Tentmaker Forum

The idea eternal hell has nothing to do with "Fear" of the Lord.   All the accounts of going to hell and all the visions describing it do not express "fear" they express Horror.


Horror as a means by which we should obey God is not scriptural.

"Fear is the parent of cruelty or violence."

peacemaker

If rejecting the infinite God requires punishment of infinite duration, I guess the punishment itself should be of infinite severity....

We cannot completely remove fear from the interpretations of scripture. not every use of it carries a definition of Awe like we often hear, just look them up if you doubt that.


Perfect Love  "CASTS" out fear,  but as children fear can be healthy till we understand why.   We do not hestitate to cast some fear into children to keep them from doing something they cannot understand or reason through and it is righteous to do such things.  Love will bring us to the understanding how fear kept us safe and love casts it out when we understand why.  

I am certainly glad I was afraid to do certain things in my life, and now I know why it is a great thing that I never did them.  Cam we instill fear in the wrong places?  Yes,  just as we can misapply compassion and enable people in poor behavior.

Horror is a different matter,  there is no scriptural basis for using horrors.

The question then remains as a believer, should a person fear sinning willfully?  Why or why not?

Quote from: WhiteWings on February 06, 2010, 09:08:37 AM
If rejecting the infinite God requires punishment of infinite duration, I guess the punishment itself should be of infinite severity....

This is why I maintain that the abstract use of aionios as everlasting has it's place.    There are many consequenses we avoid even if we know they will not last forever because while enduring them it seems to last for such a long time we really don't want to experience it for any length of time, let alone be in a realm where we could not anticipate when it will end.

When you know to do that which is good, but don't?
Ignorance doesn't kill you, but missing the mark makes you sweat a lot.

"Better is correction with an honest answer, than a smack in the face or a false kiss."

peacemaker

Quote from: WhiteWings on February 06, 2010, 09:08:37 AM
If rejecting the infinite God requires punishment of infinite duration, I guess the punishment itself should be of infinite severity....

BIG "IF"  :laughing7:

"REJECTION" is as ordained as "RECIEIVING"... neither of which are due PUNISHMENT, for neither are decided by MEN...

John 6:44 -- No man --- CAN --- come to me... EXCEPT the Father which hath sent Me, draw [drag in Gk] him to Me...

CHRIST noted to the JEWS, the YHVH IMPOSED blindness, which they did NOT comprehend:

John 7:34-36 -- YE shall seek Me, and shall NOT FIND Me, and where I am, thither YE CANNOT COME... then said the JEWS among THEMSELVES -- whither will He go that WE shall not FIND Him?  Will He go unto the despersed among the Gentiles and teach Gentiles?  What manner of saying is this that he said:  Ye shall seek Me, and shall NOT FIND ME, and where I AM, thither YE CANNOT COME....  

We cannot even COME to CHRIST except YHVH do the work... and THEN the WORD shall only reveal SOME (those CHOSEN) to the Father:

Matt 11:27 -- ALL THINGS are DELIVERED unto Me of My Father; and NO MAN knoweth the Son, but the Father, neither KNOWETH ...ANY MAN... the Father, save the Son and he -- TO WHOMSOEVER the SON will REVEAL Him

It is NOT -- "up to us" to RECIEVE or REJECT -- ALL is given to CHRIST to "decide" (including said "recieving and rejecting")...

It is the WORK of the SHEPHERD to FIND the Sheep, ...NOT... for the "sheep" to FIND the Shepherd...  :dontknow:

Luke 19:10 -- for the Son of man IS COME to --- SEEK --- and to SAVE that which was LOST.

That which IS LOST (which is the entirety of ALL in ADAM), is sought by the SHEPHERD... and each in turn, are SAVED ...in DUE TIME:

1 Tim 2:6 -- who gave Himself a ransom for ALL to be TESTIFIED in DUE TIME...

Quote from: peacemaker on February 06, 2010, 09:43:18 PM
When you know to do that which is good, but don't?
Ignorance doesn't kill you, but missing the mark makes you sweat a lot.

"Better is correction with an honest answer, than a smack in the face or a false kiss."

peacemaker

:goodpost: PM!  :laughing7:

Quote from: willieH on February 06, 2010, 11:23:48 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on February 06, 2010, 09:08:37 AM
If rejecting the infinite God requires punishment of infinite duration, I guess the punishment itself should be of infinite severity....

BIG "IF"  :laughing7:

"REJECTION" is as ordained as "RECIEIVING"... neither of which are due PUNISHMENT, for neither are decided by MEN...

John 6:44 -- No man --- CAN --- come to me... EXCEPT the Father which hath sent Me, draw [drag in Gk] him to Me...

CHRIST noted to the JEWS, the YHVH IMPOSED blindness, which they did NOT comprehend:

John 7:34-36 -- YE shall seek Me, and shall NOT FIND Me, and where I am, thither YE CANNOT COME... then said the JEWS among THEMSELVES -- whither will He go that WE shall not FIND Him?  Will He go unto the despersed among the Gentiles and teach Gentiles?  What manner of saying is this that he said:  Ye shall seek Me, and shall NOT FIND ME, and where I AM, thither YE CANNOT COME....  

We cannot even COME to CHRIST except YHVH do the work... and THEN the WORD shall only reveal SOME (those CHOSEN) to the Father:

Matt 11:27 -- ALL THINGS are DELIVERED unto Me of My Father; and NO MAN knoweth the Son, but the Father, neither KNOWETH ...ANY MAN... the Father, save the Son and he -- TO WHOMSOEVER the SON will REVEAL Him

It is NOT -- "up to us" to RECIEVE or REJECT -- ALL is given to CHRIST to "decide" (including said "recieving and rejecting")...

It is the WORK of the SHEPHERD to FIND the Sheep, ...NOT... for the "sheep" to FIND the Shepherd...  :dontknow:

Luke 19:10 -- for the Son of man IS COME to --- SEEK --- and to SAVE that which was LOST.

That which IS LOST (which is the entirety of ALL in ADAM), is sought by the SHEPHERD... and each in turn, are SAVED ...in DUE TIME:

1 Tim 2:6 -- who gave Himself a ransom for ALL to be TESTIFIED in DUE TIME...

...willieH    :HeartThrob:

WOW

Quote from: peacemaker on February 06, 2010, 09:43:18 PM
When you know to do that which is good, but don't?Ignorance doesn't kill you, but missing the mark makes you sweat a lot.

"Better is correction with an honest answer, than a smack in the face or a false kiss."

peacemaker

So really you do not think it is a big deal to willfully sin?

Quote from: WhiteWings on February 06, 2010, 09:08:37 AMIf rejecting the infinite God requires punishment of infinite duration, I guess the punishment itself should be of infinite severity....

The one time that sin is considered infinite in an older translation of the Bible, in Job, it's obviously in the sense in which Josephus and others have used the word, in terms of a great multitude rather than strictly having an attribute of God, i.e. being infinite in the proper sense.  David says in Psalm 16:

"2O my soul, thou hast said unto the LORD, Thou art my Lord: my goodness extendeth not to thee;"

Now, whether he's speaking as himself or as Christ in that Psalm, either way, the force of the argument isn't diluted in the least that if goodness doesn't extend to God, then how much less sin, the act of a worm?  Sin cannot Scripturally be deemed infinite.

Romans 7:17

Weymouth New Testament
and now it is no longer I that do these things, but the sin which has its home within me does them.

Praise God, we are an abyss!
The serpent is leaving our heel, forever!

Quote from: Beloved Servant on February 07, 2010, 05:31:58 AM

Romans 7:17

Weymouth New Testament
and now it is no longer I that do these things, but the sin which has its home within me does them.

Praise God, we are an abyss!
The serpent is leaving our heel, forever!

Romans 7:23 is the answer to this, when you're still dealing with the law of God, or His promises being written in your mind rather than in your flesh, and obviously there must be transition from the law, or promise, in the mind described here and the flesh quickening spirit taking over in Romans 8:11 and that's where the discipleship to the Word comes in that's described in every verse between those with realizing that each detail was worked out of the Cross rather than something to be willed in the traditional sense.

Our will must be exercised for the only thing it was created for, not deciding between good and evil, which even WillieH would tell you is an absurdity, but for the express purpose of meditating on the finished work of the Cross and seeing every need already fulfilled through every line of the New Covenant that we're heirs of according to Ephesians 2:11-22.

The more we meditate on the finished realities brought to us by the Scriptures and His Spirit 'til they produce the resolve to behave accordingly, to that degree that we're meditating on those precious promises according to 2Peter 1, then we're His workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works, according to Ephesians 2:10 'cause it's not of him who wills or him who runs, but of God who shows mercy, according to Romans, and with these meditations through what we put our mouth on of His precious promises according to 1Peter 3:10 and innumerable other passages is how we work out our own salvation with fear and trembling, receiving the will to be, to have, and to do according to His good pleasure as Philippians says.

We press into the Word until the same mind was in us that was also in Christ Jesus who thought it not robbery to be called equal with God and when we do, we're beyond the veil and seated with Him in heavenly places receiving all of these things from His Word and by His Spirit regarding the specifics as settled realities that we're simply waiting on Him for the timing on, on when that window of heaven is opened through which we live, move, and have our being.

WONDERFUL !
Acts 17: 28

Weymouth New Testament
For it is in closest union with Him that we live and move and have our being; as in fact some of the poets in repute among yourselves have said, 'For we are also His offspring.'


WONDERFUL.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on February 07, 2010, 05:58:05 AM
WONDERFUL !
Acts 17: 28

Weymouth New Testament
For it is in closest union with Him that we live and move and have our being; as in fact some of the poets in repute among yourselves have said, 'For we are also His offspring.'


WONDERFUL.

Comparing the Scriptures about it not being will power being generated with the Scriptures that speak of Him writing these things on our heart with the Scriptures like Romans 1 that say that the invisible things are declared by the visible lets us know that when He says He'll write His laws upon our hearts, if the invisible things are known by the visible according to Romans 1 and many other passages, then He's writing His laws upon our muscles SO THAT WE CAN will and to do according to His good pleasure.

Now, since we've got two hearts in the flesh with the one in our chest and the one that's our entire muscle mass, which corresponds to the two realms of David's fallen tabernacle, or the married life, a holy place and a holy of holies, then the more our spirits via our mouths pump the faith of God into the rest of our bodies via the hearing and hearing by the Word of God coming out of us, then the development of our ability through our time in the Word grows and shrinks accordingly, in the way that our physical bodies gain development by usage, but it's all rooted in what's going on in the holy of holies or the physical heart that most people think of when you speak of the physical heart.

As we participate in the divine nature by confessing the Word over and over again, giving the fruit of our lips, and all of the other relevant passages regarding a believer's priestly ministry, then we add to our faith, according to 2Peter 1, or each of the various other organs of the recreated human spirit that are listed for us as the things added to faith in 2Peter 1 because they've become the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen, as meditation is becoming manifestation of the completed work of the Cross; we progress from our 'who' to our 'do,' as Joyce Meyer would say.

This addition to our faith proportionately adds to our ability to obey, but it all comes out of that time with getting the Word in the heart and in the mouth 'til the hands, feet, eyes, and everything else are heading in that way, according to Proverbs 4.  The Covenant does translate into actions and no longer being bound by futility through the regeneration of the spirit.

It's those spiritual muscles coming under development as the will of the head is applied through diligence to communion with one's head in His Word and obedience in the big things grows through doing the one thing that's needful, through all of the baby steps of what seems mundane, and then ultimately what's our resurrection becomes the resurrection power we're ministering to all of Creation around ourselves and we're even redeeming the time, or what's otherwise known in the Word as multiplying the bread with our thanksgiving.

Heavens are opened big time right now!  Been trying to say that again, among many other things, since '07. :Sparkletooth: :HeartThrob: :bgdance:

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 07, 2010, 05:09:01 AM

Quote from: peacemaker on February 06, 2010, 09:43:18 PM
When you know to do that which is good, but don't?
Ignorance doesn't kill you, but missing the mark makes you sweat a lot.

"Better is correction with an honest answer, than a smack in the face or a false kiss."

So really you do not think it is a big deal to willfully sin?

Many who lack knowledge have not been taught or are given incorrect information, thus, they have no understanding.
I would not call that being willful, rather they are ignorant.

"A child may ignorantly touch a burning stove, but they will learn from the experience."

However, if they knew better than it is foolishness; unwise.

peacemaker

The issue with Romans is about avoiding the personal condemnation that our wrong doings can separate us from God as much of religion will say it does.

There is nothing that excludes us from the judgment of our wrong doings.

The PROBLEM would start and is the huge flaw in religion is if I took it upon myself to declare to anyone what I think that judgment may be other than a warning that there is a reason God tells us to strive to run the race, fight the good fight, and other verses that admonishes us to not do wrong things.

No condemnation in Jesus Christ is a statement that the judgment God delivers onto us  in having to account for our lives will not exclude us from learning righteousness.   

Fear is a form of worship.  Whatever we fear the most is a lord to us.  If, in our minds, the biggest muscle in our neighborhood is not God, then we are subject to whatever else is.  Are we afraid of what will be done to us, or afraid we'll fail?  Do we fear being like Esau, who, "...wanting to enjoy the allotment blessing, he is rejected, for he did not find a place of repentance, even seeking it out with tears?"  Whatever the worst thing we fear is, we may have to go through that very thing until we discover God is greater.  We must "suffer the loss of all things" to find out what God can do with "a grain of mustard seed."  It was through death Jesus qualified to have the keys to death.  If we do not fear God more than anything else, then we haven't been under His chastening rod sufficiently to distinguish God from everything else.  And, since, "The end of the Lord is mercy," until we discover, "Mercy is His darling attribute," it is in fact His throne, we do not yet know the Lord as He should be known.  The extent to which we fear God is the extent to which we will serve Him.  The truth is there is nothing else you should be afraid of but God.  Nothing else can demand your service or bend you to its will if you fear God alone.

I have been suddenly cut off, and that without remedy several times.  When I sinned in His face, God kicked me so far from Him I never came back.  When you intentionally, willfully use God's gifts to do what He hates and He seizes hold of you, shakes you, and dips you in Himself as Total burning, bright flaming fire so there is nothing else you can think of for a while, only the burnings, and then He holds you up face to face with Him expecting to see His own image looking back at Him...

"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom," but, "Fear is not in love," and "God is love."  So, in its end, wisdom morphs into, "The love of Christ that transcends understanding."  "...perfect love is casting out fear, for fear has chastening. Now he who is fearing is not made perfect in love."  This is a walk.  Jesus is the Way.  We have to start somewhere.  We find ourselves in clay vessels.  There is a life force, a bios (Greek) that must come under discipline, until we become the servant God would have His offspring be.  The child cannot be given the keys to the car.  You cannot have access to the account until you are old enough.  While we wear suits of flesh and blood we have farther yet to go.  Though the embodiment of glory is at hand, to wear God as we wear our body is opened to us, and we've even had times where we had crossed over, until we come to the perfect man, a finished man, "...a mature man, to the measure of the stature of the complement of the Christ,"  until we  are so "...in love [that] we should be making all grow into Him, Who is the Head -- Christ -- out of Whom the entire body, being articulated together and united through every assimilation of the supply, in accord with the operation in measure of each one's part, is making for the growth of the body, for the upbuilding of itself in love" we must go on, pressing into all that God has for us.  It is the one thing that the apostle Paul said he was doing:  "...yet one thing -- forgetting, indeed, those things which are behind, yet stretching out to those in front -- toward the goal am I pursuing for the prize of God's calling above in Christ Jesus."  He also calls it, "...attaining to the resurrection that is out from among the dead," and, a transfigured body of glory:  "For our realm is inherent in the heavens, out of which we are awaiting a Saviour also, the Lord, Jesus Christ, Who will transfigure the body of our humiliation, to conform it to the body of His glory, in accord with the operation which enables Him even to subject all to Himself.  It is also said to us that, "Whoever, then, are mature, may be disposed to this."  We are still in this race to reach the finish line before death can take us out.  For those who do, they are no longer subject to death.

The wicked transgress because, "there is no fear of God before their eyes."  David said, "Before I was chastened I went astray."  After describing Jesus' agony to submit to His Father and not sin, even to sweating great drops of blood, the Scripture goes on to say:

Hebrews 12:4-11 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
4 Not as yet unto blood did you repulse, when contending against sin.
5 And you have been oblivious of the entreaty which is arguing with you as with sons: My son, do not disdain the discipline of the Lord, Nor yet faint when being exposed by Him.
6 For whom the Lord is loving He is disciplining, Yet He is scourging every son to whom He is assenting.
7 For discipline are you enduring. As to sons is God bringing it to you, for what son is there whom the father is not disciplining?
8 Now if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, consequently you are bastards and not sons.
9 Thereafter, indeed, we had the fathers of our flesh as discipliners, and we respected them. Yet shall we not much rather be subjected to the Father of spirits and be living.
10 For these, indeed, disciplined for a few days as it seemed best to them, yet that One for our expedience, for us to be partaking of His holiness.
11 Now all discipline, indeed, for the present is not seeming to be a thing of joy, but of sorrow, yet subsequently it is rendering the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those exercised through it.

Quote from: martincisneros on February 07, 2010, 06:21:20 AM

Quote from: Beloved Servant on February 07, 2010, 05:58:05 AM
WONDERFUL !
Acts 17: 28

Weymouth New Testament
For it is in closest union with Him that we live and move and have our being; as in fact some of the poets in repute among yourselves have said, 'For we are also His offspring.'


WONDERFUL.

Comparing the Scriptures about it not being will power being generated with the Scriptures that speak of Him writing these things on our heart with the Scriptures like Romans 1 that say that the invisible things are declared by the visible lets us know that when He says He'll write His laws upon our hearts, if the invisible things are known by the visible according to Romans 1 and many other passages, then He's writing His laws upon our muscles SO THAT WE CAN will and to do according to His good pleasure.

Now, since we've got two hearts in the flesh with the one in our chest and the one that's our entire muscle mass, which corresponds to the two realms of David's fallen tabernacle, or the married life, a holy place and a holy of holies, then the more our spirits via our mouths pump the faith of God into the rest of our bodies via the hearing and hearing by the Word of God coming out of us, then the development of our ability through our time in the Word grows and shrinks accordingly, in the way that our physical bodies gain development by usage, but it's all rooted in what's going on in the holy of holies or the physical heart that most people think of when you speak of the physical heart.

As we participate in the divine nature by confessing the Word over and over again, giving the fruit of our lips, and all of the other relevant passages regarding a believer's priestly ministry, then we add to our faith, according to 2Peter 1, or each of the various other organs of the recreated human spirit that are listed for us as the things added to faith in 2Peter 1 because they've become the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen, as meditation is becoming manifestation of the completed work of the Cross; we progress from our 'who' to our 'do,' as Joyce Meyer would say.

This addition to our faith proportionately adds to our ability to obey, but it all comes out of that time with getting the Word in the heart and in the mouth 'til the hands, feet, eyes, and everything else are heading in that way, according to Proverbs 4.  The Covenant does translate into actions and no longer being bound by futility through the regeneration of the spirit.

It's those spiritual muscles coming under development as the will of the head is applied through diligence to communion with one's head in His Word and obedience in the big things grows through doing the one thing that's needful, through all of the baby steps of what seems mundane, and then ultimately what's our resurrection becomes the resurrection power we're ministering to all of Creation around ourselves and we're even redeeming the time, or what's otherwise known in the Word as multiplying the bread with our thanksgiving.

Heavens are opened big time right now!  Been trying to say that again, among many other things, since '07. :Sparkletooth: :HeartThrob: :bgdance:

That's a good word, Martin. I enjoyed that.

me too.

 

  Hi all ,
  I really liked this thread , good questions and answers  Paul Hazelwood
as of late  :thumbsup:

   good stuff guys


   its the thing with God to show us  with this heavenly knowledge  that we will do   what is right in Gods sight
  we cannot possibly  ''guess '' what God want from us

  Like Martin says the full knowledge  and Light of Jesus Christ must come first   in our hearts
   to be even accountable  before God
 
  Paul you asked ,So really you do not think it is a big deal to willfully sin?

we are only measured by what we are given ....
  those whom have little are  not  judged at all by God

  remember how Jesus told those who judged the flesh and was harsh against it , but no flesh pleases God  so     he judged no man  according to the flesh
but if he judged his judgment was true ?   and Showed mercy to those whom were being judged  by the  unjust judges

there is some real depths to consider and discern in this part of understanding  God and His purpose

QuotePaul you asked ,So really you do not think it is a big deal to willfully sin?

we are only measured by what we are given ....
  those whom have little are  not  judged at all by God

  remember how Jesus told those who judged the flesh and was harsh against it , but no flesh pleases God  so     he judged no man  according to the flesh
but if he judged his judgment was true ?   and Showed mercy to those whom were being judged  by the  unjust judges

there is some real depths to consider and discern in this part of understanding  God and His purpose

So are you saying you do not know if it is a big deal, or are you saying it isn't a big deal?

Forgive me if I am wrong, but I think I asked a simple yes or no question.    If you are aware that you have done a willful act of disobedience to God  what does it matter?

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 07, 2010, 09:11:22 PM

QuotePaul you asked ,So really you do not think it is a big deal to willfully sin?

we are only measured by what we are given ....
  those whom have little are  not  judged at all by God

  remember how Jesus told those who judged the flesh and was harsh against it , but no flesh pleases God  so     he judged no man  according to the flesh
but if he judged his judgment was true ?   and Showed mercy to those whom were being judged  by the  unjust judges

there is some real depths to consider and discern in this part of understanding  God and His purpose

So are you saying you do not know if it is a big deal, or are you saying it isn't a big deal?

Forgive me if I am wrong, but I think I asked a simple yes or no question.    If you are aware that you have done a willful act of disobedience to God  what does it matter?

LOL sorry Paul ,  Let me be clear  yes for those whom it is given the full knowledge of the TRUTH   YES and NO  for those whom are not given the   
full knowledge    , so for  my answer it is ,yes and no . 

You  are referring to Hebrews 10  right Paul ?  Just how far can one  push Gods grace ?   and  who has this  full knowledge  and type of  faith given  ?  This would be   my question now ...  we know that the sin of Israel was idolatry/unfaithful   and the sin of all the rest of the  nations is blasphemy/ lies    :dontknow:



26 Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth,
  there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins.

27 There is only the terrible expectation of God's judgment and the raging fire that will consume his enemies.

  28 For anyone who refused to obey the law of Moses was put to death without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

29 Just think how much worse the punishment will be for those who have trampled on the Son of God, and have treated the blood of the covenant, which made us holy,

as if it were common and unholy, and have insulted and disdained the Holy Spirit who brings God's mercy to us.

30 For we know the one who said,

   "I will take revenge.
      I will pay them back''

   He also said,

   "The Lord will judge his own people."
31 It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

32 Think back on those early days when you first learned about Christ. Remember how you remained faithful even though it meant terrible suffering.

33 Sometimes you were exposed to public ridicule and were beaten, and sometimes you helped others who were suffering the same things.

  34 You suffered along with those who were thrown into jail, and when all you owned was taken from you, you accepted it with joy. You knew there were better things waiting for you that will last forever.

35 So do not throw away this confident trust in the Lord. Remember the great reward it brings you!

36 Patient endurance is what you need now, so that you will continue to do God's will. Then you will receive all that he has promised.


  a simple yes  to the wilful  and simple  no , to the unknowing , this may be why the Lord does not give it all to us right now . just a thought 

A rhetorical question implies that the answer is obvious. A kind of question that does not actually need to be answered. Rather, it is used for persuasive effect without the expectation or requirement of a lengthy response, putting the emphasis on a supposed truth by also stating the opposite.

"Have you ever been caught stealing?"

Yes or No, although it matters not, how you answer this question. :mshock:

peacemaker

Quote
A rhetorical question implies that the answer is obvious. A kind of question that does not actually need to be answered. Rather, it is used for persuasive effect without the expectation or requirement of a lengthy response, putting the emphasis on a supposed truth by also stating the opposite.

"Have you ever been caught stealing?"

Yes or No, although it matters not, how you answer this question.

peacemaker

Actually this isn't about that at all.  Given your example the point would be if you steal knowing full well you shouldn't have, what difference would it make?

I'll even use myself as an example.   I used to smoke and I will not make the case as "religious" people do that smoking is a sin.  However for me it would be, there are factors in my life that tell me it would be in complete disobedience of what God has given me to start smoking again. 

Regardless of what people think about Free Will or not having any, I know that I could go to the store get a pack of Cigs and start puffing away if I wanted to.  But I do fear the turmoil it would bring into my life if I did so. That temptation at times is there occasionally, but due to what I just said it is actually very easy to refrain from smoking and I am glad for it.
This is the kind of fear that I think is scriptural and healthy to teach as believers.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 08, 2010, 01:30:17 AM

Quote
A rhetorical question implies that the answer is obvious. A kind of question that does not actually need to be answered. Rather, it is used for persuasive effect without the expectation or requirement of a lengthy response, putting the emphasis on a supposed truth by also stating the opposite.

"Have you ever been caught stealing?"

Yes or No, although it matters not, how you answer this question.

Actually this isn't about that at all.  Given your example the point would be if you steal knowing full well you shouldn't have, what difference would it make?

I'll even use myself as an example.   I used to smoke and I will not make the case as "religious" people do that smoking is a sin.  However for me it would be, there are factors in my life that tell me it would be in complete disobedience of what God has given me to start smoking again. 

Regardless of what people think about Free Will or not having any, I know that I could go to the store get a pack of Cigs and start puffing away if I wanted to.  But I do fear the turmoil it would bring into my life if I did so. That temptation at times is there occasionally, but due to what I just said it is actually very easy to refrain from smoking and I am glad for it.

This is the kind of fear that I think is scriptural and healthy to teach as believers.

The one who smokes is not to regard with contempt the non-smoker, and the one who does not smoke is not to judge the one who smokes, for God has accepted him. We are neither the worse if we smoke, nor the better if we do not, but each must be fully convinced in his own mind. Although I would refrain from smoking, not desiring that you stumble. Thus, I do not see fear as the element, rather, it is that of respect. I do not abstain from stealing because of fear, however, I do understand your point which makes a difference to you, and your health.

"The right, power, or privilege of making a choice requires judgment and we live with the consequences of our decisions; right or wrong."

peacemaker

There's also the consideration of not destroying the temple.  IMO, that's not a religious consideration, but a scriptural one.

I personally struggle daily with that one with regard to food - types and how much.

I understand the "eat or not eat" concept per Paul to have specifically been about eating food in the temple that had been sacrificed to idols - then by extension, the lesson being regarding things that may harm the conscience and thus be sin - rather than partaking of things known to be harmful to the body and thus destroying the temple [smoking, over-eating, substance abuse, etc].

As far as the fear part - "If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple you are."

Anyone have a good interpretation/insight into this verse, i.e., "God destroying him"?  That sounds pretty ominous to me.  Simply reaping what we sow, or a more active punishment than that?

Quote from: jabcat on February 08, 2010, 04:20:55 AM
There's also the consideration of not destroying the temple.  IMO, that's not a religious consideration, but a scriptural one.

I personally struggle daily with that one with regard to food - types and how much.

I understand the "eat or not eat" concept per Paul to have specifically been about eating food in the temple that had been sacrificed to idols - then by extension, the lesson being regarding things that may harm the conscience and thus be sin - rather than partaking of things known to be harmful to the body and thus destroying the temple [smoking, over-eating, substance abuse, etc].

As far as the fear part - "If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple you are."

Anyone have a good interpretation/insight into this verse, i.e., "God destroying him"?  That sounds pretty ominous to me.  Simply reaping what we sow, or a more active punishment than that?

Matthew 15:1-20 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
1 Then, coming to Jesus from Jerusalem are Pharisees and scribes, saying,
2 "Wherefore are your disciples transgressing the tradition of the elders? For they are not washing their hands whenever they may be eating bread."
3 Now He, answering, said to them, "Wherefore are you also transgressing the precept of God because of your tradition?
4 For God said, 'Honor father and mother,' and, 'He who is saying aught that is evil of father or mother, let him decease in death.'
5 Yet you are saying that 'Whoever may be saying to father or mother, "An approach present is whatsoever you may be benefited by me,"
6 by no means shall he be honoring his father.' And you invalidate the word of God because of your tradition.
7 Hypocrites! Ideally Isaiah prophesies concerning you, saying,
8 This people with their lips is honoring Me, Yet their heart is away at a distance from Me.
9 Yet in vain are they revering Me, Teaching for teachings the directions of men."
10 And, calling the throng to Him, He said to them, "Hear and understand!
11 Not that which is entering into the mouth is contaminating a man, but that which is going out of the mouth, this is contaminating a man."
12 Then, approaching, the disciples said to Him, "Are you aware that the Pharisees, at hearing the word, are snared?"
13 Now He, answering, said, "Every plant which is not planted by My heavenly Father shall be uprooted.
14 Leave them! Blind guides are they of the blind! Now if the blind should be guiding the blind, both shall be falling into a pit."
15 Now, answering, Peter said to Him, "Decipher for us the parable."
16 Yet He said, "Are you also unintelligent at this point?
17 Not as yet are you apprehending that everything that is going into the mouth is becoming the contents of the bowels, and is being evacuated into the latrine?
18 Now those things going out of the mouth, out of the heart are coming, and those things are contaminating a man.
19 For out of the heart are coming wicked reasonings, murders, adulteries, prostitutions, thefts, false testimonies, calumnies.
20 These are those which are contaminating a man. Now to be eating with unwashed hands is not contaminating a man."

Quote from: peacemaker on February 08, 2010, 03:22:20 AM
The one who smokes is not to regard with contempt the non-smoker, and the one who does not smoke is not to judge the one who smokes, for God has accepted him. We are neither the worse if we smoke, nor the better if we do not, but each must be fully convinced in his own mind. Although I would refrain from smoking, not desiring that you stumble. Thus, I do not see fear as the element, rather, it is that of respect. I do not abstain from stealing because of fear, however, I do understand your point which makes a difference to you, and your health.

"The right, power, or privilege of making a choice requires judgment and we live with the consequences of our decisions; right or wrong."

peacemaker

What I found is the Eclessia is in such disarray that the arguement about not offending others' conscience is little more than an abstraction twice removed.  We little discern the many-membered body and seldom are in "fellowship" (koinia) walking together, every member participating as the body of Christ.  It has been replaced with an unbiblical elite priesthood who function for us.  As a result we mostly live private "Adamic" lives that hardly impinge on one-another enough to bless or offend.

Additionally, I've found by experience (as a reluctant EX-smoker) that those who are offended tend to stay that way no matter what you do or do not do.

Still, that is a good point well expressed peacemaker!

The issue of smoking was a personal example,  which is why I pointed out that I was not making the case about smoking specifically in comparison to "others", so I will not argue about it one way or the other.

It was building upon what rosered said about what is given to us.   However with that said I know my life is better for not smoking but that does not make me more righteous, but it doesn't change that I live a healthier life no matter what anyone wants to try to say about it.  

If someone dies of lung cancer the argument is often to redirect the facts and point out someone who smoked for 50 years and didn't die of lung cancer or emphysema.

My aunt suffered from severe allergy attacks as long as I can remember, she did not smoke, my uncle did and smoked in the house, he died of emphysema, and my aunt is living now in a smoke free house has not had an allergy attack since shortly after that.  Oh praise the Lord someone might say (by the same believing people who talked about how baaaad old Uncle was for smoking), well, this is an example of how poor religion actually is.

I'm leading up to something most may not expect, my aunt said she would gladly have her allergy attacks back if my uncle was still alive to be with her.

I digressed a little from the topic to point out that this is not about judging specific acts or habits and painting a picture of anyone who does them or doesn't do them.  My aunt learned the hard way that there are more important things than walking around the earth all pious about what we do not do that others do do.  It is about personal reflection of what we do with what God gives us, if people feel guilty or do not like a message of our accountability to God take it up with the man who wrote the warnings.


Some can and have in so many words have minimized my uncles death and my Aunts love for her husband by pointing out that now my aunt is not suffering and how wonderful it is.  

Now, people can say all they want,  these people are believers,  and they do not fear how those words are careless and pious and religious poop and look at the result.

Nothing personal, but the Scriptures speak more about fear not and that of having reverence.

"For God has not given us a Spirit of fear, but that of power, love, and self control."

I have never held my daughters' captive through the fear of punishment for doing wrong, rather it was by the power of love and discipline in the form of guidance, which developed a reverence for their father. Thus, it was their desire to be pleasing, loving, as they were loved.

"Giving and receiving both require open hands."

However, I do agree that what the worldly church teaches is horrifying, beyond that of fear itself. And that jumping out of a perfectly good airplane can be a frightening experience for many, especially the first step. But there is a certain reverence for the parachute, whether one is timid, or not.

peacemaker

None taken, not every instance of a translated word fear carries the definition of awe or respect, one has to look to see, you dont have to take my word for it.

I never had to teach my kids to fear me in the first place, I do not need them to love me or respect me to teach them about running out into thr street and getting maimed or killed by traffic.

James, do you think Jesus was saying that if I'm a glutton, poking a dozen Twinkies, a gallon of ice cream, and a whole chocolate pie in my face night after night, eating myself up to 500 pounds - having diabetes, heart disease, and killing myself 20 years early, that that's not defiling myself (destroying the temple)?  I somehow doubt that's what you believe, but the scriptures you posted (in isolation from full context) seem to indicate that as your response - so would you please clarify how you think all that fits together in context?  Wasn't Jesus addressing one aspect, that of the condition of the heart?  Yet there is also clear scriptures about not doing things that are harmful to the body/temple - and many of those are taken in by the mouth.....thoughts?

Also, I asked if anyone had any insight to "God will destroy" that man that destroys the temple...that's a troublesome verse for me....anyone have anything helpful with that?

Then we have "there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus"....... :scratchhead:

Thanks, James.

Quote from: jabcat on February 08, 2010, 07:20:55 PM
Also, I asked if anyone had any insight to "God will destroy" that man that destroys the temple...that's a troublesome verse for me....anyone have anything helpful with that?

Then we have "there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus"....... :scratchhead:

Thanks, James.

That is a good point James, from the life I have lived I certainly should eat better, while my physical health has not deteriorated I have bad teeth and am paying the price.

How I see things is that the idea of the consequenses of willfully doing things we know we shouldn't is apart from condemnation.


For instance, I was raised in the religious environment that would imply that if I drink alcoholic beverages for any reason I am in a position to have my faith and salvation questioned.

Again, I do not want to detract from the point by talking about alcoholic drinks I am pointing
out that for me personally that while it is easy for me not to drink for the same reasonings as smoking, if I DID start back up, God would destroy me in the sense that he is not going to protect me from the consequenses that I know will result for me if I started again.

This is separate from being condemned to hell or to some misery that Jesus would be unable to deliver me from.  But as much as I agree with  the verses of love and peace and no fear, we cannot ignore the ones that speak of the opposite.

What we can learn is why I chose the topic I did, I believe there can be a healthy fear as opposed to not doing something based upon a guilt ridden horror that men will apply to one another to try to get them to behave to their liking.


Hitler may indeed by saved as many in UR agree, but I know for a fact, I do not want to be him or any concentration prison gaurd, or some ethnic cleanser in rwanda when it comes to having to account for ones life.   I do not have a horror based outloook to my own life, but I know I will account for all I do one day.   Others can see and choose how they want to live, as for me I try to be better everyday for various reason, one is that I want to learn how to love like Jesus, knowing that I do not, I try to be better each day in order to make my day of accounting better if at all possible. 

That is not living "in" horror, it is living in the reality of scripture. 

Good post Paul, makes a lot of sense to me.  Thanks.

willieH: Hi James...  :cloud9:

Quote from: jabcat on February 08, 2010, 04:20:55 AM
There's also the consideration of not destroying the temple.  IMO, that's not a religious consideration, but a scriptural one.

I personally struggle daily with that one with regard to food - types and how much.

I understand the "eat or not eat" concept per Paul to have specifically been about eating food in the temple that had been sacrificed to idols - then by extension, the lesson being regarding things that may harm the conscience and thus be sin - rather than partaking of things known to be harmful to the body and thus destroying the temple [smoking, over-eating, substance abuse, etc].

As far as the fear part - "If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple you are."

Anyone have a good interpretation/insight into this verse, i.e., "God destroying him"?  That sounds pretty ominous to me.  Simply reaping what we sow, or a more active punishment than that?

Every "man" shall find DESTRUCTION at the hand of God... for...

The "man" that defiles the temple is the CARNAL man in each of us... for it is NOT that which enters the man (i.e. smoking, drinking, eating, etc), it is what COMES OUT of the man that defiles the man (thoughts, words and actions which are contrary to the WORD of TRUTH)... Matt 15:11 -- Mark 7:20

The products of DISOBEDIENCE which are found in the CARNALITY of the unconverted MIND, is the object of DIVINE destruction... not the MAN himself -- 1 Cor 3:15

God is about DESTROYING that which is contrary to His WORD and His Command, ...and that is the BONDAGE from which He delivers His Children...

When will His CHILDREN get into their spirits, that He LOVES His Children?  And preach THAT LOVE to the WORLD?  Instead of religiously inventing various HORRORS to preach to them?   :sigh:

The "preachers" (I use the term loosely) of the WORD are WAY more generally immersed in promoting via their communications,  HORROR and PUNISHMENT, than in promoting LOVE, PEACE and FORGIVENESS!

The "message" (I use the term loosely) that is most often brought to the WORLD that God so LOVES, is a --- "if you do this (of YOUR doing), God will do that TO YOU"... thereby FALSELY teaching to the WORLD, that it is "YOU" which dictates (by your "doings") to GOD and thereby causing HIM to "react" to YOU, ...rather than preaching the TRUTH which notes that ...HE is the one IN CONTROL, of ALL THINGS, as Scripture notes Him to be -- Eph 1:11

His LOVE -- 1 Cor 13 -- is filled with PEACE and GRACE, which are ALL GREATER than ANY "SIN" -- Rom 5:20 -- or ANY "FEAR" -- 1 John 4:18 

And that it is "SIN and (its running partner), FEAR", are that which LOVE is actively CASTING OUT -- NOW -- John 12:31  -- Isaiah 26:9

1 John 3:
11 For this is the message which you hear from the beginning!

Bless you willieH.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 08, 2010, 07:50:21 PMHitler may indeed by saved as many in UR agree, but I know for a fact, I do not want to be him or any concentration prison gaurd, or some ethnic cleanser in rwanda when it comes to having to account for ones life.   I do not have a horror based outloook to my own life, but I know I will account for all I do one day.   Others can see and choose how they want to live, as for me I try to be better everyday for various reason, one is that I want to learn how to love like Jesus, knowing that I do not, I try to be better each day in order to make my day of accounting better if at all possible. 

That is not living "in" horror, it is living in the reality of scripture. 

The above, is a matter of opinion... upon which no Scriptural basis has been presented to found it...  :dontknow:

There is no "day of accounting"... we are IN the DAY of YHVH in which ALL GENERATIONS -- appear! -- Gen 2:4

ALL the generations and ALL they do, appear in the DAY of YHVH, which is the "when" in which account is given, ...as it occurs...

The "perception" that one gives "account" of the summary of ones life, upon its completion, is a view commonly held by many,  ...instead of "NOW" --- GIVING account DURING said life... Which is Scriptural -- John 12:31 

God does NOT place us here, and then REACT to what "we do" at the conclusion of our lives...  He has DECLARED (via His Foreknowledge of them) ALL THINGS... and ALL THINGS shall find themselves manifesting according to that DECLARATION -- Isaiah 46:10-11 -- Rom 4:17

For ALL THINGS are MADE by the WORD -- John 1:3 -- (which is utilized to "DECLARE"), to include ALL content/manifestations proceeding from THAT which is "MADE" which are WORKED by the WORD -- Eph 1:11

He is about placing us here as parts of HIS SPECIFIC PURPOSE... and in that, do we "give account" as we REAP what we SOW...  which is HIM WORKING ALL (not just some) THINGS --- which is SCRIPTURAL -- Eph 1:11

If one has been ordained to walk in RIGHTEOUSNESS, he/she shall do so as is noted by Scripture -- Eph 2:10

If GOD has ordained one to WALK in RIGHTEOUSNESS, then that one, shall NOT do otherwise.  :dontknow:

Nothing to FEARFULLY dread as we make the mistakes we make... for LOVE does the OPPOSITE of IMPOSING FEAR -- 1 John 4:18 --  Rather, LOVE shall reveal to those to whom LOVE shall reveal, the truth that NOW is the "DAY"

The "DAY" and "TIME" that is accepted, and in which SALVATION occurs -- 2 Cor 6:2 -- and is the "DAY" in which SIN is NOT IMPUTED -- 2 Cor 5:19 -- and in which GRACE does MUCH MORE ABOUND -- Rom 5:20 --and in which is found  FORGIVENESS, ...for we KNOW NOT what we -- DO! -- Luke 23:24

Those who have come to KNOW LOVE, ...thereby KNOW that LOVE is about a positive agenda that seeks to SAVE, not to destroy... that seeks to COMFORT, not to instill FEAR... that seeks to GAIN our RESPECT by LOVE, not by forcing it down our throats with HORRIBLE PUNISHMENTS... :mnah:

MEN create Horror and FEAR, and proclaim it to be an imposing and FEARFUL future coming from GOD... :rolleye:  Instead of preaching of WHO and WHAT He is... LOVE -- 1 John 4:8 -- and how He ETERNALLY and LOVINGLY feels about the WORLD -- John 3:16-17 -- which He shall NOT CONDEMN, for the Savior was sent NOT to condemn...

All along, FEAR is the creation of man's own inherent carnal selfishness which thinks himself able to obtain a better position through his OWN EFFORTS...  :faint:

And in conclusion, said VEIL which keeps man from seeing that NOTHING is "up to him"... is to be removed and it shall become KNOWN by him, that the VEIL was part of the PURPOSE of YHVH who works ALL THINGS...

This shall be done to the ETERNAL JOY of those yet to KNOW the PURPOSED workings of LOVE, which are presently inhibited by their ORDAINED, yet "self imposed" creation of FEAR which in turn, has restricted their vision of the wonder of LOVE... which GOD has purposed through His Children, ...for ALL to KNOW "Good and Evil"...

The REVELATION of this KNOWLEDGE shall FOREVER serve to magnify the GLORY of YHVH and His Son JESUS CHRIST... for it is about ---> :bowing: YHVH God, ...NOT about ...us...

Nehemiah 13 (Amplified Bible)

31 And I provided for the wood offering at appointed times, and for the firstfruits. O my God, [earnestly] remember me for good and imprint me [on Your heart]!

Quote from: reFORMer on February 07, 2010, 08:20:23 AM
Fear is a form of worship.  Whatever we fear the most is a lord to us.  If, in our minds, the biggest muscle in our neighborhood is not God, then we are subject to whatever else is.  Are we afraid of what will be done to us, or afraid we'll fail?  Do we fear being like Esau, who, "...wanting to enjoy the allotment blessing, he is rejected, for he did not find a place of repentance, even seeking it out with tears?"  Whatever the worst thing we fear is, we may have to go through that very thing until we discover God is greater.  We must "suffer the loss of all things" to find out what God can do with "a grain of mustard seed."  It was through death Jesus qualified to have the keys to death.  If we do not fear God more than anything else, then we haven't been under His chastening rod sufficiently to distinguish God from everything else.  And, since, "The end of the Lord is mercy," until we discover, "Mercy is His darling attribute," it is in fact His throne, we do not yet know the Lord as He should be known.  The extent to which we fear God is the extent to which we will serve Him.  The truth is there is nothing else you should be afraid of but God.  Nothing else can demand your service or bend you to its will if you fear God alone.

I have been suddenly cut off, and that without remedy several times.  When I sinned in His face, God kicked me so far from Him I never came back.  When you intentionally, willfully use God's gifts to do what He hates and He seizes hold of you, shakes you, and dips you in Himself as Total burning, bright flaming fire so there is nothing else you can think of for a while, only the burnings, and then He holds you up face to face with Him expecting to see His own image looking back at Him...

"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom," but, "Fear is not in love," and "God is love."  So, in its end, wisdom morphs into, "The love of Christ that transcends understanding."  "...perfect love is casting out fear, for fear has chastening. Now he who is fearing is not made perfect in love."  This is a walk.  Jesus is the Way.  We have to start somewhere.  We find ourselves in clay vessels.  There is a life force, a bios (Greek) that must come under discipline, until we become the servant God would have His offspring be.  The child cannot be given the keys to the car.  You cannot have access to the account until you are old enough.  While we wear suits of flesh and blood we have farther yet to go.  Though the embodiment of glory is at hand, to wear God as we wear our body is opened to us, and we've even had times where we had crossed over, until we come to the perfect man, a finished man, "...a mature man, to the measure of the stature of the complement of the Christ,"  until we  are so "...in love [that] we should be making all grow into Him, Who is the Head -- Christ -- out of Whom the entire body, being articulated together and united through every assimilation of the supply, in accord with the operation in measure of each one's part, is making for the growth of the body, for the upbuilding of itself in love" we must go on, pressing into all that God has for us.  It is the one thing that the apostle Paul said he was doing:  "...yet one thing -- forgetting, indeed, those things which are behind, yet stretching out to those in front -- toward the goal am I pursuing for the prize of God's calling above in Christ Jesus."  He also calls it, "...attaining to the resurrection that is out from among the dead," and, a transfigured body of glory:  "For our realm is inherent in the heavens, out of which we are awaiting a Saviour also, the Lord, Jesus Christ, Who will transfigure the body of our humiliation, to conform it to the body of His glory, in accord with the operation which enables Him even to subject all to Himself.  It is also said to us that, "Whoever, then, are mature, may be disposed to this."  We are still in this race to reach the finish line before death can take us out.  For those who do, they are no longer subject to death.

The wicked transgress because, "there is no fear of God before their eyes."  David said, "Before I was chastened I went astray."  After describing Jesus' agony to submit to His Father and not sin, even to sweating great drops of blood, the Scripture goes on to say:

Hebrews 12:4-11 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
4 Not as yet unto blood did you repulse, when contending against sin.
5 And you have been oblivious of the entreaty which is arguing with you as with sons: My son, do not disdain the discipline of the Lord, Nor yet faint when being exposed by Him.
6 For whom the Lord is loving He is disciplining, Yet He is scourging every son to whom He is assenting.
7 For discipline are you enduring. As to sons is God bringing it to you, for what son is there whom the father is not disciplining?
8 Now if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, consequently you are bastards and not sons.
9 Thereafter, indeed, we had the fathers of our flesh as discipliners, and we respected them. Yet shall we not much rather be subjected to the Father of spirits and be living.
10 For these, indeed, disciplined for a few days as it seemed best to them, yet that One for our expedience, for us to be partaking of His holiness.
11 Now all discipline, indeed, for the present is not seeming to be a thing of joy, but of sorrow, yet subsequently it is rendering the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those exercised through it.

Thank you reFORMer, I love reading your posts, they are filled with the wisdom of God.  :cloud9:

Amen re FORMer,
That's what the Old Testament is all about.
Idol worship.
and
The New Testament is all about the opposite of hate, which is love.
His love, our reciprocal love for Him, the consummation of all things in His Christ, Jesus, The Word, without Whom, we simply would not exist!

For those that already have some experience with the Lord perhaps the commonest response to being confronted with the message that Scripture really teaches the salvation of all is to ask why not just go out and sin all we want if we'll all go to heaven anyway.  The detailed answers to that are here and there elsewhere on tentmaker.  The reason for mentioning it here is that as you answer them they commonly see that it was not a well thought out response.  What they don't see is that it is an ideal revelation of their hearts.  That response is the product logically and emotionally of what and how they have been taught to believe.

They walk in their own approval, often not realizing it is the passage of time that eases their consciences rather than faith in the finished work of Christ.  They believe they'll achieve some future reward because of adhering to their own version of a standard they actually don't live up to anyway.  If they really want to sin what does that say of their heart, whether they're sufficiently "born again" or not?  They're actually admitting it's fear of something future that not only keeps them in line, but how they view everybody else's virtue.  We're not all brutish fools.  "A reproof entereth more into a wise man than an hundred stripes into a fool." (Pv 17:10, AV)  It is degrading to the majesty of God Who is Love, as if He has only brought forth those who must be clubbed into submission, or that it is the extent of His limited repertoire of disciplining techniques.  Instead of a better place in death, it's having Christ fully formed in them and coming to bear the image of God that is His purpose.  When this part of the puzzle is corrected there is improvement.  More value is placed on persons, character and intimacy with God rather than places and things.  Really, that it is a puzzle is because the popular doctrine and social pressure keeps them from admitting the nature of the One Who has begun a revelation of Himself in them.  They have not waited attentive to Him, meditating on and being conformed in their understanding to His manifestation granted to them.

Fear of a threatening big bully god poisons sours their own personalities, barely permitting their hearts to love the world for whom Christ died.  It keeps them judging others by their abbreviated law, condemning many great people who, instead of seen as those who God in the ages to come will perfect and save, are somehow deserving ceaseless torture forever.  Moloch marks them with scars of fear and anger.  They go about inflicting fear and bondage, using threats and intimidation that provokes anger, and creating divisions and rejections from which they refuse to repent.  They become like their god.

Quote from: reFORMer on February 09, 2010, 06:09:45 AM

It keeps them judging others by their abbreviated law, condemning many great people who, instead of seen as those who God in the ages to come will perfect and save, are somehow deserving ceaseless torture forever.  Moloch marks them with scars of fear and anger.  They go about inflicting fear and bondage, using threats and intimidation that provokes anger, and creating divisions and rejections from which they refuse to repent.  They become like their god.

Well,  the point of this thread is to deal with this perspective, what of it if they do that? 

Quote from: willieH on February 09, 2010, 01:41:07 AM

There is no "day of accounting"... we are IN the DAY of YHVH in which ALL GENERATIONS -- appear! -- Gen 2:4

Semantics

Ro 14:12 Consequently, then, each of us shall be giving account concerning himself to God.

This includes you.

Quote from: willieH on February 09, 2010, 01:41:07 AM
Nothing to FEARFULLY dread as we make the mistakes we make... for LOVE does the OPPOSITE of IMPOSING FEAR -- 1 John 4:18 --  Rather, LOVE shall reveal to those to whom LOVE shall reveal, the truth that NOW is the "DAY"
]willieH[/glow]  :HeartThrob:[/b][/i][/move]

The word fear by definition is a part of scripture and not every instance of our instruction includes the implication of awe and respect, this is a fact no matter how many verses you post.

Ro 14:13 By no means, then, should we still be judging one another, but rather decide this, not *to place a stumbling block for a *brother, or a snare.

Why should the above verse even carry any concern?  No fear?  Then I do not really have to care about causing my brother to stumble.   

And if someone uses the typical argument that talks about my heart for saying such things it still comes back to the same thing,  I do not need to fear what my heart is like? 

I think the greater problem is separating the reality of a righteous type of fear and horror.   

Some don't want to talk about fear of any kind, yet the whole idea is then a contradiction to the concept.  If I am not to fear anything, then I do not have to fear trying to persuade men with horrors either.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 09, 2010, 04:42:52 PM

Quote from: willieH on February 09, 2010, 01:41:07 AM

There is no "day of accounting"... we are IN the DAY of YHVH in which ALL GENERATIONS -- appear! -- Gen 2:4

Semantics

Ro 14:12 Consequently, then, each of us shall be giving account concerning himself to God.

This includes you.

semantics isnt the point, the TRUTH is the point...

I did not say we would not GIVE account, and this verse does not substanciate the claim there is a "DAY of ACCOUNT"...

That account is GIVEN NOW... and that includes YOU...  :winkgrin:

Quote from: willieH on February 09, 2010, 09:56:07 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 09, 2010, 04:42:52 PM

Quote from: willieH on February 09, 2010, 01:41:07 AM

There is no "day of accounting"... we are IN the DAY of YHVH in which ALL GENERATIONS -- appear! -- Gen 2:4

Semantics

Ro 14:12 Consequently, then, each of us shall be giving account concerning himself to God.

This includes you.

semantics isnt the point, the TRUTH is the point...

I did not say we would not GIVE account, and this verse does not substanciate the claim there is a "DAY of ACCOUNT"...

That account is GIVEN NOW... and that includes YOU...  :winkgrin:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

The concept is scriptural,  as long as you know that we account for our lives, then I see nothing more that I find disagreement in.

Ac 17:31 forasmuch as He assigns a day in which He is |about to be judging the |inhabited~ earth in righteousness inby the Man Whom He specifies, tendering faith to all, _raising Him outfrom among the dead--"

Quote from: willieH on February 09, 2010, 01:41:07 AM
Nothing to FEARFULLY dread as we make the mistakes we make... for LOVE does the OPPOSITE of IMPOSING FEAR -- 1 John 4:18 --  Rather, LOVE shall reveal to those to whom LOVE shall reveal, the truth that NOW is the "DAY"

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 09, 2010, 05:33:25 PMThe word fear by definition is a part of scripture and not every instance of our instruction includes the implication of awe and respect, this is a fact no matter how many verses you post.

How weak is an arguement that notes the proposal of NO Scripture, as opposed to MANY Scriptures, is therefore the "defining" observation...  :laughing7:

:Yeahright:  According to Scripture the WORD (of TRUTH) is ESTABLISHED in the mouth of 2 or MORE witnesses -- 2 Cor 13:1 -- 1 Tim 5:19

Scripture SPECIFICALLY notes:  LOVE CASTS OUT FEAR... so it is NOT about requiring FEAR to be "OBTAINED" for crying out loud... 1 John 4:18 -- LOVE is about RIDDING oneself OF FEAR!

FEAR and LOVE are antithetic to one another... so WHY would LOVE [God] propose we obtain that which is OPPOSITE and CONTRARY to Himself?   :dontknow:

That is like saying NO ONE is SAFE until EVERYONE has A GUN! :omg:

"FEAR" being taught in PLACE of the GOSPEL of PEACE (which opposes FEAR), is the carnal man clinging to life, afraid to DIE... and as Scripture notes... is yet to be PERFECTED in LOVE -- 1 John 4:18

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 09, 2010, 05:33:25 PM Ro 14:13 By no means, then, should we still be judging one another, but rather decide this, not *to place a stumbling block for a *brother, or a snare.

Why should the above verse even carry any concern?  No fear?  Then I do not really have to care about causing my brother to stumble.

Semantics... PEACE is a CALMING state... FEAR is an UNCALMING state...  If one is FEARING as "way of life"... then one is NOT at PEACE... 

These are contrary to one another.  JESUS spoke unto the FEAR and TURMOIL which came upon the Apostles via the STORM -- Luke 8:24 -- Matt 25-26 - Mark 4:38-39

Then He noted ---> PEACE!  Be STILL! -- Matt 8:25-26 -- Mark 4:38-39 -- Luke 8:24-25 --  Immediately QUESTIONING their FAITH, because of the FEAR they exhibited!!! 

You SUBSTITUTE the word "CONCERN" in the stead of FEAR in your quote above, in a further attempt to found FEAR, instead of proposing a Scriptural arguement... as if FEAR is a necessary element within the concept of CONCERN.

I can and DO have concern for others WITHOUT FEAR, for LOVE is WITHOUT FEAR...

In any case, Rom 14:13  does not propose FEAR at all... I think you miss the entire point.  And in that, endeavor to create a foundation for a false premise.

To be "concerned" has nothing to do with being AFRAID... I am concerned for the welfare of my children, friends, and neighbors, but FEAR does not enter into it... On the CONTRARY... TRUSTING in LOVE [God] to provide for them is enlisted by me as I go about my "CONCERN"...

It is out of LOVE that I wish for and DO all I can that they remain safe, and that their needs be met, ...NOT... because I sit and FEAR by WORRYING about them, dreading that something might bring harm to them. :rolleye:

We are not to be AFRAID or FEARFUL that we might cause our brother to stumble, we are counseled by this Scripture that it is our SPIRITUAL duty to be cognizant of making such a mistake. 

Again on the CONTRARY... the WORD counsels us to FEAR NOT... rather to TRUST in the Almighty's WILL which proceeds from LOVE -- as CHRIST exemplified with the STORM...

In doing the WORK of the LORD we must be WITHOUT FEAR...

1 Cor 16:10 -- now if Timotheus come, see that he may be with you WITHOUT FEAR -- for he WORKETH the WORK OF THE LORD, as I also do...

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 09, 2010, 05:33:25 PMAnd if someone uses the typical argument that talks about my heart for saying such things it still comes back to the same thing,  I do not need to fear what my heart is like? 

I think the greater problem is separating the reality of a righteous type of fear and horror.

There is no such thing as a "righteous type of fear", please note where it is described and/or outlined in the WORD... and if it is not noted or outlined in the WORD, then it is your creation.

FEAR as used in Scripture is to RESPECT or "be in AWE" of GOD... NOT to be AFRAID of Him...  

He LOVES us... How many of those whom you LOVE and whom LOVE YOU, are you FEARFUL of?  :mshock: -- I thought so...  :laughing7:

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 09, 2010, 05:33:25 PMSome don't want to talk about fear of any kind, yet the whole idea is then a contradiction to the concept.  If I am not to fear anything, then I do not have to fear trying to persuade men with horrors either.

To propose HORROR or FEAR within the message of the GOSPEL, ...is to negate the proposition of PEACE, for which the GOSPEL is named -- Eph 6:15 -- Rom 10:15

:Peace: ...NOT FEAR...

The fear of the Lord is the BEGINNING of wisdom. My daughter is a year and a half. She does not yet understand that she cannot run out into the road without being in danger of being hit by a car. But she does understand that Mommy and Daddy will get VERY upset if she goes near the road without holding one of our hands. When she gets older she will realize why and she will be very grateful, i'm sure, that we instilled that fear into her.

Knowing that God will hold me accountable and will punish me if need be makes me feel secure and safe. (For example, He punished Ananias and Sapphira, David and Bathsheba, and many more.) I am grateful for God's punishments because they are always for my benefit, to make me into His image of goodness and righteousness. And they are always just.

Quote from: lomarah on February 10, 2010, 01:41:33 AM
The fear of the Lord is the BEGINNING of wisdom. My daughter is a year and a half. She does not yet understand that she cannot run out into the road without being in danger of being hit by a car. But she does understand that Mommy and Daddy will get VERY upset if she goes near the road without holding one of our hands. When she gets older she will realize why and she will be very grateful, i'm sure, that we instilled that fear into her.

Knowing that God will hold me accountable and will punish me if need be makes me feel secure and safe. (For example, He punished Ananias and Sapphira, David and Bathsheba, and many more.) I am grateful for God's punishments because they are always for my benefit, to make me into His image of goodness and righteousness. And they are always just.

:thumbsup:

Quote from: willieH on February 09, 2010, 11:11:32 PM
To propose HORROR or FEAR within the message of the GOSPEL, ...is to negate the proposition of PEACE, for which the GOSPEL is named -- Eph 6:15 -- Rom 10:15

The truth is that fear has a scriptural basis and we must not ignore it, we must see what it means for us.


1Pt 3:15 yet hallow the Lord Christ in your hearts, ever ready with a defense for everyone who is demanding from you an account concerning the expectation in you, but with meekness and fear

Fear in this instance does not carry the definition of awe or reverence .    It is a righteous fear because it is a word from God in the same manner that Gods Wrath is also righteous.

"Many people are afraid of the word wrath.  I'm not afraid to use it because it is not a mean or vindictive word!  What is wrath?  It has always been taught by the carnal church systems in a negative way and it should not be.  What is the biblical meaning of wrath?  The Greek word is orge meaning "to reach out with passionate desire and take hold of."  It is quite clear that the orge of the Lamb has nothing to do with uncontrolled anger or vindictive vengeance!  The very simplest definition of the Greek word orge is "passion."  The passion of the Lamb!  What a word that is!  That rendering certainly reconciles the apparent contradiction inherent in the King James Bible: "The wrath of the Lamb."  Who has ever seen a wrathful lamb?  Show me one and I might consider the remote possibility of Christ coming in wrath upon mankind, in the way it is taught in the church systems of man.  But there are no wrathful lambs!"
                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                      — J Preston Eby
                                                                                                                                                          KingdomBibleStudies.org
                                                                                                                                                          FROM THE CANDLESTICK TO THE THRONE, part  95

 

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 10, 2010, 02:28:55 AM

Quote from: willieH on February 09, 2010, 11:11:32 PM
To propose HORROR or FEAR within the message of the GOSPEL, ...is to negate the proposition of PEACE, for which the GOSPEL is named -- Eph 6:15 -- Rom 10:15

The truth is that fear has a scriptural basis and we must not ignore it, we must see what it means for us.


1Pt 3:15 yet hallow the Lord Christ in your hearts, ever ready with a defense for everyone who is demanding from you an account concerning the expectation in you, but with meekness and fear

Fear  in this instance does not carry the definition of awe or reverence .

Oh really? On the contrary, ...it depends upon who is translating:

1 Peter 3:15 (New American Standard Bible)
15but [a]sanctify (A)Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready (B)to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the (C)hope that is in you, yet (D)with gentleness and (E)reverence;


1 Peter 3:15 (English Standard Version)
15but(A) in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy,(B) always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and(C) respect,

1 Peter 3:15 (New International Reader's Version)
15 But make sure in your hearts that Christ is Lord. Always be ready to give an answer to anyone who asks you about the hope you have. Be ready to give the reason for it. But do it gently and with respect.

1 Peter 3:15 (Amplified Bible)
15But in your hearts set Christ apart as holy [and acknowledge Him] as Lord. Always be ready to give a logical defense to anyone who asks you to account for the hope that is in you, but do it courteously and respectfully.



And SOME VERSIONS --- leave the phrase containing FEAR completely out and include it in verse 16, but still note RESPECT:



1 Peter 3:15 (New Living Translation)
15 Instead, you must worship Christ as Lord of your life. And if someone asks about your Christian hope, always be ready to explain it. _____????????????____________   :dontknow:
16 But do this in a gentle and respectful way.[a] Keep your conscience clear. Then if people speak against you, they will be ashamed when they see what a good life you live because you belong to Christ.

1Peter 3:15 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)
15 but set apart the Messiah [a] as Lord in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you. _______?????????????_______   :dontknow:
16 However, do this with gentleness and respect, keeping your conscience clear, so that when you are accused,  those who denounce your Christian life will be put to shame.

1 Peter 3:15 (Net Bible)
15 But set Christ apart as Lord in your hearts and always be ready to give an answer to anyone who asks about the hope you possess. 
16 Yet do it with courtesy and respect

So where does that leave us, Paul?  ABOVE I have named SEVEN translations that note RESPECT as the translation of this passage, and NOT "FEAR"  :dontknow:

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 10, 2010, 02:28:55 AMIt is a righteous fear because it is a word from God in the same manner that Gods Wrath is also righteous.

Once again out of your own invention, you use the word "righteous" in conjunction with FEAR when it is not so stated in the WORD...  :sigh:

GOD [LOVE] -- 1 John 4:8 -- casts out FEAR -- 1 John 4:18 -- if one continues IN FEAR then one is NOT MADE PERFECT in LOVE...

Regardless of your own personal insistence or inventions/enhancements ("righteous FEAR") which are made toward the WORD, and which are not found in it... :mnah:

I reiterate my question posed to you:   Of those whom LOVE you, how many of them are you AFRAID of, or do you FEAR?

We must align our beliefs with REASON -- Isaiah 1:18 -- along with the comparison of a Scripture to other Scriptures...

FEAR is NOT aligned with PEACE... which is what CHRIST -- made -- at the Cross -- Col 1:20 -- so FEAR is therefore, NOT aligned with the doings and accomplishment of the Cross...

You are welcome to FEAR all you desire brother, and be AFRAID of the one who LOVES you most... as for me, ...NO THANKS!!  :winkgrin:

Quote from: willieH on February 10, 2010, 06:43:54 AM
Oh really? On the contrary, ...it depends upon who is translating:

The greek word in the verse in question does not have that definition, thats just how it is.  .

G5401  phobos  fob'-os

from a primary phebomai (to be put in fear);

alarm or fright:--be afraid, + exceedingly, fear, terror.


Where other uses of it does.

G5399  phobeo  fob-eh'-o

from G5401;

to frighten, i.e. (passively) to be alarmed; by analogy, to be in awe of, i.e.
revere:--be (+ sore) afraid, fear (exceedingly), reverence.

These are the facts of the words that are to be considered in scripture.

QuoteOnce again out of your own invention, you use the word "righteous" in conjunction with FEAR when it is not so stated in the WORD...  :sigh:

God being righteous is not my invention and Gods instruction to us in 1 peter 3:15 is also righteous,  the word  "phobos" does not have the definition of awe or reverence and that is not my invention.  It is my conclusion through the reasoning of facts and not opinion that I say what I do.  To declare I have invented something as a basis to say I am wrong is incorrect.

Quote

I reiterate my question posed to you:   Of those whom LOVE you, how many of them are you AFRAID of, or do you FEAR?

None,  but I am not God and neither is any human I love, so the question is irrelevant. 

However, that's not the issue in seeing how fear applies.    Are you not to fear being willfully disobedient to God?   Are the warnings in the bible for believers who have been given truth and the responsibility that goes along with it pointless?   You can just walk away and ignore them and it means really nothing at all? 

Quote
We must align our beliefs with REASON -- Isaiah 1:18 -- along with the comparison of a Scripture to other Scriptures...

If your reason includes ignoring what we know to be defintions of words, then I see no reason to take your advise.

Quote

You are welcome to FEAR all you desire brother, and be AFRAID of the one who LOVES you most... as for me, ...NO THANKS!!  :winkgrin:

If you had been reading all I wrote you would see that the perspective I have is to study what is actually in scripture rather than saying I am in terror of God himself or that anyone else should walk around in a blind fear but that there is an aspect of fear that should cause us to greatly consider what we do.   

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 10, 2010, 04:35:40 PM

Quote from: willieH on February 10, 2010, 06:43:54 AM
Oh really? On the contrary, ...it depends upon who is translating:

The greek word in the verse in question does not have that definition, thats just how it is.  .

G5401  phobos  fob'-os

from a primary phebomai (to be put in fear);

alarm or fright:--be afraid, + exceedingly, fear, terror.


Where other uses of it does.

G5399  phobeo  fob-eh'-o

from G5401;

to frighten, i.e. (passively) to be alarmed; by analogy, to be in awe of, i.e.
revere:--be (+ sore) afraid, fear (exceedingly), reverence.

These are the facts of the words that are to be considered in scripture.

Here we find YOU are placing yourself above 7 Translation efforts which disagree with your proposed "expertise"...  Since when are YOU a Greek expert, Paul?

Quote from: willieHOnce again out of your own invention, you use the word "righteous" in conjunction with FEAR when it is not so stated in the WORD...  :sigh:

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 10, 2010, 04:35:40 PMGod being righteous is not my invention and Gods instruction to us in 1 peter 3:15 is also righteous,  the word  "phobos" does not have the definition of awe or reverence and that is not my invention.  It is my conclusion through the reasoning of facts and not opinion that I say what I do.

I do not argue that GOD is righteous, Heavens NO! ...I argue that FEAR is a part of LOVE, PEACE or RIGHTEOUSNESS... As well as proposing that in your present viewpoint which EMBRACES FEAR, you are thereby VEILED to PEACE, LOVE and RIGHTEOUSNESS, Paul.

That "Phobos" was used in this verse, and SEVEN (probably more) translators found it to  mean "RESPECT" must mean that the definition found of PHOBOS, includes THAT ASPECT, otherwise... these men/women are WILLFULLY joining together in their SEPARATE EFFORTS to decieve...  Do you really believe this Paul?

It is much more REASONABLE to assume they are NOT doing this... and that YOU are mistaken, or at the very least... UNINFORMED...  For their translation of this passage is IN ALIGNMENT with 1 John 4:18 and YOURS is NOT!

How can something UNFLAMMABLE BURN, Paul?  If LOVE becomes PERFECT by CASTING OUT FEAR... how could LOVE also be about INSTILLING it?   

You argue UNREASONABLY... and I could care less about whether or not you maintain your present viewpoint... My concern is that you do not MISLEAD others in expressing it.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 10, 2010, 04:35:40 PMTo declare I have invented something as a basis to say I am wrong is incorrect.

FIRST --  You make this about YOU... which is shown by this remark.  It is NOT about you or I, Paul... it is about TRUTH, and arriving upon its foundation.  I am happy to admit that I have viewed something which is VEILED, for it affords me the opportunity to: (1) know the TRUTH, and, (2) to be HUMBLE before it.

SECOND -- No man is EVER CORRECT or INCORRECT.  We are either VEILED or REVEALED concerning TRUTH... That you argue for garnering/gathering of FEAR within the experience of, and conveyed message of the GOSPEL of PEACE -- Eph 6:15 -- when LOVE is in the business of CASTING it OUT -- 1 John 4:18 --  and the FACT that the state of PEACE is the business of OPPOSING FEAR, ...displays that you are IN CONTRADICTION to the stated WORD.

THIRD -- Your method is strawman... for I never said you were WRONG... I said that you have invented terminology which is NOT USED in the Scripture... If that assertion I have made of you is "incorrect", then you will either provide Scripture which notes "RIGHTEOUS FEAR" proving your assertion that it EXISTS, or you shall NOT, proving your assertion as LESS than the TRUTH...  :dontknow:  We shall see, eh?

Quote from: willieHI reiterate my question posed to you:   Of those whom LOVE you, how many of them are you AFRAID of, or do you FEAR?

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 10, 2010, 04:35:40 PMNone,  but I am not God and neither is any human I love, so the question is irrelevant.

The question is HARDLY irrelevant... It is your PURPOSED endeavor to ignore truthfully answering it.   You dismiss it without proving Scripturally that it is awry.  :mshock:  For you are bent upon disregarding the OBVIOUS REASON that has been substancially provided you... That is fine...   You are welcome to argue that water is not WET as well, if you like... but your stance is shown UNREASONABLE by the proofs that EXIST otherwise, and have already been noted to you.

If the "LOVE" we experience with one another is OTHER than that which we experience with GOD... and HE with US... then please note and DEFINE this "other form" of LOVE to us Paul.  Please use the Scriptures to provide this definition, instead just your own words. (which is usually your method)

Where is "HUMAN LOVE" even denoted in the Scriptures, Paul?  And where is it noted as different than DIVINE LOVE?

LOVE is LOVE... it is not something that has numerous variations.

We do not need to be GOD to experience LOVE... in fact we are INSTRUCTED to LOVE one another.  How can we employ something that only GOD is able to employ? :rolleye:

LOVE is clearly defined in 1 Cor 13 -- Please show me where FEAR exists in the defintion of LOVE as provided in 1 Cor 13, Paul...

Also, please display for us (Scripturally) the difference between "human LOVE" and "Divine LOVE"...

If you CANNOT, then once again, your SILENCE is enough to display the VEIL in your life concerning this subject.

No offense brother, ...but I maintain that you have "invented" your own set of definitions... we shall see if they are found in the Scriptures either by your SILENCE or your notations of Scripture which found them as NOT "inventions"...

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 10, 2010, 04:35:40 PMHowever, that's not the issue in seeing how fear applies.    Are you not to fear being willfully disobedient to God?

Are you saying that you can be UNWILLFULLY disobedient to God, Paul?  When does that occur?  Any "DISOBEDIENCE" has INTENT as well as has knowledge of what "OBEDIENCE" IS, in order to oppose it!

FEAR is NOT (and NEVER HAS BEEN) the motivator of LOVE... Is THAT how you raised your children Paul?  Or is THAT how you maintain a relationship with a woman?  By proposing enough FEAR to keep her (or the kids) "in line"?  And wherein is found the FULFILLMENT of LOVE, found in the heart by enacting such an agenda?  Where is the PEACE in such an approach, Paul?  :dontknow:  It is truly HARD for me to believe that you do you not see the ILLOGIC that is present in such a proposal?  :mshock: 

ALL men are WILLFUL sinners Paul... do you know why?  I'll be curious as to your answer (if you have the guts to answer)...  :dontknow:

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 10, 2010, 04:35:40 PMAre the warnings in the bible for believers who have been given truth and the responsibility that goes along with it pointless?   You can just walk away and ignore them and it means really nothing at all?

Your biggest problem brother, is that you look upon the WORD of LOVE as a set of "WARNINGS"... which it is NOT.  It is a LOVE STORY...  Not a DIVINE -- "Stephen King type" writing!  Filled with the conclusive HORRORS of FEAR and UNREASONABLE PUNISHMENTS!

As the DIVINE "parent" of ALL... you would demote Him to being LESS in the ability to LOVE than are humans...  :pitiful:

Humans can LOVE and NUTURE and GUIDE their Children... but according to YOU --- if GOD's Kids "don't get it"... they end up "walking the plank!"  :ticked: :punish:  Please!  Are you that [WILLFULLY] BLIND, Paul?  :sigh:

RESPONSIBILITY

More imaginitive invention, ...We are not "responsible" for anything.  GOD is WORKING ALL THINGS -- Eph 1:11 -- Paul... or don't you believe that either?  :JCThink:   :sigh:

Where in the WORD is noted our "responsibility"?  GOD is the one RESPONSIBLE... for it is HIS Creation (not ours) HIS agenda (not ours), HIS Salvation (get ready -- NOT OURS), and HIS Knowledge (get ready again -- NOT OURS) that is REVEALED in this life...  You and I and everything we do... is HIS KNOWLEDGE, Paul!  FOREKNOWN and DECLARED before ANY of it took place!  :cloud9:

You DEMOTE our Almighty GOD to be a reactive entity to OUR "DOINGS", instead of KNOWING the TRUTH which denotes WE are REACTIVE to HIS DOINGS... 

God did not set you and I upon the earth, and then "sit back" to see what you or I would do!  :laughing7:  Please!  You and I were set upon this earth, to DO as HE DECLARED you and I would DO! -- Isaiah 46:10-11 -- Rom 4:17 -- Rom 9:11-- Eph 2:10 :nod:

CHRIST was slain from the FOUNDATION of the WORLD -- Rev 13:8 -- in which ALL the SONS of GOD shouted for JOY! -- Job 38:7 -- What "JOY" is in that act Paul?  Before ANY sin had occured... GOD had ORDAINED His Son to die to redeem all from the experience they were about to have!  The JOY is that we would be DIVINELY enlightened! 

And that SUCH GREAT LOVE existed in YHVH and His Son, that EVERYTHING would find redemption and return from the experience, even though it would be HARD for ALL... it would be the CROWNING manifestation of YHVH to reveal HIS ENTIRE HEART to us!

Your view belittles the whole experience.  Making it a VENGENT, HORROR and FEAR FILLED and ILLOGICAL one instead of REASONABLE and FULFILLING one, as LOVE completes ALL THINGS...  :pitiful:

Quote from: willieHWe must align our beliefs with REASON -- Isaiah 1:18 -- along with the comparison of a Scripture to other Scriptures...

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 10, 2010, 04:35:40 PMIf your reason includes ignoring what we know to be defintions of words, then I see no reason to take your advise.

To begin with, I object to your use of the word "WE" in your statement...

I have already shown that what "YOU KNOW" to be DEFINITION, is questionable.  SEVEN witnesses disagree with what "YOU KNOW"...

And you have completely missed out on the motivation for my posts... I could care less about "advising" YOU.  You are unable to take anyones advice... which is ORDAINED.  I pretty much post at Tentmaker, for the purpose of EXPOSING agendas and beliefs which are not ALIGNED with the WORD...

To date in this thread, you have not REFUTED ANYTHING that I have said to you... You just endeavor to SIDESTEP it...  Which is your decision... and YOU shall present that "decision" before YHVH.

Quote from: willieHYou are welcome to FEAR all you desire brother, and be AFRAID of the one who LOVES you most... as for me, ...NO THANKS!!  :winkgrin:

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 10, 2010, 04:35:40 PMIf you had been reading all I wrote you would see that the perspective I have is to study what is actually in scripture rather than saying I am in terror of God himself or that anyone else should walk around in a blind fear but that there is an aspect of fear that should cause us to greatly consider what we do.   

I have indeed READ what you have stated Paul... and responded IN DETAIL... something that YOU HAVE NOT DONE...

If you choose to be AFRAID of GOD, and thereby DECIEVE yourself as to what the doings of LOVE are, and how they are stated in the WORD... then so be it... 

However... Know that I shall oppose you as you try to propose said ILLOGICAL self-deceit to the hearts of others... and present in its place, the GOSPEL of PEACE which not only is DEVOID of FEAR, but is about eliminating FEAR by CASTING IT OUT. :boogie:

Quote from: willieH on February 10, 2010, 11:25:08 PM
[Here we find YOU are placing yourself above 7 Translation efforts which disagree with your proposed "expertise"...  Since when are YOU a Greek expert, Paul?

No, I looked up the definition in strongs and some translations use the word fear, that is not placing myself above anyone.

QuoteThat "Phobos" was used in this verse, and SEVEN (probably more) translators found it to  mean "RESPECT" must mean that the definition found of PHOBOS, includes THAT ASPECT, otherwise... these men/women are WILLFULLY joining together in their SEPARATE EFFORTS to decieve...  Do you really believe this Paul?

Then you would conclude  by this argument that age is not the properly translated word for aionios since most translators use everlasting?  

QuoteNo offense brother, ...but I maintain that you have "invented" your own set of definitions... we shall see if they are found in the Scriptures either by your SILENCE or your notations of Scripture which found them as NOT "inventions"...

None taken but your point is incorrectly made.  I have already used scripture by posting a verse from a translation that uses the word fear.  I have not invented the definition of phobos I used strongs notes.  You can present the case that the sources I used are incorrect but you are wrong that I have invented a defintion.

Quote

FEAR is NOT (and NEVER HAS BEEN) the motivator of LOVE...

Never said it was and was not the point of anything I have written.

Quote
Is THAT how you raised your children Paul?

I explained that in a previous comment, you stated that you have read all that I have written, if that is true then question me on what I wrote about that issue.

QuoteYour biggest problem brother, is that you look upon the WORD of LOVE as a set of "WARNINGS"... which it is NOT.  It is a LOVE STORY...  Not a DIVINE -- "Stephen King type" writing!  Filled with the conclusive HORRORS of FEAR and UNREASONABLE PUNISHMENTS!

That is not my problem and have not proposed any such thing as horrors or fear of unreasonable punishments.  So here you are mistaken.

 

QuoteYou DEMOTE our Almighty GOD to be a reactive entity to OUR "DOINGS", instead of KNOWING the TRUTH which denotes WE are REACTIVE to HIS DOINGS...  

No, you imply that I have falsely.

Quote
Your view belittles the whole experience.  Making it a VENGENT, HORROR and FEAR FILLED and ILLOGICAL one instead of REASONABLE and FULFILLING one, as LOVE completes ALL THINGS...  :pitiful:

False, in fact I proposed in the thread that we consider the difference between religion based horrors and the definition in strongs for "phobos".

QuoteYou are unable to take anyones advice

False.

Quote
To date in this thread, you have not REFUTED ANYTHING that I have said to you... You just endeavor to SIDESTEP it...  Which is your decision... and YOU shall present that "decision" before YHVH.

I have,  you simply make accusations to say otherwise.

Quote
I have indeed READ what you have stated Paul... and responded IN DETAIL... something that YOU HAVE NOT DONE...

The amount of words one chooses to write is irrelevant.

Quote
However... Know that I shall oppose you as you try to propose said ILLOGICAL self-deceit to the hearts of others... and present in its place, the GOSPEL of PEACE which not only is DEVOID of FEAR, but is about eliminating FEAR by CASTING IT OUT. :boogie:

And so you oppose what I write, so what?

Psalm 69

30 I will praise the name of God with a song, and will magnify him with thanksgiving.

31 This also shall please the LORD better than an ox or bullock that hath horns and hoofs.

32 The humble shall see this, and be glad: and your heart shall live that seek God.


Displeasing my Lord is my fear.
Horror is a term I attribute to the womb of man.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdQje_gJ0ko

It's like a relay race and Jesus was the last runner with the baton than won the race for the team!
Amazing!

Quote from: Beloved Servant on February 11, 2010, 01:57:33 AM


www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdQje_gJ0ko

Who could be afraid of Jesus?

FRANKLY, IT'S AN INSULT TO OUR SAVIOR.

And if someone insults the Saviour, then what?

He's perfect!
It's impossible.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on February 11, 2010, 02:19:33 AM


He's perfect!
It's impossible.

Now were getting somewhere.

He is not the One who gets out of alignment — it is us!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUd4-dxAm-E

It's a living race for all — we have to hand Him the baton!

How? Faith!
And where does faith come from?

Faith is a gift from God. Faith is not of our doing.

 Hebrews 12:2  ...Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith.

 Romans 12:3  ... God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

 Romans 10:17   ... faith comes from hearing and hearing by the word of Christ.

 2 Cor 10:15  ...faith can grow...

 Romans 5:1   ... justified by faith...

 Romans 4:5  ... his faith is counted as righteousness.

 Ephesians 2:8,9  ... salvation is not from works.

 Romans 9:32 ... Israel did not arrive at righteousness because they did not pursue righteous by faith but as though it were by works.

 Hebrews 12:2  ...Jesus is the author!
 

Here is an example of why I started this thread, it is not to instill fear of God or Jesus into anyone it is to consider the facts that are available.   This is reasonable and will not be found unreasonable.  Only the implication of such through false means or misunderstanding will someone say such nonsense. 

I was asked how I raised my children and perhaps a bit more detail is necessary to avoid conflict if it is possible.


While It would be pleasing to me that right out of the womb my kids adored me SOOOOO much that they inherantly would just listen to my great words of instruction, even perhaps at a young age they might not even understand what I was saying, but because I was so loving and righteous I could believe that they understood me. Of course such a thing is preposterous.

So to rely on my Love for them  to inherantly  keep my kids from running out into the street into traffic before they can understand love or why they should not is stupid and foolish.   

Yes,  I instilled fear of consequenses into them,  but I did not instill terrible horrors that would cause them to see me as a great monster they had to please or else.   Yes, as a father in some part of their thinking there was a fear involved that they were not willing to overcome and go ahead and run out into the street.

Today, while I know I made mistakes and did not do everything perfectly there are many things my kids thank me for because now they understand the righteousness of that fear for the time it was necessary.

It is interesting though, this verse....

Lk 17:2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.

Ah no big deal huh? 

The religious aspect of the word "phobos" in scripture has come down to only one consideration, we must only consider what is wrong if it will reap us an eternal horror in the torture in misery of hell.

The scriptures speak of moderation in all things.   Do we as reasonable people really only consider what we do based on horrors? We often watch out when we are cutting a tomato so that we do not slice our finger.  I do not want to slice my finger, and I would not consider slicing my finger a great "horror" but am I to fear cutting a tomato simply based  upon the possibility that I may cut my finger?  I think not.

Well, lets say I do not know how to use a knife and have never sliced my finger open and  someone says that I should not try until I learn because you could slice open your finger and they detail a very distasteful picture of what may happen.   There is a reasonable approach that to fear based upon consequenses.  I do not actually have to love or respect someone who offers the advise of harm if I do not know what I am doing.


If a teacher was instructing me and I needed to be afraid of harm based upon something I do not understand, it is quite righteous to instill that fear.  That teacher would then instruct me in the proper procedure to do something therefor CASTING out fear with understanding.

This is what I am talking about and writing to consider.  It is actually trying to take all of scripture and the definitions that scholars and translators have given us as resources to study and consider things.   If you believe I am trying to make people afraid of God or Jesus then you are in fact mistaken.

Yes, it is.
That is why those who are called to teach do so with profound truth or a reverent silence of the Lord.


Edit: This was to your previous post.
I was outside shoveling snow. For the THIRD time today! lol
Praise the Lord.

Upon searching 22 various translations of the WORD, and a hundred and forty-three verses in the Hebrew and Greek languages:

"Let all the earth fear/REVERENCE/stand in awe of the Lord."

peacemaker

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 11, 2010, 02:54:10 AM



Here is an example of why I started this thread, it is not to instill fear of God or Jesus into anyone it is to consider the facts that are available.   This is reasonable and will not be found unreasonable.  Only the implication of such through false means or misunderstanding will someone say such nonsense.  

I was asked how I raised my children and perhaps a bit more detail is necessary to avoid conflict if it is possible.


While It would be pleasing to me that right out of the womb my kids adored me SOOOOO much that they inherantly would just listen to my great words of instruction, even perhaps at a young age they might not even understand what I was saying, but because I was so loving and righteous I could believe that they understood me. Of course such a thing is preposterous.

So to rely on my Love for them  to inherantly  keep my kids from running out into the street into traffic before they can understand love or why they should not is stupid and foolish.  

Yes,  I instilled fear of consequenses into them,  but I did not instill terrible horrors that would cause them to see me as a great monster they had to please or else.   Yes, as a father in some part of their thinking there was a fear involved that they were not willing to overcome and go ahead and run out into the street.

Today, while I know I made mistakes and did not do everything perfectly there are many things my kids thank me for because now they understand the righteousness of that fear for the time it was necessary.

It is interesting though, this verse....

Lk 17:2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.

Ah no big deal huh?  

I know what you mean. There is a show on TV called "Intervention" a documentary show that details drug/alcohol abuse and culminating in an intervention. At first I thought it would be exploitative, yet it has emerged as one of the best television programs I have ever seen. Anyway, when my daughter is of an age to understand and digest it, I will show her some episodes, so she can see with her own eyes how a precious life can be destroyed by abuse of substances. This I hope will instill a fear, not a fear of a monster or of God-inflicted torture, but a fear of ending up in that situation. That, I hope will MOTIVATE her into making healthy choices. Jesus warned his disciples of Gehenna. Whatever someone believes Gehenna represents, we should be fearful of being there. I believe Gehenna represents defilement in a life of sin, for reasons I will not detail now as it isn't really my point. The point is that there are different kinds of fear, not just the boogieman fears instilled by the hell-indoctrinated church. That sort of fear is not, by necessity, in opposition to love. Fear of consequences is like that. I agree.

The mental picture is not the reality, its only duality; the tree of knowledge.

"Fear and control, give way to  illusions of Separation."

peacemaker

The posts following by Paul and Willie have been removed to the Moderator's Holding Tank.  Let's stop petty bikering and stay on the topic.  You're both wonderful brothers!  I could say let's act our age.  "Godliness with contentment is great gain."

James

Quote from: reFORMer on February 12, 2010, 12:51:38 AM
The posts following by Paul and Willie have been removed to the Moderator's Holding Tank.  Let's stop petty bikering and stay on the topic.  You're both wonderful brothers!

James

Thank You.

(http://dl8.glitter-graphics.net/pub/932/932868vduvgm1jhg.jpg) (http://www.glitter-graphics.com)
Holding Pen

Nothing's funnier than literalism combined with animals, especially little fuzzy ones.  :laughing7:

The pharasees were instructed by Jesus to beware.


Mt 23:33  "Serpents! Progeny of vipers! How may you be fleeing from the judging of
Gehenna?

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 13, 2010, 05:21:30 AM
The pharasees were instructed by Jesus to beware.

Mt 23:33  "Serpents! Progeny of vipers! How may you be fleeing from the judging of
Gehenna?

"Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues..." (vs. 34)

But even the pharasees had hope.


Mt 23:39 For I am saying to you: You may by no means be perceiving Me henceforth, till you should be saying,  Blessed is He Who is coming in the name of the Lord!'"

"May peace be within your walls."

peacemaker

Quote from: lomarah on February 10, 2010, 01:41:33 AM
The fear of the Lord is the BEGINNING of wisdom. My daughter is a year and a half. She does not yet understand that she cannot run out into the road without being in danger of being hit by a car. But she does understand that Mommy and Daddy will get VERY upset if she goes near the road without holding one of our hands. When she gets older she will realize why and she will be very grateful, i'm sure, that we instilled that fear into her.

Knowing that God will hold me accountable and will punish me if need be makes me feel secure and safe. (For example, He punished Ananias and Sapphira, David and Bathsheba, and many more.) I am grateful for God's punishments because they are always for my benefit, to make me into His image of goodness and righteousness. And they are always just.

Love cannot be born out of a fear of punishment. True love is selfless without the presence of fear, which pours itself out on the object of it's affection; not demanding anything in return, but truth and sound judgment. Although I understand your perception, given the age of a child who may be unable to comprehend at present.

"Train up a child in the way he should go, Even when he is old he will not depart from it."

To develop or form the habits, thoughts, or behavior of a child or other person by discipline (correction) and instruction.

peacemaker

Quote from: peacemaker on February 14, 2010, 10:18:21 PM

Quote from: lomarah on February 10, 2010, 01:41:33 AM
The fear of the Lord is the BEGINNING of wisdom. My daughter is a year and a half. She does not yet understand that she cannot run out into the road without being in danger of being hit by a car. But she does understand that Mommy and Daddy will get VERY upset if she goes near the road without holding one of our hands. When she gets older she will realize why and she will be very grateful, i'm sure, that we instilled that fear into her.

Knowing that God will hold me accountable and will punish me if need be makes me feel secure and safe. (For example, He punished Ananias and Sapphira, David and Bathsheba, and many more.) I am grateful for God's punishments because they are always for my benefit, to make me into His image of goodness and righteousness. And they are always just.

Love cannot be born out of a fear of punishment. True love is selfless without the presence of fear, which pours itself out on the object of it's affection; not demanding anything in return, but truth and sound judgment. Although I understand your perception, given the age of a child who may be unable to comprehend at present.

"Train up a child in the way he should go, Even when he is old he will not depart from it."

To develop or form the habits, thoughts, or behavior of a child or other person by discipline (correction) and instruction.

peacemaker

I agree that love is not born out of punishment or fear, I am only saying that love will correct for the sake of the loved one.

When your judgments come upon the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness. -Isaiah 26:9

As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. - Revelation 3:19

Quote from: WhiteWings on February 06, 2010, 09:08:37 AM
If rejecting the infinite God requires punishment of infinite duration, I guess the punishment itself should be of infinite severity....

Thats not even scriptural or reasonable.  I think it was Thomas Aquintas who stated that in Theological Summa.

Finite man can't even comprehend the infinite, let alone be responsible for what it doesn't know.

I can only wonder at the Damnationalist mindset; who is the bigger man?  The spec of dust that is human, or the infinite all graceful God?

Quote from: Universalist Catholic on October 25, 2010, 12:33:23 AM

Quote from: WhiteWings on February 06, 2010, 09:08:37 AM
If rejecting the infinite God requires punishment of infinite duration, I guess the punishment itself should be of infinite severity....

Thats not even scriptural or reasonable.  I think it was Thomas Aquintas who stated that in Theological Summa.

But man is not infinite, therefore a limited sin, requires limited punishment.

Quote from: Universalist Catholic on October 25, 2010, 12:33:23 AM

Quote from: WhiteWings on February 06, 2010, 09:08:37 AM
If rejecting the infinite God requires punishment of infinite duration, I guess the punishment itself should be of infinite severity....

Thats not even scriptural or reasonable.  I think it was Thomas Aquintas who stated that in Theological Summa.

I don't know wh first wrote that UC.
I just quoted some "wisdom" from the ET thinktank... :mshock:

Quote from: thinktank on October 25, 2010, 08:14:28 PM

Quote from: Universalist Catholic on October 25, 2010, 12:33:23 AM

Quote from: WhiteWings on February 06, 2010, 09:08:37 AM
If rejecting the infinite God requires punishment of infinite duration, I guess the punishment itself should be of infinite severity....

Thats not even scriptural or reasonable.  I think it was Thomas Aquintas who stated that in Theological Summa.

But man is not infinite, therefore a limited sin, requires limited punishment.

Man is infinte. Everyone has eternal life.
Eternal life in heaven for the saints.
And because the wages of sin is death; eternal life in hell for the sinners.

Smart peepz those ETarians  :icon_jokercolor:

I don't know wh first wrote that UC.
I just quoted some "wisdom" from the ET thinktank... :mshock:


A bright light enters............"whitewings why ETist thou me"

whitewings: "Is that you lord"

.....umm not quite I just wearing my new silk shiny robe bought from china, the light is what you make it. But now I know why so many people here hate me, coz you think I'm an Etist, it's a simple mistake to make, I only torture people for a few minutes with my posts (or hours depends on person), then they have freedom for the rest of the day, while others plot revenge, similar to how the enemies of Jesus plotted revenge on him. But seriously I hope my words have not been to tortureous, otherwise my future career as a pastor is over, I'll have to apply to be a trafficwarden instead.  :icon_joker: :icon_jokercolor:

I don't understand your statement.

Are you implying that a traffic warden is a lowly occupation?

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 26, 2010, 02:09:53 AM


I don't understand your statement.

Are you implying that a traffic warden is a lowly occupation?

No, a lot of people hate trafficwardens because they hand out tickets, they think they are mean people who enjoy booking them despite all their pleading that where they parked is a legitimate parking space.

Hmmm, never thought of one that way.

The signs are obvious to those that look for them.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 26, 2010, 02:59:45 AM



Hmmm, never thought of one that way.

The signs are obvious to those that look for them.

I haven't either and thankfully never been booked but I perceive that the general population does think of them as mean because trafficwardens are often taken the mickey out of on TV comedy.

Some of the signs though are not so obvious, I can understand why some drivers would get angry for being booked, such as driving a pregnant women to hospital and geting booked for parking the car illegally etc these instances I pray love will prevail over law.

 :cloud9: I don't think anyone here hates you, TT..... :sigh:  :girlheart:

Quote from: Cardinal on October 26, 2010, 04:25:50 AM
:cloud9: I don't think anyone here hates you, TT..... :sigh:  :girlheart:

I don't know what to say I was just joking around with whitewings -  but personality number 7 says thank you for your reassurance.   :boyheart:

 :cloud9: Oh, ok, missed the context, I guess, LOL   :mblush:

willieH: Hi everyallofya's...  :laughing7:

This is an older thread, but some of the things that were mentioned got completely ignored... So I pose the following, and if you choose to reply to these, ...please reply with Scriptural foundation for any views you might hold in regard to them:

1.  ...FEAR is being in the state of TURMOIL --- If FEAR is indeed a part of the GOSPEL of PEACE (and should be taught accordingly), ...and TURMOIL was addressed by CHRIST speaking PEACE to the STORM (the elements being IN TURMOIL)  Please name one element of TURMOIL which is an INTREGAL and NEEDED part of the definition of PEACE.  :JCThink:


2.   ...In the Scriptures, GOD is noted as LOVE -- 1 John 4:8 -- and LOVE is defined in 1 Cor 13 -- Please note where FEAR is found in this description...  :JCThink:


3.   ...If GOD intends us to FEAR (phobos=afraid) Him... and HE is UNCHANGING, then are we to be in FEAR eternally?   So any portion of His DIVINITY which would require us to be AFRAID (phobos) of Him,  shall by His claim to be UNCHANGING,  therefore continue forever?  :JCThink:


4.   ...Paul H. notes the assertion in this topic, that FEAR and HORROR (as if) they are 2 different things  "fear VS horror"...   

Please s'plain 2 me, the diff?  ...How shall one be without or disassociated with, ...the other? 

If one is in FEAR (afraid) of something, is one not in ...HORROR of it?  Or if one is in HORROR of something, is not one in ...FEAR (afraid) of it?  :JCThink:

Merriam webster:
hor·ror noun \ˈhȯr-ər, ˈhär-\
Definition of HORROR
1a : painful and intense fear, dread, or dismay <astonishment giving place to horror on the faces of the people about me


5.  If FEAR is indeed part of the message of PEACE, then why was PEACE wished by the writers, and FEAR COMPLETELY disincluded in almost ALL (but 3) of the OPENING (or closing) Salutations of the letters to the church in varying communities?  -- Eph 1:2 -- Rom 1:7 -- 1 Cor 1:3 -- 2 Cor 1:2 -- Gal 1:3 -- Phil 1:2 -- Col 1:2 -- 1 Thess 1:2 -- 2 Thess 1:2 -- 1 Tim 1:2 -- 2 Tim 1:2 -- Titus 1:4 -- Philemon 1:3 -- 1 Pet 1:2 -- 2 Pet 1:2 -- 2 John 3 -- 3 John 14 [closing] -- Jude 2   :JCThink:


:Peace: (not "FEAR") be untayiz...  :grouppray:

Quote from: willieH on October 27, 2010, 12:10:27 AM
willieH: Hi everyallofya's...  :laughing7:

This is an older thread, but some of the things that were mentioned got completely ignored... So I pose the following, and if you choose to reply to these, ...please reply with Scriptural foundation for any views you might hold in regard to them:

1.  ...FEAR is being in the state of TURMOIL --- If FEAR is indeed a part of the GOSPEL of PEACE (and should be taught accordingly), ...and TURMOIL was addressed by CHRIST speaking PEACE to the STORM (the elements being IN TURMOIL)  Please name one element of TURMOIL which is an INTREGAL and NEEDED part of the definition of PEACE.  :JCThink:


2.   ...In the Scriptures, GOD is noted as LOVE -- 1 John 4:8 -- and LOVE is defined in 1 Cor 13 -- Please note where FEAR is found in this description...  :JCThink:


3.   ...If GOD intends us to FEAR (phobos=afraid) Him... and HE is UNCHANGING, then are we to be in FEAR eternally?   So any portion of His DIVINITY which would require us to be AFRAID (phobos) of Him,  shall by His claim to be UNCHANGING,  therefore continue forever?  :JCThink:


4.   ...Paul H. notes the assertion in this topic, that FEAR and HORROR (as if) they are 2 different things  "fear VS horror"...   

Please s'plain 2 me, the diff?  ...How shall one be without or disassociated with, ...the other? 

If one is in FEAR (afraid) of something, is one not in ...HORROR of it?  Or if one is in HORROR of something, is not one in ...FEAR (afraid) of it?  :JCThink:

Merriam webster:
hor·ror noun \ˈhȯr-ər, ˈhär-\
Definition of HORROR
1a : painful and intense fear, dread, or dismay <astonishment giving place to horror on the faces of the people about me


5.  If FEAR is indeed part of the message of PEACE, then why was PEACE wished by the writers, and FEAR COMPLETELY disincluded in almost ALL (but 3) of the OPENING (or closing) Salutations of the letters to the church in varying communities?  -- Eph 1:2 -- Rom 1:7 -- 1 Cor 1:3 -- 2 Cor 1:2 -- Gal 1:3 -- Phil 1:2 -- Col 1:2 -- 1 Thess 1:2 -- 2 Thess 1:2 -- 1 Tim 1:2 -- 2 Tim 1:2 -- Titus 1:4 -- Philemon 1:3 -- 1 Pet 1:2 -- 2 Pet 1:2 -- 2 John 3 -- 3 John 14 [closing] -- Jude 2   :JCThink:


:Peace: (not "FEAR") be untayiz...  :grouppray:

...willieH  :cloud9:

The scriptures speak for themselves in this matter.  There is no reason for Jesus to warn anyone about thier behavior if there is nothing at all to be concerned with.  If Love makes us all giddy no matter what we do, then Jesus was blowing hot air concerning the things he said as warnings to people.  If the prostitute could just be all giddy and carefree about being a prostiture then Jesus was telling the prostitute to go and sin no more for absolutely no reason whatsoever.

While you can quote verses of Love, this thread was not disputing LOVE, so just to make that clear,  I believe God is LOVE, but GODS LOVE is not necessarily what a person wants it to be.

The intention was to point out that it is healthy to take a perspective in life that says you are accountable for what you do, it is actually deterimental to a persons emotional and spiritual well being to believe that horrors await someone who doesn't always measure up because God is loving and gracious and merciful, but he never promises to spare you from reaping what you sow.

If you do not like the word fear, use another word,  but we are accountable for our actions and words and the scriptures tell us so. 

If God didn't chasten us, he'd be a hateful father.  A father who doesn't chasten his son hates him.

Proverbs 13:24  He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.

willieH: Hi Paul...  :cloud9:

Though you quoted my post, you hardly answered any of the points in it... which is fine... but raises the question, why quote it?  :dontknow:

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on October 27, 2010, 11:47:51 PMThe scriptures speak for themselves in this matter.  There is no reason for Jesus to warn anyone about thier behavior if there is nothing at all to be concerned with.

Your opinion is duly noted... but it certainly depends upon which "version/translation" one is reading, as to what the Scriptures "speak" concerning this matter... As I have already noted earlier in the thread...  :laughing7:

Well... Cancer, Aids, Tuberculosis, Heart disease, Shingles, Emphysema, Leprosy, MS, and the like are no "Party at the park"...

Behaviors in the Flesh which are contrary to the stated commands of God, are subject to myriads of available and compounding corruptions...  :dontknow:   And certainly these and many others are reputable enough "horrors" to merit a fearfulness of them entering into ones circumstances...  :dontknow: 

Not to be afraid of GOD, ...rather to become aware and concerned over ones own DECISIONS in the conducting and living of LIFE, which CARELESSLY include INDULGING in that which is contrary to the command of God.

But PEACE is what the Cross establishes and what the GOSPEL is all about, as well as that for which the GOSPEL is named, ...which DOES NOT include, ...FEAR! -- Eph 6:15 -- Rom 10:15

When one embraces the GOSPEL, one endeavors to separate him/herself from continuing in that which is FEARFUL and DETRIMENTAL...

Thereby LOVE working IN the believer -- Gal 2:20 -- is seen casting OUT said FEARS that seek to assault the LIFE of the believer.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on October 27, 2010, 11:47:51 PMIf Love makes us all giddy no matter what we do, then Jesus was blowing hot air concerning the things he said as warnings to people.  If the prostitute could just be all giddy and carefree about being a prostiture then Jesus was telling the prostitute to go and sin no more for absolutely no reason whatsoever.

Please...  :shakepoint:

FIRST --- no one is suggesting that we become "giddy" over the guiding LOVE of God... rather that in our best interests, we shall find a course which sidesteps those things which represent FEAR/horror, by the obedience of SOWING to the SPIRIT as opposed to sowing to the FLESH.  :dontknow:

SECOND --- It is plain to see that CHRIST sought for the protitute to embrace SIN-LESS practices in her life, that more of the same did not befall her... He did not WARN her that she should BE FEARFUL, rather He recommended to her guiding REASON in light of that which was experienced by her in the incident that had just occured...  :dontknow:   And due to His obvious LOVE for her, He recommended to her the pathway that was BEST for her to travel... which was to SIN no more. :nod:

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on October 27, 2010, 11:47:51 PMWhile you can quote verses of Love, this thread was not disputing LOVE, so just to make that clear,  I believe God is LOVE, but GODS LOVE is not necessarily what a person wants it to be.

My post was about "FEAR vs HORROR" ...which are not in OPPOSITION to one another as the thread title indicates... they indeed are the same thing... and in this answer, you have not at all explained the slightest difference between them.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on October 27, 2010, 11:47:51 PMThe intention was to point out that it is healthy to take a perspective in life that says you are accountable for what you do, it is actually deterimental to a persons emotional and spiritual well being to believe that horrors await someone who doesn't always measure up because God is loving and gracious and merciful, but he never promises to spare you from reaping what you sow.

I never stated or insinuated that --- "He promises to spare you from reaping what you sow" --- It is my position that it is NECESSARY that one reaps what one sows... as well as this process taking place NOW... not in some invented and dreaded and FEARED, "afterlife".

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on October 27, 2010, 11:47:51 PMIf you do not like the word fear, use another word,  but we are accountable for our actions and words and the scriptures tell us so.

FIRST --- I have already shown in detail in another answer in this topic, that several translators disagree with your position on the word PHOBOS... For it also contains the connotation of REVERANCE/RESPECT and/or AWE...  If LOVE is in the business of casting OUT FEAR... then it is not in the business of RECOMMENDING one to gather it in and/or harbor it, ...let alone teaching others to do so...  :thumbdown:

SECOND --- We are giving account of ourselves NOW as we live in our moments... before the ONE that is present in every one of them.  There is no need for YHVH to rehash all the individual distastes contained in our lives... but when He is become ALL in ALL, ...then ALL shall be known of our lives by ALL...

When we KNOW as we are KNOWN (which is completely) -- 1 Cor 13:9-12 -- for when LOVE is revealed in its totality -- 1 Cor 13:8 -- then KNOWLEDGE is no longer an issue, for LOVE in its FULLNESS surpasses KNOWLEDGE -- Eph 3:19

In the mean time, there shall be proponents/teachers of FEAR/horror which only display that they are yet to be made PERFECT in LOVE, for he which is made PERFECT in LOVE, is become devoid of FEAR/horror... 

And he who clings to FEAR/horror as well as teaches others to cling to FEAR/horror... clings to that which is NOT a part of, and is CAST away by LOVE... :nod:

My  :2c:

Fear is not a part of the gospel, it is a consequence of darkness and chaos. This consequence is usually the result of rejecting reconciliation. The fear(awe reverence) of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom simply because it recognizes the deliverance provided within God's love and also provides an awareness of the consequence of darkness/chaos/disharmony/rebellion. The fear of the consequence of willfully walking outside the covenant of life is..... a part of the law.


If Jesus, or the prophets, or the law, warn us of the consequence it is not so that we would be afraid of God. It is so we will clearly see the choice before us, and understand that God is true to His word. He will chop down the fruitless tree and cast it into the fire. He will purify all our alloys in the fire. And praise God for that, The purifying of our faith is more precious than gold tried in the fire- so, let us buy eyesalve for our eyes and white raiment and gold purified in the fire....according to His council, lest we experience the consequence of ignoring the warning. The warning is merely the trumpet of the coming consequence of our actions, functioning like a tutor, to lead us to Christ where our love is perfected and casts out all fear.


The law lives in the flesh and in the carnal mind as a tutor until it is no longer needed. When it is no longer needed, every unbelieving member has perished in the wilderness, we have entered His rest, having ceased from our own works. The adversaries have been "done away". Now, we walk in "Today, If you hear my voice"... "for all those who are led by the Spirit are the sons of God".

Interestingly enough, the word used for "when that which is perfect is come, that which is imperfect will be "done away/made void"(katargeo) is the same word used in 1 Cor. 15 "The last enemy to be "destroyed/done away/made void" is death; and also Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered(katargeo) from the law, that being dead wherein we were held(having died to our former life); that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

The law and its partner, fear of death, are no longer needed because love is perfected as a person enters 1)the glorious liberty of the sons of god, 2)the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus, 3)"zeal for thine house consumes me", 4)"Behold it is written in the volume of the book of me, 'I come to do Thy will O God'." Jesus warns of the consequence of refusing to be perfected in love. The wise heed the warning and live. The foolish ignore it to their peril in this life (and for some,IMO, the next-altho I know where you stand on that issue Willie :o)

My point being that if you are outside the newness of the Spirit and still alive unto the flesh....whether flesh as religion/law or flesh as lust of the flesh/pleasures of the mind you will not be perfected in love and you will have fear and fear has torment. That torment is a testimony that we are immature in love. "I pray that you may be one that your joy may be full". Righteousness, peace, joy in the Holy Ghost. So we are all(IMO) in measure by measure, with ever-increasing glory, from glory to glory as we behold Him, growing into perfection- that perfection being in love. We can tell how far we have to go by the degree in which fear(and partners anger, pride, lust etc) hold sway in our lives DAY BY DAY. Peace, being the fruit of righteousness,  standing by grace through faith in the love of God DECLARES OUR DELIVERANCE AND OUR VICTORY without the necessity of words, in the fulness of JOY. The dawn growing unto the full day. Thats why sons are peacemakers. Thats why the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown IN PEACE by them that make peace, so, peace brothers, John

He that believes in me has passed from death into life.

Quote from: willieH on October 28, 2010, 01:36:19 AM

Though you quoted my post, you hardly answered any of the points in it... which is fine... but raises the question, why quote it?  :dontknow:

If you read through the thread, I am not sure what more I need to say.  You can reread my previous posts, there is no need for me to repeat myself more.  I couldn't care less if you agree with me or if you think I have not answered all your questions, you can say what you need to say about it to get it off your chest I guess, but you can think what you like about it.

Quote
Your opinion is duly noted...

Thank you.

Quote from: eaglesway on October 28, 2010, 03:57:06 AM
My  :2c:

Fear is not a part of the gospel, it is a consequence of darkness and chaos. This consequence is usually the result of rejecting reconciliation. The fear(awe reverence) of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom simply because it recognizes the deliverance provided within God's love and also provides an awareness of the consequence of darkness/chaos/disharmony/rebellion. The fear of the consequence of willfully walking outside the covenant of life is..... a part of the law.


If Jesus, or the prophets, or the law, warn us of the consequence it is not so that we would be afraid of God. It is so we will clearly see the choice before us, and understand that God is true to His word. He will chop down the fruitless tree and cast it into the fire. He will purify all our alloys in the fire. And praise God for that, The purifying of our faith is more precious than gold tried in the fire- so, let us buy eyesalve for our eyes and white raiment and gold purified in the fire....according to His council, lest we experience the consequence of ignoring the warning. The warning is merely the trumpet of the coming consequence of our actions, functioning like a tutor, to lead us to Christ where our love is perfected and casts out all fear.


The law lives in the flesh and in the carnal mind as a tutor until it is no longer needed. When it is no longer needed, every unbelieving member has perished in the wilderness, we have entered His rest, having ceased from our own works. The adversaries have been "done away". Now, we walk in "Today, If you hear my voice"... "for all those who are led by the Spirit are the sons of God".

Interestingly enough, the word used for "when that which is perfect is come, that which is imperfect will be "done away/made void"(katargeo) is the same word used in 1 Cor. 15 "The last enemy to be "destroyed/done away/made void" is death; and also Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered(katargeo) from the law, that being dead wherein we were held(having died to our former life); that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

The law and its partner, fear of death, are no longer needed because love is perfected as a person enters 1)the glorious liberty of the sons of god, 2)the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus, 3)"zeal for thine house consumes me", 4)"Behold it is written in the volume of the book of me, 'I come to do Thy will O God'." Jesus warns of the consequence of refusing to be perfected in love. The wise heed the warning and live. The foolish ignore it to their peril in this life (and for some,IMO, the next-altho I know where you stand on that issue Willie :o)

My point being that if you are outside the newness of the Spirit and still alive unto the flesh....whether flesh as religion/law or flesh as lust of the flesh/pleasures of the mind you will not be perfected in love and you will have fear and fear has torment. That torment is a testimony that we are immature in love. "I pray that you may be one that your joy may be full". Righteousness, peace, joy in the Holy Ghost. So we are all(IMO) in measure by measure, with ever-increasing glory, from glory to glory as we behold Him, growing into perfection- that perfection being in love. We can tell how far we have to go by the degree in which fear(and partners anger, pride, lust etc) hold sway in our lives DAY BY DAY. Peace, being the fruit of righteousness,  standing by grace through faith in the love of God DECLARES OUR DELIVERANCE AND OUR VICTORY without the necessity of words, in the fulness of JOY. The dawn growing unto the full day. Thats why sons are peacemakers. Thats why the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown IN PEACE by them that make peace, so, peace brothers, John

He that believes in me has passed from death into life.

I think most people have missed the point that I was making.

You say fear is not a part of the gospel, ok, but that is not what I was talking about.

Should you fear or not fear willfully sinning against God when you would go and do something knowing full well you were not supposed to?

There is a percentage of people that act like nothing they do matters because of the wondeful glorious gospel of Jeuss Christ,  I know someone who says they bought crack for a homeless person and think they are doing Gods worlk.

I suppose that doesn't matter a hill of beans?

If that's your gospel, you can have it, because it's a rotten stench.

Perfect love casts out all fear.

God is Love.

There is no fear in God or in Christ.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 28, 2010, 04:27:01 PM



Perfect love casts out all fear.

God is Love.

There is no fear in God or in Christ.

So the guy buying crack for the homeless is doing gods work and has nothing to fear?

he is serving whom he chooses to serve.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 28, 2010, 05:23:05 PM



he is serving whom he chooses to serve.

So it really makes no difference?

Just so that people are aware,  the example of the guy buying crack for the homeless is not hypothetical, this is a pastor of a church and a vocal Christian Universalist at least on the internet anyway.   This pastor brags that he never has to make any of his stories up, that they are all true.

So, it doesn't matter a hill of beans eh?

it's just whatever?

Matthew 8:18-20: "When Jesus saw the crowd around him, he gave orders to cross to the other side of the lake. Then a teacher of the law came to him and said, 'Teacher, I will follow you hwerever you go.'
"Jesus replied, 'Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.'

"Another disciple said to him, 'Lord, first let me go and bury my father.'

"But Jesus told him, 'Follow me, and let the dead bury the dead.'"



Luke 9:59-62
And he said unto another, Follow me.
But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.

Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

And another also said, Lord, I will follow thee; but let me first go bid them farewell, which are at home at my house.

And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 28, 2010, 05:50:54 PM



Matthew 8:18-20: "When Jesus saw the crowd around him, he gave orders to cross to the other side of the lake. Then a teacher of the law came to him and said, 'Teacher, I will follow you hwerever you go.'
"Jesus replied, 'Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.'

"Another disciple said to him, 'Lord, first let me go and bury my father.'

"But Jesus told him, 'Follow me, and let the dead bury the dead.'"



Luke 9:59-62
And he said unto another, Follow me.
But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.

Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

And another also said, Lord, I will follow thee; but let me first go bid them farewell, which are at home at my house.

And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

So you've established that the scriptures tell you to not care about it.  ok, gotcha.


Mt 23:33  "Serpents! Progeny of vipers! How may you be fleeing from the judging of *Gehenna?


Good luck in your apathy.

And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.


I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 28, 2010, 06:52:26 PM



And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.


I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you.

Well, since you have nothing to fear, then it won't matter when you get trampled.

I learn obedience from what I suffer.
If I obey His commands, I will remain in His love, just as Jesus obeyed His Father's commands.

The Gospel should not be abused as a license to sin.  To tempt the Lord your God is a sin, and he is our Father, to willingly do evil, or have poor behaviour so that grace might abound is a wicked thing that shows a wicked heart.

Sin brings fear, it was after the disobedience of Adam that they both ran away from God and hid themselves out of fear.

We should certainly fear the chastisement of the Lord when we are unrepentant, lukewarm, unloving, and sinful "saints" before the eyes of the righteous and holy God.  God wants noble priests, royal kings, good stewards, and legitimate sons who will worship in Spirit, Truth, and Love - not bastard children full of rebellion thinking that God won't deal with flagrant, blatant, known acts of sin.

Sin still exists, even if Grace covers it all.  But Grace is not Grace if the rapist tears through the flowers of fifty little girls while shaking his fist at God and doesn't reap what he has sown, Grace is not Grace if God winks an eye at the drug dealer introducing a playground to heroine, Grace is not Grace if housebreakers ply their wares and break families apart through divorce, lies, and theft.  They might not get the death penalty by fire, they might not be eternally damned by it, but they WILL be purified by the Lord our God who is THE All consuming fire!

And the eyes of a Holy God who is against your actions, and has come to chastise you is a fearful thing.  We fear the chastisement of our earthly parents when they punish us for doing wrong things, even though it is certainly done out of Love - the rod of God's remedial judgements are likewise fearful, yet twice loving.

God did not give us a lazy gospel, he expects us to work out our salvation with Him - not that works save us, but that if we are indeed claiming to be first fruits, we'd better act like it, and act like it through and by the grace and power of God who has shown us such loving kindness and mercy.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 28, 2010, 07:21:20 PM


I learn obedience from what I suffer.
If I obey His commands, I will remain in His love, just as Jesus obeyed His Father's commands.

Too bad you have not learned yet.

I find it interesting that some take such an apathetic view to the issues that God has told us about.   To this pastor that may think he is doing Gods work by enabling someone with a crack addiction,  somehow this buffoon has twisted love and caring into thinking that easing a persons immediate pain by giving them a fix and certainly doing less to change the mans life on earth is righteous.  In reality he has not really loved his neighbor and has only puffed himself up in his own eyes and of those who revel in the wonder this man portrays himself to be.

But this teaching that nothing really matters because you can be a fool and just quote some verses from scripture and makes what you have done just go away is getting more ridiculous by the day. 

Maybe Jesus should have had sex with the prostitute, I mean, why not give her a fix, make her feel at ease with her life,  I mean what better a gift than the son of God boinking a prostitute to show his  L O V E for her.

No, he told her to go sin no more.

The example Jesus gave us shows how corrupt this nonsense is.  Jesus didn't sit back against a nice smooth sand dune and go, oh, I will learn from suffering, isn't that nice.   

No, in fact, of all of his time on earth,  of all his healing, of all his miracles, even the specific instructions that he gave on what way to pray, Jesus prayed the most gut wrenching and absolutely intense prayer he had ever made to AVOID suffering.

I know God is love, but when Jesus, the son of God, the most high prayes to avoid something,  I gaurantee you,  I will pay attention. 

But of course, hey, nothing really matters...  yep, I felt that way once and I was mentally ill, it is not of God, lest you be deceived.   Oh wait, that don't matter either.

Quote
I think most people have missed the point that I was making.

You say fear is not a part of the gospel, ok, but that is not what I was talking about.

Should you fear or not fear willfully sinning against God when you would go and do something knowing full well you were not supposed to?

There is a percentage of people that act like nothing they do matters because of the wondeful glorious gospel of Jeuss Christ,  I know someone who says they bought crack for a homeless person and think they are doing Gods worlk.

I suppose that doesn't matter a hill of beans?

If that's your gospel, you can have it, because it's a rotten stench.

I don't think I wrote anything in my post that integrates with that response, so I don't no why you included my quote, unless you didn t really read it. My points are 1) the gospel sets us free from fear 2) fear is the result of walking in the flesh 3) righteousness is the result of growing in grace 4) being perfected in love is the cure to fear, anger, pride, lust,etc.  Jesus warned the Pharisees to flee the wrath to come and to beware the fires of Gehenna.... they were the ones tying heavy loads on mens backs. Those who use grace as a license to sin are walking in the flesh, and the consequences of that are terrible- as are the consequences of walking in dead religion and the law. Defining fear as awe and reverence, and clearly understanding the severity of the consequence of rebellion- as opposed to horror, terror, etc. is an important distinction, IMO, and thats the only reason I posted.

On that I agree Eaglesway, fear of the Lord is reverence.

My post I made specifically to point out that apathy is hideous in the sight of God, because apathy is a quick way into wickedness.  The apathetic don't put forth any effort in walking, they just lay down and expect a lazy gospel to take effect - alas there is a lion behind them and they're about to get their necks broken in his jaws.

Just to clarify.

Daniel was not alone in the lion's den.

willieH: Hi Paul...  :cloud9:

It is become apparent that you shall not learn something new here, which is what is ORDAINED, and certainly fine with me... but that you will not, does not mean that others cannot benefit...

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on October 28, 2010, 03:58:18 PM
I think most people have missed the point that I was making.

You say fear is not a part of the gospel, ok, but that is not what I was talking about.

Should you fear or not fear willfully sinning against God when you would go and do something knowing full well you were not supposed to?

Really? ...Did DAVID know the truth of YHVH as he sent Bathsheba's husband to the "front" to die?  Was it an act of his "will" to do these things?  Sending a man to DIE so that he could have that man's wife?  Come on, Paul...

Is there a SIN which is not done "willfully"?  If so, which one, Paul?  One that you are "unaware" of doing (so you "did" it "unwillfully")? 

What is John saying in 1 John 1:7-9?  If we are making CONFESSION of SIN and that we HAVE SIN... then we must needs be AWARE of that which we did!  Otherwise, how may we CONFESS it? 

If the "sin" was done outside of our knowledge (unknowingly aside from the "will" which decided to "do it"), how may we make a CONFESSION of it, when we don't even KNOW we "DID IT"?  No offense, but that is ridiculous thinking IMO.

"Lord, I confess my sin of which I am unaware"?   :wacko2:  How may a heart, truly come to center upon the foundation of such meaningless words?  How may we find true heartfelt regret within such a "confession"?

How about the Apostle PAUL, brother Hazelwood?  ...was HE unaware of the "things he did not want to DO but ...DID"? -- Rom 7:15 -- Are you thinking the Apostle PAUL was unaware of these things he DETESTED "doing"?  Please!  :rolleye:  How could he DETEST them, when he didn't even KNOW what they were, ...or that he even DID them?  :dunno:

And what of this, Paul?

2 Cor 5:19 -- to wit that ...GOD... was IN CHRIST, reconciling the WORLD unto Himself... NOT IMPUTING their TRESPASSES [sin] UNTO THEM, and hath committed unto US the WORD of RECONCILIATION...

To discover Spiritual meaning in the Holy texts... we must use them in conjunction with one another -- Isaiah 28:10 & 13 --- So one text of itself, cannot stand alone as a testimony of itself... it must be harmonized elsewhere, using REASON in the process -- Isaiah 1:18 -- Acts 17:2  :dontknow:

This Scripture (2 Cor 5:19) in conjunction with others, is saying (as I see it):

(1) --- The WORD of RECONCILIATION that is to be TAUGHT to others is THIS:  GOD was IN CHRIST, reconciling the WORLD unto Himself... NOT IMPUTING their TRESPASSES [sin] UNTO THEM

(2) --- There is NO FEAR of GOD to be found in the believer... for LOVE casts out FEAR -- 1 John 4:18 -- via the presentation of the  message of the GOSPEL which speaks of GOD in CHRIST, RECONCILING the WORLD, ...NOT IMPUTING the trespasses of MEN in the process of that reconciliation.

(3) --- That you shall REAP what you SOW -- Gal 6:8 -- and that SOWING unto the flesh shall bring JUDMGENT and WRATH to the doer NOW -- Rom 1:18 -- which is NOT to FEAR (be afraid of) GOD,  ...but to be cognizant that the decisions made will either bring BLESSING as they are aligned with the SPIRIT or CORRUPTION (consequence) as they are aligned with the FLESH.

It is THIS that Heb 10:26  is conveying...

We are AMIDST GOD NOW -- Acts 17:28 -- and HE is a CONSUMING FIRE -- Heb 12:29 -- which is IN the process of that "CONSUMING" -- 1 Cor 3:11-15 -- Mark 9:49

As the deeds of men are done in SIN... the CORRUPTION which is BORN of it... will prevail IN the FLESH, NOW (during the EARTHLY lifetime of the individual)  It is NOT in some "afterlife" that this takes place... rather it is IN THIS LIFE, ...NOW... as CHRIST clearly testified -- John 12:31 as did His Apostles -- Rom 1:18 -- the WRATH of GOD ...IS... revealed... not "will be".

The resurrection is not a moment in which PAIN and TORMENT shall be inflicted upon men for SIN... rather it is the REVELATION of ALL in ALL that shall take place in it, ...and IN that REVELATION shall ALL know of ALL, as they KNOW as they are KNOWN (which is completely)... This shall bring great SHAME upon many -- Rev 3:18 -- which shall exact their TEARS (of regret)... which GOD shall (LOVINGLY) DRY -- Rev 20:4

JESUS IS the "RESURRECTION" -- John 11:25 -- those who RISE (which is ALL), ...rise IN HIM...  :dontknow:  Be it the 1st RESURRECTION or the 2nd RESURRECTION.  Those who "rise" in this life... shall gain the clothing of CHRIST which covers the appearance of SIN -- Rev 3:18

MEN ...KNOW NOT what they "DO", Paul -- Luke 23:34 -- Jer 10:23 -- Prov 20:24 -- Prov 21:1 -- Prov 16:1 & 9

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on October 28, 2010, 03:58:18 PM
There is a percentage of people that act like nothing they do matters because of the wondeful glorious gospel of Jeuss Christ,  I know someone who says they bought crack for a homeless person and think they are doing Gods worlk.

Maybe there are such "believers"... I have not encountered any.  All believers that I have come to know, are VERY concerned about what they "DO"... hoping to please GOD in what they "DO"... not carelessly rummaging through their lives wrecklessly... but seeking to overcome in any area of weakness, seeking the STRENGTH of GOD to guide them past it, and OUT of it.

I do not think anyone here believes anything like this, ...it is nothing but your uninformed assumption.  Those who truly believe in CHRIST shall not give "crack" to a homeless person, thinking to do "God's work"... get real...  Maybe you know of such a person, ...but that FOOLISHNESS, is not transferrable to those who are here @ Tentmaker.

Also... those who truly believe in YHVH and His Son... serve Him out of LOVE, not FEAR (being afraid of Him).  Without thought of reward, but doing RIGHT because GOD says in His WORD, that it is RIGHT to do it, no other reason is necessary.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on October 28, 2010, 03:58:18 PM
I suppose that doesn't matter a hill of beans?

I have never seen a "hill of beans"...  :laughing7:  You indeed have your own individual experience... but cannot and should not, deduce others according to YOUR experience... for you have no KNOWLEDGE of the experience of the one you might think to conclude.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on October 28, 2010, 03:58:18 PMIf that's your gospel, you can have it, because it's a rotten stench.

You are welcome to your opinion, which is all that it is...  :dontknow:  No one has "their own gospel"... not even YOU.

For the GOSPEL is not according to P. Hazelwood or willieH or Eaglesway or Jabcat, ...but according to the WORD of GOD... (which you have not employed in this post.)  :sigh:

Quote from: willieH on October 28, 2010, 09:57:20 PM
willieH: Hi Paul...  :cloud9:

It is become apparent that you shall not learn something new here, which is what is ORDAINED, and certainly fine with me... but that you will not, does not mean that others cannot benefit...

If that is ordained then you shall be content with any responce I or anyone else gives and that includes my previous responces.

Thank you for being content with the work of the lard.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on October 28, 2010, 04:40:22 PM

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 28, 2010, 04:27:01 PM
Perfect love casts out all fear.

God is Love.

There is no fear in God or in Christ.

So the guy buying crack for the homeless is doing gods work and has nothing to fear?

Matt 7:22-23 --- MANY will say unto Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful WORKS? ...And then will I profess unto them, I ...NEVER KNEW YOU, ...depart from Me, ye that work iniquity

Many will be thinking to be and claiming to be, "coming in the name of CHRIST"... and "doing" all the wrong things...  :dontknow:

This particular "pastor" (certainly a loosely given title)... is amidst his own "brand of deception"...  There are many "cultish" leaders and groupings that exist, ...which think and CLAIM, that they are doing the work of God, yet are really only serving themselves, and their own individual agendas.

As well, there are MILLIONS (even BILLIONS) of Christian "believers" that bring the deception of HELL to the unbelieving WORLD in the "name" of God,  ...which in its own way is EVERY BIT as poisonous as this "pastor" giving the homeless person drugs in the "name" of God.  :sigh:

QuoteReally? ...Did DAVID know the truth of YHVH as he sent Bathsheba's husband to the "front" to die?  Was it an act of his "will" to do these things?  Sending a man to DIE so that he could have that man's wife?  Come on, Paul...

Yes, this was David's will.  And David lost a son for it too.

QuoteIf the "sin" was done outside of our knowledge (unknowingly aside from the "will" which decided to "do it"), how may we make a CONFESSION of it, when we don't even KNOW we "DID IT"?  No offense, but that is ridiculous thinking IMO.

The Holy Spirit is a pretty smart ol' chap.  And his eyes are sharp too.  He convicts us of what we don't know, and brings to rememberence things to confess, and repent of.

And that as they say, answers that question.

You really should give God the Spirit alot more credit than that WillieH. :/

Quote from: willieH on October 28, 2010, 09:57:20 PM
  You indeed have your own individual experience... but cannot and should not, deduce others according to YOUR experience... for you have no KNOWLEDGE of the experience of the one you might think to conclude.

Yet, you conclude that I SHALL NOT learn something new here.   LOL, I have learned plenty and simply because it does not agree with what you believe does not mean a thing concerning what I learn or don't learn.

Yes indeed, others can greatly benefit from your posts, and sometimes it will be to not believe as you do.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on October 28, 2010, 10:01:40 PM

Quote from: willieH on October 28, 2010, 09:57:20 PM
willieH: Hi Paul...  :cloud9:

It is become apparent that you shall not learn something new here, which is what is ORDAINED, and certainly fine with me... but that you will not, does not mean that others cannot benefit...

If that is ordained then you shall be content with any responce I or anyone else gives and that includes my previous responces.

Thank you for being content with the work of the lard.

EVERYTHING that you and I do and say in this thread, was DECLARED to be manifest... by GOD, ...looooooong before we "did and said" any of these things... and YES... I am very content.  :boogie:

But acknowledge with RESPECT at all times... the work of the LORD (not "lard")  :thumbdown:

FYI... I have NO agenda to change you or your beliefs in any way.  And yet, reserve the right to oppose those beliefs as it is ORDAINED that I do...  :dontknow:

You are welcome believe any imagination your mind can produce, it is fine with me.  :thumbsup:  But as those imaginations appear on this board (and God has made me aware of them), they will be OPPOSED if they are not in line with the WORD.  That does not mean I shall follow you around for it is not about YOU.

It is not my work that I do, it is His as He has DECLARED all that I shall do and say...  as well, He shall make me aware of the places and threads in which He decides I shall be a participant. :nod:  Without regard to your presence or absence.

QuoteEVERYTHING that you and I do and say in this thread, was DECLARED to be manifest... by GOD, ...looooooong before we "did and said" any of these things... and YES... I am very content.  :boogie:

Lets apply this shall we? :D  Here goes!  *quotes and posts*

QuoteBut acknowledge with RESPECT at all times... the work of the LORD (not "lard")  :thumbdown:

God made Paul put Lard, not Lord, so don't argue with God.  It was ordained that way.  But then again it was ordained for you to argue with God, and so God made you argue with God who made Paul put lard instead or lord.

QuoteFYI... I have NO agenda to change you or your beliefs in any way.  And yet, reserve the right to oppose those beliefs as it is ORDAINED that I do...  :dontknow:

Of course not, because God made Paul oppose your beliefs which God made you have, and ordained you to have.  In essence, God ordained Paul to believe A, and ordained you to believe B, and ordained you to argue over A, and B, and made you believe, and do all of these things entirely against your say so in any of the matter.  So basically...its all God's fault that you and he believe differently, and so basically, Paul is correct, and absolutely right, because God can't lie, and God made him do it.

Paul is 100% correct in everything he believes, and does, and so are you, because God did it, made you guys do it, and ordained you to do do it, even if your beliefs are incompatible and thus you two are arguing over it...albeit against your will being ordained to argue, God having made you do it.

QuoteYou are welcome believe any imagination your mind can produce, it is fine with me.  :thumbsup:  But as those imaginations appear on this board (and God has made me aware of them), they will be OPPOSED if they are not in line with the WORD.  That does not mean I shall follow you around for it is not about YOU.

He's not "welcome" to "believe any imagination" his mind can produce, because God doesn't give him any say so!  God ordained it all, and made him believe it.  Just like you.  They aren't opposed to God's will at all!  And so his beliefs are 100% true - because God ordained them to be so.  God can't lie, not in action, word, or deed, and anything done by his will is not an untruth, or lie.

QuoteIt is not my work that I do, it is His as He has DECLARED all that I shall do and say...  as well, He shall make me aware of the places and threads in which He decides I shall be a participant. :nod:  Without regard to your presence or absence.

But it has everything to do with his presence and absence, because Paul is perfectly right!  You'd better be ordained to listen to what God has ordained to happen through Paul, because according to you, what Paul is saying is ordained of the Lord to be done, and hence is the Word of God being made manifest!

....Kinda puts an awkward spin on things...doesn't it?

Then again, I've been ordained to post this whole post, and it is the word of God, 100% correct, and unarguable, and perfect, and if you argue against it, it is only because God has ordained for you to argue against it, and so in essence the word of God is arguing with the word of God, or more accurately; The Ordinance of God is arguing against The Ordinance of God...an ordinance being something that has been "ordained"...

But wait!...

If anything of God is arguing against anything of God, especially if the Ordinance of God is arguing against the Ordinance of God...Then that means that God is a divided mind and a divided house!

That can't be right...Because that is completely impossible.

willieH: Hi Lefein...  :happygrin:

Quote from: willieHReally? ...Did DAVID know the truth of YHVH as he sent Bathsheba's husband to the "front" to die?  Was it an act of his "will" to do these things?  Sending a man to DIE so that he could have that man's wife?  Come on, Paul...

Quote from: Lefein on October 28, 2010, 10:14:22 PM
Yes, this was David's will.  And David lost a son for it too.

Thanks, Lefein...

You admit that David KNEW the TRUTH, and that he WILLFULLY SINNED...

The loss of a son, ...REAPING and SOWING... IN THIS LIFE... :dontknow:

Quote from: willieHIf the "sin" was done outside of our knowledge (unknowingly aside from the "will" which decided to "do it"), how may we make a CONFESSION of it, when we don't even KNOW we "DID IT"?  No offense, but that is ridiculous thinking IMO.

Quote from: Lefein on October 28, 2010, 10:14:22 PMThe Holy Spirit is a pretty smart ol' chap.  And his eyes are sharp too.  He convicts us of what we don't know, and brings to rememberence things to confess, and repent of.

And that as they say, answers that question.

hmmm... don't be in such a hurry to pat yourself on the back.  :laughing7:   you almost answered the question...

What about the Apostle Paul, lefein?  -- Rom 7:15 -- Did he "hate" things he wasn't even aware that he DID?   :Whistle:

Quote from: Lefein on October 28, 2010, 10:14:22 PM
You really should give God the Spirit alot more credit than that willieH. :/

There is no such thing as "God the Spirit"... GOD is SPIRIT...

It is not up to you to decide the respect and credit that  >>I GIVE<<  unto YHVH

I hold YHVH in the HIGHEST esteem... and RESPECT...  :bowing: YHVH

Quote from: willieH on October 28, 2010, 10:21:03 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on October 28, 2010, 10:01:40 PM

Quote from: willieH on October 28, 2010, 09:57:20 PM
willieH: Hi Paul...  :cloud9:

It is become apparent that you shall not learn something new here, which is what is ORDAINED, and certainly fine with me... but that you will not, does not mean that others cannot benefit...

If that is ordained then you shall be content with any responce I or anyone else gives and that includes my previous responces.

Thank you for being content with the work of the lard.

EVERYTHING that you and I do and say in this thread, was DECLARED to be manifest... by GOD, ...looooooong before we "did and said" any of these things... and YES... I am very content.  :boogie:

But acknowledge with RESPECT at all times... the work of the LORD (not "lard")  :thumbdown:

FYI... I have NO agenda to change you or your beliefs in any way.  And yet, reserve the right to oppose those beliefs as it is ORDAINED that I do...  :dontknow:

You are welcome believe any imagination your mind can produce, it is fine with me.  :thumbsup:  But as those imaginations appear on this board (and God has made me aware of them), they will be OPPOSED if they are not in line with the WORD.  That does not mean I shall follow you around for it is not about YOU.

It is not my work that I do, it is His as He has DECLARED all that I shall do and say...  as well, He shall make me aware of the places and threads in which He decides I shall be a participant. :nod:  Without regard to your presence or absence.

...willieH  :cloud9:

Actually you manifest one of the worst kinds of spiritual evil, you pretend that all you do and all you say is not you Willieh but  it is the work of the lard, that you only are decreeing what God intended for you to say. 

You make a conclusion about me and whether I shall learn or not and then cast aside your own responsibilities for what you say and say that it is merely God who has caused you to say that and therefore it is good.

I grew up in that spiritual prison, being told as a youngster that since a man declaring his spiritual fruits as ordained by God then I must listen and agree and believe what he says. 

What evil that was and nothing has changed, just because you come in the cloak of All men saved does not mean you will not reap the fruits of your destructive nonsense. 

Quotehmmm... don't be in such a hurry to pat yourself on the back.  :laughing7:   you almost answered the question...

What about the Apostle Paul, lefein?  -- Rom 7:15 -- Did he "hate" things he wasn't even aware that he DID?   :Whistle:

I'm not patting myself on the back, I can't, it was ordained by God for me to say what I said, nothing else, I had no say in the matter, it was 100% God.  :dontknow:

Doesn't matter anyway about the Apostle Paul, because what I said is a matter of fact; The Holy Spirit convicts, and brings to remembrance the things we don't know about.

QuoteThere is no such thing as "God the Spirit"... GOD is SPIRIT...

It is not up to you to decide the respect and credit that  >>I GIVE<<  unto YHVH

God ordained for me to say it, it wasn't me who said "God the Spirit" God did, it was 100% God through me who said God the Spirit.  So I'm not wrong, what I said is completely, perfectly 100% infallible, because what God says through me, by ordaining me to say it, is 100% perfect, because God said it, and he is infallible, and perfect.

QuoteI hold YHVH in the HIGHEST esteem... and RESPECT...  :bowing: YHVH

...willieH  :cloud9:

No you don't.  You take his name and will in vain constantly.  I was ordained to say that by the way, and if you have a problem with it  take it up with the perfect God, not me, because it wasn't me who said it, it was God, and only God, and 100% God, I had no say in the matter, I just posted what he told me to post, being ordained to post it.  And so it is God saying you don't take him in high esteem, not me.

Fear and Horror

willieH: Hi Lefein...  :winkgrin:

I am not so sure that you and I should engage in conversation directly... but since you quoted my post, I believe I have the right to reply to it...  :dontknow:

Btw... are you getting a headache by conversing with me?  Or maybe you are getting used to me, ...but if not, ...isn't that self destructive, and contradictory behavior?  :dontknow:

Quote from: willieHEVERYTHING that you and I do and say in this thread, was DECLARED to be manifest... by GOD, ...looooooong before we "did and said" any of these things... and YES... I am very content.  :boogie:

Quote from: Lefein on October 28, 2010, 10:32:33 PMLets apply this shall we? :D  Here goes!  *quotes and posts*

Okay, ...but remember... you put the pot on the stove...  :laughing7:

Quote from: willieHBut acknowledge with RESPECT at all times... the work of the LORD (not "lard")  :thumbdown:

Quote from: Lefein on October 28, 2010, 10:32:33 PMGod made Paul put Lard, not Lord, so don't argue with God.

What makes you think I am arguing with God?  I am following the pathway that He designated I walk... how about you?  Or are YOU your own creator?  :laughing7:

God did not MAKE Paul do anything... PAUL did as was DECLARED he would DO... as did I... That DISRESPECT is DECLARED to be prevalent in this world toward YHVH and Paul noted said disrespect, does not mean it should not be OPPOSED... and whenever it IS OPPOSED, ...that OPPOSITION has also been DECLARED...  :grin:

Quote from: Lefein on October 28, 2010, 10:32:33 PMIt was ordained that way.  But then again it was ordained for you to argue with God, and so God made you argue with God who made Paul put lard instead or lord.

cute...  :laughing7:  But still stumbling over the same ROCK...  :laughing7:

I do not argue with GOD... I do as He has already DECLARED that I do... I observe myself as a PART in the display of the Revelation of the WORD of YHVH which contains the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL... In that Revelation, Paul will DISRESPECT God in his post (evil), and I shall OPPOSE that DISRESPECT (good)... both of which are originated and find SOURCE in the DECLARATION of both Paul and myself.

Quote from: willieHFYI... I have NO agenda to change you or your beliefs in any way.  And yet, reserve the right to oppose those beliefs as it is ORDAINED that I do...  :dontknow:

Quote from: Lefein on October 28, 2010, 10:32:33 PMOf course not, because God made Paul oppose your beliefs which God made you have, and ordained you to have.

Just a redundant proposition already covered.  I am ORDAINED to OPPOSE Paul (as well as you), in this thread... as well, You are ORDAINED (as well as Paul) to OPPOSE me.

Quote from: Lefein on October 28, 2010, 10:32:33 PM
In essence, God ordained Paul to believe A, and ordained you to believe B, and ordained you to argue over A, and B, and made you believe, and do all of these things entirely against your say so in any of the matter.  So basically...its all God's fault that you and he believe differently, and so basically, Paul is correct, and absolutely right, because God can't lie, and God made him do it.

Both GOOD and EVIL exist in the proposition of the KNOWLEDGE of GOD...  Which contains all NEGATIVE and POSITIVE aspects that can possibly be conveyed...

GOD does not LIE, but is the creator of ALL PRINCIPALITIES one of which is the FALSE witness...  In conveying TRUTH which is emergent from HIM... False Witness is by default the other side of the KNOWLEDGE... For it is NOTED in the WORD to be existent... and ALL THINGS which exist, are MADE by Him -- John 1:3 -- Col 1:16 --  :Sparkletooth:

Quote from: Lefein on October 28, 2010, 10:32:33 PM
Paul is 100% correct in everything he believes, and does, and so are you, because God did it, made you guys do it, and ordained you to do do it, even if your beliefs are incompatible and thus you two are arguing over it...albeit against your will being ordained to argue, God having made you do it.

The biggest hurdle which impedes you, is yourself.  Needing multiple repetitions of the same premise, yet refusing to hear them every time, and because you do not hear, you repeat...  :sigh:

God did not MAKE Paul and I do anything... He DECLARED that we would DO what we DO... for His WORD, which is utilized in that DECLARATION, is TRUTH... and that IN the DECLARATION of things which were NOT YET DONE -- Isiaiah 46:10 -- was Paul's disrespect, and my opposition of that disrespect.  The members of the BODY do not make the CALL as to the "doings" of the BODY, ...the HEAD decides... Which it DID, and so the members being SERVANTS of the HEAD, ...respond accordingly... You do it everyday, don't you?  Are your fingers DECIDING your replies to me, Lefein?   :laugh:

You are more than welcome to your vision of surrounding reality lefein, and far be it from me to wish to change it. 

GOD is creator of ALL THINGS, ...and in making "UP" exist, it was necessary and within HIS WISDOM that DOWN exist as well, to point this truth out to us.  :laughing7:  For without DOWN, there is no "UP"... The very same principle works in the case of YOU versus ME...  :laughing7:

Nothing is EVIL of itself... it is the esteeming done within the hearts which are CONCLUDED in UNBELIEF which is the foundation of WICKEDNESS that manifest it.

Quote from: willieHYou are welcome believe any imagination your mind can produce, it is fine with me.  :thumbsup:  But as those imaginations appear on this board (and God has made me aware of them), they will be OPPOSED if they are not in line with the WORD.  That does not mean I shall follow you around for it is not about YOU.

Quote from: Lefein on October 28, 2010, 10:32:33 PMHe's not "welcome" to "believe any imagination" his mind can produce, because God doesn't give him any say so!

In each proposition you are doing nothing but repeating yourself... It surprises me that you cannot recognize this stuttering of your mind.

Because the Arms do not decide that which they do, does not mean that they do not exist, nor does it mean they have no purpose, nor does it not mean that that DO not "DO" anything...

They are subject to the agenda of the HEAD which purposes the members of the BODY to cooperate in the service of ALL to ALL...

That PAUL produces imaginations is declared to be so... and his mind which was created by GOD, still operates irregardless of PAUL (or you for that matter) acknowledging the actual SOURCE of his doings -- Rom 9:16-20 -- Prov 21:1 -- That the KING's Heart is shapen of GOD, does not mean that the KING does not exist, nor that the KING does not decide to DO things, it means that the WILL of the KING is following the directives of the DECLARATION of GOD in His doings, whether they appear as GOOD or EVIL... and/or whether they appear as emergent from the finite KING or the eternal GOD within the observation of finites.

ALL power finds its source in YHVH -- Rom 13:1 -- and ALL THINGS made (including decisions for decisions are "made") ...are MADE by the Creator -- John 1:3

The whole project in this world is the teaching given to the BODY, to ELIMINATE SELF...  for SELF is that which is centered upon SELF (evil), and therefore disengaged from being centered upon GOD (good).

QuoteGod ordained it all, and made him believe it.  Just like you.  They aren't opposed to God's will at all!  And so his beliefs are 100% true - because God ordained them to be so.  God can't lie, not in action, word, or deed, and anything done by his will is not an untruth, or lie.

God does not MAKE us DO anything.  We DO as He has already DECLARED we shall DO, because HIS DECLARATION is the TRUTH.

That PAUL (or you for that matter) believes a given fallacy, does not make it TRUTH, for TRUTH which is GOD, invented the premise of what FALLACY is... when He DECLARED His WORD as TRUTH.  In DECLARING the existence of FALSE WITNESS, the "false witness" does not become TRUTH, ...the TRUTH declares it for what it IS.

We are players in the REVELATION of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL, which is NOT our knowledge, but is being shared with us, the Children of the MOST HIGH...

GOD does not LIE in the creation and manifestation of EVIL... He DECLARES it as a matter of HIS KNOWLEDGE and that conveyance is done via HIS WORD...  That GOD exists in TRUTH is only established by the existence of LIES, for without the existence of LIES, the TRUTH is meaningless, and stands alone without definition.

If LIES did not exist, then how could anything be called TRUTH?  For whatever words that existed would be unopposed and undefined concerning validity or invalidity.

If LIES did not exist, then I could say "UP is DOWN" or "DARK is LIGHT" or "SMOOTH is ROUGH", none of said statements could be opposed as invalid.  But because TRUTH and LIES both exist... "Up is NOT DOWN", "Dark is NOT LIGHT" and "Smooth is NOT ROUGH"...  :dontknow:

Quote from: willieHIt is not my work that I do, it is His as He has DECLARED all that I shall do and say...  as well, He shall make me aware of the places and threads in which He decides I shall be a participant. :nod:  Without regard to your presence or absence.

Quote from: Lefein on October 28, 2010, 10:32:33 PMBut it has everything to do with his presence and absence, because Paul is perfectly right!  You'd better be ordained to listen to what God has ordained to happen through Paul, because according to you, what Paul is saying is ordained of the Lord to be done, and hence is the Word of God being made manifest!

Whatever... this is just more repetition of the same junk... Keep your mind set on uselessness and uselessness is what shall be your result.

Quote from: Lefein on October 28, 2010, 10:32:33 PM
....Kinda puts an awkward spin on things...doesn't it?

You are what is the "awkward spin", brother...  :laughing7:

Quote from: Lefein on October 28, 2010, 10:32:33 PMThen again, I've been ordained to post this whole post, and it is the word of God, 100% correct, and unarguable, and perfect, and if you argue against it, it is only because God has ordained for you to argue against it, and so in essence the word of God is arguing with the word of God, or more accurately; The Ordinance of God is arguing against The Ordinance of God...an ordinance being something that has been "ordained"...

That is your vision... blinded by itself...  simply the ORDAINING of UP versus DOWN -- both ORDAINED in order to define BOTH...

Quote from: Lefein on October 28, 2010, 10:32:33 PM
But wait!...

If anything of God is arguing against anything of God, especially if the Ordinance of God is arguing against the Ordinance of God...Then that means that God is a divided mind and a divided house!

Of course it does not.  It means that you have decided that YOU need a measure of INDEPENDENCE and CONTROL which is exclusive of Him in order to BE who and what you ARE... So you end up defining yourself, by yourself, instead of defining who and what you are by GOD and His preexistence of you.

Quote from: Lefein on October 28, 2010, 10:32:33 PMThat can't be right...Because that is completely impossible.

What is impossible is you, brother!   :mlaugh:  And so impossibilities often emerge from you... via YOUR own WORDS...

But the WORD of TRUTH says, ...NOTHING is IMPOSSIBLE with God, lefein... or didn't you KNOW that?

Including the "impossible" maze that your mind continually wanders in, confounding yourself...  :laughing7:

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on October 29, 2010, 12:21:16 AM

Quote from: willieH on October 29, 2010, 12:06:20 AM
willieH: Hi Lefein...  :winkgrin:

I am not so sure that you and I should engage in conversation directly... but since you quoted my post, I believe I have the right to reply to it...  :dontknow:

Btw... are you getting a headache by conversing with me?  Or maybe you are getting used to me, ...but if not, ...isn't that self destructive, and contradictory behavior?  :dontknow:

Quote from: willieHEVERYTHING that you and I do and say in this thread, was DECLARED to be manifest... by GOD, ...looooooong before we "did and said" any of these things... and YES... I am very content.  :boogie:

Quote from: Lefein on October 28, 2010, 10:32:33 PMLets apply this shall we? :D  Here goes!  *quotes and posts*

Okay, ...but remember... you put the pot on the stove...  :laughing7:

Quote from: willieHBut acknowledge with RESPECT at all times... the work of the LORD (not "lard")  :thumbdown:

Quote from: Lefein on October 28, 2010, 10:32:33 PMGod made Paul put Lard, not Lord, so don't argue with God.

What makes you think I am arguing with God?  I am following the pathway that He designated I walk... how about you?  Or are YOU your own creator?  :laughing7:

God did not MAKE Paul do anything... PAUL did as was DECLARED he would DO... as did I... That DISRESPECT is DECLARED to be prevalent in this world toward YHVH and Paul noted said disrespect, does not mean it should not be OPPOSED... and whenever it IS OPPOSED, ...that OPPOSITION has also been DECLARED...  :grin:

Quote from: Lefein on October 28, 2010, 10:32:33 PMIt was ordained that way.  But then again it was ordained for you to argue with God, and so God made you argue with God who made Paul put lard instead or lord.

cute...  :laughing7:  But still stumbling over the same ROCK...  :laughing7:

I do not argue with GOD... I do as He has already DECLARED that I do... I observe myself as a PART in the display of the Revelation of the WORD of YHVH which contains the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL... In that Revelation, Paul will DISRESPECT God in his post (evil), and I shall OPPOSE that DISRESPECT (good)... both of which are originated and find SOURCE in the DECLARATION of both Paul and myself.

Quote from: willieHFYI... I have NO agenda to change you or your beliefs in any way.  And yet, reserve the right to oppose those beliefs as it is ORDAINED that I do...  :dontknow:

Quote from: Lefein on October 28, 2010, 10:32:33 PMOf course not, because God made Paul oppose your beliefs which God made you have, and ordained you to have.

Just a redundant proposition already covered.  I am ORDAINED to OPPOSE Paul (as well as you), in this thread... as well, You are ORDAINED (as well as Paul) to OPPOSE me.

Quote from: Lefein on October 28, 2010, 10:32:33 PM
In essence, God ordained Paul to believe A, and ordained you to believe B, and ordained you to argue over A, and B, and made you believe, and do all of these things entirely against your say so in any of the matter.  So basically...its all God's fault that you and he believe differently, and so basically, Paul is correct, and absolutely right, because God can't lie, and God made him do it.

Both GOOD and EVIL exist in the proposition of the KNOWLEDGE of GOD...  Which contains all NEGATIVE and POSITIVE aspects that can possibly be conveyed...

GOD does not LIE, but is the creator of ALL PRINCIPALITIES one of which is the FALSE witness...  In conveying TRUTH which is emergent from HIM... False Witness is by default the other side of the KNOWLEDGE... For it is NOTED in the WORD to be existent... and ALL THINGS which exist, are MADE by Him -- John 1:3 -- Col 1:16 --  :Sparkletooth:

Quote from: Lefein on October 28, 2010, 10:32:33 PM
Paul is 100% correct in everything he believes, and does, and so are you, because God did it, made you guys do it, and ordained you to do do it, even if your beliefs are incompatible and thus you two are arguing over it...albeit against your will being ordained to argue, God having made you do it.

The biggest hurdle which impedes you, is yourself.  Needing multiple repetitions of the same premise, yet refusing to hear them every time, and because you do not hear, you repeat...  :sigh:

God did not MAKE Paul and I do anything... He DECLARED that we would DO what we DO... for His WORD, which is utilized in that DECLARATION, is TRUTH... and that IN the DECLARATION of things which were NOT YET DONE -- Isiaiah 46:10 -- was Paul's disrespect, and my opposition of that disrespect.  The members of the BODY do not make the CALL as to the "doings" of the BODY, ...the HEAD decides... Which it DID, and so the members being SERVANTS of the HEAD, ...respond accordingly... You do it everyday, don't you?  Are your fingers DECIDING your replies to me, Lefein?   :laugh:

You are more than welcome to your vision of surrounding reality lefein, and far be it from me to wish to change it. 

GOD is creator of ALL THINGS, ...and in making "UP" exist, it was necessary and within HIS WISDOM that DOWN exist as well, to point this truth out to us.  :laughing7:  For without DOWN, there is no "UP"... The very same principle works in the case of YOU versus ME...  :laughing7:

Nothing is EVIL of itself... it is the esteeming done within the hearts which are CONCLUDED in UNBELIEF which is the foundation of WICKEDNESS that manifest it.

Quote from: willieHYou are welcome believe any imagination your mind can produce, it is fine with me.  :thumbsup:  But as those imaginations appear on this board (and God has made me aware of them), they will be OPPOSED if they are not in line with the WORD.  That does not mean I shall follow you around for it is not about YOU.

Quote from: Lefein on October 28, 2010, 10:32:33 PMHe's not "welcome" to "believe any imagination" his mind can produce, because God doesn't give him any say so!

In each proposition you are doing nothing but repeating yourself... It surprises me that you cannot recognize this stuttering of your mind.

Because the Arms do not decide that which they do, does not mean that they do not exist, nor does it mean they have no purpose, nor does it not mean that that DO not "DO" anything...

They are subject to the agenda of the HEAD which purposes the members of the BODY to cooperate in the service of ALL to ALL...

That PAUL produces imaginations is declared to be so... and his mind which was created by GOD, still operates irregardless of PAUL (or you for that matter) acknowledging the actual SOURCE of his doings -- Rom 9:16-20 -- Prov 21:1 -- That the KING's Heart is shapen of GOD, does not mean that the KING does not exist, nor that the KING does not decide to DO things, it means that the WILL of the KING is following the directives of the DECLARATION of GOD in His doings, whether they appear as GOOD or EVIL... and/or whether they appear as emergent from the finite KING or the eternal GOD within the observation of finites.

ALL power finds its source in YHVH -- Rom 13:1 -- and ALL THINGS made (including decisions for decisions are "made") ...are MADE by the Creator -- John 1:3

The whole project in this world is the teaching given to the BODY, to ELIMINATE SELF...  for SELF is that which is centered upon SELF (evil), and therefore disengaged from being centered upon GOD (good).

QuoteGod ordained it all, and made him believe it.  Just like you.  They aren't opposed to God's will at all!  And so his beliefs are 100% true - because God ordained them to be so.  God can't lie, not in action, word, or deed, and anything done by his will is not an untruth, or lie.

God does not MAKE us DO anything.  We DO as He has already DECLARED we shall DO, because HIS DECLARATION is the TRUTH.

That PAUL (or you for that matter) believes a given fallacy, does not make it TRUTH, for TRUTH which is GOD, invented the premise of what FALLACY is... when He DECLARED His WORD as TRUTH.  In DECLARING the existence of FALSE WITNESS, the "false witness" does not become TRUTH, ...the TRUTH declares it for what it IS.

We are players in the REVELATION of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL, which is NOT our knowledge, but is being shared with us, the Children of the MOST HIGH...

GOD does not LIE in the creation and manifestation of EVIL... He DECLARES it as a matter of HIS KNOWLEDGE and that conveyance is done via HIS WORD...  That GOD exists in TRUTH is only established by the existence of LIES, for without the existence of LIES, the TRUTH is meaningless, and stands alone without definition.

If LIES did not exist, then how could anything be called TRUTH?  For whatever words that existed would be unopposed and undefined concerning validity or invalidity.

If LIES did not exist, then I could say "UP is DOWN" or "DARK is LIGHT" or "SMOOTH is ROUGH", none of said statements could be opposed as invalid.  But because TRUTH and LIES both exist... "Up is NOT DOWN", "Dark is NOT LIGHT" and "Smooth is NOT ROUGH"...  :dontknow:

Quote from: willieHIt is not my work that I do, it is His as He has DECLARED all that I shall do and say...  as well, He shall make me aware of the places and threads in which He decides I shall be a participant. :nod:  Without regard to your presence or absence.

Quote from: Lefein on October 28, 2010, 10:32:33 PMBut it has everything to do with his presence and absence, because Paul is perfectly right!  You'd better be ordained to listen to what God has ordained to happen through Paul, because according to you, what Paul is saying is ordained of the Lord to be done, and hence is the Word of God being made manifest!

Whatever... this is just more repetition of the same junk... Keep your mind set on uselessness and uselessness is what shall be your result.

Quote from: Lefein on October 28, 2010, 10:32:33 PM
....Kinda puts an awkward spin on things...doesn't it?

You are what is the "awkward spin", brother...  :laughing7:

Quote from: Lefein on October 28, 2010, 10:32:33 PMThen again, I've been ordained to post this whole post, and it is the word of God, 100% correct, and unarguable, and perfect, and if you argue against it, it is only because God has ordained for you to argue against it, and so in essence the word of God is arguing with the word of God, or more accurately; The Ordinance of God is arguing against The Ordinance of God...an ordinance being something that has been "ordained"...

That is your vision... blinded by itself...  simply the ORDAINING of UP versus DOWN -- both ORDAINED in order to define BOTH...

Quote from: Lefein on October 28, 2010, 10:32:33 PM
But wait!...

If anything of God is arguing against anything of God, especially if the Ordinance of God is arguing against the Ordinance of God...Then that means that God is a divided mind and a divided house!

Of course it does not.  It means that you have decided that YOU need a measure of INDEPENDENCE and CONTROL which is exclusive of Him in order to BE who and what you ARE... So you end up defining yourself, by yourself, instead of defining who and what you are by GOD and His preexistence of you.

Quote from: Lefein on October 28, 2010, 10:32:33 PMThat can't be right...Because that is completely impossible.

What is impossible is you, brother!   :mlaugh:  And so impossibilities often emerge from you... via YOUR own WORDS...

But the WORD of TRUTH says, ...NOTHING is IMPOSSIBLE with God, lefein... or didn't you KNOW that?

Including the "impossible" maze that your mind continually wanders in, confounding yourself...  :laughing7:

...willieH  :happygrin:

What a bunch of hookey gobeldygook.   You are just a jerk who uses Gods name to defend it.

A bunch of what?

nonsense

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 29, 2010, 12:30:46 AM


A bunch of what?

Yeah, exactly.

willieH: Hello PH...  :sigh:

This is a pretty condescending post, and though I am answering it, I will report it to the mods...

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on October 28, 2010, 10:43:28 PMActually you manifest one of the worst kinds of spiritual evil, you pretend that all you do and all you say is not you Willieh but  it is the work of the lard, that you only are decreeing what God intended for you to say.

FIRST --- I quote the Scriptures which support my thinking, more often than not, ...you do not.  Here is one of many verses which speak of my thinking:

Prov 20:24 --- MAN's [Paul Hazelwood] ...GOINGS... are OF YHVH... How can a MAN [Paul Hazelwood] then UNDERSTAND, ...his OWN WAY?

SECOND --- You say accusingly (for which I forgive you  :friendstu:) ...that I am "manifesting one of the worst kinds of spiritual evil"... Who are YOU to judge me?  I am sincere in what I believe and have provided SCRIPTURAL foundation for those beliefs...

THIRD --- Maybe you are your own source...  but I am NOT emergent of myself... I am emergent of YHVH, FOREKNOWN of Him completely and to the detail, ...and therefore acknowledge that HE is my source, and the POWER which made me who, what, where, and when, ...I am. 

If I walk in righteousness it has been ORDAINED by HIM, that I do so -- Eph 2:10 -- which by default means the same is found in OPPOSITE connotation... If I do NOT walk in righteousness, it is ORDAINED that I do not (for I am disincluded in the ORDAINATION of those who walk in it)...  You are welcome to esteem yourself in  what ever way you might... This is where I am at... and it is not up to you to JUDGE my position... that is left to the one WORTHY to JUDGE... which "ONE" ...YOU are not.  :thumbdown:

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on October 28, 2010, 10:43:28 PMYou make a conclusion about me and whether I shall learn or not and then cast aside your own responsibilities for what you say and say that it is merely God who has caused you to say that and therefore it is good.

No conclusion is made of YOU by me... I apologize if that is the way you (and it appears you have) taken it.

But having conversed with you several times in the past, as welll as in this thread, ...it has been rare when our viewpoints coincided... And so I stated that which I stated, hoping there might be others that would gain from the words I offered, but as always, leaving them to GOD to decide to use or not use them... concerning anyone.

You shall not learn of me and my words, Paul... I did not say you shall not learn at all...

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on October 28, 2010, 10:43:28 PMI grew up in that spiritual prison, being told as a youngster that since a man declaring his spiritual fruits as ordained by God then I must listen and agree and believe what he says.

I have not attempted to force feed you anything... No demands have come forth from me that YOU believe what I say... :rolleye:  Nor have I declared my words as "spiritual fruits"... those are terms emerging from YOU, not me.

You overestimate my concern over your beliefs or your course. 

If anything, I offer words in this thread in hopes to help others... you lash out often when opposition is made of your beliefs... putting me in a "spiritual prison", as if YOU are the designated authority.  Give me a break, Warden Hazelwood.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on October 28, 2010, 10:43:28 PMWhat evil that was and nothing has changed, just because you come in the cloak of All men saved does not mean you will not reap the fruits of your destructive nonsense.

Now you resort to further name calling.  First designating me as manifesting the "worst kind of spiritual evil"...  then putting me in "spiritual prison"... now you name what I believe as, "destructive nonsense"...

How belittling of yourself to do these things Paul... We are discussing.  And if we are true believers, we shall LOVE one another, as we discuss... not name call until the other is beaten down enough to retreat!

You are welcome to your beliefs and I do not condemn you for them...

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on October 28, 2010, 10:43:28 PMYou are no different,  you are a sore and I reject YOU and what YOU say and the darkness that is shadowing your filth.

I will be reporting this UNACCEPTABLE commentary, to the moderators... You are become out of control as I see it... and these words are not appropriate for one to say to the other... Forgiving you for saying it... even though you likely shall not apologize for it...

Quote from: thinktank on October 29, 2010, 12:33:49 AM
nonsense

I shall consider the source of this useless remark...

QuoteI am not so sure that you and I should engage in conversation directly... but since you quoted my post, I believe I have the right to reply to it...  :dontknow:

Only if God makes you.

QuoteBtw... are you getting a headache by conversing with me?  Or maybe you are getting used to me, ...but if not, ...isn't that self destructive, and contradictory behavior?  :dontknow:

I guess I'm not ordained to get a headache by reading the posts that God has made you post at this current ordained moment.

QuoteOkay, ...but remember... you put the pot on the stove...  :laughing7:

Nope, God did it.

QuoteWhat makes you think I am arguing with God?  I am following the pathway that He designated I walk... how about you?  Or are YOU your own creator?  :laughing7:

Nope, God just made me post what I posted.  And God made you post what you posted.  However what God made me post, contradicts what God made you post, so God is in tantamount arguing with himself, and contradicting himself.  I guess God is just a divided fallible supreme being according to the application of your "God ordains it and it is done, no ifs, ands, or buts, and no say on our part" theology. :dontknow:

QuoteGod did not MAKE Paul do anything... PAUL did as was DECLARED he would DO... as did I... That DISRESPECT is DECLARED to be prevalent in this world toward YHVH and Paul noted said disrespect, does not mean it should not be OPPOSED... and whenever it IS OPPOSED, ...that OPPOSITION has also been DECLARED...  :grin:

Yes he did, if God ordained it to be done, and nothing is outside of God's will, and he predestines every single moment, action, and event, then God made him do it.  Don't get mad at Paul for saying lard, get mad at God, God made him do it...well that is if you can get mad at God anyway, I guess God will have to make you get mad at him, having predestined it to happen or not.

Quotecute...  :laughing7:  But still stumbling over the same ROCK...  :laughing7:

If I am stumbling, it isn't my fault, its all God's fault.  Stop talking to me about it, take it up with God.

QuoteI do not argue with GOD... I do as He has already DECLARED that I do... I observe myself as a PART in the display of the Revelation of the WORD of YHVH which contains the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL... In that Revelation, Paul will DISRESPECT God in his post (evil), and I shall OPPOSE that DISRESPECT (good)... both of which are originated and find SOURCE in the DECLARATION of both Paul and myself.

So in essence, everything I said is correct.  Stop being a teeter-totter WillieH.

QuoteJust a redundant proposition already covered.  I am ORDAINED to OPPOSE Paul (as well as you), in this thread... as well, You are ORDAINED (as well as Paul) to OPPOSE me.

Yep, God according to WillieH's (your) theology is nothing more than a self-contradicting, self-divided, self-dividing, fallible, unstable, divided minded, manipulative, authoritarian "supreme being".

Confirmation by your own statement?  Check.

QuoteBoth GOOD and EVIL exist in the proposition of the KNOWLEDGE of GOD...  Which contains all NEGATIVE and POSITIVE aspects that can possibly be conveyed...

Divided house, your version of god is a fallible failure.  I pity you.

QuoteGOD does not LIE, but is the creator of ALL PRINCIPALITIES one of which is the FALSE witness...  In conveying TRUTH which is emergent from HIM... False Witness is by default the other side of the KNOWLEDGE... For it is NOTED in the WORD to be existent... and ALL THINGS which exist, are MADE by Him -- John 1:3 -- Col 1:16 --  :Sparkletooth:

Your god contradicts himself by his own deed of ordaining two incompatible views to fight - these ordinances coming straight from him; which are in essence his declarations, and declarations are words, and words that are contradictory are false.

Your god is a blatant liar.

QuoteThe biggest hurdle which impedes you, is yourself.  Needing multiple repetitions of the same premise, yet refusing to hear them every time, and because you do not hear, you repeat...  :sigh:

I can't help it if your god makes me repeat myself.  Take it up with your god, he ordained me to repeat myself.  I can't help it that your god made me refuse to hear, its your god's fault, not mine, I am blameless, I am perfectly innocent of every single thing I do, I have no will, or say in the matter, its your god's fault!

I have no hurdle, because I'm not the one resisting anything, it is your god who is doing it.  How can I be a hurdle to myself, if it is god who is making me do it?

QuoteGod did not MAKE Paul and I do anything... He DECLARED that we would DO what we DO... for His WORD, which is utilized in that DECLARATION, is TRUTH... and that IN the DECLARATION of things which were NOT YET DONE -- Isiaiah 46:10 -- was Paul's disrespect, and my opposition of that disrespect.

So your god declared that A would happen, and A happened without any ifs, ands, or buts, or hope of any other direction being taken, because your god said so!  Oh my...manipulation via declaration, predestination, and contradictory ordinances...Then again who am I to talk, I'm just a puppet, predestined by the declaration and purpose of your god to type this statement which contradicts yours which he ordained and made you type.

QuoteThe members of the BODY do not make the CALL as to the "doings" of the BODY, ...the HEAD decides...

Simplified: We don't have any say or will in the matter.  We just do what the divine computer program say's we'll do, a program designed by your god.  I'm just a puppet piece of code in the divine application.

QuoteWhich it DID, and so the members being SERVANTS of the HEAD, ...respond accordingly... You do it everyday, don't you?  Are your fingers DECIDING your replies to me, Lefein?   :laugh:

Nope, your god is.

QuoteYou are more than welcome to your vision of surrounding reality lefein, and far be it from me to wish to change it.

I can't help what your god makes me think, or believe.  None of it is what I Lefein believe, it is what your god believes for me.  I'm just a lowly puppet doing my preordained dance in the divine program he coded. 

QuoteGOD is creator of ALL THINGS, ...and in making "UP" exist, it was necessary and within HIS WISDOM that DOWN exist as well, to point this truth out to us.  :laughing7:  For without DOWN, there is no "UP"... The very same principle works in the case of YOU versus ME...  :laughing7:

Your god has ordained that you make no sense what so ever.

QuoteNothing is EVIL of itself... it is the esteeming done within the hearts which are CONCLUDED in UNBELIEF which is the foundation of WICKEDNESS that manifest it.

Your god is wicked, false, evil, a liar, self-contradictory, self-dividing, and a vicious bastard.  Your god made me to say that by the way.

(However, my God and Father, Yahweh, is a beautiful loving, sinless, perfect, and glorious king.  I am absolutely certain that my God is better than your god.)

QuoteIn each proposition you are doing nothing but repeating yourself... It surprises me that you cannot recognize this stuttering of your mind.

I'm not doing it, your god is.  I'm not stuttering, your god is making me stutter, it is he through me who is stuttering.

QuoteBecause the Arms do not decide that which they do, does not mean that they do not exist, nor does it mean they have no purpose, nor does it not mean that that DO not "DO" anything...

It isn't the arm's fault that the brain makes it do stuff.  Its all god's fault, he keeps telling you through me that it is.

QuoteThey are subject to the agenda of the HEAD which purposes the members of the BODY to cooperate in the service of ALL to ALL...

So by me being subject to the agenda of your god, and since nothing I do is outside of your god's will, and since everything is going as he predestined them to go, and ordained them to be, I'm just following the program he wrote - and so I am not at fault for anything I do, say, or think, because it isn't really me who is doing anything, but it is purely your god making me do it all.

That PAUL produces imaginations is declared to be so... and his mind which was created by GOD, still operates irregardless of PAUL (or you for that matter) acknowledging the actual SOURCE of his doings -- Rom 9:16-20 -- Prov 21:1 -- That the KING's Heart is shapen of GOD, does not mean that the KING does not exist, nor that the KING does not decide to DO things, it means that the WILL of the KING is following the directives of the DECLARATION of GOD in His doings, whether they appear as GOOD or EVIL... and/or whether they appear as emergent from the finite KING or the eternal GOD within the observation of finites.

ALL power finds its source in YHVH -- Rom 13:1 -- and ALL THINGS made (including decisions for decisions are "made") ...are MADE by the Creator -- John 1:3

The whole project in this world is the teaching given to the BODY, to ELIMINATE SELF...  for SELF is that which is centered upon SELF (evil), and therefore disengaged from being centered upon GOD (good).

QuoteGod ordained it all, and made him believe it.  Just like you.  They aren't opposed to God's will at all!  And so his beliefs are 100% true - because God ordained them to be so.  God can't lie, not in action, word, or deed, and anything done by his will is not an untruth, or lie.

God does not MAKE us DO anything.  We DO as He has already DECLARED we shall DO, because HIS DECLARATION is the TRUTH.

QuoteThat PAUL (or you for that matter) believes a given fallacy, does not make it TRUTH, for TRUTH which is GOD, invented the premise of what FALLACY is... when He DECLARED His WORD as TRUTH.  In DECLARING the existence of FALSE WITNESS, the "false witness" does not become TRUTH, ...the TRUTH declares it for what it IS.

Again, your god is a liar, and he made me say he is.

QuoteWe are players in the REVELATION of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL, which is NOT our knowledge, but is being shared with us, the Children of the MOST HIGH...

I'm not your god's kid, I'm his toy, and so are you.  I have no mind of my own, no will of my own, and neither do you, we're just following the script that he wrote for us to do, and not only that, he's acting through us to follow said script, because we are subject to him, like fingers that can't move on their own will, they can only move on impulse from the brain - and so your god is being self contradictory by setting up two opposing ordinances as "truth".

QuoteGOD does not LIE in the creation and manifestation of EVIL... He DECLARES it as a matter of HIS KNOWLEDGE and that conveyance is done via HIS WORD...  That GOD exists in TRUTH is only established by the existence of LIES, for without the existence of LIES, the TRUTH is meaningless, and stands alone without definition.

God, Yahweh does not lie, but your god whom you try to name as Yahweh is nothing but a lie.

QuoteIf LIES did not exist, then how could anything be called TRUTH?  For whatever words that existed would be unopposed and undefined concerning validity or invalidity.

Truth is what IS, Truth is Reality, lies are nothing more than distortions, or absences of reality.  A rock can exist without the need for there to be some sort of "anti-rock".  Don't be a dualist, that is heresy.

QuoteIf LIES did not exist, then I could say "UP is DOWN" or "DARK is LIGHT" or "SMOOTH is ROUGH", none of said statements could be opposed as invalid.  But because TRUTH and LIES both exist... "Up is NOT DOWN", "Dark is NOT LIGHT" and "Smooth is NOT ROUGH"...  :dontknow:

Because Lies are not the opposite of Truth, lies are the absence or distortions of Truth!  Up is not the absence or distortion of Down, Down is just an abstract direction that goes towards gravity, rather than away from it.

QuoteWhatever... this is just more repetition of the same junk... Keep your mind set on uselessness and uselessness is what shall be your result.

Alas, that your god ordained for it to be useless then, and made me repeat myself needlessly.

QuoteYou are what is the "awkward spin", brother...  :laughing7:

We don't have the same god, my God is Yahweh, who is Truth.  I am not your brother.

QuoteThat is your vision... blinded by itself...  simply the ORDAINING of UP versus DOWN -- both ORDAINED in order to define BOTH...

Not my vision, only the ordained programming that your god has forced upon me.

QuoteOf course it does not.  It means that you have decided that YOU need a measure of INDEPENDENCE and CONTROL which is exclusive of Him in order to BE who and what you ARE... So you end up defining yourself, by yourself, instead of defining who and what you are by GOD and His preexistence of you.

I am but a code in the machine...I am but a code in the machine...I am but a code in the machine...*zombified*

QuoteWhat is impossible is you, brother!   :mlaugh:  And so impossibilities often emerge from you... via YOUR own WORDS...

Only because your god made them come out.  Blame him, not me.  He is at fault for everything that has ever happened.

QuoteBut the WORD of TRUTH says, ...NOTHING is IMPOSSIBLE with God, lefein... or didn't you KNOW that?

Thankfully the True God Yahweh doesn't take that as a license for mindless stupidity.

QuoteIncluding the "impossible" maze that your mind continually wanders in, confounding yourself...  :laughing7:

So says your god through you, having ordained you to say that sentence against your will, and mine.

____

Your theology is horrendously flawed!  I hope this whole charade has given you a glimpse at that by now...And by the way, you're hardly as crafty with insults, and hiding them as you think.  I see through your thinly veiled, devilish facade, and I tell you this...Your days of pulling these stunts are numbered, and you will be chastised by the True God Yahweh for your consistent, and constant insolence towards Him, and his people!

And especially for your constant, and consistent taking of his name in vain, and the taking of his character, will, and essence in vain as well.

Thus I declare it in jesus' name to be done, and in his name I pray for it - Amen.

I ask Father that you would back this by your authority, will, power, and name, and see it done. Amen.

I ask Father that you would break the foolishness, nonsense, and false doctrines that have been perpetrated by this man, who has spread these things falsely in your name, attributed them falsely to your being, and has falsely attempted to use you in his wickedness, and especially father for setting up a false god and stealing your holy name and giving it to this horrid idol!

In Jesus' name I pray, and ask - Amen.

willieH: Hi lefein...  :Sparkletooth:

Quote from: willieHhmmm... don't be in such a hurry to pat yourself on the back.  :laughing7:   you almost answered the question...

What about the Apostle Paul, lefein?  -- Rom 7:15 -- Did he "hate" things he wasn't even aware that he DID?   :Whistle:

Quote from: Lefein on October 28, 2010, 10:58:20 PM
I'm not patting myself on the back, I can't, it was ordained by God for me to say what I said, nothing else, I had no say in the matter, it was 100% God.  :dontknow:

Doesn't matter anyway about the Apostle Paul, because what I said is a matter of fact; The Holy Spirit convicts, and brings to remembrance the things we don't know about.

Once again, unable to reply, you sidestep the issues...  It is obvious to anyone (with the exception of you and a few others that refuse insights) that PAUL is dealing with problems in his life of which he is WELL AWARE...  Not need a supernatural occurance to "RE-enlighten " his memory.

Quote from: willieHThere is no such thing as "God the Spirit"... GOD is SPIRIT...

It is not up to you to decide the respect and credit that  >>I GIVE<<  unto YHVH

Quote from: Lefein on October 28, 2010, 10:58:20 PM
God ordained for me to say it, it wasn't me who said "God the Spirit" God did, it was 100% God through me who said God the Spirit.  So I'm not wrong, what I said is completely, perfectly 100% infallible, because what God says through me, by ordaining me to say it, is 100% perfect, because God said it, and he is infallible, and perfect.

Do you always chase your tail, lefein?

Quote from: willieHI hold YHVH in the HIGHEST esteem... and RESPECT...  :bowing: YHVH

Quote from: Lefein on October 28, 2010, 10:58:20 PMNo you don't.  You take his name and will in vain constantly.

You bear false witness, unless you can produce where you assert that I have "taken His name in vain" even ONCE, let alone CONSTANTLY...  :thumbdown:

Quote from: Lefein on October 28, 2010, 10:58:20 PMI was ordained to say that by the way, and if you have a problem with it  take it up with the perfect God, not me, because it wasn't me who said it, it was God, and only God, and 100% God, I had no say in the matter, I just posted what he told me to post, being ordained to post it.  And so it is God saying you don't take him in high esteem, not me.

As always you have nothing profitable to say... resorting to redundant repetition of what has already been addressed...

 :cloud9: Posts have been deleted, posts have been modified, and I'm locking this thread until everyone calms down. Please refer to the board rules about name-calling, flaming, baiting, ect.  :sigh:

Quote from: willieH on October 29, 2010, 12:41:31 AM
And if we are true believers, we shall LOVE one another, as we discuss... not name call until the other is beaten down enough to retreat!

That might actually mean something if you followed your own advise.   But of course you couldn't care less how your comments come across to anyone, you have said as such that you can write whatever you see fit and the other person must take the time to muddle through all your garbage.

Well, muddle through it yourself and quit whining to the mods about it.