if Jesus paid for all sin, then why a hell at all?

[WhiteWings]

WOW!! You didn't address most of what I said but you expect me to address all of your questions, to your satifaction, or you will just consider the conversation a dead end? Well, perhaps it is then; but for different reasons. But either way, I hope you find my answers clear and direct, even if you don't find them satisfactory.  :msealed:

Not WOW at all :icon_jokercolor: I ask a question. I don't get the answer what I was after. I could ask the same question again. Or I just take a detour to get to the question I originally asked.
That's not ignoring your answers that 'building' on them. Or answering them with a question based on that answer.
Your last post brought me a lot closer to the answer I was waiting for.

Quote
e] Would it make a difference for that duration if Jesus never existed?

That's like asking if it would make a difference if God never created the world to begin with. Isn't it? Jesus was part of the plan long before we were.

A scenerio in which "Jesus never existed" doesn't exist.

An here I disagree. (I agree on a, b and d. Doubt on c)

The wages is death. Eternal death. BUT because God had/has a plan it's no longer eternal.
And the core of that plan is of course Jesus. And that's very different from saying "assume the world was never created."

And in case you wonder why I (still) write eternal death.
No one comes to the Father then through the Son.
So IF the Son wasn't there we would never reach the Father.
And that means we eternally stay in the state of "wages of sin is death"
Jesus saved us from being dead forever. Not for only a lifetime (or less)

[Chris]

WOW!! You didn't address most of what I said but you expect me to address all of your questions, to your satifaction, or you will just consider the conversation a dead end? Well, perhaps it is then; but for different reasons. But either way, I hope you find my answers clear and direct, even if you don't find them satisfactory.  :msealed:

Not WOW at all :icon_jokercolor: I ask a question. I don't get the answer what I was after. I could ask the same question again. Or I just take a detour to get to the question I originally asked.
That's not ignoring your answers that 'building' on them. Or answering them with a question based on that answer.
Your last post brought me a lot closer to the answer I was waiting for.

I wasn't talking about your questions, I was talking about how you ended the post after asking the questions. I have no problem with you asking me questions or with you asking me additional questions if the answers you got were not helpful to you.  :thumbsup: I was talking about how you ended the post (after the questions).

As far as ignoring my questions. I never accused of you ignoring my questions, I simply pointed out that you did not address everything I said in reply #45; you said so yourself in post #46 when you said you were just "snipping" parts of it to ask me questions. Right?

So I did not accuse you of ignoring my questions, but you did skip over much of my post and only addressed a small part of it. I replied to all of your questions anyway and did not even go back to what you had skipped over. So I was just confused by the fact that you inferred that I am not giving you clear answers to your questions and so ended your post by telling me that "if I don't" give you "clear" answers then you'll just consider this conversation a "dead end".

I'm not trying to be "touchy" about it; I just thought it was a bit odd and wondered why such a comment was even warranted, since I have not evaded any of your questions; I have given what I feel are pretty clear and direct answers to all of them.

That was all.

Quote
e] Would it make a difference for that duration if Jesus never existed?

That's like asking if it would make a difference if God never created the world to begin with. Isn't it? Jesus was part of the plan long before we were.

A scenerio in which "Jesus never existed" doesn't exist.

An here I disagree. (I agree on a, b and d. Doubt on c)

The wages is death. Eternal death. BUT because God had/has a plan it's no longer eternal.
And the core of that plan is of course Jesus. And that's very different from saying "assume the world was never created."

And in case you wonder why I (still) write eternal death.
No one comes to the Father then through the Son.
So IF the Son wasn't there we would never reach the Father.
And that means we eternally stay in the state of "wages of sin is death"
Jesus saved us from being dead forever. Not for only a lifetime (or less)

I have never said that there is any other way to the Father but through the Son, but you asked "what if" Jesus never existed and I stand by my answer. There is no scenario in which Christ does not exist, so there is no "what if" to ponder.

The scriptures do not say "the wage of sin is eternal death".  

The wage of sin IS DEATH.

What "death" is brought about by sin?

Jas 1:13-15 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Is that taking about annihilation? Is this even talking about anything that is connected with our physical death in any way? Where, how, why and when do we suffer this "death"? Is it not IN THIS LIFE while we are prisoners of "the body of this death", subject to "the lust of THE FLESH" and "the things of THIS world"?

There is no scenario in which Christ does not exist, WhiteWings. Before God ever created this world or anything in it His plan to make man in His image and after His likeness included not only the penalty for sin that men would suffer in this world (death) but their salvation from it (Christ).

Men are not and never were "at risk" of being LOST or DEAD "forever". Our salvation was assured from the very foundation of the world. There is no such thing as "eternal death".

That which IS "eternal" comes FROM He who IS "eternal". No?

Eternal LIFE - comes FROM GOD (who IS eternal). No?

Eternal PUNISHMENT - comes FROM GOD (who IS eternal). No?

Everlasting MERCY  - comes FROM GOD (who IS eternal). No?

The scriptures speak of eternal LIFE, eternal POWER, eternal GLORY, eternal SALVATION, eternal JUDGMENT, eternal REDEMPTION, the eternal SPIRIT, our eternal INHERITANCE, even eternal FIRE.

But not once does it speak of eternal DEATH.

Death does not come FROM GOD. Does it?

Physical death is the consequence of our MORTALITY (not sin).

And MORTALITY (through which death comes) is swallowed up OF LIFE.

The last enemy (destroyed) IS DEATH.

Yes, it is destroyed by the death and RESURRECTION of Jesus Christ, but there is still no "what if Jesus never existed". Jesus was always part of the plan. And the "death" that we suffer as a result of sin has nothing to do with physical death and, therefore, could never result in "annihilation".

THE SPIRIT RETURNS TO GOD WHO GAVE IT! No?

[Universalist Catholic]

I believe that this hell is simply a cleansing process, and every punishment is all necessary.  So, no poking of demons, or torture just for the fun of it.  If I am correct, the pain most likely would be humiliation, and having your sins burned away. 

[WhiteWings]

I wasn't talking about your questions, I was talking about how you ended the post after asking the questions.

Perhaps the end of my post sounded more blunt than it was intended.
All I was try to say if after a certain number of posts there is no progress made in understanding eachothers questions and/or answers there comes a point I call it a dead end.

As far as ignoring my questions. I never accused of you ignoring my questions, I simply pointed out that you did not address everything I said in reply #45; you said so yourself in post #46 when you said you were just "snipping" parts of it to ask me questions. Right?

Yes I only "used" the parts that seemed relevant to me. That's part of the reason I wrote snipped.
But also a (vague) way saying I did read them. Plus if you have a general look at all my 4800+ posts you see that I regulary snip posts. I think snipped posts make things more readeble.

I have never said that there is any other way to the Father but through the Son,

I never claimed that.

but you asked "what if" Jesus never existed and I stand by my answer. There is no scenario in which Christ does not exist, so there is no "what if" to ponder.

That "what if" scenario is just a way of explaining.

The scriptures do not say "the wage of sin is eternal death". 
The wage of sin IS DEATH.

Agreed. It doesn't say eternal. But neither does it say 'for a lifetime'.
The proof that death is not eternal is, well read a UR book of your choice.
For me the proof that death was eternal is that by the death and resurrection of Jesus the power of death was/is defeated.

The two underlined words are very important in what I'm trying to say.
And yes the plan to overcome death was made even before the first death occured.
So in reality not one person will suffer the eternal death.
But IMO that isn't because it doesn't exist but because the Lamb was slain at the foundation of the world. So eternal death was overcome before even Adam was made.

Bit more snipping... :winkgrin:

There is no scenario in which Christ does not exist, WhiteWings. Before God ever created this world or anything in it His plan to make man in His image and after His likeness included not only the penalty for sin that men would suffer in this world (death) but their salvation from it (Christ).

Men are not and never were "at risk" of being LOST or DEAD "forever". Our salvation was assured from the very foundation of the world. There is no such thing as "eternal death".

Good we seem to agree on something :grin:
But my conclusion of what death is, was or never was if you like, is still eternal.

That which IS "eternal" comes FROM He who IS "eternal". No?
Eternal LIFE - comes FROM GOD (who IS eternal). No?

Yes. Yes

Eternal PUNISHMENT - comes FROM GOD (who IS eternal). No?

No. Punishment ends.

Everlasting MERCY  - comes FROM GOD (who IS eternal). No?

Yes.

Have me made any progress in this post Chris? Or are we at a dead end? :icon_jokercolor:

[Chris]

WhiteWings,

Why do you say that eternal punishment doesn't come from God just because it ends? When a parent punished their child, that punishment still comes from the parent, even though the punishment ends. And is it not GOD who is "chastening" HIS CHILDREN?

The fire that rained down from heaven for the punishment/destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah was FROM GOD, was it not? Or would you say that "the wrath of God" (poured out on the disobedient, as they suffer "the vengeance of eternal fire") does NOT come from God?

Do you believe in soul sleep WhiteWings? Because that is the only way that I can see how someone can also believe that "death" can be "eternal", as you would have to also believe that one ceases to live when they physically die and that it is, therefore, possible (theoretically) for someone to remain "eternally" dead.

If that is the case, then perhaps that is why we are speaking past each other. Because you (it seems) connect the penalty for sin to PHYSICAL death and, therefore (it seems) believe that "life" ENDS at physical death.

I, on the other hand, do not believe that life ends at PHYSICAL death; I believe that THE SPIRIT (in which LIFE IS) returns to God who gave it when THE FLESH (which profits nothing) returns to the dust of the ground from which it came.

I know that some will say that I am now "in bed with the churches of today"  :laughing7: because I believe in "the immortality of the soul" when "only Christ has immortality", but it is by being clothed WITH CHRIST that THIS MORTAL has "put on" IMMORTALITY. That has nothing to do with being "unclothed" (dying physically) according to the scriptures.

The "death" that men suffer due to sin is the same death Adam suffered in the garden (that was passed on TO ALL MEN) and that death was not his PHYSICAL death (which comes because men are MORTAL) but the fact that he was cast out of the garden to till the ground from which he came and no longer walked with God. It is THIS "death" that was passed on to all men. We ARE DEAD even while we "live" (physically).

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. 

How, why and when?

When sin is finished.

Jas 1:13-15 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

This "death" is experienced HERE (IN THE EARTH), while men are PHYSICALLY alive.

When we die THE FLESH returns to dust (from which is came) and THE SPIRIT returns to God (from which it came).

The only argument that you can possibly have against that (which is the same one I used to have when I believed in soul sleep) is that "the soul" goes to hades/sheol and awaits "the resurrection of the dead" and, therefore, if that resurrection never happens, then that soul (theoretically) suffers "eternal death".

The problem with that is the "death" that is suffered by men due to sin (the soul that sinneth, it shall die) has nothing to do with physical death and what happens to "the soul" when we die physically.

Adam was made A LIVING SOUL when God breathed THE BREATH OF LIFE into Him. This is a picture of God breathing LIFE (via THE HOLY SPIRIT) into those who are "dead" (after a spiritual truth) to give them LIFE (after a spiritual truth). This applies to THE LIVING (who are "dead" IN SIN) not to the corpses of men that have long since died, physically.

If Paul turned men over to satan FOR THE DESTRUCTION OF THE FLESH that their SPIRIT might be saved in the day of the Lord and THE SPIRIT RETURNS TO GOD who gave it when men die then how can the penalty for sin be "eternal death"?

THE SPIRIT will ALWAYS return to God, from whom it came, regardless of the fact that we might live our entire lives DEAD IN SIN, never having know God or Jesus Christ (which is what it means TO HAVE "eternal life"). No?

You'd have to claim (as I once did) that THE SPIRIT has nothing to do with the souls of men, that it is nothing but the spirit OF GOD and it is HIS SPIRIT (only) that returns TO HIM when men die... and "the soul" goes to the grave/hades/sheol. But to believe that is to miss (as I did) that it is THE SPIRIT that is quickened/saved and the physical grave is nothing more than a TYPE of "the body of this dead" that we are all prisoners of and need redemption from, in which OUR LIFE (CHRIST) IS HID.

We ARE DEAD (spiritually) even while we LIVE (physically).

This is "the death" that is "the wages of sin".

It has nothing to do with our physical death or with what happens to us when we die physically. When we die PHYSICALLY the flesh returns to dust and the spirit returns to God... and there is no "and the soul goes to hades to wait to be resurrected". We ARE "souls" (nephesh = "a breathing creature") and, as such we can either be ALIVE (having OUR SPIRIT quickened by God) OR DEAD (in sin). But this all happens "here" (IN THE EARTH, wherein both the righteous and the sinner/wicked are recompensed).

This is why I still stand by my statement that is no such thing as "annihilation" or "eternal death".

So I'll let you decide if we have hit a dead end here.  :winkgrin:

:girlheart:

[WhiteWings]

Why do you say that eternal punishment doesn't come from God just because it ends? When a parent punished their child, that punishment still comes from the parent, even though the punishment ends. And is it not GOD who is "chastening" HIS CHILDREN?

Agreed both God and 'the parent' chasten their children. But not eternally.

The fire that rained down from heaven for the punishment/destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah was FROM GOD, was it not? Or would you say that "the wrath of God" (poured out on the disobedient, as they suffer "the vengeance of eternal fire") does NOT come from God?

It came from God but it was age-during fire. Not eternal.

Do you believe in soul sleep WhiteWings? Because that is the only way that I can see how someone can also believe that "death" can be "eternal", as you would have to also believe that one ceases to live when they physically die and that it is, therefore, possible (theoretically) for someone to remain "eternally" dead.

I'm not sure about soulsleep. Before Jesus I would say yes. (but not 100% sure) After Jesus... 50/50 I think.
But this topic has nothing to do with soul sleep. Asking that question unfortunately shows you still don't understand me.
Because what I wrote is totally unrelated with my views on soulsleep.

If that is the case, then perhaps that is why we are speaking past each other. Because you (it seems) connect the penalty for sin to PHYSICAL death and, therefore (it seems) believe that "life" ENDS at physical death.

If there is spiritual and physical life then indeed life can end twice. A could write down my answer about spiritual death again; but I think that a bit useless.

I, on the other hand, do not believe that life ends at PHYSICAL death; I believe that THE SPIRIT (in which LIFE IS) returns to God who gave it when THE FLESH (which profits nothing) returns to the dust of the ground from which it came.

Sorry to say this again but that not relevant.

I know that some will say that I am now "in bed with the churches of today"  :laughing7: because I believe in "the immortality of the soul" when "only Christ has immortality", but it is by being clothed WITH CHRIST that THIS MORTAL has "put on" IMMORTALITY. That has nothing to do with being "unclothed" (dying physically) according to the scriptures.

I don't care if you are or are not in bed with church. Neither does it matter in this discussion, if the Bible says a spirit returns to God instantly of after 5 billion year of soulsleep. That's partly why I snipped parts of your previous posts.
They would only sidetrack the thread. But now I've peaked at teh end of the message and because we are at an eternaly dead end I mention it. :laughing7:

The only argument that you can possibly have against that (which is the same one I used to have when I believed in soul sleep) is that "the soul" goes to hades/sheol and awaits "the resurrection of the dead" and, therefore, if that resurrection never happens, then that soul (theoretically) suffers "eternal death".

Chris that's not relevant because the discussion was about eternal death. And even 5 billion years is not eternal.

If Paul turned men over to satan FOR THE DESTRUCTION OF THE FLESH that their SPIRIT might be saved in the day of the Lord and THE SPIRIT RETURNS TO GOD who gave it when men die then how can the penalty for sin be "eternal death"?

It not only can be eternal death. It is. But lets say Jesus has undone that.
Look at it this way. In some countries it's custom that at the birthday of the king a few prisoners get amnesty.
Say their sentence was 10 year and they arived in jail yesterday. Then the wages of their crimes still is 10 year of prison but the king undone that 10 years. 10 years=eternal. Jesus=King

So I'll let you decide if we have hit a dead end here.  :winkgrin:

:BangHead: :BangHead: :BangHead:

[sheila]

 then why a hell at all?

  because He was slain before the foundation of the earth..

  because he was assigned a grave with the wicked in his death

  Psalms 16;10 because you will not abandon me to the grave

  Psalms 18;5 the coils of the grave coiled around me; the snares of death confronted me.


  Psalms 16;3  for great is your love toward me; you have delivered me from the depths of the grave

  Psalms 88;3 for my soul is full of trouble and my life draws near the grave,I am counted among those who go down to the pit.

   Psalms 89;48  what man can live and not see death, or save himself from the power of the grave?

  Psalms 139;8  if I go up to the heavens,you are there, if I make my bed in hell,you are there.

   Proverbs 1;12  let's swallow them alive,like the grave,and whole,like those who go down to the pit

  Proverbs 15;24 the path of life leads upward for the wise, to keep him from going down to the grave

  Proverbs 23;14 PUNISH HIM WITH THE ROD AND SAVE HIS SOUL FROM DEATH

  Isaaih 5;14 therefore the grave enlRGES IT'S APPETITE AND

OPENS IT'S MOUTH WITHOUT LIMIT.

  Isaaih 7;11 ask the Lord your God for a sign, WHETHER IN THE DEEPEST DEPTHS OR THE HIGHEST HEIGHTS

   Hosea 13;14  I will ransom them from the POWER OF THE GRAVE

Jonah 2;2  "in my distress I called to the Lord, and He answered

me.From THE DEPTHS OF THE GRAVE I CALLED FOR HELP

AND YOU LISTENED TO MY CRY.....the earth beneath barred me

in forever.BUT..YOU brought MY life UP from the PIT,O'LORD

MY GOD



  because God has said,

   NEVER WILL I LEAVE YOU; NEVER WILL I FORSAKE YOU


   FOR LOVE IS AS STRONG AS DEATH,IT"S JEALOUSY

  AS UNYEILDING AS THE GRAVE


   Mt 10;28  do not be afraid of those who can kill the body but can not kill the soul,Rather, be afraid of the One who can  destroy both soul and body in hell

  Luke 4;34 ...did you come to destroy us? I know who you are,the Holy one of God

   Luke 6;9 I ask you;which is lawful on the Sabbath; to do good or evil, to save a soul or destroy it

  Mt 12;11  If ANY of you has a sheep,and it fall into a pit...

ON THE SABBATH..WILL YOU not take hold of it

   and LIFT IT OUT?

[Chris]

Agreed both God and 'the parent' chasten their children. But not eternally.

No it doesn't last forever. But I asked if it doesn't come FROM GOD (who IS eternal) and you said NO? Why did you say no, then?

It is still CALLED "eternal fire". Isn't it? So what does "eternal" MEAN if it has nothing to do with "how long" the fire/punishment lasts?

It came from God but it was age-during fire. Not eternal.

Agreed, but it is still called "eternal fire". Is it not? 

I'm not sure about soulsleep. Before Jesus I would say yes. (but not 100% sure) After Jesus... 50/50 I think.
But this topic has nothing to do with soul sleep. Asking that question unfortunately shows you still don't understand me.
Because what I wrote is totally unrelated with my views on soulsleep.

How can it not be related to the doctrine of soul sleep?

If the penalty for sin is ETERNAL DEATH and ALL MEN SIN then ALL MEN suffer ETERNAL DEATH for their sins. Right?

So if Jesus never existed (which was your "what if") then what happens when we physically die? We die and what? We "are dead" and will continue to BE DEAD "forever" (eternally) because there is NO RESURRECTION.

Isn't that what you are claiming; that the penalty for sin is ETERNAL DEATH, with NO RESURRECTION, which means that when we die (physically) we CEASE TO EXIST... FOREVER?

So then without Christ (your "what if") soul sleep has to be 100% true, according to what you are claiming about the penalty for sin, so how can you not be sure of that? And how can it not be relevant to this topic?

If it is FROM PHYSICAL DEATH (or SOUL SLEEP) that we are "resurrected" and we cannot BE RESURRECTED "if Christ never existed", then how can you not believe in soul sleep, when that is the very thing that you tying to "the penalty for sin" (eternal death) and "the resurrection of the dead"?

But, you are saying, because Christ DOES exist there is A RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD. No?

A resurrection of the dead FROM WHAT?

Your claim is FROM ETERNAL DEATH (permanent "soul sleep", so to speak). Is it not? 

If there is spiritual and physical life then indeed life can end twice. A could write down my answer about spiritual death again; but I think that a bit useless.

What life "can" end twice? You are talking about two different kinds of "life" and we ALL suffer the death OF BOTH. We are ALL DEAD spiritually, are we not? And we ALL DIE physically, do we not? So we all die TWICE if you count BOTH, but only ONCE to each.

However, the scriptures speak of those who are TWICE DEAD and yet they are PHYSICALLY ALIVE, so what do we do with that?  :grin:

I, on the other hand, do not believe that life ends at PHYSICAL death; I believe that THE SPIRIT (in which LIFE IS) returns to God who gave it when THE FLESH (which profits nothing) returns to the dust of the ground from which it came.

Sorry to say this again but that not relevant.

I think you are missing my point and the reason why I am pointing out that it is OUR SPIRIT that God bears witness to and OUR SPIRIT that is quickened/saved and THE SPIRIT that RETURNS TO GOD when we die.

Everyone who I know who believes in soul sleep (which is why I asked and why I brought up THE SPIRIT being saved/quickened) believes that "the spirit" that returns to God is HIS SPIRIT; that it is nothing more that "the spirit" that gives life to "the body", making THE BODY + THE SPIRIT = A LIVING SOUL.

So they claim (just as I once did) that when we die GOD'S SPIRIT returns to God and THE BODY returns to dust and THE SOUL is "dead" (or "asleep" = soul sleep) UNTIL God puts HIS SPIRIT back into THE BODY (= the resurrection of the dead) making us A LIVING SOUL - AGAIN - this time IMMORTAL.

The only way that can be true is if soul sleep is true. Right?

And the only way that "eternal death" can be the wages of sin is if "soul sleep" is also true. Right?

Yet you say you are not sure about soul sleep? How can one be true and not the other? How does one suffer eternal death if soul sleep is not true? Likewise, if soul sleep is not true, then how can eternal death be the penalty for sin?

Which is why I brought up THE SPIRIT. How can soul sleep be true if it is OUR SPIRIT that God bears witness to, that God quickens, and that God saves and THE SPIRIT RETURNS TO GOD when we die? And if the spirit returns to God when we die then how can the penalty for sin be eternal death?

I don't care if you are or are not in bed with church. Neither does it matter in this discussion, if the Bible says a spirit returns to God instantly of after 5 billion year of soulsleep. That's partly why I snipped parts of your previous posts.
They would only sidetrack the thread. But now I've peaked at teh end of the message and because we are at an eternaly dead end I mention it. :laughing7:

Can you show me where the bible says that the spirit does not return to God until billions of years of soul sleep?   

The only argument that you can possibly have against that (which is the same one I used to have when I believed in soul sleep) is that "the soul" goes to hades/sheol and awaits "the resurrection of the dead" and, therefore, if that resurrection never happens, then that soul (theoretically) suffers "eternal death".

Chris that's not relevant because the discussion was about eternal death. And even 5 billion years is not eternal.

Which is why I said "if that resurrection never happens".

Is that not what you are claiming, WhiteWings? That we would be DEAD FOREVER - IF THERE IS NO RESURRECTION (and Jesus PROVIDED that resurrection... and WITHOUT JESUS there would be NO RESURRECTION = ETERNAL DEATH)?

So then "eternal death" CANNOT EXIST without SOUL SLEEP. No?

But you claim you are not sure about SOUL SLEEP? So how can you be sure about ETERNAL DEATH?

One CANNOT suffer "eternal death" unless they are either annihilated WITHOUT THE NEED FOR A RESURRECTION FIRST... or they suffer death AND ARE NEVER RESURRECTED.

In the latter case soul sleep HAS TO BE TRUE and in the former case a resurrection (and, therefore, Jesus) IS NOT REQUIRED.

Don't you see that?

If Paul turned men over to satan FOR THE DESTRUCTION OF THE FLESH that their SPIRIT might be saved in the day of the Lord and THE SPIRIT RETURNS TO GOD who gave it when men die then how can the penalty for sin be "eternal death"?

It not only can be eternal death. It is. But lets say Jesus has undone that.
Look at it this way. In some countries it's custom that at the birthday of the king a few prisoners get amnesty.
Say their sentence was 10 year and they arived in jail yesterday. Then the wages of their crimes still is 10 year of prison but the king undone that 10 years. 10 years=eternal. Jesus=King

You are missing my point entirely.

What you are saying about the wages of sin being "eternal death" can only be true if soul sleep is true.

This connects the penalty for sin TO PHYSICAL DEATH because you are saying that if Jesus never existed then when we die PHYSICALLY there is NO RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD, so we REMAIN DEAD - FOREVER.

But in order to believe that you have to believe that Adam/man WAS IMMORTAL to begin with and the penalty for sin IS MORTALITY = PHYSICAL DEATH.

But if you say THAT then you are DENYING that ONLY CHRIST HAS IMMORTALITY.

LIFE AND IMMORTALITY comes through THE LAST ADAM (Christ) NOT THE FIRST. Correct?

So if Adam was MORTAL and ALREADY DYING PHYSICALLY (God said: "DYING, THOU DOST DIE"), then the penalty for sin was NEVER physical death and it is in NO WAY connected to it; so then neither can THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD be connected to it.

How can it be? It has to be connected to THE DEATH that Adam/man died DUE TO SIN.

And if the wages of sin IS NOT SOUL SLEEP then it CANNOT result in ETERNAL DEATH, can it?

And since THE SPIRIT RETURNS TO GOD WHO GAVE IT... including the spirit of those who ARE DEAD (IN SIN) never having known LIFE (in THIS world)... how can soul sleep be true?

So I'll let you decide if we have hit a dead end here.  :winkgrin:

:BangHead: :BangHead: :BangHead:

The spirit of God speaking through you, no doubt?  :sigh:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Shiela... :hithere:

:hijacked:  :robinhood:  Don't mean to "sidetrack" the discussion...   :Oops:

But, much thanks to you for your post sis... :ty:

God used your post and these words below to (further) cement something I have believed for over 30 years!  Thank you for posting it... and praise Him for YOU using HIS WORD which says:

Mt 12;11  If ANY of you has a sheep,and it fall into a pit...

ON THE SABBATH..WILL YOU not take hold of it

and LIFT IT OUT?

I believe (and have for 30+ years) that JESUS rose on the SABBATH day, 3 days and 3 nights after His crucifixtion... and that HE (and His resurrection of LIFE, victorious over DEATH) is the BLESSING with which GOD "blessed" the SABBATH day... from the FOUNDATION of the WORLD -- Rev 13:8 -- RISING from the grave [pit] on the DAY of YHVH, the SABBATH -- Isaiah 66:22-23 -- Matt 12:8 -- Luke 6:5

Ex 20:11 -- for in six days YHVH made heaven and earty, the sea and all that in them is, and rested the SEVENTH day: wherefore YHVH -- BLESSED -- the SABBATH day -- and HALLOWED it. [made it Holy]

:Peace:

...willieH  :cloud9:

[sheila]

 :thumbsup:

[Chris]

Hey Willie!

I dreamed about your post all night last night and I kept waking up to the same thought/question over and over again with regard to THE SABBATH and how the writer of Hebrews said that while GOd limited THE SEVENTH DAY unto the Jews (according to THE LAW) that He limited ANOTHER DAY unto believers, calling it TODAY (when we hear His voice and harden not our hearts).

This is ~THE DAY~ that we ENTER INTO HIS REST (the true SABBATH), the DAY that he spoken of when He said to the thief on the cross TODAY shalt thou be with me IN PARADISE!!  as that is WHERE/WHEN we find THE TREE OF LIFE!!  :bowing:

I was also wondering if you were speaking of THE SABBATH as THE SEVENTH DAY in relation to THE LAW?

Or how THE FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK (= THE EIGHT DAY = THE BEGINNING OF A NEW CREATION??) might factor into that?

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Chris... :hithere:

This might take a mite of Splainin' Chris!  :laughing7:  So please forgive me if this Splainin" seems a bit long winded,  :blush: ...but DETAIL is necessary if one desires to note the TRUTH... (which is my desire, and which is STILL, a "work in process"  :mblush:)

You (and/or anyone else) are welcome to disagree with what I have to say below, I have no problem with that... as we are all learning as we go...  :Book: ...but this is how I see it...  :reachout:

And sorry if this sidetracks the thread...  :Oops:

Hey Willie!

I dreamed about your post all night last night and I kept waking up to the same thought/question over and over again with regard to THE SABBATH and how the writer of Hebrews said that while GOd limited THE SEVENTH DAY unto the Jews (according to THE LAW) that He limited ANOTHER DAY unto believers, calling it TODAY (when we hear His voice and harden not our hearts).

The "limitation" as I see it, is the SABBATH that was UNFULFILLED in and by the JEWS (which were the 1st and NATURAL "people" of God)... YHVH often noted His discontent with the JEWS which had the LAW but continued to FAIL to keep that HOLY standard...

The "today" mentioned in Heb 4, is the SABBATH FULFILLED in and by CHRIST...

The "today" is seen in those which FOLLOW the "NATURAL" in divine order, and which are SPIRITUAL -- 1 Cor 15:46 -- and which KNOW CHRIST and are come to REST in the SPIRITUAL SABBATH that is the WORD FULFILLED by Him...

NOT another day ["eighth day"/FIRST DAY]... but the SABBATH [7th day] FULFILLED...

This is ~THE DAY~ that we ENTER INTO HIS REST (the true SABBATH), the DAY that he spoken of when He said to the thief on the cross TODAY shalt thou be with me IN PARADISE!!  as that is WHERE/WHEN we find THE TREE OF LIFE!!  :bowing:

I was also wondering if you were speaking of THE SABBATH as THE SEVENTH DAY in relation to THE LAW?

Or how THE FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK (= THE EIGHT DAY = THE BEGINNING OF A NEW CREATION??) might factor into that?

As I observe the process, I do not see an "8th" day... I see the completion (omega) of the REVELATION of the Creation is the DAY [SABBATH] of YHVH which is noted AS HIS DAY, in both the Old and New Testaments...  (btw, the SABBATH day, is that which proceeds from the heart of YHVH which does NOT CHANGE -- the idea of an "8th day" proposes a change - IMO)

The SABBATH is the "day" in which ALL come to CEASE in their WORK and thereby, REST in His WORK... Which occurs for each soul that enters into the SABBATH which IS the WORD, which IS CHRIST.

GRACE and LAW are lined up to one another...  LAW is FULFILLED in GRACE... and when GRACE fulfilled the LAW... the LAW no longer is an "indicator" of SIN, for GRACE has fulfilled the LAW for the "ALL" which could NOT FULFILL it... as PAUL noted:

Rom 7:10-11 --- and the commandment which was ordained to LIFE, I FOUND to be unto DEATH... for SIN taking occasion BY the commandment, DECIEVED ME and by IT [the law], slew me.

Paul continues to explain that the LAW which is HOLY, JUST and GOOD, was NOT given to KILL, but to REVEAL Sin, for what IT IS:

Rom 7:12-13 --- wherefore the LAW is Holy [pure] and the commandment HOLY, JUST and GOOD... was then that which is GOOD made DEATH unto me? [here it comes:] GOD FORBID! [in other words THIS is NOT what is happening at all!] --- But SIN ---> that IT might APPEAR SIN, working DEATH in me by that [the LAW] which IS GOOD.  That SIN by the LAW might become EXCEEDING SINFUL...

This whole discourse of Paul's in Rom 7, is a description of that which is happening within ALL MEN... We ARE ALL, the Children of the Most High... and are each placed BY HIM, in this setting to LEARN (via the REVELATION of EXPERIENCE) and thereby do LIVE, the KNOWLEDGE of G & E, and because this KNOWLEDGE is a LIVING KNOWLEDGE (for it EXISTS in the Heart of YHVH), it is being LIVED by the CHILDREN of YHVH before ALL that exist (the heavens and the earth)...

Many think that man "FELL" from Grace... and that the PURPOSE of YHVH is to redeem us from that "FALL"... which is (forgive me), NONSENSE...

The PURPOSE of YHVH is being LIVED by His Children... before ALL the Heavens and Earth displaying the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL before the Heavens and Earth...

In doing so, the JOY, GOOD, and WONDER of LIFE is REVEALED to ALL, and relates by that elevation and REVELATION to all -- that YHVH is LOVE, and that JOY and HARMONY are found within the practice of His noted standard of LIFE which is contained within the LIVING and FULFILLMENT of that standard (the LAW)... which the WORD OBEDIENTLY lived in and before YHVH, as well as in and before the presence of DISOBEDIENCE (all men), dispensing that DISOBEDIENCE forever... for ALL men shall be made ALIVE -- IN CHRIST -- 1 Cor 15:22 -- and IN CHRIST there is NO DISOBEDIENCE...

The prophet Isaiah noted these words about the "SABBATH"

Isaiah 66:22 --- for as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make shall remain BEFORE ME, saith YHVH, so shall your SEED [all men] and your name [CHRIST-- for ALL are IN CHRIST] remain... and it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from ONE SABBATH to another, shall ALL FLESH come to worship before Me...

As I see it, this Scripture is noting that in turn [due time] EACH MAN shall enter the SABBATH... and in the ETERNAL setting, that WORSHIP will be ETERNAL before HIM, for ALL come to REST [each in due time] in the SABBATH which is CHRIST...  
"
The "NEW" (noted "new" heavens and "new" earth) is not a "REPLACEMENT"  or "RE-creation idea"... it is the RETURN to that which NEVER CHANGES, ...from the OLD which shall DIE in each of us, and ALWAYS CHANGED...  Back to the "NEW" which always IS the WORD manifest IN us, ...ALIVE and NEVER CHANGES... :boogie:

I believe that JESUS CHRIST rose on the SABBATH of YHVH... and IN THAT RESURRECTION is the SABBATH found complete and CHRIST IS the "blessing" which made the SABBATH -- HOLY -- Ex 20:11  

The "DAY" of the YHVH is the "DAY" in which His WORK is found COMPLETED (the SABBATH)...

ALL things are COMPLETE in CHRIST -- Col 1:20 -- 1 Cor 15:28 -- and GOD's WORK is seen COMPLETE in Him... and therefore REST in that COMPLETED WORK...

The "new creation" is a SPIRITUAL one... God shall NEVER destroy His Creation for His Creation (IMO) is not really a "creation" as we observe it... It is a REVELATION of WHAT already IS...

ALL THINGS are "made" by the WORD -- John 1:3 -- the WORD never changes -- Heb 13:8 -- so everything which proceeds FROM IT (the "Creation") is proceeding from an entity which NEVER CHANGES, so in turn IT shall never change for it is PART OF, and PROCEEDS FROM, the WORD.

The KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL is proceeding FROM the HEART of YHVH God, and is EXPRESSED by Him, within His REVEALED WORD -- Heb 1:3 --

The WORD is a REVELATION of the  :HeartThrob: of YHVH... as IS the Creation which is also REVEALED in that process...

Hope that gives you a bit of how I presently see this...  :mfriends:  Sorry for standing on the  :soap: box for so long...  :mblush:

...willieH  :giveheart:

[rosered]

 

great posting  :thumbsup:.......

 saw this Jhn 12:1 Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead.  

  For me Jesus Christ is the Sabbath Day / Light of Day is come
  He is the rest , we seek after and to keep  Holy ..

 Jesus was sent in the fulness of time !!!

 Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knows the Son, but the Father;

neither knows any man the Father, save the Son, and [he] to whomsoever the Son will reveal [him].  


Mat 11:28   Come unto me, all [ye] that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.  


 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and you shall find rest unto your souls.  


  For my yoke [is] easy, and my burden is light.  
Sabbath /  Jesus Holy One / Day  made for man , not the  man made for the Sabbath /Jesus ..........

 :icon_flower:

[rosered]

    :thumbsup:  way to go Willie !  
you splained it well!!!!  :HeartThrob: ps wez were writing at the same time lol....

[peacemaker]

And in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease.

peacemaker

[Chris]

Hi Willie,

I have to re-read your post again, but I just wanted to point out that I was not calling "the eighth day" the "another day" which was spoken of with regard to THE SABBATH, as it called "TODAY" and I see that in relation to when we hear His voice and harden not our hearts and enter into HIS REST - through BELIEF.

Sorry if I gave you the impression that I was calling THE EIGHTH/FIRST DAY the SABBATH. Not at all.

I only mentioned the eighth day with regard to the fact that it was before "in the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week" when Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the sepulchre of Christ and found it empty and it was "in the eighth day" that "the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised".

I might have more to add after I re-read your post; have to go back to do that but wanted to clear that up and am running out of time before the Superbowl begins.... so GEAUX SAINTS!! Hope to get  back to this soon, though.

Thanks again!!

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Chris... :hithere:

Hi Willie,

I have to re-read your post again, but I just wanted to point out that I was not calling "the eighth day" the "another day" which was spoken of with regard to THE SABBATH, as it called "TODAY" and I see that in relation to when we hear His voice and harden not our hearts and enter into HIS REST - through BELIEF.

In speaking to the "thief"... He was just notifying "today" that the thief WOULD BE with Him IN PARADISE... it absolutely did NOT occur on the "today" of His crucifixtion for He was to spend 3 DAYS and 3 NIGHTS fulfilling the SIGN of the Prophet Jonah.

Also, even though resurrected, He had NOT ASCENDED to the Father, until after speaking with Mary, for He so noted this...

Sorry if I gave you the impression that I was calling THE EIGHTH/FIRST DAY the SABBATH. Not at all.

You didn't sis... I was just detailing that the SABBATH is something that shall NEVER CHANGE... for it is part of a LAW, as written in the WORD, which is UNCHANGING.

I only mentioned the eighth day with regard to the fact that it was before "in the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week" when Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the sepulchre of Christ and found it empty and it was "in the eighth day" that "the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised".

The "dawning" toward are the keywords... the 8th day had yet to arrive, for it was being "dawned toward"...

Also... CHRIST had already RISEN before they arrived at the tomb... They arrived on the "1st/8th day"... but that does not mean that He had RISEN on that day... only that upon their arrival on that day, He was already RISEN... :nod:

I might have more to add after I re-read your post; have to go back to do that but wanted to clear that up and am running out of time before the Superbowl begins.... so GEAUX SAINTS!! Hope to get  back to this soon, though.

Thanks again!!

Hey!  I'm for the Saints as well!  GEAUX SAINTS!  :bgdance:

Peace, sis...

...willieH   :HeartThrob:

[Chris]

willieH: Hi Chris... :hithere:

Hi Willie,

I have to re-read your post again, but I just wanted to point out that I was not calling "the eighth day" the "another day" which was spoken of with regard to THE SABBATH, as it called "TODAY" and I see that in relation to when we hear His voice and harden not our hearts and enter into HIS REST - through BELIEF.

In speaking to the "thief"... He was just notifying "today" that the thief WOULD BE with Him IN PARADISE... it absolutely did NOT occur on the "today" of His crucifixtion for He was to spend 3 DAYS and 3 NIGHTS fulfilling the SIGN of the Prophet Jonah.

I disagree. That would be extremely inconsistent with the way that Jesus spoke in every other instance recorded in the NT where He said: "Verily, I say unto thee, [fill in the appropriate blank]".

Jesus words are SPIRIT and they are LIFE and the truth is:

TODAY SHALT THOU BE WITH ME IN PARADISE!  :thumbsup:

Why? Because TODAY (when we hear His voice and harden not out hearts) is THE DAY OF THE LORD.

The TREE OF LIFE ~IS IN THE MIDST OF~ THE PARADISE OF GOD and it is ~WHEN WE HEAR HIS VOICE AND HARDEN NOT OUR HEARTS~ that we are able to PARTAKE OF THE TREE OF LIFE. NO?

It is A SPIRITUAL TRUTH that has nothing to do with Christ's PHYSICAL BODY being is A PHYSICAL GRAVE, as far as I can tell.

Christ FIRST DESCENDED before He ASCENDED and, spiritually speaking, Christ "first descended" (into the lowest parts of the earth) when the Word was MADE FLESH, not when he was crucified on the cross 33 years later.  And His earthly ministry was not over until He ASCENDED 40 days after His resurrection.

Also, even though resurrected, He had NOT ASCENDED to the Father, until after speaking with Mary, for He so noted this...

Are you claiming that Christ's blood had NOT YET been sprinkled on the mercy seat of God IN HEAVEN? Even THREE DAYS AFTER his blood was shed?

I think you are misunderstanding what Christ meant, as Christ did not ASCEND until He was received INTO A CLOUD 40 days after His resurrection.

Sorry if I gave you the impression that I was calling THE EIGHTH/FIRST DAY the SABBATH. Not at all.

You didn't sis... I was just detailing that the SABBATH is something that shall NEVER CHANGE... for it is part of a LAW, as written in the WORD, which is UNCHANGING.

Which has nothing to do with a physical rest entered into physically on a physical day, if we are talking spiritual truths and not the 'types' which merely pointed to them. No?

I only mentioned the eighth day with regard to the fact that it was before "in the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week" when Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the sepulchre of Christ and found it empty and it was "in the eighth day" that "the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised".

The "dawning" toward are the keywords... the 8th day had yet to arrive, for it was being "dawned toward"...

Also... CHRIST had already RISEN before they arrived at the tomb... They arrived on the "1st/8th day"... but that does not mean that He had RISEN on that day... only that upon their arrival on that day, He was already RISEN... :nod:

Something that was only MADE MANIFEST to them ~WHEN~ they SAW THE RISEN LORD.  :thumbsup:

I might have more to add after I re-read your post; have to go back to do that but wanted to clear that up and am running out of time before the Superbowl begins.... so GEAUX SAINTS!! Hope to get  back to this soon, though.

Thanks again!!

Hey!  I'm for the Saints as well!  GEAUX SAINTS!  :bgdance:

YEAH BABY!! SUPERBOWL CHAMPS!!! 

:bgdance: :boydance: :egyptdance: :boogie: :rocker :happyclap: :high5: :Party: :clapping: :cheerleader: :Gclap: :gguitar:

Peace, sis...

...willieH   :HeartThrob:

PEACE!  :thumbsup:

[richardinparadise]

I had someone ask me this today, and Im trying to think of a good way to word my response.

So then God has both already punished said sin in Christ yet these people who are/will be in hell will also pay that same debit for a period of time. How do you reconcile this, it is literally the definition of unjust, if Christ paid the sin for every one then why a hell at all?

The simple answer is that because Jesus paid the "death" penalty for sin and the penalty only had to be paid once, no one will ever receive punishment or "retribution" for their sins. When God judges our sin, His purpose is positive, not negative, it is for the purpose of correction and guidance, not retribution. This is true for both Christians and non-Christions alike.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Chris... :hithere:

Hi Willie,

I have to re-read your post again, but I just wanted to point out that I was not calling "the eighth day" the "another day" which was spoken of with regard to THE SABBATH, as it called "TODAY" and I see that in relation to when we hear His voice and harden not our hearts and enter into HIS REST - through BELIEF.

In speaking to the "thief"... He was just notifying "today" that the thief WOULD BE with Him IN PARADISE... it absolutely did NOT occur on the "today" of His crucifixtion for He was to spend 3 DAYS and 3 NIGHTS fulfilling the SIGN of the Prophet Jonah.

I disagree. That would be extremely inconsistent with the way that Jesus spoke in every other instance recorded in the NT where He said: "Verily, I say unto thee, [fill in the appropriate blank]".

You are welcome to this perception sis, it is however not really conclusive.  JESUS did not say that everytime He spoke the word "verily" which means "truly", that in that moment would the TRUTH of which He spoke, immediately be manifest in TIME.

I won't get into great detail at this time, but there are many instances of the use of the word VERILY that did not equate to an IMMEDIATE manifestation... Here are a few:

Matt 5:18 -- the LAW had yet to be fulfilled, even though (it was TRUE that) when it WOULD BE fulfilled --- not 1 jot or tittle would be passed from it...

Matt 8:10 -- even though (it was TRUE to this point in time) that He had not seen such faith in Israel, did not mean He would NEVER see it manifest in ISRAEL...

I don't wish to spend too much time splitting hairs (or teeth)  :Sparkletooth: with the word "VERILY"...  You are welcome to believe what you wish...  :cloud9:

Jesus words are SPIRIT and they are LIFE and the truth is:

TODAY SHALT THOU BE WITH ME IN PARADISE!  :thumbsup:

FIRST -- I disagree...  :happygrin:

SECOND -- this is only PART of what He said...  And JESUS said unto him... "verily I say unto you TODAY... thou shalt be with Me in paradise"

In the original language this was written in,  PUNCTUATIONS did not exist.  Neither did chapter or verse designations... This did not mean that DIALOGUE that CHRIST spoke, did not have PUNCTUATION within it...

That there is an absent COMMA which would bring REASON to this statement, is IMO a given. (you are welcome to disagree, doesn't matter to me)

As I see it, ...It is UNREASONABLE for the SCRIPTURES to say that CHRIST DIED (BTW... the dead KNOW NOT ANYTHING -- Ecc 9:5)... as well as noting in several places such as -- AFTER 3 Days (or on the 3rd day) He would RISE from DEATH --- and then "a breath later" maintain that He entered PARADISE upon the moment of His DEATH, taking the THIEF to the promise that has been denied such as Moses, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Joseph, Jacob, etc [Heb 11 entire chapter]... This is contradictory.  

Either the witness in Scripture is truth... or it is not... The Scripture says HE TASTED DEATH for every man -- Heb 2:9 -- which means that He had to DIE as did any other man... many of which are listed as STILL DEAD later in Heb 11:13...

There are NO WITNESSES in the WORD which note Him as LIVING during the period of the 3 days that SCRIPTURE says He would be DEAD, and after those 3 days, RISE again...

Please name one.  Anything can be assumed by misunderstanding of Scripture elsewhere but please name ONE TESTIMONY of Him as ALIVE during these 3 days...

If you can come up with one, then the burden of explanation of that text is upon me... Until you prove otherwise sis, ...I just do not believe such a verse is in there...  :mnah:

Why? Because TODAY (when we hear His voice and harden not out hearts) is THE DAY OF THE LORD.

It is the "DAY" of YHVH... Not the day of the MAN, ...JESUS CHRIST... the MAN, JESUS CHRIST, died and was DEAD "in time" (completely inanimate and inactive) for 3 DAYS and 3 NIGHTS -- OF TIME... Matt 12:40 -- If CHRIST actually was NOT IN the TOMB AS was Jonah IN the belly of the "whale"... then this Scripture is (as are several others) a false witness.

CHRIST the man was NOT GOD... the WORD which permeated Him... was and IS.

The WORD cannot DIE and still be called UNCHANGING for if the WORD is indeed ALIVE (which it IS)... Then it is ALWAYS ALIVE...  CHRIST the MAN, DIED... the WORD which is YHVH GOD... remained ALIVE, and removed itself from Him before He DIED, ...SO... that He could DIE...

The WORD is that which is emergent from the HEART of YHVH God... it is the POWER of YHVH... it is NOT a separate "person" from Him... it is the PROJECTION of Himself (being silent and invisible) in "audible and visible" terms... it was ANIMATED and MADE observeable -- via the MAN, JESUS CHRIST...

The MAN, JESUS CHRIST -- 1 Tim 2:5 -- is the ONLY SON which did NOT do other than the WILL of the WORD within Him -- John 5:19 --

ALL other men, OPPOSE the "COMMAND/WILL" of YHVH, even though they are emergent FROM YHVH -- John 1:3 -- and that LIGHT/Will,  IS within them -- John 1:9

Christ FIRST DESCENDED before He ASCENDED and, spiritually speaking, Christ "first descended" (into the lowest parts of the earth) when the Word was MADE FLESH, not when he was crucified on the cross 33 years later.  And His earthly ministry was not over until He ASCENDED 40 days after His resurrection.

"Ascended"?   ...from WHERE, Chris?  You have maintained that He was ALREADY in PARADISE on the Day of His death! (with the "thief") :dontknow:

Also, even though resurrected, He had NOT ASCENDED to the Father, until after speaking with Mary, for He so noted this...

Are you claiming that Christ's blood had NOT YET been sprinkled on the mercy seat of God IN HEAVEN? Even THREE DAYS AFTER his blood was shed?

TIME is not necessary (3 "days" which requires "72 hrs" of time to elapse) in the TRUE understanding of this Chris.  

The WORD is ETERNAL... CHRIST was slain, before the WORLD began... the "BLOOD" was not placed upon the "mercy seat" on the DAY of the crucifixtion, ...IT was, is and always will be upon the mercy seat of YHVH... this ETERNAL UNCHANGING fact, ...did not (does not, will not) "need" manifestation of PHYSICAL things within TIME, in order to BE.

HOWEVER... the ORDINATIONS from ETERNITY which ALREADY always, ARE, ...occur as an ordered procession DECLARED by YHVH within the passing of CREATED TIME... GOD proclaimed the END from the BEGINNING... which includes ALL EVENTS and ALL MOMENTS in between those 2 points.  

But He has established those 2 points, to REVEAL the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL... one of which was the MOMENT CHRIST ...died... and REMAINED for the entirety of 3 COMPLETE days in time, which He spent INANIMATE as part of this realm --- within the TOMB...

It is the GLORY of GOD to recognize that HE does not require ANY works of MAN, within EVERY moment of man's history... to BE ...IN... those moments.  

GOD is "AS" -- "IN" yesterday as He is "IN" today, and as He already is, "IN" tomorrow...

As well as recognizing the fact that the "UNIQUE and MOVING procession of TIME", is ordained and emergent from HIM as the ISOLATED realm where is found the REVELATION of the KNOWLEDGE of G & E... contained within HIS HEART where LIVES, ...HIS WORD...

I think you are misunderstanding what Christ meant, as Christ did not ASCEND until He was received INTO A CLOUD 40 days after His resurrection.

I think it is you which are misunderstanding, dear one...

Wait a minute or 3!  :umnick:  ...I thought you believe that He "ascended" to PARADISE with the THIEF, on crucifixtion day?  :dunno:

Sorry if I gave you the impression that I was calling THE EIGHTH/FIRST DAY the SABBATH. Not at all.

You didn't sis... I was just detailing that the SABBATH is something that shall NEVER CHANGE... for it is part of a LAW, as written in the WORD, which is UNCHANGING.

The SABBATH in all aspects that it is... The COMPLETION of the "week", the COMPLETION of "salvation", the COMPLETION that is CHRIST, the COMPLETION that COMPLETES all things... is that which IS the SABBATH...

Just as UR is contained in the word chURch... the ABBA [alpha & omega] is contained in the word sABBAth -- I know these are English words... but there are NO COINCIDENCES concerning GOD...

Which has nothing to do with a physical rest entered into physically on a physical day, if we are talking spiritual truths and not the 'types' which merely pointed to them. No?

FIRST --- the "SABBATH" is the "DAY" of YHVH... which ALWAYS ...IS... it is the COMPLETION [perfection] of DAYS... it is the REST which is found in ALL things that REST in Him...  That it is shown to be the CULMINATION of the working of MAN, only notes that all WORK of man (6 days) (men = EXTENSIONS of YHVH), ...is/are found CONCLUDED in it.

SECOND --- It is a weekly picture or notation in TIME, of the journey ALL things take... each "beginning" by EMERGING from YHVH, and each concluding by ENDING in YHVH...

The ALPHA and OMEGA... the END... IS... the BEGINNING... and the BEGINNING... IS the END -- Rev 1:8 -- I AM [present tense] the ALPHA and OMEGA... the beginning and the end...

Here is the ETERNAL equation, Chris:  

:nod: The BEGINNING is the END = <<YHVH>> = The END is the BEGINNING :nod:

<<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>>

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

[thinktank]

Jesus spoke of Abrahams bossom, where did this idea come from?

[shawn]

I had someone ask me this today, and Im trying to think of a good way to word my response.

So then God has both already punished said sin in Christ yet these people who are/will be in hell will also pay that same debit for a period of time. How do you reconcile this, it is literally the definition of unjust, if Christ paid the sin for every one then why a hell at all?

Just because I am saved...it doesn't mean I'm except from the sometimes painful process of purification.  The act of purification should not be mixed with the notion of a punitive hell. 

[shawn]

its still confusing trying to explain how Jesus paid for everyones sins, yet most will still have to suffer temporarily for those sins. I realize there is a corrective aspect to it, and is the sole purpose behind it but still

If I sin I pay consequences for that sin.  Just because Jesus saved us from death doesn't mean he saved us from some of the temporal consequences of sin.  Those consequences purify us. 

Think of it this way.  A good father would never allow his children to be free from the consequences of bad behavior.  Why?  That is a form of abuse.  You are stealing teaching moments from your child to calm your own cognitive dissonance.   A good father allows his children to experience a certain amount of pain so they may learn. 

[shawn]

Thought i'd add my two cents about judgement and the lake of fire.  :bigGrin:
One man says that he asked God what happens in "hell" and God showed him. Here is a quote from his site:

Yes, there is a Hell. It is very uncomfortable, to say the least. It is not like Dante's inferno. It is not physical fire and brimstone; these are physical symbols of the spiritual, for example: "Our God is a consuming fire." Heb 12:29. There is also a burning within you to do something; the burning of lust, as described in Romans 1:27, but in a burning intensity greater than you have ever known. It is raging obsession. It is hyper sin city - complete mutual rage, complete mutual lust, etc. The brimstone, sulphur, (when burned sulphur produces sulphur dioxide, used for purification and bleaching), symbolizes a spiritual purification agent. I was taken there because I prayed, sincerely doubting there was a Hell. This is what I felt and saw:

1) I was in a cavern underground. It was totally dark. I knew I was being hunted by someone else. I knew I was hunting him. It was kill or be killed. There was a lot of fear and adrenalin. Suddenly it was light, and in front of me was the person I was hunting and who had been hunting me. We clubbed each other frantically. The light went out. I was in a cavern underground. It was totally dark. I knew I was being hunted ........ a loop that I felt like was going to go on forever.

2) I was then immediately transferred to a lighted cavern, escorted, with hallways and rooms off to the side. In each room was a nude woman and a bed. The only woman I saw was still somewhat attractive, but looked very tired and used to the point that her skin was beginning to dry and ripple slightly. I knew, without having to participate, that this was perpetual sex with someone in each room. I knew that this would go on, over and over and over and would at least seem like "forever." It was not appealing. It was not sickening. It just was. That was the end of my experience in Hell. It was enough to convince me it was real.

http://hallvworthington.com/hopeforall.html

I have also heard of another person seeing this type of experience in "hell". It would seem to me that maybe whatever sin a person is addicted to they have to become so sick of doing it that they would never want to do it again... I dunno, just my guess.  :dontknow:

I have seen it referred to as sin sick.  I have experienced it myself.  It seems the only way the Lord liberated me from certain vices was turning me over to them.  While they took their toll...he never let me go.

[richardinparadise]

If I sin I pay consequences for that sin.  Just because Jesus saved us from death doesn't mean he saved us from some of the temporal consequences of sin.  Those consequences purify us. 

Think of it this way.  A good father would never allow his children to be free from the consequences of bad behavior.  Why?  That is a form of abuse.  You are stealing teaching moments from your child to calm your own cognitive dissonance.   A good father allows his children to experience a certain amount of pain so they may learn. 

Very well put. The consequences teach us valuable lessons. They are not punitive, but corrective.