Question regarding Lake of Fire

[Dallas]

Then to get to the right spiritual relationship with God we need to

Hey claypot, this is works! This is text book definition of sin and works. You are seperated from God and need to do something to get right with Him, this statement is why we need Jesus.

Because of Jesus I have the right relationship with God! "For now we come before His throne with great confidence"

Jesus did way more for you than you are giving Him credit for. Trust Him, He has established you.

[Dallas]

Colossians 2:10 "and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; 11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ"

The flesh has been removed and you ARE complete, not going to be, but are.

I think when people speak of 'going to be' they are thinking of the life/death we physically experience right now. I for one do not want to live like I'm living forever even though I know I am perfect in Christ in Gods eyes. Being perfect and being human and dealing with human carnal things is not my idea of being perfect without the extra baggage.

So the scripture says you are complete, God has judged you complete you acknowledge that here, but you eleviate it's power and overrule God. You say that you are complete in God's eyes, but you obviously know better. If God says you are complete you are, but you overrule that and say you aren't.

So who's judgement are you living by, God's that says you are complete or claypot's that says you aren't there quite yet.

[Molly]

Colossians 2:10 "and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; 11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ"

The flesh has been removed and you ARE complete, not going to be, but are.

:thumbsup:

1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

--Rom 8

[Dallas]

Hey Nathan;

If you believe then that your spirit is complete and perfect then what benifit is there for you since you are still a slave to the carnal flesh? That carnal flesh hasmore power over you than even the sacrifice of the cross, or so it seems you preach.

[Molly]

12...and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

--Rev 20




6Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.

7Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,

8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.

--Psa 40

[CHB]

Jesus was flesh, and without sin.  Therefore, flesh in of it's self can not be sin. Like some of you said.... think out of the Heart... Matt 15:18-19 


Paul

Hi Paul,

Jesus carried the worlds sin on his flesh. He destroyed sin in the flesh. If flesh isn't sin Jesus wouldn't have had to become flesh in order to destroy it, would he? He took upon himself our sinful likeness in order to destroy it.

(Rom. 8:3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the LIKENESS OF SINFUL FLESH and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh.

CHB

Yes, Jesus carried the world's sin on his sinless flesh! But only at the cross!

2Co 5:21  He (God)  made Him (Jesus) who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

That was the plan!

Isa 53:10  Yet it pleased the LORD (GOD) to bruise him; he hath put him (Jesus) to grief: when thou shalt make his (Jesus') soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Your getting warmer... CHB   :wink1:

Paul

Hi Paul,

What if the flesh that Jesus was in was sin? Not saying that Jesus sinned because I know he didn't. He was perfect and without sin but couldn't the flesh he was living in be sin if as it says "he was made in the LIKENESS OF SINFUL FLESH"?  Jesus was Spirit before he became human, he just lived in a house of flesh while he was here. The flesh he lived in was like a temporary dwelling place. It seems it would have to be sin in order for him to destroy sin by this flesh?

(1Peter 2:22-24) Who DID NO SIN, neither was guile found in his mouth.

(Heb. 9:28) Who his own self BARE OUR SINS IN HIS OWN BODY ON THE TREE. It says "he shall appear a second time WITHOUT SIN unto salvation." There had to be sin on him for him to destroy it by his death wouldn't you think?

I believe as White Wings said, he had this flesh of sin until he was resurrected.

This is probably getting off topic so I will refrain from further posting on this. Don't know how this subject came up anyway?

CHB

[claypot]

Colossians 2:10 "and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; 11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ"

The flesh has been removed and you ARE complete, not going to be, but are.

I think when people speak of 'going to be' they are thinking of the life/death we physically experience right now. I for one do not want to live like I'm living forever even though I know I am perfect in Christ in Gods eyes. Being perfect and being human and dealing with human carnal things is not my idea of being perfect without the extra baggage.

So the scripture says you are complete, God has judged you complete you acknowledge that here, but you eleviate it's power and overrule God. You say that you are complete in God's eyes, but you obviously know better. If God says you are complete you are, but you overrule that and say you aren't.

So who's judgement are you living by, God's that says you are complete or claypot's that says you aren't there quite yet.

Hey Dallas,

I'm sorry to have confused you with my words. I in no way elevate my beliefs over Gods. Doesn't it even sound ridiculous to say something like that. You know, like me saying, I know more than God. Do you really think I think that? But I understand what you are saying Brother.

Dallas, may I ask, if you could, would you want to live just like you are now forever? Being perfectly and totally justified and perfect in Christ yet living exactly as you are now?

cp

[claypot]

Then to get to the right spiritual relationship with God we need to

Hey claypot, this is works! This is text book definition of sin and works. You are seperated from God and need to do something to get right with Him, this statement is why we need Jesus.

Because of Jesus I have the right relationship with God! "For now we come before His throne with great confidence"

Jesus did way more for you than you are giving Him credit for. Trust Him, He has established you.

We need to.......................

But Dallas you forget that I firmly believe that it is God who works in us to will and TO DO of His good pleasure. When I say 'we need to' I speak as Paul in that it is not we but Christ in us. It is us doing yet not us but God who is working in us to do.

Do you understand this?

Please don't assume things like what I give credit to Jesus for. You have no idea what I give Jesus credit for. I respect what you write. I may not agree with certain things so I seek to understand via discussion but I never want to assume I know fully what you are thinking, I respect you too much for that.

I do trust Jesus and I believe you do too. I have more faith in you it seems than you do in me but that will change as God reveals more of me to you. I believe God has established me so don't concern yourself about that although I thank you for the advice anyway.

cp

[Dallas]

Claypot, by your words you said staright forward, "You need to get right with God"

I'm telling you that because of what Jesus did you are right with God in everyway.

I assume nothing, I am reading what you said, and responding directly to your words, no assuming.

What you said,"

Then to get to the right spiritual relationship with God we need to

No different that, in order to be right with God you need to say the sinnners prayer, tithe, go to church...etc. I am simply identifying what you said, no assuming what you said.

[Nathan]

Hey Nathan;

If you believe then that your spirit is complete and perfect then what benifit is there for you since you are still a slave to the carnal flesh? That carnal flesh hasmore power over you than even the sacrifice of the cross, or so it seems you preach.

It almost feels like you're ignoring the bulk of what is being said in order to continue pushing your point.  For one, I never said that I am still a slave to the flesh, I said when I "chose" to live by my reasoning, that choice results in becoming enslaved to the flesh.  Because my mind is very much influence and can be decieved by the things of the flesh.  That's why I believe we are called to walk in the spirit.  "That" is where our authority and perfection is.

Why would Scripture tell us that our minds need to be renewed daily by the word if we are completely perfect in every way?  

Does not Scripture also say that if anyone is sick, let them come to the elders where they can lay hands on them and through the prayer of faith be healed?  If my entire being is perfect, then why do I need to admit I'm sick?  

Why would we be instructed to take captive our thoughts, if our thoughts are all perfect?

This perfection is spiritual.  The body and soul still need to go through the trials and tribulation for the perfection to manifest completely through us.  I don't discredit the power of the perfecting plan in our lives.  I don't see myself, when it comes to rightstanding with God as imperfect.  I believe God sees me as perfected, in spite of my imperfections.

Let me put it this way . . .current state observations reveal imperfect status.  "Finished state" observation reveals perfect redemption.  Walking in the flesh is walking in current status.  Walking in the spirit is walking in the finished works.  I become what I behold.

[claypot]

Claypot, by your words you said staright forward, "You need to get right with God"

I'm telling you that because of what Jesus did you are right with God in everyway.

I assume nothing, I am reading what you said, and responding directly to your words, no assuming.

What you said,"

Then to get to the right spiritual relationship with God we need to

No different that, in order to be right with God you need to say the sinnners prayer, tithe, go to church...etc. I am simply identifying what you said, no assuming what you said.

I am so sorry for misleading you. I now hope you understand that I definitely do not believe we need to say a sinners prayer or tithe or go to church to be right with God. Do you? I do not go to church in the orthodox way and I don't tithe as the old testament speaks of and I sure do want to be right with God and believe I am.

Please try to give me a little credit when you respond directly to my words and try to realize that, like the Bible, words may have deeper and different meanings than we read on the surface.

cp

[jabcat]

That's why I believe we are called to walk in the spirit.  "That" is where our authority and perfection is.

Why would Scripture tell us that our minds need to be renewed daily by the word if we are completely perfect in every way?  

Does not Scripture also say that if anyone is sick, let them come to the elders where they can lay hands on them and through the prayer of faith be healed?  If my entire being is perfect, then why do I need to admit I'm sick?  

Why would we be instructed to take captive our thoughts, if our thoughts are all perfect?

Amen.   If you are perfect now, you are saying what you are saying in your perfection.  If one is just as perfect as the other, then how can there be any contradiction?  

[claypot]

Dallas, you may not have had time yet or you may have overlooked this question I asked of you and I am truely curious what your answer is. Here it is.......

Dallas, may I ask, if you could, would you want to live just like you are now forever? Being perfectly and totally justified and perfect in Christ yet living exactly as you are now?

cp

[Molly]

This idea of being 'perfect' has, I think, a different definition in the Bible than what we might normally consider.

To be made perfect in the Bible is to be made complete, and to be made complete is to be in union with Christ.

Therefore, whenever I am walking in the Spirit, in union with Christ, I am perfect and complete.  That is not to say that I won't keep learning and growing and becoming more as he is, but that is not the point.  The point is the moment in time that is perfection because of the relationship.


Genesis 6:9
.... Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

[claypot]

Molly, what are you when those moments of perfection are not being realized, when you are not walking in the spirit or in union with Christ?

cp

[Molly]

Molly, what are you when those moments of perfection are not being realized, when you are not walking in the spirit or in union with Christ?

cp

cutoff, lost, dark, confused, fearful, stupid, unloving, obstructed vision, hopeless--

I think the idea is to make those moments less and less and the moments with Christ more and more, which is why Paul is always telling us to renew our minds, to pray ceaselessly, to put on the armor of God and stand.


Philippians 1:21
For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

[claypot]

Molly, what are you when those moments of perfection are not being realized, when you are not walking in the spirit or in union with Christ?

cp

cutoff, lost, dark, confused, fearful, stupid, unloving, obstructed vision, hopeless--

I think the idea is to make those moments less and less and the moments with Christ more and more, which is why Paul is always telling us to renew our minds, to pray ceaselessly, to put on the armor of God and stand.


Philippians 1:21
For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

I agree Molly but I asked because my point is that we are not in a perfect state IMO if we keep going from perfection to imperfection and back again. We will only be in a perfect state when we can remain Christ like in every facet of our being and make-up.

Tis the reason for my question to Dallas a few posts back.

cp

[Dallas]

deleted

[Dallas]

Dallas, may I ask, if you could, would you want to live just like you are now forever? Being perfectly and totally justified and perfect in Christ yet living exactly as you are now?

Sure. Because I will. Like Molly put so well, perfection is not about behavior or growing, it's about being complete and restored back to fellowship and life with God. You will never be perfect in the sense that you won't make mistakes or discoveries beyond yourself.

The bible never makes that an issue, Europen/North American Christianity has.

This idea of being 'perfect' has, I think, a different definition in the Bible than what we might normally consider.

To be made perfect in the Bible is to be made complete, and to be made complete is to be in union with Christ.

Therefore, whenever I am walking in the Spirit, in union with Christ, I am perfect and complete.  That is not to say that I won't keep learning and growing and becoming more as he is, but that is not the point.  The point is the moment in time that is perfection because of the relationship.

-Molly  :thumbsup:


I agree Molly but I asked because my point is that we are not in a perfect state IMO if we keep going from perfection to imperfection and back again. We will only be in a perfect state when we can remain Christ like in every facet of our being and make-up." -claypot


I am Christlike forever, never dip in or out...because Jesus died on the cross I have been remade in His image and likeness for He has clothed me in Christ. My behavior has nothing to do with that, for what the law couldn't do I have obtained in Christ. I am spotless and without blesmish, not in spirit, but in eternity, then now and forever. If the law has taught us one thing, it's not through works that I am made perfect.


Galatians 3:3 "Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?"

[Dallas]

Dallas, may I ask, if you could, would you want to live just like you are now forever? Being perfectly and totally justified and perfect in Christ yet living exactly as you are now?

cp

Let me ask you now, after death when you think you will recieve a body that is without sin, what will be different that you have now? As you said, perfect in spirit already, what will be different? Not a physical end, but a continuing on forever right?

So will be different?

[claypot]

Well the main thing I hope will be different will be the frustrations, guilt, fears, torments I see around me and in me. I hope they will cease to exist in every way.

You want to live exactly like you are living now? You don't experience pain or hurt in any way? What about all the evil that exists around you? Do you consider your existence right now, in all ways, Heaven?

You say perfection is not about behavior or growing. I'm going to think on these words of yours. Is perfection about having peace within? As you look around at all the pain and misery of others do you really have a peace that gives you a perfect tranquil existence?

When you stub your toe do you feel physical pain? I'm serious here.

I am perfect in Christ and in Christ there is no pain and probably no stubbing of toes but I do feel pain now and it ain't Heaven.

Do you experience any frustrations discussing things on this forum?

cp

[claypot]

Dallas, may I ask, if you could, would you want to live just like you are now forever? Being perfectly and totally justified and perfect in Christ yet living exactly as you are now?

cp

Let me ask you now, after death when you think you will recieve a body that is without sin, what will be different that you have now? As you said, perfect in spirit already, what will be different? Not a physical end, but a continuing on forever right?

So will be different?

Dallas, how do you know what I think?

I have to go and I don't know if I responded to your questions properly. Please re-ask if I missed anything. I value your thoughts.

cp

[reFORMer]

To me the difference with the full redemption, that including the body is largely the liberation of the physical from Adamic nature into born of God nature. Put twins side by side.  One is born of Spirit and Godly and the other is wicked and not believing there is a God.  They both look physically alike.  When these bodies of humiliation are transfigured into a body like Jesus' body of glory we will be able to assume physical manifestation of all sorts if we want.  Like God when talking with Moses said something like, "I could've manifested as a ball of fire; but, then you would've been tempted to worship the sun.  So, you saw no form.  You only heard the Word that spoke to you."

As well, the metamorphosis of the body will make it possible to see God as He is and partake directly of the Holy Spirit, not as we do now in promisory foretaste or an "earnest."

[reFORMer]

"Current state" observations reveal imperfect status.  "Finished state" observation reveals perfect redemption.  Walking in the flesh is walking in current status.  Walking in the spirit is walking in the finished works.  I become what I behold.

I intend to memorize that Nathan.  Well put, "...like apples of gold in bowls of silver."

[jabcat]

cp and others, I've just always thought of it as being more "miraculous" than that, more of a consummation done by Him, not so based on my own ability to focus on "the right things".  I am not saying that's not important, I believe it is, just that there's more - that's HE's going to take care of-

19If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.

The Order of Resurrection
20But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
21For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.

22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

23But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,
24then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.

25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

26The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

27For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.

28When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.



30Why are we also in danger every hour?

31I affirm, brethren, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.


33Do not be deceived: "Bad company corrupts good morals."

34Become sober-minded as you ought, and stop sinning; for some have no knowledge of God I speak this to your shame.

35But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?"

36You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies;

37and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else.


40There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another.



42So also is the resurrection of the dead It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;

43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;

44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

45So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL " The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.


49Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.

The Mystery of Resurrection
50Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,

52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

53For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.

55"O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?"

56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law;

57but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your toil is not in vain in the Lord.