Judas

[Chris]

The millennia is said to thousand years but the Bible also says that thousand years is just a day. For those who reign with Christ are they only to be limited to 1000 years or is it possible that 1000 years being a day signifies to a different day as in age or a dispensation? I tend to think the latter.

:cloud9: Here's some thoughts on that and I hope I can bring it out alright. If a day is as a thousand years, and that day is no part darkness as is Christ, that day IS Christ; HE IS the "1000 year day". The Spirit that He is has no beginning and no end, and so this day NEVER ENDS and has always been.

Further; all that are caught up into that day that is Christ, which is our spirit, the spirits of just men made perfect (the 7th day; seven literally means perfect, complete, sacred), IS also contained within this "day".

So this "day" then, has always existed but was not fully revealed to man since the garden when Adam walked within this "day" (His breath = the cool of the day). And all who have passed by way of the grave, their spirits are IN Christ, which is the "day" we're speaking of. Remember He is the bright and morning star (like the sun) which is the "mark" of the DAY.

This is why when He "comes" (and He's ALWAYS coming, the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow), He comes with 10,000's of His saints. Blessings....

AMEN!! Cardinal!!

As I see it, it is all ONE DAY to the Lord, a DAY that is divided between THE NIGHT (darkness for those who sleep) and THE DAY (for those who awake and come into the light).

Scriptures speaks of "a thousand years" in connection with not only THE DAY of the Lord but with THE NIGHT also (which is "as yesterday" when it is PAST) - God having a covenant WITH BOTH (the NIGHT and the DAY)... a thousand years TWICE TOLD!

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Yes, AMEN, that's true also. I didn't go there, but the day of no part darkness is not really that because there is no darkness, but rather that the darkness has been covered over (swallowed up) of the light.

Which is why the tablets of the law (that ministers and therefore contains death or darkness) are covered over by the mercy seat, and why when they were uncovered, death was the result. Love (the 7th day which IS the Spirit of Christ) covers a multitude of sins.

The white stone overcomers receive is the Word/law with the death covered over by this 7th day of pure mercy, which is the Spirit of Christ in fullness. This is where we have the fullness of the heart of flesh (celestial flesh) and not a stony heart.

But first that heart must be broken as the alabaster box/stone to pour out the costly (roughly $300) ointment. The measurements of Noah's ark have this 300 in them, and it is 100 X 3, or the fullness as revealed in all 3 of the courts of the Tabernacle. His Word is perfect. Blessings....

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Doug...  :cloud9:

Hey, I have a couple of questions bro...

So according to you Chris, John's view of the GWT of people being resurrected to judgement and Christ's words of persons resurrected to shame and dishonor are not true

(1)  It appears to me that obviously you are referring to Rev 20:12-15 as the "GWT"...  Where is "resurrection" specifically mentioned in these verses?   

JESUS said: 

John 12:31 -- NOW, is the JUDGMENT of THIS WORLD

(2)  If as JESUS plainly noted, the JUDGMENT is NOW... why should there be another "later"? 

I think a problem exists in the common observance of Scripture (which IS the DECLARATION of GOD) concerning this realm [time]... Isaiah notes that the DECLARATION of GOD, is "END" to BEGINNING [divine/eternal agenda], not BEGINNING to END [finite/temporal agenda]...

So many of the things such as the (so-called) "GWT Judgment" are observations which automatically assume FINITE "CHRONOLOGY" to be within the observance of the REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST [the WORD] which is found being "declared" -- END to BEGINNING -- Isaiah 46:10

:Peace: bro...

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

[WhiteWings]

Again just a question and not taking sides....
What kind of ressurection are you talking about here?
- Only the spirit?
- Body?
- Body + spirit?
- A second after death?
- Possibly millenia after death?

Hi WhiteWings,

Who are you asking?

If me, what are you referring to as "here"? A particular post or just in general?

You and livelystone.
"Here" is the last few posts before my post in which the both of you mentioned resurrection

[WhiteWings]

The millennia is said to thousand years but the Bible also says that thousand years is just a day.

And day is like a year. That would also mean that all the days in the 1000 years can be a year. 365000 years.

For those who reign with Christ are they only to be limited to 1000 years or is it possible that 1000 years being a day signifies to a different day as in age or a dispensation? I tend to think the latter.

Ask no proof; but I always think the creation/plan will only last a week. 7000 years. Conflicting because I believe in billions year old earth.

After all when Jesus said to the foolish man "tonight thy soul will be required of thee" certainly does not sound as if it would another 1000 years off before he faced the GWT.

I can also read that differently.
For me the soul stands for life. If that soul is required it means dying.
Or a bit more ETs make a choice between good and evil. Like sell your soul to the devil.

[Chris]

:cloud9: Yes, AMEN, that's true also. I didn't go there, but the day of no part darkness is not really that because there is no darkness, but rather that the darkness has been covered over (swallowed up) of the light.

Which is why the tablets of the law (that ministers and therefore contains death or darkness) are covered over by the mercy seat, and why when they were uncovered, death was the result. Love (the 7th day which IS the Spirit of Christ) covers a multitude of sins.

The white stone overcomers receive is the Word/law with the death covered over by this 7th day of pure mercy, which is the Spirit of Christ in fullness. This is where we have the fullness of the heart of flesh (celestial flesh) and not a stony heart.

But first that heart must be broken as the alabaster box/stone to pour out the costly (roughly $300) ointment. The measurements of Noah's ark have this 300 in them, and it is 100 X 3, or the fullness as revealed in all 3 of the courts of the Tabernacle. His Word is perfect. Blessings....

Indeed it is PERFECT as He is PERFECT!!

Amen! God causes THE LIGHT to shine OUT OF DARKNESS!

Swallows it up whole!  :thumbsup:

[Chris]

AMEN Willie!!  :thumbsup:

WhiteWings, I'll be back to answer later. Gotta run out the door before I'm late to work!

[Beth]

Jhn 12:30   Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.  31   Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. 

I don't think we can take part of a scripture "Now is the judgment" and make a doctrine out of it that declares there is no future judgment.  We need to discern what is being said.

Jhn 16:7   Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.  8   And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:  9   Of sin, because they believe not on me;  10   Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;  11   Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. 

Perhaps it would be helpful to the discussion if those who do not believe in a future judgment (for those who are not found in Christ) to explain how they understand these scriptures, especially in light of the scriptures that declare a future judgment.

Rev 14:7   Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. 

1Th 1:10   And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. 

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. 

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.  13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 

If there is a future judgment (and I understand the scriptures to be stating there is), then the question as to Judas becomes was he in Christ?  Since most would agree that he is a type for the son of perdition, then the answer must be no.

Something else which should be looked at more closely is with regard to Judas' repentance.  Paul tells us that Esau also sought repentance with tears, but none was found.  Based on my study of repentance, this is what is spoken of with regard to Judas.

:girlheart:

[Chris]

Hi Beth,

I think that it all depends on how you see "the revelation of Jesus Christ". As a physical event that is yet to take place or as a spiritual truth (ie I will not leave you comfortless; I will come to you; Christ in you, the hope of glory).

Christ comes "the second time" unti them that look for him. No?

And it is WHEN HE (who is our life) APPEARS that we shall APPEAR WITH HIM - in glory. Right?

As I see that things that are seen in John's vision (book of Revelation) are happening now (and have been happening in those who believe from the very foundation of the world).

We are ALL "in" Christ, IMO.

[Chris]

Again just a question and not taking sides....
What kind of ressurection are you talking about here?
- Only the spirit?
- Body?
- Body + spirit?
- A second after death?
- Possibly millenia after death?

I only see one resurrection - Jesus Christ.

It is by being found IN HIM that we know the power of HIS RESURRECTION and pass from death unto LIFE. I see this as a spiritual truth that has nothing to do with physical death or the resurrection of "the body of this death" (ie our physical bodies from physical tombs).

I believe that when we die we go to be with the Lord. And those who do not already know the Lord will see Him for the first time and, just as Paul did, fall at His feet and know that He is Lord.

[Chris]

Beth, I see judgment pretty much the same way that WillieH does in this thread:

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=7455.0

[Beth]

Hi Chris

Thanks for the link, I just saw it now as I scrolled down to reply to your first message.  There is no doubt in my mind that the Revelation of Jesus Christ speaks of the unveiling of Christ in "His" people.

:girlheart:

[Beth]

Hi Chris

I followed the link you provided and see there are 4 pages and on the first page alone Willie has 4 lengthy posts.  So you are saying that you agree with every post Willie has on that thread and that each post deals with judgment.  That is quite a bit of reading and it seems it would be easier for you to just state your beliefs in response to my post  :happygrin:  rather than refer me to what looks to be at least an hours worth of reading  :mshock:  If there is a specific response that deals directly to my post, that would be great  :thumbsup:

:girlheart:

[Chris]

Hi Beth,

Was just trying not to take this thread too far off-topic so figured I would point you to another thread where judgment was already being discussed.

I do think that all of Willie's post in the other thread are relevant to judgment they also do probably repeat some of the same points over and over again - in repsonse to questions as the conversation progressed. So you probably wouldn't have to read the whole thread to get the gist of it.

I think I posted on about page 3, but only added a few comments. Included in one of my posts is this link:

http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendId=368111335&blogId=466307247

It was a post made at another forum by a friend of mine that I also liked very much and saved. It might not be quite as much to read.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Beth... :hithere:

Jhn 12:30   Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.  31   Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. 

I don't think we can take part of a scripture "Now is the judgment" and make a doctrine out of it that declares there is no future judgment.  We need to discern what is being said.

Hmmm...  God's WORD does not need a man's witness to verify, NOR establish It...

And, before I get into defining my thought, the END was DECLARED [which is the utilization of WORDS] FROM, ...the BEGINNING -- Isaiah 46:10 -- Rom 4:17 -- Rom 9:11

To say that this (we need multiple witnesses in order that a "truthful" teaching can be established) would proclaim...

Ex 20:5  -- Thou shalt NOT KILL...

Standing BY ITSELF is INSUFFICIENT to establish this STATEMENT as, truth?

ALL individual points of the LAW are one for ALL and ALL for one... are they not? -- James 2:10 -- and thereby even ONE stands for ALL!

Also, John 12:31 is supported by Col 1:20, is it not?  :dontknow:

And the CROSS of CHRIST is noted as existent, ...PRIOR to the Creation! -- Rev 13:8 -- is it NOT, Beth?  :JCThink:

If the CROSS of CHRIST in its moment, RECONCILED ALL THINGS to YHVH (which in ETERNAL agenda was PRIOR to the Creation, and reconciled EVERYTHING that needed reconciliation), then what needs to be further JUDGED, Beth?

ALL have sinned Beth... yet "ALL" have yet to walk the Earth...
ALL have been concluded in unbelief Beth... yet "ALL" have yet to walk the Earth...
ALL find themselves and their sin and unbelief RECONCILED... yet "ALL" have yet to walk the Earth...

The "books" of those "yet to walk the earth"...  in terms of TIME, are YET to be "opened" before Him... yet STAND OPEN before HIM within HIS FOREKNOWLEDGE of them... Which within said "FOREKNOWLEDGE", ...finds ALL JUDGMENT contained.

:dontknow: :dontknow: :dontknow:

Because WE live and observe in FINITE/Linear terms -- i.e. a "judgment" (you percieve) that is future, does not so confine the WORD or Its source, the Heart of YHVH God.

YHVH and His WORD are "NOW", "Been there, done that" entities... (no irreverance intended)

We (and our experiences in time) all emerge FROM (in time) and return TO (in conclusion) ---> that (YHVH and His WORD) which ALREADY IS... (WAS and ALWAYS WILL BE)... :nod:

ALREADY judged and forgiven, for the Lamb was slain FROM THE FOUNDATION of the WORLD...  noting the "end" to BE in place BEFORE the "beginning", began... Rev 13:8

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

[Beth]

If the CROSS of CHRIST in its moment, RECONCILED ALL THINGS to YHVH (which in ETERNAL agenda was PRIOR to the Creation, and reconciled EVERYTHING that needed reconciliation), then what needs to be further JUDGED, Beth?

Hi Willie

Indeed Jesus Christ reconciled men and God through the cross.  I don't however believe that this means there is nothing further to be judged.  IMO, there is no further judgment of sin (the noun) for Jesus paid the debt of sin not just for those who believe but for the world.

But to answer your question "what needs to be further judged" would put me in a place of judging and I do not think I am capable of righteous judgment, so I just BELIEVE the scriptures that God has judged, is judging and SHALL judge.

Jhn 5:28   Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,  29   And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. 

Paul says if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged, but when we are jugded, we are chastened of the Lord that we should not be CONDEMNED (judged) WITH THE WORLD. (1 Cor. 11:31-32). 

He hath appointed a day, in the which He will JUDGE THE WORLD in righteousness by that Man Whom He hath ordained" (Acts 17:31).

Do ye not know that the saints SHALL JUDGE THE WORLD?" (I Cor. 6:2).

So if sin has been judged there is no one who will stand before the judgment seat of christ for sin, but what about works?

I don't think judgment is such a NEGATIVE thing.  Isaiah seemed to be rejoicing when he spoke about God's Judgment.

Yea, in the way of THY JUDGMENTS, O Lord, have we waited for thee ... with my soul have I desired Thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek Thee early: for when THY JUDGMENTS are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isa. 26:8-9).

Ray Prinzing wrote:  "The very purpose of judgment is to separate you from the old, that you might come into the new. To separate you from selfhood's rebellion, giving you a TURNING POINT, and heading you in the right direction, in the will of God."  Those who have not experienced this separation during this age, would you deny them that opportunity in the age to come?  I think you do so when you suggest NOW IS THE JUDGMENT (period).

:girlheart:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: For me, the way I understand the "NOW", is that it is always  NOW in His Spirit, as time is no more, neither past nor future, but always NOW. It's a difficult concept to wrap our mind with it's finite experience around.

So whether in the body or out of the body, in the realm of Spirit it is always NOW. Time is the measurement of death/corruption/decay. Nothing can corrupt or decay walking (existing or drawing our life essence from) in His Spirit, because there is no time in His Spirit.

As a type and shadow, this is why the Israelites sandals and garments did not wax old even after 40 years in the desert wilderness.

So indeed, it is always the "time" of judgment to the flesh (flesh as in lust, hate, murder, bitterness, ect.), because the flesh is "judged" by the presence of the Spirit, and the Spirit is EVERYWHERE.

This is why we will give an account of every "idle" word, and why it says anything that is not of either yea or nay is evil. Idle there means "unemployed", ie. the Spirit didn't speak it. Life and death is in the tongue and we will eat the fruit of it. Blessings....

[rosered]

     AWESOME   Sis , I can sure understand this  , thanks for putting this  in words !!

Rom 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

for Love is the fulfilling of the Law in Christ !  :icon_flower: 
and  for sure a big ol fruit of the Spirit  and sure good stuff for everyone  to be eating this fruit ...
2Cr 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty. 


Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.  For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if [there be] any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law. 
Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 
Jam 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: