Miracles at the Temple

[WhiteWings]

After Jesus died a few signs appeared in the Temple.
Each year lots were cast for a goat sacrifice. One lot was black and the other white. 50% change of drawing the black lot/stone
But from 30AD (Jesus died) 'till 70AD (Temple destroyed) it was always the black lot that was drawn
A 1 in 1099511627776 chance.

The most western lamp (most close to Holy of Holies) of the Menorah was always lit. Day and night. The priests took extreme good care to make sure it never went out. With success for a  long time.
But during those 40 years the lamp went out every night.
On the day of Attonement the high priest carried a crimson strap into the Holies of Holies. Often it turned white. The Jews viewed that a sign of God's approval of the past year.
The 40 years following Jesus's death the strap never turned white.Also during those 40 years the Temple doors just behind the curtain that was torn by the falling lintel at Jesus' death openend themselfs each night.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Wow....where'd you find all this at?  :thumbsup:

[WhiteWings]

Jews keep records of their history.

What wonders me is that they never saw a Jesus-Temple signs-God connection.
The lamp going out even once is horror to them. Surely they must have had many debates when the lamp went out 1000's of times.

[Cardinal]

 :sigh: Shows the level of corruption many of them had sunk to....
Many of the priests received Him....

[WhiteWings]

Not really a miracle but the court room in the Temple was destroyed when Jesus died. So He was the last one judged there.

[WhiteWings]

The Jews knew God left them in 66 AD. A week before passover 3 o' clock a great light shone over the altar for 30 minutes and then left.
The Jews called it "The Glory departing"
At passover the brass gates that required 20 men to open them; opened themselfs.
At Pentecost the priests heard a roar and then a voice "we are departing hence"

The glory went to the Mount of Olives where Jesus died (He was stoned) and stayed there for 3.5 year. The people were aware of that in some undescribed way.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Fascinating....

[Beloved Servant]

www.outreachjudaism.org/Yomkippur.html

[WhiteWings]

www.outreachjudaism.org/Yomkippur.html

One debunked. Three to go  :laughing7:

[Molly]

www.outreachjudaism.org/Yomkippur.html

One debunked. Three to go  :laughing7:

That was a pretty hostile argument.  I'm sure you were 'gleefully' using this to 'advance your tenuous argument'....Not.  

First of all, the scarlet ribbon turning white strikes me as a cheap parlor trick, and he does, in fact, say that it stopped happening so consistently after one certain rabbi died.  Maybe the others were not so adept at making it happen?  He also admits that it failed to turn white in the last 40 years after Christ's death, but gives a different reason for why this happened--the spiritual decay of the Jewish people during that time and the increase in murder of their own people. [but it's ok to murder others?]



The Talmud bears record to this spiritual decay, and declares that this national tragedy reached its height exactly 40 years prior to the destruction of the second Temple.  It was during this turbulent time that murders became so widespread that the Sanhedrin9 ceased to judge capital crimes such as homicide.10

Although the termination of miraculous events in the Temple was unrelated to Christian theology, it bore testimony to a time in history when Jewish people in great numbers turned against each other.


In the years that followed the death of Shimon HaTzaddik, the people's dedication to his golden rule slacked off, and consequently, there were some years when the ribbon turned white and others when it did not.

Sadly, we can now also understand why 40 years prior to the destruction of the second Temple this auspicious miracle ended.  It was during these calamitous four decades when Isaiah's words of condemnation were personified.


So, he's not denying the miracle ceased--he is just denying the reason given by the Christians.  Did it occur to him that Jesus himself was a Jew who was murdered by his own people?  At least, he should have factored that into his own argument.  Even if Jesus were just another Jew, he is certainly the most famous murder victim in that period of time. And, he does admit that the miracle ceased after the death of Jesus. Nor does he offer an explanation for the degenerate spirit of the Jews in the last 40 years.

In such a way, he is still not able to escape the Messiah, no matter how hard he tries.


38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

39For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

--Mat 23

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: All the anti-missionaries are like that. I spent 6 months on a Messianic Jewish board with them trying to debunk it, and in the light of absolute proof, they stay in denial. It was a really good preparatory experience, though, because they know their scriptures and have slants on it we don't know. Not their particular time to have their eyes opened, though......Blessings....

[Molly]

:cloud9: All the anti-missionaries are like that. I spent 6 months on a Messianic Jewish board with them trying to debunk it, and in the light of absolute proof, they stay in denial. It was a really good preparatory experience, though, because they know their scriptures and have slants on it we don't know. Not their particular time to have their eyes opened, though......Blessings....

I was struck by how, if nothing else, his own hostility blinds him.  And, what is hostility but defensiveness?  And, what causes defensiveness but guilt?

He knows. lol

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Yeah, we ran circles around them on that board, and the more we did, the madder they got and the more irrational replies we got. It's a lot for them to admit, because they lose their whole family and most of their community, at least for a season. They even have mock funerals for them, pronouncing them "dead" to the others. It's really very sad they are in such bondage. Blessings...

[Molly]

:cloud9: Yeah, we ran circles around them on that board, and the more we did, the madder they got and the more irrational replies we got. It's a lot for them to admit, because they lose their whole family and most of their community, at least for a season. They even have mock funerals for them, pronouncing them "dead" to the others. It's really very sad they are in such bondage. Blessings...

Now that I think about it, isn't it interesting that they were given 40 years from the start of Jesus ministry to the destruction of the temple?

Coincidence? 

[WhiteWings]

So, he's not denying the miracle ceased--he is just denying the reason given by the Christians.

Because the Christians claim the miracle started at Jesus's death. But, according to the Rabbi, it started much earlier.

Did it occur to him that Jesus himself was a Jew who was murdered by his own people?

Jesus was no Jew at death. The court excommunicated Him.

In such a way, he is still not able to escape the Messiah, no matter how hard he tries.

I think he did a good job.

[Cardinal]

:cloud9: Yeah, we ran circles around them on that board, and the more we did, the madder they got and the more irrational replies we got. It's a lot for them to admit, because they lose their whole family and most of their community, at least for a season. They even have mock funerals for them, pronouncing them "dead" to the others. It's really very sad they are in such bondage. Blessings...

Now that I think about it, isn't it interesting that they were given 40 years from the start of Jesus ministry to the destruction of the temple?

Coincidence? 

:cloud9: Yeah, I caught that. If it's true, definitely not a coincidence; they knew what it meant. Forty is the number of completion. The difference between the 60 fold realm and the 100 fold realm, is 40 years in the wilderness. Blessings....

[Molly]

Because the Christians claim the miracle started at Jesus's death. But, according to the Rabbi, it started much earlier.

The Christians are right when they say, according to the Talmud, it ceased completely for the last 40 years.

Jesus was no Jew at death. The court excommunicated Him.

Jesus was a Jew by birth.  No court can excommunicate him from his birthright.

 He is the Lion of the tribe of Judah.  He is the Prince of his tribe.  Good luck trying to excommunicate him from his birthright [that's not a Jewish term, is it?]

[Molly]

:cloud9: Yeah, we ran circles around them on that board, and the more we did, the madder they got and the more irrational replies we got. It's a lot for them to admit, because they lose their whole family and most of their community, at least for a season. They even have mock funerals for them, pronouncing them "dead" to the others. It's really very sad they are in such bondage. Blessings...

Now that I think about it, isn't it interesting that they were given 40 years from the start of Jesus ministry to the destruction of the temple?

Coincidence? 

:cloud9: Yeah, I caught that. If it's true, definitely not a coincidence; they knew what it meant. Forty is the number of completion. The difference between the 60 fold realm and the 100 fold realm, is 40 years in the wilderness. Blessings....

So could we argue that except for a few [Caleb and Joshua], they never made it out of the 60 fold realm?  The second circumcision, which made it out of the wilderness, are the shadow of the Christians.

Therefore, it is the Christians who receive the 100 fold realm?

[WhiteWings]

Jesus was no Jew at death. The court excommunicated Him.

Jesus was a Jew by birth.  No court can excommunicate him from his birthright.

The Biblical basis of excommunication is anathema. The references are found in Galatians 1:8 — "But even if we, or an angel from Heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be anathema!" Then also, 1 Corinthians 16:22 — "If anyone does not love the Lord, he is to be anathema." The word can be translated several ways; the King James Version translates it as accursed. The New Testament contains limited examples of excommunication. Jesus, in Matthew 18:17, teaches that those who repeatedly offend others should be treated as "Gentiles or tax collectors." In the Epistle to the Romans 16:17, Paul writes to "mark those who cause divisions contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned and avoid them", and in 1 Corinthians 5, he instructs the Corinthians to expel an immoral member of their community. Also, in 2nd John vv. 10 & 11, the writer advises believers that "whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house [οικιαν, residence or abode, or "inmates of the house" (family)], neither bid him God speed: for he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds".

Anathema was used in the early Church as a form of extreme religious sanction beyond excommunication.[citation needed] The earliest recorded example was in AD 306. The Catholic Church still makes use of the sanction, though it is rarely used against an individual, except perhaps for automatic excommunication. Some modern Protestant churches refer to any form of exclusion as anathema.

He is the Lion of the tribe of Judah.  He is the Prince of his tribe.  Good luck trying to excommunicate him from his birthright [that's not a Jewish term, is it?]

That's your view. In the Jewish view He was a heretic.

[Molly]

The Biblical basis of excommunication is anathema.

But that has nothing to do with whether he is Jewish or not.  He was Jewish by birth.  I could be both Irish and anathema.  It would not strip me of my cultural heritage, or, more particularly, my DNA.

Jesus was Jewish[the tribe of Judah] at birth and at death.

[WhiteWings]

http://www.askelm.com/prophecy/p950801.htm

Google for sotah 47a and Sanhedrin 107b

[WhiteWings]

Because the Christians claim the miracle started at Jesus's death. But, according to the Rabbi, it started much earlier.

The Christians are right when they say, according to the Talmud, it ceased completely for the last 40 years.

I agree with that.
But I also see the point of the Rabbi. After Jesus' the number of times the ribbon didn't turn white increased to 100%.
How much was it before? 1%? 20%? 99%? Did it steadily increase over the years?
If it was 1% then it was really a big sign. But 99%....

[WhiteWings]

Now that I think about it, isn't it interesting that they were given 40 years from the start of Jesus ministry to the destruction of the temple?

Coincidence? 

Maybe. You only know it was minimum 40 years.
The ribbon didn't turn white an unmentioned number of times before He died.
Maybe the ribbon didn't turn white the year before He died. Then it would have been 41 years.

[Molly]

Now that I think about it, isn't it interesting that they were given 40 years from the start of Jesus ministry to the destruction of the temple?

Coincidence?  

Maybe. You only know it was minimum 40 years.
The ribbon didn't turn white an unmentioned number of times before He died.
Maybe the ribbon didn't turn white the year before He died. Then it would have been 41 years.

I only know what the Rabbi himself tells me, that

40 years prior to the destruction of the second Temple this auspicious miracle ended

and also that

The Talmud bears record to this spiritual decay, and declares that this national tragedy reached its height exactly 40 years prior to the destruction of the second Temple


He's the one that picked 40 years, not me.

[WhiteWings]

The second point, however, presents a far more serious problem for Christian apologists.  If in fact, as the "Hebrew-Christian" insisted, the reason that the scarlet wool strip did not turn white was "because Jesus was the final atonement," and there was thus no longer any need for animal sacrifices, why then are the same animal sacrifices coming back?  Christians have very little room to maneuver on this matter because the Bible is quite clear that the animal sacrificial system will be restored in the messianic age.  In fact, in the last nine chapters of the Book of Ezekiel, the prophet describes in vivid detail the elaborate rituals and lofty ceremonies which will occur in the third and final messianic Temple. In chapters 43-44, Ezekiel clearly states that the animal sacrifices will be reinstated in their full glory.  This simple fact should at least give Hebrew-Christians pause before they boldly proclaim that the transformation of the scarlet strip of wool had ceased due to the fact that God had done away with animal sacrifices.

Is that true? If so what about the perfect Lamb?