the punishment of God

[anti_nietzsche]

I do think that there will be reconciliation at the end for everyone .. yet I also believe that we should not downplay the things about damnation. For example, one thing that comes to mind for me that the lake of fire might burn people off their identity. This will not hurt and the person in question just becomes completely new, which will actually mean a blessing for them. They will not regret it. But still there is something terrible about it ...

Think about an old couple in Heaven. One was an atheist, the other a christian. Both die and come to God. The christian will be saved, the other has to go through the lake of fire and become new. But in this process he/she will loose her memories of the marriage, of the love they may have had in this earthly life. This sounds like a very slight punishment when compared to eternal torment, but it will mean pain and grief. Yet it might be necessary in order to clean someone from sins and the past. Ultimately there will be peace and happiness, but that's like when one of the two in a couple get Alzheimers or something like that. It's possible with Christ to love such people and finally to have peace with this, but at first it will be terrible.

Anyway, this has come to be my idea about the lake of fire. Perhaps there is more to it, like two different afterlives, that the saved spent it somewhere else than the damned.

But I don't mean anymore there will be endless suffering. This is not our Jesus who knows suffering so well.

[WhiteWings]

Hi,

I think LoF is bad. Jesus didn't warn us about nothing.

About your couple.
1. Are there couples in heaven? If you are a bride of Christ can you also be married with your earthly partner. Maybe you even remarried because your first partner died.

2. Everyone is a sinner. So everyone changes IMO. Even the saints are not 100% pure (imo)

3. I think we will not forget because imo earth wasa learing experience for us. So it's unlikely our memory of life lessons will be wiped out. That would for example mean Pilate doesn't remember Jesus. There was a short thread on remembering things in Heaven. My personal opinion is that a memory wipe causes huge problems if you look at it more closely.

[anti_nietzsche]

Well maybe things will be simpler. We all speak about a loving and good God and if we go to Heaven we will all realize that and those who didn't get saved will regret it deeply that they had rejected God and then carry that regret for eternity. The smoke that rises for ever and ever may then actually be like incense, something spiritually pure and precious. Think of people who regret something bad and then spend much time trying to atone by good works. "He who is forgiven much, loves much"

Or maybe atheists will get a world that is like they always wanted, a world that seems completely natural and everything is done by chance etc. And then they have to live on that world and its completely like our world today and just doesnt change.

But I think given God's love the first alternative is much more like it.

[WhiteWings]

and then carry that regret for eternity. The smoke that rises for ever and ever may then actually be like incense, something spiritually pure and precious. Think of people who regret something bad and then spend much time trying to atone by good works.

That doesn't sound like pure happiness to me.
It sounds like tears and sorrow.

^KJVRev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

[anti_nietzsche]

Well I had this dream in which I suddenly stepped through a door and entered Heaven and was so certain that God exists and that I would see him soon. Then I saw a receptionist woman which smiled to me and nodded. But I also saw another girl on a bench and she was in tears and sorrow.

I thought this meant that now both of us were scheduled with going to God for the final judgment, and while I was confident the woman on the bench was not. But it was not the horror of hell but deep regret of having left God.

it's like a bit in this life ... I regret many things I've done but because of God's grace my sins lead to more love. And I don't cry and feel much sorrow about them. But it takes a while to reach that point. Eventually you are right and God will soothe all pain, but I do think it's possible that God lets people be sad for a while.

[shawn]

I do think that there will be reconciliation at the end for everyone .. yet I also believe that we should not downplay the things about damnation. For example, one thing that comes to mind for me that the lake of fire might burn people off their identity. This will not hurt and the person in question just becomes completely new, which will actually mean a blessing for them. They will not regret it. But still there is something terrible about it ...

Think about an old couple in Heaven. One was an atheist, the other a christian. Both die and come to God. The christian will be saved, the other has to go through the lake of fire and become new. But in this process he/she will loose her memories of the marriage, of the love they may have had in this earthly life. This sounds like a very slight punishment when compared to eternal torment, but it will mean pain and grief. Yet it might be necessary in order to clean someone from sins and the past. Ultimately there will be peace and happiness, but that's like when one of the two in a couple get Alzheimers or something like that. It's possible with Christ to love such people and finally to have peace with this, but at first it will be terrible.

Anyway, this has come to be my idea about the lake of fire. Perhaps there is more to it, like two different afterlives, that the saved spent it somewhere else than the damned.

But I don't mean anymore there will be endless suffering. This is not our Jesus who knows suffering so well.

Even if I was a UR guy I don't think I could buy into that view of the LoF.  I mean it's possible that Christians must suffer through the painful purification process on earth and non believers get a non painful version in the LoF.  It's possible you would lose your memories...just not sure where you are getting this opinion.  Personally, I think the LoF is ED.  But, if UR is the way...I would have to assume the process of purification to be less than pleasant.  I would have to also assume there is a benefit in the afterlife for acceptance of Christ in this life.

[thinktank]

I do think that there will be reconciliation at the end for everyone .. yet I also believe that we should not downplay the things about damnation. For example, one thing that comes to mind for me that the lake of fire might burn people off their identity. This will not hurt and the person in question just becomes completely new, which will actually mean a blessing for them. They will not regret it. But still there is something terrible about it ...

Think about an old couple in Heaven. One was an atheist, the other a christian. Both die and come to God. The christian will be saved, the other has to go through the lake of fire and become new. But in this process he/she will loose her memories of the marriage, of the love they may have had in this earthly life. This sounds like a very slight punishment when compared to eternal torment, but it will mean pain and grief. Yet it might be necessary in order to clean someone from sins and the past. Ultimately there will be peace and happiness, but that's like when one of the two in a couple get Alzheimers or something like that. It's possible with Christ to love such people and finally to have peace with this, but at first it will be terrible.

Anyway, this has come to be my idea about the lake of fire. Perhaps there is more to it, like two different afterlives, that the saved spent it somewhere else than the damned.

But I don't mean anymore there will be endless suffering. This is not our Jesus who knows suffering so well.

This is what Ur teaches, that's one reason I prefer annhilation, less painfull.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: The pain of the LOF is as the pain of a woman/soul giving birth (to the Son). They missed it the first time around, they won't miss it afterwards. Same as pattern of brazen altar. ALL had to bring sacrifices, ie. the dying to self, the carnal beastly natures being put to death.

This is why we have as one of our foundations mentioned in Hebrews, ie. the laying on of hands. They had to lay hands on the sacrifices, symbolizing them doing the works (hands) of putting to death the flesh/carnal beastly natures, and the imputing of their sins onto the animal. Whatsoever sins ye remit, they are remitted, whatsoever sins ye retain, they are retained. Blessings...

[thinktank]

So am I correct in saying in UR that a person who is going through the lake of fire experience are those who don't  know Christ,will be purged of all their sins whether it takes 1 second or a 100 years and then after they have been purged, they then automatically accept Christ?
It just seems a large pill to swallow and in some ways makes their existense on earth rather pointless, for with universal reconciliation there is a purpose and that purpose is to choose between sin and God, as Christ said "choose this day who you will serve".

They missed it the first time around, they won't miss it afterwards. Same as pattern of brazen altar. ALL had to bring sacrifices, ie. the dying to self, the carnal beastly natures being put to death.


Also I am a little confused as to how the carnal desires will be purged from them with UR, when they do not have a flesh and blood body to experience the carnal desires.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: My  :2c: Because if you read back where I was discussing what He had given me pertaining to what happens to the soul at death, those carnal beastly natures they gave life to, didn't overcome, ect., are still with them, as He reproves us with our own wickedness.

The purpose of choosing this day whom we will serve, is to have a resurrection while still in the body, ie. corruption swallowed up of life. It's not just the physical body that needs this covering, the soul is feminine and He ordered women to have a covering.

Eve/type of soul, removed her covering thru sin, and as she is the mother of all living in the flesh, we have to receive of our Covering again. The purpose of the Holy Ghost coming as fire is to consume the soul/carnal beastly natures, and thereby making the garment (the soul houses the Spirit) clean, washed in the blood.

If all we needed was initial salvation experience, there would have been no need for the Holy Ghost to come. Notice in Acts 2 it said He SHED forth this. He took it off, AS A GARMENT, a covering. Same thing Elijah did with Elisha, basically.

The Holy Ghost is as a MANTLE, outer covering. This is as the outer covering of the ark of the Tabernacle, the outward anointing or covering of gold over the wood (speaks of carnal nature, a tree cut down).

WHATEVER part of us is not like God, is changed into that nature, in the LOF, for God is a consuming fire and whatever is not like Him is what is consumed. It's not destroyed as we think of it, but changed. We don't have to be in a physical body for this to take place. The soul is what makes us, us.

Let me give you a personal example. Before I came to the Lord, if you had looked into the dictionary under the word "stubborness", you would have found my picture.  :BangHead: :eeew: :mblush: 

Aware of this, I kept cursing that thing and commanding it to loose me, and be consumed by the fire of the living God. Finally one day, the Lord showed me that SUBMITTED TO HIM, that same stubborness was a thing of beauty in the Master's hand.

He had used it to keep me from laying down and dying and giving up, when the trials and hardships came from walking with Him. It had been consumed in the fire of the Holy Ghost (every knee shall bow = nothing STANDING in us), and it's nature was changed.

Adam was given dominion over all the carnal beastly natures, and he was to rule over them. He failed, Christ didn't and He gives us authority to rule over them by submission to His Spirit.

When "they" are no longer given "life" by us (no longer empowered by the soul/Eve, mother of all that have life outside of Him), they become as a footstool under His feet IN US. Does not any good footstool elevate the feet?

We are the "feet generation". The Head was birthed 2000 years ago, the feet are being raised up to reign thru rest in Him. No more warfare, swords beaten into plowshares, ie. going from warfare to planting seed. Blessed are the FEET that stand upon Mt. Zion.

And the cool thing about the "feet" is, that as a disciple in this hour, we get to wash the feet of those that are "dusty", ie. IN THE DUST. Blessings...

[willieH]

willieH: Hi T-tank...  :happygrin:

I do think that there will be reconciliation at the end for everyone .. yet I also believe that we should not downplay the things about damnation. For example, one thing that comes to mind for me that the lake of fire might burn people off their identity. This will not hurt and the person in question just becomes completely new, which will actually mean a blessing for them. They will not regret it. But still there is something terrible about it ...

Think about an old couple in Heaven. One was an atheist, the other a christian. Both die and come to God. The christian will be saved, the other has to go through the lake of fire and become new. But in this process he/she will loose her memories of the marriage, of the love they may have had in this earthly life. This sounds like a very slight punishment when compared to eternal torment, but it will mean pain and grief. Yet it might be necessary in order to clean someone from sins and the past. Ultimately there will be peace and happiness, but that's like when one of the two in a couple get Alzheimers or something like that. It's possible with Christ to love such people and finally to have peace with this, but at first it will be terrible.

Anyway, this has come to be my idea about the lake of fire. Perhaps there is more to it, like two different afterlives, that the saved spent it somewhere else than the damned.

But I don't mean anymore there will be endless suffering. This is not our Jesus who knows suffering so well.

This is what Ur teaches, that's one reason I prefer annhilation, less painfull.

No... that is NOT what "UR" teaches... That is what "some" which believe UR, teach...  Just as with any other viewpoint...  :dontknow:

That YOU believe in "ANNHILATION [murder], ...thereby means that YOU believe and TEACH just as do SDA believers?  For ANNHILATION [murder] is what they believe.  :dontknow:  Do you follow the writings of E.G. White?  Do you observe the Sabbath?  Do you preach the "3 angels" message?  Are you a trinitarian?

The point being... you have concluded in your observation that ANNHILTION is the ULTIMATE DESTINY of [some] men... this does not mean that you believe and teach the very same things that others "believe and teach" which also hold the belief of ANNHILATION. :mnah:

...willieH  :cloud9:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Rebecca... :hithere:

Just plain AWESOME words sis:

:cloud9: My  :2c: Because if you read back where I was discussing what He had given me pertaining to what happens to the soul at death, those carnal beastly natures they gave life to, didn't overcome, ect., are still with them, as He reproves us with our own wickedness.

The purpose of choosing this day whom we will serve, is to have a resurrection while still in the body, ie. corruption swallowed up of life. It's not just the physical body that needs this covering, the soul is feminine and He ordered women to have a covering.

Eve/type of soul, removed her covering thru sin, and as she is the mother of all living in the flesh, we have to receive of our Covering again. The purpose of the Holy Ghost coming as fire is to consume the soul/carnal beastly natures, and thereby making the garment (the soul houses the Spirit) clean, washed in the blood.

If all we needed was initial salvation experience, there would have been no need for the Holy Ghost to come. Notice in Acts 2 it said He SHED forth this. He took it off, AS A GARMENT, a covering. Same thing Elijah did with Elisha, basically.

The Holy Ghost is as a MANTLE, outer covering. This is as the outer covering of the ark of the Tabernacle, the outward anointing or covering of gold over the wood (speaks of carnal nature, a tree cut down).

WHATEVER part of us is not like God, is changed into that nature, in the LOF, for God is a consuming fire and whatever is not like Him is what is consumed. It's not destroyed as we think of it, but changed. We don't have to be in a physical body for this to take place. The soul is what makes us, us.

Let me give you a personal example. Before I came to the Lord, if you had looked into the dictionary under the word "stubborness", you would have found my picture.  :BangHead: :eeew: :mblush: 

Aware of this, I kept cursing that thing and commanding it to loose me, and be consumed by the fire of the living God. Finally one day, the Lord showed me that SUBMITTED TO HIM, that same stubborness was a thing of beauty in the Master's hand.

He had used it to keep me from laying down and dying and giving up, when the trials and hardships came from walking with Him. It had been consumed in the fire of the Holy Ghost (every knee shall bow = nothing STANDING in us), and it's nature was changed.

Adam was given dominion over all the carnal beastly natures, and he was to rule over them. He failed, Christ didn't and He gives us authority to rule over them by submission to His Spirit.

When "they" are no longer given "life" by us (no longer empowered by the soul/Eve, mother of all that have life outside of Him), they become as a footstool under His feet IN US. Does not any good footstool elevate the feet?

We are the "feet generation". The Head was birthed 2000 years ago, the feet are being raised up to reign thru rest in Him. No more warfare, swords beaten into plowshares, ie. going from warfare to planting seed. Blessed are the FEET that stand upon Mt. Zion.

And the cool thing about the "feet" is, that as a disciple in this hour, we get to wash the feet of those that are "dusty", ie. IN THE DUST. Blessings...

You are as wise and spiritual a person, as I have ever encountered in my life...  :thumbsup:  :friendstu:

...willieH  :Sparkletooth:

[Cardinal]

 :mblush: Aww....thanks Willie, but to God be the glory, and right back at 'cha..... :HeartThrob:

[Beloved Servant]

 :hithere:

[CHB]

I started out thinking that eternal hell was right. Then I got into the World Wide Church of God and they believed in annhilation which made more sense but there was always something not quite right in this belief.

If annhilation is correct then Jesus would have to remain dead in order for any one to be released from it. In other words wouldn't Jesus have to pay this debt by staying dead in order for anyone to escape it? But the debt he paid ended in life so this is what we will inherit.  

CHB

[thinktank]

I started out thinking that eternal hell was right. Then I got into the World Wide Church of God and they believed in annhilation which made more sense but there was always something not quite right in this belief.

If annhilation is correct then Jesus would have to remain dead in order for any one to be released from it. In other words wouldn't Jesus have to pay this debt by staying dead in order for anyone to escape it? But the debt he paid ended in life so this is what we will inherit.  

CHB

He would not have to stay dead because he paid the penalty of death. If a penalty for treason was a beheading, then if the head should fall off, then the penalty has been paid. If the person somehow gets his friends to screw back the head on him and he lives, it doesn't change the fact that he was once beheaded. :2c:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi A_N...  :cloud9:

I do think that there will be reconciliation at the end for everyone .. yet I also believe that we should not downplay the things about damnation. For example, one thing that comes to mind for me that the lake of fire might burn people off their identity. This will not hurt and the person in question just becomes completely new, which will actually mean a blessing for them. They will not regret it. But still there is something terrible about it ...

Personally, I do not find that in the Creating hand of the Potter, there is anything "terrible" at all...  there is however, in the processing of precious stones, and metals, a necessary shedding of the outer waste materials, which must be removed to expose the INNER beauty and VALUE within.

Think about an old couple in Heaven. One was an atheist, the other a christian. Both die and come to God. The christian will be saved, the other has to go through the lake of fire and become new. But in this process he/she will loose her memories of the marriage, of the love they may have had in this earthly life.

Now why in the world would LOVE -- which IS GOD -- 1 John 4:8 -- destroy the memory of ITSELF in others?  That is UNREASONABLE...  LOVE is about preserving LOVE... not destroying it.

What I can see would be "destroyed" within the processing of LOVE, is that which was OUTSIDE the LOVE within any given relationship... leaving only LOVE to remain FOR EVER...  :nod: :boogie:

This sounds like a very slight punishment when compared to eternal torment, but it will mean pain and grief.

What "GOOD NEWS" is found in this, a_n?  If we are determining our message as GOOD NEWS, ...what part has "pain and grief" within it?  

If I am running up to you, and telling you that "I have GOOD NEWS for you!!!  GOD INFINITELY LOVES you!..." :boogie: ...and then as your ears perk up to recieve this with Joy, comes the BIG...

"BUT --->  You will have to go through FIERCE TORTURE in FIRE, to recieve this LOVE in your experience..."

Will this just cause you to jump up & down with JOY?  Or honestly... would you see TWO CONTRASTING and CONTRADICTORY, elements in my message?

If GOD so "INFINITELY LOVES" me... then, as I am amidst an experience IN THIS LIFE, in which I am dealing with, ...diseases, surgeries, loss of (eventually ALL) loved ones, health in general, financial dispairs, anxieties, pain of many varieties, tears, sufferings in myriads of the moments in which I live, ...then send YOU to tell me, that there is MORE of the SAME to come for me, even WORSE!   :mshock:

:omg:  ...This is hardly "GOOD NEWS", bro... no matter how one might religiously attempt to "paint it" so it sounds AUTHENTIC, as the message which is conveyed in the WORD unto us... and that which He sends us to TELL the WORLD that He so LOVES...

If you will, read these verses -- Mark 4:36-40

As the STORM grew in ferocity, it caused the Apostles to FEAR for their lives, as CHRIST  calmly slept...

Then, the Apostles proceeded to  "JUMP on His case" for the PEACE He was amidst (sleeping without a care), while THEY were in the middle of the onset of their DEATHS!  ...BUT... what happened, a_n?

CHRIST awoke... (still peaceful)... and SPOKE PEACE unto the STORM... and the STORM --- IMMEDIATELY ceased its turmoil! -- Then He reprimanded them for LACK OF FAITH!

The STORM didnt "rear up" and become worse... instead, HIS WORD spoke PEACE unto it... and His PEACE SWALLOWED the TURMOIL [the storm]...  :dontknow:

JESUS never once commanded His Apostles to go forth and WARN others of "PAIN & GRIEF" to come!

We are to be sharing "GOOD NEWS" with one another IN the CAMP, and then unto others afterwards, ...

The "GOOD NEWS" must needs be IN the CAMP, ...as those already IN the CAMP, shall later venture to communicate this "GOOD NEWS" to those OUTSIDE the CAMP...

(1)  Shall we go out into the WORLD now... and tell them of more PAIN & GRIEF to come for them [i.e. FIRE oriented TORMENT -- LOF, HELL, ANNHILATION, PURGATORY]?  Or,

(2)  Shall we tell the WORLD of the GREAT LOVE of CHRIST which has made a way back to PEACE from this wretched experience of PAIN & GRIEF, in which we all find ourselves presently amidst?  

Which of these 2, sounds more like... "GOOD NEWS" to you?  :dunno:

How can MORE of the "STORM" and its TURMOIL, actually be truthfully substituted for PEACE?  :mshock:

I say (no offense to anyone) ...this nothing but a SELFISH, forked tongue, 2 faced presentation... which begins with SELF as PEACEFULLY exempt from it... and then in the assumed "safety" of its inherent SELF CENTEREDNESS ...has no problem willingly proposing more of the STORM to others...  :sigh:

Yet it might be necessary in order to clean someone from sins and the past. Ultimately there will be peace and happiness, but that's like when one of the two in a couple get Alzheimers or something like that. It's possible with Christ to love such people and finally to have peace with this, but at first it will be terrible.

So sorry that you are dwelling in such a place as this, at present bro... "at first" ...was it "terrible" for you?   :dontknow:

And if not... and GOD is PERFECTLY IMPARTIAL to men ---> Acts 10:34 -- 2 Sam 14:14 -- Mark 12:14 -- Eph 6:9 -- Gal 2:6 -- Prov 28:21 -- Job 34:19 -- Col 3:25 -- Rom 2:11 -- 2 Chron 19:7 -- why would it NOT be "terrible" for YOU, ...but "terrible" for others? :dunno:

Anyway, this has come to be my idea about the lake of fire. Perhaps there is more to it, like two different afterlives, that the saved spent it somewhere else than the damned.

But I don't mean anymore there will be endless suffering. This is not our Jesus who knows suffering so well.

You are welcome to what you believe, but it does not sound anything like something named the -- Eph 6:15 -- Rom 10:15 -- "GOSPEL of PEACE" -- to me...  :sigh:

...willieH  :cloud9:

[WhiteWings]

So am I correct in saying in UR that a person who is going through the lake of fire experience are those who don't  know Christ,will be purged of all their sins whether it takes 1 second or a 100 years and then after they have been purged, they then automatically accept Christ?

You are not yet 100 years old and you accepted Jesus...
For Saul/Paul it took a few minutes (I think).

Note: Jews believe in UR too. And "hell" lasts 0-12 months according to their scholars.

[WhiteWings]

Even if I was a UR guy

So you are "Shawn of the dead"? :laughing7: (Horror comedy)

It's possible you would lose your memories

Personally I would think not. Will some people for example forget who Jesus was/is? It gives all kind of problems imo.

I don't think I could buy into that view of the LoF.  I mean it's possible that Christians must suffer through the painful purification process on earth and non believers get a non painful version in the LoF
....
I would have to assume the process of purification to be less than pleasant.

Where does it say ED is instant an painless?
5 miljon years of ET type torture and then die is also ED....

[thinktank]

Even if I was a UR guy

So you are "Shawn of the dead"? :laughing7: (Horror comedy)

It's possible you would lose your memories

Personally I would think not. Will some people for example forget who Jesus was/is? It gives all kind of problems imo.

I don't think I could buy into that view of the LoF.  I mean it's possible that Christians must suffer through the painful purification process on earth and non believers get a non painful version in the LoF
....
I would have to assume the process of purification to be less than pleasant.

Where does it say ED is instant an painless?
5 miljon years of ET type torture and then die is also ED....

As an EDist, lol, not a sadist, the process of destruction is based on the patterns of what already happened in scripture. Lot for example and his wife, destroyed in milli seconds, since God who is love has already used destructive methods, I don't see it as a massive stretch to see that he might destroy the souls of them who refuse repentance.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: But the problem with that idea IMO, is that God is against divorce, and the soul being permanently destroyed, would be a divorce of the soul/woman from the man/spirit.

There's a whole lot more there to the story of Lot, than meets the eye.....He had me in there yesterday......

[willieH]

If the person somehow gets his friends to screw back the head on him and he lives, it doesn't change the fact that he was once beheaded. :2c

Sorry T-tank... but this is just hilarious...  :laugh:

Friendly "head" reattachment via "screwing"?  :laughing7:

Is the head, as it is rolling around on the ground, imploring his friends to "screw it back on"?   :LH:

:faint: ---> +  :director: ---> + :grouppray: =  :heat:

...willieH  :laughhand:

[thinktank]

willieH: Hi T-tank...  :happygrin:

I do think that there will be reconciliation at the end for everyone .. yet I also believe that we should not downplay the things about damnation. For example, one thing that comes to mind for me that the lake of fire might burn people off their identity. This will not hurt and the person in question just becomes completely new, which will actually mean a blessing for them. They will not regret it. But still there is something terrible about it ...

Think about an old couple in Heaven. One was an atheist, the other a christian. Both die and come to God. The christian will be saved, the other has to go through the lake of fire and become new. But in this process he/she will loose her memories of the marriage, of the love they may have had in this earthly life. This sounds like a very slight punishment when compared to eternal torment, but it will mean pain and grief. Yet it might be necessary in order to clean someone from sins and the past. Ultimately there will be peace and happiness, but that's like when one of the two in a couple get Alzheimers or something like that. It's possible with Christ to love such people and finally to have peace with this, but at first it will be terrible.

Anyway, this has come to be my idea about the lake of fire. Perhaps there is more to it, like two different afterlives, that the saved spent it somewhere else than the damned.

But I don't mean anymore there will be endless suffering. This is not our Jesus who knows suffering so well.

This is what Ur teaches, that's one reason I prefer annhilation, less painfull.

No... that is NOT what "UR" teaches... That is what "some" which believe UR, teach...  Just as with any other viewpoint...  :dontknow:

That YOU believe in "ANNHILATION [murder], ...thereby means that YOU believe and TEACH just as do SDA believers?  For ANNHILATION [murder] is what they believe.  :dontknow:  Do you follow the writings of E.G. White?  Do you observe the Sabbath?  Do you preach the "3 angels" message?  Are you a trinitarian?

I would not call annhilation murder, just that God says the wages of sin is death, those who refuse Jesus cannot have life because God will not allow darkness to exist forever, for death itself must be destroyed and the devil. The question is who will refuse Jesus? Maybe nobody, for me only time will tell.

Out of all the churches I have great respect for the 7th day adventist for they are ahead of their time concerning ET and the sabbath, but unlike them who belive we must accept Christ now or perish, the universal reconciliation position is that in future all will be raised from the dead Acts 24 the just and the unjust. The resurection of the saints happens in difficult times, but the resurection of the unsaved, awaits for another day, another age, the millenium age.

The point being... you have concluded in your observation that ANNHILTION is the ULTIMATE DESTINY of [some] men... this does not mean that you believe and teach the very same things that others "believe and teach" which also hold the belief of ANNHILATION. :mnah:

I would not say it is their destiny as such, even though Peters writing do suggest that some men are destined for eternal darkness forever as natural brute beasts made to be taken and destroyed, but my belief is that there is danger of destruction, the lake of fire scripture could be so with my belief that nobody will be thrown into the fire, for it does not say that any will be, only that the judgment is there. Only the devil and the beast and false prophet are said to be thrown into the fire, the rest of humanity apart from the false prophet and beast, is up to them, if they want to be saved. As a universal reconciliationist, I believe God will give plenty of time for all men to choose his ways, during the 1000 millenium peace, when the devil can no longer deceive men and the world is a lovely peacefull place, where God rules through his saints. Many will want to sit down with Abraham, Issac and Jacob, but will be shut out, there will be darkness, plenty of time to repent. Abraham, issac and Jacob, still in their graves, so this age Jesus speaks of must be a future messianic teaching age, where the knowledge of Jesus Christ and his ways are spread throughout the world.

...willieH  :cloud9:

[willieH]

As an EDist, lol, not a sadist, the process of destruction is based on the patterns of what already happened in scripture. Lot for example and his wife, destroyed in milli seconds, since God who is love has already used destructive methods, I don't see it as a massive stretch to see that he might destroy the souls of them who refuse repentance.

You embrace OT demands of LAW,  ...and then note them to continue in the NT of GRACE... :mnah:

sorry... I not buy it...  :thumbdown:

Repentence is not something that MEN do of their own decision... they are either LED to repent by GOD, or they are not -- Rom 2:4 -- and in DUE TIME -- 2 Tim 2:6 -- it is the INTENT of GOD that ALL shall come to REPENT -- 2 Pet 3:9 -- bowing at the knee, confessing [unto salvation] -- Rom 10:13 -- with the tongue that JESUS CHRIST is Lord -- Phil 2:10-11

...willieH  :boogie: :boogie: :boogie:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi T-tank... :hithere:

Anyway, this has come to be my idea about the lake of fire. Perhaps there is more to it, like two different afterlives, that the saved spent it somewhere else than the damned.

But I don't mean anymore there will be endless suffering. This is not our Jesus who knows suffering so well.

This is what Ur teaches, that's one reason I prefer annhilation, less painfull.

No... that is NOT what "UR" teaches... That is what "some" which believe UR, teach...  Just as with any other viewpoint...  :dontknow:

That YOU believe in "ANNHILATION [murder], ...thereby means that YOU believe and TEACH just as do SDA believers?  For ANNHILATION [murder] is what they believe.  :dontknow:  Do you follow the writings of E.G. White?  Do you observe the Sabbath?  Do you preach the "3 angels" message?  Are you a trinitarian?

I would not call annhilation murder, just that God says the wages of sin is death, those who refuse Jesus cannot have life because God will not allow darkness to exist forever, for death itself must be destroyed and the devil. The question is who will refuse Jesus? Maybe nobody, for me only time will tell.

Then in stating this ["I would not call annhilation murder"], then ANNHILATION of the JEWS, which "Hitler" did was not ...murder?   :mshock:

What difference is there between GOD burning men or men burning men?  In either case... MURDER (removal of life via a premeditated PURPOSED ACT) takes place, irregardless of "justifications" that might or might not be falsely applied to the ACT.

Out of all the churches I have great respect for the 7th day adventist for they are ahead of their time concerning ET and the sabbath, but unlike them who belive we must accept Christ now or perish, the universal reconciliation position is that in future all will be raised from the dead Acts 24 the just and the unjust. The resurection of the saints happens in difficult times, but the resurection of the unsaved, awaits for another day, another age, the millenium age.

FIRST --- I was member of the SDA organization for 5 years... and though I agree with the HOLINESS of the Sabbath... the Sabbath is made FOR MAN... no matter how one might or might not observe it... The SDA church is the most loving I have ever encountered and I have encountered many different church organizations in my life.

SECOND --- There is no such thing as the "millenium" age.  This is UNBIBLICAL and LINEAR terminology made of SYMBOLIC text...

The point being... you have concluded in your observation that ANNHILATION is the ULTIMATE DESTINY of [some] men... this does not mean that you believe and teach the very same things that others "believe and teach" which also hold the belief of ANNHILATION. :mnah:

I would not say it is their destiny as such, even though Peters writing do suggest that some men are destined for eternal darkness forever as natural brute beasts made to be taken and destroyed, but my belief is that there is danger of destruction, the lake of fire scripture could be so with my belief that nobody will be thrown into the fire, for it does not say that any will be, only that the judgment is there.

CHRIST said -- John 12:31 -- NOW is the JUDGMENT of THIS WORLD -- not a week from tuesday, or next leap year, or at the end of time, ...NOW. 

Just as NOW is the DAY of Salvation... not just the "DAY" that Paul wrote 2 Corinthians, or the day after... but in ALL DAYS [of time] that are found IN the [eternal] DAY of YHVH -- Gen 2:4 -- in the which ALL generations appear... NOW!

There is no conjecture made here... it is a plain, straight forward statement which is either BELIEVED or DISBELIEVED... you choose to disbelieve it.

Again, you out of convenience, make literal observation of SYMBOLIC language.  The notation and NOTIFICATION, of the LOF is only found in the book of Revelation, which you depict as noting the future... which in turn,means, that in the 4K years preceeding the writing of this book, that no applications of IT can be made to those living before it.  This is an inaccurate observation... for the WORD is the same YESTERDAY, today, and FOR EVER.

EVERY WORD of the WORD is applicable to EVERY MAN... regardless of the time period in which he/she lived in this realm.

GOD is no RESPECTER of PERSONS... so any applications of IT must be APPLIED to ALL or NONE. 

The book of Revelation is the SPIRITUAL UNVEILING/REVEALING of the WORD of GOD... JESUS CHRIST... which could not take place in the realm of TIME until He was manifest within it... The Divine order is that the NATURAL come first, then the SPIRITUAL... The NATURAL JUSTICE of the WORD of God with man [LAW], then the SPIRITUAL [GRACE] -- 1 Cor 15:46

That does not mean that He which is the BEGINNING AND the END of all things, does not apply to ALL... at ALL times...

The book of REVELATION is NOT a prophetic writing of the END of time... rather is a writing concerning TIMES entirety and the application to men, of the WORD of GOD to ALL points and moments of TIME...

Only the devil and the beast and false prophet are said to be thrown into the fire, the rest of humanity apart from the false prophet and beast, is up to them, if they want to be saved. As a universal reconciliationist, I believe God will give plenty of time for all men to choose his ways, during the 1000 millenium peace, when the devil can no longer deceive men and the world is a lovely peacefull place, where God rules through his saints.

You might more benefit by spending less time in the "Left behind" books and movies, and more in the Scriptures... Especially concentrating upon BIBLICAL terminology, and not that which MEN ...ADD... to it such as the term "millennium"...

HADES and DEATH were cast into the Lake of FIRE to be destroyed... THIS took place 2k years ago, at CALVARY... for in RESURRECTION, ...CHRIST and LIFE were victorious over the GRAVE [hades] and DEATH which assaulted His life and our own... destroying it... and its manifestations which come in due time.

CHRIST's "gold" [His life] was TRIED in FIRE -- Rev 3:18 -- What "FIRE" do you think this was, T-tank?

ALL men shall be salted [seasoned] with FIRE -- Mark 9:49 -- not just "unbelievers" (you might observe as such and amongst which you were at one time, numbered)...

ALL are concluded UNBELIEVERS -- Rom 11:32 -- which is the rite of passage in the Lake of FIRE -- Rev 21:8

Many will want to sit down with Abraham, Issac and Jacob, but will be shut out, there will be darkness, plenty of time to repent. Abraham, issac and Jacob, still in their graves, so this age Jesus speaks of must be a future messianic teaching age, where the knowledge of Jesus Christ and his ways are spread throughout the world.

I don't know where you been bro... but the message of JESUS CHRIST and "his ways" has been actively going throughout the WORLD for 2K years...

...willieH  :cloud9: