treat others and how they step up to help when before they would not have noticed. Of course it can mean the big things too. But I always remember how Jesus praised the old Lady who gave but a "penny;" saying that she gave "more" than anyone else. Seems to me, this indicates the Spirit in which she gave rather than the amount.
Works of Love are very likely to be measured in much the same way. I know it sure melts my heart when I do something seemingly insignificant and receive a big smile and Thanks. Priceless :cloud9:
Just the way I see it ......
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Galatians 5:19 Now the
works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the
fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is
no law.
Wow.
Quote from: Seth on February 06, 2014, 06:15:02 AM
Are you saying that God didn't require the sacrifice of lambs to atone for sin, or that those passages in the OT and NT are not authentic?
Require, not desire.
Hosea 6:6 For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings.
Psalm 51:16 You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; you do not take pleasure in burnt offering
Psalm 40:6 Sacrifice and offering you did not desire-- but my ears you have opened -- burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not require.
Isa 1:11 "The multitude of your sacrifices-- what are they to me?" says the LORD. "I have more than enough of burnt offerings, of rams and the fat of fattened animals; I have no pleasure in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats.
1 Sam 15:22 But Samuel replied: "Does the LORD delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as much as in obeying the LORD? To obey is better than sacrifice, and to heed is better than the fat of rams.
Quote from: JulieTang84 on February 06, 2014, 04:55:54 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on February 06, 2014, 04:52:08 PM
Wow.
:dontknow: please explain :girlheart:
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
It is a word used for total amazement, an expression of surprise. :dsunny:
Quote from: JulieTang84 on February 06, 2014, 03:44:35 PM
Quote from: Seth on February 06, 2014, 06:15:02 AM
Are you saying that God didn't require the sacrifice of lambs to atone for sin, or that those passages in the OT and NT are not authentic?
Not at all! :friendstu:t.v.
We are just looking from a different view. I believe you are coming from the view point of the words as presented. While I am coming from the perspective of all the words that indicate Father is above everything and is complete in every way; He imo lacks nothing. So, in this sense, Father did not NEED or REQUIRE any atonement for sin.Because NOTHING that has happened since creation was outside of His plan.
So who needs the atonement? Who benefits most from it? We do. The law required an "eye for an eye" and many still hold to this law. However Jesus wept for those who saught to kill him and some of his last words was to Father to forgive their ignorance. Yet He gave his life freely on HIS authority, which must mean it was not a mandate from Father. More likely an amiable agreement between Father and Son before even Time.
Lets look at it again from the eyes of Satan. If Father HAD to have BLOOD for the atonement of sin., that can only mean that Satan is less bound by law than Father. Satan can destroy freely, but Father CANNOT restore. Love, perfectlove requires no atonement. If it does, then the love is not perfect. Father has told us that he has hardened the hearts of many, deafened and blinded the same.
What kind of loving Father would then demand blood for the mistakes made by a deaf and blind child by the FATHERS OWN HAND?
Make no mistake with this. Oh, you might bring up the great flood, but this is another story. Yahweh wad Jesus and Jesus died..........
This is a huge topic but it comes down to Faith and the light of Spirit so given. Spirit should never be used against Spirit, so I will close with, I am sure my view is no more spectacular than yours.
The peace and the love it's enough.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Yes I agree, it's not a matter of God being forced to do anything. The reason he required the sacrifices was for the remembrance of sin. It was for the purpose of show his creatures thier state of being so that they would call out for a savior from "the body of this death."
As WhiteWings said he desired something better, mercy. Enter Christ, the savior.
From my perspective, it all has to do with "let us make man in our image." It's all part of the plan.
Just to be clear, I am not saying that God was compelled to require sacrifices, but that he did it as part of his plan. I don't want people to think that I am saying God was in a corner about that. What I am saying is that God required blood sacrifice not from being compelled, but as a part of his overall plan to the end of being all in all.
God could have made everyone perfect from the beginning instantly, but he chose to MAKE man in his image, via a process. This is why he is compared to a Potter who takes unformed clay and forms it into a vessel.
Deu 32 ;34 "The LORD says, 'Am I not storing up these things,
sealing them away in my treasury?
Deu 32:35 I will take revenge; I will pay them back.
In due time their feet will slip.
Their day of disaster will arrive,
and their destiny will overtake them.'
Deu 32:36 "Indeed, the LORD will give justice to his people,
and he will change his mind about his servants,
when he sees their strength is gone
and no one is left, slave or free.
Deu 32:37 Then he will ask, 'Where are their gods,
the rocks they fled to for refuge?
Deu 32:38 Where now are those gods,
who ate the fat of their sacrifices
and drank the wine of their offerings?
Let those gods arise and help you!
Let them provide you with shelter!
Deu 32:39 Look now; I myself am he!
There is no other god but me!
I am the one who kills and gives life;
I am the one who wounds and heals;no one can be rescued from my powerful hand!
Deu 32:40 Now I raise my hand to heaven
and declare, "As surely as I live,
Deu 32:41 when I sharpen my flashing sword
and begin to carry out justice,I will take revenge on my enemies
and repay those who reject me.
Deu 32:42 I will make my arrows drunk with blood,
and my sword will devour flesh—
the blood of the slaughtered and the captives,
and the heads of the enemy leaders."'
Deu 32:43 "Rejoice with him, you heavens,
and let all of God's angels worship him.
Rejoice with his people, you nations,
and let all the angels be strengthened in him.
For he will avenge the blood of his servants;
he will take revenge against his enemies.
He will repay those who hate him
and cleanse the land for his people."
Since this is about Gods justice , one of the most powerful chapters in the old testament is Deut 32
It explains alot
Life is in the blood , and that is why blood was required [life]
its is God whom kills and makes alive
no flesh or blood inherits the kingdom
you are gods [heavenly beings ] and will die like men
seems every [tree] mans ideas of knowledge of good and evil , not planted by the Lord will be plucked up by the roots and burned in the fire
To me that just means they will NOT continue in this power to destroy what belongs to God ,and not acknowledge Him as the Supreme RULER humbling them and powerless and this is His justice in the earth
Psa 82:1 A psalm of Asaph.
God presides over heaven's court;
he pronounces judgment on the heavenly beings:
Psa 82:2 "How long will you hand down unjust decisions
by favoring the wicked?
Psa 82:3 "Give justice to the poor and the orphan;
uphold the rights of the oppressed and the destitute.
Psa 82:4 Rescue the poor and helpless;
deliver them from the grasp of evil people.
Psa 82:5 But these oppressors know nothing;
they are so ignorant!
They wander about in darkness,while the whole world is shaken to the core.
Psa 82:6 I say, 'You are gods;
you are all children of the Most High.
Psa 82:7 But you will die like mere mortals
and fall like every other ruler.'"
Psa 82:8 Rise up, O God, and judge the earth,
for all the nations belong to you.
the mortal is temporary and imortal is never ending , it what you put stock / trust in building upon
Guess simply put , God is not going to put up with any opposers and avenge those whom are doing Gods will and doing good and acknowledging and pleasing God in the earth [their life /blood ] the abels
and we got to remember even Jesus whom all things are being gathered into is also fair and just and true , those trees planted in righteouness cannot be destroyed but changed to be just like Him .
if you live by the sword you will die also by the same sword / Word of God
Quote from: rosered on February 06, 2014, 07:11:09 PM
Guess simply put , God is not going to put up with any opposers and avenge those whom are doing Gods will and doing good and acknowledging and pleasing God in the earth [their life /blood ] the abels
and we got to remember even Jesus whom all things are being gathered into is also fair and just and true , those trees planted in righteouness cannot be destroyed but changed to be just like Him .
if you live by the sword you will die also by the same sword / Word of God
Amen Rose :thumbsup:
Quote from: rosered on February 06, 2014, 06:58:14 PM
Deu 32 ;34 "The LORD says, 'Am I not storing up these things,
sealing them away in my treasury?
Deu 32:35 I will take revenge; I will pay them back.
In due time their feet will slip.
Their day of disaster will arrive,
and their destiny will overtake them.'
Deu 32:36 "Indeed, the LORD will give justice to his people,
and he will change his mind about his servants,
when he sees their strength is gone
and no one is left, slave or free.
Deu 32:37 Then he will ask, 'Where are their gods,
the rocks they fled to for refuge?
Deu 32:38 Where now are those gods,
who ate the fat of their sacrifices
and drank the wine of their offerings?
Let those gods arise and help you!
Let them provide you with shelter!
Deu 32:39 Look now; I myself am he!
There is no other god but me!
I am the one who kills and gives life;
I am the one who wounds and heals;no one can be rescued from my powerful hand!
Deu 32:40 Now I raise my hand to heaven
and declare, "As surely as I live,
Deu 32:41 when I sharpen my flashing sword
and begin to carry out justice,I will take revenge on my enemies
and repay those who reject me.
Deu 32:42 I will make my arrows drunk with blood,
and my sword will devour flesh—
the blood of the slaughtered and the captives,
and the heads of the enemy leaders."'
Deu 32:43 "Rejoice with him, you heavens,
and let all of God's angels worship him.
Rejoice with his people, you nations,
and let all the angels be strengthened in him.
For he will avenge the blood of his servants;
he will take revenge against his enemies.
He will repay those who hate him
and cleanse the land for his people."
Since this is about Gods justice , one of the most powerful chapters in the old testament is Deut 32
It explains alot
Life is in the blood , and that is why blood was required [life]
its is God whom kills and makes alive
no flesh or blood inherits the kingdom
you are gods [heavenly beings ] and will die like men
seems every [tree] mans ideas of knowledge of good and evil , not planted by the Lord will be plucked up by the roots and burned in the fire
To me that just means they will NOT continue in this power to destroy what belongs to God ,and not acknowledge Him as the Supreme RULER humbling them and powerless and this is His justice in the earth
Psa 82:1 A psalm of Asaph.
God presides over heaven's court;
he pronounces judgment on the heavenly beings:
Psa 82:2 "How long will you hand down unjust decisions
by favoring the wicked?
Psa 82:3 "Give justice to the poor and the orphan;
uphold the rights of the oppressed and the destitute.
Psa 82:4 Rescue the poor and helpless;
deliver them from the grasp of evil people.
Psa 82:5 But these oppressors know nothing;
they are so ignorant!
They wander about in darkness,while the whole world is shaken to the core.
Psa 82:6 I say, 'You are gods;
you are all children of the Most High.
Psa 82:7 But you will die like mere mortals
and fall like every other ruler.'"
Psa 82:8 Rise up, O God, and judge the earth,
for all the nations belong to you.
the mortal is temporary and imortal is never ending , it what you put stock / trust in building upon
WOW.
LOL
rosered I really appreciate the heart you put into the word..................after the word has hit your heart.
.
Quote from: JulieTangWho needs understanding??? I ask in perfect honesty, because doesn't understanding dilute trust. Adam abd Eve fell because they saught understanding instead of faithful trust.
I don't believe understanding dilutes trust. For me, it has only strengthened trust. Just my thoughts. Adam and Eve fell because they disobeyed God. God never said that he would not have them knowing good and evil, or that he wouldn't grant them understanding, but they attempted to do so by superseding his commandments, going around them, rather than staying in the commandment where they belonged.
Blessings Julie Seth and Ed .,,
Thank you for your time and considerations !
Means alot
Seth I agree its the direct with knowledge of disobedience that , put the Law of God into action .
and the result of the tree knowledge of good and evil has the blessing and cursings in it
the whole world lies in wickedness
this is the corruption and reaping as the sowing
state , look around and we see Gods Word is true!!!
This Is Why we Believe and obey !! to me when we pray to GOD for His will to be done in our earth[earthly bodies ] as it is in Heaven and pray for those whom are needing God to also come though Jesus Christ to be kept by and in Him we are asking for a just judgement of God to come and destroy what is corrupting our earth[ anyones bodies ] and make it new and right with God , by being protected in Jesus Christ [His body] hid in Christ till the overflowing refuge has past ..
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
1Jo 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lies in wickedness. If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
1Jo 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
1Jo 5:18 ¶ We know that whosoever is born of God sins not; but he that is begotten of God keeps himself, and that wicked one touches him not. 1Jo 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lies in wickedness.
1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and has given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
1Jo 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.
when the world lies in wickedness its important to LIFT UP THE LORD JESUS CHRIST ! that salvation comes If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto ME!
There is no name under heaven by which you MUST be saved !
its simple and plain and truthful as can be that a little child CAN understand it :dsunny:
I was told many many years ago....'you can learn the easier way..by listening to me..or you
can learn the hard way,but learn you will." He also says, I will teach you and lead you in the way
that is best for you. Jesus was perfected..and learned obiedience through suffering.
you see..we can suffer as evil doers...but we can also suffer for obedience[see Job's trial]
God saw that those who turned awa from evil,become as prey in the earth
to 'grow' unto maturity is a learning expierence...with both positive and negative .........
oftentimes we learn through our failures..painful lessons. But we also need to do His
commandments[learn obedience] and we do this through suffering for righteousness sake.
he who suffers for righteousness sake has turned from sin. Perfection of the spirit comes
from suffering for righteousness sake[for the benefit for other's..even though it is 'unjust'
otherwise..people ma avoid sin just to avoid painful consequences of it[like pavlov's dog..
where everytime he approaches certain item is shocked..will be conditioned to avoid d/t
painful consequence] the perfection of the spirit,of which Jesus said; ye must be perfect as
your Father in heaven is perfect..freely forgive.... avoidance of the ee for an eye mentality..or
venegeance...should make us reconsider what God really means when He says..'venegeance is
mine" Love and merc triumphs over judgement! the perfection that God is seeking in the spirit
from His children did not and could not be accomplished through the law.....the perfection comes
of the spirit of love[perfect bond of union] for God and all mankind. It goes far and above
the 'law'..there is no law against it. actually the law reveals the lack of love..for God and all
mankind. the failure to miss the mark of the High calling is failing in the maturity depth,width
of the love of God. God seeks after this in His creatures. The willingness to suffer for the benefit of
others ..in obedience to Christ and Father,in love.
the reconciliation of ALL requires this...a not counting sins tresspasses against others....a
whole lot of forgiveness of things suffered will have to take place........and it will all be as nothing
just as Jacob counted the 14 yrs of labour for Rachael..as nothing.....this is the joy that Christ
had before Him that he endured a torture stake for.
No wrongs done to any down here are going to matter..they are all going to be forgotten..as
nothing,as incosequential....Just as a mother forgets her biirthpangs for joy that the child
is here!
YOU MUST FORGIVE THOSE WHO TRESSPASS AGAINST YOU..OR FATHER WILL NOT FORGIVE
YOU YOUR"E TRESSPASSES. OUR FIRST FATHER ADAM TRESSpassed against God
TOOK WHAT WAS Not his in the garden.
the spirit creature is about love and forgiveness..it..is about love
Now is the time to forgive..from the heart..all men...Father forgive themmm
Very well said Shelia !! :thumbsup:
forgive and be forgiven putting on the perfect bond of Unity in Christ ,as we see with natural eyes the consequences of disobedience in the earth knowing its temporary :sigh:
¶ I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
Eph 4:2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
Eph 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all
as we patiently wait on the Lord to gather all things into Himself :HeartThrob:
is there a 'spirit' of wickedness in a High Place[throne of Christ] in any of us? such as the man
whose tresspasses were freely forgiven...then demanded 'justice' for the man who was in debt
to him?
do we want a lying cheating pair of scales..with large measures of grace for ourselves
and the law for other's...I saw satan fall like lightening from heaven........as lightening shines
across the sky from one end of it to another..so will the coming of the Son of Man be[ the lawless
one shall be revealed..and He shall do away with him at the breath of His coming. }
the accusor of the brethern..who accuses them da and night before the Lord[at the throne] is cast
unto the earth. the satan,knowing that his time is short...was WRATHFUL...pursued the woman..and opened
his mouth an spewed forth floodwaters..to tr and wash the woman awa of the floodwaters........
but the earth opened it's mouth and swallowed up the waters of the dragon..........
do we really want to demand 'justice" for mankind..over mercy and grace?............I don't.
Yes , Shelia I do believe God will cut it short in righteouness !!! :thumbsup:
love romans 9 proving God is merciful to ALL NLT Like Paul here hated to see the suffering of his pepole and yet never lost heart that God would show mercy to all in the end
Rom 9:1 With Christ as my witness, I speak with utter truthfulness. My conscience and the Holy Spirit confirm it.
Rom 9:2 My heart is filled with bitter sorrow and unending grief
Rom 9:3 for my people, my Jewish brothers and sisters. I would be willing to be forever cursed—cut off from Christ!—if that would save them.
Rom 9:4 They are the people of Israel, chosen to be God's adopted children. God revealed his glory to them. He made covenants with them and gave them his law. He gave them the privilege of worshiping him and receiving his wonderful promises.
Rom 9:5 Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are their ancestors, and Christ himself was an Israelite as far as his human nature is concerned. And he is God, the one who rules over everything and is worthy of eternal praise! Amen.
Rom 9:6 Well then, has God failed to fulfill his promise to Israel? No, for not all who are born into the nation of Israel are truly members of God's people!
Rom 9:7 Being descendants of Abraham doesn't make them truly Abraham's children. For the Scriptures say, "Isaac is the son through whom your descendants will be counted," though Abraham had other children, too.
Rom 9:8 This means that Abraham's physical descendants are not necessarily children of God. Only the children of the promise are considered to be Abraham's children.
Rom 9:9 For God had promised, "I will return about this time next year, and Sarah will have a son." [fn]
Rom 9:10 This son was our ancestor Isaac. When he married Rebekah, she gave birth to twins. [fn]
Rom 9:11 But before they were born, before they had done anything good or bad, she received a message from God. (This message shows that God chooses people according to his own purposes;
Rom 9:12 he calls people, but not according to their good or bad works.) She was told, "Your older son will serve your younger son."
Rom 9:13 In the words of the Scriptures, "I loved Jacob, but I rejected Esau."
Rom 9:14 Are we saying, then, that God was unfair? Of course not!
Rom 9:15 For God said to Moses,
"I will show mercy to anyone I choose,
and I will show compassion to anyone I choose."
Rom 9:16 So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it.
Rom 9:17 For the Scriptures say that God told Pharaoh, "I have appointed you for the very purpose of displaying my power in you and to spread my fame throughout the earth." [fn]
Rom 9:18 So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen.
Rom 9:19 Well then, you might say, "Why does God blame people for not responding? Haven't they simply done what he makes them do?"
Rom 9:20 No, don't say that. Who are you, a mere human being, to argue with God? Should the thing that was created say to the one who created it, "Why have you made me like this?"
Rom 9:21 When a potter makes jars out of clay, doesn't he have a right to use the same lump of clay to make one jar for decoration and another to throw garbage into?
Rom 9:22 In the same way, even though God has the right to show his anger and his power, he is very patient with those on whom his anger falls, who are destined for destruction.
Rom 9:23 He does this to make the riches of his glory shine even brighter on those to whom he shows mercy, who were prepared in advance for glory.
Rom 9:24 And we are among those whom he selected, both from the Jews and from the Gentiles.
Rom 9:25 Concerning the Gentiles, God says in the prophecy of Hosea,
"Those who were not my people,
I will now call my people.
And I will love those
whom I did not love before."
Rom 9:26 And,
"Then, at the place where they were told,
'You are not my people,'
there they will be called
'children of the living God.'"
Rom 9:27 And concerning Israel, Isaiah the prophet cried out,
"Though the people of Israel are as numerous as the sand of the seashore,
only a remnant will be saved.
Rom 9:28 For the LORD will carry out his sentence upon the earth
quickly and with finality."
Rom 9:29 And Isaiah said the same thing in another place:
"If the LORD of Heaven's Armies
had not spared a few of our children,
we would have been wiped out like Sodom,
destroyed like Gomorrah."
Rom 9:30 What does all this mean? Even though the Gentiles were not trying to follow God's standards, they were made right with God. And it was by faith that this took place.
Rom 9:31 But the people of Israel, who tried so hard to get right with God by keeping the law, never succeeded.
Rom 9:32 Why not? Because they were trying to get right with God by keeping the law instead of by trusting in him. They stumbled over the great rock in their path.
Rom 9:33 God warned them of this in the Scriptures when he said,
"I am placing a stone in Jerusalem that makes people stumble,
a rock that makes them fall.
But anyone who trusts in him
will never be disgraced."
"...we are asking for a just judgement of God to come and destroy what is corrupting our earth[ anyones bodies ] ..." {Rosered}
Rom 9:18 so, then, to whom He willeth, He doth kindness, and to whom He willeth, He doth harden.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say, then, to me, `Why yet doth He find fault? for His counsel who hath resisted?'
Rom 9:20 nay, but, O man, who art thou that art answering again to God? shall the thing formed say to Him who did form it , Why me didst thou make thus?
Perhaps I misunderstood. :Peace2:
"...like pavlov's dog.." {Shelia}
Pavlov's dog? You got me there. :Chinscratch:
""Yeah sure, many think my wonderful church is just another new age cult, but it isn't." (JulieTang)
This just "spooked" me, that's just me though. :dsunny:
Quote from: micah7:9 on February 07, 2014, 04:28:31 AM
"...we are asking for a just judgement of God to come and destroy what is corrupting our earth[ anyones bodies ] ..." {Rosered}
Rom 9:18 so, then, to whom He willeth, He doth kindness, and to whom He willeth, He doth harden.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say, then, to me, `Why yet doth He find fault? for His counsel who hath resisted?'
Rom 9:20 nay, but, O man, who art thou that art answering again to God? shall the thing formed say to Him who did form it , Why me didst thou make thus?
Perhaps I misunderstood. :Peace2:
"...like pavlov's dog.." {Shelia}
Pavlov's dog? You got me there. :Chinscratch:
Hi Micah , This Is Why we Believe and obey !!
to me when we pray to GOD for His will to be done in our earth[earthly bodies ] as it is in Heaven
and pray for those whom are needing
God to also come though Jesus Christ to be kept
by and in Him
we are asking for a just judgement of God to come and destroy what is corrupting our earth[ anyones bodies ] and make it new and right with God ,
by being protected in Jesus Christ [His body] hid in Christ till the overflowing refuge has past ..
Maybe not the best wording , I will try to express this in clearer terms
Some of the biggest battles to me are dealing within ourselves
this time of asking God to help and remove an evil thought or nature within us that to me is the same thing Jesus said the Lords prayer ,Teaching us when you pray
Our Father who is in heaven hallowed be your name , your kingdom come , your will be done on earth as it is in heaven
you see that sets in motion to me Gods judgments as well as His blessings
He chastens and scourges every son that is recieved into His Kingdom ...
As a Good Father does
NLT
Mat 6:1 "Watch out! Don't do your good deeds publicly, to be admired by others, for you will lose the reward from your Father in heaven.
Mat 6:2 When you give to someone in need, don't do as the hypocrites do—blowing trumpets in the synagogues and streets to call attention to their acts of charity! I tell you the truth, they have received all the reward they will ever get.
Mat 6:3 But when you give to someone in need, don't let your left hand know what your right hand is doing.
Mat 6:4 Give your gifts in private, and your Father, who sees everything, will reward you.
Mat 6:5 "When you pray, don't be like the hypocrites who love to pray publicly on street corners and in the synagogues where everyone can see them. I tell you the truth, that is all the reward they will ever get.
Mat 6:6
But when you pray, go away by yourself, shut the door behind you, and pray to your Father in private. Then your Father, who sees everything, will reward you.
Mat 6:7 "
When you pray, don't babble on and on as people of other religions do. They think their prayers are answered merely by repeating their words again and again. Mat 6:8
Don't be like them, for your Father knows exactly what you need even before you ask him! Mat 6:9
Pray like this:
Our Father in heaven,
may your name be kept holy. Mat 6:10
May your Kingdom come soon.
May your will be done on earth,
as it is in heaven. Mat 6:11
Give us today the food we need, Mat 6:12
and forgive us our sins,
as we have forgiven those who sin against us. Mat 6:13
And don't let us yield to temptation, but rescue us from the evil one. Mat 6:14 "
If you forgive those who sin against you, your heavenly Father will forgive you. Mat 6:15 But if you refuse to forgive others, your Father will not forgive your sins.
Its never a good thing to let bitterness take a root within , its hard to bear it
when you let it go and forgive , your not holding that hard nature and heart anylonger and Letting God do His wonderful work within and others to will be blessed by seeing it
to me hate breeds more hatred and shame comes with that , hiding not facing them anymore and avoidance
but Love covers your [ sin ] nakedness as well as covering your enemies that they will be ashamed for acting such ways
taking on the holy and pure nature of Christ that they too will desire to please the Lord
Hope this was clearer :dsunny:
http://www.simplypsychology.org/pavlov.html (http://www.simplypsychology.org/pavlov.html)
to help explain Pavlovs dogs , Shelia hope you dont mind me putting up this link
Quote from: rosered on February 07, 2014, 06:00:56 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on February 07, 2014, 04:28:31 AM
"...we are asking for a just judgement of God to come and destroy what is corrupting our earth[ anyones bodies ] ..." {Rosered}
Rom 9:18 so, then, to whom He willeth, He doth kindness, and to whom He willeth, He doth harden.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say, then, to me, `Why yet doth He find fault? for His counsel who hath resisted?'
Rom 9:20 nay, but, O man, who art thou that art answering again to God? shall the thing formed say to Him who did form it , Why me didst thou make thus?
Perhaps I misunderstood. :Peace2:
"...like pavlov's dog.." {Shelia}
Pavlov's dog? You got me there. :Chinscratch:
Hi Micah , This Is Why we Believe and obey !!
to me when we pray to GOD for His will to be done in our earth[earthly bodies ] as it is in Heaven
and pray for those whom are needing God to also come though Jesus Christ to be kept by and in Him
we are asking for a just judgement of God to come and destroy what is corrupting our earth[ anyones bodies ] and make it new and right with God ,
by being protected in Jesus Christ [His body] hid in Christ till the overflowing refuge has past ..
Maybe not the best wording , I will try to express this in clearer terms
Some of the biggest battles to me are dealing within ourselves
this time of asking God to help and remove an evil thought or nature within us that to me is the same thing Jesus said the Lords prayer ,Teaching us when you pray
Our Father who is in heaven hallowed be your name , your kingdom come , your will be done on earth as it is in heaven
you see that sets in motion to me Gods judgments as well as His blessings
He chastens and scourges every son that is recieved into His Kingdom ...
As a Good Father does
NLT
Mat 6:1 "Watch out! Don't do your good deeds publicly, to be admired by others, for you will lose the reward from your Father in heaven.
Mat 6:2 When you give to someone in need, don't do as the hypocrites do—blowing trumpets in the synagogues and streets to call attention to their acts of charity! I tell you the truth, they have received all the reward they will ever get.
Mat 6:3 But when you give to someone in need, don't let your left hand know what your right hand is doing.
Mat 6:4 Give your gifts in private, and your Father, who sees everything, will reward you.
Mat 6:5 "When you pray, don't be like the hypocrites who love to pray publicly on street corners and in the synagogues where everyone can see them. I tell you the truth, that is all the reward they will ever get.
Mat 6:6 But when you pray, go away by yourself, shut the door behind you, and pray to your Father in private. Then your Father, who sees everything, will reward you.
Mat 6:7 "When you pray, don't babble on and on as people of other religions do. They think their prayers are answered merely by repeating their words again and again.
Mat 6:8 Don't be like them, for your Father knows exactly what you need even before you ask him!
Mat 6:9 Pray like this:
Our Father in heaven,
may your name be kept holy.
Mat 6:10 May your Kingdom come soon.
May your will be done on earth,
as it is in heaven.
Mat 6:11 Give us today the food we need,
Mat 6:12 and forgive us our sins,
as we have forgiven those who sin against us.
Mat 6:13 And don't let us yield to temptation, but rescue us from the evil one.
Mat 6:14 "If you forgive those who sin against you, your heavenly Father will forgive you. Mat 6:15 But if you refuse to forgive others, your Father will not forgive your sins.
Its never a good thing to let bitterness take a root within , its hard to bear it
when you let it go and forgive , your not holding that hard nature and heart anylonger and Letting God do His wonderful work within and others to will be blessed by seeing it
to me hate breeds more hatred and shame comes with that , hiding not facing them anymore and avoidance
but Love covers your [ sin ] nakedness as well as covering your enemies that they will be ashamed for acting such ways
taking on the holy and pure nature of Christ that they too will desire to please the Lord
Hope this was clearer :dsunny:
It's probably just me, but it seems like what you say, is you are trying to turn His head rather than just going with how He set it all in motion.
I, me, personally hear a lot about winning souls in theology and christian religion, but the Bible is absent on this theme, as far as I have read.
I just have been given to understand, just walk and when called, listen, yield and go from there. Perhaps I am in error, because I, that's me, personally don't get much done, when I used to try, when I got off my knees, to do what I felt I accomplished in all my words of praise and thanks, added to naught and I would get, well upset. I have found it best to just wait.....I am in waiting, but
I want to do more! Hope I was somewhat clear. :dsunny:
Quote from: rosered on February 07, 2014, 06:11:55 AM
http://www.simplypsychology.org/pavlov.html (http://www.simplypsychology.org/pavlov.html)
to help explain Pavlovs dogs , Shelia hope you dont mind me putting up this link
Oh, I don't really care about Pavlovs dog(s) I sorry. :banana:
QuoteIt's probably just me, but it seems like what you say, is you are trying to turn His head rather than just going with how He set it all in motion.
I, me, personally hear a lot about winning souls in theology and christian religion, but the Bible is absent on this theme, as far as I have read.
I just have been given to understand, just walk and when called, listen, yield and go from there. Perhaps I am in error, because I, that's me, personally don't get much done, when I used to try, when I got off my knees, to do what I felt I accomplished in all my words of praise and thanks, added to naught and I would get, well upset. I have found it best to just wait.....I am in waiting, but I want to do more! Hope I was somewhat clear.
Yes you were clear Micah ,
Maybe its simple ,
you just have to talk to the Lord and make it really personal , that kind of relationship is valuable and humbling and dear , it not anything you want everyone to know about , intimate
I dont think we should ever try to impress mankind by acting holy , God knows our hearts , but wants us to know it as well , if we think that is what The Lord Jesus wants from us
than the joke is on us , we are only fooling ourselves :sigh:
I rest. :dsunny:
the promised seed is a blessing to all the nations[not a curse] thus He instructs Bless and curse not..
Psalms 109 there is one who wears cursing as a garment.....he is the accusor......they may
curse but you will Bless.
never forget God's justice..for all men were dead[Adam in corrupt image] and all shall be
raised up in Christ's incorruptible image[Grace]
ou see..He demands all the fruit of the Hol spirit[all men] nothing less shall suffice
mercy compassion and grace are fruits of the Holy spirit....you can be righteous and not possess
mercy and grace[under the law men died without mercy] but He wants all the fruit!!
is love,love without mercy compassion and undeserved kindness? nope!
we have many that preach a 'gospel?' of cursing on men..eternal torture etc..accusations
against men and condemnation. Psalms 09;18 nhe wore cursing as his garment; it entered into
his body like water..into his bones like oil...
the new covenant,new creature,new earth=no more curse.....
it is under the law that the Blessings and cursings come...but if you have faith the size of a mustard seed..ye can say to this mountain..be removed and cast into the sea[babylon...teach
these little ones to err/sin fall short of the fullness of Christ