Question regarding Lake of Fire

[Pierac]

Jesus was flesh, and without sin.  Therefore, flesh in of it's self can not be sin. Like some of you said.... think out of the Heart... Matt 15:18-19 


Paul

[Raggedy Anne]

Do you believe that all sinners (i.e. everyone) will have to pass through the Lake of Fire, or only those who have not accepted Christ on this side of the grave? I have heard proponents of UR say conflicting things on this, so I just wanted to hear your all's thoughts on it.

Hi Iceman,

I think we are passing through the Lake of Fire as we pass through this world.   
That's the way I see it.  Can't prove it.  The scriptures say that our God is a consuming fire and God is drawing all things into Christ.  I see our experience of walking through mortality as a spiritually fiery experience. 

Anne

[SQ]

Do you believe that all sinners (i.e. everyone) will have to pass through the Lake of Fire, or only those who have not accepted Christ on this side of the grave? I have heard proponents of UR say conflicting things on this, so I just wanted to hear your all's thoughts on it.

Hi Iceman,

I think we are passing through the Lake of Fire as we pass through this world.   
That's the way I see it.  Can't prove it.  The scriptures say that our God is a consuming fire and God is drawing all things into Christ.  I see our experience of walking through mortality as a spiritually fiery experience. 

Anne

This is my understanding also.

[WhiteWings]

Welcome back Anne :thumbsup:

I think we are passing through the Lake of Fire as we pass through this world.  
That's the way I see it.  Can't prove it.  The scriptures say that our God is a consuming fire and God is drawing all things into Christ.  I see our experience of walking through mortality as a spiritually fiery experience.

If LoF is the second death then what is the first death? And the third?
In Revelation dead people are resurrected from their first death. Some/many of them are cast in LoF also called second death. If I follow LoF is now the scenario seems to be:
1- 1st Birth => previous life
2- 1st death => previous life
3- Ressurection (2nd birth) and Judgement
4- Cast into LoF (2nd death) => this life
5- 3rd death -> our exit of this world.

No matter how I look at it; second means there was something before it. Speaking physical or spirtual doesn't change that.
Sounds a bit like reincarnation. I'm not promoting that but it seems to be a conclusion that can/must be drawn from the LoF=now view.
Strickly speaking resurrection is a type reincarnation.

[Apoc]

Here is one teaching that has worked for me...There is a first death, because we were required to be born again.  One life ended, the life of being in Adam.  The second life has begun, life in Christ (the 2nd Adam).  This is also to be said of the world/aion/age.  One ended and the 2nd one began.

Most of that line of thought can be found in the four gospels and a few supporting letters by Paul.  If you are going to try to figure out life and death from literal translations from Revelation...well I think you are in for a wild ride.  It just doesn't compute that way.

[WhiteWings]

That's not the answer either. If LoF is now for the people that went from life in the 1st Adam to life in the 2nd Adam it means most people on this planet are not in LoF because they are not Christians. (including all OT people)
Therefore they will not have their LoF in this life.

[Raggedy Anne]

Welcome back Anne :thumbsup:

I think we are passing through the Lake of Fire as we pass through this world.  
That's the way I see it.  Can't prove it.  The scriptures say that our God is a consuming fire and God is drawing all things into Christ.  I see our experience of walking through mortality as a spiritually fiery experience.

If LoF is the second death then what is the first death? And the third?
In Revelation dead people are resurrected from their first death. Some/many of them are cast in LoF also called second death. If I follow LoF is now the scenario seems to be:
1- 1st Birth => previous life
2- 1st death => previous life
3- Ressurection (2nd birth) and Judgement
4- Cast into LoF (2nd death) => this life
5- 3rd death -> our exit of this world.

No matter how I look at it; second means there was something before it. Speaking physical or spirtual doesn't change that.
Sounds a bit like reincarnation. I'm not promoting that but it seems to be a conclusion that can/must be drawn from the LoF=now view.
Strickly speaking resurrection is a type reincarnation.

Hi White Wings  - thanks for the welcome back.

I think of the first death as being born into this world.  We are born into (subjected) to death in Adam.  I think that applies to everyone who has ever taken on mortality.   So, then perhaps I'm wrong about the lake of fire -- 2nd death.   I don't claim to have all the answers.  I think of the Lake of Fire as being completely immersed in the fire that is God - a complete purification where we no longer have a body of flesh to "hide" ourselves in.   Better to have been hidden in Christ before we don't have these mortal bodies any longer, don't you think?  Work out our salvation with fear and trembling and not be "found naked".   It's very mysterious - for sure.

:gangel:
Anne

[WhiteWings]

I think of the first death as being born into this world.

Meaning pre-existance.

We are born into (subjected) to death in Adam.  I think that applies to everyone who has ever taken on mortality.   So, then perhaps I'm wrong about the lake of fire -- 2nd death.   I don't claim to have all the answers.

Me neither, but it doesn't take a lot of research that not all people die as saints. So if this is the purifying lake many are still very dirty when they exit it. So unless LoF continues after death this life is not LoF of very unsuccesful.

I think of the Lake of Fire as being completely immersed in the fire that is God - a complete purification where we no longer have a body of flesh to "hide" ourselves in.

I think it's something like that.

Better to have been hidden in Christ before we don't have these mortal bodies any longer, don't you think?

Chicken and egg story. You can only be in Christ when you are already (fairly) purified. But if you are not you have no clue you are dirty.

Work out our salvation with fear and trembling and not be "found naked".   It's very mysterious - for sure.

Mysterious, certainly so. Fear and trembling, never really had that feeling. If anything at all "curious"would be the word for me.

[Zeek]

BEFORE the rains came upon the "wicked" in the Noah story; people were living on earth.  If the "rains" are similtude for "lake of fire", then there was a time "they lived" on earth without being "rained upon", ie: "the lake of fire".

BEFORE the "rains came upon Noah", he had a time of "trial", "working out his salvation", knowing he needed to stay faithful to the "end".  THEN the rains came, but at that time; he was protected in the ark.

Psa 11:5  The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Psa 11:6  Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and a horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.

Rom 2:5  But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;


so it seems to me, there is a time; when one is alive on earth, but not in the lake of fire; as it is a "future event".  and when the time comes, ie: the wrath stored up for the DAY of WRATH, then there are those "not hurt", and those "hurt"

[Molly]

I think of the first death as being born into this world.

Meaning pre-existance.

That's so interesting.  As those trapped on top of Everest for the night can attest--dead flesh feels nothing.  So are we born into death?  And it takes a while for the flesh to kill us?  Children do feel very intensely--they are alive.  So is childhood like being trapped on top of Everest?  And we slowly sink into numbness, sleep, and death?  Two births then--one into death and one into life?  Moses came down from the mountain with a heart of stone, capable of breaking into a thousand pieces.  But what is alive doesn't break forever; it heals.


Ezekiel 36:26
I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

[CHB]

Jesus was flesh, and without sin.  Therefore, flesh in of it's self can not be sin. Like some of you said.... think out of the Heart... Matt 15:18-19 


Paul

Hi Paul,

Jesus carried the worlds sin on his flesh. He destroyed sin in the flesh. If flesh isn't sin Jesus wouldn't have had to become flesh in order to destroy it, would he? He took upon himself our sinful likeness in order to destroy it.

(Rom. 8:3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the LIKENESS OF SINFUL FLESH and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh.

CHB

[claypot]

What exactly does it mean to destroy sin in the flesh? I ask respectfully and seriously.

cp

[Molly]

What exactly does it mean to destroy sin in the flesh? I ask respectfully and seriously.

cp

Romans 7:24
What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?



21Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

--Col 1

[claypot]

OK Molly. Hmmmmmm. Maybe could you use laymans terms or maybe I could ask you a question and that would help as Scripture may mean one thing to one and a totally different thing to another.

Are you thinking that 'destroy sin in the flesh' means to makes us sinless in our physical life situation right now?

I really am not getting this yet. Be gentle and patient with me here.

cp

[Molly]

Are you thinking that 'destroy sin in the flesh' means to makes us sinless in our physical life situation right now?

We could look at Abraham, who was pretty much your normal every day guy in terms of sin, but--

Genesis 15:6
.. he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

He believed!  And this belief was counted for righteousness in the sight of God.

God says to Abraham--

Genesis 17:1
And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

"perfect"

H8549
תּמים
tâmıym
taw-meem'
From H8552; entire (literally, figuratively or morally); also (as noun) integrity, truth: - without blemish, complete, full, perfect, sincerely (-ity), sound, without spot, undefiled, upright (-ly), whole.


Could any man walk before God and not be perfect?  It is our union, our reconciliation, with God which makes us perfect, complete, sound, undefiled, whole.

When we are not those things, we are hiding from God, aren't we--like Adam and Eve in the garden--we are naked and know it, so we hide from Satan's accusations.

Who told thee that thou wast naked?
--Gen 3


But, through Christ, we are now reconciled to God, and those moments of the day when we are standing before him, we are most certainly perfect, complete, clothed in the righteousness of Christ.  This reconciliation allows us to stand thusly before God every minute of the day if we so choose, in which case, we would be --yes--I  believe wholly without sin.  Because who could sin, in the sense of separation from God,  in his presence?  We are complete in his presence.

Micah 6:8
He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?


"walk"

H1980
הלך
hâlak
haw-lak'
Akin to H3212; a primitive root; to walk (in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively): - (all) along, apace, behave (self), come, (on) continually, be conversant, depart, + be eased, enter, exercise (self), + follow, forth, forward, get, go (about, abroad, along, away, forward, on, out, up and down), + greater, grow, be wont to haunt, lead, march, X more and more, move (self), needs, on, pass (away), be at the point, quite, run (along), + send, speedily, spread, still, surely, + tale-bearer, + travel (-ler), walk (abroad, on, to and fro, up and down, to places), wander, wax, [way-] faring man, X be weak, whirl.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi sister Anne!  :cloud9:

Do you believe that all sinners (i.e. everyone) will have to pass through the Lake of Fire, or only those who have not accepted Christ on this side of the grave? I have heard proponents of UR say conflicting things on this, so I just wanted to hear your all's thoughts on it.

Hi Iceman,

I think we are passing through the Lake of Fire as we pass through this world.  
That's the way I see it.  Can't prove it.  The scriptures say that our God is a consuming fire and God is drawing all things into Christ.  I see our experience of walking through mortality as a spiritually fiery experience.  

Anne

Me 2!  :happygrin:  Here's how I see it...

J. Preston Eby has observed this (forgive my paraphrase of his words):

A statement can reverse the objects WITHIN IT, without compromising the TRUTH it conveys, such as:

• (1)  ...An ISLAND is a MASS of LAND surrounded by WATER.
• (2)  ...A MASS of LAND surrounded by WATER is an ISLAND.
• (3)  ...An ISLAND surrounded by WATER is a MASS of LAND.

No matter WHEN the articles or objects are presented within the statement, the TRUTH will still be conveyed concerning them...

This same thing can be observed of Revelation 20:14:

• (1) ...DEATH and HELL [grave] were cast into the LAKE OF FIRE.  This is the SECOND DEATH...


• (2) ...This is the SECOND DEATH... DEATH and HELL [grave] were cast into the LAKE of FIRE.


• (3) ...the LAKE of FIRE, the SECOND DEATH is DEATH and HELL [grave] which were cast into it

The REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST... is in fact... the REVELATION of the WORD of GOD...

The WORD of God ...IS... a TIMELESS entity which created ALL THINGS (including TIME and its "forward-only motion") -- John 1:3 -- Heb 13:8 - Col 1:16

Though some might disagree with this, ...One of the facets/aspects of the word "Creation" [#G2936/2937/2938] is "FOUNDING" or "ORDAINANCE"...  

GOD is an UNCHANGING entity... and so anything and everything which emerges from Him (being FOUNDED by HIM / ORDAINED by HIM), has a tie to HIS UNCHANGING characteristic...

In other words... ALL that is manifest as EVIL has ALWAYS been EVIL (according to His knowledge/ordination/founding), ...IS EVIL, ...and shall ALWAYS BE EVIL...  ALL that is manifest as GOOD has ALWAYS been GOOD (according to His knowledge/ordination/founding), ...IS GOOD, ...and shall ALWAYS BE, GOOD...  all of which are ORDAINED / FOUNDED, by Him ...to BE what they ARE... UNCHANGING.

The REVEALING of HIS WORD, therefore is not TIED to TIME... and so the final book of the Bible, where TIME positioning is NOTED... is a NOW thing, not future or past... to include the notation of the LOF... and all which find a place within it.

Which is why -- NOW is the "ACCEPTED TIME" --  NOW is the DAY of Salvation -- 2 Cor 6:2 -- NOW is the JUDGMENT of this WORLD -- NOW is the prince of this world [satan/adversity] CAST OUT -- John 12:31 ...etc.

Peace... :Peace:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

[CHB]

•(1) ...DEATH and HELL [grave] were cast into the LAKE OF FIRE.  This is the SECOND DEATH...
•(2) ...This is the SECOND DEATH... DEATH and HELL [grave] were cast into the LAKE of FIRE.
•(3) ...the LAKE of FIRE, the SECOND DEATH is DEATH and HELL [grave] which were cast into it

Hi willie!!

In other words you are saying that when death and the grave are cast into the LOF it is the death of death? Correct me if I am wrong here.

Is this death a spiritual death and a literal death, or just a literal death? One can be spiritually dead and physically dead, is this the death of ALL kinds of death or just the physical death?

CHB

[Pierac]

Jesus was flesh, and without sin.  Therefore, flesh in of it's self can not be sin. Like some of you said.... think out of the Heart... Matt 15:18-19 


Paul

Hi Paul,

Jesus carried the worlds sin on his flesh. He destroyed sin in the flesh. If flesh isn't sin Jesus wouldn't have had to become flesh in order to destroy it, would he? He took upon himself our sinful likeness in order to destroy it.

(Rom. 8:3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the LIKENESS OF SINFUL FLESH and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh.

CHB

Yes, Jesus carried the world's sin on his sinless flesh! But only at the cross!

2Co 5:21  He (God)  made Him (Jesus) who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

That was the plan!

Isa 53:10  Yet it pleased the LORD (GOD) to bruise him; he hath put him (Jesus) to grief: when thou shalt make his (Jesus') soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Your getting warmer... CHB   :wink1:

Paul

[Beloved Servant]

My  :2c: but:

I don't think God fertilized one of Mary's eggs.
He is the second Adam; a new Creation.
His flesh was, is and will remain sinless.

[WhiteWings]

Yes, Jesus carried the world's sin on his sinless flesh! But only at the cross!

From moment He was handed over, until His resurrection. IMO
He was "in the earth" for three days and nights. I came to believe that means submerged into sin/death/evil. Not just being buried.

[Nathan]

Whew .. .what a whirlwind of conversation!  Second death . . .death and the grave being thrown into the lake of fire.  What is death?  To me, it's not absence of life, it is simply "separation".  In a sense, being "holy" is expereincing a form of death.  It's a separation from the world of death even though we live "in" death.

When did the first death occur?  For me, it was in the garden.  Man was separated from God.  Did this mean that God could no longer converse with man?  Or man with God?  Of course not.  It meant man no longer "lived" in the spirit realm "with" God.  He was separated from the presence of God, from the abode of God, but not from God himself.  When I'm on the highest mountain, he is there . . .when I'm in the lowest valley he is there.  Nothing can separate us from God's love.  Death can not affect or sever the reach of God's love to and for us.

This realm is a death realm.  The first thing man does when they are born here is begin the dying process.  Remember when Jesus was calling disciples to follow after him and one said he needed to first go bury his father?  His response was let the dead bury the dead.  Let the spiritual dead bury the physical dead.  There were two deaths he was dealing with there.

What the lake of fire does for me is it consumes the realm of separation.  It brings death to death.  It's the finality of the overall plan of God which is to have the entire body of Christ live "in" him and He in us.  In order to do that, he will have to remove the realm that separates us from him . . .which is this natural realm . . .and all things will return to their original order. 

The knowledge of the Lord will cover the earth as the waters cover the sea.  You ever think about that?  How can the waters cover the sea when the sea consists of the water covering it?  It's an "all in all" principle being made manifest.  In other words, this realm we only see in part is going to be realigned to it's original state to where spirit returns to dominance and natural returns to invisible.   In the spirit realm is the atmosphere of the presence of God.  In this earth, we see his signs, but in the spirit the very atmosphere "is" his presence.  That's how the knowledge can cover the earth as water covers the sea . . .this realm will reverse it's order with the spirit realm and what is predominantly natural now will be predominantly spiritual "then".

The second death is the end of separation between man and God.

[Dallas]

Colossians 2:10 "and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; 11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ"

The flesh has been removed and you ARE complete, not going to be, but are.

[claypot]

That truely resonates with me Nathan. You got good words there!

I too see us as dead...........let the dead bury the dead, Jesus said. This is the first death. Then to get to the right spiritual relationship with God we need to die to this death we are in..............a second death. After this second death there is only life forevermore!

cp

[claypot]

Colossians 2:10 "and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; 11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ"

The flesh has been removed and you ARE complete, not going to be, but are.

I think when people speak of 'going to be' they are thinking of the life/death we physically experience right now. I for one do not want to live like I'm living forever even though I know I am perfect in Christ in Gods eyes. Being perfect and being human and dealing with human carnal things is not my idea of being perfect without the extra baggage.

cp

[Nathan]

The completion you're speaking of and the Scripture you're using to support it especially, is indicating it's a spiritual perfection rather than a physical one.  The circumcision made without hands . . .it's a spiritual experience.  

This physical body is still decaying. It's still manifesting imperfections.  But I think that's the whole point.  God pays no attention to our natural issues.  It's not this body that he perfected.  It's the spirit within it.  My spirit is made complete in him.  My mind is to be renewed daily . . .and my body will experience the same transformation from temperal to eternal when this realm finishes the course God set it on.  

1 John 3 . . .this will mess you up!!
9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

I love preaching that just to see the responses on people's faces if for no other reason.  But the point I believe being made here is  . .when we become born again, our perspective on sin changes.  God doesn't see my faults, he sees his Son, the light of his own heart beating in mine.  We measure righteousness by natural activity.  But we measure with reasoning and natural logic.  We measure what's on the outside of people.

Only God measures the heart and his ruler is not one that is of controlling judgment, but Jesus is his plumb line by which he measures our worthiness.  I do fleshly things on this earth because I still live in this temporary body of flesh which is very much influnced by fleshly things.  But my spirit is a whole other matter.  

My spirit is what is immediately affected by the blood of the Lamb which is no longer indentifying with the sweat (labor) of my face (identity) which is what became the predominant factor of Adam.  There was a transformation as to how Adam would recieve his food.  No longer would it come from the fruit of the spirit/trees in the garden, but now it would only come through the laboring mind.  That was part of the curse to living in this realm  Everything would be required to be filtered through the mind.  

That's what the crown of thorns represtent.  The curse of the mind.  But my spirit was not created as the weaker of the two.  "I" was given the ability to appoint authority either to my mind or my spirit.  But only my spirit had the authority over my mind.  If I chose to walk in the spirit, then I walked in a higher authority over my filtering mind.  But if I chose to walk according to my mind, I couldn't walk in authority because that's only in the spirit.  So when I chose to live in my mind, I became a slave to my own thinking.

"That's" what Jesus reversed.  Sin didn't begin with disobedience.  Disobedience was the evidence that the misalignment had already transpired.  Sin began the moment Adam turned from life and turned "to" knowledge.  But walking in the spirit is reversing the curse of that alignment in every one of us so that our natural actions are not what bring us our redemption.  Our redemption is to our spiritual alignment within.  Which affects our actions without, but not as immediate as it has to our spirit within.