Psalm 9

[LS]

Hi LS,

I wonder if Fathers throne is really for ever.

Hi WhiteWings ... it doesn't say the "Father's" throne ... it says "Thy throne, O God." Do you not believe the Son is God?

[WhiteWings]

I think I'm not allowed to answer that....
But neither Father or Son have an eternal throne.

"Then the end will come, when he(=Son) hands over the kingdom to God the Father." 1Cor.15

[LS]

I think I'm not allowed to answer that....
But neither Father or Son have an eternal throne.

"Then the end will come, when he(=Son) hands over the kingdom to God the Father." 1Cor.15

Oh ... sorry   :mblush:

[WhiteWings]

 :laughing7:

LS, I think it's ok if I ask you if you believe Father (also) sits on the throne during the reign of The Son.
Rex and Co-Rex

John 3:35  The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

Do you think that verse makes Jesus Rex or Co-Rex?

[LS]

:laughing7:

LS, I think it's ok if I ask you if you believe Father (also) sits on the throne during the reign of The Son.
Rex and Co-Rex

John 3:35  The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

Do you think that verse makes Jesus Rex or Co-Rex?

I don't understand what you mean by Rex and Co-Rex; I've never heard that before.

Jesus sits at the Father's right hand, so it seems to me both are on thrones.

And for what it's worth, I do believe these psalms are speaking of eternity - both the thrones and destruction.

[shawn]

:cloud9: You also have to remember that the plan of God was revealed progressively, over the ages. The ones in the OT for the most part, had to perceive the left hand of God, not the right, because the OT root purpose was to deal with idolatry. Man had over the years since Adam, forgotten who God was and what He was like. Blessings...

This is the newest and biggest revelation to me.  I know this might be old hat for some of you but this concept (at least in it's entirety) is new to me.  God's step wise plan of salvation, his first fruits and his timeline for revelation.

As with all the concepts of perishing...in my mind it could go either way.  We could be indeed talking about the eternal destiny, earthly ruin/destruction, or possibly the destruction of anything not of God within us all.

I am trying to take a bigger approach when interpreting...less focus on one or two scriptures and seeing the big picture of salvation.  The one things that is VERY difficult for me to get past with ED or ET is the concept of victory.  Satan wants to seperate man from God.  If he succeeds on any level for eternity...how can salvation for some be considered a victory?  Logically, ED and ET do not make sense.  How can Satan come in a swipe a good portion of God's creation, envoking his wrath which causes God to destroy the creation he set out to save?  Does God win in this scenerio?

[WhiteWings]

I don't understand what you mean by Rex and Co-Rex; I've never heard that before.

Jesus sits at the Father's right hand, so it seems to me both are on thrones.

And for what it's worth, I do believe these psalms are speaking of eternity - both the thrones and destruction.

Rex (Latin) is something king/ruler/ceasar. Co-Rex is don't know the word in English (that's why I used Rex)
Something like assistant king/prince
Most of the time the father is the Rex. When he gets older his son takes care of all ruling. The son is then the Co-Rex. But his father is still the highest authority.
You see that very often in Egyptian art.
The one that sits on the throne is the Rex. The one that stands and his head is at exactly the same hight as the one that sits is the co-rex.

[WhiteWings]

I am trying to take a bigger approach when interpreting...less focus on one or two scriptures and seeing the big picture of salvation.

I agree with that, partly. Surely all verse much align otherwise there is a contradiction in the Bible. But OTOH it's far to often much to easy to misunderstand a key verse without focusing on it.

The one things that is VERY difficult for me to get past with ED or ET is the concept of victory.  Satan wants to seperate man from God.

The Calvinist answer to that is that basicly God cretaed a few for Himself and the rest for satan. That basicly means God seperated people at birth.

If he succeeds on any level for eternity...how can salvation for some be considered a victory?

Not just any level but "vast majority"

Logically, ED and ET do not make sense.  How can Satan come in a swipe a good portion of God's creation, envoking his wrath which causes God to destroy the creation he set out to save?

ED makes sense. ED at least teaches the usaved ones, satan and his 'army' are destroyed too.
But in ET satan gets the joy to be ruler of the sinner for eternity. Meaning satan is having lots of fun.

Does God win in this scenerio?

I think it's not about winning. God can snap His fingers and satan turns to dust. End of war...
For me the question is: What does God want?
What He wants is what will happen.
UR: Simple. He wants and gets 100%
ED/ET less simple (imo): God elected a few or let free will of man make the choice. -> Whatever the outcome it was what God wanted.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi LS...  :cloud9:

FIRST --- before I begin with this answer... it seems that you are obsessed with finding fault in the observation of the Salvation of ALL... which says to me, that even though it is a GOOD THING to research a premise before investing oneself in believing it, ...it is also a BAD THING to cling to that which presents an INCOMPLETE / IN VAIN conclusion (which "ED" or "ET" both present), concerning --->

(1) the MISSION implemented by YHVH in sending CHRIST to SAVE the WORLD (which ends IN VAIN, for it does NOT manifest, in either ED, or ET) and --->

(2) the conclusion (which "ED or ET" present), displays in either presentation -- a DIVINE FAILURE to accomplish the MISSION, attempted by CHRIST, which was intended and desired by YHVH.

SECOND --- As long as your "mission" is to disprove UR, you shall not see it, nor believe it.  For you are beginning with one premise as a foundation (ED or ET), and using that premise to conclude ANY alternative to it...  that is a futile as one SINNER judging another SINNER. 

What one must do in order to learn TRUTH, is as CHRIST noted to the "RICH MAN"... (paraphrase) "leave ALL that you have BEHIND, and THEN, ...come and follow Me..." 

An EMPTY vessel is that which can be FILLED.  If the vessel is already FILLED with "riches" (that which one BELIEVES benefit him, as with the "rich man")... then how may it be ..."FILLED" otherwise?  :dontknow:

That said...

I have been trying to read Psalm 9 through the eyes of someone who believes in universal salvation.  Often when I read your explanations on this board, I usually can understand how you came to a certain conclusion, even if I disagree with you.

As long as you begin your search for "TRUTH", by determining it in any way, with beliefs that you held prior... then those beliefs shall inhibit you in "seeing" anything other than themselves.  This is the primary state and problem with "religion", and that which encumbered the Pharisees, which found themselves immersed in their "tradition/religion" which negated anything and everything, that CHRIST presented them...

With this Psalm, though, I'm not able to make sense of it in that way. I am not looking to quarrel or argue - I'd like to just tell you up front the parts that I'm having trouble with and then be silent and let you explain how you see it, if that's ok?  I looked in the Concordant Version of the Old Testament but could not locate this particular Psalm so I'll post it in the KJV.

LS... please do not be offended bro, but your post here reminds me of a person on a trip, which is UNSURE, and does NOT know the WAY to his destination, and so he stops to ask directions, then when NEW DIRECTIONS are given, he doesn't believe these directions given to him are the WAY!  :mshock:   Why stop at all?

Let us look upon the writer of this Scripture, a blessed and wonderful man, ...King David... He is noted in the Scripture you list below, as asking for dissolution of "enemies", as if HE himself is not "enemy" to anyone!   :mshock: :rolleye:

I think, as we observe this Scripture, we would be wise to note that whenever the JUDGMENT of GOD is requested against another,  ...the one REQUESTING, must needs be devoid of the necessity for JUDGMENT of him/herself, eh? -- John 8:1-11

There is more to this Scripture than is seen by just observing the words within IT...  :JCThink:

Here we have a sinner (David), requesting that other "SINNER'S" (his enemies whoever they are) be punished, ...is this not a HYPOCRITICAL position?   After all, did not DAVID send a man [Uriah] to his death to COVER UP his own SIN of ADULTERY?  :dontknow: -- 2 Sam 11:15 -- Do you think that DAVID (even though he was Uriah's KING) was an "enemy", ...to Uriah?  :Chinscratch:

EXAMPLE --- I might be "petitioning" GOD...

"Hey GOD!   LS is a dirty old "believer" in ET, and because UR is the TRUTH, I was wondering when you are going to PUNISH him for believing and preaching this LIE to others?"

:omg:  Who might ...I... be, to make such a request?  :sigh: 

For all "I know", ...you might have been TEN times the servant of God, that I have been in my lifetime!  ...Think about it.  :Chinscratch:

(fyi... please KNOW, that I would never do such a thing!  :wink2: :friendstu:)

White Wings & LS...

Psa 9:1  <To the chief Musician upon Muthlabben, A Psalm of David.> I will praise thee, O LORD, with my whole heart; I will shew forth all thy marvellous works.
Psa 9:2  I will be glad and rejoice in thee: I will sing praise to thy name, O thou most High.
Psa 9:3  When mine enemies are turned back, they shall fall and perish at thy presence.
Psa 9:4  For thou hast maintained my right and my cause; thou satest in the throne judging right.
Psa 9:5  Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name for ever [#H5760 - ungodly/perverse] and ever [#H5703 - perpetually]. 
Psa 9:6  O thou enemy, destructions are come to a perpetual end: and thou hast destroyed cities; their memorial is perished with them.
Psa 9:7  But the LORD shall endure for ever: he hath prepared his throne for judgment.
Psa 9:8  And he shall judge the world in righteousness, he shall minister judgment to the people in uprightness.
Psa 9:9  The LORD also will be a refuge for the oppressed, a refuge in times of trouble.
Psa 9:10  And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, LORD, hast not forsaken them that seek thee.
Psa 9:11  Sing praises to the LORD, which dwelleth in Zion: declare among the people his doings.
Psa 9:12  When he maketh inquisition for blood, he remembereth them: he forgetteth not the cry of the humble.
Psa 9:13  Have mercy upon me, O LORD; consider my trouble which I suffer of them that hate me, thou that liftest me up from the gates of death:
Psa 9:14  That I may shew forth all thy praise in the gates of the daughter of Zion: I will rejoice in thy salvation.
Psa 9:15  The heathen are sunk down in the pit that they made: in the net which they hid is their own foot taken.
Psa 9:16  The LORD is known by the judgment which he executeth: the wicked is snared in the work of his own hands. Higgaion. Selah.
Psa 9:17  The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.
Psa 9:18  For the needy shall not alway be forgotten: the expectation of the poor shall not perish for ever.
Psa 9:19  Arise, O LORD; let not man prevail: let the heathen be judged in thy sight.
Psa 9:20  Put them in fear, O LORD: that the nations may know themselves to be but men. Selah.

I'll make my comments in the next post, and then listen.   :smile:

The real problem lays in the word 'forever'

Good point WW...  :thumbsup:

The word "for-ever" as well as the words "everlasting, eternal, and eternity" mean WITHOUT BEGINNING as well as WITHOUT END.

The INFINITE application of FOREVER, which is WITHOUT BEGINNING as well as END is invalid in any application made by FINITES.  (except, in faith, believing GOD, to be the source of all things, is INFINITE -- even though we cannot comprehend Him, nor His INFINITE being and doings)

I believe any form of a word which implies INFINITY in any case, cannot be validly applied to any FINITE entity, for those entities -- (1) do not comprehend the meaning of INFINITE,  ...as well as -- (2) the (applying) "FINITE" entity has a "beginning and end" within its own experience, as does the "FINITE" it invalidly attempts to judge by application of that which he himself does not comprehend.

IOW -- if an entity is truly, "punished" for EVER... then it:

(1) has always been punished
(2) is punished
(3) will always be punished...

And has never, is and will never be other than "punished"... :mnah: UNREASONABLE.  :thumbdown:

...willieH  :cloud9:

[shawn]

I am trying to take a bigger approach when interpreting...less focus on one or two scriptures and seeing the big picture of salvation.

I agree with that, partly. Surely all verse much align otherwise there is a contradiction in the Bible. But OTOH it's far to often much to easy to misunderstand a key verse without focusing on it.

The one things that is VERY difficult for me to get past with ED or ET is the concept of victory.  Satan wants to seperate man from God.

The Calvinist answer to that is that basicly God cretaed a few for Himself and the rest for satan. That basicly means God seperated people at birth.

If he succeeds on any level for eternity...how can salvation for some be considered a victory?

Not just any level but "vast majority"

Logically, ED and ET do not make sense.  How can Satan come in a swipe a good portion of God's creation, envoking his wrath which causes God to destroy the creation he set out to save?

ED makes sense. ED at least teaches the usaved ones, satan and his 'army' are destroyed too.
But in ET satan gets the joy to be ruler of the sinner for eternity. Meaning satan is having lots of fun.

Does God win in this scenerio?

I think it's not about winning. God can snap His fingers and satan turns to dust. End of war...
For me the question is: What does God want?
What He wants is what will happen.
UR: Simple. He wants and gets 100%
ED/ET less simple (imo): God elected a few or let free will of man make the choice. -> Whatever the outcome it was what God wanted.

IMO Calvinist thinking leads one to believe God wasn't serious when he said he wanted to save all of mankind.  Since we know this isn't true it brings Calvinist thinking under serious scrutiny.

I disagree about winning and losing.  Maybe not in the traditional since but the word victory is used.  God triumphs.  So, unless God wants certain individuals to perish (which the Bible says he doesn't wish anyone to perish) then these individuals can't perish eternally and that be a victory.  If it can be...my limited finite brain can't wrap it's mind around it.

[WhiteWings]

I'm not a Calvinist, and likely all Calvinists don't hold the exact same views, but this is what I understand from it:
When God created us He from the very start created some for glory and most for destruction. That was a serious action by God. Not just a minstake or being not serious. (that would be an unperfect God)
Yes, God wants the majority to perish because only His elect are selected for glory. God wants noone from His elect to perish. Some Calvinists even state that the torture of the non elect glorifies God.

There are 2 major problems in the above.
If God needs the sinners to glorify Himselfs (even more) it means He's currently not at a perfect level of glorification.
He sent His Son for absolutely no reason because elect=elect and nothing can change that.

There is a reason you can't wrap you brain around it... Flaws and contradictions can be explained away on a per verse ( :laughing7:) basis but as whole it never really seems to fit...