Fear Vs Horror

[Beloved Servant]

Perfect love casts out all fear.

God is Love.

There is no fear in God or in Christ.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Perfect love casts out all fear.

God is Love.

There is no fear in God or in Christ.

So the guy buying crack for the homeless is doing gods work and has nothing to fear?

[Beloved Servant]

he is serving whom he chooses to serve.

[Paul Hazelwood]

he is serving whom he chooses to serve.

So it really makes no difference?

[Paul Hazelwood]

Just so that people are aware,  the example of the guy buying crack for the homeless is not hypothetical, this is a pastor of a church and a vocal Christian Universalist at least on the internet anyway.   This pastor brags that he never has to make any of his stories up, that they are all true.

So, it doesn't matter a hill of beans eh?

it's just whatever?

[Beloved Servant]

Matthew 8:18-20: "When Jesus saw the crowd around him, he gave orders to cross to the other side of the lake. Then a teacher of the law came to him and said, 'Teacher, I will follow you hwerever you go.'
"Jesus replied, 'Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.'

"Another disciple said to him, 'Lord, first let me go and bury my father.'

"But Jesus told him, 'Follow me, and let the dead bury the dead.'"



Luke 9:59-62
And he said unto another, Follow me.
But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.

Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

And another also said, Lord, I will follow thee; but let me first go bid them farewell, which are at home at my house.

And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Matthew 8:18-20: "When Jesus saw the crowd around him, he gave orders to cross to the other side of the lake. Then a teacher of the law came to him and said, 'Teacher, I will follow you hwerever you go.'
"Jesus replied, 'Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.'

"Another disciple said to him, 'Lord, first let me go and bury my father.'

"But Jesus told him, 'Follow me, and let the dead bury the dead.'"



Luke 9:59-62
And he said unto another, Follow me.
But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.

Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

And another also said, Lord, I will follow thee; but let me first go bid them farewell, which are at home at my house.

And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

So you've established that the scriptures tell you to not care about it.  ok, gotcha.


Mt 23:33  "Serpents! Progeny of vipers! How may you be fleeing from the judging of *Gehenna?


Good luck in your apathy.

[Beloved Servant]

And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.


I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you.

[Paul Hazelwood]

And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.


I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you.

Well, since you have nothing to fear, then it won't matter when you get trampled.

[Beloved Servant]

I learn obedience from what I suffer.
If I obey His commands, I will remain in His love, just as Jesus obeyed His Father's commands.

[Lefein]

The Gospel should not be abused as a license to sin.  To tempt the Lord your God is a sin, and he is our Father, to willingly do evil, or have poor behaviour so that grace might abound is a wicked thing that shows a wicked heart.

Sin brings fear, it was after the disobedience of Adam that they both ran away from God and hid themselves out of fear.

We should certainly fear the chastisement of the Lord when we are unrepentant, lukewarm, unloving, and sinful "saints" before the eyes of the righteous and holy God.  God wants noble priests, royal kings, good stewards, and legitimate sons who will worship in Spirit, Truth, and Love - not bastard children full of rebellion thinking that God won't deal with flagrant, blatant, known acts of sin.

Sin still exists, even if Grace covers it all.  But Grace is not Grace if the rapist tears through the flowers of fifty little girls while shaking his fist at God and doesn't reap what he has sown, Grace is not Grace if God winks an eye at the drug dealer introducing a playground to heroine, Grace is not Grace if housebreakers ply their wares and break families apart through divorce, lies, and theft.  They might not get the death penalty by fire, they might not be eternally damned by it, but they WILL be purified by the Lord our God who is THE All consuming fire!

And the eyes of a Holy God who is against your actions, and has come to chastise you is a fearful thing.  We fear the chastisement of our earthly parents when they punish us for doing wrong things, even though it is certainly done out of Love - the rod of God's remedial judgements are likewise fearful, yet twice loving.

God did not give us a lazy gospel, he expects us to work out our salvation with Him - not that works save us, but that if we are indeed claiming to be first fruits, we'd better act like it, and act like it through and by the grace and power of God who has shown us such loving kindness and mercy.

[Paul Hazelwood]

I learn obedience from what I suffer.
If I obey His commands, I will remain in His love, just as Jesus obeyed His Father's commands.

Too bad you have not learned yet.

[Paul Hazelwood]

I find it interesting that some take such an apathetic view to the issues that God has told us about.   To this pastor that may think he is doing Gods work by enabling someone with a crack addiction,  somehow this buffoon has twisted love and caring into thinking that easing a persons immediate pain by giving them a fix and certainly doing less to change the mans life on earth is righteous.  In reality he has not really loved his neighbor and has only puffed himself up in his own eyes and of those who revel in the wonder this man portrays himself to be.

But this teaching that nothing really matters because you can be a fool and just quote some verses from scripture and makes what you have done just go away is getting more ridiculous by the day. 

Maybe Jesus should have had sex with the prostitute, I mean, why not give her a fix, make her feel at ease with her life,  I mean what better a gift than the son of God boinking a prostitute to show his  L O V E for her.

No, he told her to go sin no more.

The example Jesus gave us shows how corrupt this nonsense is.  Jesus didn't sit back against a nice smooth sand dune and go, oh, I will learn from suffering, isn't that nice.   

No, in fact, of all of his time on earth,  of all his healing, of all his miracles, even the specific instructions that he gave on what way to pray, Jesus prayed the most gut wrenching and absolutely intense prayer he had ever made to AVOID suffering.

I know God is love, but when Jesus, the son of God, the most high prayes to avoid something,  I gaurantee you,  I will pay attention. 

But of course, hey, nothing really matters...  yep, I felt that way once and I was mentally ill, it is not of God, lest you be deceived.   Oh wait, that don't matter either.

[eaglesway]

I think most people have missed the point that I was making.

You say fear is not a part of the gospel, ok, but that is not what I was talking about.

Should you fear or not fear willfully sinning against God when you would go and do something knowing full well you were not supposed to?

There is a percentage of people that act like nothing they do matters because of the wondeful glorious gospel of Jeuss Christ,  I know someone who says they bought crack for a homeless person and think they are doing Gods worlk.

I suppose that doesn't matter a hill of beans?

If that's your gospel, you can have it, because it's a rotten stench.

I don't think I wrote anything in my post that integrates with that response, so I don't no why you included my quote, unless you didn t really read it. My points are 1) the gospel sets us free from fear 2) fear is the result of walking in the flesh 3) righteousness is the result of growing in grace 4) being perfected in love is the cure to fear, anger, pride, lust,etc.  Jesus warned the Pharisees to flee the wrath to come and to beware the fires of Gehenna.... they were the ones tying heavy loads on mens backs. Those who use grace as a license to sin are walking in the flesh, and the consequences of that are terrible- as are the consequences of walking in dead religion and the law. Defining fear as awe and reverence, and clearly understanding the severity of the consequence of rebellion- as opposed to horror, terror, etc. is an important distinction, IMO, and thats the only reason I posted.

[Lefein]

On that I agree Eaglesway, fear of the Lord is reverence.

My post I made specifically to point out that apathy is hideous in the sight of God, because apathy is a quick way into wickedness.  The apathetic don't put forth any effort in walking, they just lay down and expect a lazy gospel to take effect - alas there is a lion behind them and they're about to get their necks broken in his jaws.

Just to clarify.

[Beloved Servant]

Daniel was not alone in the lion's den.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Paul...  :cloud9:

It is become apparent that you shall not learn something new here, which is what is ORDAINED, and certainly fine with me... but that you will not, does not mean that others cannot benefit...

I think most people have missed the point that I was making.

You say fear is not a part of the gospel, ok, but that is not what I was talking about.

Should you fear or not fear willfully sinning against God when you would go and do something knowing full well you were not supposed to?

Really? ...Did DAVID know the truth of YHVH as he sent Bathsheba's husband to the "front" to die?  Was it an act of his "will" to do these things?  Sending a man to DIE so that he could have that man's wife?  Come on, Paul...

Is there a SIN which is not done "willfully"?  If so, which one, Paul?  One that you are "unaware" of doing (so you "did" it "unwillfully")? 

What is John saying in 1 John 1:7-9?  If we are making CONFESSION of SIN and that we HAVE SIN... then we must needs be AWARE of that which we did!  Otherwise, how may we CONFESS it? 

If the "sin" was done outside of our knowledge (unknowingly aside from the "will" which decided to "do it"), how may we make a CONFESSION of it, when we don't even KNOW we "DID IT"?  No offense, but that is ridiculous thinking IMO.

"Lord, I confess my sin of which I am unaware"?   :wacko2:  How may a heart, truly come to center upon the foundation of such meaningless words?  How may we find true heartfelt regret within such a "confession"?

How about the Apostle PAUL, brother Hazelwood?  ...was HE unaware of the "things he did not want to DO but ...DID"? -- Rom 7:15 -- Are you thinking the Apostle PAUL was unaware of these things he DETESTED "doing"?  Please!  :rolleye:  How could he DETEST them, when he didn't even KNOW what they were, ...or that he even DID them?  :dunno:

And what of this, Paul?

2 Cor 5:19 -- to wit that ...GOD... was IN CHRIST, reconciling the WORLD unto Himself... NOT IMPUTING their TRESPASSES [sin] UNTO THEM, and hath committed unto US the WORD of RECONCILIATION...

To discover Spiritual meaning in the Holy texts... we must use them in conjunction with one another -- Isaiah 28:10 & 13 --- So one text of itself, cannot stand alone as a testimony of itself... it must be harmonized elsewhere, using REASON in the process -- Isaiah 1:18 -- Acts 17:2  :dontknow:

This Scripture (2 Cor 5:19) in conjunction with others, is saying (as I see it):

(1) --- The WORD of RECONCILIATION that is to be TAUGHT to others is THIS:  GOD was IN CHRIST, reconciling the WORLD unto Himself... NOT IMPUTING their TRESPASSES [sin] UNTO THEM

(2) --- There is NO FEAR of GOD to be found in the believer... for LOVE casts out FEAR -- 1 John 4:18 -- via the presentation of the  message of the GOSPEL which speaks of GOD in CHRIST, RECONCILING the WORLD, ...NOT IMPUTING the trespasses of MEN in the process of that reconciliation.

(3) --- That you shall REAP what you SOW -- Gal 6:8 -- and that SOWING unto the flesh shall bring JUDMGENT and WRATH to the doer NOW -- Rom 1:18 -- which is NOT to FEAR (be afraid of) GOD,  ...but to be cognizant that the decisions made will either bring BLESSING as they are aligned with the SPIRIT or CORRUPTION (consequence) as they are aligned with the FLESH.

It is THIS that Heb 10:26  is conveying...

We are AMIDST GOD NOW -- Acts 17:28 -- and HE is a CONSUMING FIRE -- Heb 12:29 -- which is IN the process of that "CONSUMING" -- 1 Cor 3:11-15 -- Mark 9:49

As the deeds of men are done in SIN... the CORRUPTION which is BORN of it... will prevail IN the FLESH, NOW (during the EARTHLY lifetime of the individual)  It is NOT in some "afterlife" that this takes place... rather it is IN THIS LIFE, ...NOW... as CHRIST clearly testified -- John 12:31 as did His Apostles -- Rom 1:18 -- the WRATH of GOD ...IS... revealed... not "will be".

The resurrection is not a moment in which PAIN and TORMENT shall be inflicted upon men for SIN... rather it is the REVELATION of ALL in ALL that shall take place in it, ...and IN that REVELATION shall ALL know of ALL, as they KNOW as they are KNOWN (which is completely)... This shall bring great SHAME upon many -- Rev 3:18 -- which shall exact their TEARS (of regret)... which GOD shall (LOVINGLY) DRY -- Rev 20:4

JESUS IS the "RESURRECTION" -- John 11:25 -- those who RISE (which is ALL), ...rise IN HIM...  :dontknow:  Be it the 1st RESURRECTION or the 2nd RESURRECTION.  Those who "rise" in this life... shall gain the clothing of CHRIST which covers the appearance of SIN -- Rev 3:18

MEN ...KNOW NOT what they "DO", Paul -- Luke 23:34 -- Jer 10:23 -- Prov 20:24 -- Prov 21:1 -- Prov 16:1 & 9

There is a percentage of people that act like nothing they do matters because of the wondeful glorious gospel of Jeuss Christ,  I know someone who says they bought crack for a homeless person and think they are doing Gods worlk.

Maybe there are such "believers"... I have not encountered any.  All believers that I have come to know, are VERY concerned about what they "DO"... hoping to please GOD in what they "DO"... not carelessly rummaging through their lives wrecklessly... but seeking to overcome in any area of weakness, seeking the STRENGTH of GOD to guide them past it, and OUT of it.

I do not think anyone here believes anything like this, ...it is nothing but your uninformed assumption.  Those who truly believe in CHRIST shall not give "crack" to a homeless person, thinking to do "God's work"... get real...  Maybe you know of such a person, ...but that FOOLISHNESS, is not transferrable to those who are here @ Tentmaker.

Also... those who truly believe in YHVH and His Son... serve Him out of LOVE, not FEAR (being afraid of Him).  Without thought of reward, but doing RIGHT because GOD says in His WORD, that it is RIGHT to do it, no other reason is necessary.

I suppose that doesn't matter a hill of beans?

I have never seen a "hill of beans"...  :laughing7:  You indeed have your own individual experience... but cannot and should not, deduce others according to YOUR experience... for you have no KNOWLEDGE of the experience of the one you might think to conclude.

If that's your gospel, you can have it, because it's a rotten stench.

You are welcome to your opinion, which is all that it is...  :dontknow:  No one has "their own gospel"... not even YOU.

For the GOSPEL is not according to P. Hazelwood or willieH or Eaglesway or Jabcat, ...but according to the WORD of GOD... (which you have not employed in this post.)  :sigh:


...willieH  :cloud9:

[Paul Hazelwood]

willieH: Hi Paul...  :cloud9:

It is become apparent that you shall not learn something new here, which is what is ORDAINED, and certainly fine with me... but that you will not, does not mean that others cannot benefit...

If that is ordained then you shall be content with any responce I or anyone else gives and that includes my previous responces.

Thank you for being content with the work of the lard.

[willieH]

Perfect love casts out all fear.

God is Love.

There is no fear in God or in Christ.

So the guy buying crack for the homeless is doing gods work and has nothing to fear?

Matt 7:22-23 --- MANY will say unto Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful WORKS? ...And then will I profess unto them, I ...NEVER KNEW YOU, ...depart from Me, ye that work iniquity

Many will be thinking to be and claiming to be, "coming in the name of CHRIST"... and "doing" all the wrong things...  :dontknow:

This particular "pastor" (certainly a loosely given title)... is amidst his own "brand of deception"...  There are many "cultish" leaders and groupings that exist, ...which think and CLAIM, that they are doing the work of God, yet are really only serving themselves, and their own individual agendas.

As well, there are MILLIONS (even BILLIONS) of Christian "believers" that bring the deception of HELL to the unbelieving WORLD in the "name" of God,  ...which in its own way is EVERY BIT as poisonous as this "pastor" giving the homeless person drugs in the "name" of God.  :sigh:

...willieH  :cloud9:

[Lefein]

Really? ...Did DAVID know the truth of YHVH as he sent Bathsheba's husband to the "front" to die?  Was it an act of his "will" to do these things?  Sending a man to DIE so that he could have that man's wife?  Come on, Paul...

Yes, this was David's will.  And David lost a son for it too.

If the "sin" was done outside of our knowledge (unknowingly aside from the "will" which decided to "do it"), how may we make a CONFESSION of it, when we don't even KNOW we "DID IT"?  No offense, but that is ridiculous thinking IMO.

The Holy Spirit is a pretty smart ol' chap.  And his eyes are sharp too.  He convicts us of what we don't know, and brings to rememberence things to confess, and repent of.

And that as they say, answers that question.

You really should give God the Spirit alot more credit than that WillieH. :/

[Paul Hazelwood]

  You indeed have your own individual experience... but cannot and should not, deduce others according to YOUR experience... for you have no KNOWLEDGE of the experience of the one you might think to conclude.

Yet, you conclude that I SHALL NOT learn something new here.   LOL, I have learned plenty and simply because it does not agree with what you believe does not mean a thing concerning what I learn or don't learn.

Yes indeed, others can greatly benefit from your posts, and sometimes it will be to not believe as you do.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Paul...  :cloud9:

It is become apparent that you shall not learn something new here, which is what is ORDAINED, and certainly fine with me... but that you will not, does not mean that others cannot benefit...

If that is ordained then you shall be content with any responce I or anyone else gives and that includes my previous responces.

Thank you for being content with the work of the lard.

EVERYTHING that you and I do and say in this thread, was DECLARED to be manifest... by GOD, ...looooooong before we "did and said" any of these things... and YES... I am very content.  :boogie:

But acknowledge with RESPECT at all times... the work of the LORD (not "lard")  :thumbdown:

FYI... I have NO agenda to change you or your beliefs in any way.  And yet, reserve the right to oppose those beliefs as it is ORDAINED that I do...  :dontknow:

You are welcome believe any imagination your mind can produce, it is fine with me.  :thumbsup:  But as those imaginations appear on this board (and God has made me aware of them), they will be OPPOSED if they are not in line with the WORD.  That does not mean I shall follow you around for it is not about YOU.

It is not my work that I do, it is His as He has DECLARED all that I shall do and say...  as well, He shall make me aware of the places and threads in which He decides I shall be a participant. :nod:  Without regard to your presence or absence.

...willieH  :cloud9:

[Lefein]

EVERYTHING that you and I do and say in this thread, was DECLARED to be manifest... by GOD, ...looooooong before we "did and said" any of these things... and YES... I am very content.  :boogie:

Lets apply this shall we? :D  Here goes!  *quotes and posts*

But acknowledge with RESPECT at all times... the work of the LORD (not "lard")  :thumbdown:

God made Paul put Lard, not Lord, so don't argue with God.  It was ordained that way.  But then again it was ordained for you to argue with God, and so God made you argue with God who made Paul put lard instead or lord.

FYI... I have NO agenda to change you or your beliefs in any way.  And yet, reserve the right to oppose those beliefs as it is ORDAINED that I do...  :dontknow:

Of course not, because God made Paul oppose your beliefs which God made you have, and ordained you to have.  In essence, God ordained Paul to believe A, and ordained you to believe B, and ordained you to argue over A, and B, and made you believe, and do all of these things entirely against your say so in any of the matter.  So basically...its all God's fault that you and he believe differently, and so basically, Paul is correct, and absolutely right, because God can't lie, and God made him do it.

Paul is 100% correct in everything he believes, and does, and so are you, because God did it, made you guys do it, and ordained you to do do it, even if your beliefs are incompatible and thus you two are arguing over it...albeit against your will being ordained to argue, God having made you do it.

You are welcome believe any imagination your mind can produce, it is fine with me.  :thumbsup:  But as those imaginations appear on this board (and God has made me aware of them), they will be OPPOSED if they are not in line with the WORD.  That does not mean I shall follow you around for it is not about YOU.

He's not "welcome" to "believe any imagination" his mind can produce, because God doesn't give him any say so!  God ordained it all, and made him believe it.  Just like you.  They aren't opposed to God's will at all!  And so his beliefs are 100% true - because God ordained them to be so.  God can't lie, not in action, word, or deed, and anything done by his will is not an untruth, or lie.

It is not my work that I do, it is His as He has DECLARED all that I shall do and say...  as well, He shall make me aware of the places and threads in which He decides I shall be a participant. :nod:  Without regard to your presence or absence.

But it has everything to do with his presence and absence, because Paul is perfectly right!  You'd better be ordained to listen to what God has ordained to happen through Paul, because according to you, what Paul is saying is ordained of the Lord to be done, and hence is the Word of God being made manifest!

....Kinda puts an awkward spin on things...doesn't it?

Then again, I've been ordained to post this whole post, and it is the word of God, 100% correct, and unarguable, and perfect, and if you argue against it, it is only because God has ordained for you to argue against it, and so in essence the word of God is arguing with the word of God, or more accurately; The Ordinance of God is arguing against The Ordinance of God...an ordinance being something that has been "ordained"...

But wait!...

If anything of God is arguing against anything of God, especially if the Ordinance of God is arguing against the Ordinance of God...Then that means that God is a divided mind and a divided house!

That can't be right...Because that is completely impossible.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Lefein...  :happygrin:

Really? ...Did DAVID know the truth of YHVH as he sent Bathsheba's husband to the "front" to die?  Was it an act of his "will" to do these things?  Sending a man to DIE so that he could have that man's wife?  Come on, Paul...

Yes, this was David's will.  And David lost a son for it too.

Thanks, Lefein...

You admit that David KNEW the TRUTH, and that he WILLFULLY SINNED...

The loss of a son, ...REAPING and SOWING... IN THIS LIFE... :dontknow:

If the "sin" was done outside of our knowledge (unknowingly aside from the "will" which decided to "do it"), how may we make a CONFESSION of it, when we don't even KNOW we "DID IT"?  No offense, but that is ridiculous thinking IMO.

The Holy Spirit is a pretty smart ol' chap.  And his eyes are sharp too.  He convicts us of what we don't know, and brings to rememberence things to confess, and repent of.

And that as they say, answers that question.

hmmm... don't be in such a hurry to pat yourself on the back.  :laughing7:   you almost answered the question...

What about the Apostle Paul, lefein?  -- Rom 7:15 -- Did he "hate" things he wasn't even aware that he DID?   :Whistle:

You really should give God the Spirit alot more credit than that willieH. :/

There is no such thing as "God the Spirit"... GOD is SPIRIT...

It is not up to you to decide the respect and credit that  >>I GIVE<<  unto YHVH

I hold YHVH in the HIGHEST esteem... and RESPECT...  :bowing: YHVH

...willieH  :cloud9:

[Paul Hazelwood]

willieH: Hi Paul...  :cloud9:

It is become apparent that you shall not learn something new here, which is what is ORDAINED, and certainly fine with me... but that you will not, does not mean that others cannot benefit...

If that is ordained then you shall be content with any responce I or anyone else gives and that includes my previous responces.

Thank you for being content with the work of the lard.

EVERYTHING that you and I do and say in this thread, was DECLARED to be manifest... by GOD, ...looooooong before we "did and said" any of these things... and YES... I am very content.  :boogie:

But acknowledge with RESPECT at all times... the work of the LORD (not "lard")  :thumbdown:

FYI... I have NO agenda to change you or your beliefs in any way.  And yet, reserve the right to oppose those beliefs as it is ORDAINED that I do...  :dontknow:

You are welcome believe any imagination your mind can produce, it is fine with me.  :thumbsup:  But as those imaginations appear on this board (and God has made me aware of them), they will be OPPOSED if they are not in line with the WORD.  That does not mean I shall follow you around for it is not about YOU.

It is not my work that I do, it is His as He has DECLARED all that I shall do and say...  as well, He shall make me aware of the places and threads in which He decides I shall be a participant. :nod:  Without regard to your presence or absence.

...willieH  :cloud9:

Actually you manifest one of the worst kinds of spiritual evil, you pretend that all you do and all you say is not you Willieh but  it is the work of the lard, that you only are decreeing what God intended for you to say. 

You make a conclusion about me and whether I shall learn or not and then cast aside your own responsibilities for what you say and say that it is merely God who has caused you to say that and therefore it is good.

I grew up in that spiritual prison, being told as a youngster that since a man declaring his spiritual fruits as ordained by God then I must listen and agree and believe what he says. 

What evil that was and nothing has changed, just because you come in the cloak of All men saved does not mean you will not reap the fruits of your destructive nonsense.