Fear Vs Horror

[Paul Hazelwood]

The idea eternal hell has nothing to do with "Fear" of the Lord.   All the accounts of going to hell and all the visions describing it do not express "fear" they express Horror.


Horror as a means by which we should obey God is not scriptural.

[peacemaker]

"Fear is the parent of cruelty or violence."

peacemaker

[WhiteWings]

If rejecting the infinite God requires punishment of infinite duration, I guess the punishment itself should be of infinite severity....

[Paul Hazelwood]

We cannot completely remove fear from the interpretations of scripture. not every use of it carries a definition of Awe like we often hear, just look them up if you doubt that.


Perfect Love  "CASTS" out fear,  but as children fear can be healthy till we understand why.   We do not hestitate to cast some fear into children to keep them from doing something they cannot understand or reason through and it is righteous to do such things.  Love will bring us to the understanding how fear kept us safe and love casts it out when we understand why.  

I am certainly glad I was afraid to do certain things in my life, and now I know why it is a great thing that I never did them.  Cam we instill fear in the wrong places?  Yes,  just as we can misapply compassion and enable people in poor behavior.

Horror is a different matter,  there is no scriptural basis for using horrors.

The question then remains as a believer, should a person fear sinning willfully?  Why or why not?

[Paul Hazelwood]

If rejecting the infinite God requires punishment of infinite duration, I guess the punishment itself should be of infinite severity....

This is why I maintain that the abstract use of aionios as everlasting has it's place.    There are many consequenses we avoid even if we know they will not last forever because while enduring them it seems to last for such a long time we really don't want to experience it for any length of time, let alone be in a realm where we could not anticipate when it will end.

[peacemaker]

When you know to do that which is good, but don't?
Ignorance doesn't kill you, but missing the mark makes you sweat a lot.

"Better is correction with an honest answer, than a smack in the face or a false kiss."

peacemaker

[willieH]

If rejecting the infinite God requires punishment of infinite duration, I guess the punishment itself should be of infinite severity....

BIG "IF"  :laughing7:

"REJECTION" is as ordained as "RECIEIVING"... neither of which are due PUNISHMENT, for neither are decided by MEN...

John 6:44 -- No man --- CAN --- come to me... EXCEPT the Father which hath sent Me, draw [drag in Gk] him to Me...

CHRIST noted to the JEWS, the YHVH IMPOSED blindness, which they did NOT comprehend:

John 7:34-36 -- YE shall seek Me, and shall NOT FIND Me, and where I am, thither YE CANNOT COME... then said the JEWS among THEMSELVES -- whither will He go that WE shall not FIND Him?  Will He go unto the despersed among the Gentiles and teach Gentiles?  What manner of saying is this that he said:  Ye shall seek Me, and shall NOT FIND ME, and where I AM, thither YE CANNOT COME....

We cannot even COME to CHRIST except YHVH do the work... and THEN the WORD shall only reveal SOME (those CHOSEN) to the Father:

Matt 11:27 -- ALL THINGS are DELIVERED unto Me of My Father; and NO MAN knoweth the Son, but the Father, neither KNOWETH ...ANY MAN... the Father, save the Son and he -- TO WHOMSOEVER the SON will REVEAL Him

It is NOT -- "up to us" to RECIEVE or REJECT -- ALL is given to CHRIST to "decide" (including said "recieving and rejecting")...

It is the WORK of the SHEPHERD to FIND the Sheep, ...NOT... for the "sheep" to FIND the Shepherd...  :dontknow:

Luke 19:10 -- for the Son of man IS COME to --- SEEK --- and to SAVE that which was LOST.

That which IS LOST (which is the entirety of ALL in ADAM), is sought by the SHEPHERD... and each in turn, are SAVED ...in DUE TIME:

1 Tim 2:6 -- who gave Himself a ransom for ALL to be TESTIFIED in DUE TIME...

...willieH   :HeartThrob:

[willieH]

When you know to do that which is good, but don't?
Ignorance doesn't kill you, but missing the mark makes you sweat a lot.

"Better is correction with an honest answer, than a smack in the face or a false kiss."

peacemaker

:goodpost: PM!  :laughing7:

...willieH   :HeartThrob:

[Beloved Servant]

If rejecting the infinite God requires punishment of infinite duration, I guess the punishment itself should be of infinite severity....

BIG "IF"  :laughing7:

"REJECTION" is as ordained as "RECIEIVING"... neither of which are due PUNISHMENT, for neither are decided by MEN...

John 6:44 -- No man --- CAN --- come to me... EXCEPT the Father which hath sent Me, draw [drag in Gk] him to Me...

CHRIST noted to the JEWS, the YHVH IMPOSED blindness, which they did NOT comprehend:

John 7:34-36 -- YE shall seek Me, and shall NOT FIND Me, and where I am, thither YE CANNOT COME... then said the JEWS among THEMSELVES -- whither will He go that WE shall not FIND Him?  Will He go unto the despersed among the Gentiles and teach Gentiles?  What manner of saying is this that he said:  Ye shall seek Me, and shall NOT FIND ME, and where I AM, thither YE CANNOT COME....

We cannot even COME to CHRIST except YHVH do the work... and THEN the WORD shall only reveal SOME (those CHOSEN) to the Father:

Matt 11:27 -- ALL THINGS are DELIVERED unto Me of My Father; and NO MAN knoweth the Son, but the Father, neither KNOWETH ...ANY MAN... the Father, save the Son and he -- TO WHOMSOEVER the SON will REVEAL Him

It is NOT -- "up to us" to RECIEVE or REJECT -- ALL is given to CHRIST to "decide" (including said "recieving and rejecting")...

It is the WORK of the SHEPHERD to FIND the Sheep, ...NOT... for the "sheep" to FIND the Shepherd...  :dontknow:

Luke 19:10 -- for the Son of man IS COME to --- SEEK --- and to SAVE that which was LOST.

That which IS LOST (which is the entirety of ALL in ADAM), is sought by the SHEPHERD... and each in turn, are SAVED ...in DUE TIME:

1 Tim 2:6 -- who gave Himself a ransom for ALL to be TESTIFIED in DUE TIME...

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

WOW

[Paul Hazelwood]

When you know to do that which is good, but don't?Ignorance doesn't kill you, but missing the mark makes you sweat a lot.

"Better is correction with an honest answer, than a smack in the face or a false kiss."

peacemaker

So really you do not think it is a big deal to willfully sin?

[martincisneros]

If rejecting the infinite God requires punishment of infinite duration, I guess the punishment itself should be of infinite severity....

The one time that sin is considered infinite in an older translation of the Bible, in Job, it's obviously in the sense in which Josephus and others have used the word, in terms of a great multitude rather than strictly having an attribute of God, i.e. being infinite in the proper sense.  David says in Psalm 16:

"2O my soul, thou hast said unto the LORD, Thou art my Lord: my goodness extendeth not to thee;"

Now, whether he's speaking as himself or as Christ in that Psalm, either way, the force of the argument isn't diluted in the least that if goodness doesn't extend to God, then how much less sin, the act of a worm?  Sin cannot Scripturally be deemed infinite.

[Beloved Servant]

Romans 7:17

Weymouth New Testament
and now it is no longer I that do these things, but the sin which has its home within me does them.

Praise God, we are an abyss!
The serpent is leaving our heel, forever!

[martincisneros]

Romans 7:17

Weymouth New Testament
and now it is no longer I that do these things, but the sin which has its home within me does them.

Praise God, we are an abyss!
The serpent is leaving our heel, forever!

Romans 7:23 is the answer to this, when you're still dealing with the law of God, or His promises being written in your mind rather than in your flesh, and obviously there must be transition from the law, or promise, in the mind described here and the flesh quickening spirit taking over in Romans 8:11 and that's where the discipleship to the Word comes in that's described in every verse between those with realizing that each detail was worked out of the Cross rather than something to be willed in the traditional sense.

Our will must be exercised for the only thing it was created for, not deciding between good and evil, which even WillieH would tell you is an absurdity, but for the express purpose of meditating on the finished work of the Cross and seeing every need already fulfilled through every line of the New Covenant that we're heirs of according to Ephesians 2:11-22.

The more we meditate on the finished realities brought to us by the Scriptures and His Spirit 'til they produce the resolve to behave accordingly, to that degree that we're meditating on those precious promises according to 2Peter 1, then we're His workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works, according to Ephesians 2:10 'cause it's not of him who wills or him who runs, but of God who shows mercy, according to Romans, and with these meditations through what we put our mouth on of His precious promises according to 1Peter 3:10 and innumerable other passages is how we work out our own salvation with fear and trembling, receiving the will to be, to have, and to do according to His good pleasure as Philippians says.

We press into the Word until the same mind was in us that was also in Christ Jesus who thought it not robbery to be called equal with God and when we do, we're beyond the veil and seated with Him in heavenly places receiving all of these things from His Word and by His Spirit regarding the specifics as settled realities that we're simply waiting on Him for the timing on, on when that window of heaven is opened through which we live, move, and have our being.

[Beloved Servant]

WONDERFUL !
Acts 17: 28

Weymouth New Testament
For it is in closest union with Him that we live and move and have our being; as in fact some of the poets in repute among yourselves have said, 'For we are also His offspring.'


WONDERFUL.

[martincisneros]

WONDERFUL !
Acts 17: 28

Weymouth New Testament
For it is in closest union with Him that we live and move and have our being; as in fact some of the poets in repute among yourselves have said, 'For we are also His offspring.'


WONDERFUL.

Comparing the Scriptures about it not being will power being generated with the Scriptures that speak of Him writing these things on our heart with the Scriptures like Romans 1 that say that the invisible things are declared by the visible lets us know that when He says He'll write His laws upon our hearts, if the invisible things are known by the visible according to Romans 1 and many other passages, then He's writing His laws upon our muscles SO THAT WE CAN will and to do according to His good pleasure.

Now, since we've got two hearts in the flesh with the one in our chest and the one that's our entire muscle mass, which corresponds to the two realms of David's fallen tabernacle, or the married life, a holy place and a holy of holies, then the more our spirits via our mouths pump the faith of God into the rest of our bodies via the hearing and hearing by the Word of God coming out of us, then the development of our ability through our time in the Word grows and shrinks accordingly, in the way that our physical bodies gain development by usage, but it's all rooted in what's going on in the holy of holies or the physical heart that most people think of when you speak of the physical heart.

As we participate in the divine nature by confessing the Word over and over again, giving the fruit of our lips, and all of the other relevant passages regarding a believer's priestly ministry, then we add to our faith, according to 2Peter 1, or each of the various other organs of the recreated human spirit that are listed for us as the things added to faith in 2Peter 1 because they've become the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen, as meditation is becoming manifestation of the completed work of the Cross; we progress from our 'who' to our 'do,' as Joyce Meyer would say.

This addition to our faith proportionately adds to our ability to obey, but it all comes out of that time with getting the Word in the heart and in the mouth 'til the hands, feet, eyes, and everything else are heading in that way, according to Proverbs 4.  The Covenant does translate into actions and no longer being bound by futility through the regeneration of the spirit.

It's those spiritual muscles coming under development as the will of the head is applied through diligence to communion with one's head in His Word and obedience in the big things grows through doing the one thing that's needful, through all of the baby steps of what seems mundane, and then ultimately what's our resurrection becomes the resurrection power we're ministering to all of Creation around ourselves and we're even redeeming the time, or what's otherwise known in the Word as multiplying the bread with our thanksgiving.

Heavens are opened big time right now!  Been trying to say that again, among many other things, since '07. :Sparkletooth: :HeartThrob: :bgdance:

[peacemaker]

When you know to do that which is good, but don't?
Ignorance doesn't kill you, but missing the mark makes you sweat a lot.

"Better is correction with an honest answer, than a smack in the face or a false kiss."

So really you do not think it is a big deal to willfully sin?

Many who lack knowledge have not been taught or are given incorrect information, thus, they have no understanding.
I would not call that being willful, rather they are ignorant.

"A child may ignorantly touch a burning stove, but they will learn from the experience."

However, if they knew better than it is foolishness; unwise.

peacemaker

[Paul Hazelwood]

The issue with Romans is about avoiding the personal condemnation that our wrong doings can separate us from God as much of religion will say it does.

There is nothing that excludes us from the judgment of our wrong doings.

The PROBLEM would start and is the huge flaw in religion is if I took it upon myself to declare to anyone what I think that judgment may be other than a warning that there is a reason God tells us to strive to run the race, fight the good fight, and other verses that admonishes us to not do wrong things.

No condemnation in Jesus Christ is a statement that the judgment God delivers onto us  in having to account for our lives will not exclude us from learning righteousness.   

[reFORMer]

Fear is a form of worship.  Whatever we fear the most is a lord to us.  If, in our minds, the biggest muscle in our neighborhood is not God, then we are subject to whatever else is.  Are we afraid of what will be done to us, or afraid we'll fail?  Do we fear being like Esau, who, "...wanting to enjoy the allotment blessing, he is rejected, for he did not find a place of repentance, even seeking it out with tears?"  Whatever the worst thing we fear is, we may have to go through that very thing until we discover God is greater.  We must "suffer the loss of all things" to find out what God can do with "a grain of mustard seed."  It was through death Jesus qualified to have the keys to death.  If we do not fear God more than anything else, then we haven't been under His chastening rod sufficiently to distinguish God from everything else.  And, since, "The end of the Lord is mercy," until we discover, "Mercy is His darling attribute," it is in fact His throne, we do not yet know the Lord as He should be known.  The extent to which we fear God is the extent to which we will serve Him.  The truth is there is nothing else you should be afraid of but God.  Nothing else can demand your service or bend you to its will if you fear God alone.

I have been suddenly cut off, and that without remedy several times.  When I sinned in His face, God kicked me so far from Him I never came back.  When you intentionally, willfully use God's gifts to do what He hates and He seizes hold of you, shakes you, and dips you in Himself as Total burning, bright flaming fire so there is nothing else you can think of for a while, only the burnings, and then He holds you up face to face with Him expecting to see His own image looking back at Him...

"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom," but, "Fear is not in love," and "God is love."  So, in its end, wisdom morphs into, "The love of Christ that transcends understanding."  "...perfect love is casting out fear, for fear has chastening. Now he who is fearing is not made perfect in love."  This is a walk.  Jesus is the Way.  We have to start somewhere.  We find ourselves in clay vessels.  There is a life force, a bios (Greek) that must come under discipline, until we become the servant God would have His offspring be.  The child cannot be given the keys to the car.  You cannot have access to the account until you are old enough.  While we wear suits of flesh and blood we have farther yet to go.  Though the embodiment of glory is at hand, to wear God as we wear our body is opened to us, and we've even had times where we had crossed over, until we come to the perfect man, a finished man, "...a mature man, to the measure of the stature of the complement of the Christ,"  until we  are so "...in love [that] we should be making all grow into Him, Who is the Head -- Christ -- out of Whom the entire body, being articulated together and united through every assimilation of the supply, in accord with the operation in measure of each one's part, is making for the growth of the body, for the upbuilding of itself in love" we must go on, pressing into all that God has for us.  It is the one thing that the apostle Paul said he was doing:  "...yet one thing -- forgetting, indeed, those things which are behind, yet stretching out to those in front -- toward the goal am I pursuing for the prize of God's calling above in Christ Jesus."  He also calls it, "...attaining to the resurrection that is out from among the dead," and, a transfigured body of glory:  "For our realm is inherent in the heavens, out of which we are awaiting a Saviour also, the Lord, Jesus Christ, Who will transfigure the body of our humiliation, to conform it to the body of His glory, in accord with the operation which enables Him even to subject all to Himself.  It is also said to us that, "Whoever, then, are mature, may be disposed to this."  We are still in this race to reach the finish line before death can take us out.  For those who do, they are no longer subject to death.

The wicked transgress because, "there is no fear of God before their eyes."  David said, "Before I was chastened I went astray."  After describing Jesus' agony to submit to His Father and not sin, even to sweating great drops of blood, the Scripture goes on to say:

Hebrews 12:4-11 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
4 Not as yet unto blood did you repulse, when contending against sin.
5 And you have been oblivious of the entreaty which is arguing with you as with sons: My son, do not disdain the discipline of the Lord, Nor yet faint when being exposed by Him.
6 For whom the Lord is loving He is disciplining, Yet He is scourging every son to whom He is assenting.
7 For discipline are you enduring. As to sons is God bringing it to you, for what son is there whom the father is not disciplining?
8 Now if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, consequently you are bastards and not sons.
9 Thereafter, indeed, we had the fathers of our flesh as discipliners, and we respected them. Yet shall we not much rather be subjected to the Father of spirits and be living.
10 For these, indeed, disciplined for a few days as it seemed best to them, yet that One for our expedience, for us to be partaking of His holiness.
11 Now all discipline, indeed, for the present is not seeming to be a thing of joy, but of sorrow, yet subsequently it is rendering the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those exercised through it.

[aspiring son]

WONDERFUL !
Acts 17: 28

Weymouth New Testament
For it is in closest union with Him that we live and move and have our being; as in fact some of the poets in repute among yourselves have said, 'For we are also His offspring.'


WONDERFUL.

Comparing the Scriptures about it not being will power being generated with the Scriptures that speak of Him writing these things on our heart with the Scriptures like Romans 1 that say that the invisible things are declared by the visible lets us know that when He says He'll write His laws upon our hearts, if the invisible things are known by the visible according to Romans 1 and many other passages, then He's writing His laws upon our muscles SO THAT WE CAN will and to do according to His good pleasure.

Now, since we've got two hearts in the flesh with the one in our chest and the one that's our entire muscle mass, which corresponds to the two realms of David's fallen tabernacle, or the married life, a holy place and a holy of holies, then the more our spirits via our mouths pump the faith of God into the rest of our bodies via the hearing and hearing by the Word of God coming out of us, then the development of our ability through our time in the Word grows and shrinks accordingly, in the way that our physical bodies gain development by usage, but it's all rooted in what's going on in the holy of holies or the physical heart that most people think of when you speak of the physical heart.

As we participate in the divine nature by confessing the Word over and over again, giving the fruit of our lips, and all of the other relevant passages regarding a believer's priestly ministry, then we add to our faith, according to 2Peter 1, or each of the various other organs of the recreated human spirit that are listed for us as the things added to faith in 2Peter 1 because they've become the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen, as meditation is becoming manifestation of the completed work of the Cross; we progress from our 'who' to our 'do,' as Joyce Meyer would say.

This addition to our faith proportionately adds to our ability to obey, but it all comes out of that time with getting the Word in the heart and in the mouth 'til the hands, feet, eyes, and everything else are heading in that way, according to Proverbs 4.  The Covenant does translate into actions and no longer being bound by futility through the regeneration of the spirit.

It's those spiritual muscles coming under development as the will of the head is applied through diligence to communion with one's head in His Word and obedience in the big things grows through doing the one thing that's needful, through all of the baby steps of what seems mundane, and then ultimately what's our resurrection becomes the resurrection power we're ministering to all of Creation around ourselves and we're even redeeming the time, or what's otherwise known in the Word as multiplying the bread with our thanksgiving.

Heavens are opened big time right now!  Been trying to say that again, among many other things, since '07. :Sparkletooth: :HeartThrob: :bgdance:

That's a good word, Martin. I enjoyed that.

[Beloved Servant]

me too.

[rosered]

 

  Hi all ,
  I really liked this thread , good questions and answers  Paul Hazelwood
as of late  :thumbsup:

   good stuff guys


   its the thing with God to show us  with this heavenly knowledge  that we will do   what is right in Gods sight
  we cannot possibly  ''guess '' what God want from us

  Like Martin says the full knowledge  and Light of Jesus Christ must come first   in our hearts
   to be even accountable  before God
 
  Paul you asked ,So really you do not think it is a big deal to willfully sin?

we are only measured by what we are given ....
  those whom have little are  not  judged at all by God

  remember how Jesus told those who judged the flesh and was harsh against it , but no flesh pleases God  so     he judged no man  according to the flesh
but if he judged his judgment was true ?   and Showed mercy to those whom were being judged  by the  unjust judges

there is some real depths to consider and discern in this part of understanding  God and His purpose

[Paul Hazelwood]

Paul you asked ,So really you do not think it is a big deal to willfully sin?

we are only measured by what we are given ....
  those whom have little are  not  judged at all by God

  remember how Jesus told those who judged the flesh and was harsh against it , but no flesh pleases God  so     he judged no man  according to the flesh
but if he judged his judgment was true ?   and Showed mercy to those whom were being judged  by the  unjust judges

there is some real depths to consider and discern in this part of understanding  God and His purpose

So are you saying you do not know if it is a big deal, or are you saying it isn't a big deal?

Forgive me if I am wrong, but I think I asked a simple yes or no question.    If you are aware that you have done a willful act of disobedience to God  what does it matter?

[rosered]

Paul you asked ,So really you do not think it is a big deal to willfully sin?

we are only measured by what we are given ....
  those whom have little are  not  judged at all by God

  remember how Jesus told those who judged the flesh and was harsh against it , but no flesh pleases God  so     he judged no man  according to the flesh
but if he judged his judgment was true ?   and Showed mercy to those whom were being judged  by the  unjust judges

there is some real depths to consider and discern in this part of understanding  God and His purpose

So are you saying you do not know if it is a big deal, or are you saying it isn't a big deal?

Forgive me if I am wrong, but I think I asked a simple yes or no question.    If you are aware that you have done a willful act of disobedience to God  what does it matter?

LOL sorry Paul ,  Let me be clear  yes for those whom it is given the full knowledge of the TRUTH   YES and NO  for those whom are not given the   
full knowledge    , so for  my answer it is ,yes and no . 

You  are referring to Hebrews 10  right Paul ?  Just how far can one  push Gods grace ?   and  who has this  full knowledge  and type of  faith given  ?  This would be   my question now ...  we know that the sin of Israel was idolatry/unfaithful   and the sin of all the rest of the  nations is blasphemy/ lies    :dontknow:



26 Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth,
  there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins.

27 There is only the terrible expectation of God's judgment and the raging fire that will consume his enemies.

  28 For anyone who refused to obey the law of Moses was put to death without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

29 Just think how much worse the punishment will be for those who have trampled on the Son of God, and have treated the blood of the covenant, which made us holy,

as if it were common and unholy, and have insulted and disdained the Holy Spirit who brings God's mercy to us.

30 For we know the one who said,

   "I will take revenge.
      I will pay them back''

   He also said,

   "The Lord will judge his own people."
31 It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

32 Think back on those early days when you first learned about Christ. Remember how you remained faithful even though it meant terrible suffering.

33 Sometimes you were exposed to public ridicule and were beaten, and sometimes you helped others who were suffering the same things.

  34 You suffered along with those who were thrown into jail, and when all you owned was taken from you, you accepted it with joy. You knew there were better things waiting for you that will last forever.

35 So do not throw away this confident trust in the Lord. Remember the great reward it brings you!

36 Patient endurance is what you need now, so that you will continue to do God's will. Then you will receive all that he has promised.


  a simple yes  to the wilful  and simple  no , to the unknowing , this may be why the Lord does not give it all to us right now . just a thought 

[peacemaker]

A rhetorical question implies that the answer is obvious. A kind of question that does not actually need to be answered. Rather, it is used for persuasive effect without the expectation or requirement of a lengthy response, putting the emphasis on a supposed truth by also stating the opposite.

"Have you ever been caught stealing?"

Yes or No, although it matters not, how you answer this question. :mshock:

peacemaker

[Paul Hazelwood]

A rhetorical question implies that the answer is obvious. A kind of question that does not actually need to be answered. Rather, it is used for persuasive effect without the expectation or requirement of a lengthy response, putting the emphasis on a supposed truth by also stating the opposite.

"Have you ever been caught stealing?"

Yes or No, although it matters not, how you answer this question.

peacemaker

Actually this isn't about that at all.  Given your example the point would be if you steal knowing full well you shouldn't have, what difference would it make?

I'll even use myself as an example.   I used to smoke and I will not make the case as "religious" people do that smoking is a sin.  However for me it would be, there are factors in my life that tell me it would be in complete disobedience of what God has given me to start smoking again. 

Regardless of what people think about Free Will or not having any, I know that I could go to the store get a pack of Cigs and start puffing away if I wanted to.  But I do fear the turmoil it would bring into my life if I did so. That temptation at times is there occasionally, but due to what I just said it is actually very easy to refrain from smoking and I am glad for it.
This is the kind of fear that I think is scriptural and healthy to teach as believers.