Tentmaker Forum

I had someone ask me this today, and Im trying to think of a good way to word my response.

So then God has both already punished said sin in Christ yet these people who are/will be in hell will also pay that same debit for a period of time. How do you reconcile this, it is literally the definition of unjust, if Christ paid the sin for every one then why a hell at all?

Simple answer: There is no hell!

But of course there is a lake of fire... fire is used for purifying, refining, and purging.  Just because we are all saved doesn't mean we are all perfect right now.  We will be made perfect - that is what God's judgments and God's various fires (gehenna, furnace of fire, lake of fire, etc) will do.

People aren't punished in "hell" (even a temporary one) just to be punished for their sins.  Any perceived punishment is ultimately corrective so we can learn to be righteous.  (Isaiah 26:9 for example).


I think there is a more subtle point to be raised as well.  Your question says: "God punished sin in Christ"... is that really what happened?  God punished sin in Christ?  Really?  Christ had sin in him?  Christ was blameless.  He was a sin offering, but not sin itself.  Christ was a sin offering, just like the old testament sacrifices were sin offerings.  His sacrifice atoned for the sins of the world.  Its done, its finished.

Yet we still sin and need to learn how to NOT sin.  That is what any fire (spiritual fire) we experience will do - it will teach us not to sin.

I would answer, Christ by His sacrifice saved me from eternal death (i.e. annihilation) by defeating death and the devil who had power over death, therefore all men will gain everlasting life, however some will not be fit yet for paradise when they die or when Christ returns, therefore they have to been corrected in order that they may take their part in the world to come.

Jesus paid for the wages of sin.
But that doesn't mean our bad works won't be burned up.
Everyone will be salted with fire.

We are still accountable for our sins.
Otherwise it would mean even murder is fine because Jesus payed for it.
So my guess is that the salting with fire get longer/more painful if the amount of sins is higher.
:2c:

Quote from: NinjaWizards777 on December 01, 2009, 10:11:12 PM
I had someone ask me this today, and Im trying to think of a good way to word my response.

So then God has both already punished said sin in Christ yet these people who are/will be in hell will also pay that same debit for a period of time. How do you reconcile this, it is literally the definition of unjust, if Christ paid the sin for every one then why a hell at all?

Well, like legoman said, no hell.

And like WW, everyone will be salted with fire.

The cross of Christ was a judgment against sin. In Romans 6 we see that the physical cross of Christ was just as symbolic of the Spiritual work of the Holy Spirit within us, as pretty much anything else physically done by God. Concerning salvation from sin, you can think of the cross as a statement of intent, that by the Holy Spirit the old man of sin within our minds will be placed on the cross, killed, so that a new man may be resurrected and walk in newness of life.

Christ died to fulfill the promise to Abraham: to give us a new way of life by the Spirit.

Sinful flesh tortured and killed innocent flesh.
What does redeem mean?
There was an "undo" button.
And there is a false humility as well as false pride when realizing that we simply had to learn.

its still confusing trying to explain how Jesus paid for everyones sins, yet most will still have to suffer temporarily for those sins. I realize there is a corrective aspect to it, and is the sole purpose behind it but still

Think of it as Jesus paying for YOUR sin, not everybody's, though that is true.
And the corrective aspect seems not pleasant.
But, when you sing above the things that taunt you, the chains will fall away.

Quote from: NinjaWizards777 on December 02, 2009, 02:55:14 AM
its still confusing trying to explain how Jesus paid for everyones sins, yet most will still have to suffer temporarily for those sins. I realize there is a corrective aspect to it, and is the sole purpose behind it but still

What are you meaning by "suffering temporarily"?  Many people (all people I guess?) suffer temporarily in this life we have now.  Are you still thinking of hell as a place of literal/mental torture in fire, albeit it is now only for a finite period of time?  I don't think that is the right view.

The bible is quite clear that everyone will reap what they sow.  Even believers.  So if you sin as a believer, you still reap the consequences of that sin.  If you sin as an unbeliever, same thing.

I believe part of the "suffering temporarily" will be the pressure of shame in realizing all your faults and realizing the sins you had done.


Take some examples.  A man commits murder.  What are the consequences?  He gets caught, thrown in jail, and is executed, missing out on a happy life.  Or he doesn't get caught and lives with mental anguish and guilt.  Or he doesn't get caught and is happy he got away with it, only to have the full scale of his crime revealed in front of God on judgment day.  MASSIVE SHAME.

Think about Hitler for another example.  People always think surely Hitler deserves to be tortured in fire for a few million years.  But think about his life.  Would you actually want to be Hitler?  He definitely had mental issues, definitely didn't understand love, probably had a lonely sad life that relied on a power trip to blame a whole race of people for the problems of his country. He finally killed himself when it all crashed down.  Think about the shame Hitler will feel when he gives account of his loveless life before God, and then realizes that God will still save him!


Now consider a believer.  Before he was a believer, maybe he sinned without thought, and then reaped the consequences.  When he became a believer - he realized the same thing Hitler will realize!  He will feel great shame for all his past sins, but knows that God will save him!

The only difference between the greatest believer and the worst unbelever is the timing of when the conversion takes place.  God is not a respector of persons.

Some of it comes down to this: what is the lake of fire.  You should talk to willieH.  He thinks the lake of fire is NOW.  We are living it.  I'm not sure myself, but it might be true.

Just some things to think on.

Yeah, the whole consequences of sin thing is kindof how I explained it to the person who asked the question. Perhaps part of the problem is just me still readjusting in my head why Jesus died and how that relates to both believers and non(yet eventual) believers

It is not about judgment.  It is about being transformed into the image of Christ!  There are three baptisms talked about in the Word.

Baptism in Water (New Birth)
Baptism in Spirit (New life/power)
Baptism in Fire (Transforming power) Luke 12:49

Think about this:
When a log is consumed by fire every single molecule is changed, but the molecules do not disappear although you would think that something disappears considering the mass of the log has changed, but every molecule is still there but just transformed.  It is reduced to its purest form.

Now if you are called to sonship you will willingly submit to the purifying baptism of fire right now while you live, but if you do not, you will eventually submit even if you have to be dragged into the fire.  You will endure the baptism of fire one way or the other!
But praise be to God that it is the Holy, consuming, fire, and shekinah glory of the Father!!!

Sign me up for a cabin by the Lake right now... and *Lord bathe me until there is no dross left!*
:Pray:

 :cloud9: Amen...... :thumbsup:

Quote from: Beloved Servant on December 02, 2009, 03:04:41 AM
"When you sing above the things that taunt you, the chains will fall away."

A functional vibration and morphological fluctuation within the cells in response to changing conditions.  :gthumbsup:

cre8ed2worship
Cardinal
peacemaker
Beloved Servant

Do you love me?

Perhaps the most important of all questions: "Do you love me?"

Love is essential, for without it, nothing else matters.  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: NinjaWizards777 on December 02, 2009, 02:55:14 AM
its still confusing trying to explain how Jesus paid for everyones sins, yet most will still have to suffer temporarily for those sins. I realize there is a corrective aspect to it, and is the sole purpose behind it but still

There is good article on this but I can't find it. It's on a UR forum/blog. Possibly here but I'm unable to find it.

The Bible states that Jesus payed for our sins.
But the Bible also states the only way to Father is by believing in the Son.
That are two seperate things.

Ninja,
Was the person that asked you that question an ET? I ask because they have the same 'problems' with that verse as we do. They believe Jesus payed for the sins but at the same time they don't promote living like mad man to have benefit from the works of Jesus.
:2c:

Jesus died to save us from death

Life is to know God (John 17:3)

To know someone, you must believe they exist.

I think the meaning of "know God" is more that just agreeing He exists.
I think for example you must also know His character and agree with His decisions. Millions have known Hitler but not all benefitted from it.  Understatement of the year.

Quote from: WhiteWings on December 02, 2009, 09:15:22 AM
I think the meaning of "know God" is more that just agreeing He exists.
I think for example you must also know His character and agree with His decisions. Millions have known Hitler but not all benefitted from it.  Understatement of the year.

WW, I totally agree. It's WAY more than agreeing he exists:

1 John 3
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Just to add a point, I think taking the whole of John's statements, he means to not ABIDE in sin continually, and if we continue to walk and abide in sin, we know him not. So LIFE is deliverance from the works of the devil, which is sin, which works death in them who abide in death.

So intellectual belief is the groundwork for knowledge of God. To know God is to be set free from death.

This is all just to say that while there is no hell, there is no ARBITRARY belief clause. The purpose of belief is completely practical and logical.

Quote from: peacemaker on December 02, 2009, 05:41:02 AM

Quote from: Beloved Servant on December 02, 2009, 03:04:41 AM
"When you sing above the things that taunt you, the chains will fall away."

A functional vibration and morphological fluctuation within the cells in response to changing conditions.  :gthumbsup:

I've been thinking on this for days and still smile about it.
Truly an awesome post.

Quote from: legoman on December 02, 2009, 03:28:59 AM

Quote from: NinjaWizards777 on December 02, 2009, 02:55:14 AM
its still confusing trying to explain how Jesus paid for everyones sins, yet most will still have to suffer temporarily for those sins. I realize there is a corrective aspect to it, and is the sole purpose behind it but still

What are you meaning by "suffering temporarily"?  Many people (all people I guess?) suffer temporarily in this life we have now.  Are you still thinking of hell as a place of literal/mental torture in fire, albeit it is now only for a finite period of time?  I don't think that is the right view.

The bible is quite clear that everyone will reap what they sow.  Even believers.  So if you sin as a believer, you still reap the consequences of that sin.  If you sin as an unbeliever, same thing.

I believe part of the "suffering temporarily" will be the pressure of shame in realizing all your faults and realizing the sins you had done.


Take some examples.  A man commits murder.  What are the consequences?  He gets caught, thrown in jail, and is executed, missing out on a happy life.  Or he doesn't get caught and lives with mental anguish and guilt.  Or he doesn't get caught and is happy he got away with it, only to have the full scale of his crime revealed in front of God on judgment day.  MASSIVE SHAME.

Think about Hitler for another example.  People always think surely Hitler deserves to be tortured in fire for a few million years.  But think about his life.  Would you actually want to be Hitler?  He definitely had mental issues, definitely didn't understand love, probably had a lonely sad life that relied on a power trip to blame a whole race of people for the problems of his country. He finally killed himself when it all crashed down.  Think about the shame Hitler will feel when he gives account of his loveless life before God, and then realizes that God will still save him!


Now consider a believer.  Before he was a believer, maybe he sinned without thought, and then reaped the consequences.  When he became a believer - he realized the same thing Hitler will realize!  He will feel great shame for all his past sins, but knows that God will save him!

The only difference between the greatest believer and the worst unbelever is the timing of when the conversion takes place.  God is not a respector of persons.

Some of it comes down to this: what is the lake of fire.  You should talk to willieH.  He thinks the lake of fire is NOW.  We are living it.  I'm not sure myself, but it might be true.

Just some things to think on.

I agree. We have pretty much the same view, legoman.

Quote from: sparrow on December 05, 2009, 06:52:53 AM

Quote from: legoman on December 02, 2009, 03:28:59 AM

Quote from: NinjaWizards777 on December 02, 2009, 02:55:14 AM
its still confusing trying to explain how Jesus paid for everyones sins, yet most will still have to suffer temporarily for those sins. I realize there is a corrective aspect to it, and is the sole purpose behind it but still

What are you meaning by "suffering temporarily"?  Many people (all people I guess?) suffer temporarily in this life we have now.  Are you still thinking of hell as a place of literal/mental torture in fire, albeit it is now only for a finite period of time?  I don't think that is the right view.

The bible is quite clear that everyone will reap what they sow.  Even believers.  So if you sin as a believer, you still reap the consequences of that sin.  If you sin as an unbeliever, same thing.

I believe part of the "suffering temporarily" will be the pressure of shame in realizing all your faults and realizing the sins you had done.


Take some examples.  A man commits murder.  What are the consequences?  He gets caught, thrown in jail, and is executed, missing out on a happy life.  Or he doesn't get caught and lives with mental anguish and guilt.  Or he doesn't get caught and is happy he got away with it, only to have the full scale of his crime revealed in front of God on judgment day.  MASSIVE SHAME.

Think about Hitler for another example.  People always think surely Hitler deserves to be tortured in fire for a few million years.  But think about his life.  Would you actually want to be Hitler?  He definitely had mental issues, definitely didn't understand love, probably had a lonely sad life that relied on a power trip to blame a whole race of people for the problems of his country. He finally killed himself when it all crashed down.  Think about the shame Hitler will feel when he gives account of his loveless life before God, and then realizes that God will still save him!


Now consider a believer.  Before he was a believer, maybe he sinned without thought, and then reaped the consequences.  When he became a believer - he realized the same thing Hitler will realize!  He will feel great shame for all his past sins, but knows that God will save him!

The only difference between the greatest believer and the worst unbelever is the timing of when the conversion takes place.  God is not a respector of persons.

Some of it comes down to this: what is the lake of fire.  You should talk to willieH.  He thinks the lake of fire is NOW.  We are living it.  I'm not sure myself, but it might be true.

Just some things to think on.

I agree. We have pretty much the same view, legoman.

Awesome sparrow!  Why can't other people see it though?  They always feel someone always has to burn or its not "justice"...  :sigh:

Before I learned of UR, periodically in my life I would have doubts as to whether I was really saved or not, because of the sin in my life.  I knew I wasn't obedient, how could I endure hell?

Then I learned of UR.  What a relief!  Now instead of a spending an eternity in literal fire, I figured I would only have to spend maybe a million years or so in literal fire!   :thumbdown:

That is how my thought process went.  YAY God will only burn people in fire for millions of years instead of eternity!  What a burden lifted!  God's love is so great! How little did I still know about God's love...

This led me to think more... of course burning someone for eternity is purposeless... but what is the purpose of burning someone for a finite million years in fire?!?  It is ALSO PURPOSELESS!  Such physical pain and anguish for millenia is also senseless and unloving.  God would not do such a compassionless and unloving thing.  

Look at this life we have now.  Some people live very painful lives, maybe for 80 years max.  Is this unloving of God to put a person through this?  Yet even in extreme cases, God leaves glimmers of faith and hope open - that is what God is teaching the person - there is hope, the hope of death, the hope of God redeeming them after death.  Even though some people experience pain for 80 years, perhaps they still experience some joy in their life as well.  

But to put a person in literal fire for one million years.  This is a sick, twisted belief.  It also makes no sense, because the person would BURN UP and therefore not last one million years.  You can twist it and say their skin regenerates so they feel the pain over and over, but again this is senseless purposeless evil, and nothing less.

I am quite convinced that the lake of fire is either:

1. our experiences in this life

Or:

2. a classroom after the resurrection where all will be revealed, and many will feel great shame.  Now this may take eons, but it will only take as long as necessary for each person to realize what they had done and to realize that they need God's love.  It will be far more purposeful than simply torturing a person in literal fire for a million years.

Peace out.  

One further point, regarding the elect (chosen) and non-elect (called but not chosen, or not even called). Yes there is an elect and a non-elect.  ETers (Calvinists especially) will always say this proves God chooses a certain people to be saved.

But here is the real explanation.  The only difference (right now at least) between the elect and the non-elect, is that God has chosen the elect to understand what is happening.  We don't even understand fully, but we know that God is using his fire to perfect us.  The non-elect, which IMHO may include ETers, annihilationists, other religions, atheists, etc.  They don't realize what the purpose of this life is.  The elect do.  

Now with this knowledge, the elect can help the rest of the world.  They will be kings, judges, priests and ministers.  We need to minister and help the rest of the world.

JMHO.

Quote from: legoman on December 05, 2009, 06:04:11 PMThen I learned of UR.  What a relief!  Now instead of a spending an eternity in literal fire, I figured I would only have to spend maybe a million years or so in literal fire!   :thumbdown:

Hi LM, Hi Sparrow,

I never heard of the UR view that people burn in literal fire. Neither I've read about a million year. Sounds more like a RC purgatory.
Of course I haven't read all UR viewpoints....  :winkgrin:

I'm making no firm statement here because I'm still not sure myself.
IF there is a fire it's spiritual. A type I can't comprehend so I won't even attempt to describe it. I'm less sure of the duration but my current view is something with a duration of 1 to 365 days.

I'm also aware some think LoF/hell is right now. I think that view isn't (totally) incompatible with the above.
Just a few thoughts to consider.

Quote from: WhiteWings on December 05, 2009, 06:54:34 PM

Quote from: legoman on December 05, 2009, 06:04:11 PMThen I learned of UR.  What a relief!  Now instead of a spending an eternity in literal fire, I figured I would only have to spend maybe a million years or so in literal fire!   :thumbdown:

Hi LM, Hi Sparrow,

I never heard of the UR view that people burn in literal fire. Neither I've read about a million year. Sounds more like a RC purgatory.

Hi, wasn't an "official UR" view, just my own twisted view of what non-ET must mean.  I still didn't understand what the lake of fire was. e.i.  being thrown into a lake of fire for ages of ages (ie millions of years).

Quote from: NinjaWizards777 on December 01, 2009, 10:11:12 PM
I had someone ask me this today, and Im trying to think of a good way to word my response.

So then God has both already punished said sin in Christ yet these people who are/will be in hell will also pay that same debit for a period of time. How do you reconcile this, it is literally the definition of unjust, if Christ paid the sin for every one then why a hell at all?

http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/HumanDestiny/unbeliever.html

""Faith is but the channel of grace; it does not produce salvation. Judgment is but a means He uses, a process which leads to the opening of the unbeliever's eyes. It does not remove his guilt or cleanse a single sin. That is done wholly and solely by the blood of Christ.""

Thought i'd add my two cents about judgement and the lake of fire.  :bigGrin:
One man says that he asked God what happens in "hell" and God showed him. Here is a quote from his site:

QuoteYes, there is a Hell. It is very uncomfortable, to say the least. It is not like Dante's inferno. It is not physical fire and brimstone; these are physical symbols of the spiritual, for example: "Our God is a consuming fire." Heb 12:29. There is also a burning within you to do something; the burning of lust, as described in Romans 1:27, but in a burning intensity greater than you have ever known. It is raging obsession. It is hyper sin city - complete mutual rage, complete mutual lust, etc. The brimstone, sulphur, (when burned sulphur produces sulphur dioxide, used for purification and bleaching), symbolizes a spiritual purification agent. I was taken there because I prayed, sincerely doubting there was a Hell. This is what I felt and saw:

1) I was in a cavern underground. It was totally dark. I knew I was being hunted by someone else. I knew I was hunting him. It was kill or be killed. There was a lot of fear and adrenalin. Suddenly it was light, and in front of me was the person I was hunting and who had been hunting me. We clubbed each other frantically. The light went out. I was in a cavern underground. It was totally dark. I knew I was being hunted ........ a loop that I felt like was going to go on forever.

2) I was then immediately transferred to a lighted cavern, escorted, with hallways and rooms off to the side. In each room was a nude woman and a bed. The only woman I saw was still somewhat attractive, but looked very tired and used to the point that her skin was beginning to dry and ripple slightly. I knew, without having to participate, that this was perpetual sex with someone in each room. I knew that this would go on, over and over and over and would at least seem like "forever." It was not appealing. It was not sickening. It just was. That was the end of my experience in Hell. It was enough to convince me it was real.

http://hallvworthington.com/hopeforall.html

I have also heard of another person seeing this type of experience in "hell". It would seem to me that maybe whatever sin a person is addicted to they have to become so sick of doing it that they would never want to do it again... I dunno, just my guess.  :dontknow:

Quote from: NinjaWizards777 on December 01, 2009, 10:11:12 PM
I had someone ask me this today, and Im trying to think of a good way to word my response.

So then God has both already punished said sin in Christ yet these people who are/will be in hell will also pay that same debit for a period of time. How do you reconcile this, it is literally the definition of unjust, if Christ paid the sin for every one then why a hell at all?

There's a difference between enforcing a penalty, and having a firm hand regarding obedience, hence the difference between grounding a child and spanking to where grounding is more a penalty while spanking is EMPHASIZING a point rather than necessarily a penalty.  Removal of priveleges isn't the same as "YOU WILL NOT DO THIS ANY MORE!" where words haven't been clear enough with the strong willed.  It's not a prison mentality, but if you'll excuse the pun, the breaking of an ass 'til they do what you want them to do, or 'til they do not do what you do not want them to do.  The value is often in the threat alone to bring the fear of the Lord and a new resolve to obey, rather than in His having ever delighted to inflict either penalty or punishment.

QuoteBut of course there is a lake of fire... fire is used for purifying, refining, and purging.  Just

Quotebecause we are all saved doesn't mean we are all perfect right now

.

IMO We are all perfect now, behavior is no means in which to judge a person.

QuoteThere's a difference between enforcing a penalty, and having a firm hand regarding obedience, hence the difference between grounding a child and spanking to where grounding is more a penalty while spanking is EMPHASIZING a point rather than necessarily a penalty.  Removal of priveleges isn't the same as "YOU WILL NOT DO THIS ANY MORE!" where words haven't been clear enough with the strong willed.  It's not a prison mentality, but if you'll excuse the pun, the breaking of an ass 'til they do what you want them to do, or 'til they do not do what you do not want them to do.  The value is often in the threat alone to bring the fear of the Lord and a new resolve to obey, rather than in His having ever delighted to inflict either penalty or punishment.

That's control abuse.

Bahavior is easily modified and thus quite easy to learn. The matter of the heart behind the behavior is the issue. The persons willingness to obey, or their fight to be broken, is a result of injury to their inner being.

God is not interested in beating people into obedience, but through the healing of the heart a man will find peace and love and relationship with Heavenly Father, not obedience and reward, but love and reward.

Quote from: Dallas on January 25, 2010, 11:13:02 PM

QuoteBut of course there is a lake of fire... fire is used for purifying, refining, and purging.  Just

Quotebecause we are all saved doesn't mean we are all perfect right now

.

IMO We are all perfect now, behavior is no means in which to judge a person.

QuoteThere's a difference between enforcing a penalty, and having a firm hand regarding obedience, hence the difference between grounding a child and spanking to where grounding is more a penalty while spanking is EMPHASIZING a point rather than necessarily a penalty.  Removal of priveleges isn't the same as "YOU WILL NOT DO THIS ANY MORE!" where words haven't been clear enough with the strong willed.  It's not a prison mentality, but if you'll excuse the pun, the breaking of an ass 'til they do what you want them to do, or 'til they do not do what you do not want them to do.  The value is often in the threat alone to bring the fear of the Lord and a new resolve to obey, rather than in His having ever delighted to inflict either penalty or punishment.

That's control abuse.

Bahavior is easily modified and thus quite easy to learn. The matter of the heart behind the behavior is the issue. The persons willingness to obey, or their fight to be broken, is a result of injury to their inner being.

God is not interested in beating people into obedience, but through the healing of the heart a man will find peace and love and relationship with Heavenly Father, not obedience and reward, but love and reward.

I sort of see what you mean Dallas but isn't that like saying a filthy person is already clean? Or a blind man can already see?

Hebrews 11:40 
God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Hebrews 12:23
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect

I would say, there is a 'hell' (if thats what you want to call it, i personally wouldnt, hell means a 'covering', it is death, nothing more nothing less.  The word has been great misused and misunderstood), because those who are IN CHRIST and saved BY CHRIST and those NOT in CHRIST and NOT saved by CHRISTS blood...Yet...IE, they have NOT accepted the only name under heaven (yet) wherein men MUST BE SAVED. 

I believe this is why (and this is my personal view) 1 TIM 4: 9-11 says -

"...THE LIVING GOD, who is the savior of ALL men....especially believers."

Note 'the living GOD, IS the savior of ALL men'...NOT Jesus.  GOD.
Believers are ESPECIALLY saved because Christ has redeemed them, washed, etc by His innocent blood.

The rest will be saved by GOD...In the lake of fire, where they will undergo various things to conform them to the image of Christ, for as long as that may take.

Could Hitler have a worse fate??? Being saved by a Jew?  Cleansed by a Jew and redeemed by a Jew?  Loved eternally by a Jew and made in the image of Christ?!  Lol.

Quotehell means a 'covering'

Posted by: friendofmankind

Things will make alot more sense for you if you stop making stuff up. This is a figment of your imagination. If you have a source for your error, then i would strongly suggest realizing this source is crap.

Deja vu...
Two crap sources. You can find several others on the main Tentmaker site.

---

Merriam-Webster
Etymology:Middle English, from Old English; akin to Old English helan to conceal, Old High German hella hell, helan to conceal, Old Norse hel heathen realm of the dead, Gothic halja hell, Latin celare to hide, conceal, Greek kalyptein to cover, conceal, Sanskrit Kara*a screening, protecting; basic meaning: concealing

---

Oxford English Dictionary
Forms: 1–7 hel, 1– hell, 2–6 helle.

[OE. hęl(l, obl. cases hęlle, str. fem. = OFris. helle, hille, OS. hellja, hella, MDu. helle, Du. hel), OHG. hella (MHG. helle, mod.G. hölle), ON. hel, gen. heljar, Goth. halja:—OTeut. *haljâ str. fem., lit. 'the coverer up or hider', f. hel-, hal-, hul- to hide, conceal, hele. In ON. also the proper name of the goddess of the infernal regions, 'the ogress Hel, the Proserpine of Scandinavian mythology' (Vigfusson).]

c 825 Vesp. Psalter liv. 16 [lv. 15] Cyme deað ofer hie and astiᴁen hie in helle lifᴁende.    c 1000 Ælfric Gen. xxxvii. 35 Ic fare to minum sunu to helle.    a 1340 Hampole Psalter xv. 10 Þou sall noght leue my saule in hell.    1382 Wyclif Gen. xlii. 38 Ȝe shulen lede doun myn hoore heeris with sorwe to helle.    1502 Ord. Crysten Men i. vii. (W. de W. 1506) 68 For before that he styed up in to the heuyns he dyscended in to the helles.    1529 More Suppl. Soulys Wks. 320/2 Descendit ad inferna: that is to say he discended down beneth into the lowe places. In stede of which low places ye english toung hath euer vsed thys word hel.    1535 Coverdale Job xiv. 13 O that thou woldest kepe me, and hyde me in the hell, vntill thy wrath were stilled.    ― Acts ii. 31 His soule was not left in hell [1881 R. V. Hades].    1649 Jer. Taylor Gt. Exemp. iii. Ad §16. 170 Our Lord descended into hell‥that is into the state of separation and common receptacle of spirits.    a 1748 Watts Improv. Mind ii. v. §2, I will explain the word hell to signify the state of the dead, or the separate state of souls‥and‥that the soul of Christ existed three days in the state of separation from his body, or was in the invisible world.    a 1848 R. W. Hamilton Rew. & Punishm. iii. (1853) 113 The real conception of hell, is that which is unseen, the invisible state.

Quote from: Dallas on February 01, 2010, 06:46:27 PM

Quotehell means a 'covering'

Posted by: friendofmankind

Things will make alot more sense for you if you stop making stuff up. This is a figment of your imagination. If you have a source for your error, then i would strongly suggest realizing this source is crap.

You can find the origin of the word hell to mean "to cover or conceal" documented by any dictionary source.

Quote

From Websters

Etymology: Middle English, from Old English; akin to Old English helan to conceal,

Dictionary.com
Origin:
bef. 900; ME, OE hel(l); c. OHG hell(i)a (G Hölle), ON hel, Goth halja; akin to OE helan to cover, hide, and to hull 2

Quote from: Dallas on February 01, 2010, 06:46:27 PM

Quotehell means a 'covering'

Posted by: friendofmankind

Things will make alot more sense for you if you stop making stuff up. This is a figment of your imagination. If you have a source for your error, then i would strongly suggest realizing this source is crap.

Hi Dallas :icon_flower:

Youve been around these parts long enough to grasp the guidelines of posting..Plz adhere to them :icon_flower:

TY

The word hell does not appear in the greek, or the hebrew.

The word hell was transliterated out of gehenna, sheol, hades, the grave/death and tartus. None of these words ever were penned as hell in the origonal languages. That was an invention of the Latin/Elizebethan, the same great scholars who also translated satyrs into the scriptures.

So does this mean there are half-man half-goat men are dancing around the woods playing flutes? Of course not, the word never should have made it into the bible, neither should the word hell. The true renditions of the words needed to be penned. The word satyr was the word beast, the same word translated everywhere else as cattle.

Instead of the word hell, the word gehenna, sheol, hades,tartus, death/grave never meant hell, which never should have become hell, the word hell holds the connotation to eternal punishment.

So when I say the word hell doesn't mean covering, I am refering to the fact that the "transliterated word hell" never was used as covering, so connecting the two is absolutley innapropriate.


1.Isaiah 13:21
But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and owls shall dwell there, and satyrs shall dance there.


2.Isaiah 34:14
The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest.

The word "hell" hold that connotation because it is that which has been attributed to it, not because that is what the word has always meant.

As certainly one is "covered" or "concealed" in a grave. Are they not.

And when it comes to LIFE, where is that life "HID"? Is it not WITHIN "the body of this death" that we need redemption from? 

Quote from: sven on December 01, 2009, 10:58:16 PM
I would answer, Christ by His sacrifice saved me from eternal death (i.e. annihilation) by defeating death and the devil who had power over death, therefore all men will gain everlasting life, however some will not be fit yet for paradise when they die or when Christ returns, therefore they have to been corrected in order that they may take their part in the world to come.

HI sven,

You believe that the penatly for sin is annihilation? If so, then how did Jesus "pay" that penalty?

The wages of sin is death. If you stay dead you are annihilated.
Eternal death as Sven, imo, correctly states.
Jesus "payed" to change the eternal death to a temporary death (soul sleep) to some or no death at all for others. (not wanting to start that debate here)

I think "the wages of sin is eternal death" would be more clear/correct.
Suppose that the wages of sin is temporary death what did Jesus die for?
After a certain time the dead would come alive again anyway.
:2c:

willieH: Hi FOMK...  :winkgrin:

Quote from: friendofmankind on January 29, 2010, 08:36:21 PMThe rest will be saved by GOD...In the lake of fire, where they will undergo various things to conform them to the image of Christ, for as long as that may take.

I could not :rolleye: my eyes enough at this statement!

ALL men are "SAVED" the same way... by the WORD... If GOD is IMPARTIAL (which He IS), and YOU were not "SAVED" by means of "torment"... then what makes you think He maintains IMPARTIALITY by "tormenting" another in the process of "SAVING" them?

How many times must He repeat that He is IMPARTIAL to ALL MEN -- Acts 10:34 - 2 Sam 14:14 -- Mark 12:14 -- Col 3:25 -- Rom 2:11 -- Eph 6:9 -- Gal 2:6 -- Prov 28:21 -- 2 Chron 19:7 -- Job 34:19 -- before one "BELIEVES" this?

The above statement you made [IMO] is LINEAR thinking... GOD does not NEED time to correct men... When someone is enlightened BY the power of God in the presentation of His PERSON... correction is within the "twinkiling of an eye"...

In the Revelation of HIS WORD, is correction made -- 2 Tim 3:16 -- John 14:6 -- John 8:32 -- Matt 11:27 -- and the WORD is that which REVEALS the FATHER  to whomsoever the WORD deems to reveal Him..

In other words... Neither you nor I nor ANYONE ELSE, has actually "found" God... :mnah:

It is His doing which DRAGS us to His WORD -- John 6:44 -- and it is HIS WORD which reveals the FATHER -- Matt 11:27 -- and His SPIRIT which causes our lips to CONFESS unto Salvation -- 1 Cor 12:3 -- and is thereby due the GLORY for that REVELATION...  

In the Revelation of the WORD is correction made via JUDGMENT (for ALL "judgment" is committed unto the SON -- John 5:22) -- and then is MADE FREE from the bondage of sin -- John 8:36 -- and thereby the one so REVEALED -- LEARNS RIGHTEOUSNESS. :boogie:

JUDGMENT is not about PUNISHMENT, it is about LEARNING RIGHTEOUSNESS -- Isaiah 26:9

LOVE seeks to MAKE men FREE -- Luke 19:10 -- 1 John 4:18 -- John 8:32

Also... Psalm 30:5 notes "His Wrath" is within a MOMENT...

The WORD claims that SIN is NOT IMPUTED (to make an INVENTORY/reckoning/count), it is COMPLETELY paid for -- 1 Tim 2:6 -- 2 Cor 5:19 -- THIS is the foundation of the GOOD NEWS bro...

Nothing WE can do, ...to include ENDURING supposed "punishments" (such as HELL, Purgatory, or whatever other [man invented] RELIGIOUS term  applied to them), enables men to arrive upon a position of forgiveness...

Forgiveness is the COMPASSIONATE act of GRACE and LOVE...

As a LOVING FATHER, ...it was never my objective, that My Children must "pay" for their behavioral mistakes... Instead, they were DUE my compassion and LOVE which (in WISDOM not VENGENCE) sought to RE-DIRECT that misplaced behavior...

Certainly NOT ...for them to ENDURE a "sufficient" amount of INFLICTED PAIN or SUFFERING by my hand, in order to ..."right their misdirected ships"!   :rolleye:

God's WORD tells us that the "Rod of correction" will drive foolishness far from a child -- Prov 22:15 -- this is not to PUNISH or harm the child, it is to -- GET his/her ATTENTION -- then to RE-FOCUS that attention.

Quote from: friendofmankind on January 29, 2010, 08:36:21 PMCould Hitler have a worse fate??? Being saved by a Jew?  Cleansed by a Jew and redeemed by a Jew?  Loved eternally by a Jew and made in the image of Christ?!  Lol.

:laughing7: Very well said brother!  :iagree:   How very IRONIC - eh?  :dontknow:

:Peace:

(http://dl9.glitter-graphics.net/pub/817/817129ljt6i9gj53.jpg) (http://www.glitter-graphics.com)
              "A Twinkling of an Eye."

Quote from: WhiteWings on February 02, 2010, 08:38:50 PM
The wages of sin is death. If you stay dead you are annihilated.
Eternal death as Sven, imo, correctly states.
Jesus "payed" to change the eternal death to a temporary death (soul sleep) to some or no death at all for others. (not wanting to start that debate here)

I think "the wages of sin is eternal death" would be more clear/correct.
Suppose that the wages of sin is temporary death what did Jesus die for?
After a certain time the dead would come alive again anyway.
:2c:

Death is never called "eternal" in the scriptures, is it?

I agree that the wages of sin is death, but what "death" did Adam/man die due to sin?

Amen Willie:

TRUE JUDGMENT is to show MERCY and COMPASSION every man to his brother and what great love is there than for a Man to lay down HIS LIFE for HIS BROTHER!!  :thumbsup:

Paul is "the pattern".... and when Christ APPEARED, Paul fell at His feet, asking "Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?"  :bowing:

WillieH, your post means a lot to me. I needed to hear all of that. I'm going to save it.

:ginlove:

Quote from: Chris on February 03, 2010, 03:15:48 AM

Quote from: WhiteWings on February 02, 2010, 08:38:50 PM
The wages of sin is death. If you stay dead you are annihilated.
Eternal death as Sven, imo, correctly states.
Jesus "payed" to change the eternal death to a temporary death (soul sleep) to some or no death at all for others. (not wanting to start that debate here)

I think "the wages of sin is eternal death" would be more clear/correct.
Suppose that the wages of sin is temporary death what did Jesus die for?
After a certain time the dead would come alive again anyway.
:2c:

Death is never called "eternal" in the scriptures, is it?

I agree that the wages of sin is death, but what "death" did Adam/man die due to sin?

I think you are ignoring/overlooking my point.
If Jesus never existed or never paid the price will anyone that ever lived and will live 'see' eternal life?
"...o death where is your string..." What is/will be the state of the dead if that sting isn't taken away?
For me the Bible indeed teaches dead is eternal. But because it's defeated it's not.

Quote from: WhiteWings on February 03, 2010, 08:36:39 AM

Quote from: Chris on February 03, 2010, 03:15:48 AM

Quote from: WhiteWings on February 02, 2010, 08:38:50 PM
The wages of sin is death. If you stay dead you are annihilated.
Eternal death as Sven, imo, correctly states.
Jesus "payed" to change the eternal death to a temporary death (soul sleep) to some or no death at all for others. (not wanting to start that debate here)

I think "the wages of sin is eternal death" would be more clear/correct.
Suppose that the wages of sin is temporary death what did Jesus die for?
After a certain time the dead would come alive again anyway.
:2c:

Death is never called "eternal" in the scriptures, is it?

I agree that the wages of sin is death, but what "death" did Adam/man die due to sin?

I think you are ignoring/overlooking my point.
If Jesus never existed or never paid the price will anyone that ever lived and will live 'see' eternal life?
"...o death where is your string..." What is/will be the state of the dead if that sting isn't taken away?
For me the Bible indeed teaches dead is eternal. But because it's defeated it's not.

I'm not ignoring anything; I simply disagree, as I do not look at death from a physical perspective.

The penalty for sin is not physical death, that is the result of man's mortality, right?

The penalty for sin is spritual death (spritual separation from God) and it is from that death that men have been redeemed, not only by His blood (provided by His physical death) but by the very fact that the Word was made flesh. 

The first Adam was made A LIVING SOUL, while the Last Adam (second man) was made A QUICKENING SPIRIT and it is THE SPIRIT that is saved in the day of the Lord, while THE FLESH PROFITS NOTHING, right?

God is "the father of spirits", right?

And where does THE SPIRIT go when THE FLESH returns to dust?

It is that "second man" (the inward man, the spiritiual man, that is THE LORD FROM HEAVEN, who "body" we are) that is the redeemed of God, is it not?

And since Christ is the lamb slain from the foundation of the world, is there even a possibility that men have not always been "saved"?

That which was played out "in time" within this physical realm (the Word being mad flesh in Christ and Christ being put to death and resurrected from the dead) is but a shadow of that which is has always been being carried out in the spiritual realm, is it not?

Can the spirit, which comes from and returns to God, ever be "annihilated"?

Not that I agree with the snipped parts but let me ask you this:

Quote from: Chris on February 03, 2010, 02:32:47 PM
The penalty for sin is spritual death

Can spiritual death last forver? (eternal death)

Quote(spritual separation from God) and it is from that death that men have been redeemed,

Your answer: Yes it can. -> without Jesus it would be eternal.

QuoteCan the spirit, which comes from and returns to God, ever be "annihilated"

It's your claim so you answer it.
You speak about eternal spiritual death.

Don't worry I can pick and choose also :winkgrin:

Quote from: WhiteWings on February 03, 2010, 03:16:45 PM
Not that I agree with the snipped parts but let me ask you this:

Quote from: Chris on February 03, 2010, 02:32:47 PM
The penalty for sin is spritual death

Can spiritual death last forver? (eternal death)

If in this life only we have hope then we are of all men most miserable. No?

Quote from: WhiteWings

Quote from: Chris(spritual separation from God) and it is from that death that men have been redeemed,

Your answer: Yes it can. -> without Jesus it would be eternal.

Yet, if it has nothing to do with physical death, it would still not be annihilation. Would it?

And if the spirit returns to God, from whence it came, then how can anyone remain "forever" apart from God?

Is it not this veil OF FLESH that "separates" us?

Quote from: WhiteWings

Quote from: ChrisCan the spirit, which comes from and returns to God, ever be "annihilated"

It's your claim so you answer it.
You speak about eternal spiritual death.

Don't worry I can pick and choose also :winkgrin:

Except that I never said a word about "eternal spiritual death". Did I?  :winkgrin:

Quote from: Chris on February 04, 2010, 02:59:18 AM

Quote from: WhiteWings

Quote from: Chris(spritual separation from God) and it is from that death that men have been redeemed,

Your answer: Yes it can. -> without Jesus it would be eternal.

Yet, if it has nothing to do with physical death, it would still not be annihilation. Would it?

Yes most certainly.

QuoteAnd if the spirit returns to God, from whence it came, then how can anyone remain "forever" apart from God?

Try to answer the questions and see what I mean.
a] Is the main goal getting back to/reunited with God?
b] Can the spirit stay seperated from God for a while?
c] How long can that while last?
d] Has Jesus any influence on that duration?
e] Would it make a difference for that duration if Jesus never existed?

QuoteExcept that I never said a word about "eternal spiritual death". Did I?  :winkgrin:

You just didn't notice because you were to busy avoiding my answers. :mshock:
Hopefully I got clear answers on my 5 questions above. If not I think we have to concider this as a dead end  :msealed:

Quote from: WhiteWings on February 04, 2010, 09:08:43 AM

Quote from: Chris on February 04, 2010, 02:59:18 AM

Quote from: WhiteWings

Quote from: Chris(spritual separation from God) and it is from that death that men have been redeemed,

Your answer: Yes it can. -> without Jesus it would be eternal.

Yet, if it has nothing to do with physical death, it would still not be annihilation. Would it?

Yes most certainly.

How? There are plenty of people walking around today who are spirtually separated from God. So how does being "separated from God" = annihilation? 

Quote from: WhiteWings

Quote from: ChrisAnd if the spirit returns to God, from whence it came, then how can anyone remain "forever" apart from God?

Try to answer the questions and see what I mean.
a] Is the main goal getting back to/reunited with God?

Yes.

Quoteb] Can the spirit stay seperated from God for a while?

Yes. Even a whole lifetime.

Quotec] How long can that while last?

No longer than one's lifetime.

Quoted] Has Jesus any influence on that duration?

Yes.

Quotee] Would it make a difference for that duration if Jesus never existed?

That's like asking if it would make a difference if God never created the world to begin with. Isn't it? Jesus was part of the plan long before we were.

A scenerio in which "Jesus never existed" doesn't exist.

Quote from: WhiteWings

Quote from: ChrisExcept that I never said a word about "eternal spiritual death". Did I?  :winkgrin:

You just didn't notice because you were to busy avoiding my answers. :mshock:
Hopefully I got clear answers on my 5 questions above. If not I think we have to concider this as a dead end  :msealed:

WOW!! You didn't address most of what I said but you expect me to address all of your questions, to your satifaction, or you will just consider the conversation a dead end? Well, perhaps it is then; but for different reasons. But either way, I hope you find my answers clear and direct, even if you don't find them satisfactory.  :msealed:

Quote from: Chris on February 04, 2010, 04:09:42 PM
WOW!! You didn't address most of what I said but you expect me to address all of your questions, to your satifaction, or you will just consider the conversation a dead end? Well, perhaps it is then; but for different reasons. But either way, I hope you find my answers clear and direct, even if you don't find them satisfactory.  :msealed:

Not WOW at all :icon_jokercolor: I ask a question. I don't get the answer what I was after. I could ask the same question again. Or I just take a detour to get to the question I originally asked.
That's not ignoring your answers that 'building' on them. Or answering them with a question based on that answer.
Your last post brought me a lot closer to the answer I was waiting for.

---

QuoteQuote
e] Would it make a difference for that duration if Jesus never existed?

That's like asking if it would make a difference if God never created the world to begin with. Isn't it? Jesus was part of the plan long before we were.

A scenerio in which "Jesus never existed" doesn't exist.

An here I disagree. (I agree on a, b and d. Doubt on c)

The wages is death. Eternal death. BUT because God had/has a plan it's no longer eternal.
And the core of that plan is of course Jesus. And that's very different from saying "assume the world was never created."

And in case you wonder why I (still) write eternal death.
No one comes to the Father then through the Son.
So IF the Son wasn't there we would never reach the Father.
And that means we eternally stay in the state of "wages of sin is death"
Jesus saved us from being dead forever. Not for only a lifetime (or less)

Quote from: WhiteWings on February 04, 2010, 08:33:13 PM

Quote from: Chris on February 04, 2010, 04:09:42 PM
WOW!! You didn't address most of what I said but you expect me to address all of your questions, to your satifaction, or you will just consider the conversation a dead end? Well, perhaps it is then; but for different reasons. But either way, I hope you find my answers clear and direct, even if you don't find them satisfactory.  :msealed:

Not WOW at all :icon_jokercolor: I ask a question. I don't get the answer what I was after. I could ask the same question again. Or I just take a detour to get to the question I originally asked.
That's not ignoring your answers that 'building' on them. Or answering them with a question based on that answer.
Your last post brought me a lot closer to the answer I was waiting for.

I wasn't talking about your questions, I was talking about how you ended the post after asking the questions. I have no problem with you asking me questions or with you asking me additional questions if the answers you got were not helpful to you.  :thumbsup: I was talking about how you ended the post (after the questions).

As far as ignoring my questions. I never accused of you ignoring my questions, I simply pointed out that you did not address everything I said in reply #45; you said so yourself in post #46 when you said you were just "snipping" parts of it to ask me questions. Right?

So I did not accuse you of ignoring my questions, but you did skip over much of my post and only addressed a small part of it. I replied to all of your questions anyway and did not even go back to what you had skipped over. So I was just confused by the fact that you inferred that I am not giving you clear answers to your questions and so ended your post by telling me that "if I don't" give you "clear" answers then you'll just consider this conversation a "dead end".

I'm not trying to be "touchy" about it; I just thought it was a bit odd and wondered why such a comment was even warranted, since I have not evaded any of your questions; I have given what I feel are pretty clear and direct answers to all of them.

That was all.

Quote from: WhiteWings

Quote from: ChrisQuote
e] Would it make a difference for that duration if Jesus never existed?

That's like asking if it would make a difference if God never created the world to begin with. Isn't it? Jesus was part of the plan long before we were.

A scenerio in which "Jesus never existed" doesn't exist.

An here I disagree. (I agree on a, b and d. Doubt on c)

The wages is death. Eternal death. BUT because God had/has a plan it's no longer eternal.
And the core of that plan is of course Jesus. And that's very different from saying "assume the world was never created."

And in case you wonder why I (still) write eternal death.
No one comes to the Father then through the Son.
So IF the Son wasn't there we would never reach the Father.
And that means we eternally stay in the state of "wages of sin is death"
Jesus saved us from being dead forever. Not for only a lifetime (or less)

I have never said that there is any other way to the Father but through the Son, but you asked "what if" Jesus never existed and I stand by my answer. There is no scenario in which Christ does not exist, so there is no "what if" to ponder.

The scriptures do not say "the wage of sin is eternal death".  

The wage of sin IS DEATH.

What "death" is brought about by sin?

Jas 1:13-15 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Is that taking about annihilation? Is this even talking about anything that is connected with our physical death in any way? Where, how, why and when do we suffer this "death"? Is it not IN THIS LIFE while we are prisoners of "the body of this death", subject to "the lust of THE FLESH" and "the things of THIS world"?

There is no scenario in which Christ does not exist, WhiteWings. Before God ever created this world or anything in it His plan to make man in His image and after His likeness included not only the penalty for sin that men would suffer in this world (death) but their salvation from it (Christ).

Men are not and never were "at risk" of being LOST or DEAD "forever". Our salvation was assured from the very foundation of the world. There is no such thing as "eternal death".

That which IS "eternal" comes FROM He who IS "eternal". No?

Eternal LIFE - comes FROM GOD (who IS eternal). No?

Eternal PUNISHMENT - comes FROM GOD (who IS eternal). No?

Everlasting MERCY  - comes FROM GOD (who IS eternal). No?

The scriptures speak of eternal LIFE, eternal POWER, eternal GLORY, eternal SALVATION, eternal JUDGMENT, eternal REDEMPTION, the eternal SPIRIT, our eternal INHERITANCE, even eternal FIRE.

But not once does it speak of eternal DEATH.

Death does not come FROM GOD. Does it?

Physical death is the consequence of our MORTALITY (not sin).

And MORTALITY (through which death comes) is swallowed up OF LIFE.

The last enemy (destroyed) IS DEATH.

Yes, it is destroyed by the death and RESURRECTION of Jesus Christ, but there is still no "what if Jesus never existed". Jesus was always part of the plan. And the "death" that we suffer as a result of sin has nothing to do with physical death and, therefore, could never result in "annihilation".

THE SPIRIT RETURNS TO GOD WHO GAVE IT! No?

I believe that this hell is simply a cleansing process, and every punishment is all necessary.  So, no poking of demons, or torture just for the fun of it.  If I am correct, the pain most likely would be humiliation, and having your sins burned away. 

Quote from: Chris on February 05, 2010, 02:35:26 AM
I wasn't talking about your questions, I was talking about how you ended the post after asking the questions.

Perhaps the end of my post sounded more blunt than it was intended.
All I was try to say if after a certain number of posts there is no progress made in understanding eachothers questions and/or answers there comes a point I call it a dead end.

QuoteAs far as ignoring my questions. I never accused of you ignoring my questions, I simply pointed out that you did not address everything I said in reply #45; you said so yourself in post #46 when you said you were just "snipping" parts of it to ask me questions. Right?

Yes I only "used" the parts that seemed relevant to me. That's part of the reason I wrote snipped.
But also a (vague) way saying I did read them. Plus if you have a general look at all my 4800+ posts you see that I regulary snip posts. I think snipped posts make things more readeble.

QuoteI have never said that there is any other way to the Father but through the Son,

I never claimed that.

Quotebut you asked "what if" Jesus never existed and I stand by my answer. There is no scenario in which Christ does not exist, so there is no "what if" to ponder.

That "what if" scenario is just a way of explaining.

QuoteThe scriptures do not say "the wage of sin is eternal death". 
The wage of sin IS DEATH.

Agreed. It doesn't say eternal. But neither does it say 'for a lifetime'.
The proof that death is not eternal is, well read a UR book of your choice.
For me the proof that death was eternal is that by the death and resurrection of Jesus the power of death was/is defeated.

The two underlined words are very important in what I'm trying to say.
And yes the plan to overcome death was made even before the first death occured.
So in reality not one person will suffer the eternal death.
But IMO that isn't because it doesn't exist but because the Lamb was slain at the foundation of the world. So eternal death was overcome before even Adam was made.

Bit more snipping... :winkgrin:

QuoteThere is no scenario in which Christ does not exist, WhiteWings. Before God ever created this world or anything in it His plan to make man in His image and after His likeness included not only the penalty for sin that men would suffer in this world (death) but their salvation from it (Christ).

Men are not and never were "at risk" of being LOST or DEAD "forever". Our salvation was assured from the very foundation of the world. There is no such thing as "eternal death".

Good we seem to agree on something :grin:
But my conclusion of what death is, was or never was if you like, is still eternal.

QuoteThat which IS "eternal" comes FROM He who IS "eternal". No?
Eternal LIFE - comes FROM GOD (who IS eternal). No?

Yes. Yes

QuoteEternal PUNISHMENT - comes FROM GOD (who IS eternal). No?

No. Punishment ends.

QuoteEverlasting MERCY  - comes FROM GOD (who IS eternal). No?

Yes.

Have me made any progress in this post Chris? Or are we at a dead end? :icon_jokercolor:

WhiteWings,

Why do you say that eternal punishment doesn't come from God just because it ends? When a parent punished their child, that punishment still comes from the parent, even though the punishment ends. And is it not GOD who is "chastening" HIS CHILDREN?

The fire that rained down from heaven for the punishment/destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah was FROM GOD, was it not? Or would you say that "the wrath of God" (poured out on the disobedient, as they suffer "the vengeance of eternal fire") does NOT come from God?

Do you believe in soul sleep WhiteWings? Because that is the only way that I can see how someone can also believe that "death" can be "eternal", as you would have to also believe that one ceases to live when they physically die and that it is, therefore, possible (theoretically) for someone to remain "eternally" dead.

If that is the case, then perhaps that is why we are speaking past each other. Because you (it seems) connect the penalty for sin to PHYSICAL death and, therefore (it seems) believe that "life" ENDS at physical death.

I, on the other hand, do not believe that life ends at PHYSICAL death; I believe that THE SPIRIT (in which LIFE IS) returns to God who gave it when THE FLESH (which profits nothing) returns to the dust of the ground from which it came.

I know that some will say that I am now "in bed with the churches of today"  :laughing7: because I believe in "the immortality of the soul" when "only Christ has immortality", but it is by being clothed WITH CHRIST that THIS MORTAL has "put on" IMMORTALITY. That has nothing to do with being "unclothed" (dying physically) according to the scriptures.

The "death" that men suffer due to sin is the same death Adam suffered in the garden (that was passed on TO ALL MEN) and that death was not his PHYSICAL death (which comes because men are MORTAL) but the fact that he was cast out of the garden to till the ground from which he came and no longer walked with God. It is THIS "death" that was passed on to all men. We ARE DEAD even while we "live" (physically).

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. 

How, why and when?

When sin is finished.

Jas 1:13-15 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

This "death" is experienced HERE (IN THE EARTH), while men are PHYSICALLY alive.

When we die THE FLESH returns to dust (from which is came) and THE SPIRIT returns to God (from which it came).

The only argument that you can possibly have against that (which is the same one I used to have when I believed in soul sleep) is that "the soul" goes to hades/sheol and awaits "the resurrection of the dead" and, therefore, if that resurrection never happens, then that soul (theoretically) suffers "eternal death".

The problem with that is the "death" that is suffered by men due to sin (the soul that sinneth, it shall die) has nothing to do with physical death and what happens to "the soul" when we die physically.

Adam was made A LIVING SOUL when God breathed THE BREATH OF LIFE into Him. This is a picture of God breathing LIFE (via THE HOLY SPIRIT) into those who are "dead" (after a spiritual truth) to give them LIFE (after a spiritual truth). This applies to THE LIVING (who are "dead" IN SIN) not to the corpses of men that have long since died, physically.

If Paul turned men over to satan FOR THE DESTRUCTION OF THE FLESH that their SPIRIT might be saved in the day of the Lord and THE SPIRIT RETURNS TO GOD who gave it when men die then how can the penalty for sin be "eternal death"?

THE SPIRIT will ALWAYS return to God, from whom it came, regardless of the fact that we might live our entire lives DEAD IN SIN, never having know God or Jesus Christ (which is what it means TO HAVE "eternal life"). No?

You'd have to claim (as I once did) that THE SPIRIT has nothing to do with the souls of men, that it is nothing but the spirit OF GOD and it is HIS SPIRIT (only) that returns TO HIM when men die... and "the soul" goes to the grave/hades/sheol. But to believe that is to miss (as I did) that it is THE SPIRIT that is quickened/saved and the physical grave is nothing more than a TYPE of "the body of this dead" that we are all prisoners of and need redemption from, in which OUR LIFE (CHRIST) IS HID.

We ARE DEAD (spiritually) even while we LIVE (physically).

This is "the death" that is "the wages of sin".

It has nothing to do with our physical death or with what happens to us when we die physically. When we die PHYSICALLY the flesh returns to dust and the spirit returns to God... and there is no "and the soul goes to hades to wait to be resurrected". We ARE "souls" (nephesh = "a breathing creature") and, as such we can either be ALIVE (having OUR SPIRIT quickened by God) OR DEAD (in sin). But this all happens "here" (IN THE EARTH, wherein both the righteous and the sinner/wicked are recompensed).

This is why I still stand by my statement that is no such thing as "annihilation" or "eternal death".

So I'll let you decide if we have hit a dead end here.  :winkgrin:

:girlheart:

Quote from: Chris on February 05, 2010, 02:17:39 PM
Why do you say that eternal punishment doesn't come from God just because it ends? When a parent punished their child, that punishment still comes from the parent, even though the punishment ends. And is it not GOD who is "chastening" HIS CHILDREN?

Agreed both God and 'the parent' chasten their children. But not eternally.

QuoteThe fire that rained down from heaven for the punishment/destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah was FROM GOD, was it not? Or would you say that "the wrath of God" (poured out on the disobedient, as they suffer "the vengeance of eternal fire") does NOT come from God?

It came from God but it was age-during fire. Not eternal.

QuoteDo you believe in soul sleep WhiteWings? Because that is the only way that I can see how someone can also believe that "death" can be "eternal", as you would have to also believe that one ceases to live when they physically die and that it is, therefore, possible (theoretically) for someone to remain "eternally" dead.

I'm not sure about soulsleep. Before Jesus I would say yes. (but not 100% sure) After Jesus... 50/50 I think.
But this topic has nothing to do with soul sleep. Asking that question unfortunately shows you still don't understand me.
Because what I wrote is totally unrelated with my views on soulsleep.

QuoteIf that is the case, then perhaps that is why we are speaking past each other. Because you (it seems) connect the penalty for sin to PHYSICAL death and, therefore (it seems) believe that "life" ENDS at physical death.

If there is spiritual and physical life then indeed life can end twice. A could write down my answer about spiritual death again; but I think that a bit useless.

QuoteI, on the other hand, do not believe that life ends at PHYSICAL death; I believe that THE SPIRIT (in which LIFE IS) returns to God who gave it when THE FLESH (which profits nothing) returns to the dust of the ground from which it came.

Sorry to say this again but that not relevant.

QuoteI know that some will say that I am now "in bed with the churches of today"  :laughing7: because I believe in "the immortality of the soul" when "only Christ has immortality", but it is by being clothed WITH CHRIST that THIS MORTAL has "put on" IMMORTALITY. That has nothing to do with being "unclothed" (dying physically) according to the scriptures.

I don't care if you are or are not in bed with church. Neither does it matter in this discussion, if the Bible says a spirit returns to God instantly of after 5 billion year of soulsleep. That's partly why I snipped parts of your previous posts.
They would only sidetrack the thread. But now I've peaked at teh end of the message and because we are at an eternaly dead end I mention it. :laughing7:

QuoteThe only argument that you can possibly have against that (which is the same one I used to have when I believed in soul sleep) is that "the soul" goes to hades/sheol and awaits "the resurrection of the dead" and, therefore, if that resurrection never happens, then that soul (theoretically) suffers "eternal death".

Chris that's not relevant because the discussion was about eternal death. And even 5 billion years is not eternal.

QuoteIf Paul turned men over to satan FOR THE DESTRUCTION OF THE FLESH that their SPIRIT might be saved in the day of the Lord and THE SPIRIT RETURNS TO GOD who gave it when men die then how can the penalty for sin be "eternal death"?

It not only can be eternal death. It is. But lets say Jesus has undone that.
Look at it this way. In some countries it's custom that at the birthday of the king a few prisoners get amnesty.
Say their sentence was 10 year and they arived in jail yesterday. Then the wages of their crimes still is 10 year of prison but the king undone that 10 years. 10 years=eternal. Jesus=King

QuoteSo I'll let you decide if we have hit a dead end here.  :winkgrin:

:BangHead: :BangHead: :BangHead:

 then why a hell at all?

  because He was slain before the foundation of the earth..

  because he was assigned a grave with the wicked in his death

  Psalms 16;10 because you will not abandon me to the grave

  Psalms 18;5 the coils of the grave coiled around me; the snares of death confronted me.


  Psalms 16;3  for great is your love toward me; you have delivered me from the depths of the grave

  Psalms 88;3 for my soul is full of trouble and my life draws near the grave,I am counted among those who go down to the pit.

   Psalms 89;48  what man can live and not see death, or save himself from the power of the grave?

  Psalms 139;8  if I go up to the heavens,you are there, if I make my bed in hell,you are there.

   Proverbs 1;12  let's swallow them alive,like the grave,and whole,like those who go down to the pit

  Proverbs 15;24 the path of life leads upward for the wise, to keep him from going down to the grave

  Proverbs 23;14 PUNISH HIM WITH THE ROD AND SAVE HIS SOUL FROM DEATH

  Isaaih 5;14 therefore the grave enlRGES IT'S APPETITE AND

OPENS IT'S MOUTH WITHOUT LIMIT.

  Isaaih 7;11 ask the Lord your God for a sign, WHETHER IN THE DEEPEST DEPTHS OR THE HIGHEST HEIGHTS

   Hosea 13;14  I will ransom them from the POWER OF THE GRAVE

Jonah 2;2  "in my distress I called to the Lord, and He answered

me.From THE DEPTHS OF THE GRAVE I CALLED FOR HELP

AND YOU LISTENED TO MY CRY.....the earth beneath barred me

in forever.BUT..YOU brought MY life UP from the PIT,O'LORD

MY GOD



  because God has said,

   NEVER WILL I LEAVE YOU; NEVER WILL I FORSAKE YOU


   FOR LOVE IS AS STRONG AS DEATH,IT"S JEALOUSY

  AS UNYEILDING AS THE GRAVE


   Mt 10;28  do not be afraid of those who can kill the body but can not kill the soul,Rather, be afraid of the One who can  destroy both soul and body in hell

  Luke 4;34 ...did you come to destroy us? I know who you are,the Holy one of God

   Luke 6;9 I ask you;which is lawful on the Sabbath; to do good or evil, to save a soul or destroy it

  Mt 12;11  If ANY of you has a sheep,and it fall into a pit...

ON THE SABBATH..WILL YOU not take hold of it

   and LIFT IT OUT?

Quote from: WhiteWings on February 05, 2010, 04:05:37 PM
Agreed both God and 'the parent' chasten their children. But not eternally.

No it doesn't last forever. But I asked if it doesn't come FROM GOD (who IS eternal) and you said NO? Why did you say no, then?

It is still CALLED "eternal fire". Isn't it? So what does "eternal" MEAN if it has nothing to do with "how long" the fire/punishment lasts?

QuoteIt came from God but it was age-during fire. Not eternal.

Agreed, but it is still called "eternal fire". Is it not? 

QuoteI'm not sure about soulsleep. Before Jesus I would say yes. (but not 100% sure) After Jesus... 50/50 I think.
But this topic has nothing to do with soul sleep. Asking that question unfortunately shows you still don't understand me.
Because what I wrote is totally unrelated with my views on soulsleep.

How can it not be related to the doctrine of soul sleep?

If the penalty for sin is ETERNAL DEATH and ALL MEN SIN then ALL MEN suffer ETERNAL DEATH for their sins. Right?

So if Jesus never existed (which was your "what if") then what happens when we physically die? We die and what? We "are dead" and will continue to BE DEAD "forever" (eternally) because there is NO RESURRECTION.

Isn't that what you are claiming; that the penalty for sin is ETERNAL DEATH, with NO RESURRECTION, which means that when we die (physically) we CEASE TO EXIST... FOREVER?

So then without Christ (your "what if") soul sleep has to be 100% true, according to what you are claiming about the penalty for sin, so how can you not be sure of that? And how can it not be relevant to this topic?

If it is FROM PHYSICAL DEATH (or SOUL SLEEP) that we are "resurrected" and we cannot BE RESURRECTED "if Christ never existed", then how can you not believe in soul sleep, when that is the very thing that you tying to "the penalty for sin" (eternal death) and "the resurrection of the dead"?

But, you are saying, because Christ DOES exist there is A RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD. No?

A resurrection of the dead FROM WHAT?

Your claim is FROM ETERNAL DEATH (permanent "soul sleep", so to speak). Is it not? 

QuoteIf there is spiritual and physical life then indeed life can end twice. A could write down my answer about spiritual death again; but I think that a bit useless.

What life "can" end twice? You are talking about two different kinds of "life" and we ALL suffer the death OF BOTH. We are ALL DEAD spiritually, are we not? And we ALL DIE physically, do we not? So we all die TWICE if you count BOTH, but only ONCE to each.

However, the scriptures speak of those who are TWICE DEAD and yet they are PHYSICALLY ALIVE, so what do we do with that?  :grin:

Quote from: WhiteWings

Quote from: ChrisI, on the other hand, do not believe that life ends at PHYSICAL death; I believe that THE SPIRIT (in which LIFE IS) returns to God who gave it when THE FLESH (which profits nothing) returns to the dust of the ground from which it came.

Sorry to say this again but that not relevant.

I think you are missing my point and the reason why I am pointing out that it is OUR SPIRIT that God bears witness to and OUR SPIRIT that is quickened/saved and THE SPIRIT that RETURNS TO GOD when we die.

Everyone who I know who believes in soul sleep (which is why I asked and why I brought up THE SPIRIT being saved/quickened) believes that "the spirit" that returns to God is HIS SPIRIT; that it is nothing more that "the spirit" that gives life to "the body", making THE BODY + THE SPIRIT = A LIVING SOUL.

So they claim (just as I once did) that when we die GOD'S SPIRIT returns to God and THE BODY returns to dust and THE SOUL is "dead" (or "asleep" = soul sleep) UNTIL God puts HIS SPIRIT back into THE BODY (= the resurrection of the dead) making us A LIVING SOUL - AGAIN - this time IMMORTAL.

The only way that can be true is if soul sleep is true. Right?

And the only way that "eternal death" can be the wages of sin is if "soul sleep" is also true. Right?

Yet you say you are not sure about soul sleep? How can one be true and not the other? How does one suffer eternal death if soul sleep is not true? Likewise, if soul sleep is not true, then how can eternal death be the penalty for sin?

Which is why I brought up THE SPIRIT. How can soul sleep be true if it is OUR SPIRIT that God bears witness to, that God quickens, and that God saves and THE SPIRIT RETURNS TO GOD when we die? And if the spirit returns to God when we die then how can the penalty for sin be eternal death?

QuoteI don't care if you are or are not in bed with church. Neither does it matter in this discussion, if the Bible says a spirit returns to God instantly of after 5 billion year of soulsleep. That's partly why I snipped parts of your previous posts.
They would only sidetrack the thread. But now I've peaked at teh end of the message and because we are at an eternaly dead end I mention it. :laughing7:

Can you show me where the bible says that the spirit does not return to God until billions of years of soul sleep?   

Quote from: WhiteWings

Quote from: ChrisThe only argument that you can possibly have against that (which is the same one I used to have when I believed in soul sleep) is that "the soul" goes to hades/sheol and awaits "the resurrection of the dead" and, therefore, if that resurrection never happens, then that soul (theoretically) suffers "eternal death".

Chris that's not relevant because the discussion was about eternal death. And even 5 billion years is not eternal.

Which is why I said "if that resurrection never happens".

Is that not what you are claiming, WhiteWings? That we would be DEAD FOREVER - IF THERE IS NO RESURRECTION (and Jesus PROVIDED that resurrection... and WITHOUT JESUS there would be NO RESURRECTION = ETERNAL DEATH)?

So then "eternal death" CANNOT EXIST without SOUL SLEEP. No?

But you claim you are not sure about SOUL SLEEP? So how can you be sure about ETERNAL DEATH?

One CANNOT suffer "eternal death" unless they are either annihilated WITHOUT THE NEED FOR A RESURRECTION FIRST... or they suffer death AND ARE NEVER RESURRECTED.

In the latter case soul sleep HAS TO BE TRUE and in the former case a resurrection (and, therefore, Jesus) IS NOT REQUIRED.

Don't you see that?

Quote from: WhiteWings

Quote from: ChrisIf Paul turned men over to satan FOR THE DESTRUCTION OF THE FLESH that their SPIRIT might be saved in the day of the Lord and THE SPIRIT RETURNS TO GOD who gave it when men die then how can the penalty for sin be "eternal death"?

It not only can be eternal death. It is. But lets say Jesus has undone that.
Look at it this way. In some countries it's custom that at the birthday of the king a few prisoners get amnesty.
Say their sentence was 10 year and they arived in jail yesterday. Then the wages of their crimes still is 10 year of prison but the king undone that 10 years. 10 years=eternal. Jesus=King

You are missing my point entirely.

What you are saying about the wages of sin being "eternal death" can only be true if soul sleep is true.

This connects the penalty for sin TO PHYSICAL DEATH because you are saying that if Jesus never existed then when we die PHYSICALLY there is NO RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD, so we REMAIN DEAD - FOREVER.

But in order to believe that you have to believe that Adam/man WAS IMMORTAL to begin with and the penalty for sin IS MORTALITY = PHYSICAL DEATH.

But if you say THAT then you are DENYING that ONLY CHRIST HAS IMMORTALITY.

LIFE AND IMMORTALITY comes through THE LAST ADAM (Christ) NOT THE FIRST. Correct?

So if Adam was MORTAL and ALREADY DYING PHYSICALLY (God said: "DYING, THOU DOST DIE"), then the penalty for sin was NEVER physical death and it is in NO WAY connected to it; so then neither can THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD be connected to it.

How can it be? It has to be connected to THE DEATH that Adam/man died DUE TO SIN.

And if the wages of sin IS NOT SOUL SLEEP then it CANNOT result in ETERNAL DEATH, can it?

And since THE SPIRIT RETURNS TO GOD WHO GAVE IT... including the spirit of those who ARE DEAD (IN SIN) never having known LIFE (in THIS world)... how can soul sleep be true?

Quote from: WhiteWings

Quote from: ChrisSo I'll let you decide if we have hit a dead end here.  :winkgrin:

:BangHead: :BangHead: :BangHead:

The spirit of God speaking through you, no doubt?  :sigh:

willieH: Hi Shiela... :hithere:

:hijacked:  :robinhood:  Don't mean to "sidetrack" the discussion...   :Oops:

But, much thanks to you for your post sis... :ty:

God used your post and these words below to (further) cement something I have believed for over 30 years!  Thank you for posting it... and praise Him for YOU using HIS WORD which says:

Quote from: sheila on February 05, 2010, 07:40:08 PM
Mt 12;11  If ANY of you has a sheep,and it fall into a pit...

ON THE SABBATH..WILL YOU not take hold of it

and LIFT IT OUT?

I believe (and have for 30+ years) that JESUS rose on the SABBATH  day, 3 days and 3 nights after His crucifixtion... and that HE (and His resurrection of LIFE, victorious over DEATH) is the BLESSING with which GOD "blessed" the SABBATH day... from the FOUNDATION of the WORLD -- Rev 13:8 -- RISING from the grave [pit] on the DAY of YHVH, the SABBATH -- Isaiah 66:22-23 -- Matt 12:8 -- Luke 6:5

Ex 20:11 -- for in six days YHVH made heaven and earty, the sea and all that in them is, and rested the SEVENTH day: wherefore YHVH -- BLESSED -- the SABBATH day -- and HALLOWED it. [made it Holy]

:Peace:

 :thumbsup:

Hey Willie!

I dreamed about your post all night last night and I kept waking up to the same thought/question over and over again with regard to THE SABBATH and how the writer of Hebrews said that while GOd limited THE SEVENTH DAY unto the Jews (according to THE LAW) that He limited ANOTHER DAY unto believers, calling it TODAY (when we hear His voice and harden not our hearts).

This is ~THE DAY~ that we ENTER INTO HIS REST (the true SABBATH), the DAY that he spoken of when He said to the thief on the cross TODAY shalt thou be with me IN PARADISE!!  as that is WHERE/WHEN we find THE TREE OF LIFE!!  :bowing:

I was also wondering if you were speaking of THE SABBATH as THE SEVENTH DAY in relation to THE LAW?

Or how THE FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK (= THE EIGHT DAY = THE BEGINNING OF A NEW CREATION??) might factor into that?

willieH: Hi Chris... :hithere:

This might take a mite of Splainin' Chris!  :laughing7:  So please forgive me if this Splainin" seems a bit long winded,  :blush: ...but DETAIL is necessary if one desires to note the TRUTH... (which is my desire, and which is STILL, a "work in process"  :mblush:)

You (and/or anyone else) are welcome to disagree with what I have to say below, I have no problem with that... as we are all learning as we go...  :Book: ...but this is how I see it...  :reachout:

And sorry if this sidetracks the thread...  :Oops:

Quote from: Chris on February 07, 2010, 07:54:12 PM
Hey Willie!

I dreamed about your post all night last night and I kept waking up to the same thought/question over and over again with regard to THE SABBATH and how the writer of Hebrews said that while GOd limited THE SEVENTH DAY unto the Jews (according to THE LAW) that He limited ANOTHER DAY unto believers, calling it TODAY (when we hear His voice and harden not our hearts).

The "limitation" as I see it, is the SABBATH that was UNFULFILLED in and by the JEWS (which were the 1st and NATURAL "people" of God)... YHVH often noted His discontent with the JEWS which had the LAW but continued to FAIL to keep that HOLY standard...

The "today" mentioned in Heb 4, is the SABBATH FULFILLED in and by CHRIST...

The "today" is seen in those which FOLLOW the "NATURAL" in divine order, and which are SPIRITUAL -- 1 Cor 15:46 -- and which KNOW CHRIST and are come to REST in the SPIRITUAL SABBATH that is the WORD FULFILLED by Him...

NOT another day ["eighth day"/FIRST DAY]... but the SABBATH [7th day] FULFILLED...

Quote from: Chris on February 07, 2010, 07:54:12 PMThis is ~THE DAY~ that we ENTER INTO HIS REST (the true SABBATH), the DAY that he spoken of when He said to the thief on the cross TODAY shalt thou be with me IN PARADISE!!  as that is WHERE/WHEN we find THE TREE OF LIFE!!  :bowing:

I was also wondering if you were speaking of THE SABBATH as THE SEVENTH DAY in relation to THE LAW?

Or how THE FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK (= THE EIGHT DAY = THE BEGINNING OF A NEW CREATION??) might factor into that?

As I observe the process, I do not see an "8th" day... I see the completion (omega) of the REVELATION of the Creation is the DAY [SABBATH] of YHVH which is noted AS HIS DAY, in both the Old and New Testaments...  (btw, the SABBATH day, is that which proceeds from the heart of YHVH which does NOT CHANGE -- the idea of an "8th day" proposes a change - IMO)

The SABBATH is the "day" in which ALL come to CEASE in their WORK and thereby, REST in His WORK... Which occurs for each soul that enters into the SABBATH which IS the WORD, which IS CHRIST.

GRACE and LAW are lined up to one another...  LAW is FULFILLED in GRACE... and when GRACE fulfilled the LAW... the LAW no longer is an "indicator" of SIN, for GRACE has fulfilled the LAW for the "ALL" which could NOT FULFILL it... as PAUL noted:

Rom 7:10-11 --- and the commandment which was ordained to LIFE, I FOUND to be unto DEATH... for SIN taking occasion BY the commandment, DECIEVED ME and by IT [the law], slew me.

Paul continues to explain that the LAW which is HOLY, JUST and GOOD, was NOT given to KILL, but to REVEAL Sin, for what IT IS:

Rom 7:12-13 --- wherefore the LAW is Holy [pure] and the commandment HOLY, JUST and GOOD... was then that which is GOOD made DEATH unto me? [here it comes:] GOD FORBID! [in other words THIS is NOT what is happening at all!] --- But SIN ---> that IT might APPEAR SIN, working DEATH in me by that [the LAW] which IS GOOD.  That SIN by the LAW might become EXCEEDING SINFUL...

This whole discourse of Paul's in Rom 7, is a description of that which is happening within ALL MEN... We ARE ALL, the Children of the Most High... and are each placed BY HIM, in this setting to LEARN (via the REVELATION of EXPERIENCE) and thereby do LIVE, the KNOWLEDGE of G & E, and because this KNOWLEDGE is a LIVING KNOWLEDGE (for it EXISTS in the Heart of YHVH), it is being LIVED by the CHILDREN of YHVH before ALL that exist (the heavens and the earth)...

Many think that man "FELL" from Grace... and that the PURPOSE of YHVH is to redeem us from that "FALL"... which is (forgive me), NONSENSE...

The PURPOSE of YHVH is being LIVED by His Children... before ALL the Heavens and Earth displaying the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL before the Heavens and Earth...

In doing so, the JOY, GOOD, and WONDER of LIFE is REVEALED to ALL, and relates by that elevation and REVELATION to all -- that YHVH is LOVE, and that JOY and HARMONY are found within the practice of His noted standard of LIFE which is contained within the LIVING and FULFILLMENT of that standard (the LAW)... which the WORD OBEDIENTLY lived in and before YHVH, as well as in and before the presence of DISOBEDIENCE (all men), dispensing that DISOBEDIENCE forever... for ALL men shall be made ALIVE -- IN CHRIST -- 1 Cor 15:22 -- and IN CHRIST there is NO DISOBEDIENCE...

The prophet Isaiah noted these words about the "SABBATH"

Isaiah 66:22 --- for as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make shall remain BEFORE ME, saith YHVH, so shall your SEED [all men] and your name [CHRIST-- for ALL are IN CHRIST] remain... and it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from ONE SABBATH to another, shall ALL FLESH come to worship before Me...

As I see it, this Scripture is noting that in turn [due time] EACH MAN shall enter the SABBATH... and in the ETERNAL setting, that WORSHIP will be ETERNAL before HIM, for ALL come to REST [each in due time] in the SABBATH which is CHRIST...  
"
The "NEW" (noted "new" heavens and "new" earth) is not a "REPLACEMENT"  or "RE-creation idea"... it is the RETURN to that which NEVER CHANGES, ...from the OLD which shall DIE in each of us, and ALWAYS CHANGED...  Back to the "NEW" which always IS the WORD manifest IN us, ...ALIVE and NEVER CHANGES... :boogie:

I believe that JESUS CHRIST rose on the SABBATH of YHVH... and IN THAT RESURRECTION is the SABBATH found complete and CHRIST IS the "blessing" which made the SABBATH -- HOLY -- Ex 20:11  

The "DAY" of the YHVH is the "DAY" in which His WORK is found COMPLETED (the SABBATH)...

ALL things are COMPLETE in CHRIST -- Col 1:20 -- 1 Cor 15:28 -- and GOD's WORK is seen COMPLETE in Him... and therefore REST in that COMPLETED WORK...

The "new creation" is a SPIRITUAL one... God shall NEVER destroy His Creation for His Creation (IMO) is not really a "creation" as we observe it... It is a REVELATION of WHAT already IS...

ALL THINGS are "made" by the WORD -- John 1:3 -- the WORD never changes -- Heb 13:8 -- so everything which proceeds FROM IT (the "Creation") is proceeding from an entity which NEVER CHANGES, so in turn IT shall never change for it is PART OF, and PROCEEDS FROM, the WORD.

The KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL is proceeding FROM the HEART of YHVH God, and is EXPRESSED by Him, within His REVEALED WORD -- Heb 1:3 --

The WORD is a REVELATION of the  :HeartThrob: of YHVH... as IS the Creation which is also REVEALED in that process...

Hope that gives you a bit of how I presently see this...  :mfriends:  Sorry for standing on the  :soap: box for so long...  :mblush:

 

great posting  :thumbsup:.......

 saw this Jhn 12:1 Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead.  

  For me Jesus Christ is the Sabbath Day / Light of Day is come
  He is the rest , we seek after and to keep  Holy ..

 Jesus was sent in the fulness of time !!!

 Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knows the Son, but the Father;

neither knows any man the Father, save the Son, and [he] to whomsoever the Son will reveal [him].  


Mat 11:28   Come unto me, all [ye] that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.  


 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and you shall find rest unto your souls.  


  For my yoke [is] easy, and my burden is light.  
Sabbath /  Jesus Holy One / Day  made for man , not the  man made for the Sabbath /Jesus ..........

 :icon_flower:

    :thumbsup:  way to go Willie !  
you splained it well!!!!  :HeartThrob: ps wez were writing at the same time lol....

And in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease.

peacemaker

Hi Willie,

I have to re-read your post again, but I just wanted to point out that I was not calling "the eighth day" the "another day" which was spoken of with regard to THE SABBATH, as it called "TODAY" and I see that in relation to when we hear His voice and harden not our hearts and enter into HIS REST - through BELIEF.

Sorry if I gave you the impression that I was calling THE EIGHTH/FIRST DAY the SABBATH. Not at all.

I only mentioned the eighth day with regard to the fact that it was before "in the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week" when Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the sepulchre of Christ and found it empty and it was "in the eighth day" that "the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised".

I might have more to add after I re-read your post; have to go back to do that but wanted to clear that up and am running out of time before the Superbowl begins.... so GEAUX SAINTS!! Hope to get  back to this soon, though.

Thanks again!!

willieH: Hi Chris... :hithere:

Quote from: Chris on February 08, 2010, 12:32:00 AM
Hi Willie,

I have to re-read your post again, but I just wanted to point out that I was not calling "the eighth day" the "another day" which was spoken of with regard to THE SABBATH, as it called "TODAY" and I see that in relation to when we hear His voice and harden not our hearts and enter into HIS REST - through BELIEF.

In speaking to the "thief"... He was just notifying "today" that the thief WOULD BE with Him IN PARADISE... it absolutely did NOT occur on the "today" of His crucifixtion for He was to spend 3 DAYS and 3 NIGHTS fulfilling the SIGN of the Prophet Jonah.

Also, even though resurrected, He had NOT ASCENDED to the Father, until after speaking with Mary, for He so noted this...

QuoteSorry if I gave you the impression that I was calling THE EIGHTH/FIRST DAY the SABBATH. Not at all.

You didn't sis... I was just detailing that the SABBATH is something that shall NEVER CHANGE... for it is part of a LAW, as written in the WORD, which is UNCHANGING.

QuoteI only mentioned the eighth day with regard to the fact that it was before "in the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week" when Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the sepulchre of Christ and found it empty and it was "in the eighth day" that "the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised".

The "dawning" toward are the keywords... the 8th day had yet to arrive, for it was being "dawned toward"...

Also... CHRIST had already RISEN before they arrived at the tomb... They arrived on the "1st/8th day"... but that does not mean that He had RISEN on that day... only that upon their arrival on that day, He was already RISEN... :nod:

QuoteI might have more to add after I re-read your post; have to go back to do that but wanted to clear that up and am running out of time before the Superbowl begins.... so GEAUX SAINTS!! Hope to get  back to this soon, though.

Thanks again!!

Hey!  I'm for the Saints as well!  GEAUX SAINTS!  :bgdance:

Peace, sis...

Quote from: willieH on February 08, 2010, 01:01:20 AM
willieH: Hi Chris... :hithere:

Quote from: Chris on February 08, 2010, 12:32:00 AM
Hi Willie,

I have to re-read your post again, but I just wanted to point out that I was not calling "the eighth day" the "another day" which was spoken of with regard to THE SABBATH, as it called "TODAY" and I see that in relation to when we hear His voice and harden not our hearts and enter into HIS REST - through BELIEF.

In speaking to the "thief"... He was just notifying "today" that the thief WOULD BE with Him IN PARADISE... it absolutely did NOT occur on the "today" of His crucifixtion for He was to spend 3 DAYS and 3 NIGHTS fulfilling the SIGN of the Prophet Jonah.

I disagree. That would be extremely inconsistent with the way that Jesus spoke in every other instance recorded in the NT where He said: "Verily, I say unto thee, [fill in the appropriate blank]".

Jesus words are SPIRIT and they are LIFE and the truth is:

TODAY SHALT THOU BE WITH ME IN PARADISE!  :thumbsup:

Why? Because TODAY (when we hear His voice and harden not out hearts) is THE DAY OF THE LORD.

The TREE OF LIFE ~IS IN THE MIDST OF~ THE PARADISE OF GOD and it is ~WHEN WE HEAR HIS VOICE AND HARDEN NOT OUR HEARTS~ that we are able to PARTAKE OF THE TREE OF LIFE. NO?

It is A SPIRITUAL TRUTH that has nothing to do with Christ's PHYSICAL BODY being is A PHYSICAL GRAVE, as far as I can tell.

Christ FIRST DESCENDED before He ASCENDED and, spiritually speaking, Christ "first descended" (into the lowest parts of the earth) when the Word was MADE FLESH, not when he was crucified on the cross 33 years later.  And His earthly ministry was not over until He ASCENDED 40 days after His resurrection.

QuoteAlso, even though resurrected, He had NOT ASCENDED to the Father, until after speaking with Mary, for He so noted this...

Are you claiming that Christ's blood had NOT YET been sprinkled on the mercy seat of God IN HEAVEN? Even THREE DAYS AFTER his blood was shed?

I think you are misunderstanding what Christ meant, as Christ did not ASCEND until He was received INTO A CLOUD 40 days after His resurrection.

Quote from: WillieH

Quote from: ChrisSorry if I gave you the impression that I was calling THE EIGHTH/FIRST DAY the SABBATH. Not at all.

You didn't sis... I was just detailing that the SABBATH is something that shall NEVER CHANGE... for it is part of a LAW, as written in the WORD, which is UNCHANGING.

Which has nothing to do with a physical rest entered into physically on a physical day, if we are talking spiritual truths and not the 'types' which merely pointed to them. No?

Quote from: WillieH

Quote from: ChrisI only mentioned the eighth day with regard to the fact that it was before "in the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week" when Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the sepulchre of Christ and found it empty and it was "in the eighth day" that "the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised".

The "dawning" toward are the keywords... the 8th day had yet to arrive, for it was being "dawned toward"...

Also... CHRIST had already RISEN before they arrived at the tomb... They arrived on the "1st/8th day"... but that does not mean that He had RISEN on that day... only that upon their arrival on that day, He was already RISEN... :nod:

Something that was only MADE MANIFEST to them ~WHEN~ they SAW THE RISEN LORD.  :thumbsup:

Quote from: WillieH

Quote from: ChrisI might have more to add after I re-read your post; have to go back to do that but wanted to clear that up and am running out of time before the Superbowl begins.... so GEAUX SAINTS!! Hope to get  back to this soon, though.

Thanks again!!

Hey!  I'm for the Saints as well!  GEAUX SAINTS!  :bgdance:

YEAH BABY!! SUPERBOWL CHAMPS!!! 

:bgdance: :boydance: :egyptdance: :boogie: :rocker :happyclap: :high5: :Party: :clapping: :cheerleader: :Gclap: :gguitar:

QuotePeace, sis...

...willieH   :HeartThrob:

PEACE!  :thumbsup:

Quote from: NinjaWizards777 on December 01, 2009, 10:11:12 PM
I had someone ask me this today, and Im trying to think of a good way to word my response.

So then God has both already punished said sin in Christ yet these people who are/will be in hell will also pay that same debit for a period of time. How do you reconcile this, it is literally the definition of unjust, if Christ paid the sin for every one then why a hell at all?

The simple answer is that because Jesus paid the "death" penalty for sin and the penalty only had to be paid once, no one will ever receive punishment or "retribution" for their sins. When God judges our sin, His purpose is positive, not negative, it is for the purpose of correction and guidance, not retribution. This is true for both Christians and non-Christions alike.

willieH: Hi Chris... :hithere:

Quote from: Chris on February 08, 2010, 12:32:00 AM
Hi Willie,

I have to re-read your post again, but I just wanted to point out that I was not calling "the eighth day" the "another day" which was spoken of with regard to THE SABBATH, as it called "TODAY" and I see that in relation to when we hear His voice and harden not our hearts and enter into HIS REST - through BELIEF.

Quote from: willieH on February 08, 2010, 01:01:20 AMIn speaking to the "thief"... He was just notifying "today" that the thief WOULD BE with Him IN PARADISE... it absolutely did NOT occur on the "today" of His crucifixtion for He was to spend 3 DAYS and 3 NIGHTS fulfilling the SIGN of the Prophet Jonah.

Quote from: Chris on February 12, 2010, 08:55:34 PMI disagree. That would be extremely inconsistent with the way that Jesus spoke in every other instance recorded in the NT where He said: "Verily, I say unto thee, [fill in the appropriate blank]".

You are welcome to this perception sis, it is however not really conclusive.  JESUS did not say that everytime He spoke the word "verily" which means "truly", that in that moment would the TRUTH of which He spoke, immediately be manifest in TIME.

I won't get into great detail at this time, but there are many instances of the use of the word VERILY that did not equate to an IMMEDIATE manifestation... Here are a few:

Matt 5:18 -- the LAW had yet to be fulfilled, even though (it was TRUE that) when it WOULD BE fulfilled --- not 1 jot or tittle would be passed from it...

Matt 8:10 -- even though (it was TRUE to this point in time) that He had not seen such faith in Israel, did not mean He would NEVER see it manifest in ISRAEL...

I don't wish to spend too much time splitting hairs (or teeth)  :Sparkletooth: with the word "VERILY"...  You are welcome to believe what you wish...  :cloud9:

Quote from: Chris on February 12, 2010, 08:55:34 PMJesus words are SPIRIT and they are LIFE and the truth is:

TODAY SHALT THOU BE WITH ME IN PARADISE!  :thumbsup:

FIRST -- I disagree...  :happygrin:

SECOND -- this is only PART of what He said...  And JESUS said unto him... "verily I say unto you TODAY... thou shalt be with Me in paradise"

In the original language this was written in,  PUNCTUATIONS did not exist.  Neither did chapter or verse designations... This did not mean that DIALOGUE that CHRIST spoke, did not have PUNCTUATION within it...

That there is an absent COMMA which would bring REASON to this statement, is IMO a given. (you are welcome to disagree, doesn't matter to me)

As I see it, ...It is UNREASONABLE for the SCRIPTURES to say that CHRIST DIED (BTW... the dead KNOW NOT ANYTHING -- Ecc 9:5)... as well as noting in several places such as -- AFTER 3 Days (or on the 3rd day) He would RISE from DEATH --- and then "a breath later" maintain that He entered PARADISE upon the moment of His DEATH, taking the THIEF to the promise that has been denied such as Moses, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Joseph, Jacob, etc [Heb 11 entire chapter]... This is contradictory.  

Either the witness in Scripture is truth... or it is not... The Scripture says HE TASTED DEATH for every man -- Heb 2:9 -- which means that He had to DIE as did any other man... many of which are listed as STILL DEAD later in Heb 11:13...

There are NO WITNESSES in the WORD which note Him as LIVING during the period of the 3 days that SCRIPTURE says He would be DEAD, and after those 3 days, RISE again...

Please name one.  Anything can be assumed by misunderstanding of Scripture elsewhere but please name ONE TESTIMONY of Him as ALIVE during these 3 days...

If you can come up with one, then the burden of explanation of that text is upon me... Until you prove otherwise sis, ...I just do not believe such a verse is in there...  :mnah:

Quote from: Chris on February 12, 2010, 08:55:34 PMWhy? Because TODAY (when we hear His voice and harden not out hearts) is THE DAY OF THE LORD.

It is the "DAY" of YHVH... Not the day of the MAN, ...JESUS CHRIST... the MAN, JESUS CHRIST, died and was DEAD "in time" (completely inanimate and inactive) for 3 DAYS and 3 NIGHTS -- OF TIME... Matt 12:40 -- If CHRIST actually was NOT IN the TOMB AS was Jonah IN the belly of the "whale"... then this Scripture is (as are several others) a false witness.

CHRIST the man was NOT GOD... the WORD which permeated Him... was and IS.

The WORD cannot DIE and still be called UNCHANGING for if the WORD is indeed ALIVE (which it IS)... Then it is ALWAYS ALIVE...  CHRIST the MAN, DIED... the WORD which is YHVH GOD... remained ALIVE, and removed itself from Him before He DIED, ...SO... that He could DIE...

The WORD is that which is emergent from the HEART of YHVH God... it is the POWER of YHVH... it is NOT a separate "person" from Him... it is the PROJECTION of Himself (being silent and invisible) in "audible and visible" terms... it was ANIMATED and MADE observeable -- via the MAN, JESUS CHRIST...

The MAN, JESUS CHRIST -- 1 Tim 2:5 -- is the ONLY SON which did NOT do other than the WILL of the WORD within Him -- John 5:19 --

ALL other men, OPPOSE the "COMMAND/WILL" of YHVH, even though they are emergent FROM YHVH -- John 1:3 -- and that LIGHT/Will,  IS within them -- John 1:9

Quote from: Chris on February 12, 2010, 08:55:34 PMChrist FIRST DESCENDED before He ASCENDED and, spiritually speaking, Christ "first descended" (into the lowest parts of the earth) when the Word was MADE FLESH, not when he was crucified on the cross 33 years later.  And His earthly ministry was not over until He ASCENDED 40 days after His resurrection.

"Ascended"?   ...from WHERE, Chris?  You have maintained that He was ALREADY in PARADISE on the Day of His death! (with the "thief") :dontknow:

Quote from: willieHAlso, even though resurrected, He had NOT ASCENDED to the Father, until after speaking with Mary, for He so noted this...

Quote from: Chris on February 12, 2010, 08:55:34 PMAre you claiming that Christ's blood had NOT YET been sprinkled on the mercy seat of God IN HEAVEN? Even THREE DAYS AFTER his blood was shed?

TIME is not necessary (3 "days" which requires "72 hrs" of time to elapse) in the TRUE understanding of this Chris.  

The WORD is ETERNAL... CHRIST was slain, before the WORLD began... the "BLOOD" was not placed upon the "mercy seat" on the DAY of the crucifixtion, ...IT was, is and always will be upon the mercy seat of YHVH... this ETERNAL UNCHANGING fact, ...did not (does not, will not) "need" manifestation of PHYSICAL things within TIME, in order to BE.

HOWEVER... the ORDINATIONS from ETERNITY which ALREADY always, ARE, ...occur as an ordered procession DECLARED by YHVH within the passing of CREATED TIME... GOD proclaimed the END from the BEGINNING... which includes ALL EVENTS and ALL MOMENTS in between those 2 points.  

But He has established those 2 points, to REVEAL the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL... one of which was the MOMENT CHRIST ...died... and REMAINED for the entirety of 3 COMPLETE days in time, which He spent INANIMATE as part of this realm --- within the TOMB...

It is the GLORY of GOD to recognize that HE does not require ANY works of MAN, within EVERY moment of man's history... to BE ...IN... those moments.  

GOD is "AS" -- "IN" yesterday as He is "IN" today, and as He already is, "IN" tomorrow...

As well as recognizing the fact that the "UNIQUE and MOVING procession of TIME", is ordained and emergent from HIM as the ISOLATED realm where is found the REVELATION of the KNOWLEDGE of G & E... contained within HIS HEART where LIVES, ...HIS WORD...

Quote from: Chris on February 12, 2010, 08:55:34 PMI think you are misunderstanding what Christ meant, as Christ did not ASCEND until He was received INTO A CLOUD 40 days after His resurrection.

I think it is you which are misunderstanding, dear one...

Wait a minute or 3!  :umnick:  ...I thought you believe that He "ascended" to PARADISE with the THIEF, on crucifixtion day?  :dunno:

Quote from: WillieH

Quote from: ChrisSorry if I gave you the impression that I was calling THE EIGHTH/FIRST DAY the SABBATH. Not at all.

You didn't sis... I was just detailing that the SABBATH is something that shall NEVER CHANGE... for it is part of a LAW, as written in the WORD, which is UNCHANGING.

The SABBATH in all aspects that it is... The COMPLETION of the "week", the COMPLETION of "salvation", the COMPLETION that is CHRIST, the COMPLETION that COMPLETES all things... is that which IS the SABBATH...

Just as UR is contained in the word chURch... the ABBA [alpha & omega] is contained in the word sABBAth -- I know these are English words... but there are NO COINCIDENCES concerning GOD...

Quote from: Chris on February 12, 2010, 08:55:34 PMWhich has nothing to do with a physical rest entered into physically on a physical day, if we are talking spiritual truths and not the 'types' which merely pointed to them. No?

FIRST --- the "SABBATH" is the "DAY" of YHVH... which ALWAYS ...IS... it is the COMPLETION [perfection] of DAYS... it is the REST which is found in ALL things that REST in Him...  That it is shown to be the CULMINATION of the working of MAN, only notes that all WORK of man (6 days) (men = EXTENSIONS of YHVH), ...is/are found CONCLUDED in it.

SECOND --- It is a weekly picture or notation in TIME, of the journey ALL things take... each "beginning" by EMERGING from YHVH, and each concluding by ENDING in YHVH...

The ALPHA and OMEGA... the END... IS... the BEGINNING... and the BEGINNING... IS the END -- Rev 1:8 -- I AM   [present tense] the ALPHA and OMEGA... the beginning and the end...

Here is the ETERNAL equation, Chris:  

:nod: The BEGINNING is the END = <<YHVH>> = The END is the BEGINNING :nod:



...willieH    :HeartThrob:

Jesus spoke of Abrahams bossom, where did this idea come from?

Quote from: NinjaWizards777 on December 01, 2009, 10:11:12 PM
I had someone ask me this today, and Im trying to think of a good way to word my response.

So then God has both already punished said sin in Christ yet these people who are/will be in hell will also pay that same debit for a period of time. How do you reconcile this, it is literally the definition of unjust, if Christ paid the sin for every one then why a hell at all?

Just because I am saved...it doesn't mean I'm except from the sometimes painful process of purification.  The act of purification should not be mixed with the notion of a punitive hell. 

Quote from: NinjaWizards777 on December 02, 2009, 02:55:14 AM
its still confusing trying to explain how Jesus paid for everyones sins, yet most will still have to suffer temporarily for those sins. I realize there is a corrective aspect to it, and is the sole purpose behind it but still

If I sin I pay consequences for that sin.  Just because Jesus saved us from death doesn't mean he saved us from some of the temporal consequences of sin.  Those consequences purify us. 

Think of it this way.  A good father would never allow his children to be free from the consequences of bad behavior.  Why?  That is a form of abuse.  You are stealing teaching moments from your child to calm your own cognitive dissonance.   A good father allows his children to experience a certain amount of pain so they may learn. 

Quote from: lomarah on December 09, 2009, 02:37:21 PM
Thought i'd add my two cents about judgement and the lake of fire.  :bigGrin:
One man says that he asked God what happens in "hell" and God showed him. Here is a quote from his site:

QuoteYes, there is a Hell. It is very uncomfortable, to say the least. It is not like Dante's inferno. It is not physical fire and brimstone; these are physical symbols of the spiritual, for example: "Our God is a consuming fire." Heb 12:29. There is also a burning within you to do something; the burning of lust, as described in Romans 1:27, but in a burning intensity greater than you have ever known. It is raging obsession. It is hyper sin city - complete mutual rage, complete mutual lust, etc. The brimstone, sulphur, (when burned sulphur produces sulphur dioxide, used for purification and bleaching), symbolizes a spiritual purification agent. I was taken there because I prayed, sincerely doubting there was a Hell. This is what I felt and saw:

1) I was in a cavern underground. It was totally dark. I knew I was being hunted by someone else. I knew I was hunting him. It was kill or be killed. There was a lot of fear and adrenalin. Suddenly it was light, and in front of me was the person I was hunting and who had been hunting me. We clubbed each other frantically. The light went out. I was in a cavern underground. It was totally dark. I knew I was being hunted ........ a loop that I felt like was going to go on forever.

2) I was then immediately transferred to a lighted cavern, escorted, with hallways and rooms off to the side. In each room was a nude woman and a bed. The only woman I saw was still somewhat attractive, but looked very tired and used to the point that her skin was beginning to dry and ripple slightly. I knew, without having to participate, that this was perpetual sex with someone in each room. I knew that this would go on, over and over and over and would at least seem like "forever." It was not appealing. It was not sickening. It just was. That was the end of my experience in Hell. It was enough to convince me it was real.

http://hallvworthington.com/hopeforall.html

I have also heard of another person seeing this type of experience in "hell". It would seem to me that maybe whatever sin a person is addicted to they have to become so sick of doing it that they would never want to do it again... I dunno, just my guess.  :dontknow:

I have seen it referred to as sin sick.  I have experienced it myself.  It seems the only way the Lord liberated me from certain vices was turning me over to them.  While they took their toll...he never let me go.

QuoteIf I sin I pay consequences for that sin.  Just because Jesus saved us from death doesn't mean he saved us from some of the temporal consequences of sin.  Those consequences purify us. 

Think of it this way.  A good father would never allow his children to be free from the consequences of bad behavior.  Why?  That is a form of abuse.  You are stealing teaching moments from your child to calm your own cognitive dissonance.   A good father allows his children to experience a certain amount of pain so they may learn. 

Very well put. The consequences teach us valuable lessons. They are not punitive, but corrective.

Quote from: richardinparadise on July 16, 2010, 06:24:53 AM

QuoteIf I sin I pay consequences for that sin.  Just because Jesus saved us from death doesn't mean he saved us from some of the temporal consequences of sin.  Those consequences purify us. 

Think of it this way.  A good father would never allow his children to be free from the consequences of bad behavior.  Why?  That is a form of abuse.  You are stealing teaching moments from your child to calm your own cognitive dissonance.   A good father allows his children to experience a certain amount of pain so they may learn. 

Very well put. The consequences teach us valuable lessons. They are not punitive, but corrective.

Amen.

Jer 2:19     "Thine own wickedness 7451 shall correct 3256 thee, and thy backslidings 4878 shall reprove 3198 thee..."

Quote from: willieH on June 02, 2010, 09:54:39 AM
willieH: Hi Chris... :hithere:

Quote from: Chris on February 08, 2010, 12:32:00 AM
Hi Willie,

I have to re-read your post again, but I just wanted to point out that I was not calling "the eighth day" the "another day" which was spoken of with regard to THE SABBATH, as it called "TODAY" and I see that in relation to when we hear His voice and harden not our hearts and enter into HIS REST - through BELIEF.

Quote from: willieH on February 08, 2010, 01:01:20 AMIn speaking to the "thief"... He was just notifying "today" that the thief WOULD BE with Him IN PARADISE... it absolutely did NOT occur on the "today" of His crucifixtion for He was to spend 3 DAYS and 3 NIGHTS fulfilling the SIGN of the Prophet Jonah.

Quote from: Chris on February 12, 2010, 08:55:34 PMI disagree. That would be extremely inconsistent with the way that Jesus spoke in every other instance recorded in the NT where He said: "Verily, I say unto thee, [fill in the appropriate blank]".

You are welcome to this perception sis, it is however not really conclusive.  JESUS did not say that everytime He spoke the word "verily" which means "truly", that in that moment would the TRUTH of which He spoke, immediately be manifest in TIME.

I won't get into great detail at this time, but there are many instances of the use of the word VERILY that did not equate to an IMMEDIATE manifestation... Here are a few:

Matt 5:18 -- the LAW had yet to be fulfilled, even though (it was TRUE that) when it WOULD BE fulfilled --- not 1 jot or tittle would be passed from it...

Matt 8:10 -- even though (it was TRUE to this point in time) that He had not seen such faith in Israel, did not mean He would NEVER see it manifest in ISRAEL...

I don't wish to spend too much time splitting hairs (or teeth)  :Sparkletooth: with the word "VERILY"...  You are welcome to believe what you wish...  :cloud9:

Quote from: Chris on February 12, 2010, 08:55:34 PMJesus words are SPIRIT and they are LIFE and the truth is:

TODAY SHALT THOU BE WITH ME IN PARADISE!  :thumbsup:

FIRST -- I disagree...  :happygrin:

SECOND -- this is only PART of what He said...  And JESUS said unto him... "verily I say unto you TODAY... thou shalt be with Me in paradise"

In the original language this was written in,  PUNCTUATIONS did not exist.  Neither did chapter or verse designations... This did not mean that DIALOGUE that CHRIST spoke, did not have PUNCTUATION within it...

That there is an absent COMMA which would bring REASON to this statement, is IMO a given. (you are welcome to disagree, doesn't matter to me)

As I see it, ...It is UNREASONABLE for the SCRIPTURES to say that CHRIST DIED (BTW... the dead KNOW NOT ANYTHING -- Ecc 9:5)... as well as noting in several places such as -- AFTER 3 Days (or on the 3rd day) He would RISE from DEATH --- and then "a breath later" maintain that He entered PARADISE upon the moment of His DEATH, taking the THIEF to the promise that has been denied such as Moses, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Joseph, Jacob, etc [Heb 11 entire chapter]... This is contradictory.  

Either the witness in Scripture is truth... or it is not... The Scripture says HE TASTED DEATH for every man -- Heb 2:9 -- which means that He had to DIE as did any other man... many of which are listed as STILL DEAD later in Heb 11:13...

There are NO WITNESSES in the WORD which note Him as LIVING during the period of the 3 days that SCRIPTURE says He would be DEAD, and after those 3 days, RISE again...

Please name one.  Anything can be assumed by misunderstanding of Scripture elsewhere but please name ONE TESTIMONY of Him as ALIVE during these 3 days...

If you can come up with one, then the burden of explanation of that text is upon me... Until you prove otherwise sis, ...I just do not believe such a verse is in there...  :mnah:

Quote from: Chris on February 12, 2010, 08:55:34 PMWhy? Because TODAY (when we hear His voice and harden not out hearts) is THE DAY OF THE LORD.

It is the "DAY" of YHVH... Not the day of the MAN, ...JESUS CHRIST... the MAN, JESUS CHRIST, died and was DEAD "in time" (completely inanimate and inactive) for 3 DAYS and 3 NIGHTS -- OF TIME... Matt 12:40 -- If CHRIST actually was NOT IN the TOMB AS was Jonah IN the belly of the "whale"... then this Scripture is (as are several others) a false witness.

CHRIST the man was NOT GOD... the WORD which permeated Him... was and IS.

The WORD cannot DIE and still be called UNCHANGING for if the WORD is indeed ALIVE (which it IS)... Then it is ALWAYS ALIVE...  CHRIST the MAN, DIED... the WORD which is YHVH GOD... remained ALIVE, and removed itself from Him before He DIED, ...SO... that He could DIE...

The WORD is that which is emergent from the HEART of YHVH God... it is the POWER of YHVH... it is NOT a separate "person" from Him... it is the PROJECTION of Himself (being silent and invisible) in "audible and visible" terms... it was ANIMATED and MADE observeable -- via the MAN, JESUS CHRIST...

The MAN, JESUS CHRIST -- 1 Tim 2:5 -- is the ONLY SON which did NOT do other than the WILL of the WORD within Him -- John 5:19 --

ALL other men, OPPOSE the "COMMAND/WILL" of YHVH, even though they are emergent FROM YHVH -- John 1:3 -- and that LIGHT/Will,  IS within them -- John 1:9

Quote from: Chris on February 12, 2010, 08:55:34 PMChrist FIRST DESCENDED before He ASCENDED and, spiritually speaking, Christ "first descended" (into the lowest parts of the earth) when the Word was MADE FLESH, not when he was crucified on the cross 33 years later.  And His earthly ministry was not over until He ASCENDED 40 days after His resurrection.

"Ascended"?   ...from WHERE, Chris?  You have maintained that He was ALREADY in PARADISE on the Day of His death! (with the "thief") :dontknow:

Quote from: willieHAlso, even though resurrected, He had NOT ASCENDED to the Father, until after speaking with Mary, for He so noted this...

Quote from: Chris on February 12, 2010, 08:55:34 PMAre you claiming that Christ's blood had NOT YET been sprinkled on the mercy seat of God IN HEAVEN? Even THREE DAYS AFTER his blood was shed?

TIME is not necessary (3 "days" which requires "72 hrs" of time to elapse) in the TRUE understanding of this Chris.  

The WORD is ETERNAL... CHRIST was slain, before the WORLD began... the "BLOOD" was not placed upon the "mercy seat" on the DAY of the crucifixtion, ...IT was, is and always will be upon the mercy seat of YHVH... this ETERNAL UNCHANGING fact, ...did not (does not, will not) "need" manifestation of PHYSICAL things within TIME, in order to BE.

HOWEVER... the ORDINATIONS from ETERNITY which ALREADY always, ARE, ...occur as an ordered procession DECLARED by YHVH within the passing of CREATED TIME... GOD proclaimed the END from the BEGINNING... which includes ALL EVENTS and ALL MOMENTS in between those 2 points.  

But He has established those 2 points, to REVEAL the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL... one of which was the MOMENT CHRIST ...died... and REMAINED for the entirety of 3 COMPLETE days in time, which He spent INANIMATE as part of this realm --- within the TOMB...

It is the GLORY of GOD to recognize that HE does not require ANY works of MAN, within EVERY moment of man's history... to BE ...IN... those moments.  

GOD is "AS" -- "IN" yesterday as He is "IN" today, and as He already is, "IN" tomorrow...

As well as recognizing the fact that the "UNIQUE and MOVING procession of TIME", is ordained and emergent from HIM as the ISOLATED realm where is found the REVELATION of the KNOWLEDGE of G & E... contained within HIS HEART where LIVES, ...HIS WORD...

Quote from: Chris on February 12, 2010, 08:55:34 PMI think you are misunderstanding what Christ meant, as Christ did not ASCEND until He was received INTO A CLOUD 40 days after His resurrection.

I think it is you which are misunderstanding, dear one...

Wait a minute or 3!  :umnick:  ...I thought you believe that He "ascended" to PARADISE with the THIEF, on crucifixtion day?  :dunno:

Quote from: WillieH

Quote from: ChrisSorry if I gave you the impression that I was calling THE EIGHTH/FIRST DAY the SABBATH. Not at all.

You didn't sis... I was just detailing that the SABBATH is something that shall NEVER CHANGE... for it is part of a LAW, as written in the WORD, which is UNCHANGING.

The SABBATH in all aspects that it is... The COMPLETION of the "week", the COMPLETION of "salvation", the COMPLETION that is CHRIST, the COMPLETION that COMPLETES all things... is that which IS the SABBATH...

Just as UR is contained in the word chURch... the ABBA [alpha & omega] is contained in the word sABBAth -- I know these are English words... but there are NO COINCIDENCES concerning GOD...

Quote from: Chris on February 12, 2010, 08:55:34 PMWhich has nothing to do with a physical rest entered into physically on a physical day, if we are talking spiritual truths and not the 'types' which merely pointed to them. No?

FIRST --- the "SABBATH" is the "DAY" of YHVH... which ALWAYS ...IS... it is the COMPLETION [perfection] of DAYS... it is the REST which is found in ALL things that REST in Him...  That it is shown to be the CULMINATION of the working of MAN, only notes that all WORK of man (6 days) (men = EXTENSIONS of YHVH), ...is/are found CONCLUDED in it.

SECOND --- It is a weekly picture or notation in TIME, of the journey ALL things take... each "beginning" by EMERGING from YHVH, and each concluding by ENDING in YHVH...

The ALPHA and OMEGA... the END... IS... the BEGINNING... and the BEGINNING... IS the END -- Rev 1:8 -- I AM   [present tense] the ALPHA and OMEGA... the beginning and the end...

Here is the ETERNAL equation, Chris:  

:nod: The BEGINNING is the END = <<YHVH>> = The END is the BEGINNING :nod:

<<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>>

...willieH    :HeartThrob:

Glory!  :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

QuoteI am quite convinced that the lake of fire is either:

1. our experiences in this life

Or:

2. a classroom after the resurrection where all will be revealed, and many will feel great shame.  Now this may take eons, but it will only take as long as necessary for each person to realize what they had done and to realize that they need God's love.  It will be far more purposeful than simply torturing a person in literal fire for a million years.

Peace out. 

Oh my!! I never heard it said this way before!! Yes, this makes sense! Even God detests people burning their babies (Jeremiah 32: 35) why would He use His benign fires to barbecue the ressurection bodies of his lost children??

I've always thought that the "fire and brimstone" carried a deeper, more spiritual meaning... Plus, in Revelation 22 the wicked aren't suffering at all, after they've been tossed into the LOF, they are now simply outside the city... Ready to be evangelized and ready to confess?  :thumbsup:

One question regarding the purification process or lake of fire, let's say hypothetically you at the day of your death have trangressed to live a life without sin, are you still punished for your past sins, or is the earthly purification that has taken place enough?

According to Paul, if you are in Christ, then a we shall all be changed in a twinklling of an eye, this corruption shall put on incorruption. The blood cleanses us from all sin, so theres no need to be into the lake of fire.

Hi Daniel.  I believe as God said through Paul, we're saved by grace through faith, and that not of  ourselves.

I currently believe there are at least 2 different judgments;  One having to do with whether one is "saved" as yet, the other having to do with works.

If not yet saved, conditions put in place where one will repent and kneel and confess Jesus as Lord.

If already saved, works judged, things "burned" out that are not of God - having to do with obedience, rewards, etc.   :2c:

Quote from: PaoloNuevo on November 12, 2010, 02:16:23 AM
Oh my!! I never heard it said this way before!!

Oh you!!
You may like THIS (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/discussions_universal_salvation/the_lake_fire_or_le_lac_de_feu_8145.msg95855.html#msg95855) thread.

"hell" is a mistranslation, misunderstanding which should simply read "the grave". God is life itself, of course, and also perfection (of course :Sparkletooth:) so when God chose to create thinking beings rather than robots or an ant farm a whole new world (or tree) of possibilities 'came to be' just as God of course knew would, but he (surely) chose to do all things perfectly in order to bring about the moSt perfect of all possibilities, which of course is not robots.. yet when thinking ability/ability to choose chooses anything other than what God chooses, they become imperfect, the opposite of life, which now is thought to be but another form of life.
- But nonchristians can quickly grab the concept of thinking abilility vs being robots, and Jesus saves us from "the grave" (death, nonlife) and imperfection its cause but christians have a hard time with it... "truth is simple but man has made many inventions" the preacher/ecclesiastes..

Marie Glen, makes one wonder about paganity....

---

Why was Hell spelled Hel in parts of the KJV-1611 Bible?

Did you know that the secular meaning behind the word 'hell,' just as the original meaning of 'hades' simply meant hidden, out of sight? Yep, in the ancient German, when two young folks went to a dark place to hide for some necking, they went to hel, they hid somewhere. Our English words helmut, hall, hole, and heel, all stem from the German word hele. The religious meaning of the word Hell came from Germany too -- actually it came from Teutonic mythology.

Hele was a goddess of the underworld in ancient folklore.

Hel is the name of the Norse underworld, and its ruler. Hel/Hela, in Norse mythology, was the hideous daughter of the Giant Loki, banished to the netherworld, Helheim (literally, 'house of Hel'), world of the dead, by the Chief God, Odin. The distinctive looking Goddess, whose skin is black on one side, rules over the dead until Ragnarok and the coming birth of the new world.

Hel is sister of Fenris, the wolf, and Jormungand, the world-serpent.

The name for the Christian world of torment "Hell" is derived from Hela's abode. Unlike the Christian version, however, Hel's realm was home to all who did not die in battle - miserable as it was, good behavior wasn't any more likely to get one a reprieve. Helheim's entrance works only in one direction- once one has entered, even a God, one cannot leave - like the Greek Hades, Helheim is guarded by a monstrous hound, and encircled by an impassable river. According to legend, the dead will remain in Hel's kingdom until the last days of Ragnarok.

---

Ragnarok is huge end time battle. Only a few survive. The old world dies and a new one world starts.
Sounds a bit familiar  :scratchhead: [/font][/size]

That was very interesting! I read some time ago that "hel" also meant to bury something, like let's hel the potatoes.. Do you think it's true most paganism has Babylonian roots, its different branches spreading out to all lands from the tower of babel?

Let's hel potatoes is still used by some very old farmers.
I've looked for a 1500-something dictionary to look up the word. Found nothing. (no dictionary)

Oxford Dictionary has first occurences and history of early usage.  It's mostly being published online now I think.  I just don't use it enough to justify even the low per month charge.  I'd get "Hearts of Space" first.  I may anyway...

What MG wrote is a fact I can verify first hand. The big question is: Did the farmers start using hell for potatoes because they heared a sermon? Or did church use the word because it simply was a very good translation for unseen and was widely in use by farmers. Not unlikely they got the world from Norse mytholgy.

 :cloud9: Like your new avatar  :thumbsup:

Yeah it reminds me of samurai warrior.

Take this whitewings
Ha YAHHHHH

:swordfight:


You fight well my young apprentice, but with my help you could be the best

Hahhaha I love that fencing smiley thinktank!

Quote from: Cardinal on December 01, 2010, 07:55:13 PM
:cloud9: Like your new avatar  :thumbsup:

Enjoy it while you can because you surely know I have to remove it tomorrow for almost a year.
You may choose what teh next one is gonna be. Hand or tree.

Quote from: thinktank on December 01, 2010, 10:15:52 PM
Yeah it reminds me of samurai warrior.

Take this whitewings
Ha YAHHHHH

:swordfight:


You fight well my young apprentice, but with my help you could be the best

Make me think of a movie. A man was attacked by someone that looked like a highly trained martial art expert. Very relaxed he pulled out his gun and gone was the guy with the samurai swords :winkgrin:

"I hear you think; did he fire five or six times? Do you feel lucky today, punk?"  :laughing7:

Quote from: WhiteWings on December 08, 2010, 08:46:04 AM

Quote from: thinktank on December 01, 2010, 10:15:52 PM
Yeah it reminds me of samurai warrior.

Take this whitewings
Ha YAHHHHH

:swordfight:


You fight well my young apprentice, but with my help you could be the best

Make me think of a movie. A man was attacked by someone that looked like a highly trained martial art expert. Very relaxed he pulled out his gun and gone was the guy with the samurai swords :winkgrin:

"I hear you think; did he fire five or six times? Do you feel lucky today, punk?"  :laughing7:

I'l shoot once and guess, is it Indiana Jones raiders of the lost ark?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anEuw8F8cpE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anEuw8F8cpE)

classic scene  :bigGrin:

Clint Eastwood as Dirty Harry http://www.iviewtube.com/v/37677/dirty-harry-clint-eastwood-(do-you-feel-lucky-punk)-

Quote from: thinktank on March 23, 2011, 11:09:08 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on December 08, 2010, 08:46:04 AM

Quote from: thinktank on December 01, 2010, 10:15:52 PM
Yeah it reminds me of samurai warrior.

Take this whitewings
Ha YAHHHHH

:swordfight:


You fight well my young apprentice, but with my help you could be the best

Make me think of a movie. A man was attacked by someone that looked like a highly trained martial art expert. Very relaxed he pulled out his gun and gone was the guy with the samurai swords :winkgrin:

"I hear you think; did he fire five or six times? Do you feel lucky today, punk?"  :laughing7:

I'l shoot once and guess, is it Indiana Jones raiders of the lost ark?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anEuw8F8cpE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anEuw8F8cpE)

classic scene  :bigGrin:

That's what I was thinking of too.  Yes that is a classic  :bigGrin: