Psalm 9

[LS]

I hope this is the right forum for this post - please move it to the correct area if it is not!

I have been trying to read Psalm 9 through the eyes of someone who believes in universal salvation.  Often when I read your explanations on this board, I usually can understand how you came to a certain conclusion, even if I disagree with you.

With this Psalm, though, I'm not able to make sense of it in that way. I am not looking to quarrel or argue - I'd like to just tell you up front the parts that I'm having trouble with and then be silent and let you explain how you see it, if that's ok?  I looked in the Concordant Version of the Old Testament but could not locate this particular Psalm so I'll post it in the KJV.

Psa 9:1  <To the chief Musician upon Muthlabben, A Psalm of David.> I will praise thee, O LORD, with my whole heart; I will shew forth all thy marvellous works.
Psa 9:2  I will be glad and rejoice in thee: I will sing praise to thy name, O thou most High.
Psa 9:3  When mine enemies are turned back, they shall fall and perish at thy presence.
Psa 9:4  For thou hast maintained my right and my cause; thou satest in the throne judging right.
Psa 9:5  Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name for ever and ever.
Psa 9:6  O thou enemy, destructions are come to a perpetual end: and thou hast destroyed cities; their memorial is perished with them.
Psa 9:7  But the LORD shall endure for ever: he hath prepared his throne for judgment.
Psa 9:8  And he shall judge the world in righteousness, he shall minister judgment to the people in uprightness.
Psa 9:9  The LORD also will be a refuge for the oppressed, a refuge in times of trouble.
Psa 9:10  And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, LORD, hast not forsaken them that seek thee.
Psa 9:11  Sing praises to the LORD, which dwelleth in Zion: declare among the people his doings.
Psa 9:12  When he maketh inquisition for blood, he remembereth them: he forgetteth not the cry of the humble.
Psa 9:13  Have mercy upon me, O LORD; consider my trouble which I suffer of them that hate me, thou that liftest me up from the gates of death:
Psa 9:14  That I may shew forth all thy praise in the gates of the daughter of Zion: I will rejoice in thy salvation.
Psa 9:15  The heathen are sunk down in the pit that they made: in the net which they hid is their own foot taken.
Psa 9:16  The LORD is known by the judgment which he executeth: the wicked is snared in the work of his own hands. Higgaion. Selah.
Psa 9:17  The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.
Psa 9:18  For the needy shall not alway be forgotten: the expectation of the poor shall not perish for ever.
Psa 9:19  Arise, O LORD; let not man prevail: let the heathen be judged in thy sight.
Psa 9:20  Put them in fear, O LORD: that the nations may know themselves to be but men. Selah.

I'll make my comments in the next post, and then listen.   :smile:

[jabcat]

Jumping the gun on 'ya here  :bigGrin:, but here's a comment or 2

I understand many/most of God's warnings in the OT to be temporal/earthly punishments - earthly consequences for sin.

The more literal translation appears to be "return to the grave".  There's a resurrection yet to come.

God bless, James.

[LS]

First, I know that the wicked is sometimes believed to be wickedness within, not individuals.  But I don't think that is the case here, as this is a song of David speaking of his enemies. Verses 3 and 5 speak of "mine enemies," the heathen, and the wicked. He says they perish, and are destroyed.  And the very end of the Psalm also seems to confirm (to me) that we are speaking of people here and not internal enemies, as David wants them to know they are "men," which I take to mean mortal. Also, verse 8 says He will minister judgment to the "people."

Verse 5 says their names are put out for "ever and ever" and each of those words "ever" is translated from a different word, so it seems to me it is placing great emphasis on the point that it is without end - not an age or a season.  The memory of them perishes with them; their destructions are come to a perpetual end.

If their end/destruction/perish is not literally forevermore, then verse 18 for the needy and poor would also not be forevermore?

My final problem with seeing this in a different light is simply something I mentioned in another thread and I guess nobody else can answer it for me.  But for centuries most people were not literate and did not have their own copies of scripture to read and to study - they could only listen and hear.  I just think the average person can hear and understand what is being said without taking extraordinary measures to explain its meaning.  

Thank you to anyone who takes time to reply  :cloud9:

Edited to add a "thank you" to James ... no problem jumping the gun!   :laugh2:  I appreciate your reply!

P.S. Oh great ... now I'm going to be wondering where the heck we got that phrase anyway ... "jumping the gun"   :umnick:

[thinktank]

In the old covenant the heathen were without hope, without God, they were mostly pagans. As such God treats them as enemies to Israel. But now in the new covenant the gentiles, heathen are with hope and do have God, therefore no longer enemies of God but reconcilled and forgiven.

The resurection of the old peoples will happen one day ACts 24
They will be given an opportunity to know Christ.

:2c: :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: You also have to remember that the plan of God was revealed progressively, over the ages. The ones in the OT for the most part, had to perceive the left hand of God, not the right, because the OT root purpose was to deal with idolatry. Man had over the years since Adam, forgotten who God was and what He was like. Blessings...

[WhiteWings]

:cloud9: You also have to remember that the plan of God was revealed progressively, over the ages.

That only means some parts of the truth are not mentioned in earlier books. There should be no contradiction.

LS mentioned verse 5. YLT translates it as:
^YLTPsa 9:5 Thou hast rebuked nations, Thou hast destroyed the wicked, Their name Thou hast blotted out to the age and for ever.

LS,
I'm going to search for an answer.
Right now my only tought is that destroyed also means lost.
Just like in the Greek the word for destroyed is also lost. (parable of the lost coin, sheep, prodical son)
The real problem lays in the word 'forever'

[jabcat]

Yes, it's a little confusing.  I know Young's uses for ever.  I've looked into it before.  They mean something different by it than "forever", as in eternal.  It's apparently based on olam (OT Hebrew) and of course, aion/aionios (NT Greek).

Looking at some TM info, here are some thoughts to perhaps explore further.  Not all from specifically Psalms, but still worth thought nonetheless...

The Rotherham, Weymouth, and Moffatt translations have translated
aion, aionios as things like;


no more to the latest age
to the latest age
age that is coming
coming age
close of the age
unbounded age
course of this world
until the Ages of the Ages

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/comparative_concordance_aion.html

****Man has a certain aiónian life; possibly ranging somewhere about the period of seventy years assigned in the Psalms - Thomas De Quincey, Tentmaker site  (IMO, fits particuarly well for the temporal, earthly judgments often described in the OT)****

Everlasting destruction, olethron aiónion, does not signify remediless ruin, but long banishment from God's presence. This is what sin does for the soul. Olethros is not annihilation, but desolation
It is a pity that the noun (aión) has not always been rendered by the English word eon, or æon, and the adjective by eonian or aionion; then all confusion would have been avoided. Webster's Unabridged, defines it as meaning a space or period of time, an era, epoch, dispensation, or cycle, etc. He also gives it the sense of eternity, but no one could have misunderstood, had it been thus rendered. Suppose our translation read "What shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the æon?" "The smoke of their torment shall ascend for æons of æons." "These shall go away into aionian chastisement, etc." The idea of eternity would not be found in the noun, nor of endless duration in the adjective, and the New Testament would be read as its authors intended.

aiónios is rendered belonging to the olam, or world to come. - Tentmaker.org

[WhiteWings]

^CLVPsa 9:5 You rebuke the nations; You destroy the wicked; You wipe out their name for the eon and further.

^ISA2Psa 9:5 you-rebuke nations you-destroy wicked-one name of them you-wipeout for eon and futurity.

Sounds a bit like the unpardoneble sin.
^YLTMat 12:32 And whoever may speak a word against the Son of Man it shall be forgiven to him, but whoever may speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this age, nor in that which is coming.

[jabcat]

 :thumbsup:

[thinktank]

From my view the age to come is either the millemium 1000 peace or the period after this, new jerusalem coming down from heaven.

I think Jesus is refering to the 1000 millenium peace and perhaps the guilty will have to be punished in some form.

[jabcat]

I'm sw on the fence about the 1000 mil, but I think you're suggestion is a plausible possibility. 

"We'll understand it better bye and bye"... :bigGrin:

[Cardinal]

:cloud9: You also have to remember that the plan of God was revealed progressively, over the ages.

That only means some parts of the truth are not mentioned in earlier books. There should be no contradiction.

:cloud9: There is no contradiction. The OT is the new concealed, the NT is the old revealed. They just couldn't see the full picture because it was not alloted for them to. If they had, they could not have walked out all they did "honestly". Blessings....

[WhiteWings]

:cloud9: You also have to remember that the plan of God was revealed progressively, over the ages.

That only means some parts of the truth are not mentioned in earlier books. There should be no contradiction.

:cloud9: There is no contradiction.

I'm not claiming that.

The OT is the new concealed, the NT is the old revealed.

True. But I think it's not relevant to the OP.
The/my point is that if the NT tuely teaches UR the not a single OT verse points to ET or ED.
So if Psa 9:5 really means without an end then there is a contradiction.

Progressive revelation for me means that some statements/verses are not clear right now but will be made clear in later books/verses.
(Jews believe in UR too; so it must be in OT)

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Progressive revelation OF the entire thing over time, AND progressive revelation to individuals of the entire thing personally, also over time, is what I'm saying. Are we talking around each other?  :grin:

[marcstalkspot]

Psa 9:3  When mine enemies are turned back, they shall fall and perish at thy presence.

----------------------Jesus 'perished' on the cross.  The Greek word "apollumi" (perish) means to "to lose, or to be lost." It is the same word Jesus used when He said
"I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel" (Matthew 15:24).  Remember the lost sheep was found and restored.  It also refers to the lost son and lost coin.  Jesus came to seek and save the lost (appollumi).




Psa 9:5  Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name for ever and ever.
----------------------------Mistranslation here, it should probably read - For the ages of the ages, not forevers and evers, ill look into it.

Psa 9:6  O thou enemy, destructions are come to a perpetual end: and thou hast destroyed cities; their memorial is perished with them.

-------------------------------Sodom perished and was destroyed, then restored....



Psa 9:8  And he shall judge the world in righteousness, he shall minister judgment to the people in uprightness.
-------------------------------------Is eternal frying like bacon for finite sins just?



Psa 9:17  The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.
-------------------------Goto the grave (not 'hell').  Everyone goes to the grave because NOONE is righteous.  We are born wicked (into sin).  We need a 'pattern of sound words' when reading the Bible so that everything 'fits'.

[peacemaker]

But with righteousness He will judge the poor, and decide with fairness for the afflicted of the earth.
And He will strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, and with the breath of His lips He will slay the wicked (Isaiah 11:4).

"With great power, comes great responsibility."

Destroying the wickedness or combination of parts under which a thing exists, makes restoration possible.

The SPIRIT did not breathe in us a Spirit of timidity or faintheartedness; but one of power, love, and good judgment.

peacemaker

[marcstalkspot]

2 Samuel 14:14
Like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be recovered, so we must die. But God does not take away life; instead, he devises ways so that a banished person may not remain estranged from him.


Notice how this passage first of all states "CANNOT BE RESTORED".
So...sounds impossible to be restored doesnt it?
Yet in the next line we read that God doesn't take away life but devises ways so that a banished person may not remain estranged (be restored) to Him.

God can do anything!  He is love!  To Him ALL live!  With God NOTHING is immpossible.  What do you think He's gonna do!?  Were His own offspring/children.  He loves us.  We have to read the Bible in light of that FACT or it will never make sense.  Any punishments are TEMPORARY and REMEDIAL, even when it doesnt look like it to us, God is constantly using evil for a greater good.

Genesis 50:20
As for you, You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives.

It didnt seem good to him at the time, but in the end it all made sense and saved many lives.

[LS]

I just wanted to let you know I've been reading the replies and I appreciate each one! Thank you   :thumbsup:

[WhiteWings]

:cloud9: Progressive revelation OF the entire thing over time, AND progressive revelation to individuals of the entire thing personally, also over time, is what I'm saying. Are we talking around each other?  :grin:

No I'm innocent. It's only you to blame :winkgrin:
I'll try to clarify.

Verse 5 says their names are put out for "ever and ever" and each of those words "ever" is translated from a different word, so it seems to me it is placing great emphasis on the point that it is without end - not an age or a season.  The memory of them perishes with them; their destructions are come to a perpetual end.

So ET or ED are true if that translation is correct.

In the old covenant the heathen were without hope, without God, they were mostly pagans.

The were never without hope. They just didn't knew it because...

You also have to remember that the plan of God was revealed progressively, over the ages. The ones in the OT for the most part, had to perceive the left hand of God, not the right, because the OT root purpose was to deal with idolatry.

And that's my point. The right and left hand work together. They are on the same team and don't 'contradict' in their actions.

Isaiah 54:7 For a short time I gave you up; but with great mercies I will take you back again.
Left hand. Right hand.

In the above verse we see two opposite action. But they are in the same verse. In other occasions in the same group of verses. That's fine and no contradiction. But if there are whole books and millenia between the left and right hand verses then it's a contradiction.

[marcstalkspot]

Speaking of contradictions...


PROVERBS
26:4  Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

26:5  Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.


To me there ARE 'SEEMING' contradictions in the Bible.  But do we suppose that the writer of proverbs was so STUPID that he would write something and contradict himself in the next line?

Both of these lines are true, sometimes its best not to answer a fool and at other times its best not too.  As Jesus said "Why dont you decide for yourselves what is right?".

If i tell you "Its really cold today", then 5 minutes later i tell you "Its boiling today", have i contradicted myself?
Some would say "Yes", but perhaps i was telling the truth about being cold and then hot 5 minutes later?
Perhaps i have a flu and my temperature is up and down.  Perhaps i turned the heating on in my house.  Perhaps there was a change in weather.  Perhaps i put on a huge fleece...

Seeming contradictions have to be seen in light of such understanding.

One disciple saw Jesus in a purple robe, another in a scarlet robe.
Was one of them lying or were both telling the truth as THEY saw it?
Was one of the disciples color blind?  Did one of them have the sun in his eye and couldnt see it properly?  Was it at night and the colors looked different?  Was Jesus clothed in a purple robe AND a scarlet robe?  Was he clothed in a robe of both scarlet AND purple?

I dont know why i wrote all this, it might benefit someone...The bible has to be taken in as a whole.

[thinktank]

good post :thumbsup:

There's a sentence in the bible though that bothers me

"a false balance is an abomination"
proverbs

To me the word "abomination" is one of the strongest words you can use to express disgust and I don't see how a false balance would be something that God would extremely hate, because as people it's almost impossible to keep the boat steady, constant shifting required.

I suppose in Gods order of things he allways wants things in order and balance or otherwise the universe would fall to pieces. But im not sure about that word, abomination being used there.

[marcstalkspot]

good post :thumbsup:

There's a sentence in the bible though that bothers me

"a false balance is an abomination"
proverbs

To me the word "abomination" is one of the strongest words you can use to express disgust and I don't see how a false balance would be something that God would extremely hate, because as people it's almost impossible to keep the boat steady, constant shifting required.

I suppose in Gods order of things he allways wants things in order and balance or otherwise the universe would fall to pieces. But im not sure about that word, abomination being used there.

Hi.  People were guilty of not useing 'honest scales' in those days, just as they are now.
What i mean by honest scales is that they actually used weights on actual scales that were not accurate so that they could charge people more than it was worth.
It would be like someone going to buy an apple, and instead of the weighing scale measuring the apple correctly, the false scale would be heavier and add more weight to the apple so that the shop could rip you off.
Leviticus 19:36
   
New International Version
Use honest scales and honest weights, an honest ephah and an honest hin. I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt.

New Living Translation
Your scales and weights must be accurate. Your containers for measuring dry materials or liquids must be accurate. I am the LORD your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt.

Im pretty sure this is what was being referred to in this passage, and others relating to 'false balances/scales'.

Proverbs 16:11
   
The LORD demands accurate scales and balances; he sets the standards for fairness.

[LS]

Verse 5 says their names are put out for "ever and ever" and each of those words "ever" is translated from a different word, so it seems to me it is placing great emphasis on the point that it is without end - not an age or a season.  The memory of them perishes with them; their destructions are come to a perpetual end.

I was reading another Psalm this morning:

Psa 45:6  Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever

It also uses the same two words in its use of "for ever and ever." Comparing scripture-to-scripture, if God's throne is literally for ever and ever, it seems correct (to me) to apply the same duration in both Psalms.   :mblush:

[WhiteWings]

Hi LS,

I wonder if Fathers throne is really for ever.
The Son will hand over His kingdom to Father.
Doesn't that mean Father was without a kingdom a certain amount of time?
So Fathers kingdom is not eternal.
(Before He created things there was nothing to be king of)

Verse 5 says their names are put out for "ever and ever" and each of those words "ever" is translated from a different word, so it seems to me it is placing great emphasis on the point that it is without end - not an age or a season.  The memory of them perishes with them; their destructions are come to a perpetual end.

I read that verse as: For an age and beyond. Or:Even longer than an age.

Somthing I haven't figured out for myself yet; but still want to mention it. I wonder if Father sits on the throne for ever/eternity/... I'm not meaning someone will take away His throne. It's that the eons end and from that point on there is no time. If that's true then every reference to time related things like hour/day/eon/forever/... is nonsense because the concept of time is nothing but a memory.
:dontknow:

Start of ages: ^YLT1Co 2:7  but we speak the hidden wisdom of God in a secret, that God foreordained before the ages to our glory,
End of ages: ^YLT1Co 10:11 And all these things as types did happen to those persons, and they were written for our admonition, to whom the end of the ages did come,


^YLT1Ti 1:17 and to the King of the ages, the incorruptible, invisible, only wise God, is honour and glory -- to the ages of the ages! Amen.

[WhiteWings]

I looked in the Concordant Version of the Old Testament but could not locate this particular Psalm

Below the the verses from CLV. Free for e-Sword

Psa 9:1 A Davidic Psalm I shall acclaim You, O Yahweh, with all my heart; I will recount all Your marvelous works.
Psa 9:2 I will rejoice and be glad in You; I will make melody to Your Name, O Supreme.
Psa 9:3 When my enemies are reversed backward, They shall stumble and perish from Your presence,
Psa 9:4 For You execute my judgment and my adjudication; You are seated on the throne, judging righteously.
Psa 9:5 You rebuke the nations; You destroy the wicked; You wipe out their name for the eon and further.
Psa 9:6 As for the enemy, they will come to end like permanent deserts, And You will eliminate their cities; their remembrance will perish with them.
Psa 9:7 Yet Yahweh, He shall sit enthroned for the eon; He will establish His throne for judgment,
Psa 9:8 And He shall judge the habitance with justice; He shall adjudicate the national groups with equity.
Psa 9:9 Yahweh shall become an Impregnable Retreat for the crushed, An Impregnable Retreat for seasons of distress.
Psa 9:10 So those knowing Your Name shall trust in You, For You do not forsake those seeking after You, O Yahweh.
Psa 9:11 Make melody to Yahweh, the One dwelling in Zion; Tell His activities among the peoples.
Psa 9:12 For the One seeking after bloodshed, He remembers them; He does not forget the cry of the humbled ones.
Psa 9:13 Be gracious to me, O Yahweh; See my humiliation from those hating me; You are raising me up from the gateways of death,
Psa 9:14 That I may recount all Your praises In the gateways of the daughter of Zion; Let me exult in Your salvation.
Psa 9:15 The nations are sunk in the grave they have made; Their foot is seized in the net that they have buried.
Psa 9:16 Yahweh is known by the judgment He executes; The wicked are trapped by the deed of His palms. Chant, Interlude"
Psa 9:17 The wicked shall return to the unseen, All the nations, forgetful of Elohim.
Psa 9:18 For the needy one shall not be forgotten permanently; The expectation of the humbled shall not perish for the future.
Psa 9:19 Do arise, O Yahweh, let not a mortal prevail; Let the nations be judged at Your presence.
Psa 9:20 Do set fear before them, O Yahweh; Let the nations know they are mortal. Interlude"

"Eon and further"
Bit of an open end.... How much further. 1 extra eon. 50 billion years. Eternity?
I can't tell you the exact length of time but I have some idea's that limit the maximum time.

IMO it can't mean for eternity because "enternity + 1 year" sounds wrong.
I think Psa 9:5 will al the very last end just before "Father all in all"
The meaning of all is another discussion...