I do think that there will be reconciliation at the end for everyone .. yet I also believe that we should not downplay the things about damnation. For example, one thing that comes to mind for me that the lake of fire might burn people off their identity. This will not hurt and the person in question just becomes completely new, which will actually mean a blessing for them. They will not regret it. But still there is something terrible about it ...
Think about an old couple in Heaven. One was an atheist, the other a christian. Both die and come to God. The christian will be saved, the other has to go through the lake of fire and become new. But in this process he/she will loose her memories of the marriage, of the love they may have had in this earthly life. This sounds like a very slight punishment when compared to eternal torment, but it will mean pain and grief. Yet it might be necessary in order to clean someone from sins and the past. Ultimately there will be peace and happiness, but that's like when one of the two in a couple get Alzheimers or something like that. It's possible with Christ to love such people and finally to have peace with this, but at first it will be terrible.
Anyway, this has come to be my idea about the lake of fire. Perhaps there is more to it, like two different afterlives, that the saved spent it somewhere else than the damned.
But I don't mean anymore there will be endless suffering. This is not our Jesus who knows suffering so well.
Hi,
I think LoF is bad. Jesus didn't warn us about nothing.
About your couple.
1. Are there couples in heaven? If you are a bride of Christ can you also be married with your earthly partner. Maybe you even remarried because your first partner died.
2. Everyone is a sinner. So everyone changes IMO. Even the saints are not 100% pure (imo)
3. I think we will not forget because imo earth wasa learing experience for us. So it's unlikely our memory of life lessons will be wiped out. That would for example mean Pilate doesn't remember Jesus. There was a short thread on remembering things in Heaven. My personal opinion is that a memory wipe causes huge problems if you look at it more closely.
Well maybe things will be simpler. We all speak about a loving and good God and if we go to Heaven we will all realize that and those who didn't get saved will regret it deeply that they had rejected God and then carry that regret for eternity. The smoke that rises for ever and ever may then actually be like incense, something spiritually pure and precious. Think of people who regret something bad and then spend much time trying to atone by good works. "He who is forgiven much, loves much"
Or maybe atheists will get a world that is like they always wanted, a world that seems completely natural and everything is done by chance etc. And then they have to live on that world and its completely like our world today and just doesnt change.
But I think given God's love the first alternative is much more like it.
Quoteand then carry that regret for eternity. The smoke that rises for ever and ever may then actually be like incense, something spiritually pure and precious. Think of people who regret something bad and then spend much time trying to atone by good works.
That doesn't sound like pure happiness to me.
It sounds like tears and sorrow.
KJVRev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Well I had this dream in which I suddenly stepped through a door and entered Heaven and was so certain that God exists and that I would see him soon. Then I saw a receptionist woman which smiled to me and nodded. But I also saw another girl on a bench and she was in tears and sorrow.
I thought this meant that now both of us were scheduled with going to God for the final judgment, and while I was confident the woman on the bench was not. But it was not the horror of hell but deep regret of having left God.
it's like a bit in this life ... I regret many things I've done but because of God's grace my sins lead to more love. And I don't cry and feel much sorrow about them. But it takes a while to reach that point. Eventually you are right and God will soothe all pain, but I do think it's possible that God lets people be sad for a while.
Quote from: anti_nietzsche on June 14, 2010, 10:24:40 PM
I do think that there will be reconciliation at the end for everyone .. yet I also believe that we should not downplay the things about damnation. For example, one thing that comes to mind for me that the lake of fire might burn people off their identity. This will not hurt and the person in question just becomes completely new, which will actually mean a blessing for them. They will not regret it. But still there is something terrible about it ...
Think about an old couple in Heaven. One was an atheist, the other a christian. Both die and come to God. The christian will be saved, the other has to go through the lake of fire and become new. But in this process he/she will loose her memories of the marriage, of the love they may have had in this earthly life. This sounds like a very slight punishment when compared to eternal torment, but it will mean pain and grief. Yet it might be necessary in order to clean someone from sins and the past. Ultimately there will be peace and happiness, but that's like when one of the two in a couple get Alzheimers or something like that. It's possible with Christ to love such people and finally to have peace with this, but at first it will be terrible.
Anyway, this has come to be my idea about the lake of fire. Perhaps there is more to it, like two different afterlives, that the saved spent it somewhere else than the damned.
But I don't mean anymore there will be endless suffering. This is not our Jesus who knows suffering so well.
Even if I was a UR guy I don't think I could buy into that view of the LoF. I mean it's possible that Christians must suffer through the painful purification process on earth and non believers get a non painful version in the LoF. It's possible you would lose your memories...just not sure where you are getting this opinion. Personally, I think the LoF is ED. But, if UR is the way...I would have to assume the process of purification to be less than pleasant. I would have to also assume there is a benefit in the afterlife for acceptance of Christ in this life.
Quote from: anti_nietzsche on June 14, 2010, 10:24:40 PM
I do think that there will be reconciliation at the end for everyone .. yet I also believe that we should not downplay the things about damnation. For example, one thing that comes to mind for me that the lake of fire might burn people off their identity. This will not hurt and the person in question just becomes completely new, which will actually mean a blessing for them. They will not regret it. But still there is something terrible about it ...
Think about an old couple in Heaven. One was an atheist, the other a christian. Both die and come to God. The christian will be saved, the other has to go through the lake of fire and become new. But in this process he/she will loose her memories of the marriage, of the love they may have had in this earthly life. This sounds like a very slight punishment when compared to eternal torment, but it will mean pain and grief. Yet it might be necessary in order to clean someone from sins and the past. Ultimately there will be peace and happiness, but that's like when one of the two in a couple get Alzheimers or something like that. It's possible with Christ to love such people and finally to have peace with this, but at first it will be terrible.
Anyway, this has come to be my idea about the lake of fire. Perhaps there is more to it, like two different afterlives, that the saved spent it somewhere else than the damned.
But I don't mean anymore there will be endless suffering. This is not our Jesus who knows suffering so well.
This is what Ur teaches, that's one reason I prefer annhilation, less painfull.
:cloud9: The pain of the LOF is as the pain of a woman/soul giving birth (to the Son). They missed it the first time around, they won't miss it afterwards. Same as pattern of brazen altar. ALL had to bring sacrifices, ie. the dying to self, the carnal beastly natures being put to death.
This is why we have as one of our foundations mentioned in Hebrews, ie. the laying on of hands. They had to lay hands on the sacrifices, symbolizing them doing the works (hands) of putting to death the flesh/carnal beastly natures, and the imputing of their sins onto the animal. Whatsoever sins ye remit, they are remitted, whatsoever sins ye retain, they are retained. Blessings...
So am I correct in saying in UR that a person who is going through the lake of fire experience are those who don't know Christ,will be purged of all their sins whether it takes 1 second or a 100 years and then after they have been purged, they then automatically accept Christ?
It just seems a large pill to swallow and in some ways makes their existense on earth rather pointless, for with universal reconciliation there is a purpose and that purpose is to choose between sin and God, as Christ said "choose this day who you will serve".
They missed it the first time around, they won't miss it afterwards. Same as pattern of brazen altar. ALL had to bring sacrifices, ie. the dying to self, the carnal beastly natures being put to death.
Also I am a little confused as to how the carnal desires will be purged from them with UR, when they do not have a flesh and blood body to experience the carnal desires.
:cloud9: My :2c: Because if you read back where I was discussing what He had given me pertaining to what happens to the soul at death, those carnal beastly natures they gave life to, didn't overcome, ect., are still with them, as He reproves us with our own wickedness.
The purpose of choosing this day whom we will serve, is to have a resurrection while still in the body, ie. corruption swallowed up of life. It's not just the physical body that needs this covering, the soul is feminine and He ordered women to have a covering.
Eve/type of soul, removed her covering thru sin, and as she is the mother of all living in the flesh, we have to receive of our Covering again. The purpose of the Holy Ghost coming as fire is to consume the soul/carnal beastly natures, and thereby making the garment (the soul houses the Spirit) clean, washed in the blood.
If all we needed was initial salvation experience, there would have been no need for the Holy Ghost to come. Notice in Acts 2 it said He SHED forth this. He took it off, AS A GARMENT, a covering. Same thing Elijah did with Elisha, basically.
The Holy Ghost is as a MANTLE, outer covering. This is as the outer covering of the ark of the Tabernacle, the outward anointing or covering of gold over the wood (speaks of carnal nature, a tree cut down).
WHATEVER part of us is not like God, is changed into that nature, in the LOF, for God is a consuming fire and whatever is not like Him is what is consumed. It's not destroyed as we think of it, but changed. We don't have to be in a physical body for this to take place. The soul is what makes us, us.
Let me give you a personal example. Before I came to the Lord, if you had looked into the dictionary under the word "stubborness", you would have found my picture. :BangHead: :eeew: :mblush:
Aware of this, I kept cursing that thing and commanding it to loose me, and be consumed by the fire of the living God. Finally one day, the Lord showed me that SUBMITTED TO HIM, that same stubborness was a thing of beauty in the Master's hand.
He had used it to keep me from laying down and dying and giving up, when the trials and hardships came from walking with Him. It had been consumed in the fire of the Holy Ghost (every knee shall bow = nothing STANDING in us), and it's nature was changed.
Adam was given dominion over all the carnal beastly natures, and he was to rule over them. He failed, Christ didn't and He gives us authority to rule over them by submission to His Spirit.
When "they" are no longer given "life" by us (no longer empowered by the soul/Eve, mother of all that have life outside of Him), they become as a footstool under His feet IN US. Does not any good footstool elevate the feet?
We are the "feet generation". The Head was birthed 2000 years ago, the feet are being raised up to reign thru rest in Him. No more warfare, swords beaten into plowshares, ie. going from warfare to planting seed. Blessed are the FEET that stand upon Mt. Zion.
And the cool thing about the "feet" is, that as a disciple in this hour, we get to wash the feet of those that are "dusty", ie. IN THE DUST. Blessings...
willieH: Hi T-tank... :happygrin:
Quote from: thinktank on July 14, 2010, 08:09:22 PM
Quote from: anti_nietzsche on June 14, 2010, 10:24:40 PM
I do think that there will be reconciliation at the end for everyone .. yet I also believe that we should not downplay the things about damnation. For example, one thing that comes to mind for me that the lake of fire might burn people off their identity. This will not hurt and the person in question just becomes completely new, which will actually mean a blessing for them. They will not regret it. But still there is something terrible about it ...
Think about an old couple in Heaven. One was an atheist, the other a christian. Both die and come to God. The christian will be saved, the other has to go through the lake of fire and become new. But in this process he/she will loose her memories of the marriage, of the love they may have had in this earthly life. This sounds like a very slight punishment when compared to eternal torment, but it will mean pain and grief. Yet it might be necessary in order to clean someone from sins and the past. Ultimately there will be peace and happiness, but that's like when one of the two in a couple get Alzheimers or something like that. It's possible with Christ to love such people and finally to have peace with this, but at first it will be terrible.
Anyway, this has come to be my idea about the lake of fire. Perhaps there is more to it, like two different afterlives, that the saved spent it somewhere else than the damned.
But I don't mean anymore there will be endless suffering. This is not our Jesus who knows suffering so well.
This is what Ur teaches, that's one reason I prefer annhilation, less painfull.
No... that is
NOT what "UR" teaches... That is what "some" which believe UR, teach... Just as with any other viewpoint... :dontknow:
That YOU believe in "ANNHILATION [murder], ...thereby means that YOU believe and TEACH just as do SDA believers? For ANNHILATION [murder] is what they believe. :dontknow: Do you follow the writings of E.G. White? Do you observe the Sabbath? Do you preach the "3 angels" message? Are you a trinitarian?
The point being... you have concluded in your observation that ANNHILTION is the ULTIMATE DESTINY of [some] men... this does not mean that you believe and teach the very same things that others "believe and teach" which also hold the belief of ANNHILATION. :mnah:
...willieH :cloud9:
willieH: Hi Rebecca... :hithere:
Just plain AWESOME words sis:
Quote from: Cardinal on July 15, 2010, 08:22:59 PM
:cloud9: My :2c: Because if you read back where I was discussing what He had given me pertaining to what happens to the soul at death, those carnal beastly natures they gave life to, didn't overcome, ect., are still with them, as He reproves us with our own wickedness.
The purpose of choosing this day whom we will serve, is to have a resurrection while still in the body, ie. corruption swallowed up of life. It's not just the physical body that needs this covering, the soul is feminine and He ordered women to have a covering.
Eve/type of soul, removed her covering thru sin, and as she is the mother of all living in the flesh, we have to receive of our Covering again. The purpose of the Holy Ghost coming as fire is to consume the soul/carnal beastly natures, and thereby making the garment (the soul houses the Spirit) clean, washed in the blood.
If all we needed was initial salvation experience, there would have been no need for the Holy Ghost to come. Notice in Acts 2 it said He SHED forth this. He took it off, AS A GARMENT, a covering. Same thing Elijah did with Elisha, basically.
The Holy Ghost is as a MANTLE, outer covering. This is as the outer covering of the ark of the Tabernacle, the outward anointing or covering of gold over the wood (speaks of carnal nature, a tree cut down).
WHATEVER part of us is not like God, is changed into that nature, in the LOF, for God is a consuming fire and whatever is not like Him is what is consumed. It's not destroyed as we think of it, but changed. We don't have to be in a physical body for this to take place. The soul is what makes us, us.
Let me give you a personal example. Before I came to the Lord, if you had looked into the dictionary under the word "stubborness", you would have found my picture. :BangHead: :eeew: :mblush:
Aware of this, I kept cursing that thing and commanding it to loose me, and be consumed by the fire of the living God. Finally one day, the Lord showed me that SUBMITTED TO HIM, that same stubborness was a thing of beauty in the Master's hand.
He had used it to keep me from laying down and dying and giving up, when the trials and hardships came from walking with Him. It had been consumed in the fire of the Holy Ghost (every knee shall bow = nothing STANDING in us), and it's nature was changed.
Adam was given dominion over all the carnal beastly natures, and he was to rule over them. He failed, Christ didn't and He gives us authority to rule over them by submission to His Spirit.
When "they" are no longer given "life" by us (no longer empowered by the soul/Eve, mother of all that have life outside of Him), they become as a footstool under His feet IN US. Does not any good footstool elevate the feet?
We are the "feet generation". The Head was birthed 2000 years ago, the feet are being raised up to reign thru rest in Him. No more warfare, swords beaten into plowshares, ie. going from warfare to planting seed. Blessed are the FEET that stand upon Mt. Zion.
And the cool thing about the "feet" is, that as a disciple in this hour, we get to wash the feet of those that are "dusty", ie. IN THE DUST. Blessings...
You are as wise and spiritual a person, as I have ever encountered in my life... :thumbsup: :friendstu:
...willieH :Sparkletooth:
:mblush: Aww....thanks Willie, but to God be the glory, and right back at 'cha..... :HeartThrob:
:hithere:
I started out thinking that eternal hell was right. Then I got into the World Wide Church of God and they believed in annhilation which made more sense but there was always something not quite right in this belief.
If annhilation is correct then Jesus would have to remain dead in order for any one to be released from it. In other words wouldn't Jesus have to pay this debt by staying dead in order for anyone to escape it? But the debt he paid ended in life so this is what we will inherit.
CHB
Quote from: CHB on July 15, 2010, 08:52:31 PM
I started out thinking that eternal hell was right. Then I got into the World Wide Church of God and they believed in annhilation which made more sense but there was always something not quite right in this belief.
If annhilation is correct then Jesus would have to remain dead in order for any one to be released from it. In other words wouldn't Jesus have to pay this debt by staying dead in order for anyone to escape it? But the debt he paid ended in life so this is what we will inherit.
CHB
He would not have to stay dead because he paid the penalty of death. If a penalty for treason was a beheading, then if the head should fall off, then the penalty has been paid. If the person somehow gets his friends to screw back the head on him and he lives, it doesn't change the fact that he was once beheaded. :2c:
willieH: Hi A_N... :cloud9:
Quote from: anti_nietzsche on June 14, 2010, 10:24:40 PM
I do think that there will be reconciliation at the end for everyone .. yet I also believe that we should not downplay the things about damnation. For example, one thing that comes to mind for me that the lake of fire might burn people off their identity. This will not hurt and the person in question just becomes completely new, which will actually mean a blessing for them. They will not regret it. But still there is something terrible about it ...
Personally, I do not find that in the Creating hand of the Potter, there is anything "terrible" at all... there is however, in the processing of precious stones, and metals, a necessary shedding of the outer waste materials, which must be removed to expose the INNER beauty and VALUE
within.
Quote from: anti_nietzsche on June 14, 2010, 10:24:40 PMThink about an old couple in Heaven. One was an atheist, the other a christian. Both die and come to God. The christian will be saved, the other has to go through the lake of fire and become new. But in this process he/she will loose her memories of the marriage, of the love they may have had in this earthly life.
Now why in the world would LOVE -- which IS GOD --
1 John 4:8 -- destroy the memory of ITSELF in others? That is UNREASONABLE... LOVE is about preserving LOVE... not destroying it.
What I can see would be "destroyed" within the processing of LOVE, is that which was OUTSIDE the LOVE within any given relationship... leaving only
LOVE to remain FOR EVER... :nod: :boogie:
Quote from: anti_nietzsche on June 14, 2010, 10:24:40 PMThis sounds like a very slight punishment when compared to eternal torment, but it will mean pain and grief.
What "GOOD NEWS" is found in this, a_n? If we are determining our message as GOOD NEWS, ...what part has "pain and grief" within it?
If I am running up to you, and telling you that "I have GOOD NEWS for you!!! GOD INFINITELY LOVES you!..." :boogie: ...and then as your ears perk up to recieve this with Joy, comes the
BIG...
"BUT ---> You will have to go through FIERCE TORTURE in FIRE, to recieve this LOVE in your experience..."
Will this just cause you to jump up & down with JOY? Or honestly... would you see TWO CONTRASTING and CONTRADICTORY, elements in my message?
If GOD so "INFINITELY LOVES" me... then, as I am amidst an experience IN THIS LIFE, in which I am dealing with, ...diseases, surgeries, loss of (eventually ALL) loved ones, health in general, financial dispairs, anxieties, pain of many varieties, tears, sufferings in myriads of the moments in which I live, ...then send YOU to tell me, that there is MORE of the SAME to come for me, even WORSE! :mshock:
:omg: ...This is hardly "GOOD NEWS", bro... no matter how one might religiously attempt to "paint it" so it sounds AUTHENTIC, as the message which is conveyed in the
WORD unto us... and that which He sends us to TELL the WORLD that He so LOVES...
If you will, read these verses --
Mark 4:36-40As the
STORM grew in ferocity, it caused the Apostles to
FEAR for their lives, as
CHRIST calmly slept...
Then, the Apostles proceeded to "JUMP on His case" for the
PEACE He was amidst (sleeping without a care), while THEY were in the middle of the onset of their DEATHS! ...
BUT... what happened, a_n?
CHRIST awoke... (still peaceful)... and SPOKE
PEACE unto the
STORM... and the
STORM --- IMMEDIATELY ceased its turmoil! -- Then He reprimanded them for LACK OF
FAITH!
The
STORM didnt "rear up" and become worse... instead, HIS
WORD spoke
PEACE unto it... and His
PEACE SWALLOWED the
TURMOIL [the storm]... :dontknow:
JESUS never once commanded His Apostles to go forth and WARN others of "PAIN & GRIEF" to come!
We are to be sharing "GOOD NEWS" with one another IN the CAMP, and then unto others afterwards, ...
The "GOOD NEWS" must needs be IN the CAMP, ...as those already IN the CAMP, shall later venture to communicate this "GOOD NEWS" to those OUTSIDE the CAMP...
(1) Shall we go out into the
WORLD now... and tell them of more PAIN & GRIEF to come for them [i.e. FIRE oriented TORMENT -- LOF, HELL, ANNHILATION, PURGATORY]? Or,
(2) Shall we tell the
WORLD of the GREAT LOVE of
CHRIST which has made a way back to PEACE from this wretched experience of PAIN & GRIEF, in which we all find ourselves presently amidst?
Which of these 2, sounds more like... "GOOD NEWS" to you? :dunno:
How can MORE of the "
STORM" and its
TURMOIL, actually be truthfully substituted for PEACE? :mshock:
I say (no offense to anyone) ...this nothing but a SELFISH, forked tongue, 2 faced presentation... which begins with SELF as PEACEFULLY exempt from it... and then in the assumed "safety" of its inherent SELF CENTEREDNESS ...has no problem willingly proposing more of the
STORM to others... :sigh:
Quote from: anti_nietzsche on June 14, 2010, 10:24:40 PMYet it might be necessary in order to clean someone from sins and the past. Ultimately there will be peace and happiness, but that's like when one of the two in a couple get Alzheimers or something like that. It's possible with Christ to love such people and finally to have peace with this, but at first it will be terrible.
So sorry that you are dwelling in such a place as this, at present bro... "at first" ...was it "terrible" for you? :dontknow:
And if not... and GOD is PERFECTLY IMPARTIAL to men
---> Acts 10:34 -- 2 Sam 14:14 -- Mark 12:14 -- Eph 6:9 -- Gal 2:6 -- Prov 28:21 -- Job 34:19 -- Col 3:25 -- Rom 2:11 -- 2 Chron 19:7 -- why would it NOT be "terrible" for
YOU, ...but "terrible" for others? :dunno:
Quote from: anti_nietzsche on June 14, 2010, 10:24:40 PMAnyway, this has come to be my idea about the lake of fire. Perhaps there is more to it, like two different afterlives, that the saved spent it somewhere else than the damned.
But I don't mean anymore there will be endless suffering. This is not our Jesus who knows suffering so well.
You are welcome to what you believe, but it does not sound anything like something named the --
Eph 6:15 -- Rom 10:15 -- "GOSPEL of PEACE" -- to me... :sigh:
...willieH :cloud9:
Quote from: thinktank on July 15, 2010, 07:17:30 PM
So am I correct in saying in UR that a person who is going through the lake of fire experience are those who don't know Christ,will be purged of all their sins whether it takes 1 second or a 100 years and then after they have been purged, they then automatically accept Christ?
You are not yet 100 years old and you accepted Jesus...
For Saul/Paul it took a few minutes (I think).
Note: Jews believe in UR too. And "hell" lasts 0-12 months according to their scholars.
Quote from: shawn on July 14, 2010, 09:13:59 AMEven if I was a UR guy
So you are "Shawn of the dead"? :laughing7: (Horror comedy)
QuoteIt's possible you would lose your memories
Personally I would think not. Will some people for example forget who Jesus was/is? It gives all kind of problems imo.
QuoteI don't think I could buy into that view of the LoF. I mean it's possible that Christians must suffer through the painful purification process on earth and non believers get a non painful version in the LoF
....
I would have to assume the process of purification to be less than pleasant.
Where does it say ED is instant an painless?
5 miljon years of ET type torture and then die is also ED....
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 15, 2010, 10:26:03 PM
Quote from: shawn on July 14, 2010, 09:13:59 AMEven if I was a UR guy
So you are "Shawn of the dead"? :laughing7: (Horror comedy)
QuoteIt's possible you would lose your memories
Personally I would think not. Will some people for example forget who Jesus was/is? It gives all kind of problems imo.
QuoteI don't think I could buy into that view of the LoF. I mean it's possible that Christians must suffer through the painful purification process on earth and non believers get a non painful version in the LoF
....
I would have to assume the process of purification to be less than pleasant.
Where does it say ED is instant an painless?
5 miljon years of ET type torture and then die is also ED....
As an EDist, lol, not a sadist, the process of destruction is based on the patterns of what already happened in scripture. Lot for example and his wife, destroyed in milli seconds, since God who is love has already used destructive methods, I don't see it as a massive stretch to see that he might destroy the souls of them who refuse repentance.
:cloud9: But the problem with that idea IMO, is that God is against divorce, and the soul being permanently destroyed, would be a divorce of the soul/woman from the man/spirit.
There's a whole lot more there to the story of Lot, than meets the eye.....He had me in there yesterday......
Quote from: thinktank on July 15, 2010, 09:05:17 PM
If the person somehow gets his friends to screw back the head on him and he lives, it doesn't change the fact that he was once beheaded. :2c
Sorry T-tank... but this is just hilarious... :laugh:
Friendly "head" reattachment via "screwing"? :laughing7:
Is the head, as it is rolling around on the ground, imploring his friends to "screw it back on"? :LH:
:faint: --->
+ :director: --->
+ :grouppray: = :heat:
...willieH :laughhand:
Quote from: willieH on July 15, 2010, 08:39:56 PM
willieH: Hi T-tank... :happygrin:
Quote from: thinktank on July 14, 2010, 08:09:22 PM
Quote from: anti_nietzsche on June 14, 2010, 10:24:40 PM
I do think that there will be reconciliation at the end for everyone .. yet I also believe that we should not downplay the things about damnation. For example, one thing that comes to mind for me that the lake of fire might burn people off their identity. This will not hurt and the person in question just becomes completely new, which will actually mean a blessing for them. They will not regret it. But still there is something terrible about it ...
Think about an old couple in Heaven. One was an atheist, the other a christian. Both die and come to God. The christian will be saved, the other has to go through the lake of fire and become new. But in this process he/she will loose her memories of the marriage, of the love they may have had in this earthly life. This sounds like a very slight punishment when compared to eternal torment, but it will mean pain and grief. Yet it might be necessary in order to clean someone from sins and the past. Ultimately there will be peace and happiness, but that's like when one of the two in a couple get Alzheimers or something like that. It's possible with Christ to love such people and finally to have peace with this, but at first it will be terrible.
Anyway, this has come to be my idea about the lake of fire. Perhaps there is more to it, like two different afterlives, that the saved spent it somewhere else than the damned.
But I don't mean anymore there will be endless suffering. This is not our Jesus who knows suffering so well.
This is what Ur teaches, that's one reason I prefer annhilation, less painfull.
No... that is NOT what "UR" teaches... That is what "some" which believe UR, teach... Just as with any other viewpoint... :dontknow:
That YOU believe in "ANNHILATION [murder], ...thereby means that YOU believe and TEACH just as do SDA believers? For ANNHILATION [murder] is what they believe. :dontknow: Do you follow the writings of E.G. White? Do you observe the Sabbath? Do you preach the "3 angels" message? Are you a trinitarian?
I would not call annhilation murder, just that God says the wages of sin is death, those who refuse Jesus cannot have life because God will not allow darkness to exist forever, for death itself must be destroyed and the devil. The question is who will refuse Jesus? Maybe nobody, for me only time will tell.
Out of all the churches I have great respect for the 7th day adventist for they are ahead of their time concerning ET and the sabbath, but unlike them who belive we must accept Christ now or perish, the universal reconciliation position is that in future all will be raised from the dead Acts 24 the just and the unjust. The resurection of the saints happens in difficult times, but the resurection of the unsaved, awaits for another day, another age, the millenium age.
The point being... you have concluded in your observation that ANNHILTION is the ULTIMATE DESTINY of [some] men... this does not mean that you believe and teach the very same things that others "believe and teach" which also hold the belief of ANNHILATION. :mnah:
I would not say it is their destiny as such, even though Peters writing do suggest that some men are destined for eternal darkness forever as natural brute beasts made to be taken and destroyed, but my belief is that there is danger of destruction, the lake of fire scripture could be so with my belief that nobody will be thrown into the fire, for it does not say that any will be, only that the judgment is there. Only the devil and the beast and false prophet are said to be thrown into the fire, the rest of humanity apart from the false prophet and beast, is up to them, if they want to be saved. As a universal reconciliationist, I believe God will give plenty of time for all men to choose his ways, during the 1000 millenium peace, when the devil can no longer deceive men and the world is a lovely peacefull place, where God rules through his saints. Many will want to sit down with Abraham, Issac and Jacob, but will be shut out, there will be darkness, plenty of time to repent. Abraham, issac and Jacob, still in their graves, so this age Jesus speaks of must be a future messianic teaching age, where the knowledge of Jesus Christ and his ways are spread throughout the world.
...willieH :cloud9:
Quote from: thinktank on July 15, 2010, 11:05:10 PM
As an EDist, lol, not a sadist, the process of destruction is based on the patterns of what already happened in scripture. Lot for example and his wife, destroyed in milli seconds, since God who is love has already used destructive methods, I don't see it as a massive stretch to see that he might destroy the souls of them who refuse repentance.
You embrace OT demands of LAW, ...and then note them to continue in the NT of GRACE... :mnah:
sorry... I not buy it... :thumbdown:
Repentence is not something that MEN do of their own decision... they are either LED to repent by GOD, or they are not --
Rom 2:4 -- and in DUE TIME --
2 Tim 2:6 -- it is the
INTENT of GOD that
ALL shall come to
REPENT --
2 Pet 3:9 -- bowing at the knee, confessing [unto salvation] --
Rom 10:13 -- with the tongue that
JESUS CHRIST is Lord --
Phil 2:10-11...willieH :boogie: :boogie: :boogie:
willieH: Hi T-tank... :hithere:
Quote from: anti_nietzsche on June 14, 2010, 10:24:40 PM
Anyway, this has come to be my idea about the lake of fire. Perhaps there is more to it, like two different afterlives, that the saved spent it somewhere else than the damned.
But I don't mean anymore there will be endless suffering. This is not our Jesus who knows suffering so well.
Quote from: thinktank on July 15, 2010, 11:29:51 PMThis is what Ur teaches, that's one reason I prefer annhilation, less painfull.
Quote from: willieHNo... that is NOT what "UR" teaches... That is what "some" which believe UR, teach... Just as with any other viewpoint... :dontknow:
That YOU believe in "ANNHILATION [murder], ...thereby means that YOU believe and TEACH just as do SDA believers? For ANNHILATION [murder] is what they believe. :dontknow: Do you follow the writings of E.G. White? Do you observe the Sabbath? Do you preach the "3 angels" message? Are you a trinitarian?
Quote from: thinktank on July 15, 2010, 11:29:51 PMI would not call annhilation murder, just that God says the wages of sin is death, those who refuse Jesus cannot have life because God will not allow darkness to exist forever, for death itself must be destroyed and the devil. The question is who will refuse Jesus? Maybe nobody, for me only time will tell.
Then in stating this ["I would not call annhilation murder"], then ANNHILATION of the JEWS, which "Hitler" did was not ...
murder? :mshock:
What difference is there between GOD burning men or men burning men? In either case...
MURDER (removal of life via a premeditated PURPOSED ACT) takes place, irregardless of "justifications" that might or might not be falsely applied to the ACT.
Quote from: thinktank on July 15, 2010, 11:29:51 PMOut of all the churches I have great respect for the 7th day adventist for they are ahead of their time concerning ET and the sabbath, but unlike them who belive we must accept Christ now or perish, the universal reconciliation position is that in future all will be raised from the dead Acts 24 the just and the unjust. The resurection of the saints happens in difficult times, but the resurection of the unsaved, awaits for another day, another age, the millenium age.
FIRST --- I was member of the SDA organization for 5 years... and though I agree with the HOLINESS of the Sabbath... the Sabbath is made FOR MAN... no matter how one might or might not observe it... The SDA church is the
most loving I have ever encountered and I have encountered many different church organizations in my life.
SECOND --- There is no such thing as the "millenium" age. This is UNBIBLICAL and LINEAR terminology made of SYMBOLIC text...
Quote from: willieHThe point being... you have concluded in your observation that ANNHILATION is the ULTIMATE DESTINY of [some] men... this does not mean that you believe and teach the very same things that others "believe and teach" which also hold the belief of ANNHILATION. :mnah:
Quote from: thinktank on July 15, 2010, 11:29:51 PMI would not say it is their destiny as such, even though Peters writing do suggest that some men are destined for eternal darkness forever as natural brute beasts made to be taken and destroyed, but my belief is that there is danger of destruction, the lake of fire scripture could be so with my belief that nobody will be thrown into the fire, for it does not say that any will be, only that the judgment is there.
CHRIST said --
John 12:31 --
NOW is the
JUDGMENT of
THIS WORLD -- not a week from tuesday, or next leap year, or at the end of time, ...
NOW.
Just as
NOW is the
DAY of Salvation... not just the "
DAY" that Paul wrote
2 Corinthians, or the day after... but in ALL DAYS [of time] that are found IN the [eternal]
DAY of
YHVH --
Gen 2:4 -- in the which
ALL generations appear...
NOW!
There is no conjecture made here... it is a plain, straight forward statement which is either BELIEVED or DISBELIEVED... you choose to disbelieve it.
Again, you out of convenience, make literal observation of SYMBOLIC language. The notation and NOTIFICATION, of the
LOF is only found in the book of Revelation, which you depict as noting the future... which in turn,means, that in the 4K years preceeding the writing of this book, that no applications of IT can be made to those living before it. This is an inaccurate observation... for the
WORD is the same YESTERDAY, today, and FOR EVER.
EVERY WORD of the
WORD is applicable to EVERY MAN... regardless of the time period in which he/she lived in this realm.
GOD is no RESPECTER of PERSONS... so any applications of IT must be APPLIED to ALL or NONE.
The book of Revelation is the SPIRITUAL UNVEILING/REVEALING of the
WORD of GOD...
JESUS CHRIST... which could not take place in the realm of TIME until He was manifest within it... The Divine order is that the NATURAL come first, then the SPIRITUAL... The NATURAL JUSTICE of the
WORD of God with man [LAW], then the SPIRITUAL [GRACE] --
1 Cor 15:46That does not mean that He which is the BEGINNING AND the END of all things, does not apply to ALL... at ALL times...
The book of REVELATION is NOT a prophetic writing of the END of time... rather is a writing concerning TIMES entirety and the application to men, of the
WORD of GOD to ALL points and moments of TIME...
Quote from: thinktank on July 15, 2010, 11:29:51 PMOnly the devil and the beast and false prophet are said to be thrown into the fire, the rest of humanity apart from the false prophet and beast, is up to them, if they want to be saved. As a universal reconciliationist, I believe God will give plenty of time for all men to choose his ways, during the 1000 millenium peace, when the devil can no longer deceive men and the world is a lovely peacefull place, where God rules through his saints.
You might more benefit by spending less time in the "Left behind" books and movies, and more in the Scriptures... Especially concentrating upon BIBLICAL terminology, and not that which MEN ...ADD... to it such as the term "millennium"...
HADES and DEATH were cast into the Lake of FIRE to be destroyed... THIS took place 2k years ago, at CALVARY... for in RESURRECTION, ...
CHRIST and LIFE were victorious over the GRAVE [hades] and DEATH which assaulted His life and our own... destroying it... and its manifestations which come in due time.
CHRIST's "gold" [His life] was
TRIED in
FIRE --
Rev 3:18 -- What "FIRE" do you think this was, T-tank?
ALL men shall be salted [seasoned] with FIRE --
Mark 9:49 -- not just "unbelievers" (you might observe as such and amongst which you were at one time, numbered)...
ALL are concluded
UNBELIEVERS --
Rom 11:32 -- which is the rite of passage in the Lake of FIRE --
Rev 21:8Quote from: thinktank on July 15, 2010, 11:29:51 PMMany will want to sit down with Abraham, Issac and Jacob, but will be shut out, there will be darkness, plenty of time to repent. Abraham, issac and Jacob, still in their graves, so this age Jesus speaks of must be a future messianic teaching age, where the knowledge of Jesus Christ and his ways are spread throughout the world.
I don't know where you been bro... but the message of
JESUS CHRIST and "his ways" has been actively going throughout the
WORLD for 2K years...
...willieH :cloud9:
Quote from: thinktank on July 15, 2010, 09:05:17 PM
Quote from: CHB on July 15, 2010, 08:52:31 PM
I started out thinking that eternal hell was right. Then I got into the World Wide Church of God and they believed in annhilation which made more sense but there was always something not quite right in this belief.
If annhilation is correct then Jesus would have to remain dead in order for any one to be released from it. In other words wouldn't Jesus have to pay this debt by staying dead in order for anyone to escape it? But the debt he paid ended in life so this is what we will inherit.
CHB
He would not have to stay dead because he paid the penalty of death. If a penalty for treason was a beheading, then if the head should fall off, then the penalty has been paid. If the person somehow gets his friends to screw back the head on him and he lives, it doesn't change the fact that he was once beheaded. :2c:
Hi thinktank,
If the wages of sin is to stay dead for all eternity, then that debt has not been paid for anyone.
Wanted to add something else concerning annhilation. If the wicked are to be annhilated and remain dead, then death will not be destroyed as it says in (1 Cor. 15:26) "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death". I think this would mean all types of death?
CHB
Quote from: CHB on July 16, 2010, 01:18:37 AM
Quote from: thinktank on July 15, 2010, 09:05:17 PM
Quote from: CHB on July 15, 2010, 08:52:31 PM
I started out thinking that eternal hell was right. Then I got into the World Wide Church of God and they believed in annhilation which made more sense but there was always something not quite right in this belief.
If annhilation is correct then Jesus would have to remain dead in order for any one to be released from it. In other words wouldn't Jesus have to pay this debt by staying dead in order for anyone to escape it? But the debt he paid ended in life so this is what we will inherit.
CHB
He would not have to stay dead because he paid the penalty of death. If a penalty for treason was a beheading, then if the head should fall off, then the penalty has been paid. If the person somehow gets his friends to screw back the head on him and he lives, it doesn't change the fact that he was once beheaded. :2c:
Hi thinktank,
If the wages of sin is to stay dead for all eternity, then that debt has not been paid for anyone.
Wanted to add something else concerning annhilation. If the wicked are to be annhilated and remain dead, then death will not be destroyed as it says in (1 Cor. 15:26) "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death". I think this would mean all types of death?
CHB
The death that God paid for is spiritual death. God can raise anybody physically from the dead and even give spiritually dead people imortality, (Genesis, tree of life 3:22) Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead and many others, but until they accept Jesus as Lord and Christ they, remain spiritually dead, let the dead bury their dead. Since God will not tolerate death forever and therefore sin, all people must follow Jesus before this time is up. The deadline is after the millenium( Mth 19:28) finishes and the great white throne is set up. As believers we are being purged of our sins now, as God sends purifying fire. Now is come salvation and kingdom of our God, but for the others purging won't take place until the millenium.
The problem with UR s that there is no need for belief in Jesus, which he says is necessary for salvation.
Quote from: thinktank on July 16, 2010, 09:54:23 PMThe problem with UR s that there is no need for belief in Jesus, which he says is necessary for salvation.
Wrong understanding....
QuoteWhat is Universalism?
There are universalistic beliefs that all religions lead to the same place. We do not believe that to be true. The "way, the truth and the life" are not in a system of beliefs, whether it includes the basic components of Christianity or not – the ultimate salvation of all mankind depends upon a person – that person is the very Son of God who came to redeem mankind from the curse.
More from the website owner. (http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/universalism-refuted.htm)
:cloud9: You know, I just saw some youtube videos this week, where the Lord appeared to some Muslims, two of them members of Hezbollah, in a prison, in a dream/vision. Both gave up Islam in a heartbeat.
They didn't "ask Jesus into their hearts", they didn't even believe anything about Him except what their religion says, and that is that He was a prophet.
There's nothing that says He can't and won't do that after death of the body, they just won't have as great a reward. Blessings...
Quote from: Cardinal on July 16, 2010, 10:37:31 PMthey just won't have as great a reward.
Is everybody (Except Father, Son, HS) equal when the Son hands over His kingdom to Father? Or are there people of different ranks just like on earth?
To the rich man
sell all you have and your reward shall be great in heaven.
To disciples
Ya shall sit upon 12 thrones judging the tribes of Israel
John the baptist is greatest among born of women but the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he
In the kingdom. But after that....?
Is there still a Kingdom if Jesus hands it over to Father?
1Co_15:22-28
:cloud9: Of course there is.....His Kingdom is without end. Blessings...
who knows what happens after then, we'll all just be having a jolly good time exploring Gods universe :bgdance: :banana: :trampoline: :dbook: :violin:
Quote from: Cardinal on July 16, 2010, 11:41:04 PM
:cloud9: Of course there is.....His Kingdom is without end. Blessings...
I know there is something.
But a kingdom. Jesus is decribed a ruling His kingdom (with an iron rod).
Then He hands it over to Father.
Is it still a kingdom then or something else?
Note: I'm not saying God being all in all ends.
KJV1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
It's just that "all in all" feels different/more special than a kingdom and a king.
Quote from: thinktank on July 16, 2010, 11:43:17 PM
who knows what happens after then, we'll all just be having a jolly good time exploring Gods universe
Finally travel in the 10th dimension and come back to type this message.
Mmm, maybe I'm back already :dontknow:
I "borrowed" this from someone's facebook post. It was posted by a gentleman by the name of Eric Soto - "Just because judgment is not eternal does not mean its not a serious thing, and that God just winks at sin while passing out sugar and gumdrops to the wicked. It just means at the end of the day...love and forgiveness prevails."
....You have heard of the endurance of Job and have seen the outcome of the Lord's dealings, that the Lord is full of compassion and is merciful. James 5:11
Quote from: thinktank on July 16, 2010, 09:54:23 PM
Quote from: CHB on July 16, 2010, 01:18:37 AM
Quote from: thinktank on July 15, 2010, 09:05:17 PM
Quote from: CHB on July 15, 2010, 08:52:31 PM
If annhilation is correct then Jesus would have to remain dead in order for any one to be released from it. In other words wouldn't Jesus have to pay this debt by staying dead in order for anyone to escape it? But the debt he paid ended in life so this is what we will inherit.
CHB
He would not have to stay dead because he paid the penalty of death. If a penalty for treason was a beheading, then if the head should fall off, then the penalty has been paid. If the person somehow gets his friends to screw back the head on him and he lives, it doesn't change the fact that he was once beheaded. :2c:
Hi thinktank,
If the wages of sin is to stay dead for all eternity, then that debt has not been paid for anyone.
Wanted to add something else concerning annhilation. If the wicked are to be annhilated and remain dead, then death will not be destroyed as it says in (1 Cor. 15:26) "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death". I think this would mean all types of death?
CHB
The death that God paid for is spiritual death. God can raise anybody physically from the dead and even give spiritually dead people imortality, (Genesis, tree of life 3:22) Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead and many others, but until they accept Jesus as Lord and Christ they, remain spiritually dead, let the dead bury their dead. Since God will not tolerate death forever and therefore sin, all people must follow Jesus before this time is up. The deadline is after the millenium( Mth 19:28) finishes and the great white throne is set up. As believers we are being purged of our sins now, as God sends purifying fire. Now is come salvation and kingdom of our God, but for the others purging won't take place until the millenium.
The problem with UR s that there is no need for belief in Jesus, which he says is necessary for salvation.
Thinktank,
Show me scripture that God only paid for spiritual death? You are right that we remain spiritually dead until we except Jesus as Lord and Saviour. That is why it says "every knee will bow and everey tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord". We do not except Jesus because we somehow get this urge to do so on our own, we except Jesus because he chooses us and changes our hearts and minds.
The problem is not that we who believe in UR think there is no need for belief in Jesus. The problem is, those who don't believe in UR have a misunderstanding of what we believe. They think because we believe Christ chooses us and not the other way around that we don't think it is necessary to believe in Jesus. It is not up to us and our beliefs anyway, those who believe it is, are the ones who don't have a need to believe in Jesus, they have a belief in themselves.
CHB
Quote from: CHB on July 17, 2010, 06:17:26 PM
Thinktank,
Show me scripture that God only paid for spiritual death? You are right that we remain spiritually dead until we except Jesus as Lord and Saviour. That is why it says "every knee will bow and everey tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord". We do not except Jesus because we somehow get this urge to do so on our own, we except Jesus because he chooses us and changes our hearts and minds.
I don't have a scripture as such, there might be one there, but here's my reasoning. Ok if the penalty of sin is physical death, then in theory if a person dies, then that person has paid the penalty. E.g when Lazarus died he paid the penalty of physical death, but God raised him from the dead and this was before the sacrifice. So Lazarus was raised from the dead before the cross and blood. Also in the book of hebrews it says that women had their sons raised from the dead, but they did not receive the promise. The promise being eternal life through Christ Jesus. So if God can raise people from the dead, but yet they end up dying anyway, then I assume that the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross paid for spiritual death, the kingdom of God comes without observation, my words are spirit. So maybe for the believer there is an spiritual life afterlife after physical death.
The problem is not that we who believe in UR think there is no need for belief in Jesus. The problem is, those who don't believe in UR have a misunderstanding of what we believe. They think because we believe Christ chooses us and not the other way around that we don't think it is necessary to believe in Jesus. It is not up to us and our beliefs anyway, those who believe it is, are the ones who don't have a need to believe in Jesus, they have a belief in themselves.
CHB
I agree with you that Jesus choose us, but I also believe that Jesus chooses all of us the whole world, not just an elect few. Now is come salvation and the kingdom of God. Also there is a scripture go into the highways and byways and bidd them to come to the marriage supper, go ye into all the world and preach the gospel. So for me everyone is called by God but only a few, such as the apostle Paul and Mary are chosen. Before we were saved God was knocking on our door and was waiting for us to respond, if you look back at your life sometimes you find God knocking in your life before even you were saved.
Quote from: thinktank
I agree with you that Jesus choose us, but I also believe that Jesus chooses all of us the whole world, not just an elect few.
I believe this also but I think not all are chosen to understand in this life. Just like Jesus told his disciples that they were given to understand but not the rest. Every man in his own order so to speak.
I also think that whatever Jesus did, like die a physical death, was for us because he didn't have to die for himself. If the wages of sin is death then didn't Jesus pay that debt also? Isn't our sins covered by Jesus' death? By his death and resurrection we are guaranteed life.
I believe Jesus was our example, whatever happened to him we will also experience. Like suffering, death, life.
CHB
If Jesus didn't lay down His life he would still be walking around today in those same sandals.
The alabaster jar had to be broken to immeasurable pieces and the oil spread out within all mankind so the we can also partake of His sinless nature.
One for All.
:cloud9: :2thumbs:
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 17, 2010, 10:17:23 PM
If Jesus didn't lay down His life he would still be walking around today in those same sandals.
The alabaster jar had to be broken to immeasurable pieces and the oil spread out within all mankind so the we can also partake of His sinless nature.
One for All.
Marc is not the only one INSPIRED today, brother David... The Lord is shining brightly through your words and CHB's words as well... :boogie:
...willieH :happy3:
Oh Willie, but it still feels like the river is only waste-deep and we're waiting on the Lord for the depth of His Spirit deep enough to swim in.
Come Lord Come
Almost no one who has ever studied the near-death experience (NDE) comes away thinking that Hell is eternal.
--Dr. Ken Vincent
:2c: