After Jesus died a few signs appeared in the Temple.
Each year lots were cast for a goat sacrifice. One lot was black and the other white. 50% change of drawing the black lot/stone
But from 30AD (Jesus died) 'till 70AD (Temple destroyed) it was always the black lot that was drawn
A 1 in 1099511627776 chance.
The most western lamp (most close to Holy of Holies) of the Menorah was always lit. Day and night. The priests took extreme good care to make sure it never went out. With success for a long time.
But during those 40 years the lamp went out every night.
On the day of Attonement the high priest carried a crimson strap into the Holies of Holies. Often it turned white. The Jews viewed that a sign of God's approval of the past year.
The 40 years following Jesus's death the strap never turned white.
Also during those 40 years the Temple doors just behind the curtain that was torn by the falling lintel at Jesus' death openend themselfs each night.
:cloud9: Wow....where'd you find all this at? :thumbsup:
Jews keep records of their history.
What wonders me is that they never saw a Jesus-Temple signs-God connection.
The lamp going out even once is horror to them. Surely they must have had many debates when the lamp went out 1000's of times.
:sigh: Shows the level of corruption many of them had sunk to....
Many of the priests received Him....
Not really a miracle but the court room in the Temple was destroyed when Jesus died. So He was the last one judged there.
The Jews knew God left them in 66 AD. A week before passover 3 o' clock a great light shone over the altar for 30 minutes and then left.
The Jews called it "The Glory departing"
At passover the brass gates that required 20 men to open them; opened themselfs.
At Pentecost the priests heard a roar and then a voice "we are departing hence"
The glory went to the Mount of Olives where Jesus died (He was stoned) and stayed there for 3.5 year. The people were aware of that in some undescribed way.
:cloud9: Fascinating....
www.outreachjudaism.org/Yomkippur.html
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 11, 2010, 01:05:05 AM
www.outreachjudaism.org/Yomkippur.html
One debunked. Three to go :laughing7:
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 12, 2010, 02:19:35 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 11, 2010, 01:05:05 AM
www.outreachjudaism.org/Yomkippur.html
One debunked. Three to go :laughing7:
That was a pretty hostile argument. I'm sure you were 'gleefully' using this to 'advance your tenuous argument'....Not.
First of all, the scarlet ribbon turning white strikes me as a cheap parlor trick, and he does, in fact, say that it stopped happening so consistently after one certain rabbi died. Maybe the others were not so adept at making it happen? He also admits that it failed to turn white in the last 40 years after Christ's death, but gives a different reason for why this happened--the spiritual decay of the Jewish people during that time and the increase in murder of their own people. [but it's ok to murder others?]
The Talmud bears record to this spiritual decay, and declares that this national tragedy reached its height exactly 40 years prior to the destruction of the second Temple. It was during this turbulent time that murders became so widespread that the Sanhedrin9 ceased to judge capital crimes such as homicide.10
Although the termination of miraculous events in the Temple was unrelated to Christian theology, it bore testimony to a time in history when Jewish people in great numbers turned against each other.
In the years that followed the death of Shimon HaTzaddik, the people's dedication to his golden rule slacked off, and consequently, there were some years when the ribbon turned white and others when it did not.
Sadly, we can now also understand why 40 years prior to the destruction of the second Temple this auspicious miracle ended. It was during these calamitous four decades when Isaiah's words of condemnation were personified.So, he's not denying the miracle ceased--he is just denying the reason given by the Christians. Did it occur to him that Jesus himself was a Jew who was murdered by his own people? At least, he should have factored that into his own argument. Even if Jesus were just another Jew, he is certainly the most famous murder victim in that period of time. And, he does admit that the miracle ceased after the death of Jesus. Nor does he offer an explanation for the degenerate spirit of the Jews in the last 40 years.
In such a way, he is still not able to escape the Messiah, no matter how hard he tries.
38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.--Mat 23
:cloud9: All the anti-missionaries are like that. I spent 6 months on a Messianic Jewish board with them trying to debunk it, and in the light of absolute proof, they stay in denial. It was a really good preparatory experience, though, because they know their scriptures and have slants on it we don't know. Not their particular time to have their eyes opened, though......Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on July 12, 2010, 04:04:09 PM
:cloud9: All the anti-missionaries are like that. I spent 6 months on a Messianic Jewish board with them trying to debunk it, and in the light of absolute proof, they stay in denial. It was a really good preparatory experience, though, because they know their scriptures and have slants on it we don't know. Not their particular time to have their eyes opened, though......Blessings....
I was struck by how, if nothing else, his own hostility blinds him. And, what is hostility but defensiveness? And, what causes defensiveness but guilt?
He knows. lol
:cloud9: Yeah, we ran circles around them on that board, and the more we did, the madder they got and the more irrational replies we got. It's a lot for them to admit, because they lose their whole family and most of their community, at least for a season. They even have mock funerals for them, pronouncing them "dead" to the others. It's really very sad they are in such bondage. Blessings...
Quote from: Cardinal on July 12, 2010, 04:16:17 PM
:cloud9: Yeah, we ran circles around them on that board, and the more we did, the madder they got and the more irrational replies we got. It's a lot for them to admit, because they lose their whole family and most of their community, at least for a season. They even have mock funerals for them, pronouncing them "dead" to the others. It's really very sad they are in such bondage. Blessings...
Now that I think about it, isn't it interesting that they were given 40 years from the start of Jesus ministry to the destruction of the temple?
Coincidence?
Quote from: Molly on July 12, 2010, 03:50:19 PMSo, he's not denying the miracle ceased--he is just denying the reason given by the Christians.
Because the Christians claim the miracle started at Jesus's death. But, according to the Rabbi, it started much earlier.
QuoteDid it occur to him that Jesus himself was a Jew who was murdered by his own people?
Jesus was no Jew at death. The court excommunicated Him.
QuoteIn such a way, he is still not able to escape the Messiah, no matter how hard he tries.
I think he did a good job.
Quote from: Molly on July 12, 2010, 04:55:44 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on July 12, 2010, 04:16:17 PM
:cloud9: Yeah, we ran circles around them on that board, and the more we did, the madder they got and the more irrational replies we got. It's a lot for them to admit, because they lose their whole family and most of their community, at least for a season. They even have mock funerals for them, pronouncing them "dead" to the others. It's really very sad they are in such bondage. Blessings...
Now that I think about it, isn't it interesting that they were given 40 years from the start of Jesus ministry to the destruction of the temple?
Coincidence?
:cloud9: Yeah, I caught that. If it's true, definitely not a coincidence; they knew what it meant. Forty is the number of completion. The difference between the 60 fold realm and the 100 fold realm, is 40 years in the wilderness. Blessings....
QuoteBecause the Christians claim the miracle started at Jesus's death. But, according to the Rabbi, it started much earlier.
The Christians are right when they say, according to the Talmud, it ceased
completely for the last 40 years.
QuoteJesus was no Jew at death. The court excommunicated Him.
Jesus was a Jew by birth. No court can excommunicate him from his birthright.
He is the Lion of the tribe of Judah. He is the Prince of his tribe. Good luck trying to excommunicate him from his birthright [that's not a Jewish term, is it?]
Quote from: Cardinal on July 12, 2010, 05:20:17 PM
Quote from: Molly on July 12, 2010, 04:55:44 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on July 12, 2010, 04:16:17 PM
:cloud9: Yeah, we ran circles around them on that board, and the more we did, the madder they got and the more irrational replies we got. It's a lot for them to admit, because they lose their whole family and most of their community, at least for a season. They even have mock funerals for them, pronouncing them "dead" to the others. It's really very sad they are in such bondage. Blessings...
Now that I think about it, isn't it interesting that they were given 40 years from the start of Jesus ministry to the destruction of the temple?
Coincidence?
:cloud9: Yeah, I caught that. If it's true, definitely not a coincidence; they knew what it meant. Forty is the number of completion. The difference between the 60 fold realm and the 100 fold realm, is 40 years in the wilderness. Blessings....
So could we argue that except for a few [Caleb and Joshua], they never made it out of the 60 fold realm? The second circumcision, which made it out of the wilderness, are the shadow of the Christians.
Therefore, it is the Christians who receive the 100 fold realm?
Quote from: Molly on July 12, 2010, 05:38:47 PM
Quote from: WhiteWingsJesus was no Jew at death. The court excommunicated Him.
Jesus was a Jew by birth. No court can excommunicate him from his birthright.
The Biblical basis of excommunication is anathema. The references are found in Galatians 1:8 — "But even if we, or an angel from Heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be anathema!" Then also, 1 Corinthians 16:22 — "If anyone does not love the Lord, he is to be anathema." The word can be translated several ways; the King James Version translates it as accursed. The New Testament contains limited examples of excommunication. Jesus, in Matthew 18:17, teaches that those who repeatedly offend others should be treated as "Gentiles or tax collectors." In the Epistle to the Romans 16:17, Paul writes to "mark those who cause divisions contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned and avoid them", and in 1 Corinthians 5, he instructs the Corinthians to expel an immoral member of their community. Also, in 2nd John vv. 10 & 11, the writer advises believers that "whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house [οικιαν, residence or abode, or "inmates of the house" (family)], neither bid him God speed: for he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds".
Anathema was used in the early Church as a form of extreme religious sanction beyond excommunication.[citation needed] The earliest recorded example was in AD 306. The Catholic Church still makes use of the sanction, though it is rarely used against an individual, except perhaps for automatic excommunication. Some modern Protestant churches refer to any form of exclusion as anathema.
QuoteHe is the Lion of the tribe of Judah. He is the Prince of his tribe. Good luck trying to excommunicate him from his birthright [that's not a Jewish term, is it?]
That's your view. In the Jewish view He was a heretic.
QuoteThe Biblical basis of excommunication is anathema.
But that has nothing to do with whether he is Jewish or not. He was Jewish by birth. I could be both Irish and anathema. It would not strip me of my cultural heritage, or, more particularly, my DNA.
Jesus was Jewish[the tribe of Judah] at birth and at death.
http://www.askelm.com/prophecy/p950801.htm
Google for sotah 47a and Sanhedrin 107b
Quote from: Molly on July 12, 2010, 05:38:47 PM
QuoteBecause the Christians claim the miracle started at Jesus's death. But, according to the Rabbi, it started much earlier.
The Christians are right when they say, according to the Talmud, it ceased completely for the last 40 years.
I agree with that.
But I also see the point of the Rabbi. After Jesus' the number of times the ribbon didn't turn white increased to 100%.
How much was it before? 1%? 20%? 99%? Did it steadily increase over the years?
If it was 1% then it was really a big sign. But 99%....
Quote from: Molly on July 12, 2010, 04:55:44 PMNow that I think about it, isn't it interesting that they were given 40 years from the start of Jesus ministry to the destruction of the temple?
Coincidence?
Maybe. You only know it was
minimum 40 years.
The ribbon didn't turn white an unmentioned number of times before He died.
Maybe the ribbon didn't turn white the year before He died. Then it would have been 41 years.
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 12, 2010, 07:01:49 PM
Quote from: Molly on July 12, 2010, 04:55:44 PMNow that I think about it, isn't it interesting that they were given 40 years from the start of Jesus ministry to the destruction of the temple?
Coincidence?
Maybe. You only know it was minimum 40 years.
The ribbon didn't turn white an unmentioned number of times before He died.
Maybe the ribbon didn't turn white the year before He died. Then it would have been 41 years.
I only know what the Rabbi himself tells me, that
40 years prior to the destruction of the second Temple this auspicious miracle endedand also that
The Talmud bears record to this spiritual decay, and declares that this national tragedy reached its height exactly 40 years prior to the destruction of the second TempleHe's the one that picked 40 years, not me.
The second point, however, presents a far more serious problem for Christian apologists. If in fact, as the "Hebrew-Christian" insisted, the reason that the scarlet wool strip did not turn white was "because Jesus was the final atonement," and there was thus no longer any need for animal sacrifices, why then are the same animal sacrifices coming back? Christians have very little room to maneuver on this matter because the Bible is quite clear that the animal sacrificial system will be restored in the messianic age. In fact, in the last nine chapters of the Book of Ezekiel, the prophet describes in vivid detail the elaborate rituals and lofty ceremonies which will occur in the third and final messianic Temple. In chapters 43-44, Ezekiel clearly states that the animal sacrifices will be reinstated in their full glory. This simple fact should at least give Hebrew-Christians pause before they boldly proclaim that the transformation of the scarlet strip of wool had ceased due to the fact that God had done away with animal sacrifices.
Is that true? If so what about the perfect Lamb?
:cloud9: Personally, I take that as when the sons of God are manifested walking AS Him in the earth, the carnal beastly natures will be brought to this 3rd temple of His body, to be consumed by the fire of God. He makes His minsters to be flames of fire. My :2c: Blessings....
Interesting thanks for that whitewings I will look it up. The book of Daniel also talks about the Jews re establishing the sacrifical ceremonies and temple.
Quote from: thinktank on July 12, 2010, 07:56:58 PM
Interesting thanks for that whitewings I will look it up. The book of Daniel also talks about the Jews re establishing the sacrifical ceremonies and temple.
http://www.jewishveg.com/schwartz/faq_sacrifices.html => Animal sacrifice was
never commanded by Father.
http://www.ravkooktorah.org/VAYIKRA58.htm => Grain only
Quote from: wwIn chapters 43-44, Ezekiel clearly states that the animal sacrifices will be reinstated in their full glory. This simple fact should at least give Hebrew-Christians pause before they boldly proclaim that the transformation of the scarlet strip of wool had ceased due to the fact that God had done away with animal sacrifices.
John 2:21
But he spake of the temple of his body.
1 Corinthians 3:16
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?4As the glory of the LORD entered the temple by the gate facing east, 5 the Spirit lifted me up and brought me into the inner court; and behold, the glory of the LORD filled the temple.
--Eze 43
Does this sound like an earthly, literal Temple?
1Then he brought me back to the door of the temple, and behold, water was issuing from below the threshold of the temple toward the east (for the temple faced east). The water was flowing down from below the south end of the threshold of the temple, south of the altar. 2Then he brought me out by way of the north gate and led me around on the outside to the outer gate that faces toward the east; and behold, the water was trickling out on the south side.
3Going on eastward with a measuring line in his hand, the man measured a thousand cubits, and then led me through the water, and it was ankle-deep. 4Again he measured a thousand, and led me through the water, and it was knee-deep. Again he measured a thousand, and led me through the water, and it was waist-deep. 5Again he measured a thousand, and it was a river that I could not pass through, for the water had risen. It was deep enough to swim in, a river that could not be passed through. 6And he said to me, "Son of man, have you seen this?"
--Eze 47
Or does it sound more like the New Jerusalem described in Rev 22?
1Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him. 4 They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5And night will be no more. They will need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever.--Rev 22
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 12, 2010, 08:12:38 PM
Quote from: thinktank on July 12, 2010, 07:56:58 PM
Interesting thanks for that whitewings I will look it up. The book of Daniel also talks about the Jews re establishing the sacrifical ceremonies and temple.
http://www.jewishveg.com/schwartz/faq_sacrifices.html => Animal sacrifice was never commanded by Father.
http://www.ravkooktorah.org/VAYIKRA58.htm => Grain only
Quote from: ww
In chapters 43-44, Ezekiel clearly states that the animal sacrifices will be reinstated in their full glory
You said it, not me. I simply said the temple will be restored, but thanks for clearing that it may not be animal sacrifice, for that is what I assumed it would be, but it could well be just grain.
6For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
7But they like men have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me.
--Hosea 6
Molly, TT,
I just quoted the Rabbi from David's URL (, and would like an opion based on Scripture).
The Jews may be wrong about many things but they certainly aren't OT noobs without understanding....
BTW it's said that the Jews are currently making all kind of things needed in the Temple.
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 12, 2010, 08:58:08 PM
Molly, TT,
I just quoted the Rabbi from David's URL (, and would like an opion based on Scripture).
The Jews may be wrong about many things but they certainly aren't OT noobs without understanding....
BTW it's said that the Jews are currently making all kind of things needed in the Temple.
All of it represents Jesus, all the way back to Cain and Abel. We are told that Abel is righteous, meaning he had knowledge of God, meaning he had Christ. It is Christ that Abel offers to the Father.
Cain is told what to do, but does he listen? No. Instead he listens to his own evil heart and kills his brother--another innocent lamb slain.
You cannot possibly understand the Old Testament without the New Testament where all is revealed.
They better get a good architect for that Temple because they are going to have to do some pretty fancy things with waterworks.
Quote from: Molly on July 12, 2010, 09:02:59 PMThey better get a good architect for that Temple because they are going to have to do some pretty fancy things with waterworks.
Just a pipe to the spring and it's done.
If the spring still exists...
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 12, 2010, 09:09:56 PM
Quote from: Molly on July 12, 2010, 09:02:59 PMThey better get a good architect for that Temple because they are going to have to do some pretty fancy things with waterworks.
Just a pipe to the spring and it's done.
If the spring still exists...
No, this is very specific--so much coming out of each gate with a river you cannot swim through coming out of the east gate. Then measure by cubits, each thousand it goes up to the ankle and up to the waist--whose ankle? whose waist? Does anyone know how tall Ezekiel was?
It's very complicated. I've played with water a lot and it's not so easy to control. :laughing7:
Got a link?
QuoteDoes anyone know how tall Ezekiel was?
Yes.
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 12, 2010, 09:24:12 PM
Got a link?
QuoteDoes anyone know how tall Ezekiel was?
Yes.
A link to what? If they try to rebuild that Temple, the first thing I will demand is to see the architecture for the waterworks, and next I will demand how they identify the sons of Zadok, because otherwise they will have no priests.
I could have more demands, too.
And the name of the city from that time on shall be, The LORD Is There."--Eze 48
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 12, 2010, 09:53:10 PM
Quote from: Molly on July 12, 2010, 09:28:37 PMA link to what?
Specs of the waterworks.
1Then he brought me back to the door of the temple, and behold, water was issuing from below the threshold of the temple toward the east (for the temple faced east). The water was flowing down from below the south end of the threshold of the temple, south of the altar. 2Then he brought me out by way of the north gate and led me around on the outside to the outer gate that faces toward the east; and behold, the water was trickling out on the south side.
3Going on eastward with a measuring line in his hand, the man measured a thousand cubits, and then led me through the water, and it was ankle-deep. 4Again he measured a thousand, and led me through the water, and it was knee-deep. Again he measured a thousand, and led me through the water, and it was waist-deep. 5Again he measured a thousand, and it was a river that I could not pass through, for the water had risen. It was deep enough to swim in, a river that could not be passed through. 6And he said to me, "Son of man, have you seen this?"
--Eze 47
:cloud9: They're going to use the cohains....many of the people named "Cohen" descended from the priests. They are doing a genetic search now; they have identified a "cohain" marker in their DNA, apparently from some that could literally trace their ancestry back to that time. They keep good records. Blessings...
There is also marker found that traces back to Adam and Eve (or Noach?)
Quote from: Cardinal on July 13, 2010, 08:00:32 AM
:cloud9: They're going to use the cohains....many of the people named "Cohen" descended from the priests. They are doing a genetic search now; they have identified a "cohain" marker in their DNA, apparently from some that could literally trace their ancestry back to that time. They keep good records. Blessings...
He says the Levites shall not come before his face, only the sons of Zadok who remained faithful.
So how do we identify the sons of Zadok?
10And the Levites that are gone away far from me, when Israel went astray, which went astray away from me after their idols; they shall even bear their iniquity.
11Yet they shall be ministers in my sanctuary, having charge at the gates of the house, and ministering to the house: they shall slay the burnt offering and the sacrifice for the people, and they shall stand before them to minister unto them.
12Because they ministered unto them before their idols, and caused the house of Israel to fall into iniquity; therefore have I lifted up mine hand against them, saith the Lord GOD, and they shall bear their iniquity.
13And
they shall not come near unto me, to do the office of a priest unto me, nor to come near to any of my holy things, in the most holy place: but they shall bear their shame, and their abominations which they have committed.
14But I will make them keepers of the charge of the house, for all the service thereof, and for all that shall be done therein.
15But the priests the Levites,
the sons of Zadok, that kept the charge of my sanctuary when the children of Israel went astray from me, they shall come near to me to minister unto me, and they shall stand before me to offer unto me the fat and the blood, saith the Lord GOD:
16They shall enter into my sanctuary, and they shall come near to my table, to minister unto me, and they shall keep my charge.
--Eze 44
:cloud9: They won't be hard to identify when He's finished with them.....Melchi-ZADOK. SONS of "Zadok". Blessings...
Zadok or Zadoq (Hebrew: צדוק, Tzadok meaning "Righteous")
The Sons of Righteousness
wow. LOL! I missed the connection.
Jeremiah 23:6
In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
H6664
צדק
tsedeq
tseh'-dek
From H6663; the right (natural, moral or legal); also (abstractly) equity or (figuratively) prosperity: - X even, (X that which is altogether) just (-ice), ([un-]) right (-eous) (cause, -ly, -ness).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fO17bVoiYd0&feature=related
http://www.israeltoday.co.il/default.aspx?tabid=128&view=item&idx=1347
The Temple in 3 D (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B37Mp6mhs3A)
Interactive 3D model (http://sephirot.com/temple.html#downlo)
Jerusalem:The Building Of The Third Temple (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdX_Ee7PiF8&feature=related)
I hope their not building it already :mshock:
Why you hope not?
The relics are finished (I think).
Because it's one of the signs of the end times.
Quote from: thinktank on July 14, 2010, 08:15:08 PMBecause it's one of the signs of the end times.
I know.
So you are a Christian that doesn't want to meet Christ :laughing7:
:cloud9: They've already got the articles for it made, I think. They send out updates. It doesn't bother me if they build one; it just means they'll all be in one place when God sends out the sons to bring them in. :winkgrin: Blessings...
Let them have their burnt offerings then--
10But the Levites who went far from me, going astray from me after their idols when Israel went astray, shall bear their punishment. 11They shall be ministers in my sanctuary, having oversight at the gates of the temple and ministering in the temple. They shall slaughter the burnt offering and the sacrifice for the people, and they shall stand before the people, to minister to them. 12Because they ministered to them before their idols and became a stumbling block of iniquity to the house of Israel, therefore I have sworn concerning them, declares the Lord GOD, and they shall bear their punishment. 13They shall not come near to me, to serve me as priest, nor come near any of my holy things and the things that are most holy, but they shall bear their shame and the abominations that they have committed. 14Yet I will appoint them to keep charge of the temple, to do all its service and all that is to be done in it.
--Eze 44
Is there a "nice" way to sabotage their efforts :laughing7:
What!, in some ways i'm helping Christ by preventing the antichrist from appearing :laughing7:
:icon_queen: Somehow I don't think he's convinced :mshock:
:cloud9: They've already borne their punishment....
@ TT....the nations around them are trying to sabotage it big time; by wiping them off the face of the earth.
Quote from: Cardinal on July 14, 2010, 09:20:06 PM
:cloud9: They've already borne their punishment....
@ TT....the nations around them are trying to sabotage it big time; by wiping them off the face of the earth.
The temple shall be rebuilt even in perilious times
Jesus
I think he was the one who said that.
Quote from: Cardinal on July 14, 2010, 09:20:06 PM
:cloud9: They've already borne their punishment....
Not yet. They are looking for their red heifer. They want to reinstate animal sacrifice.
Sunday, March 7, 2010
A Kosher Red Heifer is Alive and Well in Israel!
http://the70thweek.blogspot.com/2010/03/kosher-red-heifer-is-alive-and-well-in.html
Of course, if they touch one rock on that temple mount, the whole world will explode into WW3....but that doesn't seem to bother them...
Quote from: thinktank on July 14, 2010, 09:17:43 PM
Is there a "nice" way to sabotage their efforts :laughing7:
Hire a few muslims :icon_king:
QuoteWhat!, in some ways i'm helping Christ by preventing the antichrist from appearing :laughing7:
Then there is no resurrection :laughing7:
Quote from: Molly on July 14, 2010, 09:27:28 PMOf course, if they touch one rock on that temple mount, the whole world will explode into WW3....but that doesn't seem to bother them...
IF they think the correct place is near the mosque.
And I'm not sure of that. They already misled Constantine in building his church in a 'fake spot'....
BTW that was done by a Jew called... Judas. :winkgrin:
Quote from: Molly on July 14, 2010, 09:27:28 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on July 14, 2010, 09:20:06 PM
:cloud9: They've already borne their punishment....
Not yet. They are looking for their red heifer. They want to reinstate animal sacrifice.
Sunday, March 7, 2010
A Kosher Red Heifer is Alive and Well in Israel!
http://the70thweek.blogspot.com/2010/03/kosher-red-heifer-is-alive-and-well-in.html
Of course, if they touch one rock on that temple mount, the whole world will explode into WW3....but that doesn't seem to bother them...
They have to sacrifice it when it's 3 years old!. I would have thought a temple would take years to build. How long do you think it will take to build this temple, if they had all the materials?
Quote from: thinktank on July 14, 2010, 09:38:33 PM
Quote from: Molly on July 14, 2010, 09:27:28 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on July 14, 2010, 09:20:06 PM
:cloud9: They've already borne their punishment....
Not yet. They are looking for their red heifer. They want to reinstate animal sacrifice.
Sunday, March 7, 2010
A Kosher Red Heifer is Alive and Well in Israel!
http://the70thweek.blogspot.com/2010/03/kosher-red-heifer-is-alive-and-well-in.html
Of course, if they touch one rock on that temple mount, the whole world will explode into WW3....but that doesn't seem to bother them...
They have to sacrifice it when it's 3 years old!. I would have thought a temple would take years to build. How long do you think it will take to build this temple, if they had all the materials?
hmm...sounds like the heifer will be almost 3 years old right around Dec22.2012. :laughing7:
The Temple I'm reading about in Ezekiel is completely supernatural.
TT,
Just look at a building of the same size. Takes at least a year or more.
But that's just steel and concrete. I think the Temple will be with bricks.
And many muslims stealing the bricks :winkgrin:
The Temple was really huge. The curtain that what torn was something like 82 feet high and 30 feet wide.
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 14, 2010, 09:42:54 PM
TT,
Just look at a building of the same size. Takes at least a year or more.
But that's just steel and concrete. I think the Temple will be with bricks.
And many muslims stealing the bricks :winkgrin:
The Temple was really huge. The curtain that what torn was something like 82 feet high and 30 feet wide.
Don't forget the waterworks.
:cloud9: testing...I've posted 3 times to this and nothing shows... :mshock: twilight zone....
Quote from: Cardinal on July 14, 2010, 09:45:49 PM
:cloud9: testing...I've posted 3 times to this and nothing shows... :mshock: twilight zone....
That happens to me all the time. Then people wonder why I don't answer them...
Keep posting. I want to hear what you have to say.
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 14, 2010, 09:42:54 PM
TT,
Just look at a building of the same size. Takes at least a year or more.
But that's just steel and concrete. I think the Temple will be with bricks.
And many muslims stealing the bricks :winkgrin:
The Temple was really huge. The curtain that what torn was something like 82 feet high and 30 feet wide.
Plain old bricks :sigh: I thought they use something a bit more exotic, such as marble, gold.
:cloud9: Weird.....it's only happened to me the last 3 days or so.
Well, what I said was.......God has been busy preparing His own red heifers (female > souls, washed in the blood) to lay down their lives to remove the contamination of death from the body. So of course, the Jews are only doing what they are seeing thru a glass darkly (darkened soul), their head do.
The body can only do what it sees the head do. We were made to be one with the Head, if we are pressing into the fullness. Blessings...
:cloud9: I don't think they'll use bricks.....the last temple was a marvel of the whole world. The top stones were white in appearance and it glistened in the sun, was so huge it could be seen from the ports. They'll want the new one to be as beautiful or better if they can figure out a way. Blessings...
Quote from: thinktank on July 14, 2010, 09:49:13 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 14, 2010, 09:42:54 PM
TT,
Just look at a building of the same size. Takes at least a year or more.
But that's just steel and concrete. I think the Temple will be with bricks.
And many muslims stealing the bricks :winkgrin:
The Temple was really huge. The curtain that what torn was something like 82 feet high and 30 feet wide.
Plain old bricks :sigh: I thought they use something a bit more exotic, such as marble, gold.
Bricks + wood + marble + gold + silver + ...
/edit by Molly
AND WATERWORKS!
Quote from: thinktank on July 14, 2010, 09:49:13 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 14, 2010, 09:42:54 PM
TT,
Just look at a building of the same size. Takes at least a year or more.
But that's just steel and concrete. I think the Temple will be with bricks.
And many muslims stealing the bricks :winkgrin:
The Temple was really huge. The curtain that what torn was something like 82 feet high and 30 feet wide.
Plain old bricks :sigh: I thought they use something a bit more exotic, such as marble, gold.
Oddly enough, I can't seem to find any description of the materials it is made from, just lots of passages of how every square inch is measured.
What does it mean spiritually to be measured?
3When he brought me there, behold, there was a man whose appearance was like bronze, with a linen cord and a measuring reed in his hand.
And he was standing in the gateway. 4And the man said to me, "Son of man, look with your eyes, and hear with your ears, and set your heart upon all that I shall show you, for you were brought here in order that I might show it to you. Declare all that you see to the house of Israel."--Eze 40
:cloud9: We are to come up in growth to the full measure of Christ. Also, the Word is the level, the Spirit is the plumbline. It takes both to come to this "full measure". Blessings....
Quote from: Molly on July 14, 2010, 09:56:57 PMOddly enough, I can't seem to find any description of the materials it is made from, just lots of passages of how every square inch is measured.
The Jews have more than the Tanach (our OT). I'm sure they have very detailed descriptions.
Lots of things where gold plated for example.
Quote from: Cardinal on July 14, 2010, 09:55:08 PM
:cloud9: I don't think they'll use bricks.....the last temple was a marvel of the whole world. The top stones were white in appearance and it glistened in the sun, was so huge it could be seen from the ports.
So where the pyramids in Egypt. It just eroded away.... (or was stolen)
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 19, 2010, 02:07:20 PM
Quote from: Molly on July 14, 2010, 09:56:57 PMOddly enough, I can't seem to find any description of the materials it is made from, just lots of passages of how every square inch is measured.
The Jews have more than the Tanach (our OT). I'm sure they have very detailed descriptions.
Lots of things where gold plated for example.
Phooey on that. It's supernatural, I tell you.
Everything points to the Temple being a troop of people.
And, the Levite priests will be watching it all from the outside looking in.
12Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
13He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. --Rev 3
Quote from: Molly on July 19, 2010, 02:24:15 PM
Phooey on that. It's supernatural, I tell you.
Everything points to the Temple being a troop of people.
So there never was a Temple. Just a group of people standing on a hill... :mshock:
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 19, 2010, 03:09:09 PM
Quote from: Molly on July 19, 2010, 02:24:15 PM
Phooey on that. It's supernatural, I tell you.
Everything points to the Temple being a troop of people.
So there never was a Temple. Just a group of people standing on a hill... :mshock:
The Temple was always a shadow of the real thing.
Matthew 5:14
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
Yeah, but don't you think the Jews are planing a real Temple?
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 19, 2010, 03:31:45 PM
Yeah, but don't you think the Jews are planing a real Temple?
I guess...until they meet the real thing...
Zechariah 12:10
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Revelation 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
"I guess...until they meet the real thing..."
lol, that's a classic Molly!
lol
God surrounded that Temple mount with Muslims and put a mosque on top of the very thing for good reason.
There will never be another temple there.
We are His Temple.
:2c:
Quote from: Molly on July 19, 2010, 02:24:15 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 19, 2010, 02:07:20 PM
Quote from: Molly on July 14, 2010, 09:56:57 PMOddly enough, I can't seem to find any description of the materials it is made from, just lots of passages of how every square inch is measured.
The Jews have more than the Tanach (our OT). I'm sure they have very detailed descriptions.
Lots of things where gold plated for example.
Phooey on that. It's supernatural, I tell you.
Everything points to the Temple being a troop of people.
And, the Levite priests will be watching it all from the outside looking in.
12Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
13He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
--Rev 3
A breath of fresh air accompanied with a lucid moment.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 19, 2010, 04:28:58 PM
God surrounded that Temple mount with Muslims and put a mosque on top of the very thing
Don't be so sure of that....
Molly,
"A breath of fresh air accompanied with a lucid moment."
That is meant with the utmost good intention and not to imply at anytime, otherwise! :HeartThrob:
An overall statement it is; about the overall condition of things.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 19, 2010, 04:28:58 PM
God surrounded that Temple mount with Muslims and put a mosque on top of the very thing for good reason.
There will never be another temple there.
We are His Temple.
:2c:
:thumbsup:
:cloud9: They may never get it built, but not for lack of trying. They would have already started if not for that mosque and the fact it would bring WW3 to destroy it, something they very much don't want to do, but would love to destroy the mosque. Believe me, if they are attacked it's probably second on their hit list, right after whatever direction the attack came from.
The Muslims know this, they are just deciding who the "sacrificial" nation is to attack first. Once the mosque is destroyed, their religious zealots in the other countries will have more of a "reason" to get involved and attack. Bad news for Europe now, since they have allowed so many of them immigration. They are a veritable trojan horse. Blessings...
But what if the real place of the Temple is not at that place.....?
(there are reasons to believe that)
:cloud9: Well, they think it is, the stones are there; the Muslims think it is, that's why they built theirs over it.....
So you deny?
KJVMat 24:1-2 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
KJVMar 13:1-2 And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!
2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
That would mean Jesus was wrong because there are 10000 (so called) remaining stones counted.
Another thing is how could Jesus/centurion see the temple curtan (east) if the temple was as the place of the mosque?
Also consider the "The Camp" thread which is closely connected
That are just a few parts of the puzzle. But that puzzle requires looking into a lot of things that people on TM have zero interest in. So I won't bother you with it and just say: Don't be so sure :winkgrin:
One thing though, when this temple gets built it doesn't mean the antichrist will appear soon. For before that the city will be attacked from the north, the walls destroyed and streets, possibly the temple gets destroyed again. During this time the Israelis call upon the name of Jesus to be saved from the army, then God will destroy the army, then there will be a time of peace and then after a while, messiah will be renounced and Israel turns into mystery babylon, then the abomination appears.
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 19, 2010, 08:23:48 PM
So you deny?
KJVMat 24:1-2 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
KJVMar 13:1-2 And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!
2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
That would mean Jesus was wrong because there are 10000 (so called) remaining stones counted.
Another thing is how could Jesus/centurion see the temple curtan (east) if the temple was as the place of the mosque?
Also consider the "The Camp" thread which is closely connected
That are just a few parts of the puzzle. But that puzzle requires looking into a lot of things that people on TM have zero interest in. So I won't bother you with it and just say: Don't be so sure :winkgrin:
:cloud9: I'm not denying......I haven't researched it. If you have, then share.... :thumbsup:
Quote from: wwAnother thing is how could Jesus/centurion see the temple curtan (east) if the temple was as the place of the mosque?
Did they see it? Or is it just related that it happened? I thought the curtain was rent when Jesus died. It would have happened inside the Temple, so no one outside would have seen it.
QuoteThat are just a few parts of the puzzle. But that puzzle requires looking into a lot of things that people on TM have zero interest in. So I won't bother you with it and just say: Don't be so sure
I love puzzles. Tell us.
If they don't want to build it there, why are they always kissing that wall?
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 19, 2010, 04:28:58 PM
God surrounded that Temple mount with Muslims and put a mosque on top of the very thing for good reason.
There will never be another temple there.
We are His Temple.
:2c:
Yes but the jews have a different mindset, they are still waiting for their messiah. According to prophecy they will rebuild the temple for the messiah, which has not been done and is not being done. So to me if they build a temple perhaps the mosque will be destroyed by invading armies, which is prophesied in Daniel, that the walls will be rebuilt and streets.
Quote from: Molly on July 19, 2010, 09:29:26 PM
Quote from: wwAnother thing is how could Jesus/centurion see the temple curtan (east) if the temple was as the place of the mosque?
Did they see it? Or is it just related that it happened? I thought the curtain was rent when Jesus died. It would have happened inside the Temple, so no one outside would have seen it.
Those curtains where 82x30 feet.
They where hanging in a "portal' with doors.
Facing east (east gate of Eden where Adam and Eve where kicked out.
KJVMat 27:51-54 51 And, behold, the
veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
54 Now when
the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus,
saw the earthquake, and those
things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.
QuoteThat are just a few parts of the puzzle. But that puzzle requires looking into a lot of things that people on TM have zero interest in. So I won't bother you with it and just say: Don't be so sure
QuoteI love puzzles. Tell us
.The camp was 2000 cubits radius from a center point in the Temple. Just outside that radius was the 3rd altar on which the Red Heifer (+David +Abrahams son) was sacrificed. Jesus was killed (stoned!) there.
So there is a line of sight (with requiremenst of hight) And a 2000 cubit distance. Temple is west of the crucifixion spot. Plus Molly the valley of Kidron. Your beloved waterworks :winkgrin: This and historical accounts that for example state that the Jews did 2 attempts in the 4th centurie to rebuild theTemple. But not at the dome.
QuoteIf they don't want to build it there, why are they always kissing that wall?
The wall of Fort Antonia. The dome is build on the foundation of the Roman fortress.
The Rock in the dome is:
KJVJoh 19:13 When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment seat in a place that is called the
Pavement, but in the Hebrew, Gabbatha.
There are both Muslim and Christian inscription on the dome mosque. There is so much more. But most not in the Bible.
I'm just halfway this stuff. So not all is exactly clear yet.
PS the whole Temple:
"The word temple (heiron, lit., sacred place) signifies the whole compass of the sacred enclosure, with its porticos, courts, and other subordinate buildings; and should be carefully distinguished from the other word, naos, also rendered temple, which means the temple itself — the "Holy Place" and the "Holy of Holies." When we read, for instance, of Christ teaching in the temple (heiron) we must refer it to one of the temple-porches [outer colonnades]. So it is from the heiron, the court of the Gentiles, that Christ expels the money-changers and cattle-merchants"( Vincent, Word Studies in the New Testament, Vol. I., p.50).
:cloud9: You're really digging deep aren't you WW? PTL :thumbsup:
(http://www.askelm.com/images/templebig.jpg)
Left half is the Jewish Temple complex. Highest point in that section is the actual Temple. The red bit is the curtain.
The left half is Fort Antonia. That wher Pilate was at that time. The center building is a Roma temple.
Just left of that temple two parallel buildings with red roofs.
Between those building was the rock/pavement Jesus was standing on when being Judged by Pilate.
And there is the dome now.
Listen (http://www.askelm.com/audio/real/TrueTempleSite.mp3)
Almost forgot :2c:
Quote from: wwThose curtains where 82x30 feet.
They where hanging is a "portal' with doors.
Facing east (east gate of Eden where Adam and Eve where kicked out.
So this is symbolic of the barrier to the entrance to Eden. The curtains have cherubim on them, don't they? -- Equating the Most Holy Place with the garden of Eden--the place where Adam walked with God.
24So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.--Gen 3
QuoteThe camp was 2000 cubits radius from a center point in the Temple. Just outside that radius was the 3rd altar on which the Red Heifer (+David +Abrahams son) was sacrificed. Jesus was killed (stoned!) there.
That would make sense that Jesus was killed outside the camp as were the sacrificial animals which are a shadow of what was to come. So are you saying that we have to measure out 2000 cubits from the site of the crucifixion to find the center for the new Temple?
Here's an interesting article I just found--which locates that spot--
Expanded Internet Edition - April 1, 1992
Updated Information
on the Crucifixion of Jesusby Ernest L. Martin, Ph.D., 1992
Since the publication of my book "Secrets of Golgotha" in the Spring of 1988, there has been a steady flow of new information which shows that the crucifixion of Jesus took place on the Mount of Olives. Some of the evidence has come from other scholars who have seen the fact that Jesus was executed somewhere near the summit of Olivet. A great deal has also been arrived at by further research of my own. What is emerging is
real evidence that the Church of the Holy Sepulchre and the Garden Tomb located in Jerusalem are nowhere near the proper spot where the actual crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus took place. This fact has revolutionary consequences associated with it. This is because the Roman Catholic Church, the Greek Orthodox Church, the Armenian Orthodox churches for the past 1660 years have generally accepted the area associated with the Church of the Holy Sepulchre as the crucifixion site. Even classical historians have thought the site has most of the historical credentials to justify its acceptance by the scholarly world. But this new evidence shows that the Constantinian Church is thoroughly wrong.
The Bible and history plainly establish that the Mount of Olives is the real place of the crucifixion. This new Historical Report has further evidence to prove this conclusion.
But my book shows from the New Testament and early Jewish records that the southern summit of the Mount of Olives near
the altar "without the sanctuary" where the Red Heifer was burnt to ashes (Ezekiel 43:21) has far greater credentials for being the site. The first point to notice is that the burning of the Red Heifer and Jesus' crucifixion were
symbolically connected in a precise way by Christians who lived during the period of Herod's Temple. The author of the Book of Hebrews (about AD. 61) stated that Jesus was a 'sin offering" for the world and that his sin-atoning death epitomized the symbolic role of all the sin offerings sacrificed at the Temple (Hebrews 10:8-14).
The major sin offerings were burnt to ashes at an altar region
east of the Temple near the top of the Mount of Olives. Besides that, all of the ashes of the other sacrifices offered at the Altar of Burnt Offering in the Temple itself were deposited at the same altar east of the Temple on Olivet (Leviticus 4:12:6:11).
The author of Hebrews also connected the ashes of the Red Heifer (which were mixed with pure spring water) with the sprinkling of the blood of Jesus which occurred at the precise time of his crucifixion (9:13,14). And particularly note this point. In the Letter of Barnabas (written by a person from Jerusalem about A.D.90), the author stated that the Red Heifer in Christian circles was reckoned as Jesus. "The calf is Jesus: the sinful men offering it are those who led him to the slaughter (8:2)." Remarkably, very few Christian historians have asked: "Where was this Red Heifer altar?"As explained in my book "Secrets of Golgotha," the early Jewish records found in the Mishnah plainly state that
the Red Heifer altar was located directly east of the Temple that existed in Jesus' time and that it was just shy of the summit of the Mount of Olives (Middoth 1:3; 2:4; Yoma 7:2; along with the Talmud in Yoma 68a and Zebahim 105b). And here we find the author of the Letter of Barnabas directly stating that "the calf (heifer] is Jesus" and that "the sinful men offering it are those who led him [Jesusl to the slaughter" (8:2). It is well known in Jewish circles that the priests did indeed lead the heifer from the Temple on Mount Moriah eastward across a double tiered arched bridge (called the Bridge of the Red Heifer) to an altar just outside the camp near the summit of Olivet. This is where they sacrificed and burnt to ashes the Red Heifer. This first century identification of Jesus with the Red Heifer is clear proof that early Jewish Christians connected the sacrifice of the heifer on the summit of Olivet with the death of Jesus which took place in the same vicinity. But no sacrifices of the Temple were ever connected with the western area of the "Holy Sepulchre."
As an example, note a further geographical reference in the Book of Hebrews associating the sin offerings of the Temple with the crucifixion of Jesus. The author stated that Jesus carried his reproach (the cross-piece for his crucifixion) to
an altar located "outside the gate," even "outside the camp" (Hebrews 13:10-14). There was the literal altar on Olivet that matches the author's illustration, Indeed, in this case the author used the Tabernacle of Moses as his standard of reference (the Jewish authorities did the same thing in the Mishnah about a century later). It is important to note that the Tabernacle only had eastern gates. By using the Tabernacle as a standard, this points to the "gate" through which Jesus went to his crucifixion as being
the east gate in the outer wall surrounding the Temple. Interestingly, this eastern gate was the same gate through which the major sin offerings and the Red Heifer were taken to Olivet. The roadway through that eastern gate was designed specifically by the Jewish authorities to lead directly to the altar "outside the camp" where the Red Heifer was burnt to ashes. Early Jewish Christians were keenly aware of these ritualistic connections of the sin offerings with the death of Jesus. Geographically, these historical and biblical texts about his crucifixion direct us to Olivet.
Furthermore, this Red Heifer altar was located just "outside the camp" which was
at least 2000 cubits east of the Hall of the Sanhedrin then situated at the Chamber of Hewn Stones in the Temple, located on the left side of the Altar of Burnt Offering (Middoth 5:4; Sanhedrin 11:2; Yoma 25a). Indeed, just before Jesus was crucified, he was actually condemned to be executed while he stood before the Sanhedrin in the Chamber of Hewn Stones on the Temple Mount (see Shabbath l5a and Rosh ha-Shanah 31a,b). Since it was then the Passover season, the chief priest (the president of the Sanhedrin who was Caiaphas) and his deputy (Annas, the Sagan) were required to be resident in their quarters within the precincts of the Temple. They were then living in their official "houses" which were located in the Temple compound itself (Middoth 5:4; Encyclopaedia Judaica iii.991). This is when the top priestly authorities left their own private houses (no doubt located on the aristocratic southwest hill of Jerusalem) and they took up residence within the Temple itself.
There were special times in the Jewish ecclesiastical year when residence within the Temple was essential for the High Priest and his deputy. For the seven days prior to offering the Red Heifer, the High Priest had to stay in his Temple "house" called the "House of Stone" (Parah 3:1). For the seven days prior to the Day of Atonement the High Priest had to reside within his "house" on the Temple Mount (Yoma 1:1). Though Josephus did not mention the Temple residency of the priests, he did state that such attendance at the Temple was a requirement for weekly Sabbaths, new moons and annual festivals (War V.230). Since Jesus was judged by the Jewish authorities at the Passover season, Caiaphas and Annas were not at their private homes during Jesus' interrogation. Jesus was judged by the chief priests and condemned by the Sanhedrin while all parties were within the Temple enclosure.
From the Christian point of view, this meant that Jesus was judged to die in his own Father's House. He was sentenced to die "in the presence of God" who symbolically dwelt in the Holy of Holies.After his judgment by the Sanhedrin on the Temple Mount, Jesus was then taken a short distance to the northwest part of the Temple courtyard where there was a stairway that led to Fort Antonia where Pilate was amongst his troops. Being at Antonia during Passover provided Pilate with a personal command over his resident army in order to properly control the festival crowds in Jerusalem, and especially those within the Temple precincts. After interrogating Jesus, Pilate washed his hands of the matter.
Jesus was then led out of Fort Antonia and through the east gate of the Temple (which was also the east gate of Jerusalem) and taken over the two tiered arched bridge of the Kidron Valley to the summit of Olivet near where the Red Heifer was sacrificed -- a prominent area in Jerusalem.
This eastern area where Jesus was executed was famous for another reason. Jesus was actually crucified in the official area of Jerusalem that was designed for the execution of criminals and in the region that the Jewish authorities believed was the symbolic place where the whole world would one day be judged by God. This was the area directly east of the Temple but located "outside the camp" of Israel (Numbers 15:35).
The limits of the camp were determined in the time of Jesus to be a radius of 2000 cubits (near 3000 feet) from the Court of the Sanhedrin in the Temple (Rosh ha-Shanah 2:5, see also Sanhedrin 1:5 and Shebuoth 2:2 for the authority of the Jewish Supreme Court to set the limits of the camp). This factor alone disqualifies the present sites of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre and the Garden Tomb from being the place of Jesus' crucifixion (even though outside the walls) because both sites were within the official region of the "camp."
The authorized place of execution for criminals in the time of Jesus had to be at least the Temple Mount, but it had to be in a place where the condemned could see the entrances to the Temple located in a westward direction. The biblical examples for judicial sentencing of people for their criminal acts in the time of Moses show they took place on the east side of the Sanctuary. Women accused of adultery were brought for judgment "before the Lord", that is, to the east entrance of the Sanctuary (Numbers 5:16-31). The two sons of Aaron were judged "before the Lord" on the east side of the Sanctuary (Leviticus 10:1-7). Korah and his Levites were also punished east of the Tabernacle (Numbers 16:41-50).
It was important for official judgments to be rendered and executed east of the Temple. This allowed the judgments to be made "in the presence of God," who figuratively faced east from his Sanctuary. Because of this, both the Sanhedrin and the lesser courts at Jerusalem in the time of Jesus were located in the Temple to the east of the Holy Place (Cohen, Everyman's Talmud, 299). It was reckoned that while God was symbolically sitting in the Holy of Holies, he could watch the proceedings going on in the law courts. God supposedly faced east while sitting on his Temple throne. Thus God in a figurative way had a panoramic view of all the ritualistic and judicial duties of his people which were being conducted east of the Sanctuary. This allowed all ceremonies (both religious and secular) to be done "in the presence of God." It is remarkable that many textbooks written by Christian theologians fail to mention the importance of this eastern area in this regard nor do they show the location of the altar "without the Sanctuary" (Ezekiel 43:2 1) where the Red Heifer was sacrificed and where the Day of Atonement sin offerings were burnt.
This eastern location was also significant in judicial matters involving capital crimes. Moses demanded that the place of executions had to be "outside the camp" (Numbers 15:35,36). All ritual sacrifices were offered east of the Sanctuary and in full view of God who figuratively dwelt in the Holy of Holies, and the prime sin offerings were burnt "outside the camp" at the summit of Olivet. And in Jewish practice, heinous criminals were required to be their own "sin offerings" in paying for their sins (without having the benefit of an animal sacrifice as a substitute) (Cohen, ibid., 317).
Since the major sin offerings were sacrificed near the summit of the Mount of Olives, this is why criminals were "sacrificed" as being their own sin offerings in the same vicinity. This is precisely the area where the later Jerusalem church believed Stephen was officially executed by the Sanhedrin (Wilkinson, Egeria's Travels, 185n.1). This was known by the Jews as "the Place of Stoning" (Sanhedrin 6:1,2,3,4). It was just "outside the camp" but in full view of the eastern entrances of the Temple.
The Temple curtain in front of the Holy Place could easily be seen from this prospect and the New Testament shows that when the Temple curtain tore in two at the moment of Jesus' death that the centurion and the others around the crucifixion site viewed that phenomenon taking place (see especially Luke 23:44-47 and Matthew 27:54). From outside the wails of Jerusalem the curtain could only be seen from an elevated site east of the Temple. The area of the "Holy Sepulchre" is disqualified because from there only the back parts of the Temple could be seen. Besides, Josephus shows that the site of the "Holy Sepulchre" was the spot of the Tomb of John Hyrcanus (a respected Jewish king of the Hasmoneans) and such a shrine would never have been selected by the Jewish authorities as a place to execute criminals. But the summit of Olivet is different.
Everything fits perfectly.There are numerous historical reasons for selecting Olivet as the place of Jesus' crucifixion. In the recently translated Temple Scroll, Yadin pointed out that all people bearing religious defilements which prevented them from entering the holy city or the Temple were directed to stay east of the ideal Sanctuary region mentioned in the scroll (Yadin 177). Evil and defiled people (sinners) were kept east of Jerusalem in order to prevent any "winds of evil" from flowing over the holy city from the west. This is one of the reasons the sin offering of the Red Heifer and those of the Day of Atonement (which were to atone for sins) were burnt to ashes in this eastern area "outside the camp" (Leviticus 4:21; 16:27). Yadin suggested that a part of this eastern region which had been put aside for defiled persons was even referred to in the New Testament (e.g. Mark 14:3).
Since all sin offerings were sacrificed (or "executed") east of the Holy Place of the Temple, and the most important ones were sacrificed further east at the Red Heifer altar on Olivet, this easterly region of the Temple became known as the place where God dealt with sin -- where all the sins of the world will be judged. This is one reason why the Kidron Valley separating the Temple from the Mount of Olives became known as the Valley of Jehoshaphat (the valley where "God judges"). Even to this day Jews, Muslims and Christians consider the summit and western slope of Olivet as the ordained place where God will judge all people m the world for their sins. Charles Warren in Hasting's Dictionary of the Bible listed over fourteen Christina authorities (from the deaux Pilgrim onward) who attested to this belief (II.562). This is why it was important, from the Christian point of view, that Jesus died in this eastern region
which was reckoned the judgment place for all mankind. For Jesus to be judged as dying for the sins of all mankind, Christians thought he had to be judged in the place where all mankind were designed to be judged for their sins.Even Muslims (who inherited many traditional beliefs from the Jews and Christians) firmly believe that the summit and the western slope of the Mount of Olives is the judgment area for mankind. The Encyclopaedia Judaica has an interesting excerpt about this. "All the dead will congregate on the Mount of Olives and the angel Gabriel will move paradise to the right of Allah's Throne and hell to its left. All mankind will cross a long bridge suspended from the Mount of Olives to the Temple Mount, which will be narrower than a hair, sharper than a sword, and darker than night. Along this bridge there will be seven arches and at each arch man will be asked to account for his actions" (IX col.1576). This is the Muslim account.
It is easy to see that this traditional Muslim belief is based on the geography of the Temple and the Red Heifer arched bridge over the Kidron Valley that existed in Jesus' time. Indeed, the Hebrew word for the altar where the Red Heifer was burnt to ashes is miphkad (see Ezekiel 43:21).This word means "muster" or the place where people "congregate" or "gather together." And in traditional teaching, it was at or near this site on Olivet where all mankind would "congregate" to be judged. This teaching can be seen in the New Testament itself. When the Son of Man returns with all his angels, he shall sit on his glorious throne and he will then "gather together" before him for judgment all the nations of the world. Those selected to be on his right hand will go into the Kingdom of God while those on his left will go into the fire of perdition (Matthew 25:31-46). The geographical features of this teaching of Jesus (from the Jewish point of view in the first century) shows Jesus sitting on his glorious throne (which was in the Sanctuary of the Temple) and all the nations were then depicted as gathering to western slope of the Mount of Olives to face him for judgment. This allowed them to be judged "in the presence of Jesus." The Book of Revelation also spoke of the wicked being tormented in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb (Revelation 14:10). To be judged "in the presence of God" while he sits on his throne locates these individuals at the summit or on the western slope of the Mount of Olives. Again, this is why, even to Christians,
the region of the Kidron Valley became known as the Valley of Jehoshaphat -- the place for God's judgment.Conversely, the present Church of the Holy Sepulchre as well as the Garden Tomb are located west and north of the Temple. These sites were in no way areas of judgment, as was Olivet and its western slopes. These sites are further disqualified, though they were outside the western and northern walls of Jerusalem, because they were still located within the 2000 cubits' zone of the "camp of Israel" as measured from the Sanhedrin located in the Temple.
In conclusion, Christians in Jerusalem as late as the early fourth century knew that Jesus was crucified and buried on the Mount of Olives. Ernest L. Martin
http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d920401.htm
I had to keep cutting out swatches of that article to get it to post.
Probably better to read the article itself at the link given. :laughing7:
:cloud9: :thumbsup: Good digging, guys.....Molly, I either read that recently, or saw it on TV on some program about the Mt. of Olives. Isn't this just fascinating as more pieces of the puzzle come to light, even in the natural world? Love it, love His Word, love Him. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Molly on July 19, 2010, 11:39:29 PM
Quote from: wwThose curtains where 82x30 feet.
They where hanging is a "portal' with doors.
Facing east (east gate of Eden where Adam and Eve where kicked out.
So this is symbolic of the barrier to the entrance to Eden. The curtains have cherubim on them, don't they?
That I don't know.
I know that earthquake was likely a vulcanic erruption in the dead sea. (fire and smoke is recorded many centuries after Jesus died)
The darkness was possibly smoke. The earthquake broke the 30 ton lintel on which the curtain hung.
The court of the sarhardin (sp?) and the chamber of teh high priest was no longer safe to enter. Jesus judgement was the last ever in that room. (recorded by historians and Jews)
Quote-- Equating the Most Holy Place with the garden of Eden--the place where Adam walked with God.
See also post #82QuoteQuoteThe camp was 2000 cubits radius from a center point in the Temple. Just outside that radius was the 3rd altar on which the Red Heifer (+David +Abrahams son) was sacrificed. Jesus was killed (stoned!) there.
That would make sense that Jesus was killed outside the camp as were the sacrificial animals which are a shadow of what was to come. So are you saying that we have to measure out 2000 cubits from the site of the crucifixion to find the center for the new Temple?
2000+ a little extra.
QuoteSince the publication of my book "Secrets of Golgotha"
I have bought that book. Really :thumbsup:
It seems that many things happend there. David was judged on the rock Jesus stood on. It was also the altar Abraham wanted to sacrifice his son on.
Quote from: Molly on July 19, 2010, 11:44:37 PM
I had to keep cutting out swatches of that article to get it to post.
Probably better to read the article itself at the link given. :laughing7:
Actually I reccomend his books.
The articles are just snippets. The 'flow' of the book is lost.
And listen to the interview.
Last post for today. :lazy:
Judas was was a priest. He threw the 30 pieces of silver in an area of the Temple that was only allowed to be entered by priests.
The money was considred blood money. So Jesus blood was sprinkled in the temple.
Speaking about Judas; there was another Judas in Constantine's time that misled the mother of Constantine. She though she was building a church on the spot Jesus was crucified. But a Judas can never be trusted. But that's a whole other story.... :winkgrin:
:cloud9: Thanks for the meat, WW..... :thumbsup: have a good rest......
Whoa!
Clue 2: The 2000 Cubits
In order to enter the Promised Land, the Israelites had to cross the Jordan River. To do this, God instructed the priests to carry the Ark while maintaining a 2,000-cubit space between them and the rest of the Israelites. When the priests reached the water the river parted so that they could all safely pass through the Jordan River and enter the Promised Land.
The Jordan River represents the wrath of God
The people of Israel represent all the true believers. This doesn't mean that all the Israelites were actually saved, just that they typified the true believers.
The Ark represents Christ. It contained the law of God, of which Christ is the very essence (John 1:14).
The Promised Land represents the Kingdom of God.
It was Christ who stood in the wrath of God for the believers. It was because of this that salvation is possible, that believers can safely pass through His wrath and enter the Kingdom of God.
As the Ark entered the Jordan River, the Israelites were told to follow behind it about 2,000 cubits:
"Yet there shall be a space between you and it, about two thousand cubits by measure: come not near unto it, that ye may know the way by which ye must go: for ye have not passed this way heretofore." (Joshua 3:4)
This could be another time clue. Christ endured the wrath of God in 33 AD so that the believers could safely enter the Kingdom of God. It will be right near the end of time when the believers' salvation is complete and they completely enter the Kingdom of God at the time of the Rapture. It is possible that the 2,000 cubits signify 2,000 years. Notice that the verse says "about 2,000 cubits." Normally, God is very exact in the numbers He gives. When we read the instructions He gave to Noah regarding the ark's construction we find that He gave very precise instructions. He did not say, "Build an ark that is about 300 cubits, give or take." Likewise, He gave very specific instructions about the construction of the Ark of the Covenant.
So when we read the word "about" in Joshua 3:4 that should immediately catch our attention. If this is a time clue we should recognize that, whatever the actual number of years are from 33 AD to the Rapture, it won't be exactly 2,000 or God would not have used the word "about."
This possible time clue agrees with our first clue which pointed to the period we are living in now. We know that we are near the end because Israel is once again a nation. Likewise, we are also about 2,000 years from 33 AD when Christ went to the cross.
Incidentally, this also helps us understand the significance of numbers in the Bible. Most translations take the phrase "2,000 cubits" and reword it as, say, "3,000 feet" since that's about the equivalent of 2,000 cubits and that's a distance we can more readily understand in our day. However, by wording it that way the significance of the number 2,000 in this passage is ignored and this possible time clue is completely lost. The actual distance is not as important spiritually as the number God brought into view.
http://www.the-latter-rain.com/the-2000-cubits.html
:cloud9: Yes.....He went ahead of us beyond the veil, 2 days or 2000 cubits. The 12 stones were left behind in the Jordan. As I said before, He showed me these stones are representative of the souls/stony hearts of men, who stay "behind" at the death of the body.
The 12 tribes names being soulish natures we are comprised of as the natural bread/letter Word/waters below the firmament. They must be changed by being consumed in the light of the Candlestick, passing from glory (terrestrial) to glory (celestial).
The glory of the latter house is to be greater than the former. The soul is the "house"/garment of the spirit. She is to be made a "virgin" (not contaminated anymore by the things of the fleshly), glorified, as that which is within (incorruption) swallows/consumes incorruption. It's the King coming out of His CHAMBERS. A rib, is a CHAMBER. Blessings....
Hi WhiteWings,
Glad you got the book "Secrets of Golgotha". Dr. Martin has many great books. One I highly recommend is "Restoring the Original Bible" it really was worth my time and money. Also "Essentials of New Testament Doctrine".
Dr. Martin did a lot of research on the Temple location and I do believe he has got the location right. He has lots of good articles on his site. It was through him that I learned about the salvation of all. I have read pretty much all of his writings and agree with most of what he has to say. Of course I don't agree 100% with no one, just hardheaded I guess.
I do believe he is right on with this temple stuff.
CHB
Quote from: Molly on July 20, 2010, 01:19:53 AM
"Yet there shall be a space between you and it, about two thousand cubits by measure: come not near unto it, that ye may know the way by which ye must go: for ye have not passed this way heretofore." (Joshua 3:4)
It's also the max Sabbath walk.QuoteNotice that the verse says "about 2,000 cubits." Normally, God is very exact in the numbers He gives.
Quotecome not near unto it
The way I read it is simply say "Keep a
minimum distance of 2000 cubits. aka stay out of the Camp"
Basicly the camp moved as the Ark moved.
Jesus was also crucified+stoned 2000 cubits plus a little extra from the center of the Temple.
The only thing that doesn't fit is that the Tabernacle was not the center of the Temple. Very near but still not the Tabernacle. I wonder if the priests where carrying some other stuff too....?
QuoteSo when we read the word "about" in Joshua 3:4 that should immediately catch our attention. If this is a time clue we should recognize that, whatever the actual number of years are from 33 AD to the Rapture, it won't be exactly 2,000 or God would not have used the word "about."
That's why I found about 2016-2020 :icon_jokercolor:
Quote from: CHB on July 20, 2010, 01:38:08 AM
Hi WhiteWings,
Glad you got the book "Secrets of Golgotha". Dr. Martin has many great books. One I highly recommend is "Restoring the Original Bible" it really was worth my time and money.
I got that one too. Never got past page 5. Couldn't really get into it. Likely because just before I've read 450 pages of Golgotha. I also ordered the Temple book. Was shipped 3+ month ago.... Anyway Amazon refunded my money and resent the book. Should arrive about 28th.
QuoteAlso "Essentials of New Testament Doctrine".
Dr. Martin did a lot of research on the Temple location and I do believe he has got the location right. He has lots of good articles on his site. It was through him that I learned about the salvation of all. I have read pretty much all of his writings and agree with most of what he has to say. Of course I don't agree 100% with no one, just hardheaded I guess.
I do believe he is right on with this temple stuff.
I think so too.
Many here reading might think: Oww, strange. Just and opinion like so many. But those that have read his books know he backs up every claim with lots of historical writings. Secular and none secular. Even Muslim. (remember the dome being Christian at first?)
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 20, 2010, 08:55:42 AM
The only thing that doesn't fit is that the Tabernacle was not the center of the Temple. Very near but still not the Tabernacle. I wonder if the priests where carrying some other stuff too....?
:cloud9: Not following you here..... :dontknow:
Quote from: Cardinal on July 20, 2010, 10:22:54 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 20, 2010, 08:55:42 AM
The only thing that doesn't fit is that the Tabernacle was not the center of the Temple. Very near but still not the Tabernacle. I wonder if the priests where carrying some other stuff too....?
:cloud9: Not following you here..... :dontknow:
According to historical quotes the center of the Temple (the building destroyed in 70 AD) was not in the Tabernacle (not even the Holies of Holies) I have to look it up but from memory the center is located between various items. Candles, Tabernacle, sewbread, etc
So my question is: Did some priests carry the tabernacle and an other one for example a candle.
Like walking in a certain formation.
And the 2000 cubits is measured from somewhere in the middle of that group of priests.
:cloud9: Ok, where you're confusing me, is the tabernacle of Moses and the temple, were two different things.
As for the other comment about the distance, I get that part (I think). I'm assuming since the Levites had charge of the tabernacle and all it's trappings, the 2000 would be from the Levites approximate position in the "caravan" trek thru the wilderness. :dontknow:
Quote from: Cardinal on July 20, 2010, 10:35:53 AM
:cloud9: Ok, where you're confusing me, is the tabernacle of Moses and the temple, were two different things.
Hu? The tabernacle was standing in the Temple... :dontknow:
/EDIT
Reading back I see I'm mixing up Tabernacle and Ark :mblush: :thumbdown: Whoops, double whoops...
wilderness
Sorry, I'm not of a Protestant background.
Would someone please explain to me what the Rapture is?
Thank you.
2.8MB picture of the Temple layout (http://www.logos.com/media/blog/TabernacleTemple.jpg)
8MB pack of related pictures including the above Temple picture. (http://www.logos.com/media/blog/1900BibleAtlasHalfSize.zip)
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 20, 2010, 04:12:07 PM
Sorry, I'm not of a Protestant background.
Would someone please explain to me what the Rapture is?
Thank you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture
I wonder if Jesus has a parable about it.
Because I just don't understand.
That link is frightening.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 20, 2010, 04:21:26 PMI wonder if Jesus has a parable about it.
No parable. A few verses IIRC.
and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air.That happens just before the 7 years of the end-time start.
Like the "Left behind"movies.
What link? Please, thank you.
And for my reference where can I find that Judas was a priest? Thank you again.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 20, 2010, 04:12:07 PM
Sorry, I'm not of a Protestant background.
Would someone please explain to me what the Rapture is?
Thank you.
:cloud9: It's a blessing you don't know what it is. I was nearly stoned to death, when I asked someone in the beginning of my walk, why the word "rapture" was not in the book. :hammerhead:
I was nearly stoned to death again, when I told a whole bible study from a church that there was no rapture, in the way they were being taught. :Shoot:
God had mercy on me and took me out of the churches before they could get up a posse and lynch me. :grave: :winkgrin: Blessings....
Quote from: Beloved Servant on Today at 09:12:07 AM
Sorry, I'm not of a Protestant background.
Would someone please explain to me what the Rapture is?
Thank you.
A theology hoax, as hell and eternal damnation.
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 20, 2010, 07:43:06 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on Today at 09:12:07 AM
Sorry, I'm not of a Protestant background.
Would someone please explain to me what the Rapture is?
Thank you.
A theology hoax, as hell and eternal damnation.
Why do you call it a hoax
is it
A> Because you think its unscriptural
B> It means the antichrist will be true
C>You find the concept ridicolous
D> Something else
A
ok do you think there will be a time of great tribulation?
And if you think that do you think God will protect his people on the earth or will all have to be martyred?
I am interested in your opinion.
Quote from: thinktank on July 20, 2010, 08:07:32 PM
ok do you think there will be a time of great tribulation?
Yes as in Rev 7:14 and I have said to him, `Sir, thou hast known;' and he said to me, `These are those who are coming out of the great tribulation, and they did wash their robes, and they made their robes white in the blood of the Lamb;
And if you think that do you think God will protect his people on the earth or will all have to be martyred?
Yes I will be His witness
I am interested in your opinion.
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 20, 2010, 08:31:45 PM
Quote from: thinktank on July 20, 2010, 08:07:32 PM
ok do you think there will be a time of great tribulation?
Yes as in Rev 7:14 and I have said to him, `Sir, thou hast known;' and he said to me, `These are those who are coming out of the great tribulation, and they did wash their robes, and they made their robes white in the blood of the Lamb;
And if you think that do you think God will protect his people on the earth or will all have to be martyred?
Yes I will be His witness
I am interested in your opinion.
Your ready to die for your faith, that's a great place to be in, regardless of whether there is a rapture.
God bless
1) The Miracle of the ''Lot''
The first of these miracles concerns a random choosing of the ''lot'' which was cast on the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur). The lot chosen determined which of two goats would be "for the Lord" and which goat would be the ''Azazel'' or ''scapegoat.'' During the two hundred years before 30 CE, when the High Priest picked one of two stones, again this selection was governed by chance, and each year the priest would select a black stone as often as a white stone. But for forty years in a row, beginning in 30 CE, the High Priest always picked the black stone! The odds against this happening are astronomical (2 to the 40th power). In other words, the chances of this occurring are 1 in approximately 5,479,548,800 — or about 5.5 billion to one! By comparison, your chances of winning your local state or municipal-run cash Lottery would be much more favorable!
The lot for Azazel, the black stone, contrary to all the laws of chance, came up 40 times in a row from 30 to 70 AD! This was considered a dire event and signified something had fundamentally changed in this Yom Kippur ritual. This casting of lots is also accompanied by yet another miracle which is described next.
[We have been reminded several times by readers that our calculation of the odds as given above falls short of the ture figure. We'll admit to being caught off guard by this and without changing the original text we will provide one of the explanations given to us by e-mail:
"To my estimation, the chance that the High Priest took the black stone is not approximately 5,479,548,800, but since [1/2 * 1/2 * 1/2 ***1/2** ***1/2*****1/2*****1/2*****1/2*****1/2*****1/2*** ....= 1/1024) the chance is ***1/1024*** 1/1024** ***1/1024** * **1/1024 **= 1/ 1,099,511,627,776 Yours sincerely, C. J. S." Any way you look at it, the odds of this happening are far removed from chance.]
2) The Miracle of the Red Strip
The second miracle concerns the crimson strip or cloth tied to the Azazel goat. A portion of this red cloth was also removed from the goat and tied to the Temple door. Each year the red cloth on the Temple door turned white as if to signify the atonement of another Yom Kippur was acceptable to the Lord. This annual event happened until 30 CE when the cloth then remained crimson each year to the time of the Temple's destruction. This undoubtedly caused much stir and consternation among the Jews. This traditional practice is linked to Israel confessing its sins and ceremonially placing this nation's sin upon the Azazel goat. The sin was then removed by this goat's death. Sin was represented by the red color of the cloth (the color of blood). But the cloth remained crimson — that is, Israel's sins were not being pardoned and ''made white.''
As God told Israel through Isaiah the prophet:
''Come, let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet [crimson], they shall be white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as [white ] wool'' (Isaiah 1:18).
The clear indication is that the whole community had lost the Lord's attention in relation to something that occurred in 30 CE The yearly atonement achieved through the typical Yom Kippur observance was not being realized as expected. Atonement apparently was to be gained in some other way. Who or what would provide the atonement for another year?
Concerning the crimson strip—though not mentioned in the Scriptures and long before 30 C.E.—during the 40 years Simon the Righteous was High Priest, a crimson thread which was associated with his person always turned white when he entered the Temple's innermost Holy of Holies. The people noticed this. Also, they noted that ''the lot of the LORD'' (the white lot) came up for 40 straight years during Simon's priesthood. They noticed that the ''lot'' picked by the priests after Simon would sometimes be black, and sometimes white, and that the crimson thread would sometimes turn white, and sometimes not. The Jews came to believe that if the crimson thread turned white, that God approved of the Day of Atonement rituals and that Israel could be assured that God forgave their sins. But after 30 CE, the crimson thread never turned white again for 40 years, till the destruction of the Temple and the cessation of all Temple rituals!
What did the Jewish nation do in 30 CE to merit such a change at Yom Kippur? By some accounts, on April 5, 30 CE (i.e., on the 14th of Nisan, the day of the Passover sacrifice) the Messiah, Yeshua, was cut off from Israel, himself put to death as a sacrifice for sin. To this event there is a transference of the atonement now no longer achieved through the two goats as offered at Yom Kippur. Like an innocent Passover lamb, the Messiah was put to death though no fault was found in Him! But unlike Temple sacrifices or the Yom Kippur events (as detailed above) where sin is only covered over for a time, the Messianic sacrifice comes with the promise of forgiveness of sins through grace given by God to those who accept a personal relationship with Messiah. This is essentially a one time event for each person's lifetime and not a continual series of annual observances and animal sacrifices. The mechanism providing forgiveness of sin changed in 30 CE
3) The Miracle of the Temple Doors
The next miracle, which the Jewish authorities acknowledged, was that the Temple doors swung open every night of their own accord. This too occurred for forty years, beginning in 30/31 CE The leading Jewish authority of that time, Yohanan ben Zakkai, declared that this was a sign of impending doom, that the Temple itself would be destroyed.
The Jerusalem Talmud states:
''Said Rabban Yohanan Ben Zakkai to the Temple, 'O Temple, why do you frighten us? We know that you will end up destroyed. For it has been said, 'Open your doors, O Lebanon, that the fire may devour your cedars' '' (Zechariah 11:1)' (Sota 6:3).
Yohanan Ben Zakkai was the leader of the Jewish community during the time following the destruction of the Temple in 70 CE, when the Jewish government was transferred to Jamnia, some thirty miles west of Jerusalem.
Might the doors have opened to also signify that all may now enter the Temple, even to its innermost holy sections. The evidence supported by the miracles described above suggests the Lord's presence had departed from the Temple. This was no longer just a place for High Priests alone, but the doors swung open for all to enter the Lord's house of worship.
4) The Miracle of the Temple Menorah
The fourth miracle was that the most important lamp of the seven candle-stick Menorah in the Temple went out, and would not shine. Every night for 40 years (over 12,500 nights in a row) the main lamp of the Temple lampstand (menorah) went out of its own accord — no matter what attempts and precautions the priests took to safeguard against this event!
Earnest Martin states:
''In fact, we are told in the Talmud that at dusk the lamps that were unlit in the daytime (the middle four lamps remained unlit, while the two eastern lamps normally stayed lit during the day) were to be re-lit from the flames of the western lamp (which was a lamp that was supposed to stay lit all the time — it was like the 'eternal' flame that we see today in some national monuments) . . .
''This 'western lamp' was to be kept lit at all times. For that reason, the priests kept extra reservoirs of olive oil and other implements in ready supply to make sure that the 'western lamp' (under all circumstances) would stay lit. But what happened in the forty years from the very year Messiah said the physical Temple would be destroyed? Every night for forty years the western lamp went out, and this in spite of the priests each evening preparing in a special way the western lamp so that it would remain constantly burning all night!'' (The Significance of the Year CE 30, Ernest Martin, Research Update, April 1994, p.4).
Again, the odds against the lamp continually going out are astronomical. Something out of the ordinary was going on. The ''light'' of the Menorah—representing contact with God, His Spirit, and His Presence—was now removed. This special demonstration occurred starting with the crucifixion of the Messiah!
It should be clear to any reasonable mind that there is no natural way to explain all these four signs connected with the year 30 CE The only possible explanation has to be supernatural.
One text could be added: "and it has further been taught: 'For forty years before the destruction of the Temple the thread of scarlet never turned white but it remained red.'" (Bavli Rosh Hashanah 31b).
And according to my searching the text: "Said Rabban Yohanan Ben Zakkai to the Temple, 'O Temple, why do you frighten us? We know that you will end up destroyed. For it has been said, 'Open your doors, O Lebanon, that the fire may devour your cedars' " (Zechariah 11:1)" comes not from Talmud Yerushalmi tract Sotah, but from Yoma 6:3 [33b], directly after "Forty years before the destruction of the Temple, the western light went out, the crimson thread remained crimson, and the lot for the Lord always came up in the left hand. They would close the gates of the Temple by night and get up in the morning and find them wide open" (also from Yoma 6:3 [33b]).
From memory....
- The priest "regulary" heard a voice from within the Holy of Holies. Shortly before the Romans destroyed the Temple the voice said "Hence do we depart."
- There was "something" hoovering over the crucifixion spot of Jesus for 3 years
:thumbsup:
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 20, 2010, 04:44:03 PMAnd for my reference where can I find that Judas was a priest? Thank you again.
Few month later a reply. I overlooked your post back then. Sorry...
Proof #1: Temple scrolls schow Judas was a priest. His whole family was.
Proof #2: The Bible writes He was IN the Temple. Only priests are allowed inside.
Proof #3: Jesus was the sacrificial Lamb. The sacrifice in
not accepted if the blood is not sprinkled in the Temple by a priest. Judas Priest :winkgrin: threw(sprinkled) 30 pieces of silver on the Temple floor. It was
bloodmoney.
Just my 2 pieces of silver :2c:
Not a real miracle but close.
After Jesus resurrection half of the city became believers. That included half of the priests.
Very well hidden in a in the "Woman section" of the Temple scrolls there is a parable about Jesus.
"What was the incident with R. Joshua ben Perahiah? When King
Jannaeus [Alexander Jannaeus. king of Israel from 104 to 78 B.C.] put the
Rabbis [certain famous Pharisees] to death. Simeon ben Shetah was hid
by his sister, whilst R. Joshua ben Perahiah fled to Alexandria in
Egypt. When there was peace [on his death bed the King advised the
Queen to put her confidence in the Pharisees], Sinieon ben Shetah sent
this message to him: 'From me, Jerusalem, the Holy city, to thee in
Alexandria in Egypt. O my sister, my husband [i.e. his teacher] dwelleth
in thy midst and I abide desolate.' R. Joshua arose and came back
[from Egypt] and found himself in a certain inn where they paid him
great respect. He said: 'How beautiful is this aksania [the word means
"inn" or a "female innkeeper," often like Rahab]. One of his [Joshua's]
disciples named Jesus said to him, 'My master, her eyes are too
narrow!' He replied to him, 'Wicked person! Is it with such thoughts
that thou occupiest thyself' He sent forth four hundred horns
[trumpets] and excommunicated him [Jesus]. [Later], the disciple
[Jesus] came before him on many occasions, saying, 'Receive me.' but
he [the Pharisaic Rabbi] refused to notice him. One day while Rabbi
Joshua was reciting the Shema, he [Jesus] came before him. His
intention [R. Joshua's intention] was to receive him [finally to accept him]
and he made a sign to him with his hand [he put forth his right hand with
the palm out], but the disciple [Jesus] thought he was repelling him. So
he [Jesus] went and set up a brick [a tile for idolatrous purposes like
Jeroboam did when he came out of Egypt] and worshipped it. R. Joshua
said to him [Jesus], 'Repent;' but he [Jesus] answered him, 'Thus have
I received from thee that whoever sinned and cause others to sin is
deprived of the power of doing penitence.' A Master has said: The
disciple [Jesus] practices
The Interpretation of the Parable
The parable is not too difficult to understand. The subject is that of a prominent Rabbi
who flourished about 120 years before our Lord. First of all, why do we see this early date
for the parable, long before Jesus was born? That is not a problem. This period was the
time when the Pharisees and the Scribes first came to power in Israel. In the parable, the
later Rabbis placed Jesus as being against the ones who initiated Pharisaicism. It is just
like we today might say that George Washington learned his principles of government in
going against the monarchy and establishing republicanism at the feet of Oliver Cromwell
who was also against the monarchy and heeded republicanism (note that Cromwell lived
120 years before Washington). Since Jesus was indeed critical of the Scribes and
Pharisees (Matthew 23), the parable simply places Jesus as being contemporaneous with
the start of (and an enemy of) Pharisaicism.
But why is the parable placed within a context of Gehazi obtaining the leprosy of Naaman
and then being healed of it? Christians were teaching that Jesus was the Suffering
Servant of Isaiah 52:13 and on through all of Isaiah 53. This was a reference to the
Messiahship of Jesus. Jewish interpretation of the Suffering Servant was also Messianic. It
was common to think that the person of the prophecy would be a leper. He was called
"the Leprous One." References in the Talmud are specific. Mentioning the verse: "Surely
he hath borne our sicknesses," the Talmud states that this verse refers to their
prophesied Messianic redeemer. They said: "The Messiah, what is his name? The
Rabbis say, The Leprous One [or] The Sick One" (Sanhedrin 98b). Also: "The Lord
was pleased to bruise him, he made him to be sick" (Berekoth 5a). And though
Christians normally taught that Jesus was not sick a day in his life (and many Jews
accepted this as the teaching of the New Testament, which it was not), they were prone
to connect the sickness of leprosy with the Suffering Servant of Isaiah (their Messiah).
And so, we find that in the parable. Jesus is given a sickness like Gehazi obtained. This
gave Jesus Messianic claims.
Now, the parable begins to mention Jesus when Rabbi Joshua returns from Egypt. It was
also thought that Jesus had returned with Joshua. Joshua described the "inn" or the
"female innkeeper" as beautiful, but Jesus said she was "narrow of eyes." Female
innkeepers were notorious for being harlots, like the house that Rahab the harlot had kept
(Joshua 2:1). The prominent Rabbi thought the innkeeper beautiful, but Jesus did not. A
little later in Sotah we find the Rabbis saying that even "the council-chamber [of the
Rabbis] shall be given to fornication." Jesus was criticizing this prominent Rabbi of the
Sanhedrin for perpetuating and abetting fornication. So, the Rabbi excommunicated
Jesus. But if any Elder (as Jesus was) would dispute with the decisions of the Sanhedrin,
the disputing Elder was tried at Bethphage on the Mount of Olives, excommunicated from
Israel and then killed. See Sotah 45a in the Talmud (in our book Sotah) where this
sentence is explained in detail.
The Stange Ending to Sotah Page 8 of 10
http://www.askelm.com/prophecy/p950801.htm 22-12-2010
Then an extraordinary thing happens. After Rabbi Joshua excommunicated Jesus, the
parable says Jesus makes constant appeals to receive him back. And though Rabbi Joshua
resists for awhile, he then relents and decides to accept Jesus. The parable states that the
Rabbi finally put up his hand to accept Jesus. This was a reference to the fact that the
majority of the Pharisees (and the general population of the Jews in Palestine) did in fact
accept Jesus after his resurrection. We have the plain statement of James, the legal
brother of Jesus, who was head of the Christian community in Jerusalem, that there were
tens of thousands of Jews who believed Christ and the Christian teachings in A.D.56 (Acts
2 1:20 where the KJV "thousands" actually means "tens of thousands"). It could be
reasonably believed that half of the Jewish people at Jerusalem were Christian oriented.
Even Joshua, the Rabbi of the parable, accepted Jesus and he put up his hands to receive
him like Elishah did Gehazi. Recall that Gehazi became a leper at first, but he was healed
of his leprosy and allowed back in the court of Naaman and then restored to being "the
servant of the man of God [Elishah]" (II Kings 8:4). And whereas Jesus had been sickly
(though not with leprosy) like the Suffering Servant of Isaiah, and bearing sickness like
Gehazi bore Naaman's sickness, after his resurrection Jesus was sick no more. He was
then glorified and full of health.
The parable is showing that though the Pharisees were at first willing to accept Jesus (as
the parable said the Pharisaic Rabbi did), the Jesus of the parable now took a brick [a tile
with an idolatrous image on it] and began to practice idolatry. There is a reference in this
context of Sotah where it says that this was like Jeroboam who came out of Egypt who set
up the idolatrous worship at Bethel and Dan. The parable thus has Jesus coming out of
Egypt with the Rabbi, but then going into idolatry. Of course, Jesus did not do this
literally, but by the time the parable was written it was common for what were called the
followers of Jesus to be engaged in idolatrous worship like that which developed from
Jeroboam. The later disciples of Jesus were then reckoned to have a form of Judaism but
it was a false worship like Jeroboam established. And, by the fourth century, there were
indeed many Christians establishing image worship in their services. The Jews saw this as
idolatry (which, of course, it was). Indeed, the Jews did not stay long within Christianity.
==> In 63 AD they deconverted because the expected 70 weeks of Daniel didn't happen.
http://www.askelm.com/prophecy/p950801.htm
The westernmost (= closest to the Holies of Holies) lamp of the 7-branched Menorah that was located in the Hekhal, the Temple building which also contained the Holy of Holies. All 7 of the lamp bowls were of the exact same size and received the same amount of oil yet the westernmost light would burn much longer than the others.
The Talmud1 records ten Miracles that occurred at the Holy Temple in Jerusalem on a regular basis:
1. No woman ever miscarried because of the smell of the holy meat.
2. The holy meat never spoiled.
3. Never was a fly seen in the slaughterhouse.
4. Never did the High Priest have an accidental seminal discharge on Yom Kippur.
5. The rains did not extinguish the wood-fire burning upon the altar.
6. The wind did not prevail over the column of smoke [rising from the altar].
7. No disqualifying problem was ever discovered in the Omer offering, the Two Loaves or the Showbread.
8. The people stood crowded but had ample space in which to prostate themselves.
9. Never did a snake or scorpion cause injury in Jerusalem.
10. [Despite the hundreds of thousands of pilgrims and the small geographical nature of Jerusalem] No man ever said to his fellow "My lodging in Jerusalem is too cramped for me."
Quote from: Molly on July 12, 2010, 03:50:19 PM
First of all, the scarlet ribbon turning white strikes me as a cheap parlor trick, and he does, in fact, say that it stopped happening so consistently after one certain rabbi died. Maybe the others were not so adept at making it happen?
Or that rabbi wasn't as corrupt as the others.
QuoteHe also admits that it failed to turn white in the last 40 years after Christ's death, but gives a different reason for why this happened--the spiritual decay of the Jewish people during that time and the increase in murder of their own people. [but it's ok to murder others?]
The Talmud bears record to this spiritual decay, and declares that this national tragedy reached its height exactly 40 years prior to the destruction of the second Temple.
My guess is that that decay was Messanic Jews (and Roman) visiting the synagoges and sharing their thoughts. Also during and before Jesus time there were many teachers (not being official Temple rabbis) in the country. I have no idea what they thaught.
QuoteIt was during this turbulent time that murders became so widespread that the Sanhedrin9 ceased to judge capital crimes such as homicide.10
I'm not sure that's the complete truth. When the Temple curtian was torn the 30 ton lintel it hung on also fell down.
It destroyed, or at least made unsaf to enter, the Sanhedrin courtroom. IIRC they only were allowed to give death penalties in that court room. The Sanhedrin moved to another Temple room. Later the Romans moved them out of the Temple. Again later their authority was taken away.
QuoteAlthough the termination of miraculous events in the Temple was unrelated to Christian theology, it bore testimony to a time in history when Jewish people in great numbers turned against each other.
My guess: Jews vs Messanic Jews.
Miracles continued....
The Alter of Sacrifice.
Only two logs were needed to keep the fire burning on the Altar throughout the whole day of Atonement. Starting the year Jesus died they needed many more logs.
Eating bread
Priests ate a olive sized piece of bread from the Table of Shewbread and were satified. Starting the year of Jesus' death they were still hungry after eating the same amount of bread.
God leaving the Temple
Nisan 8 66AD 3am an extremely brilliant light hovered around the Altar and the Inner Temple.
Ps 78:14 In the daytime also he led them with a cloud, and all the night with a light of fire.
Num 9:15-23 (AKJV)
15 And on the day that the tabernacle was reared up the cloud covered the tabernacle, namely, the tent of the testimony: and at even there was on the tabernacle as it were the appearance of fire, until the morning.
16 So it was always: the cloud covered it by day, and the appearance of fire by night.
17 And when the cloud was taken up from the tabernacle, then after that the children of Israel journeyed: and in the place where the cloud stayed, there the children of Israel pitched their tents.
18 At the commandment of the LORD the children of Israel journeyed, and at the commandment of the LORD they pitched: as long as the cloud stayed on the tabernacle they rested in their tents.
19 And when the cloud tarried long on the tabernacle many days, then the children of Israel kept the charge of the LORD, and journeyed not.
20 And so it was, when the cloud was a few days on the tabernacle; according to the commandment of the LORD they stayed in their tents, and according to the commandment of the LORD they journeyed.
21 And so it was, when the cloud stayed from even to the morning, and that the cloud was taken up in the morning, then they journeyed: whether it was by day or by night that the cloud was taken up, they journeyed.
22 Or whether it were two days, or a month, or a year, that the cloud tarried on the tabernacle, remaining thereon, the children of Israel stayed in their tents, and journeyed not: but when it was taken up, they journeyed.
23 At the commandment of the LORD they rested in the tents, and at the commandment of the LORD they journeyed: they kept the charge of the LORD, at the commandment of the LORD by the hand of Moses.
So when God decided to move camp a light started float above the Tabernacle.
Nisan 14 66AD (Passover) at midnight the Temple gate opened. (note that those hours align with Jesus crucifixion but shifted 12 hours). It was understood as a gift to the enemy.
Pentecost 66AD.
24 priests witnessed a roar coming from the the Holies and then heard a voice saying "Hence we depart"
Amos 3:7-8
7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he reveals his secret to his servants the prophets.
8 The lion has roared, who will not fear? the Lord GOD has spoken, who can but prophesy?
The glory/light/voice left and hovered over Mount of Olives where Jesus died. Meaning God's Temple was there.
The voice keep warning the Jews to repent for 3.5 years and then goes up to heaven.
Shortly after the Temple was burned to the ground.
Luke 21:20 And when you shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is near.
:cloud9: Wow that was amazing. Another one of the threads I've got to catch up on. Thanks.... :HeartThrob: