if Jesus paid for all sin, then why a hell at all?

[ibelongtoyoujesus]

I had someone ask me this today, and Im trying to think of a good way to word my response.

So then God has both already punished said sin in Christ yet these people who are/will be in hell will also pay that same debit for a period of time. How do you reconcile this, it is literally the definition of unjust, if Christ paid the sin for every one then why a hell at all?

http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/HumanDestiny/unbeliever.html

""Faith is but the channel of grace; it does not produce salvation. Judgment is but a means He uses, a process which leads to the opening of the unbeliever's eyes. It does not remove his guilt or cleanse a single sin. That is done wholly and solely by the blood of Christ.""

[lomarah]

Thought i'd add my two cents about judgement and the lake of fire.  :bigGrin:
One man says that he asked God what happens in "hell" and God showed him. Here is a quote from his site:

Yes, there is a Hell. It is very uncomfortable, to say the least. It is not like Dante's inferno. It is not physical fire and brimstone; these are physical symbols of the spiritual, for example: "Our God is a consuming fire." Heb 12:29. There is also a burning within you to do something; the burning of lust, as described in Romans 1:27, but in a burning intensity greater than you have ever known. It is raging obsession. It is hyper sin city - complete mutual rage, complete mutual lust, etc. The brimstone, sulphur, (when burned sulphur produces sulphur dioxide, used for purification and bleaching), symbolizes a spiritual purification agent. I was taken there because I prayed, sincerely doubting there was a Hell. This is what I felt and saw:

1) I was in a cavern underground. It was totally dark. I knew I was being hunted by someone else. I knew I was hunting him. It was kill or be killed. There was a lot of fear and adrenalin. Suddenly it was light, and in front of me was the person I was hunting and who had been hunting me. We clubbed each other frantically. The light went out. I was in a cavern underground. It was totally dark. I knew I was being hunted ........ a loop that I felt like was going to go on forever.

2) I was then immediately transferred to a lighted cavern, escorted, with hallways and rooms off to the side. In each room was a nude woman and a bed. The only woman I saw was still somewhat attractive, but looked very tired and used to the point that her skin was beginning to dry and ripple slightly. I knew, without having to participate, that this was perpetual sex with someone in each room. I knew that this would go on, over and over and over and would at least seem like "forever." It was not appealing. It was not sickening. It just was. That was the end of my experience in Hell. It was enough to convince me it was real.

http://hallvworthington.com/hopeforall.html

I have also heard of another person seeing this type of experience in "hell". It would seem to me that maybe whatever sin a person is addicted to they have to become so sick of doing it that they would never want to do it again... I dunno, just my guess.  :dontknow:

[martincisneros]

I had someone ask me this today, and Im trying to think of a good way to word my response.

So then God has both already punished said sin in Christ yet these people who are/will be in hell will also pay that same debit for a period of time. How do you reconcile this, it is literally the definition of unjust, if Christ paid the sin for every one then why a hell at all?

There's a difference between enforcing a penalty, and having a firm hand regarding obedience, hence the difference between grounding a child and spanking to where grounding is more a penalty while spanking is EMPHASIZING a point rather than necessarily a penalty.  Removal of priveleges isn't the same as "YOU WILL NOT DO THIS ANY MORE!" where words haven't been clear enough with the strong willed.  It's not a prison mentality, but if you'll excuse the pun, the breaking of an ass 'til they do what you want them to do, or 'til they do not do what you do not want them to do.  The value is often in the threat alone to bring the fear of the Lord and a new resolve to obey, rather than in His having ever delighted to inflict either penalty or punishment.

[Dallas]

But of course there is a lake of fire... fire is used for purifying, refining, and purging.  Just

because we are all saved doesn't mean we are all perfect right now

.

IMO We are all perfect now, behavior is no means in which to judge a person.

There's a difference between enforcing a penalty, and having a firm hand regarding obedience, hence the difference between grounding a child and spanking to where grounding is more a penalty while spanking is EMPHASIZING a point rather than necessarily a penalty.  Removal of priveleges isn't the same as "YOU WILL NOT DO THIS ANY MORE!" where words haven't been clear enough with the strong willed.  It's not a prison mentality, but if you'll excuse the pun, the breaking of an ass 'til they do what you want them to do, or 'til they do not do what you do not want them to do.  The value is often in the threat alone to bring the fear of the Lord and a new resolve to obey, rather than in His having ever delighted to inflict either penalty or punishment.

That's control abuse.

Bahavior is easily modified and thus quite easy to learn. The matter of the heart behind the behavior is the issue. The persons willingness to obey, or their fight to be broken, is a result of injury to their inner being.

God is not interested in beating people into obedience, but through the healing of the heart a man will find peace and love and relationship with Heavenly Father, not obedience and reward, but love and reward.

[lomarah]

But of course there is a lake of fire... fire is used for purifying, refining, and purging.  Just

because we are all saved doesn't mean we are all perfect right now

.

IMO We are all perfect now, behavior is no means in which to judge a person.

There's a difference between enforcing a penalty, and having a firm hand regarding obedience, hence the difference between grounding a child and spanking to where grounding is more a penalty while spanking is EMPHASIZING a point rather than necessarily a penalty.  Removal of priveleges isn't the same as "YOU WILL NOT DO THIS ANY MORE!" where words haven't been clear enough with the strong willed.  It's not a prison mentality, but if you'll excuse the pun, the breaking of an ass 'til they do what you want them to do, or 'til they do not do what you do not want them to do.  The value is often in the threat alone to bring the fear of the Lord and a new resolve to obey, rather than in His having ever delighted to inflict either penalty or punishment.

That's control abuse.

Bahavior is easily modified and thus quite easy to learn. The matter of the heart behind the behavior is the issue. The persons willingness to obey, or their fight to be broken, is a result of injury to their inner being.

God is not interested in beating people into obedience, but through the healing of the heart a man will find peace and love and relationship with Heavenly Father, not obedience and reward, but love and reward.

I sort of see what you mean Dallas but isn't that like saying a filthy person is already clean? Or a blind man can already see?

Hebrews 11:40 
God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Hebrews 12:23
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect

[friendofmankind]

I would say, there is a 'hell' (if thats what you want to call it, i personally wouldnt, hell means a 'covering', it is death, nothing more nothing less.  The word has been great misused and misunderstood), because those who are IN CHRIST and saved BY CHRIST and those NOT in CHRIST and NOT saved by CHRISTS blood...Yet...IE, they have NOT accepted the only name under heaven (yet) wherein men MUST BE SAVED. 

I believe this is why (and this is my personal view) 1 TIM 4: 9-11 says -

"...THE LIVING GOD, who is the savior of ALL men....especially believers."

Note 'the living GOD, IS the savior of ALL men'...NOT Jesus.  GOD.
Believers are ESPECIALLY saved because Christ has redeemed them, washed, etc by His innocent blood.

The rest will be saved by GOD...In the lake of fire, where they will undergo various things to conform them to the image of Christ, for as long as that may take.

Could Hitler have a worse fate??? Being saved by a Jew?  Cleansed by a Jew and redeemed by a Jew?  Loved eternally by a Jew and made in the image of Christ?!  Lol.

[Dallas]

hell means a 'covering'

Posted by: friendofmankind

Things will make alot more sense for you if you stop making stuff up. This is a figment of your imagination. If you have a source for your error, then i would strongly suggest realizing this source is crap.

[WhiteWings]

Deja vu...
Two crap sources. You can find several others on the main Tentmaker site.

Merriam-Webster
Etymology:Middle English, from Old English; akin to Old English helan to conceal, Old High German hella hell, helan to conceal, Old Norse hel heathen realm of the dead, Gothic halja hell, Latin celare to hide, conceal, Greek kalyptein to cover, conceal, Sanskrit Kara*a screening, protecting; basic meaning: concealing

Oxford English Dictionary
Forms: 1–7 hel, 1– hell, 2–6 helle.

[OE. hęl(l, obl. cases hęlle, str. fem. = OFris. helle, hille, OS. hellja, hella, MDu. helle, Du. hel), OHG. hella (MHG. helle, mod.G. hölle), ON. hel, gen. heljar, Goth. halja:—OTeut. *haljâ str. fem., lit. 'the coverer up or hider', f. hel-, hal-, hul- to hide, conceal, hele. In ON. also the proper name of the goddess of the infernal regions, 'the ogress Hel, the Proserpine of Scandinavian mythology' (Vigfusson).]

c 825 Vesp. Psalter liv. 16 [lv. 15] Cyme deað ofer hie and astiᴁen hie in helle lifᴁende.    c 1000 Ælfric Gen. xxxvii. 35 Ic fare to minum sunu to helle.    a 1340 Hampole Psalter xv. 10 Þou sall noght leue my saule in hell.    1382 Wyclif Gen. xlii. 38 Ȝe shulen lede doun myn hoore heeris with sorwe to helle.    1502 Ord. Crysten Men i. vii. (W. de W. 1506) 68 For before that he styed up in to the heuyns he dyscended in to the helles.    1529 More Suppl. Soulys Wks. 320/2 Descendit ad inferna: that is to say he discended down beneth into the lowe places. In stede of which low places ye english toung hath euer vsed thys word hel.    1535 Coverdale Job xiv. 13 O that thou woldest kepe me, and hyde me in the hell, vntill thy wrath were stilled.    ― Acts ii. 31 His soule was not left in hell [1881 R. V. Hades].    1649 Jer. Taylor Gt. Exemp. iii. Ad §16. 170 Our Lord descended into hell‥that is into the state of separation and common receptacle of spirits.    a 1748 Watts Improv. Mind ii. v. §2, I will explain the word hell to signify the state of the dead, or the separate state of souls‥and‥that the soul of Christ existed three days in the state of separation from his body, or was in the invisible world.    a 1848 R. W. Hamilton Rew. & Punishm. iii. (1853) 113 The real conception of hell, is that which is unseen, the invisible state.

[Paul Hazelwood]

hell means a 'covering'

Posted by: friendofmankind

Things will make alot more sense for you if you stop making stuff up. This is a figment of your imagination. If you have a source for your error, then i would strongly suggest realizing this source is crap.

You can find the origin of the word hell to mean "to cover or conceal" documented by any dictionary source.

From Websters

Etymology: Middle English, from Old English; akin to Old English helan to conceal,

Dictionary.com
Origin:
bef. 900; ME, OE hel(l); c. OHG hell(i)a (G Hölle), ON hel, Goth halja; akin to OE helan to cover, hide, and to hull 2

[Taffy]

hell means a 'covering'

Posted by: friendofmankind

Things will make alot more sense for you if you stop making stuff up. This is a figment of your imagination. If you have a source for your error, then i would strongly suggest realizing this source is crap.

Hi Dallas :icon_flower:

Youve been around these parts long enough to grasp the guidelines of posting..Plz adhere to them :icon_flower:

TY

[Dallas]

The word hell does not appear in the greek, or the hebrew.

The word hell was transliterated out of gehenna, sheol, hades, the grave/death and tartus. None of these words ever were penned as hell in the origonal languages. That was an invention of the Latin/Elizebethan, the same great scholars who also translated satyrs into the scriptures.

So does this mean there are half-man half-goat men are dancing around the woods playing flutes? Of course not, the word never should have made it into the bible, neither should the word hell. The true renditions of the words needed to be penned. The word satyr was the word beast, the same word translated everywhere else as cattle.

Instead of the word hell, the word gehenna, sheol, hades,tartus, death/grave never meant hell, which never should have become hell, the word hell holds the connotation to eternal punishment.

So when I say the word hell doesn't mean covering, I am refering to the fact that the "transliterated word hell" never was used as covering, so connecting the two is absolutley innapropriate.


1.Isaiah 13:21
But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and owls shall dwell there, and satyrs shall dance there.


2.Isaiah 34:14
The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest.

[Chris]

The word "hell" hold that connotation because it is that which has been attributed to it, not because that is what the word has always meant.

As certainly one is "covered" or "concealed" in a grave. Are they not.

And when it comes to LIFE, where is that life "HID"? Is it not WITHIN "the body of this death" that we need redemption from? 

[Chris]

I would answer, Christ by His sacrifice saved me from eternal death (i.e. annihilation) by defeating death and the devil who had power over death, therefore all men will gain everlasting life, however some will not be fit yet for paradise when they die or when Christ returns, therefore they have to been corrected in order that they may take their part in the world to come.

HI sven,

You believe that the penatly for sin is annihilation? If so, then how did Jesus "pay" that penalty?

[WhiteWings]

The wages of sin is death. If you stay dead you are annihilated.
Eternal death as Sven, imo, correctly states.
Jesus "payed" to change the eternal death to a temporary death (soul sleep) to some or no death at all for others. (not wanting to start that debate here)

I think "the wages of sin is eternal death" would be more clear/correct.
Suppose that the wages of sin is temporary death what did Jesus die for?
After a certain time the dead would come alive again anyway.
:2c:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi FOMK...  :winkgrin:

The rest will be saved by GOD...In the lake of fire, where they will undergo various things to conform them to the image of Christ, for as long as that may take.

I could not :rolleye: my eyes enough at this statement!

ALL men are "SAVED" the same way... by the WORD... If GOD is IMPARTIAL (which He IS), and YOU were not "SAVED" by means of "torment"... then what makes you think He maintains IMPARTIALITY by "tormenting" another in the process of "SAVING" them?

How many times must He repeat that He is IMPARTIAL to ALL MEN -- Acts 10:34 - 2 Sam 14:14 -- Mark 12:14 -- Col 3:25 -- Rom 2:11 -- Eph 6:9 -- Gal 2:6 -- Prov 28:21 -- 2 Chron 19:7 -- Job 34:19 -- before one "BELIEVES" this?

The above statement you made [IMO] is LINEAR thinking... GOD does not NEED time to correct men... When someone is enlightened BY the power of God in the presentation of His PERSON... correction is within the "twinkiling of an eye"...

In the Revelation of HIS WORD, is correction made -- 2 Tim 3:16 -- John 14:6 -- John 8:32 -- Matt 11:27 -- and the WORD is that which REVEALS the FATHER  to whomsoever the WORD deems to reveal Him..

In other words... Neither you nor I nor ANYONE ELSE, has actually "found" God... :mnah:

It is His doing which DRAGS us to His WORD -- John 6:44 -- and it is HIS WORD which reveals the FATHER -- Matt 11:27 -- and His SPIRIT which causes our lips to CONFESS unto Salvation -- 1 Cor 12:3 -- and is thereby due the GLORY for that REVELATION...  

In the Revelation of the WORD is correction made via JUDGMENT (for ALL "judgment" is committed unto the SON -- John 5:22) -- and then is MADE FREE from the bondage of sin -- John 8:36 -- and thereby the one so REVEALED -- LEARNS RIGHTEOUSNESS. :boogie:

JUDGMENT is not about PUNISHMENT, it is about LEARNING RIGHTEOUSNESS -- Isaiah 26:9

LOVE seeks to MAKE men FREE -- Luke 19:10 -- 1 John 4:18 -- John 8:32

Also... Psalm 30:5 notes "His Wrath" is within a MOMENT...

The WORD claims that SIN is NOT IMPUTED (to make an INVENTORY/reckoning/count), it is COMPLETELY paid for -- 1 Tim 2:6 -- 2 Cor 5:19 -- THIS is the foundation of the GOOD NEWS bro...

Nothing WE can do, ...to include ENDURING supposed "punishments" (such as HELL, Purgatory, or whatever other [man invented] RELIGIOUS term  applied to them), enables men to arrive upon a position of forgiveness...

Forgiveness is the COMPASSIONATE act of GRACE and LOVE...

As a LOVING FATHER, ...it was never my objective, that My Children must "pay" for their behavioral mistakes... Instead, they were DUE my compassion and LOVE which (in WISDOM not VENGENCE) sought to RE-DIRECT that misplaced behavior...

Certainly NOT ...for them to ENDURE a "sufficient" amount of INFLICTED PAIN or SUFFERING by my hand, in order to ..."right their misdirected ships"!   :rolleye:

God's WORD tells us that the "Rod of correction" will drive foolishness far from a child -- Prov 22:15 -- this is not to PUNISH or harm the child, it is to -- GET his/her ATTENTION -- then to RE-FOCUS that attention.

Could Hitler have a worse fate??? Being saved by a Jew?  Cleansed by a Jew and redeemed by a Jew?  Loved eternally by a Jew and made in the image of Christ?!  Lol.

:laughing7: Very well said brother!  :iagree:   How very IRONIC - eh?  :dontknow:

:Peace:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

[peacemaker]

(http://dl9.glitter-graphics.net/pub/817/817129ljt6i9gj53.jpg)
              "A Twinkling of an Eye."

[Chris]

The wages of sin is death. If you stay dead you are annihilated.
Eternal death as Sven, imo, correctly states.
Jesus "payed" to change the eternal death to a temporary death (soul sleep) to some or no death at all for others. (not wanting to start that debate here)

I think "the wages of sin is eternal death" would be more clear/correct.
Suppose that the wages of sin is temporary death what did Jesus die for?
After a certain time the dead would come alive again anyway.
:2c:

Death is never called "eternal" in the scriptures, is it?

I agree that the wages of sin is death, but what "death" did Adam/man die due to sin?

[Chris]

Amen Willie:

TRUE JUDGMENT is to show MERCY and COMPASSION every man to his brother and what great love is there than for a Man to lay down HIS LIFE for HIS BROTHER!!  :thumbsup:

Paul is "the pattern".... and when Christ APPEARED, Paul fell at His feet, asking "Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?"  :bowing:

[bea]

WillieH, your post means a lot to me. I needed to hear all of that. I'm going to save it.

:ginlove:

[WhiteWings]

The wages of sin is death. If you stay dead you are annihilated.
Eternal death as Sven, imo, correctly states.
Jesus "payed" to change the eternal death to a temporary death (soul sleep) to some or no death at all for others. (not wanting to start that debate here)

I think "the wages of sin is eternal death" would be more clear/correct.
Suppose that the wages of sin is temporary death what did Jesus die for?
After a certain time the dead would come alive again anyway.
:2c:

Death is never called "eternal" in the scriptures, is it?

I agree that the wages of sin is death, but what "death" did Adam/man die due to sin?

I think you are ignoring/overlooking my point.
If Jesus never existed or never paid the price will anyone that ever lived and will live 'see' eternal life?
"...o death where is your string..." What is/will be the state of the dead if that sting isn't taken away?
For me the Bible indeed teaches dead is eternal. But because it's defeated it's not.

[Chris]

The wages of sin is death. If you stay dead you are annihilated.
Eternal death as Sven, imo, correctly states.
Jesus "payed" to change the eternal death to a temporary death (soul sleep) to some or no death at all for others. (not wanting to start that debate here)

I think "the wages of sin is eternal death" would be more clear/correct.
Suppose that the wages of sin is temporary death what did Jesus die for?
After a certain time the dead would come alive again anyway.
:2c:

Death is never called "eternal" in the scriptures, is it?

I agree that the wages of sin is death, but what "death" did Adam/man die due to sin?

I think you are ignoring/overlooking my point.
If Jesus never existed or never paid the price will anyone that ever lived and will live 'see' eternal life?
"...o death where is your string..." What is/will be the state of the dead if that sting isn't taken away?
For me the Bible indeed teaches dead is eternal. But because it's defeated it's not.

I'm not ignoring anything; I simply disagree, as I do not look at death from a physical perspective.

The penalty for sin is not physical death, that is the result of man's mortality, right?

The penalty for sin is spritual death (spritual separation from God) and it is from that death that men have been redeemed, not only by His blood (provided by His physical death) but by the very fact that the Word was made flesh. 

The first Adam was made A LIVING SOUL, while the Last Adam (second man) was made A QUICKENING SPIRIT and it is THE SPIRIT that is saved in the day of the Lord, while THE FLESH PROFITS NOTHING, right?

God is "the father of spirits", right?

And where does THE SPIRIT go when THE FLESH returns to dust?

It is that "second man" (the inward man, the spiritiual man, that is THE LORD FROM HEAVEN, who "body" we are) that is the redeemed of God, is it not?

And since Christ is the lamb slain from the foundation of the world, is there even a possibility that men have not always been "saved"?

That which was played out "in time" within this physical realm (the Word being mad flesh in Christ and Christ being put to death and resurrected from the dead) is but a shadow of that which is has always been being carried out in the spiritual realm, is it not?

Can the spirit, which comes from and returns to God, ever be "annihilated"?

[WhiteWings]

Not that I agree with the snipped parts but let me ask you this:

The penalty for sin is spritual death

Can spiritual death last forver? (eternal death)

(spritual separation from God) and it is from that death that men have been redeemed,

Your answer: Yes it can. -> without Jesus it would be eternal.

Can the spirit, which comes from and returns to God, ever be "annihilated"

It's your claim so you answer it.
You speak about eternal spiritual death.

Don't worry I can pick and choose also :winkgrin:

[Chris]

Not that I agree with the snipped parts but let me ask you this:

The penalty for sin is spritual death

Can spiritual death last forver? (eternal death)

If in this life only we have hope then we are of all men most miserable. No?

(spritual separation from God) and it is from that death that men have been redeemed,

Your answer: Yes it can. -> without Jesus it would be eternal.

Yet, if it has nothing to do with physical death, it would still not be annihilation. Would it?

And if the spirit returns to God, from whence it came, then how can anyone remain "forever" apart from God?

Is it not this veil OF FLESH that "separates" us?

Can the spirit, which comes from and returns to God, ever be "annihilated"

It's your claim so you answer it.
You speak about eternal spiritual death.

Don't worry I can pick and choose also :winkgrin:

Except that I never said a word about "eternal spiritual death". Did I?  :winkgrin:

[WhiteWings]

(spritual separation from God) and it is from that death that men have been redeemed,

Your answer: Yes it can. -> without Jesus it would be eternal.

Yet, if it has nothing to do with physical death, it would still not be annihilation. Would it?

Yes most certainly.

And if the spirit returns to God, from whence it came, then how can anyone remain "forever" apart from God?

Try to answer the questions and see what I mean.
a] Is the main goal getting back to/reunited with God?
b] Can the spirit stay seperated from God for a while?
c] How long can that while last?
d] Has Jesus any influence on that duration?
e] Would it make a difference for that duration if Jesus never existed?

Except that I never said a word about "eternal spiritual death". Did I?  :winkgrin:

You just didn't notice because you were to busy avoiding my answers. :mshock:
Hopefully I got clear answers on my 5 questions above. If not I think we have to concider this as a dead end  :msealed:

[Chris]

(spritual separation from God) and it is from that death that men have been redeemed,

Your answer: Yes it can. -> without Jesus it would be eternal.

Yet, if it has nothing to do with physical death, it would still not be annihilation. Would it?

Yes most certainly.

How? There are plenty of people walking around today who are spirtually separated from God. So how does being "separated from God" = annihilation? 

And if the spirit returns to God, from whence it came, then how can anyone remain "forever" apart from God?

Try to answer the questions and see what I mean.
a] Is the main goal getting back to/reunited with God?

Yes.

b] Can the spirit stay seperated from God for a while?

Yes. Even a whole lifetime.

c] How long can that while last?

No longer than one's lifetime.

d] Has Jesus any influence on that duration?

Yes.

e] Would it make a difference for that duration if Jesus never existed?

That's like asking if it would make a difference if God never created the world to begin with. Isn't it? Jesus was part of the plan long before we were.

A scenerio in which "Jesus never existed" doesn't exist.

Except that I never said a word about "eternal spiritual death". Did I?  :winkgrin:

You just didn't notice because you were to busy avoiding my answers. :mshock:
Hopefully I got clear answers on my 5 questions above. If not I think we have to concider this as a dead end  :msealed:

WOW!! You didn't address most of what I said but you expect me to address all of your questions, to your satifaction, or you will just consider the conversation a dead end? Well, perhaps it is then; but for different reasons. But either way, I hope you find my answers clear and direct, even if you don't find them satisfactory.  :msealed: