Tentmaker Forum

Do you believe that all sinners (i.e. everyone) will have to pass through the Lake of Fire, or only those who have not accepted Christ on this side of the grave? I have heard proponents of UR say conflicting things on this, so I just wanted to hear your all's thoughts on it.

^KJVMar 9:48-50 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
50 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.

Quote from: IceMan84 on April 05, 2010, 05:38:30 AM
Do you believe that all sinners (i.e. everyone) will have to pass through the Lake of Fire, or only those who have not accepted Christ on this side of the grave? I have heard proponents of UR say conflicting things on this, so I just wanted to hear your all's thoughts on it.

There are different ideas on this but my personal opinion is, the lake of fire is a learning experience that brings us to the point of denying ourselves, that is the death of Adam in us. I believe some will experience this in this life and others will later. The lake of fire and the second death are connected. As far as I understand now, the second death is being dead to sin and being dead in Christ. Paul said he was "dead but yet lived but yet not I, but Christ lives in me". I believe Paul experienced the second death and the lake of fire.

It seems to me that all will come to the point of where Paul was in his understanding, to do this it would seem that there will come a time when all will be taught and learn what Paul understood. it says in Jer. 31:34 that "for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them". You would think that this isn't so in this day and age and that there will come a time when the whole earth will be taught the truth.  I do believe this learning experience that can cause a weeping and gnashing of teeth, is the lake of fire. Just my understanding at this time.

CHB 

Quote from: CHB on April 05, 2010, 06:16:18 PM

Quote from: IceMan84 on April 05, 2010, 05:38:30 AM
Do you believe that all sinners (i.e. everyone) will have to pass through the Lake of Fire, or only those who have not accepted Christ on this side of the grave? I have heard proponents of UR say conflicting things on this, so I just wanted to hear your all's thoughts on it.

There are different ideas on this but my personal opinion is, the lake of fire is a learning experience that brings us to the point of denying ourselves, that is the death of Adam in us. I believe some will experience this in this life and others will later. The lake of fire and the second death are connected. As far as I understand now, the second death is being dead to sin and being dead in Christ. Paul said he was "dead but yet lived but yet not I, but Christ lives in me". I believe Paul experienced the second death and the lake of fire.

It seems to me that all will come to the point of where Paul was in his understanding, to do this it would seem that there will come a time when all will be taught and learn what Paul understood. it says in Jer. 31:34 that "for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them". You would think that this isn't so in this day and age and that there will come a time when the whole earth will be taught the truth.  I do believe this learning experience that can cause a weeping and gnashing of teeth, is the lake of fire. Just my understanding at this time.

CHB  

This is how I understand it also.

Quotelake of fire is a learning experience

Hey CHB;

Now I understand this is a very commmon UR belief, how does it walk out in scripture though? You make congeture but without any type of biblical concept.

Is this more of just what you see from where you are at, or do you have bible support?

Hi Dallas,

Well, I could have looked up a lot of verses to go with what I wrote but at the time I didn't have much time so I just wrote it the way I saw it.

Tell me how you see this?

CHB

The lake of Fire is again as I always say concearning the Hebrew people.

Right from Deuteronomy language was started explaining that God was going to judge Israel with fire and they would be ultimatley destroyed by fire, them and the religous system they had.

They had a system that if you do good you live and if you do bad you die. The lake of fire IS the second death, the removing of this system. It is the final plunge of fire judgement that brought the end to the religous system that brings death.

The result of Judeaism being removed, their temple and holy city, removed cause in effect the inability to gain righeousness through the law thus eliminating the ability to die.

For I was alive once then the law came and I died- Paul, Romans.

Now that the people and the law are dead so is death, for where there is no law there can be no transgression. Sin was delt with with Jesus' sacrifice and through the judgement of fire, the lake of fire delt with the structure and system.

Quote from: Dallas on April 06, 2010, 12:58:40 AM
The lake of Fire is again as I always say concearning the Hebrew people.

I would agree with you except for one thing. Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles. I know, he went to the Jew first but turned to the Gentile. In (1Cor. 3:13) we find Paul speaking of every man's works being tried by fire. This is a verse I believe that is connected to the Lake of Fire. I do believe this is New Covenant teaching here though.

Quote from: Dallas
Right from Deuteronomy language was started explaining that God was going to judge Israel with fire and they would be ultimatley destroyed by fire, them and the religous system they had.

They had a system that if you do good you live and if you do bad you die. The lake of fire IS the second death, the removing of this system. It is the final plunge of fire judgement that brought the end to the religous system that brings death.

I agree with this.

Quote from: Dallas
The result of Judeaism being removed, their temple and holy city, removed cause in effect the inability to gain righeousness through the law thus eliminating the ability to die.

For I was alive once then the law came and I died- Paul, Romans.

Yes, Paul is speaking of being spiritually dead to sin and law. As I said, "everyone will eventually come to this point.

Quote from: Dallas
Now that the people and the law are dead so is death, for where there is no law there can be no transgression. Sin was delt with with Jesus' sacrifice and through the judgement of fire, the lake of fire delt with the structure and system.

Although sin and law was dealt with, we still have sin and law in the world today. People still keep the old laws of Moses and as long as we are flesh sin will be in the world.  Isn't this a progressive work anyway? I don't think God is finished with us yet, else we would all be immortal.

CHB

QuoteYes, Paul is speaking of being spiritually dead to sin and law. As I said, "everyone will eventually come to this point.

Because this was an actual event that happened it's not a spiritual teaching, but historical. Yes it's a good church teaching, but not in the sense of continuing but in the understanding that because it happened things have changed. We don't and no one else will go through it, it happened. As a result of it happening things will change. People won't continue to go through the lake of fire to learn, but because the lake of fire happened people are going to change.

QuoteAlthough sin and law was dealt with, we still have sin and law in the world today. People still keep the old laws of Moses and as long as we are flesh sin will be in the world.  Isn't this a progressive work anyway? I don't think God is finished with us yet, else we would all be immortal.

Elvis is dead, yet people still claim to see him alive, but we know that is people who aren't willing to acknowledge the truth. But people still listen to his music, but that doesn't mean he is still alive. Just because people still try to live by the law doesn't mean it has power, it's just people holding onto a dead singer.

Sin is only imputed where there is a law, as Paul wrote Even though there was death in the world between Adam and Moses sin was never attributed to them because there was no law telling of it. Just as there is no law telling us, I would like to know how you know there is sin in the world? As far as flesh, the body of flesh has been removed, no one is anylonger in the flesh, (if you want start a thread and I'll show what the flesh is concearning, it will be completly shocking, you will never read the bible the same way.)

God isn't Finished with us yet....as far as sin is concearned YES HE IS. Now we can start living salvation....not going to heaven, but being included into the things of God and be included in what He's doing and living in complete joy,peace and righteousness.

He says: "The Lake of Fire and Brimstone signifies a fire burning with brimstone; the word 'brimstone' or sulphur defines the character of the fire. The Greek word THEION translated 'brimstone' is exactly the same word THEION which means 'divine.' Sulphur was sacred to the deity among the ancient Greeks; and was used to fumigate, to purify, and to cleanse and consecrate to the deity; for this purpose they burned it in their incense. In Homer's Iliad (16:228), one is spoken of as purifying a goblet with fire and brimstone. The verb derived from THEION is THEIOO, which means to hallow, to make divine, or to dedicate to a god (See Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon, 1897 Edition). To any Greek, or any trained in the Greek language, a 'lake of fire and brimstone' would mean a 'lake of divine purification.' The idea of judgment need not be excluded. Divine purification and divine consecration are the plain meaning in ancient Greek. In the ordinary explanation, this fundamental meaning of the word is entirely left out, and nothing but eternal torment is associated with it"

By John Preston Eby, The Lake Of Fire pg. 13

Quotea 'lake of fire and brimstone' would mean a 'lake of divine purification.

it actually doesnt even say lake, just says devine burning

I "think" his writings are geared towards the old King James Diehards. That is why he states it thus

Quote from: CHB on April 06, 2010, 02:02:12 AM
Although sin and law was dealt with, we still have sin and law in the world today. People still keep the old laws of Moses and as long as we are flesh sin will be in the world.  Isn't this a progressive work anyway? I don't think God is finished with us yet, else we would all be immortal.

Even though Paul didn't keep the old Laws of Moses, understanding that salvation was a gift by grace through faith (given by God) - he still was looking forward to being delivered from the sin of his flesh.  He spoke of "the sin dwelling in me", "the law of sin and death" working in him; warned that we should not "sin so that grace may abound", and discussed willfully sinning.  He said Jesus would deliver him from the sinfulness that still worked within him.

I do agree we can live victoriously by realizing that despite the weaknesses of the flesh, God's grace is stronger.  He forgives, forgets, and provides the power to overcome.  He has sealed the believer with the Holy Spirit of promise and is the Beginner and Completer of our faith.  Paul said, "if I do the things I don't want to do, then it is no longer I that do them, but the sin that dwells in me".  I ponder over that statement.   He had experienced the new birth - old things were passing away and all things becoming new.  Perhaps he was going through the "lake of fire" while he lived as a believer, to not then be hurt of the second death - as opposed to unbelievers who are yet to be brought to the place of kneeling and confessing.  Much to consider.

P.S.  Just read/re-read your first post in this thread C - seems like we're kind of hitting on some of the same points - again.  :wink1:

Quote from: Novus-Ordo-Seclorum7 on April 06, 2010, 04:40:22 AM
I "think" his writings are geared towards the old King James Diehards. That is why he states it thus

J. Preston does have a rather interesting writing style.   :bigGrin:   Whether it matters or not, he's an older gentleman, s/w from the "old school".  Anyway, I did some checking, and the word 'limnEn' is in the greek (Greek Interlinear), which means lake or pond - if you're talking about the Rev. 19:20 passage.  The Christian Bible (extremely literal to the Koine Greek) translates the second part of that verse as "...these two were thrown alive into the Lake of Fire that burns with Sulphur [to be destroyed in the Second Death].

Interesting note that Tony (White Wings) has pointed out to me about the Christian Bible - notice the capitalization of Lake of Fire and Sulphur.  We've both wondered if that indicates Deity, i.e., proper "names".  But then I see that Second Death is also capitalized, so I'm not sure then what that indicates.   :scratchhead: 

Tony?

Quote from: jabcat on April 06, 2010, 11:03:31 AM
Interesting note that Tony (White Wings) has pointed out to me about the Christian Bible - notice the capitalization of Lake of Fire and Sulphur.  We've both wondered if that indicates Deity, i.e., proper "names".  But then I see that Second Death is also capitalized, so I'm not sure then what that indicates.   :scratchhead: 

Tony?

My specialization is shallow ponds  :winkgrin:

I got two answers for you.
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=7579.0
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=6864.msg76392#msg76392

The above perhaps gives some insight in what the lake is.
But why Second Death is capitalized....?
God has two sides.
He the God of love. But also of wrath. => first overcomes second.
So perhaps that death is also divine but overcome by good? => Yes I know God is not the God of the dead...
Revelation is the grand finale of Fathers Master Plan. So He's very busy doing things. All divine things with divine (temp) consequences.
And what exactly is 2nd death? Father being actively or passively involved?

Quote from: jabcat on April 06, 2010, 10:43:21 AM

Quote from: CHB on April 06, 2010, 02:02:12 AM
Although sin and law was dealt with, we still have sin and law in the world today. People still keep the old laws of Moses and as long as we are flesh sin will be in the world.  Isn't this a progressive work anyway? I don't think God is finished with us yet, else we would all be immortal.

Even though Paul didn't keep the old Laws of Moses, understanding that salvation was a gift by grace through faith (given by God) - he still was looking forward to being delivered from the sin of his flesh.  He spoke of "the sin dwelling in me", "the law of sin and death" working in him; warned that we should not "sin so that grace may abound", and discussed willfully sinning.  He said Jesus would deliver him from the sinfulness that still worked within him.

I do agree we can live victoriously by realizing that despite the weaknesses of the flesh, God's grace is stronger.  He forgives, forgets, and provides the power to overcome.  He has sealed the believer with the Holy Spirit of promise and is the Beginner and Completer of our faith.  Paul said, "if I do the things I don't want to do, then it is no longer I that do them, but the sin that dwells in me".  I ponder over that statement.   He had experienced the new birth - old things were passing away and all things becoming new.  Perhaps he was going through the "lake of fire" while he lived as a believer, to not then be hurt of the second death - as opposed to unbelievers who are yet to be brought to the place of kneeling and confessing.  Much to consider.

P.S.  Just read/re-read your first post in this thread C - seems like we're kind of hitting on some of the same points - again.  :wink1:

Hi jabcat,

Yes, you said it perfectly. I was going to comment on this very thing about Paul having gone through the fire and second death and will not be hurt nor will it have any power over him. I think the whole world will have to come to this point. Else why the bowing of the knee or confessing of the tongue? If no one sins or all is finished why the need to confess?

CHB

QuoteElse why the bowing of the knee or confessing of the tongue? If no one sins or all is finished why the need to confess?

There is a difference between the believer and the non-believer, that's why. Our disagreement is you seem to think that something happens to a person when they confess that some kind of saving power comes over them. That simply isn't true.

The only thing that happens is when someone doesn't acknowledge the truth they don't live in it.... If I believe it's going to rain I dress as if it's going to rain and if I don't think it's going to rain I dress as if it isn't.

God has done everything, settled everything in Christ on the cross, if I don't believe it I will live as if it isn't all completed, If I do acknowledge the truth of it I will live to that truth and then the benifits of believing come through.


There are multitudes who don't believe what God has done in Jesus, they aren't benifiting from it, but they will and between now and the they will still have all the same things from God as when they come to realize the truth.

Because our understanding of what sin is we differ on what it's effects are, af far as I know you see sin as the bad things people do right?

Where I believe the bible shows us that bad behavior is the sign that sin is in us. When a person murders, that killing they did wasn't sin, but it was the sign the person has sin.

What is it those who are bowing their knees are to be confessing?  They're not confessing their sin, they are confessing Jesus is Lord.  What I see happening is connected to the day of the Sabbath where the rules have all changed.  In the days leading up to the Sabbath, men were to gather their daily manna on their own according to the size of their family, according to the maturity of their relationship in Christ.  On the sixth day, they didn't have to work twice as hard to get a double portion.  There was simply twice as much available to them.  It was all in preparation for the Sabbath.

On the Sabbath the rules are all the opposite than they were for every day leading up to the Sabbath.  There is no gathering, there is no labor, there is only Rest.  It's all a spiritual principle in these matters.  We are now entering into the "realm" of the Sabbath and the rules have changed from achieving knowledge about God through our laboring minds, into simply receiving revelation from God through submitted minds.

Every bowed knee is not coming by brute force, it's coming by divine revelation.  Jesus is being revealed, not an image of him the church immulates, but the true nature of Jesus is being revealed and people are dropping to their knees like ripe fruit from a tree.  They are seeing the truth of the nature of Jesus and their responses are ones of humility and unity.  That's the confession part, the confession is speaking out that which is truth in spirit is becoming truth in the flesh.  The spirit and flesh are becoming one.

Again, just my perspective is all.

Amen, God is doing away with all mixture of the Word.

1 John 2: 27; And the anointing which you obtained from Him is remaining in you, and you have no need that anyone may be teaching you, but as His anointing is teaching you concerning all, and is true, and is no lie, according as it teaches you also, remain in Him.

The soul is being silenced to the truth of His Spirit in His Image.

The anointing within the most Holy Place can not leave you.

Absolutely agree . . .nothing can separate the heart (holy of holies) of God from us.

Quotenothing can separate the heart (holy of holies) of God from us

.

Absolutley, that is true for every single person right now, everyone has that....not everyone believes that. There won't be a day that includes someone new for the spirit of God has been poured out on all mankind Acts2.

But everyday people are waking up to that truth.

Hi Dallas and All,

Dallas, I agree with a lot of what you say here. I realize the knowing and not knowing is the key. How did we come to know what we know and didn't we have to change our minds, or I should say God changed our minds? Yes, all will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord but won't that take a realization of who we are and have been to come to this realization? Isn't that kind of a repentance of our past knowledge to recognize who Christ really is? Are you not a different person from who you were before the bowing of the knee and confessing of the tongue? Don't you think that as long as we are in this flesh we are sin? Isn't the flesh itself sin? Isn't that what David meant when he said "(Psalms 51:5) Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; AND IN SIN DID MY MOTHER CONCEIVE ME.

Just think, there are thousands of people who have never heard of Christ, all those who were born before Christ walked the earth and babies who know nothing about salvation or sin. I believe there has to come a time when these people will need to learn of salvation and who Christ is in order for them to know to bow the knee and confess that Jesus is lord. In the process of this learning don't you think that they will have trials and troubles the same as you and I? Won't they have to learn just like we have? Don't you think that they will have to experience the fire of God and dying to self and sin just like we have?

I know that you believe all things have been fulfilled. I believe that we are in the process but haven't gotten to the end yet, else we would all be immortal now.  I believe that all in all is still in the future. I think some were chosen to understand now and some much later. Until all comes to this same understanding the world will be in a mess and I do not see people falling to their knees and acknowledging Christ as you say. I see the world getting worse and worse with murders, rapes, stealing, lying, idol worshipping, you name it. It will take Christ returning to straighten out this mess the world is in. Only a very few know about the salvation of all, don't you think everyone should come to this knowledge?

CHB

For me bro, that is what is happening now.  Christ has been, is and will continue to come back.  He's approaching all on an individual basis.  He came to Paul, he came to John, he's come to me, he's come to you.  It's been just as God proclaimed it.  In Genesis 6 where he said he wouldn't strive with many any longer but that his years would be 120.  We assume those are by our measurement.  But God's only measurement is his Son.  When we learn who his Son is in terms of days and years, we understand the proclamations given. 

In this case, Jesus is the day . . .great, but that doesn't help the equasion.  Okay, he is the Sabbath  . . now we're getting closer but Jesus is more than just he Sabbath, he's the Sabbath of Sabbaths.  That was what he came to proclaim.  This is the favorable year of the Lord.  That is the year of the Sabbath.  It comes every 50 years.  After 7 Sabbath years comes the year of jubilee.  Jesus "is" the Jubilee.

Now, we're getting somewhere.  Using that in the equasion, taking the 120 years God proclaimed, times 50, the year of Jubilee, and strangely enough, the sum is 6000.  Which is six days.  Then it starts to fall into place.  What causes man to wrestle with God in the first place?  Is it not the "laboring" mind?  God labored for six days, then rested on the Sabbath.  Man labored with kingdom principles for 6000 years, but we are entering into the Sabbath year where these kingdom principles are now being revealed.

No longer are we being required to spend hours and hours with our noses in concordances and translations.  Now, all that's required is relationship with the Son. When we enter into a simple relationship with the Son, the Father then reveals the mysteries directly to us and revelation begins to manifest in us and through us.  As we see his kingdom come, we speak what we see and release that which is in the unseen realm, to this realm where beliefs are built on what is seen.  Which isn't the actual intent God has in mind.  My belief is to be built on faith, not proof of Script or sight.  Proof is not faith.

Nonetheless, we can enter into the kingdom and these things will begin becoming real and relevant to us as we become more willing to receive more stuff we just can't fully understand.  UR is just the tip of the ice burg here.  There's a whole realm yet to be experienced by those who are willing to rely on what can't be seen and let go of what actually got them here.  Logically, one could easily argue this kind of thought, but it's not really a debatable issue.  It's like salvation or anything else.  We can debate whether or not it's real, or fake, but it doesn't change the truth of what it is either way.

QuoteHi Dallas and All,

Dallas, I agree with a lot of what you say here. I realize the knowing and not knowing is the key. How did we come to know what we know and didn't we have to change our minds, or I should say God changed our minds? Yes, all will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord but won't that take a realization of who we are and have been to come to this realization? Isn't that kind of a repentance of our past knowledge to recognize who Christ really is? Are you not a different person from who you were before the bowing of the knee and confessing of the tongue? Don't you think that as long as we are in this flesh we are sin? Isn't the flesh itself sin? Isn't that what David meant when he said "(Psalms 51:5) Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; AND IN SIN DID MY MOTHER CONCEIVE ME.

Just think, there are thousands of people who have never heard of Christ, all those who were born before Christ walked the earth and babies who know nothing about salvation or sin. I believe there has to come a time when these people will need to learn of salvation and who Christ is in order for them to know to bow the knee and confess that Jesus is lord. In the process of this learning don't you think that they will have trials and troubles the same as you and I? Won't they have to learn just like we have? Don't you think that they will have to experience the fire of God and dying to self and sin just like we have?

I know that you believe all things have been fulfilled. I believe that we are in the process but haven't gotten to the end yet, else we would all be immortal now.  I believe that all in all is still in the future. I think some were chosen to understand now and some much later. Until all comes to this same understanding the world will be in a mess and I do not see people falling to their knees and acknowledging Christ as you say. I see the world getting worse and worse with murders, rapes, stealing, lying, idol worshipping, you name it. It will take Christ returning to straighten out this mess the world is in. Only a very few know about the salvation of all, don't you think everyone should come to this knowledge?

CHB

Hello; I love this, this to me is just awesome, I love talking to you because you are quite real and open and not argumentative. Love you CHB.


I want to discuss this, I will start a new thread so we don't hijack.

Hi Dallas,

I don't ever want to be argumentive just searching for knowledge I don't have. Just trying to get to the truth.

I would like to hear what you have to say on this subject. Not saying I will agree with everything but I do respect your view and like I said I do agree with a lot that you said here.  :gimmefive:

CHB

CHB ?

How can the flesh be sin??

I was always taught that Sin was the Braking of God's Law!

I know that another Jew once said that he thought that "knowing to do good and not do it is Sin" (James) but it really reverts back to knowing God's Law.

a new order

HI CHB.
I've always saw the flesh itself as the sin we wear.
The result of missing the mark of the high calling in God.
The moment we are born we are dying to the law of sin and death working in us.
Our forefather Adam was cut of from the I AM when he sought himself and the garden was enclosed with them outside.
But thank God the river runs out again from the garden, under the threshold, so deep we can swim in it.

http://video.aol.com/video-detail/i-am-mark-schultz/2305843010014560090/?icid=VIDURVMUS01

I never get tired of that song.. :HeartThrob:

Hi Beloved Servant & Norvus,

I believe Eve sinned before she ever partook of the tree of knowledge of good and evil of which God said "thou shalt not eat". I believe BS got it right by saying "I've always saw the flesh itself as the sin we wear".

Where does sin come from? Isn't it from our minds, hands, hearts, eyes, thoughts, our bodies which is flesh.?

CHB

Yes, the 5 physical senses that are lorded over by Eve, our soul, the silly woman.
But praise God we are invited to a wedding feast of Unity with the Lamb ending the duality of the split of Adam and Eve.

It is wonderful to note, here, that in the days of Noah that God saved 8 souls (new beginnings).
The Hebrew Lexicon says this: Ararat = "the curse reversed."
For God so loved the world...
He took on flesh (sin) and redeemed it unto Himself.
His plan, all along, was to join Spirit and flesh, tabernacle within man.
A glorious NEW CREATION!!!

(Rom. 8:3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the LIKENESS OF SINFUL FLESH, and for sin, CONDEMNED SIN IN THE FLESH.  
Heb. says" by a sacrifice for sin."

What I get from all this is, it is the flesh that is sin, the law just makes us aware of our sins. Paul said " I wouldn't have know sin but by the law". So, we are only aware of sin because the law says it is sin. Hope that made sense.

CHB  

So many places to go with all of these wonderful comments.  Adam and Eve's experience is such a gold mine of truth and pattern.  As I'm sure everyone is aware, due to previous conversations in this same subject in the past, Eve never actually fell until Adam ate.  She ate first and nothing happened. 

She was decieved and her mind actually caused her to see a false image right at the start.  First she saw it was good for food.  Problem was, she never should have seen it in that perspective in the first place because God already instructed them not to eat of it and already, she was justifying it's presence. 

Next, it was pleasant to the eyes.  The eyes are the windows to our soul.  She already "reasoned" it would be good to eat, then she became lustful toward it and next, her faith kicked in.  But it was not faith inspired by spirit.  instead it was faith from another source.  Her own mind imagined that this would make her wise.  She had not yet become as wise as she was imagining and through this, she imagined she would be as God. 

In the New Testament is a popular passage tradition embraces as a foundational passage that supports the rapture/tribulation and so forth.  It's dealing with the abomination of desolation standing in the temple.  Only problem with their doctrine on this is, the word "temple" there is not dealing with brick and mortar.  It's other usage came when Paul declared "what?  Know ye not that you are a temple of the holy ghost?"

Which would bring this all back around full circle in seeing it's our own carnal "self" that stands in the temple.  Meaning we've put ourselves in the position where only God is to be.  Which is what Eve is epitomizing.  Her desire to become wise like God is simply reflecting how carnality works in us.  So, with that image being projected in her mind, she acted on that faith.  Only thing was, once the transformation happened, it had nothing to do with wisdom, and everything to do with judgment, nakedness and shame.

Flesh is sin . . .my carnal self is sin . . .this realm is sin . .it's all influenced by death and decaying.  We focus on this realm, it affects our spiritual vision of light.  We emphasize the power of sin, it affects our ablity to release light and life. 

For me, the fall didn't stem from Eve eating the fruit as much as it does from Adam receiving it from Eve.  That's where things began to go down.  There was a comment about the ark of Noah coming to rest (I love that because "Noah" means rest, so you have rest, coming to rest . . that's just so cool) on Mt. Ararat which really does mean the curse is reversed.  But what is it that's being reverse?  What is the curse?

I don't see sin as the curse.  I see sin as the evidence the curse is in effect.  For me, the curse is when Adam received from Eve the fruit of carnality.  He was to rule over her.  He had authority over her.  Spirit rules over flesh.  But he didn't exercise that authority and instead of subduing, he submitted and "that's" when the alignment left it's original order and "that's" what the picture of Ararat was reversing.  God is restoring spiritual order in man back to it's original alignment where spirit once again has dominion over flesh. 

It's about my carnal mind always wanting to feed my spirit natural reasoning.  Knowledge of good and evil.  Surely everyone wants to do what's good, right?  Well how are you going to do good if you don't "know" what good is?  That's how our mind works.  It almost uses intimidation by applying it's own logic and it brings confusion into the argument. 

Walking in the spirit is walking beyond the limitations of knowing.  Ever wonder why Jesus had to wear a crown of thorns to the cross?  He took the curse of the mind with him.

Yes Nathan
God is restoring order.
For since Adam — Eve has ruled.
In the flesh the soul governs the body.

Quote from: CHB on April 10, 2010, 09:23:30 PM

Where does sin come from? Isn't it from our minds, hands, hearts, eyes, thoughts, our bodies which is flesh.?

CHB

and the enemies of a man are those of his household. matt10.36

For from within,  out   of   the   heart   of  men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,  22  Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: {covetousness...: Gr. covetousnesses, wickednesses}  23  All these evil things come from within, and defile  the  man. mark 7.21

This sums it quite well for me.

Very good thread everyone.

cp

where did sin come from?

Sin came from disbelief. In the garden man and woman were in complete fellowship, completley revealed (naked) with God and had no shame. God made them in His likeness and image, but the serpent lied to them saying "that God' knows in the day you eat from it you will be like Him."

Eve stopped believing God, and believed the serpent. She believed that she wasn't like God and needed to become like God.

That is what sin is. Disbelieving what God has said about you and trying to become like Him.

What was the consequence, They hid from His presence in shame. Death!

Quote from: Dallas on April 18, 2010, 08:10:44 PM
where did sin come from?

Sin came from disbelief. In the garden man and woman were in complete fellowship, completley revealed (naked) with God and had no shame. God made them in His likeness and image, but the serpent lied to them saying "that God' knows in the day you eat from it you will be like Him."

Eve stopped believing God, and believed the serpent. She believed that she wasn't like God and needed to become like God.

That is what sin is. Disbelieving what God has said about you and trying to become like Him.

What was the consequence, They hid from His presence in shame. Death!

Well, IMO, sin came from a weak heart and a strong carnal mindset.......for out of the heart comes forth all the nasty stuff. Adam and Eve had weak hearts which led to a carnal mindset. The lust of the flesh, lust of the eye and pride of life were in full operation before they ate of the tree. The carnal mind is enmity against God and so is the serpent. Coincidence? I don't think so.

Sin was a inevitable outcome of being created thus. It was a perfect design by God for the start of a perfect plan.

Disbelieving is the result of a weak heart.

For  out   of   the   heart  proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:  20  These are [ the  things] which defile a man: matt15.19

cp

QuoteWell, IMO, sin came from a weak heart and a strong carnal mindset

So you believe God created weak children? God's image and likeness is weakness?

The truth is, they only did what they did as a result from deception, the lie of the serpent.

Scripture is quite clear that Adam and Eve were completley revealeved (naked) before God without shame, and it wasn't till after the lie did that change.

Where is your biblical support for the idea that man was created with a weak heart?

I see, "God created man in His own image" "I was sent to heal the BROKEN hearts" not weak hearts

Quote from: Dallas on April 18, 2010, 08:40:07 PM

QuoteWell, IMO, sin came from a weak heart and a strong carnal mindset

So you believe God created weak children? God's image and likeness is weakness?

Hi Dallas,

when God said he created man in his own image could he have meant we look like God, that is we have two hands, arms, feet, head, and so forth? Adam and Eve had eyes but they probably didn't see as well as Gods. They had a mind but I doubt it ever worked as well as God's did, else they wouldn't have let a little creature such as a serpent, or whatever it was, deceive them. What is an image of something? Some say my daughter is the spitting image of me but she isn't like me at all. I figured this is why God said everything was GOOD, not perfect.

Quote from: Dallas
The truth is, they only did what they did as a result from deception, the lie of the serpent.

If they had a perfect mind like God has, I don't think they would have been deceived. That would sound like God made a mistake.

Quote from: Dallas
Scripture is quite clear that Adam and Eve were completley revealeved (naked) before God without shame, and it wasn't till after the lie did that change.

Here is where law comes into the picture. God said "thou shalt not" and after they did what they were told not to do, they became aware of their nakedness. Like Paul said, "I would not have known what sin was but by the law". They didn't know they were naked until they did what they were told not to do. Disobeying God opened their eyes to the fact that they were naked.

Quote from: Dallas
Where is your biblical support for the idea that man was created with a weak heart?

I see, "God created man in His own image" "I was sent to heal the BROKEN hearts" not weak hearts

It was God who said "the heart is deceitful and wicked above all things". It was God who gave us this heart.

CHB

Quote from: Dallas on April 18, 2010, 08:40:07 PM

So you believe God created weak children? God's image and likeness is weakness?

You should know better than to ask that Dallas but I see some explaining is in order. If God created weakness, He did it on purpose and perfectly. God does not sin.

Yes I see God created weak 'children'. Eve had the lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes and pride of life in operation BEFORE eating of the tree. Do I need to show Scripture to support this?  We know that these 3 things are not good.

For all that [is] in the world, the  lust  of the  flesh , and the  lust  of the  eyes , and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. 1john 2.16

The only way for this lust and pride to be is if God created creatures or children in which such could grow. Lust and greed are not of God but are of the world that came from God.

For of him, and through him, and to him, [are] all things: to whom [be] glory for ever. Amen. romans 11.36

Quote from: Dallas on April 18, 2010, 08:40:07 PM
The truth is, they only did what they did as a result from deception, the lie of the serpent.

Scripture is quite clear that Adam and Eve were completley revealeved (naked) before God without shame, and it wasn't till after the lie did that change.

Naked is not a good thing and man did not know sin until a law came and he disobeyed it. Naked suggests to me that Adam and Eve were not yet complete. To be complete they needed to be clothed with the righteousness of Christ.

  For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be  clothed  upon with our house which is from heaven:  3  If so be that being  clothed  we shall not be found naked.  4  For we that are in [this] tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but  clothed  upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.2cor5.2

Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and  naked :rev3.17

The deception did come via the serpent which I see as representative of our carnal mind.

Dallas, where did this 'serpent' come from? Who forms the serpent? job26.13

Quote from: Dallas on April 18, 2010, 08:40:07 PM
Where is your biblical support for the idea that man was created with a weak heart?

The  heart  [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?jere 17.9

Quote from: Dallas on April 18, 2010, 08:40:07 PM
I see, "God created man in His own image" "I was sent to heal the BROKEN hearts" not weak hearts

I see God as creating man in His own image. He starts out with Adam and ends with Jesus Christ.

cp

QuoteHi Dallas,

when God said he created man in his own image could he have meant we look like God, that is we have two hands, arms, feet, head, and so forth? Adam and Eve had eyes but they probably didn't see as well as Gods. They had a mind but I doubt it ever worked as well as God's did, else they wouldn't have let a little creature such as a serpent, or whatever it was, deceive them. What is an image of something? Some say my daughter is the spitting image of me but she isn't like me at all. I figured this is why God said everything was GOOD, not perfect.

The image of God is not a physical reflection, for God doesn't have a body. Throughout the bible God is refered to un in anthropormophisms (relating to us in terms and description we would relate and understand). Psalms say God has feathers, does God have feathers, and wings as other palms say, of course not.

As far as the image is concearned, image does not mean reflection but is concerning character of person. The bible puts alot of emphasis on man's transfoming of image into that no longer of God but into that of beast and crawling creatures. Now that obviously doesn't mean we have become feral or run on all fours chasing the gazzel, but instead charging man becoming focused on selfishness and non-spiritual cattle, meaning nothing.


God doesn't have the physical attributes as you portray them, for He isn't physical. As far as letting themselves be led astray, it was the serpent who was devious and acted with evil not Adam or Eve.

God said everything was good, so you suppose that God made things poorly? Somewhat of one who simply says, well that will suffice? What about Jesus's commments about God? Jesus said, "Why do you call me good, for there is only one who is good and He is in heaven." So if God is good according to Jesus, and God said that we were good, I would hold that judgement of His a little higher than you do.

You also said two different things, "Some say my daughter is the spitting image of me but she isn't like me at all."
Spitting image and like me... two completley different things. Image is refering to character and likeness is refering to value. Behaviour is not considered in either of these. Those are mannerisms and copying, not likeness or image. When God said He created man in His image and likeness He declared man was Good in Character and Perfected in Value, Image (displaying the characteristics of God) and Likeness (being righteous as He is Righteous)

QuoteIf they had a perfect mind like God has, I don't think they would have been deceived. That would sound like God made a mistake.

Again here you are applying a behaviour concept to a non-behaviour judgement. To have the mind of God doesn't mean you won't make mistakes, it means that you, like God, focus on goodness and righteousness and grace and love.

Not crossword puzzles and physics.

QuoteHere is where law comes into the picture. God said "thou shalt not" and after they did what they were told not to do, they became aware of their nakedness. Like Paul said, "I would not have known what sin was but by the law". They didn't know they were naked until they did what they were told not to do. Disobeying God opened their eyes to the fact that they were naked.

I have taught on this quite a few times. This is not a law, it is a Father teaching His children about self-preservation. Just as I say to my daughter, don't touch the stove or you will get burned. Now notice I didn't say don't touch the stove or I will burn you, God didn't say don't eat from the tree or I will kill you. God was telling them what they needed to do to be safe. This was not law, it was relationship.

I taught electronics to many friends, and I say everytime, turn off your amplifier before changing any cord. I'm not initiating any law, just teaching them amplifier preservation. Some listened and enjoyed there music, some didn't and fried thier amplifiers.

When Paul was talking about the law opening his eyes to sin He was talking about a time when God had made the covenant agreement with Moses and those Hebrews. It was because of sin (Eve not believing what God had said, He made her in His likeness) that death entered the world. Law deosn't create sin, it identifies sin.

Romans 5:12 "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-- 13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned"

and as you said,

Romans 7:7 "What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET."

It wasn't them becomning aware of their nakedness that was the issue, it was that being exposed to God, and knowing good and evil and knowing that their behaviour wasn't good was a judgement they were ashamned of so they covered themselves up and hid from His presence.

And just as Paul taught, they were alive once, fully exposed (naked) before God in all thier bad behaviour but had no shame, but then the knowledge of good and evil came and they became ashamed causing seperation from God...death.

QuoteNaked is not a good thing

-claypot

naked is niether good or bad...that's our ingrained north american cultural interpretation. Naked means being exposed, all your private thoughts and desires, you inner most being showing.

God created them naked, they weren't clothed and had fellowship with God. If it were a "bad" thing God would have clothed them from the beginning. It wasn't till after the tree that they became ashamed, so God made them coverings so that they could hide their most inner self from Him.

The tree didn't teach them naked was a bad thing, instead they became judgemental with knowledge and judged themselves as bad and became ashamed of themselves and seeing that God was good they needed to hide from Him...for they had fear that their bad would be exposed.

Hi claypot,

You said it much better than I did or could. I liked what you said here.

Quote from: claypotNaked is not a good thing and man did not know sin until a law came and he disobeyed it. Naked suggests to me that Adam and Eve were not yet complete. To be complete they needed to be clothed with the righteousness of Christ.

I believe I read somewhere that "God didn't create man in his image but that he was CREATING man in his image". This sounds right to me because as long as we are human we are not perfect YET.

I see a lot of what Dallas is saying but I guess like he said "the flesh has my eyes blinded, or keeps me from seeing some things". I just can't wrap my mind around the fact that we are not complete and we are flesh and blood still. I don't think we are perfect YET. Now spiritually speaking I believe we are perfect and sin free because Paul said if we have died with Christ we were resurrected with him and have sit down with him, or in him. This might sound like double talk but I feel as long as I am in this decaying state, literally I am not perfect. Only the Spirit of Christ that operates in me is perfect. I pray if I am wrong that God will show me otherwise. I intend to keep an open mind and think and study on these things. I appreciate all the help and insight that everyone has given me. I have learned a lot on this forum from you all and I just want to thank you all for that. God has revealed things to me and caused me to change my mind on things now and then.

CHB

Dallas, I respect you but if that is all you have to say concerning all I wrote to you then I think we are done. I wrote a fairly long response to your thoughts and you replied to a 6 word phrase. This speaks to me.

God is working in you to do and to will of His good pleasure and I can live with that.

cp

QuoteDallas, I respect you but if that is all you have to say concerning all I wrote to you then I think we are done. I wrote a fairly long response to your thoughts and you replied to a 6 word phrase. This speaks to me.

God is working in you to do and to will of His good pleasure and I can live with that.

In case you hadn't noticed, I had just spent quite the time responding to CHB, and I quickly responded to something that jumped out at me from your, so not to ignore you I responded to that first.

If you feel I need to qualify you, to give you value based on my time, sorry but I do have other things other than sitting here typing.

If you didn't noticed I was also responding to another one of your posts.

The  heart  [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?jere 17.9

This is a prophet speaking to the people of israel, who were under the law trying to live up to a standard. They were weighed down by sin and thusly thier hearts had become broken and instead of being filled with rightouesness they were fill with all wickedness and malice.

Hey CHB,

QuoteI see a lot of what Dallas is saying but I guess like he said "the flesh has my eyes blinded, or keeps me from seeing some things". I just can't wrap my mind around the fact that we are not complete and we are flesh and blood still. I don't think we are perfect YET. Now spiritually speaking I believe we are perfect and sin free because Paul said if we have died with Christ we were resurrected with him and have sit down with him, or in him. This might sound like double talk but I feel as long as I am in this decaying state, literally I am not perfect. Only the Spirit of Christ that operates in me is perfect. I pray if I am wrong that God will show me otherwise. I intend to keep an open mind and think and study on these things. I appreciate all the help and insight that everyone has given me. I have learned a lot on this forum from you all and I just want to thank you all for that. God has revealed things to me and caused me to change my mind on things now and then.

I think this issue exsists because you are loking for something that isn't there, but was implanted by religous idealism. Religon has invented many ideas that simply isn't true but has become staples in life, the rapture bus hope, walking in heaven a place with millions of mansions and streets paved with gold, an angelic army flying through the sky swooping to earth to battle the devil and myriads of demons. They simply aren't true.


The idea that we don't make mistakes, or our minds will not ever misunderstand, are all dreams of what we want but just not a biblical concearn. The bible, God, is concearned with creating fellowship. A life we can be free to enjoy with Him and us shame free without judgement, ridicule or fighting. That man will not suffer from emotional death. We live for ever as He sustains us, we will die physically, but we will continue on just as we are now with a body that won't incure sin. But as you said we are spiritually 100% there. As Jesus is so are we in this world already. We are rightoues as He is, we are as Good as He is and we are as complete as He is.

Being perfect oin knowledge is just a matter of time. Eventually we will assimilate all knowledge...then what? Knowing everything to we simply stop exsisting? No we don't, we will still wake up to the next day...because it's not about knowledge or wisdom although profitable it's about living and experiencing and sahring that in love with all people, and God. That is and has been perfected, and you have been perfected to be part of it.

Jesus was flesh, and without sin.  Therefore, flesh in of it's self can not be sin. Like some of you said.... think out of the Heart...  Matt 15:18-19 


Paul

Quote from: IceMan84 on April 05, 2010, 05:38:30 AM
Do you believe that all sinners (i.e. everyone) will have to pass through the Lake of Fire, or only those who have not accepted Christ on this side of the grave? I have heard proponents of UR say conflicting things on this, so I just wanted to hear your all's thoughts on it.

Hi Iceman,

I think we are passing through the Lake of Fire as we pass through this world.   
That's the way I see it.  Can't prove it.  The scriptures say that our God is a consuming fire and God is drawing all things into Christ.  I see our experience of walking through mortality as a spiritually fiery experience. 

Anne

Quote from: Raggedy Anne on April 19, 2010, 06:32:01 AM

Quote from: IceMan84 on April 05, 2010, 05:38:30 AM
Do you believe that all sinners (i.e. everyone) will have to pass through the Lake of Fire, or only those who have not accepted Christ on this side of the grave? I have heard proponents of UR say conflicting things on this, so I just wanted to hear your all's thoughts on it.

Hi Iceman,

I think we are passing through the Lake of Fire as we pass through this world.   
That's the way I see it.  Can't prove it.  The scriptures say that our God is a consuming fire and God is drawing all things into Christ.  I see our experience of walking through mortality as a spiritually fiery experience. 

Anne

This is my understanding also.

Welcome back Anne :thumbsup:

Quote from: Raggedy Anne on April 19, 2010, 06:32:01 AM
I think we are passing through the Lake of Fire as we pass through this world.  
That's the way I see it.  Can't prove it.  The scriptures say that our God is a consuming fire and God is drawing all things into Christ.  I see our experience of walking through mortality as a spiritually fiery experience.

If LoF is the second death then what is the first death? And the third?
In Revelation dead people are resurrected from their first death. Some/many of them are cast in LoF also called second death. If I follow LoF is now the scenario seems to be:
1- 1st Birth => previous life
2- 1st death => previous life
3- Ressurection (2nd birth) and Judgement
4- Cast into LoF (2nd death) => this life
5- 3rd death -> our exit of this world.

No matter how I look at it; second means there was something before it. Speaking physical or spirtual doesn't change that.
Sounds a bit like reincarnation. I'm not promoting that but it seems to be a conclusion that can/must be drawn from the LoF=now view.
Strickly speaking resurrection is a type reincarnation.

Here is one teaching that has worked for me...There is a first death, because we were required to be born again.  One life ended, the life of being in Adam.  The second life has begun, life in Christ (the 2nd Adam).  This is also to be said of the world/aion/age.  One ended and the 2nd one began.

Most of that line of thought can be found in the four gospels and a few supporting letters by Paul.  If you are going to try to figure out life and death from literal translations from Revelation...well I think you are in for a wild ride.  It just doesn't compute that way.

That's not the answer either. If LoF is now for the people that went from life in the 1st Adam to life in the 2nd Adam it means most people on this planet are not in LoF because they are not Christians. (including all OT people)
Therefore they will not have their LoF in this life.

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 19, 2010, 10:32:59 AM
Welcome back Anne :thumbsup:

Quote from: Raggedy Anne on April 19, 2010, 06:32:01 AM
I think we are passing through the Lake of Fire as we pass through this world.  
That's the way I see it.  Can't prove it.  The scriptures say that our God is a consuming fire and God is drawing all things into Christ.  I see our experience of walking through mortality as a spiritually fiery experience.

If LoF is the second death then what is the first death? And the third?
In Revelation dead people are resurrected from their first death. Some/many of them are cast in LoF also called second death. If I follow LoF is now the scenario seems to be:
1- 1st Birth => previous life
2- 1st death => previous life
3- Ressurection (2nd birth) and Judgement
4- Cast into LoF (2nd death) => this life
5- 3rd death -> our exit of this world.

No matter how I look at it; second means there was something before it. Speaking physical or spirtual doesn't change that.
Sounds a bit like reincarnation. I'm not promoting that but it seems to be a conclusion that can/must be drawn from the LoF=now view.
Strickly speaking resurrection is a type reincarnation.

Hi White Wings  - thanks for the welcome back.

I think of the first death as being born into this world.  We are born into (subjected) to death in Adam.  I think that applies to everyone who has ever taken on mortality.   So, then perhaps I'm wrong about the lake of fire -- 2nd death.   I don't claim to have all the answers.  I think of the Lake of Fire as being completely immersed in the fire that is God - a complete purification where we no longer have a body of flesh to "hide" ourselves in.   Better to have been hidden in Christ before we don't have these mortal bodies any longer, don't you think?  Work out our salvation with fear and trembling and not be "found naked".   It's very mysterious - for sure.

:gangel:
Anne

Quote from: Raggedy Anne on April 19, 2010, 02:19:56 PMI think of the first death as being born into this world.

Meaning pre-existance.

QuoteWe are born into (subjected) to death in Adam.  I think that applies to everyone who has ever taken on mortality.   So, then perhaps I'm wrong about the lake of fire -- 2nd death.   I don't claim to have all the answers.

Me neither, but it doesn't take a lot of research that not all people die as saints. So if this is the purifying lake many are still very dirty when they exit it. So unless LoF continues after death this life is not LoF of very unsuccesful.

QuoteI think of the Lake of Fire as being completely immersed in the fire that is God - a complete purification where we no longer have a body of flesh to "hide" ourselves in.

I think it's something like that.

QuoteBetter to have been hidden in Christ before we don't have these mortal bodies any longer, don't you think?

Chicken and egg story. You can only be in Christ when you are already (fairly) purified. But if you are not you have no clue you are dirty.

QuoteWork out our salvation with fear and trembling and not be "found naked".   It's very mysterious - for sure.

Mysterious, certainly so. Fear and trembling, never really had that feeling. If anything at all "curious"would be the word for me.

BEFORE the rains came upon the "wicked" in the Noah story; people were living on earth.  If the "rains" are similtude for "lake of fire", then there was a time "they lived" on earth without being "rained upon", ie: "the lake of fire".

BEFORE the "rains came upon Noah", he had a time of "trial", "working out his salvation", knowing he needed to stay faithful to the "end".  THEN the rains came, but at that time; he was protected in the ark.

Psa 11:5  The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Psa 11:6  Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and a horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.

Rom 2:5  But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;


so it seems to me, there is a time; when one is alive on earth, but not in the lake of fire; as it is a "future event".  and when the time comes, ie: the wrath stored up for the DAY of WRATH, then there are those "not hurt", and those "hurt"

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 19, 2010, 02:34:14 PM

Quote from: Raggedy Anne on April 19, 2010, 02:19:56 PMI think of the first death as being born into this world.

Meaning pre-existance.

That's so interesting.  As those trapped on top of Everest for the night can attest--dead flesh feels nothing.  So are we born into death?  And it takes a while for the flesh to kill us?  Children do feel very intensely--they are alive.  So is childhood like being trapped on top of Everest?  And we slowly sink into numbness, sleep, and death?  Two births then--one into death and one into life?  Moses came down from the mountain with a heart of stone, capable of breaking into a thousand pieces.  But what is alive doesn't break forever; it heals.


Ezekiel 36:26
I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

Quote from: Pierac on April 19, 2010, 05:42:05 AM
Jesus was flesh, and without sin.  Therefore, flesh in of it's self can not be sin. Like some of you said.... think out of the Heart...  Matt 15:18-19 


Paul

Hi Paul,

Jesus carried the worlds sin on his flesh. He destroyed sin in the flesh. If flesh isn't sin Jesus wouldn't have had to become flesh in order to destroy it, would he? He took upon himself our sinful likeness in order to destroy it.

(Rom. 8:3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the LIKENESS OF SINFUL FLESH and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh.

CHB

What exactly does it mean to destroy sin in the flesh? I ask respectfully and seriously.

cp

Quote from: claypot on April 19, 2010, 07:20:00 PM
What exactly does it mean to destroy sin in the flesh? I ask respectfully and seriously.

cp

Romans 7:24
What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?



21Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

--Col 1

OK Molly. Hmmmmmm. Maybe could you use laymans terms or maybe I could ask you a question and that would help as Scripture may mean one thing to one and a totally different thing to another.

Are you thinking that 'destroy sin in the flesh' means to makes us sinless in our physical life situation right now?

I really am not getting this yet. Be gentle and patient with me here.

cp

QuoteAre you thinking that 'destroy sin in the flesh' means to makes us sinless in our physical life situation right now?

We could look at Abraham, who was pretty much your normal every day guy in terms of sin, but--

Genesis 15:6
.. he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

He believed!  And this belief was counted for righteousness in the sight of God.

God says to Abraham--

Genesis 17:1
And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

"perfect"

H8549
תּמים
tâmıym
taw-meem'
From H8552; entire (literally, figuratively or morally); also (as noun) integrity, truth: - without blemish, complete, full, perfect, sincerely (-ity), sound, without spot, undefiled, upright (-ly), whole.


Could any man walk before God and not be perfect?  It is our union, our reconciliation, with God which makes us perfect, complete, sound, undefiled, whole.

When we are not those things, we are hiding from God, aren't we--like Adam and Eve in the garden--we are naked and know it, so we hide from Satan's accusations.

Who told thee that thou wast naked?
--Gen 3


But, through Christ, we are now reconciled to God, and those moments of the day when we are standing before him, we are most certainly perfect, complete, clothed in the righteousness of Christ.  This reconciliation allows us to stand thusly before God every minute of the day if we so choose, in which case, we would be --yes--I  believe wholly without sin.  Because who could sin, in the sense of separation from God,  in his presence?  We are complete in his presence.

Micah 6:8
He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?


"walk"

H1980
הלך
hâlak
haw-lak'
Akin to H3212; a primitive root; to walk (in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively): - (all) along, apace, behave (self), come, (on) continually, be conversant, depart, + be eased, enter, exercise (self), + follow, forth, forward, get, go (about, abroad, along, away, forward, on, out, up and down), + greater, grow, be wont to haunt, lead, march, X more and more, move (self), needs, on, pass (away), be at the point, quite, run (along), + send, speedily, spread, still, surely, + tale-bearer, + travel (-ler), walk (abroad, on, to and fro, up and down, to places), wander, wax, [way-] faring man, X be weak, whirl.

willieH: Hi sister Anne!  :cloud9:

Quote from: Raggedy Anne on April 19, 2010, 06:32:01 AM

Quote from: IceMan84 on April 05, 2010, 05:38:30 AM
Do you believe that all sinners (i.e. everyone) will have to pass through the Lake of Fire, or only those who have not accepted Christ on this side of the grave? I have heard proponents of UR say conflicting things on this, so I just wanted to hear your all's thoughts on it.

Hi Iceman,

I think we are passing through the Lake of Fire as we pass through this world.  
That's the way I see it.  Can't prove it.  The scriptures say that our God is a consuming fire and God is drawing all things into Christ.  I see our experience of walking through mortality as a spiritually fiery experience.  

Anne

Me 2!  :happygrin:  Here's how I see it...

J. Preston Eby has observed this (forgive my paraphrase of his words):

A statement can reverse the objects WITHIN IT, without compromising the TRUTH it conveys, such as:

• (1)  ...An ISLAND is a MASS of LAND surrounded by WATER.
• (2)  ...A MASS of LAND surrounded by WATER is an ISLAND.
• (3)  ...An ISLAND surrounded by WATER is a MASS of LAND.

No matter WHEN the articles or objects are presented within the statement, the TRUTH will still be conveyed concerning them...

This same thing can be observed of Revelation 20:14:

• (1) ...DEATH and HELL [grave] were cast into the LAKE OF FIRE.  This is the SECOND DEATH...


• (2) ...This is the SECOND DEATH... DEATH and HELL [grave] were cast into the LAKE of FIRE.


• (3) ...the LAKE of FIRE, the SECOND DEATH is DEATH and HELL [grave] which were cast into it

The REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST... is in fact... the REVELATION of the WORD of GOD...

The WORD of God ...IS... a TIMELESS entity which created ALL THINGS (including TIME and its "forward-only motion") -- John 1:3 -- Heb 13:8 - Col 1:16

Though some might disagree with this, ...One of the facets/aspects of the word "Creation" [#G2936/2937/2938] is "FOUNDING" or "ORDAINANCE"...  

GOD is an UNCHANGING entity... and so anything and everything which emerges from Him (being FOUNDED by HIM / ORDAINED by HIM), has a tie to HIS UNCHANGING characteristic...

In other words... ALL that is manifest as EVIL has ALWAYS been EVIL (according to His knowledge/ordination/founding), ...IS EVIL, ...and shall ALWAYS BE EVIL...  ALL that is manifest as GOOD has ALWAYS been GOOD (according to His knowledge/ordination/founding), ...IS GOOD, ...and shall ALWAYS BE, GOOD...  all of which are ORDAINED / FOUNDED, by Him ...to BE what they ARE... UNCHANGING.

The REVEALING of HIS WORD, therefore is not TIED to TIME... and so the final book of the Bible, where TIME positioning is NOTED... is a NOW thing, not future or past... to include the notation of the LOF... and all which find a place within it.

Which is why -- NOW is the "ACCEPTED TIME" --  NOW is the DAY of Salvation -- 2 Cor 6:2 -- NOW is the JUDGMENT of this WORLD -- NOW is the prince of this world [satan/adversity] CAST OUT -- John 12:31 ...etc.

Peace... :Peace:

Quote from: willieH
•(1) ...DEATH and HELL [grave] were cast into the LAKE OF FIRE.  This is the SECOND DEATH...
•(2) ...This is the SECOND DEATH... DEATH and HELL [grave] were cast into the LAKE of FIRE.
•(3) ...the LAKE of FIRE, the SECOND DEATH is DEATH and HELL [grave] which were cast into it

Hi willie!!

In other words you are saying that when death and the grave are cast into the LOF it is the death of death? Correct me if I am wrong here.

Is this death a spiritual death and a literal death, or just a literal death? One can be spiritually dead and physically dead, is this the death of ALL kinds of death or just the physical death?

CHB

Quote from: CHB on April 19, 2010, 07:11:11 PM

Quote from: Pierac on April 19, 2010, 05:42:05 AM
Jesus was flesh, and without sin.  Therefore, flesh in of it's self can not be sin. Like some of you said.... think out of the Heart...  Matt 15:18-19 


Paul

Hi Paul,

Jesus carried the worlds sin on his flesh. He destroyed sin in the flesh. If flesh isn't sin Jesus wouldn't have had to become flesh in order to destroy it, would he? He took upon himself our sinful likeness in order to destroy it.

(Rom. 8:3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the LIKENESS OF SINFUL FLESH and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh.

CHB

Yes, Jesus carried the world's sin on his sinless flesh! But only at the cross!

2Co 5:21  He (God)  made Him (Jesus) who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

That was the plan!

Isa 53:10  Yet it pleased the LORD (GOD) to bruise him; he hath put him (Jesus) to grief: when thou shalt make his (Jesus') soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Your getting warmer... CHB   :wink1:

Paul

My  :2c: but:

I don't think God fertilized one of Mary's eggs.
He is the second Adam; a new Creation.
His flesh was, is and will remain sinless.

Quote from: Pierac on April 20, 2010, 03:15:49 AMYes, Jesus carried the world's sin on his sinless flesh! But only at the cross!

From moment He was handed over, until His resurrection. IMO
He was "in the earth" for three days and nights. I came to believe that means submerged into sin/death/evil. Not just being buried.

Whew .. .what a whirlwind of conversation!  Second death . . .death and the grave being thrown into the lake of fire.  What is death?  To me, it's not absence of life, it is simply "separation".  In a sense, being "holy" is expereincing a form of death.  It's a separation from the world of death even though we live "in" death.

When did the first death occur?  For me, it was in the garden.  Man was separated from God.  Did this mean that God could no longer converse with man?  Or man with God?  Of course not.  It meant man no longer "lived" in the spirit realm "with" God.  He was separated from the presence of God, from the abode of God, but not from God himself.  When I'm on the highest mountain, he is there . . .when I'm in the lowest valley he is there.  Nothing can separate us from God's love.  Death can not affect or sever the reach of God's love to and for us.

This realm is a death realm.  The first thing man does when they are born here is begin the dying process.  Remember when Jesus was calling disciples to follow after him and one said he needed to first go bury his father?  His response was let the dead bury the dead.  Let the spiritual dead bury the physical dead.  There were two deaths he was dealing with there.

What the lake of fire does for me is it consumes the realm of separation.  It brings death to death.  It's the finality of the overall plan of God which is to have the entire body of Christ live "in" him and He in us.  In order to do that, he will have to remove the realm that separates us from him . . .which is this natural realm . . .and all things will return to their original order. 

The knowledge of the Lord will cover the earth as the waters cover the sea.  You ever think about that?  How can the waters cover the sea when the sea consists of the water covering it?  It's an "all in all" principle being made manifest.  In other words, this realm we only see in part is going to be realigned to it's original state to where spirit returns to dominance and natural returns to invisible.   In the spirit realm is the atmosphere of the presence of God.  In this earth, we see his signs, but in the spirit the very atmosphere "is" his presence.  That's how the knowledge can cover the earth as water covers the sea . . .this realm will reverse it's order with the spirit realm and what is predominantly natural now will be predominantly spiritual "then".

The second death is the end of separation between man and God.

Colossians 2:10 "and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; 11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ"

The flesh has been removed and you ARE complete, not going to be, but are.

That truely resonates with me Nathan. You got good words there!

I too see us as dead...........let the dead bury the dead, Jesus said. This is the first death. Then to get to the right spiritual relationship with God we need to die to this death we are in..............a second death. After this second death there is only life forevermore!

cp

Quote from: Dallas on April 20, 2010, 05:46:41 PM
Colossians 2:10 "and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; 11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ"

The flesh has been removed and you ARE complete, not going to be, but are.

I think when people speak of 'going to be' they are thinking of the life/death we physically experience right now. I for one do not want to live like I'm living forever even though I know I am perfect in Christ in Gods eyes. Being perfect and being human and dealing with human carnal things is not my idea of being perfect without the extra baggage.

cp

The completion you're speaking of and the Scripture you're using to support it especially, is indicating it's a spiritual perfection rather than a physical one.  The circumcision made without hands . . .it's a spiritual experience.  

This physical body is still decaying. It's still manifesting imperfections.  But I think that's the whole point.  God pays no attention to our natural issues.  It's not this body that he perfected.  It's the spirit within it.  My spirit is made complete in him.  My mind is to be renewed daily . . .and my body will experience the same transformation from temperal to eternal when this realm finishes the course God set it on.  

1 John 3 . . .this will mess you up!!
9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

I love preaching that just to see the responses on people's faces if for no other reason.  But the point I believe being made here is  . .when we become born again, our perspective on sin changes.  God doesn't see my faults, he sees his Son, the light of his own heart beating in mine.  We measure righteousness by natural activity.  But we measure with reasoning and natural logic.  We measure what's on the outside of people.

Only God measures the heart and his ruler is not one that is of controlling judgment, but Jesus is his plumb line by which he measures our worthiness.  I do fleshly things on this earth because I still live in this temporary body of flesh which is very much influnced by fleshly things.  But my spirit is a whole other matter.  

My spirit is what is immediately affected by the blood of the Lamb which is no longer indentifying with the sweat (labor) of my face (identity) which is what became the predominant factor of Adam.  There was a transformation as to how Adam would recieve his food.  No longer would it come from the fruit of the spirit/trees in the garden, but now it would only come through the laboring mind.  That was part of the curse to living in this realm  Everything would be required to be filtered through the mind.  

That's what the crown of thorns represtent.  The curse of the mind.  But my spirit was not created as the weaker of the two.  "I" was given the ability to appoint authority either to my mind or my spirit.  But only my spirit had the authority over my mind.  If I chose to walk in the spirit, then I walked in a higher authority over my filtering mind.  But if I chose to walk according to my mind, I couldn't walk in authority because that's only in the spirit.  So when I chose to live in my mind, I became a slave to my own thinking.

"That's" what Jesus reversed.  Sin didn't begin with disobedience.  Disobedience was the evidence that the misalignment had already transpired.  Sin began the moment Adam turned from life and turned "to" knowledge.  But walking in the spirit is reversing the curse of that alignment in every one of us so that our natural actions are not what bring us our redemption.  Our redemption is to our spiritual alignment within.  Which affects our actions without, but not as immediate as it has to our spirit within.

QuoteThen to get to the right spiritual relationship with God we need to

Hey claypot, this is works! This is text book definition of sin and works. You are seperated from God and need to do something to get right with Him, this statement is why we need Jesus.

Because of Jesus I have the right relationship with God! "For now we come before His throne with great confidence"

Jesus did way more for you than you are giving Him credit for. Trust Him, He has established you.

Quote

QuoteColossians 2:10 "and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; 11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ"

The flesh has been removed and you ARE complete, not going to be, but are.

I think when people speak of 'going to be' they are thinking of the life/death we physically experience right now. I for one do not want to live like I'm living forever even though I know I am perfect in Christ in Gods eyes. Being perfect and being human and dealing with human carnal things is not my idea of being perfect without the extra baggage.

So the scripture says you are complete, God has judged you complete you acknowledge that here, but you eleviate it's power and overrule God. You say that you are complete in God's eyes, but you obviously know better. If God says you are complete you are, but you overrule that and say you aren't.

So who's judgement are you living by, God's that says you are complete or claypot's that says you aren't there quite yet.

Quote from: Dallas on April 20, 2010, 05:46:41 PM
Colossians 2:10 "and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; 11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ"

The flesh has been removed and you ARE complete, not going to be, but are.

:thumbsup:

1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

--Rom 8

Hey Nathan;

If you believe then that your spirit is complete and perfect then what benifit is there for you since you are still a slave to the carnal flesh? That carnal flesh hasmore power over you than even the sacrifice of the cross, or so it seems you preach.

12...and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

--Rev 20




6Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.

7Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,

8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.

--Psa 40

Quote from: Pierac on April 20, 2010, 03:15:49 AM

Quote from: CHB on April 19, 2010, 07:11:11 PM

Quote from: Pierac on April 19, 2010, 05:42:05 AM
Jesus was flesh, and without sin.  Therefore, flesh in of it's self can not be sin. Like some of you said.... think out of the Heart...  Matt 15:18-19 


Paul

Hi Paul,

Jesus carried the worlds sin on his flesh. He destroyed sin in the flesh. If flesh isn't sin Jesus wouldn't have had to become flesh in order to destroy it, would he? He took upon himself our sinful likeness in order to destroy it.

(Rom. 8:3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the LIKENESS OF SINFUL FLESH and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh.

CHB

Yes, Jesus carried the world's sin on his sinless flesh! But only at the cross!

2Co 5:21  He (God)  made Him (Jesus) who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

That was the plan!

Isa 53:10  Yet it pleased the LORD (GOD) to bruise him; he hath put him (Jesus) to grief: when thou shalt make his (Jesus') soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Your getting warmer... CHB   :wink1:

Paul

Hi Paul,

What if the flesh that Jesus was in was sin? Not saying that Jesus sinned because I know he didn't. He was perfect and without sin but couldn't the flesh he was living in be sin if as it says "he was made in the LIKENESS OF SINFUL FLESH"?  Jesus was Spirit before he became human, he just lived in a house of flesh while he was here. The flesh he lived in was like a temporary dwelling place. It seems it would have to be sin in order for him to destroy sin by this flesh?

(1Peter 2:22-24) Who DID NO SIN, neither was guile found in his mouth.

(Heb. 9:28) Who his own self BARE OUR SINS IN HIS OWN BODY ON THE TREE. It says "he shall appear a second time WITHOUT SIN unto salvation." There had to be sin on him for him to destroy it by his death wouldn't you think?

I believe as White Wings said, he had this flesh of sin until he was resurrected.

This is probably getting off topic so I will refrain from further posting on this. Don't know how this subject came up anyway?

CHB

Quote from: Dallas on April 20, 2010, 06:12:12 PM

Quote

QuoteColossians 2:10 "and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; 11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ"

The flesh has been removed and you ARE complete, not going to be, but are.

I think when people speak of 'going to be' they are thinking of the life/death we physically experience right now. I for one do not want to live like I'm living forever even though I know I am perfect in Christ in Gods eyes. Being perfect and being human and dealing with human carnal things is not my idea of being perfect without the extra baggage.

So the scripture says you are complete, God has judged you complete you acknowledge that here, but you eleviate it's power and overrule God. You say that you are complete in God's eyes, but you obviously know better. If God says you are complete you are, but you overrule that and say you aren't.

So who's judgement are you living by, God's that says you are complete or claypot's that says you aren't there quite yet.

Hey Dallas,

I'm sorry to have confused you with my words. I in no way elevate my beliefs over Gods. Doesn't it even sound ridiculous to say something like that. You know, like me saying, I know more than God. Do you really think I think that? But I understand what you are saying Brother.

Dallas, may I ask, if you could, would you want to live just like you are now forever? Being perfectly and totally justified and perfect in Christ yet living exactly as you are now?

cp

Quote from: Dallas on April 20, 2010, 06:09:00 PM

QuoteThen to get to the right spiritual relationship with God we need to

Hey claypot, this is works! This is text book definition of sin and works. You are seperated from God and need to do something to get right with Him, this statement is why we need Jesus.

Because of Jesus I have the right relationship with God! "For now we come before His throne with great confidence"

Jesus did way more for you than you are giving Him credit for. Trust Him, He has established you.

We need to.......................

But Dallas you forget that I firmly believe that it is God who works in us to will and TO DO of His good pleasure. When I say 'we need to' I speak as Paul in that it is not we but Christ in us. It is us doing yet not us but God who is working in us to do.

Do you understand this?

Please don't assume things like what I give credit to Jesus for. You have no idea what I give Jesus credit for. I respect what you write. I may not agree with certain things so I seek to understand via discussion but I never want to assume I know fully what you are thinking, I respect you too much for that.

I do trust Jesus and I believe you do too. I have more faith in you it seems than you do in me but that will change as God reveals more of me to you. I believe God has established me so don't concern yourself about that although I thank you for the advice anyway.

cp

Claypot, by your words you said staright forward, "You need to get right with God"

I'm telling you that because of what Jesus did you are right with God in everyway.

I assume nothing, I am reading what you said, and responding directly to your words, no assuming.

What you said,"

QuoteThen to get to the right spiritual relationship with God we need to

No different that, in order to be right with God you need to say the sinnners prayer, tithe, go to church...etc. I am simply identifying what you said, no assuming what you said.

Quote from: Dallas on April 20, 2010, 06:18:36 PM
Hey Nathan;

If you believe then that your spirit is complete and perfect then what benifit is there for you since you are still a slave to the carnal flesh? That carnal flesh hasmore power over you than even the sacrifice of the cross, or so it seems you preach.

It almost feels like you're ignoring the bulk of what is being said in order to continue pushing your point.  For one, I never said that I am still a slave to the flesh, I said when I "chose" to live by my reasoning, that choice results in becoming enslaved to the flesh.  Because my mind is very much influence and can be decieved by the things of the flesh.  That's why I believe we are called to walk in the spirit.  "That" is where our authority and perfection is.

Why would Scripture tell us that our minds need to be renewed daily by the word if we are completely perfect in every way?  

Does not Scripture also say that if anyone is sick, let them come to the elders where they can lay hands on them and through the prayer of faith be healed?  If my entire being is perfect, then why do I need to admit I'm sick?  

Why would we be instructed to take captive our thoughts, if our thoughts are all perfect?

This perfection is spiritual.  The body and soul still need to go through the trials and tribulation for the perfection to manifest completely through us.  I don't discredit the power of the perfecting plan in our lives.  I don't see myself, when it comes to rightstanding with God as imperfect.  I believe God sees me as perfected, in spite of my imperfections.

Let me put it this way . . .current state observations reveal imperfect status.  "Finished state" observation reveals perfect redemption.  Walking in the flesh is walking in current status.  Walking in the spirit is walking in the finished works.  I become what I behold.

Quote from: Dallas on April 20, 2010, 07:41:21 PM
Claypot, by your words you said staright forward, "You need to get right with God"

I'm telling you that because of what Jesus did you are right with God in everyway.

I assume nothing, I am reading what you said, and responding directly to your words, no assuming.

What you said,"

QuoteThen to get to the right spiritual relationship with God we need to

No different that, in order to be right with God you need to say the sinnners prayer, tithe, go to church...etc. I am simply identifying what you said, no assuming what you said.

I am so sorry for misleading you. I now hope you understand that I definitely do not believe we need to say a sinners prayer or tithe or go to church to be right with God. Do you? I do not go to church in the orthodox way and I don't tithe as the old testament speaks of and I sure do want to be right with God and believe I am.

Please try to give me a little credit when you respond directly to my words and try to realize that, like the Bible, words may have deeper and different meanings than we read on the surface.

cp

Quote from: Nathan on April 20, 2010, 07:59:41 PM
That's why I believe we are called to walk in the spirit.  "That" is where our authority and perfection is.

Why would Scripture tell us that our minds need to be renewed daily by the word if we are completely perfect in every way?  

Does not Scripture also say that if anyone is sick, let them come to the elders where they can lay hands on them and through the prayer of faith be healed?  If my entire being is perfect, then why do I need to admit I'm sick?  

Why would we be instructed to take captive our thoughts, if our thoughts are all perfect?

Amen.   If you are perfect now, you are saying what you are saying in your perfection.  If one is just as perfect as the other, then how can there be any contradiction?  

Dallas, you may not have had time yet or you may have overlooked this question I asked of you and I am truely curious what your answer is. Here it is.......

Dallas, may I ask, if you could, would you want to live just like you are now forever? Being perfectly and totally justified and perfect in Christ yet living exactly as you are now?

cp

This idea of being 'perfect' has, I think, a different definition in the Bible than what we might normally consider.

To be made perfect in the Bible is to be made complete, and to be made complete is to be in union with Christ.

Therefore, whenever I am walking in the Spirit, in union with Christ, I am perfect and complete.  That is not to say that I won't keep learning and growing and becoming more as he is, but that is not the point.  The point is the moment in time that is perfection because of the relationship.


Genesis 6:9
.... Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

Molly, what are you when those moments of perfection are not being realized, when you are not walking in the spirit or in union with Christ?

cp

Quote from: claypot on April 21, 2010, 12:50:58 AM
Molly, what are you when those moments of perfection are not being realized, when you are not walking in the spirit or in union with Christ?

cp

cutoff, lost, dark, confused, fearful, stupid, unloving, obstructed vision, hopeless--

I think the idea is to make those moments less and less and the moments with Christ more and more, which is why Paul is always telling us to renew our minds, to pray ceaselessly, to put on the armor of God and stand.


Philippians 1:21
For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

Quote from: Molly on April 21, 2010, 01:01:14 AM

Quote from: claypot on April 21, 2010, 12:50:58 AM
Molly, what are you when those moments of perfection are not being realized, when you are not walking in the spirit or in union with Christ?

cp

cutoff, lost, dark, confused, fearful, stupid, unloving, obstructed vision, hopeless--

I think the idea is to make those moments less and less and the moments with Christ more and more, which is why Paul is always telling us to renew our minds, to pray ceaselessly, to put on the armor of God and stand.


Philippians 1:21
For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

I agree Molly but I asked because my point is that we are not in a perfect state IMO if we keep going from perfection to imperfection and back again. We will only be in a perfect state when we can remain Christ like in every facet of our being and make-up.

Tis the reason for my question to Dallas a few posts back.

cp

deleted

QuoteDallas, may I ask, if you could, would you want to live just like you are now forever? Being perfectly and totally justified and perfect in Christ yet living exactly as you are now?

Sure. Because I will. Like Molly put so well, perfection is not about behavior or growing, it's about being complete and restored back to fellowship and life with God. You will never be perfect in the sense that you won't make mistakes or discoveries beyond yourself.

QuoteThe bible never makes that an issue, Europen/North American Christianity has.

This idea of being 'perfect' has, I think, a different definition in the Bible than what we might normally consider.

To be made perfect in the Bible is to be made complete, and to be made complete is to be in union with Christ.

Therefore, whenever I am walking in the Spirit, in union with Christ, I am perfect and complete.  That is not to say that I won't keep learning and growing and becoming more as he is, but that is not the point.  The point is the moment in time that is perfection because of the relationship.

-Molly  :thumbsup:


I agree Molly but I asked because my point is that we are not in a perfect state IMO if we keep going from perfection to imperfection and back again. We will only be in a perfect state when we can remain Christ like in every facet of our being and make-up." -claypot


I am Christlike forever, never dip in or out...because Jesus died on the cross I have been remade in His image and likeness for He has clothed me in Christ. My behavior has nothing to do with that, for what the law couldn't do I have obtained in Christ. I am spotless and without blesmish, not in spirit, but in eternity, then now and forever. If the law has taught us one thing, it's not through works that I am made perfect.


Galatians 3:3 "Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?"

QuoteDallas, may I ask, if you could, would you want to live just like you are now forever? Being perfectly and totally justified and perfect in Christ yet living exactly as you are now?

cp

Let me ask you now, after death when you think you will recieve a body that is without sin, what will be different that you have now? As you said, perfect in spirit already, what will be different? Not a physical end, but a continuing on forever right?

So will be different?

Well the main thing I hope will be different will be the frustrations, guilt, fears, torments I see around me and in me. I hope they will cease to exist in every way.

You want to live exactly like you are living now? You don't experience pain or hurt in any way? What about all the evil that exists around you? Do you consider your existence right now, in all ways, Heaven?

You say perfection is not about behavior or growing. I'm going to think on these words of yours. Is perfection about having peace within? As you look around at all the pain and misery of others do you really have a peace that gives you a perfect tranquil existence?

When you stub your toe do you feel physical pain? I'm serious here.

I am perfect in Christ and in Christ there is no pain and probably no stubbing of toes but I do feel pain now and it ain't Heaven.

Do you experience any frustrations discussing things on this forum?

cp

Quote from: Dallas on April 21, 2010, 05:11:47 AM

QuoteDallas, may I ask, if you could, would you want to live just like you are now forever? Being perfectly and totally justified and perfect in Christ yet living exactly as you are now?

cp

Let me ask you now, after death when you think you will recieve a body that is without sin, what will be different that you have now? As you said, perfect in spirit already, what will be different? Not a physical end, but a continuing on forever right?

So will be different?

Dallas, how do you know what I think?

I have to go and I don't know if I responded to your questions properly. Please re-ask if I missed anything. I value your thoughts.

cp

To me the difference with the full redemption, that including the body is largely the liberation of the physical from Adamic nature into born of God nature. Put twins side by side.  One is born of Spirit and Godly and the other is wicked and not believing there is a God.  They both look physically alike.  When these bodies of humiliation are transfigured into a body like Jesus' body of glory we will be able to assume physical manifestation of all sorts if we want.  Like God when talking with Moses said something like, "I could've manifested as a ball of fire; but, then you would've been tempted to worship the sun.  So, you saw no form.  You only heard the Word that spoke to you."

As well, the metamorphosis of the body will make it possible to see God as He is and partake directly of the Holy Spirit, not as we do now in promisory foretaste or an "earnest."

Quote from: Nathan on April 20, 2010, 07:59:41 PM

"Current state" observations reveal imperfect status.  "Finished state" observation reveals perfect redemption.  Walking in the flesh is walking in current status.  Walking in the spirit is walking in the finished works.  I become what I behold.

I intend to memorize that Nathan.  Well put, "...like apples of gold in bowls of silver."

cp and others, I've just always thought of it as being more "miraculous" than that, more of a consummation done by Him, not so based on my own ability to focus on "the right things".  I am not saying that's not important, I believe it is, just that there's more - that's HE's going to take care of-

19If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.

The Order of Resurrection
20But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
21For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.

22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

23But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,
24then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.

25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

26The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

27For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.

28When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.



30Why are we also in danger every hour?

31I affirm, brethren, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.


33Do not be deceived: "Bad company corrupts good morals."

34Become sober-minded as you ought, and stop sinning; for some have no knowledge of God I speak this to your shame.

35But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?"

36You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies;

37and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else.


40There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another.



42So also is the resurrection of the dead It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;

43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;

44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

45So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL " The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.


49Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.

The Mystery of Resurrection
50Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,

52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

53For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.

55"O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?"

56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law;

57but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your toil is not in vain in the Lord.

Quote from: CPmy point is that we are not in a perfect state IMO if we keep going from perfection to imperfection and back again. We will only be in a perfect state when we can remain Christ like in every facet of our being and make-up.

I don't think it is perfection you are talking about so much as complete redemption, and Paul himself echoed this sentiment.


Romans 8:23
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Quote from: Nathan on April 20, 2010, 07:59:41 PM

Quote from: Dallas on April 20, 2010, 06:18:36 PM
Hey Nathan;

If you believe then that your spirit is complete and perfect then what benifit is there for you since you are still a slave to the carnal flesh? That carnal flesh hasmore power over you than even the sacrifice of the cross, or so it seems you preach.

It almost feels like you're ignoring the bulk of what is being said in order to continue pushing your point.  For one, I never said that I am still a slave to the flesh, I said when I "chose" to live by my reasoning, that choice results in becoming enslaved to the flesh.  Because my mind is very much influence and can be decieved by the things of the flesh.  That's why I believe we are called to walk in the spirit.  "That" is where our authority and perfection is.

Why would Scripture tell us that our minds need to be renewed daily by the word if we are completely perfect in every way?   
Walking in the spirit is walking in the finished works.  I become what I behold.

To understand Spirit, we must first understand scripture! The New Testament as it is written in Greek. The Greek definition is almost exactly the same as the Hebrews.  In the Septuagint the Jews used "pneuma" in Greek in the same way that they used "ruah" in Hebrew.

A. Spirit (ruah & pneuma ) - Breath of life. The vital principle by which the body is animated.

It is the life force that God gives to people and animals which animates their bodies, which gives them life. When He takes it away they die.

Examples:

Psalms 104: 29-30: "When you take away their breath (pneuma), they perish and return to the dust from which they came. When you send forth your breath (pneuma), they are created."

Ecclesiastes 12:7: "And the dust returns to the earth as it once was, and the life breath (pneuma) returns to God who gave it."

Psalms 33:6: "When his spirit (pneuma) departs he returns to his earth; on that day his plans perish."

This definition is extremely important when one interprets a verse such as Luke 23:46:

"Father, into your hands I commend my spirit (pneuma);" and when he said this he breathed his last."

If you use the Greek philosophical definition as most people do, you will arrive at the conclusion that at that moment Jesus' Greek type spirit went to heaven to be with God. This of course is not possible because after three days when Jesus was resurrected, he appeared to Mary of Magdala and told her:

"Stop holding on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father" (John 20:17).

If we use the intended Jewish definition of spirit it will make perfect sense. Jesus' breath of life returned to God and he died. This is in accordance with the Scriptures and definition listed above and does not conflict with John 20:17. It is the intended Jewish meaning. A second very important meaning of "spirit" is:

Spirit (ruah) - is often used of a man's mind-set, disposition, or temper. The word is used of one's mind or thinking.

Spirit (pneuma) - the Spirit is said to dwell in the minds  of Christians. purpose.

Paul uses spirit and mind interchangeably as he quotes Isaiah 40:13 in the New Testament. Let's take a look at these verses.

Isaiah 40:13: "Who has directed the spirit of the LORD, or has instructed Him as His counselor?"

Romans 11:34: "Who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been His counselor?"

1 Corinthians 2:16: "For who has known the mind of the Lord, so as to counsel Him?"

It is clear that for Paul, the spirit of the LORD is the mind of the LORD. These definitions are crucial in order to understand many verses of the Bible. If you are one in spirit with Jesus it means that you are one in mind with Jesus. That you have the same mind-set, the same disposition, that you think the same as he does. This after all is what a Christian strives for, to try to reach the example of faith that Jesus showed us. To be able to discern the will of God as Jesus did so perfectly. We are told to have the same mind, the same attitude as Christ.

Examples:

1 Corinthians 2:16: "But we have the mind of Christ."

Philippians 2:2: "Complete my joy by being of the same mind, with the same love, united in heart, thinking one thing."

1 Peter 4:1: "Therefore, since Christ suffered in the flesh, arm yourself with the same attitude, for whoever suffers in the flesh has broken with sin, so as not to spend what remains of one's life on human desires, but on the will of God."

Philippians 2:5: "Have among yourselves the same attitudethat is also yours in Christ Jesus."

With these definitions we can better understand a verse like

1 Corinthians 7:17: "But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit." In other words, whoever unites himself with the Lord is one with him in mind, mind-set, attitude, thinking, or in purpose, which are all synonymous. Here are some other examples. Try substituting one of the given definitions where it says "spirit" and you will get a clearer meaning of the verse.

Numbers 5:14: "Or if a man is overcome by a spirit of jealousy."


Galatians 6:1: "Even if a person is caught in some transgression, you who are spiritual should correct that one with the spirit of gentleness."

1 Corinthians 2:12: "We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit that is from God."

Deuteronomy 34:9: "Now Joshua, son of Nun, was filled with the spirit of wisdom."

Genesis 41:8: "Next morning his spirit was agitated."

This definition of "spirit" is still very popular even among our own society. A article in Flying Careers magazine was about how some pilots volunteer their time for such programs as Young Eagles or Angel Flight. The title of the article was "The Spirit of Volunteering." Another way of saying the same thing is, "The mind-set of Volunteering." A paragraph in the article says, "Many organizations provide opportunities for those in the spirit." This phrase sounds like something right out of the New Testament, but as we all know, the writer is simply saying that many organizations provide opportunities for those in the right frame of mind.

With this understanding, and by comparing some other verses we can now comprehend more fully what Jesus meant when he told Nicodemus in John 3:3-5:



"No one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again" ...no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and spirit"

Jesus is telling Nicodemus that unless you make a commitment to God (which is demonstrated by baptism) and be born again of the mind, you will not enter the kingdom of God. Our minds have to be born again, they have to think differently than they did when they followed the flesh. Our minds have to be renewed in order to be able to discern and follow the will of God.

Romans 12:2: "Do not conform yourself to this age but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may discern what is the will of God."

Ephesians 4:23: "And be renewed in the spirit (purpose) of your minds."

2 Corinthians 4:16: "Although our outer self is wasting away, our inner self (spirit i.e. mind) is being renewed day by day."



Colossians 3:9-10: "Stop lying to one another, since you have taken off the old self with its practices and have put on the new self (new mind),which is being renewed, for knowledge in the image of its creator."

Romans 7:6: "Dead to what held us captive, so that we may serve in the newness of the spirit (mind) and not under the obsolete law. You will notice that in many of the verses that we are reading, the adjectives that are attributed to renewal are adjectives that are associated with our minds, such as knowledge, discern, etc.

The new covenant that Jesus ushered in is of the mind and not the letter. The Mosaic covenant was of the letter. The majority of the people followed it in my opinion, because of fear of the consequences and not because they truly believed that the law was good. This is why they had such hardships in the desert for forty years. They kept reverting to their pagan ways that they had adopted in Egypt. They had not truly accepted the law within their minds. Let me give you an example: I do not steal because in my mind I believe it to be wrong, and not because I fear the penalty of being caught stealing. There are people who do not steal simply because they do not want to end up in prison. Lets suppose that the government said that on a given Friday stealing will not be considered a crime. I still would not steal because God's law is in me.

But you can be sure that there would be a lot of people who normally do not steal that on Friday would steal because God's law is not in them. Here are a few examples:

Jeremiah 31:31-33: "The days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant (Mosaic covenant) I made with their fathers the day I took them by the hand to lead them forth from the land of Egypt... But this is the covenant (ushered in by Jesus) which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD. I will place my law within them, and write it upon their hearts."

Hebrews 8:10: "I will put my laws in their minds."

2 Corinthians 3:5-6: "Rather, our qualification comes from God, who has indeed qualified us as ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of spirit"(of the mind).

Romans 2:28: "One is not a Jew (follower of God in this context) outwardly. True circumcision is not outward, in the flesh. Rather, one is a Jew inwardly, and circumcision is of the heart, in the spirit, not the letter."

Romans 7:25: "Therefore, I myself, with my mind, serve the law of God, but with my flesh, the law of sin." Christianity is a war in fought in our minds. The war is between good and evil. We strive to follow the will of God over the will of our flesh.

Romans 7:22-23: "For I take delight in the law of God, in my inner self (mind), but I see in my members another principle at war with the law of my mind, taking me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members."

Romans 7:25: "I myself, with my mind serve the law of God but, with my flesh, the law of sin."

This understanding of spirit in relation to the mind is essential if one is going to understand what Paul meant when he said in Romans 8:9:

"Whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you."

What does Paul mean when he says "Whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him?" Are we suppose to have a Greek-type spirit of Jesus living inside of us along with God's Spirit? Are we like a shell housing all these different spirits, our own spirit, God's Spirit, and Jesus' spirit? Of course not. What Paul is saying is that whoever does not have the mind-set or mind of Christ does not belong to him. Remember earlier how it was shown that we are to have the mind of Christ. If we believe his word, his teachings on the kingdom of God we will have the same mind-set as he does, we will be of one mind. This is how Christ is in us. His word, his teachings are in us. When we have Christ in us we have the knowledge of God's plan of salvation (the gospel) for us, our hope for glory. Christ dwells in us through our faith in his words.

John 15:7: "If you remain in me (Jesus) and my words remain in you."

Colossians 3:16: "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly."

Ephesians 3:17: "And that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith."

2 Corinthians 11:10: "By the truth of Christ (his words) that is in me."

Colossians 1:17: "It is Christ in you, the hope for glory."

Ephesians 4:21: "assuming that you have heard of him (Jesus) and were taught in him, as truth is in him."

Colossians 2:6: "So, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, walk in him, rooted in him and built upon him and established in the faith as you were taught."


This is the Jewish meaning of Christ dwelling in us. It is vastly different from the Greek philosophical point of view our Churches teach today!

Paul

It is something miraculous though, Paul.  It's not like I listen to Jesus speak and decide in my mind, that makes sense, I'll agree with that.  We are often called to go against what looks like our own best interests.  Try telling all those rich bankers not to steal and see how far you get.  [Not far, I've tried it.]

Just the phrases used show it is a gift and a miracle--born from above, the firstborn of many brothers, --that something profound has happened and that everything has changed.  We now belong to a new family.  We are a different species, a new man.  Homo sapiens sapiens novus.  


Revelation 21:5
And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

All I know for sure is that right now when I stub my toe I experience pain, when money starts running low I get worried, when I hear of others in pain and misery I feel for them.

Knowing (a real renewal of my mind) that God is working in us to do and to will of His good pleasure has brought me so much peace lately. It really has. I believe Jesus knew this yet He cried and got frustrated and was tormented, and not in the flesh only, but He had peace within, real peace, the kind you can't buy at Walmart.

Molly, I think it was you who said it, what I am talking about is full redemption. Heaven to me is not a partial redemption.

cp

 

Quote from: claypot on April 21, 2010, 02:24:46 PM
All I know for sure is that right now when I stub my toe I experience pain, when money starts running low I get worried, when I hear of others in pain and misery I feel for them.

Knowing (a real renewal of my mind) that God is working in us to do and to will of His good pleasure has brought me so much peace lately. It really has. I believe Jesus knew this yet He cried and got frustrated and was tormented, and not in the flesh only, but He had peace within, real peace, the kind you can't buy at Walmart.

Molly, I think it was you who said it, what I am talking about is full redemption. Heaven to me is not a partial redemption.

cp

Quote from: Zeek on April 21, 2010, 02:40:54 PM

and imo, it will always be a "partial redemption" as long as you are identified with an external world changing in order to be at "full peace". 

I understand Zeek and how can I not identify with this external world when I stub my toe and feel pain? In Christ I firmly believe I am saved yet in the very real now I hurt and stumble. I can't imagine the now away, can I? Can you?

I don't understand the last part of your sentence.................'changing in order to be at full peace'. What are you saying here Zeek?

cp

Quote from: Zeekand imo, it will always be a "partial redemption" as long as you are identified with an external world changing in order to be at "full peace".  

Since you mentioned it--


1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

--Rev 20



I believe those angels are men.  I keep watching for them.



"angels"

H4397
מלאך
mal'âk
mal-awk'
From an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy; a messenger; specifically of God, that is, an angel (also a prophet, priest or teacher): - ambassador, angel, king, messenger.

Quote from: claypot on April 21, 2010, 02:24:46 PM
All I know for sure is that right now when I stub my toe I experience pain, when money starts running low I get worried, when I hear of others in pain and misery I feel for them.

Knowing (a real renewal of my mind) that God is working in us to do and to will of His good pleasure has brought me so much peace lately. It really has. I believe Jesus knew this yet He cried and got frustrated and was tormented, and not in the flesh only, but He had peace within, real peace, the kind you can't buy at Walmart.

Molly, I think it was you who said it, what I am talking about is full redemption. Heaven to me is not a partial redemption.

cp

Quote from: Zeek on April 21, 2010, 02:40:54 PM
and imo, it will always be a "partial redemption" as long as you are identified with an external world changing in order to be at "full peace". 

I understand Zeek and how can I not identify with this external world when I stub my toe and feel pain? In Christ I firmly believe I am saved yet in the very real now I hurt and stumble. I can't imagine the now away, can I? Can you?

Quote from: Zeek on April 21, 2010, 03:35:55 PM

It seems you are saying, when there is no more "stimulus (external world)" to cause pain and suffering, then heaven will be "full".  ? 

It's imo, not the pain of stubbing your toe that is the problem, it's the judgment of it that keeps one in "partial redemption".  The "judgment of it" as "right/wrong, or incomplete" and the "hope" for it to be different that keeps one in "sickness".

I'm saying when there is no more pain then my redemption will be complete. Do you experience pain now Zeek? Do you shed tears now?

And God shall wipe away all  tears  from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain : for the former things are passed away.rev 21.4

Quote from: Zeek on April 21, 2010, 03:35:55 PM
The "attachment" I'm talking about is not the "feeling of the pain", but rather the judgment of it.  The "need/desire" for it to be different than what it is. 

Hope deferred makes the heart sick.

I do have a desire to have no pain. I don't like pain nor do I like seeing it in my fellow humans. I can imagine or wish it away but it is still there, if not for me it is for others. Even Jesus wept.

Quote from: Zeek on April 21, 2010, 03:35:55 PM
make any sense?  or am I off on some tangent, reading into this conversation/thread from my own weird perspective?

Zeek, we are 2 people seeking to understand each other so we can better understand God. I hate to say it in the midst of this particular discussion but we are trying to undo our imperfections through sharing here so neither one of us is totally right or wrong. To me you are a very insightful person so if you are off on a tangent then I am right with ya Brother.

cp

 

Quote from: claypot on April 21, 2010, 03:07:14 PM

I can't imagine the now away, can I? Can you?

Quote from: Zeek on April 21, 2010, 03:44:32 PM
No, but you can be aware of "the part of you" that is trying to "wish it away", that "wants to have it be different", and realize that that "part of you" is impermanent; and will "change" as soon as something "good" happens in your life.   and realize that the part of you that is tossed back and forth like the waves, is not "you".  It's the "old man" still struggling to have life. 

There is a "true you" that is one with the Father and at peace.  But for HIM to be revealed; imo; requires awareness of the "old man's voice".  Sin in me, but not me. 

a double minded man is "unstable" in all his ways. 
   

I hear ya Zeek. I am putting off the old man while putting on the new. I am doing this as I type. I am doing it yet it is a work in progress by none other than God Himself for it is He who is working in me to will and to do of His good pleasure.

I don't see myself nor anyone else as double minded who is doing this putting off and on but I do see it as a 'double' kind of work. Again I see it as a done deal and I see it as a work in progress. It is done, as Jesus said on the cross, yet I am living it out as I type.

cp

 

Quote from: Zeek
and imo, it will always be a "partial redemption" as long as you are identified with an external world changing in order to be at "full peace". 

Quote from: Molly on April 21, 2010, 03:50:21 PM
Since you mentioned it--

1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

--Rev 20



I believe those angels are men.  I keep watching for them.

Good stuff Molly. I see the angels as pure divine thoughts within my mind. Creating the mind of Christ within our beings. These Godly thoughts will cast down every evil imagination of our hearts.

I too keep watching for them to spring up in my being. Because it is God who is at work in me doing as He desires, it's like I'm watching a Master Painter do His work. It's amazing when He paints a brush stroke and I SEE it!

cp

 

Quote from: claypot on April 21, 2010, 04:02:15 PM
Do you experience pain now Zeek? Do you shed tears now?

Quote from: Zeek on April 21, 2010, 04:15:16 PM

Being in pain and being sad---NO

Experiencing pain and sadness---Yes


God imo is not sad, not in pain, but does experience sadness and pain.

No more tears imo, is a reference to who I AM, not what I experience.

Interesting deductions and I will think on these more, thanks Zeek.

I know who I am in Christ and I know what I am experiencing now. HMMMMMM. I do experience complete bliss at times yet I do experience 'less than bliss' often enough. I guess my whole point here is, no matter how you put it, I will be completely redeemed when I don't go back and forth between putting off the old man and putting on the new.

cp

Quote from: Zeek
and imo, it will always be a "partial redemption" as long as you are identified with an external world changing in order to be at "full peace". 

Quote from: Molly on April 21, 2010, 03:50:21 PM
Since you mentioned it--

1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

--Rev 20



I believe those angels are men.  I keep watching for them.

Quote from: claypot
Good stuff Molly. I see the angels as pure divine thoughts within my mind. Creating the mind of Christ within our beings. These Godly thoughts will cast down every evil imagination of our hearts.
I too keep watching for them to spring up in my being. Because it is God who is at work in me doing as He desires, it's like I'm watching a Master Painter do His work. It's amazing when He paints a brush stroke and I SEE it!

cp

Quote from: Zeek on April 21, 2010, 04:20:12 PM
see, imo; you are identyfing with "our heart" as the "old heart".  that's imo a lie

I hear ya Zeek but in my mind I was identifying 'our hearts' with the 'old man' that I am putting off and have put off 'in Christ'.

Zeek, are you putting off the old man and putting on the new?

cp

Quote from: Zeek on April 21, 2010, 04:52:46 PM

I can't "put off" what is already "off", but I can be aware of it's presence. 

I understand Zeek but with me I seem to be in a constant state of putting off the old and putting on the new. I see myself as having totally put off the old in a 'big picture' way yet I see myself still struggling right now as I live and breathe in this mortal coil.

cp

The enablement to have things "put off" is definitely accounted for through the finished work of the cross.  Just as God stated that Eve would "desire" after Adam, but that he would "rule" over her, the same exact thing God said to Cain about the sin that was waiting at the door but he, Cain, would "rule" over it.

Neither Adam, nor Cain ruled over what they were given authority to rule over.  They "had" the authority, but they didn't "exercise" that authority.  I wholly believe I have the authority to cast off the old man.  But I also believe, for me to become the overcomer that God has proclaimed me to be, I need and want to exercise that authority to throw off that old man in me.  Heck, sometimes the old man shows up and "I" the inner me, the consiousness of me, I'm not even aware that it's happening until the spirit quickens the inner me of what's transpiring.

But yeah, the authority is always at our disposal, we just need to engage in it and exercise it where needed.

Quote from: Nathan on April 21, 2010, 07:51:06 PM
The enablement to have things "put off" is definitely accounted for through the finished work of the cross.  Just as God stated that Eve would "desire" after Adam, but that he would "rule" over her, the same exact thing God said to Cain about the sin that was waiting at the door but he, Cain, would "rule" over it.

Neither Adam, nor Cain ruled over what they were given authority to rule over.  They "had" the authority, but they didn't "exercise" that authority.  I wholly believe I have the authority to cast off the old man.  But I also believe, for me to become the overcomer that God has proclaimed me to be, I need and want to exercise that authority to throw off that old man in me.  Heck, sometimes the old man shows up and "I" the inner me, the consiousness of me, I'm not even aware that it's happening until the spirit quickens the inner me of what's transpiring.

But yeah, the authority is always at our disposal, we just need to engage in it and exercise it where needed.

God will accomplish it in you Brother. He will and you will be doing what you desire and more.

cp

QuoteLet me ask you now, after death when you think you will recieve a body that is without sin, what will be different that you have now? As you said, perfect in spirit already, what will be different? Not a physical end, but a continuing on forever right?

So will be different?


Dallas, how do you know what I think?

I have to go and I don't know if I responded to your questions properly. Please re-ask if I missed anything. I value your thoughts.

cp

I don't pretend to know what you think, but I do remember you agreeing that when we die we get a body of perfection, again not assuming, but just reading what you say and responding to it.

Also, the reason I am at peace, isn't because I have tranquility, but because I'm not at war. Peace when it was penned was a military term, it wasn't till much later and a cuture removed that peace incorporated the other meanings...peace was a military term to describe not being at war.

I am not at war, with God and He is not at war with me...I am at peace. I may stubb my toe and feel pain, but that won't remove my peace.

Quote from: Zeek on April 21, 2010, 04:15:16 PM

Quote from: claypot on April 21, 2010, 04:02:15 PM
Do you experience pain now Zeek? Do you shed tears now?

Being in pain and being sad---NO

Experiencing pain and sadness---Yes


God imo is not sad, not in pain, but does experience sadness and pain.

No more tears imo, is a reference to who I AM, not what I experience.

Hmmm... just curious...

How can anyone "EXPERIENCE" PAIN and yet, ...NOT be "IN" IT?  :Chinscratch:

QuoteHmmm... just curious...

How can anyone "EXPERIENCE" PAIN and yet, ...NOT be "IN" IT?

:thumbsup:

I think Commander Data did?

...pure fiction.

Quote from: Dallas on April 22, 2010, 01:56:29 AM

QuoteHmmm... just curious...

How can anyone "EXPERIENCE" PAIN and yet, ...NOT be "IN" IT?

:thumbsup:

I think Commander Data did?

:laughing7:  ...so, a "nonexistent" is the only one?  :laughhand:

Even then... did "it" [cmdr. data] really "experience" ...it?  :LH:

Or was "it" just programmed to SIMULATE "experiencing" ...it?  :JCThink: :mrflo:

Enough pain and you can't identify with anything else but the pain.  I know by experience.  God can come and bring you above it or deliver you from it in several ways.  But, the idea that pain is optional to our awareness, you can just think about something else, is a vain imagination from lack of experience.

willieH: Hi reFormer...  :cloud9:

Quote from: reFORMer on April 22, 2010, 05:45:26 AM
Enough pain and you can't identify with anything else but the pain.  I know by experience.  God can come and bring you above it or deliver you from it in several ways.  But, the idea that pain is optional to our awareness, you can just think about something else, is a vain imagination from lack of experience.

:nod: ...I agree completely with this reF...   :ok:

Just have an intrusive surgery... or an absessed tooth... or a limb lost to a shark bite... or developed (latter stage), CANCER, ...with no pain suppressing medications... and see if you can sidestep such "PAIN"...

Many speak from the voice of INEXPERIENCE... concerning, being ...IN PAIN...  :sigh:

Do you know what it means to be IN DENIAL?

Quote from: reFORMer on April 22, 2010, 05:45:26 AM
Enough pain and you can't identify with anything else but the pain.  I know by experience.  God can come and bring you above it or deliver you from it in several ways.  But, the idea that pain is optional to our awareness, you can just think about something else, is a vain imagination from lack of experience.

Not sure I fully agree in the sense that by concentraiting your mind on one "focal point" must have some degree of affect, otherwise it would not be the fundamental teaching nurses give to every expecting mother as they prepare for the pain of childbirth.  I don't know if I could say your mind can eliminate all pain, but I do believe the natural mind can inflate it and make it worse than what it actually is.

(Rom. 8:22) For we know that the WHOLE CREATION GROANETH AND TRAVAILETH IN PAIN TOGETHER UNTIL NOW.

Paul said to those who believed as he did that "not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, EVEN WE OURSELVES GROAN WITHIN OURSELVES, WAITING FOR THE ADOPTION TO WIT, THE REDEMPTION OF OUR BODY.

CHB

I like what one writer in the old Soviet Union said.  "Don't believe anything I say; because, when they torture me, I'll say anything they want me to."

Quote from: reFORMer on April 22, 2010, 07:09:18 AM
Do you know what it means to be IN DENIAL?

Better YET, do you know what it means to be shown the TRUTH when the many are not?

That's the real question!

Either it's universal salvation, the death of the soul, or the Trinity doctrine?   Jesus' knows his own body!

INDEED! Do we know what it means to be IN DENIAL??

Yes, that is the question! :Chinscratch:

CLV Ecc 3:11 He has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity in their heart So that the man may not find out His work, That which the One, Elohim, does from the beginning to the terminus."

Oh, how hard it is to find his works?  Do we really know? Or are we just the ones saying LORD LORD in... Mat 7:21??


That's the million dollar question!
Paul

Depends on where my identity is.  Those in Matt. crying Lord, Lord had theirs in ministry works rather than intimate relationship.  It was all about what "they" did in God's name, rather than what "he" did in them.