the punishment of God

[CHB]

I started out thinking that eternal hell was right. Then I got into the World Wide Church of God and they believed in annhilation which made more sense but there was always something not quite right in this belief.

If annhilation is correct then Jesus would have to remain dead in order for any one to be released from it. In other words wouldn't Jesus have to pay this debt by staying dead in order for anyone to escape it? But the debt he paid ended in life so this is what we will inherit.  

CHB

He would not have to stay dead because he paid the penalty of death. If a penalty for treason was a beheading, then if the head should fall off, then the penalty has been paid. If the person somehow gets his friends to screw back the head on him and he lives, it doesn't change the fact that he was once beheaded. :2c:

Hi thinktank,

If the wages of sin is to stay dead for all eternity, then that debt has not been paid for anyone.

Wanted to add something else concerning annhilation. If the wicked are to be annhilated and remain dead, then death will not be destroyed as it says in (1 Cor. 15:26) "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death".  I think this would mean all types of death?

CHB

[thinktank]

I started out thinking that eternal hell was right. Then I got into the World Wide Church of God and they believed in annhilation which made more sense but there was always something not quite right in this belief.

If annhilation is correct then Jesus would have to remain dead in order for any one to be released from it. In other words wouldn't Jesus have to pay this debt by staying dead in order for anyone to escape it? But the debt he paid ended in life so this is what we will inherit.  

CHB

He would not have to stay dead because he paid the penalty of death. If a penalty for treason was a beheading, then if the head should fall off, then the penalty has been paid. If the person somehow gets his friends to screw back the head on him and he lives, it doesn't change the fact that he was once beheaded. :2c:

Hi thinktank,

If the wages of sin is to stay dead for all eternity, then that debt has not been paid for anyone.

Wanted to add something else concerning annhilation. If the wicked are to be annhilated and remain dead, then death will not be destroyed as it says in (1 Cor. 15:26) "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death".  I think this would mean all types of death?

CHB

The death that God paid for is spiritual death. God can raise anybody physically from the dead and even give spiritually dead people imortality, (Genesis, tree of life 3:22) Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead and many others, but until they accept Jesus as Lord and Christ they, remain spiritually dead, let the dead bury their dead. Since God will not tolerate death forever and therefore sin, all people must follow Jesus before this time is up. The deadline is after the millenium( Mth 19:28) finishes and the great white throne is set up. As believers we are being purged of our sins now, as God sends purifying fire. Now is come salvation and kingdom of our God, but for the others purging won't take place until the millenium.

The problem with UR s that there is no need for belief in Jesus, which he says is necessary for salvation.

[WhiteWings]

The problem with UR s that there is no need for belief in Jesus, which he says is necessary for salvation.

Wrong understanding....

What is Universalism?

There are universalistic beliefs that all religions lead to the same place. We do not believe that to be true. The "way, the truth and the life" are not in a system of beliefs, whether it includes the basic components of Christianity or not – the ultimate salvation of all mankind depends upon a person – that person is the very Son of God who came to redeem mankind from the curse.

More from the website owner.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: You know, I just saw some youtube videos this week, where the Lord appeared to some Muslims, two of them members of Hezbollah, in a prison, in a dream/vision. Both gave up Islam in a heartbeat.

They didn't "ask Jesus into their hearts", they didn't even believe anything about Him except what their religion says, and that is that He was a prophet.

There's nothing that says He can't and won't do that after death of the body, they just won't have as great a reward. Blessings...

[WhiteWings]

they just won't have as great a reward.

Is everybody (Except Father, Son, HS) equal when the Son hands over His kingdom to Father? Or are there people of different ranks just like on earth?

[thinktank]

To the rich man
sell all you have and your reward shall be great in heaven.

To disciples
Ya shall sit upon 12 thrones judging the tribes of Israel

John the baptist is greatest among born of women but the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he

[WhiteWings]

In the kingdom. But after that....?
Is there still a Kingdom if Jesus hands it over to Father?

1Co_15:22-28

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Of course there is.....His Kingdom is without end. Blessings...

[thinktank]

who knows what happens after then, we'll all just be having a jolly good time exploring Gods universe  :bgdance: :banana: :trampoline: :dbook: :violin:

[WhiteWings]

:cloud9: Of course there is.....His Kingdom is without end. Blessings...

I know there is something.
But a kingdom. Jesus is decribed a ruling His kingdom (with an iron rod).
Then He hands it over to Father.
Is it still a kingdom then or something else?
Note: I'm not saying God being all in all ends.

^KJV1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

It's just that "all in all"  feels different/more special than a kingdom and a king.

[WhiteWings]

who knows what happens after then, we'll all just be having a jolly good time exploring Gods universe

Finally travel in the 10th dimension and come back to type this message.
Mmm, maybe I'm back already  :dontknow:

[jabcat]

I "borrowed" this from someone's facebook post.  It was posted by a gentleman by the name of Eric Soto - "Just because judgment is not eternal does not mean its not a serious thing, and that God just winks at sin while passing out sugar and gumdrops to the wicked. It just means at the end of the day...love and forgiveness prevails."

....You have heard of the endurance of Job and have seen the outcome of the Lord's dealings, that the Lord is full of compassion and is merciful.   James 5:11

[CHB]

If annhilation is correct then Jesus would have to remain dead in order for any one to be released from it. In other words wouldn't Jesus have to pay this debt by staying dead in order for anyone to escape it? But the debt he paid ended in life so this is what we will inherit.  

CHB

He would not have to stay dead because he paid the penalty of death. If a penalty for treason was a beheading, then if the head should fall off, then the penalty has been paid. If the person somehow gets his friends to screw back the head on him and he lives, it doesn't change the fact that he was once beheaded. :2c:

Hi thinktank,

If the wages of sin is to stay dead for all eternity, then that debt has not been paid for anyone.

Wanted to add something else concerning annhilation. If the wicked are to be annhilated and remain dead, then death will not be destroyed as it says in (1 Cor. 15:26) "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death".  I think this would mean all types of death?

CHB

The death that God paid for is spiritual death. God can raise anybody physically from the dead and even give spiritually dead people imortality, (Genesis, tree of life 3:22) Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead and many others, but until they accept Jesus as Lord and Christ they, remain spiritually dead, let the dead bury their dead. Since God will not tolerate death forever and therefore sin, all people must follow Jesus before this time is up. The deadline is after the millenium( Mth 19:28) finishes and the great white throne is set up. As believers we are being purged of our sins now, as God sends purifying fire. Now is come salvation and kingdom of our God, but for the others purging won't take place until the millenium.

The problem with UR s that there is no need for belief in Jesus, which he says is necessary for salvation.

Thinktank,

Show me scripture that God only paid for spiritual death? You are right that we remain spiritually dead until we except Jesus as Lord and Saviour. That is why it says "every knee will bow and everey tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord".  We do not except Jesus because we somehow get this urge to do so on our own, we except Jesus because he chooses us and changes our hearts and minds.

The problem is not that we who believe in UR think there is no need for belief in Jesus. The problem is, those who don't believe in UR have a misunderstanding of what we believe. They think because we believe Christ chooses us and not the other way around that we don't think it is necessary to believe in Jesus. It is not up to us and our beliefs anyway, those who believe it is, are the ones who don't have a need to believe in Jesus, they have a belief in themselves.

CHB

[thinktank]

Thinktank,

Show me scripture that God only paid for spiritual death? You are right that we remain spiritually dead until we except Jesus as Lord and Saviour. That is why it says "every knee will bow and everey tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord".  We do not except Jesus because we somehow get this urge to do so on our own, we except Jesus because he chooses us and changes our hearts and minds.


I don't have a scripture as such, there might be one there, but here's my reasoning. Ok if the penalty of sin is physical death, then in theory if a person dies, then that person has paid the penalty. E.g when Lazarus died he paid the penalty of physical death, but God raised him from the dead and this was before the sacrifice. So Lazarus was raised from the dead before the cross and blood. Also in the book of hebrews it says that women had their sons raised from the dead, but they did not receive the promise. The promise being eternal life through Christ Jesus. So if God can raise people from the dead, but yet they end up dying anyway, then I assume that the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross paid for spiritual death, the kingdom of God comes without observation, my words are spirit. So maybe for the believer there is an spiritual life afterlife after physical death.

The problem is not that we who believe in UR think there is no need for belief in Jesus. The problem is, those who don't believe in UR have a misunderstanding of what we believe. They think because we believe Christ chooses us and not the other way around that we don't think it is necessary to believe in Jesus. It is not up to us and our beliefs anyway, those who believe it is, are the ones who don't have a need to believe in Jesus, they have a belief in themselves.

CHB

I agree with you that Jesus choose us, but I also believe that Jesus chooses all of us the whole world, not just an elect few. Now is come salvation and the kingdom of God. Also there is a scripture go into the highways and byways and bidd them to come to the marriage supper, go ye into all the world and preach the gospel. So for me everyone is called by God but only a few, such as the apostle Paul and Mary are chosen. Before we were saved God was knocking on our door and was waiting for us to respond, if you look back at your life sometimes you find God knocking in your life before even you were saved.

[CHB]

I agree with you that Jesus choose us, but I also believe that Jesus chooses all of us the whole world, not just an elect few.

I believe this also but I think not all are chosen to understand in this life. Just like Jesus told his disciples that they were given to understand but not the rest. Every man in his own order so to speak.

I also think that whatever Jesus did, like die a physical death, was for us because he didn't have to die for himself. If the wages of sin is death then didn't Jesus pay that debt also? Isn't our sins covered by Jesus' death? By his death and resurrection we are guaranteed life.

I believe Jesus was our example, whatever happened to him we will also experience. Like suffering, death, life.

CHB

[Beloved Servant]

If Jesus didn't lay down His life he would still be walking around today in those same sandals.

The alabaster jar had to be broken to immeasurable pieces and the oil spread out within all mankind so the we can also partake of His sinless nature.

One for All.

[Cardinal]

  :cloud9: :2thumbs:

[willieH]

If Jesus didn't lay down His life he would still be walking around today in those same sandals.

The alabaster jar had to be broken to immeasurable pieces and the oil spread out within all mankind so the we can also partake of His sinless nature.

One for All.

Marc is not the only one INSPIRED today, brother David... The Lord is shining brightly through your words and CHB's words as well...  :boogie:

...willieH  :happy3:

[Beloved Servant]

Oh Willie, but it still feels like the river is only waste-deep and we're waiting on the Lord for the depth of His Spirit deep enough to swim in.

Come Lord Come

[marcstalkspot]

Almost no one who has ever studied the near-death experience (NDE) comes away thinking that Hell is eternal.


--Dr. Ken Vincent





:2c: