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I have been trying to read Psalm 9 through the eyes of someone who believes in universal salvation.  Often when I read your explanations on this board, I usually can understand how you came to a certain conclusion, even if I disagree with you.

With this Psalm, though, I'm not able to make sense of it in that way. I am not looking to quarrel or argue - I'd like to just tell you up front the parts that I'm having trouble with and then be silent and let you explain how you see it, if that's ok?  I looked in the Concordant Version of the Old Testament but could not locate this particular Psalm so I'll post it in the KJV.

Psa 9:1  <To the chief Musician upon Muthlabben, A Psalm of David.> I will praise thee, O LORD, with my whole heart; I will shew forth all thy marvellous works.
Psa 9:2  I will be glad and rejoice in thee: I will sing praise to thy name, O thou most High.
Psa 9:3  When mine enemies are turned back, they shall fall and perish at thy presence.
Psa 9:4  For thou hast maintained my right and my cause; thou satest in the throne judging right.
Psa 9:5  Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name for ever and ever.
Psa 9:6  O thou enemy, destructions are come to a perpetual end: and thou hast destroyed cities; their memorial is perished with them.
Psa 9:7  But the LORD shall endure for ever: he hath prepared his throne for judgment.
Psa 9:8  And he shall judge the world in righteousness, he shall minister judgment to the people in uprightness.
Psa 9:9  The LORD also will be a refuge for the oppressed, a refuge in times of trouble.
Psa 9:10  And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, LORD, hast not forsaken them that seek thee.
Psa 9:11  Sing praises to the LORD, which dwelleth in Zion: declare among the people his doings.
Psa 9:12  When he maketh inquisition for blood, he remembereth them: he forgetteth not the cry of the humble.
Psa 9:13  Have mercy upon me, O LORD; consider my trouble which I suffer of them that hate me, thou that liftest me up from the gates of death:
Psa 9:14  That I may shew forth all thy praise in the gates of the daughter of Zion: I will rejoice in thy salvation.
Psa 9:15  The heathen are sunk down in the pit that they made: in the net which they hid is their own foot taken.
Psa 9:16  The LORD is known by the judgment which he executeth: the wicked is snared in the work of his own hands. Higgaion. Selah.
Psa 9:17  The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.
Psa 9:18  For the needy shall not alway be forgotten: the expectation of the poor shall not perish for ever.
Psa 9:19  Arise, O LORD; let not man prevail: let the heathen be judged in thy sight.
Psa 9:20  Put them in fear, O LORD: that the nations may know themselves to be but men. Selah.

I'll make my comments in the next post, and then listen.   :smile:

Jumping the gun on 'ya here  :bigGrin:, but here's a comment or 2

I understand many/most of God's warnings in the OT to be temporal/earthly punishments - earthly consequences for sin.

The more literal translation appears to be "return to the grave".  There's a resurrection yet to come.

God bless, James.

First, I know that the wicked is sometimes believed to be wickedness within, not individuals.  But I don't think that is the case here, as this is a song of David speaking of his enemies. Verses 3 and 5 speak of "mine enemies," the heathen, and the wicked. He says they perish, and are destroyed.  And the very end of the Psalm also seems to confirm (to me) that we are speaking of people here and not internal enemies, as David wants them to know they are "men," which I take to mean mortal. Also, verse 8 says He will minister judgment to the "people."

Verse 5 says their names are put out for "ever and ever" and each of those words "ever" is translated from a different word, so it seems to me it is placing great emphasis on the point that it is without end - not an age or a season.  The memory of them perishes with them; their destructions are come to a perpetual end.

If their end/destruction/perish is not literally forevermore, then verse 18 for the needy and poor would also not be forevermore?

My final problem with seeing this in a different light is simply something I mentioned in another thread and I guess nobody else can answer it for me.  But for centuries most people were not literate and did not have their own copies of scripture to read and to study - they could only listen and hear.  I just think the average person can hear and understand what is being said without taking extraordinary measures to explain its meaning.  

Thank you to anyone who takes time to reply  :cloud9:

Edited to add a "thank you" to James ... no problem jumping the gun!   :laugh2:  I appreciate your reply!

P.S. Oh great ... now I'm going to be wondering where the heck we got that phrase anyway ... "jumping the gun"   :umnick:

In the old covenant the heathen were without hope, without God, they were mostly pagans. As such God treats them as enemies to Israel. But now in the new covenant the gentiles, heathen are with hope and do have God, therefore no longer enemies of God but reconcilled and forgiven.

The resurection of the old peoples will happen one day ACts 24
They will be given an opportunity to know Christ.

:2c: :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c:

 :cloud9: You also have to remember that the plan of God was revealed progressively, over the ages. The ones in the OT for the most part, had to perceive the left hand of God, not the right, because the OT root purpose was to deal with idolatry. Man had over the years since Adam, forgotten who God was and what He was like. Blessings...

Quote from: Cardinal on July 11, 2010, 09:31:49 PM
:cloud9: You also have to remember that the plan of God was revealed progressively, over the ages.

That only means some parts of the truth are not mentioned in earlier books. There should be no contradiction.

LS mentioned verse 5. YLT translates it as:
^YLTPsa 9:5 Thou hast rebuked nations, Thou hast destroyed the wicked, Their name Thou hast blotted out to the age and for ever.

LS,
I'm going to search for an answer.
Right now my only tought is that destroyed also means lost.
Just like in the Greek the word for destroyed is also lost. (parable of the lost coin, sheep, prodical son)
The real problem lays in the word 'forever'

Yes, it's a little confusing.  I know Young's uses for ever.  I've looked into it before.  They mean something different by it than "forever", as in eternal.  It's apparently based on olam (OT Hebrew) and of course, aion/aionios (NT Greek).

Looking at some TM info, here are some thoughts to perhaps explore further.  Not all from specifically Psalms, but still worth thought nonetheless...

The Rotherham, Weymouth, and Moffatt translations have translated
aion, aionios as things like;


no more to the latest age
to the latest age
age that is coming
coming age
close of the age
unbounded age
course of this world
until the Ages of the Ages

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/comparative_concordance_aion.html

****Man has a certain aiónian life; possibly ranging somewhere about the period of seventy years assigned in the Psalms - Thomas De Quincey, Tentmaker site  (IMO, fits particuarly well for the temporal, earthly judgments often described in the OT)****

Everlasting destruction, olethron aiónion, does not signify remediless ruin, but long banishment from God's presence. This is what sin does for the soul. Olethros is not annihilation, but desolation
It is a pity that the noun (aión) has not always been rendered by the English word eon, or æon, and the adjective by eonian or aionion; then all confusion would have been avoided. Webster's Unabridged, defines it as meaning a space or period of time, an era, epoch, dispensation, or cycle, etc. He also gives it the sense of eternity, but no one could have misunderstood, had it been thus rendered. Suppose our translation read "What shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the æon?" "The smoke of their torment shall ascend for æons of æons." "These shall go away into aionian chastisement, etc." The idea of eternity would not be found in the noun, nor of endless duration in the adjective, and the New Testament would be read as its authors intended.

aiónios is rendered belonging to the olam, or world to come. - Tentmaker.org

^CLVPsa 9:5 You rebuke the nations; You destroy the wicked; You wipe out their name for the eon and further.

^ISA2Psa 9:5 you-rebuke nations you-destroy wicked-one name of them you-wipeout for eon and futurity.

Sounds a bit like the unpardoneble sin.
^YLTMat 12:32 And whoever may speak a word against the Son of Man it shall be forgiven to him, but whoever may speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this age, nor in that which is coming.

 :thumbsup:

From my view the age to come is either the millemium 1000 peace or the period after this, new jerusalem coming down from heaven.

I think Jesus is refering to the 1000 millenium peace and perhaps the guilty will have to be punished in some form.

I'm sw on the fence about the 1000 mil, but I think you're suggestion is a plausible possibility. 

"We'll understand it better bye and bye"... :bigGrin:

Quote from: WhiteWings on July 11, 2010, 09:50:55 PM

Quote from: Cardinal on July 11, 2010, 09:31:49 PM
:cloud9: You also have to remember that the plan of God was revealed progressively, over the ages.

That only means some parts of the truth are not mentioned in earlier books. There should be no contradiction.

:cloud9: There is no contradiction. The OT is the new concealed, the NT is the old revealed. They just couldn't see the full picture because it was not alloted for them to. If they had, they could not have walked out all they did "honestly". Blessings....

Quote from: Cardinal on July 11, 2010, 11:04:35 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on July 11, 2010, 09:50:55 PM

Quote from: Cardinal on July 11, 2010, 09:31:49 PM
:cloud9: You also have to remember that the plan of God was revealed progressively, over the ages.

That only means some parts of the truth are not mentioned in earlier books. There should be no contradiction.

:cloud9: There is no contradiction.

I'm not claiming that.

QuoteThe OT is the new concealed, the NT is the old revealed.

True. But I think it's not relevant to the OP.
The/my point is that if the NT tuely teaches UR the not a single OT verse points to ET or ED.
So if Psa 9:5 really means without an end then there is a contradiction.

Progressive revelation for me means that some statements/verses are not clear right now but will be made clear in later books/verses.
(Jews believe in UR too; so it must be in OT)

 :cloud9: Progressive revelation OF the entire thing over time, AND progressive revelation to individuals of the entire thing personally, also over time, is what I'm saying. Are we talking around each other?  :grin:

Psa 9:3  When mine enemies are turned back, they shall fall and perish at thy presence.

----------------------Jesus 'perished' on the cross.  The Greek word "apollumi" (perish) means to "to lose, or to be lost." It is the same word Jesus used when He said
"I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel" (Matthew 15:24).  Remember the lost sheep was found and restored.  It also refers to the lost son and lost coin.  Jesus came to seek and save the lost (appollumi).




Psa 9:5  Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name for ever and ever.
----------------------------Mistranslation here, it should probably read - For the ages of the ages, not forevers and evers, ill look into it.

Psa 9:6  O thou enemy, destructions are come to a perpetual end: and thou hast destroyed cities; their memorial is perished with them.

-------------------------------Sodom perished and was destroyed, then restored....



Psa 9:8  And he shall judge the world in righteousness, he shall minister judgment to the people in uprightness.
-------------------------------------Is eternal frying like bacon for finite sins just?



Psa 9:17  The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.
-------------------------Goto the grave (not 'hell').  Everyone goes to the grave because NOONE is righteous.  We are born wicked (into sin).  We need a 'pattern of sound words' when reading the Bible so that everything 'fits'.

But with righteousness He will judge the poor, and decide with fairness for the afflicted of the earth.
And He will strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, and with the breath of His lips He will slay the wicked (Isaiah 11:4).

"With great power, comes great responsibility."

Destroying the wickedness or combination of parts under which a thing exists, makes restoration possible.

The SPIRIT did not breathe in us a Spirit of timidity or faintheartedness; but one of power, love, and good judgment.

peacemaker

2 Samuel 14:14
Like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be recovered, so we must die. But God does not take away life; instead, he devises ways so that a banished person may not remain estranged from him.


Notice how this passage first of all states "CANNOT BE RESTORED".
So...sounds impossible to be restored doesnt it?
Yet in the next line we read that God doesn't take away life but devises ways so that a banished person may not remain estranged (be restored) to Him.

God can do anything!  He is love!  To Him ALL live!  With God NOTHING is immpossible.  What do you think He's gonna do!?  Were His own offspring/children.  He loves us.  We have to read the Bible in light of that FACT or it will never make sense.  Any punishments are TEMPORARY and REMEDIAL, even when it doesnt look like it to us, God is constantly using evil for a greater good.

Genesis 50:20
As for you, You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives.

It didnt seem good to him at the time, but in the end it all made sense and saved many lives.

I just wanted to let you know I've been reading the replies and I appreciate each one! Thank you   :thumbsup:

Quote from: Cardinal on July 12, 2010, 12:29:14 AM
:cloud9: Progressive revelation OF the entire thing over time, AND progressive revelation to individuals of the entire thing personally, also over time, is what I'm saying. Are we talking around each other?  :grin:

No I'm innocent. It's only you to blame :winkgrin:
I'll try to clarify.

Quote from: LSVerse 5 says their names are put out for "ever and ever" and each of those words "ever" is translated from a different word, so it seems to me it is placing great emphasis on the point that it is without end - not an age or a season.  The memory of them perishes with them; their destructions are come to a perpetual end.

So ET or ED are true if that translation is correct.

Quote from: ThinkTankIn the old covenant the heathen were without hope, without God, they were mostly pagans.

The were never without hope. They just didn't knew it because...

Quote from: CardinalYou also have to remember that the plan of God was revealed progressively, over the ages. The ones in the OT for the most part, had to perceive the left hand of God, not the right, because the OT root purpose was to deal with idolatry.

And that's my point. The right and left hand work together. They are on the same team and don't 'contradict' in their actions.

Isaiah 54:7 For a short time I gave you up; but with great mercies I will take you back again.
Left hand. Right hand.

In the above verse we see two opposite action. But they are in the same verse. In other occasions in the same group of verses. That's fine and no contradiction. But if there are whole books and millenia between the left and right hand verses then it's a contradiction.

Speaking of contradictions...


PROVERBS
26:4  Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

26:5  Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.


To me there ARE 'SEEMING' contradictions in the Bible.  But do we suppose that the writer of proverbs was so STUPID that he would write something and contradict himself in the next line?

Both of these lines are true, sometimes its best not to answer a fool and at other times its best not too.  As Jesus said "Why dont you decide for yourselves what is right?".

If i tell you "Its really cold today", then 5 minutes later i tell you "Its boiling today", have i contradicted myself?
Some would say "Yes", but perhaps i was telling the truth about being cold and then hot 5 minutes later?
Perhaps i have a flu and my temperature is up and down.  Perhaps i turned the heating on in my house.  Perhaps there was a change in weather.  Perhaps i put on a huge fleece...

Seeming contradictions have to be seen in light of such understanding.

One disciple saw Jesus in a purple robe, another in a scarlet robe.
Was one of them lying or were both telling the truth as THEY saw it?
Was one of the disciples color blind?  Did one of them have the sun in his eye and couldnt see it properly?  Was it at night and the colors looked different?  Was Jesus clothed in a purple robe AND a scarlet robe?  Was he clothed in a robe of both scarlet AND purple?

I dont know why i wrote all this, it might benefit someone...The bible has to be taken in as a whole.

good post :thumbsup:

There's a sentence in the bible though that bothers me

"a false balance is an abomination"
proverbs

To me the word "abomination" is one of the strongest words you can use to express disgust and I don't see how a false balance would be something that God would extremely hate, because as people it's almost impossible to keep the boat steady, constant shifting required.

I suppose in Gods order of things he allways wants things in order and balance or otherwise the universe would fall to pieces. But im not sure about that word, abomination being used there.

Quote from: thinktank on July 12, 2010, 09:59:57 PM
good post :thumbsup:

There's a sentence in the bible though that bothers me

"a false balance is an abomination"
proverbs

To me the word "abomination" is one of the strongest words you can use to express disgust and I don't see how a false balance would be something that God would extremely hate, because as people it's almost impossible to keep the boat steady, constant shifting required.

I suppose in Gods order of things he allways wants things in order and balance or otherwise the universe would fall to pieces. But im not sure about that word, abomination being used there.

Hi.  People were guilty of not useing 'honest scales' in those days, just as they are now.
What i mean by honest scales is that they actually used weights on actual scales that were not accurate so that they could charge people more than it was worth.
It would be like someone going to buy an apple, and instead of the weighing scale measuring the apple correctly, the false scale would be heavier and add more weight to the apple so that the shop could rip you off.
Leviticus 19:36
   
New International Version
Use honest scales and honest weights, an honest ephah and an honest hin. I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt.

New Living Translation
Your scales and weights must be accurate. Your containers for measuring dry materials or liquids must be accurate. I am the LORD your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt.

Im pretty sure this is what was being referred to in this passage, and others relating to 'false balances/scales'.

Proverbs 16:11
   
The LORD demands accurate scales and balances; he sets the standards for fairness.

Quote from: LS on July 11, 2010, 09:16:24 PM
Verse 5 says their names are put out for "ever and ever" and each of those words "ever" is translated from a different word, so it seems to me it is placing great emphasis on the point that it is without end - not an age or a season.  The memory of them perishes with them; their destructions are come to a perpetual end.

I was reading another Psalm this morning:

Psa 45:6  Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever

It also uses the same two words in its use of "for ever and ever." Comparing scripture-to-scripture, if God's throne is literally for ever and ever, it seems correct (to me) to apply the same duration in both Psalms.   :mblush:

Hi LS,

I wonder if Fathers throne is really for ever.
The Son will hand over His kingdom to Father.
Doesn't that mean Father was without a kingdom a certain amount of time?
So Fathers kingdom is not eternal.
(Before He created things there was nothing to be king of)

Quote from: LS on July 11, 2010, 09:16:24 PM
Verse 5 says their names are put out for "ever and ever" and each of those words "ever" is translated from a different word, so it seems to me it is placing great emphasis on the point that it is without end - not an age or a season.  The memory of them perishes with them; their destructions are come to a perpetual end.

I read that verse as: For an age and beyond. Or:Even longer than an age.

Somthing I haven't figured out for myself yet; but still want to mention it. I wonder if Father sits on the throne for ever/eternity/... I'm not meaning someone will take away His throne. It's that the eons end and from that point on there is no time. If that's true then every reference to time related things like hour/day/eon/forever/... is nonsense because the concept of time is nothing but a memory.
:dontknow:

Start of ages: ^YLT1Co 2:7  but we speak the hidden wisdom of God in a secret, that God foreordained before the ages to our glory,
End of ages: ^YLT1Co 10:11 And all these things as types did happen to those persons, and they were written for our admonition, to whom the end of the ages did come,


^YLT1Ti 1:17 and to the King of the ages, the incorruptible, invisible, only wise God, is honour and glory -- to the ages of the ages! Amen.

Quote from: LS on July 11, 2010, 08:54:34 PMI looked in the Concordant Version of the Old Testament but could not locate this particular Psalm

Below the the verses from CLV. Free for e-Sword

Psa 9:1 A Davidic Psalm I shall acclaim You, O Yahweh, with all my heart; I will recount all Your marvelous works.
Psa 9:2 I will rejoice and be glad in You; I will make melody to Your Name, O Supreme.
Psa 9:3 When my enemies are reversed backward, They shall stumble and perish from Your presence,
Psa 9:4 For You execute my judgment and my adjudication; You are seated on the throne, judging righteously.
Psa 9:5 You rebuke the nations; You destroy the wicked; You wipe out their name for the eon and further.
Psa 9:6 As for the enemy, they will come to end like permanent deserts, And You will eliminate their cities; their remembrance will perish with them.
Psa 9:7 Yet Yahweh, He shall sit enthroned for the eon; He will establish His throne for judgment,
Psa 9:8 And He shall judge the habitance with justice; He shall adjudicate the national groups with equity.
Psa 9:9 Yahweh shall become an Impregnable Retreat for the crushed, An Impregnable Retreat for seasons of distress.
Psa 9:10 So those knowing Your Name shall trust in You, For You do not forsake those seeking after You, O Yahweh.
Psa 9:11 Make melody to Yahweh, the One dwelling in Zion; Tell His activities among the peoples.
Psa 9:12 For the One seeking after bloodshed, He remembers them; He does not forget the cry of the humbled ones.
Psa 9:13 Be gracious to me, O Yahweh; See my humiliation from those hating me; You are raising me up from the gateways of death,
Psa 9:14 That I may recount all Your praises In the gateways of the daughter of Zion; Let me exult in Your salvation.
Psa 9:15 The nations are sunk in the grave they have made; Their foot is seized in the net that they have buried.
Psa 9:16 Yahweh is known by the judgment He executes; The wicked are trapped by the deed of His palms. Chant, Interlude"
Psa 9:17 The wicked shall return to the unseen, All the nations, forgetful of Elohim.
Psa 9:18 For the needy one shall not be forgotten permanently; The expectation of the humbled shall not perish for the future.
Psa 9:19 Do arise, O Yahweh, let not a mortal prevail; Let the nations be judged at Your presence.
Psa 9:20 Do set fear before them, O Yahweh; Let the nations know they are mortal. Interlude"

"Eon and further"
Bit of an open end.... How much further. 1 extra eon. 50 billion years. Eternity?
I can't tell you the exact length of time but I have some idea's that limit the maximum time.

IMO it can't mean for eternity because "enternity + 1 year" sounds wrong.
I think Psa 9:5 will al the very last end just before "Father all in all"
The meaning of all is another discussion...

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 01, 2010, 04:21:43 PM
Hi LS,

I wonder if Fathers throne is really for ever.

Hi WhiteWings ... it doesn't say the "Father's" throne ... it says "Thy throne, O God." Do you not believe the Son is God?

I think I'm not allowed to answer that....
But neither Father or Son have an eternal throne.

"Then the end will come, when he(=Son) hands over the kingdom to God the Father." 1Cor.15

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 06, 2010, 09:12:15 PM
I think I'm not allowed to answer that....
But neither Father or Son have an eternal throne.

"Then the end will come, when he(=Son) hands over the kingdom to God the Father." 1Cor.15

Oh ... sorry   :mblush:

 :laughing7:

LS, I think it's ok if I ask you if you believe Father (also) sits on the throne during the reign of The Son.
Rex and Co-Rex

John 3:35  The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

Do you think that verse makes Jesus Rex or Co-Rex?

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 06, 2010, 09:55:03 PM
:laughing7:

LS, I think it's ok if I ask you if you believe Father (also) sits on the throne during the reign of The Son.
Rex and Co-Rex

John 3:35  The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

Do you think that verse makes Jesus Rex or Co-Rex?

I don't understand what you mean by Rex and Co-Rex; I've never heard that before.

Jesus sits at the Father's right hand, so it seems to me both are on thrones.

And for what it's worth, I do believe these psalms are speaking of eternity - both the thrones and destruction.

Quote from: Cardinal on July 11, 2010, 09:31:49 PM
:cloud9: You also have to remember that the plan of God was revealed progressively, over the ages. The ones in the OT for the most part, had to perceive the left hand of God, not the right, because the OT root purpose was to deal with idolatry. Man had over the years since Adam, forgotten who God was and what He was like. Blessings...

This is the newest and biggest revelation to me.  I know this might be old hat for some of you but this concept (at least in it's entirety) is new to me.  God's step wise plan of salvation, his first fruits and his timeline for revelation.

As with all the concepts of perishing...in my mind it could go either way.  We could be indeed talking about the eternal destiny, earthly ruin/destruction, or possibly the destruction of anything not of God within us all.

I am trying to take a bigger approach when interpreting...less focus on one or two scriptures and seeing the big picture of salvation.  The one things that is VERY difficult for me to get past with ED or ET is the concept of victory.  Satan wants to seperate man from God.  If he succeeds on any level for eternity...how can salvation for some be considered a victory?  Logically, ED and ET do not make sense.  How can Satan come in a swipe a good portion of God's creation, envoking his wrath which causes God to destroy the creation he set out to save?  Does God win in this scenerio?

Quote from: LS on September 06, 2010, 10:22:59 PMI don't understand what you mean by Rex and Co-Rex; I've never heard that before.

Jesus sits at the Father's right hand, so it seems to me both are on thrones.

And for what it's worth, I do believe these psalms are speaking of eternity - both the thrones and destruction.

Rex (Latin) is something king/ruler/ceasar. Co-Rex is don't know the word in English (that's why I used Rex)
Something like assistant king/prince
Most of the time the father is the Rex. When he gets older his son takes care of all ruling. The son is then the Co-Rex. But his father is still the highest authority.
You see that very often in Egyptian art.
The one that sits on the throne is the Rex. The one that stands and his head is at exactly the same hight as the one that sits is the co-rex.

Quote from: shawn on September 06, 2010, 10:26:07 PMI am trying to take a bigger approach when interpreting...less focus on one or two scriptures and seeing the big picture of salvation.

I agree with that, partly. Surely all verse much align otherwise there is a contradiction in the Bible. But OTOH it's far to often much to easy to misunderstand a key verse without focusing on it.

QuoteThe one things that is VERY difficult for me to get past with ED or ET is the concept of victory.  Satan wants to seperate man from God.

The Calvinist answer to that is that basicly God cretaed a few for Himself and the rest for satan. That basicly means God seperated people at birth.

QuoteIf he succeeds on any level for eternity...how can salvation for some be considered a victory?

Not just any level but "vast majority"

QuoteLogically, ED and ET do not make sense.  How can Satan come in a swipe a good portion of God's creation, envoking his wrath which causes God to destroy the creation he set out to save?

ED makes sense. ED at least teaches the usaved ones, satan and his 'army' are destroyed too.
But in ET satan gets the joy to be ruler of the sinner for eternity. Meaning satan is having lots of fun.

QuoteDoes God win in this scenerio?

I think it's not about winning. God can snap His fingers and satan turns to dust. End of war...
For me the question is: What does God want?
What He wants is what will happen.
UR: Simple. He wants and gets 100%
ED/ET less simple (imo): God elected a few or let free will of man make the choice. -> Whatever the outcome it was what God wanted.

willieH: Hi LS...  :cloud9:

FIRST --- before I begin with this answer... it seems that you are obsessed with finding fault in the observation of the Salvation of ALL... which says to me, that even though it is a GOOD THING to research a premise before investing oneself in believing it, ...it is also a BAD THING to cling to that which presents an INCOMPLETE / IN VAIN conclusion (which "ED" or "ET" both present), concerning --->

(1) the MISSION implemented by YHVH in sending CHRIST to SAVE the WORLD (which ends IN VAIN, for it does NOT manifest, in either ED, or ET) and --->

(2) the conclusion (which "ED or ET" present), displays in either presentation -- a DIVINE FAILURE to accomplish the MISSION, attempted by CHRIST, which was intended and desired by YHVH.

SECOND --- As long as your "mission" is to disprove UR, you shall not see it, nor believe it.  For you are beginning with one premise as a foundation (ED or ET), and using that premise to conclude ANY alternative to it...  that is a futile as one SINNER judging another SINNER. 

What one must do in order to learn TRUTH, is as CHRIST noted to the "RICH MAN"... (paraphrase) "leave ALL that you have BEHIND, and THEN, ...come and follow Me..." 

An EMPTY vessel is that which can be FILLED.  If the vessel is already FILLED with "riches" (that which one BELIEVES benefit him, as with the "rich man")... then how may it be ..."FILLED" otherwise?  :dontknow:

That said...

Quote from: LS on July 11, 2010, 08:54:34 PM
I have been trying to read Psalm 9 through the eyes of someone who believes in universal salvation.  Often when I read your explanations on this board, I usually can understand how you came to a certain conclusion, even if I disagree with you.

As long as you begin your search for "TRUTH", by determining it in any way, with beliefs that you held prior... then those beliefs shall inhibit you in "seeing" anything other than themselves.  This is the primary state and problem with "religion", and that which encumbered the Pharisees, which found themselves immersed in their "tradition/religion" which negated anything and everything, that CHRIST presented them...

Quote from: LS on July 11, 2010, 08:54:34 PMWith this Psalm, though, I'm not able to make sense of it in that way. I am not looking to quarrel or argue - I'd like to just tell you up front the parts that I'm having trouble with and then be silent and let you explain how you see it, if that's ok?  I looked in the Concordant Version of the Old Testament but could not locate this particular Psalm so I'll post it in the KJV.

LS... please do not be offended bro, but your post here reminds me of a person on a trip, which is UNSURE, and does NOT know the WAY to his destination, and so he stops to ask directions, then when NEW DIRECTIONS are given, he doesn't believe these directions given to him are the WAY!  :mshock:   Why stop at all?

Let us look upon the writer of this Scripture, a blessed and wonderful man, ...King David... He is noted in the Scripture you list below, as asking for dissolution of "enemies", as if HE himself is not "enemy" to anyone!   :mshock: :rolleye:

I think, as we observe this Scripture, we would be wise to note that whenever the JUDGMENT of GOD is requested against another,  ...the one REQUESTING, must needs be devoid of the necessity for JUDGMENT of him/herself, eh? -- John 8:1-11

There is more to this Scripture than is seen by just observing the words within IT...  :JCThink:

Here we have a sinner (David), requesting that other "SINNER'S" (his enemies whoever they are) be punished, ...is this not a HYPOCRITICAL position?   After all, did not DAVID send a man [Uriah] to his death to COVER UP his own SIN of ADULTERY?  :dontknow: -- 2 Sam 11:15 -- Do you think that DAVID (even though he was Uriah's KING) was an "enemy", ...to Uriah?  :Chinscratch:

EXAMPLE --- I might be "petitioning" GOD...

"Hey GOD!   LS is a dirty old "believer" in ET, and because UR is the TRUTH, I was wondering when you are going to PUNISH him for believing and preaching this LIE to others?"

:omg:  Who might ...I... be, to make such a request?  :sigh: 

For all "I know", ...you might have been TEN times the servant of God, that I have been in my lifetime!  ...Think about it.  :Chinscratch:

(fyi... please KNOW, that I would never do such a thing!  :wink2: :friendstu:)

White Wings & LS...

Quote from: LS on July 11, 2010, 08:54:34 PMPsa 9:1  <To the chief Musician upon Muthlabben, A Psalm of David.> I will praise thee, O LORD, with my whole heart; I will shew forth all thy marvellous works.
Psa 9:2  I will be glad and rejoice in thee: I will sing praise to thy name, O thou most High.
Psa 9:3  When mine enemies are turned back, they shall fall and perish at thy presence.
Psa 9:4  For thou hast maintained my right and my cause; thou satest in the throne judging right.
Psa 9:5  Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name for ever [#H5760 - ungodly/perverse] and ever [#H5703 - perpetually]. 
Psa 9:6  O thou enemy, destructions are come to a perpetual end: and thou hast destroyed cities; their memorial is perished with them.
Psa 9:7  But the LORD shall endure for ever: he hath prepared his throne for judgment.
Psa 9:8  And he shall judge the world in righteousness, he shall minister judgment to the people in uprightness.
Psa 9:9  The LORD also will be a refuge for the oppressed, a refuge in times of trouble.
Psa 9:10  And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, LORD, hast not forsaken them that seek thee.
Psa 9:11  Sing praises to the LORD, which dwelleth in Zion: declare among the people his doings.
Psa 9:12  When he maketh inquisition for blood, he remembereth them: he forgetteth not the cry of the humble.
Psa 9:13  Have mercy upon me, O LORD; consider my trouble which I suffer of them that hate me, thou that liftest me up from the gates of death:
Psa 9:14  That I may shew forth all thy praise in the gates of the daughter of Zion: I will rejoice in thy salvation.
Psa 9:15  The heathen are sunk down in the pit that they made: in the net which they hid is their own foot taken.
Psa 9:16  The LORD is known by the judgment which he executeth: the wicked is snared in the work of his own hands. Higgaion. Selah.
Psa 9:17  The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.
Psa 9:18  For the needy shall not alway be forgotten: the expectation of the poor shall not perish for ever.
Psa 9:19  Arise, O LORD; let not man prevail: let the heathen be judged in thy sight.
Psa 9:20  Put them in fear, O LORD: that the nations may know themselves to be but men. Selah.

I'll make my comments in the next post, and then listen.   :smile:

Quote from: WhiteWings on July 11, 2010, 09:50:55 PMThe real problem lays in the word 'forever'

Good point WW...  :thumbsup:

The word "for-ever" as well as the words "everlasting, eternal, and eternity" mean WITHOUT BEGINNING as well as WITHOUT END.

The INFINITE application of FOREVER, which is WITHOUT BEGINNING as well as END is invalid in any application made by FINITES.  (except, in faith, believing GOD, to be the source of all things, is INFINITE -- even though we cannot comprehend Him, nor His INFINITE being and doings)

I believe any form of a word which implies INFINITY in any case, cannot be validly applied to any FINITE entity, for those entities -- (1) do not comprehend the meaning of INFINITE,  ...as well as -- (2) the (applying) "FINITE" entity has a "beginning and end" within its own experience, as does the "FINITE" it invalidly attempts to judge by application of that which he himself does not comprehend.

IOW -- if an entity is truly, "punished" for EVER... then it:

(1) has always been punished
(2) is punished
(3) will always be punished...

And has never, is and will never be other than "punished"... :mnah: UNREASONABLE.  :thumbdown:

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 06, 2010, 11:22:53 PM

Quote from: shawn on September 06, 2010, 10:26:07 PMI am trying to take a bigger approach when interpreting...less focus on one or two scriptures and seeing the big picture of salvation.

I agree with that, partly. Surely all verse much align otherwise there is a contradiction in the Bible. But OTOH it's far to often much to easy to misunderstand a key verse without focusing on it.

QuoteThe one things that is VERY difficult for me to get past with ED or ET is the concept of victory.  Satan wants to seperate man from God.

The Calvinist answer to that is that basicly God cretaed a few for Himself and the rest for satan. That basicly means God seperated people at birth.

QuoteIf he succeeds on any level for eternity...how can salvation for some be considered a victory?

Not just any level but "vast majority"

QuoteLogically, ED and ET do not make sense.  How can Satan come in a swipe a good portion of God's creation, envoking his wrath which causes God to destroy the creation he set out to save?

ED makes sense. ED at least teaches the usaved ones, satan and his 'army' are destroyed too.
But in ET satan gets the joy to be ruler of the sinner for eternity. Meaning satan is having lots of fun.

QuoteDoes God win in this scenerio?

I think it's not about winning. God can snap His fingers and satan turns to dust. End of war...
For me the question is: What does God want?
What He wants is what will happen.
UR: Simple. He wants and gets 100%
ED/ET less simple (imo): God elected a few or let free will of man make the choice. -> Whatever the outcome it was what God wanted.

IMO Calvinist thinking leads one to believe God wasn't serious when he said he wanted to save all of mankind.  Since we know this isn't true it brings Calvinist thinking under serious scrutiny.

I disagree about winning and losing.  Maybe not in the traditional since but the word victory is used.  God triumphs.  So, unless God wants certain individuals to perish (which the Bible says he doesn't wish anyone to perish) then these individuals can't perish eternally and that be a victory.  If it can be...my limited finite brain can't wrap it's mind around it.

I'm not a Calvinist, and likely all Calvinists don't hold the exact same views, but this is what I understand from it:
When God created us He from the very start created some for glory and most for destruction. That was a serious action by God. Not just a minstake or being not serious. (that would be an unperfect God)
Yes, God wants the majority to perish because only His elect are selected for glory. God wants noone from His elect to perish. Some Calvinists even state that the torture of the non elect glorifies God.

There are 2 major problems in the above.
If God needs the sinners to glorify Himselfs (even more) it means He's currently not at a perfect level of glorification.
He sent His Son for absolutely no reason because elect=elect and nothing can change that.

There is a reason you can't wrap you brain around it... Flaws and contradictions can be explained away on a per verse ( :laughing7:) basis but as whole it never really seems to fit...