Hey guys writing from my mobile phone so not very exciting text. I was thinking, when Jesus says that He did not loose any of those that the Father gave him, does that include Judas? Most Eter's would say judas was well and truly lost forever but does Jesus say differently?
Some say — that Judas can be viewed as obedient — more so than a traitor.
Hi Nat , good question
It seems Judas lost his place in the ministry and his life . seems he could not bear the guilt and took his life
I am sure others will share their views
Here are two different translations and seems a bit different in thought
just a bit though .. what do you think ?
KJV
Jhn 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
new living translation
12 During my time here, I protected them by the power of the name you gave me. I guarded them so that not one was lost, except the one headed for destruction, as the Scriptures foretold.
:cloud9: My :2c:......We live or have the life of the Spirit by every word that proceeds from the Father's mouth, not by the bread (letter) alone. Jesus said I speak only what I hear the Father speak. He spoke to Judas after Satan entered him, that which you must do, do quickly, ie. a proceeding word of life from the Father's mouth. Compare with Paul turning one over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh that the spirit might be saved.
The price of iniquity is the 30 fold realm (30 pieces of silver, instead of, for your SILVER, I'll give you gold) and it's payment is to purchase the potter's field, ie. to be broken. The 30 fold realm is the same as cistern that is set to be broken, that the water can flow out, instead of being stagnant and breeding worms. A "good" cistern, must first hold water (1st baptism/anointing), but the next step is become as a spring of living (or moving) waters (2nd baptism/anointing), and if it will not, then it will be broken to release the living waters.
So think of a pitcher that won't allow the water to flow out of it, so it must be broken to release the water (spirit). The spirit returns to the One who gave it, so one way or another, that ALL might be saved, EXCEPT the one son of perdition = Satan. The sons of God came before God and SATAN was among them. Blessings....
Quote from: natcat86 on January 26, 2010, 12:46:54 AM
Hey guys writing from my mobile phone so not very exciting text. I was thinking, when Jesus says that He did not loose any of those that the Father gave him, does that include Judas? Most Eter's would say judas was well and truly lost forever but does Jesus say differently?
As with every other potential UR topic, there's a million answers to it that are good that for whatever reason, nobody's taken the time to compile answers to each topic in a single volume. Uncertain of why, unless it's the typical with being too broke to pay attention, so that they were lucky to get their own spin in print or a reprint of some amazing classic of UR, but nothing about combing through each really good proof against ET and categorizing them in separate volumes, like a separate book on this topic of Judas with what various UR authors have said over the centuries. One of my favs on this one is that the same prophecy St. Peter applies to Judas, St. Paul applies to Israel, which would lead one to believe that their fates are going to be the same, ultimately, and since all of Israel shall be saved, then though he might of wished he'd never been born after having betrayed his Master, zero doubts he's restored to God through Christ in the fullness of time, whether or not he likewise sits on a throne judging the twelve tribes of Israel since there's reason to believe that might have passed on to St. Paul instead. Again, there's a prophecy in Zechariah about the opening of the eyes of Israel that they'll likewise be as powerfully grieved at the wounds in Jesus' Hands and Feet when their eyes are opened to Him via the preaching of the Gospel and He's made known to them as the One Who received these wounds in the house of His friends.
...perhaps — Judas was prepared for dishonor.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on January 26, 2010, 03:17:37 AM
...perhaps — Judas was prepared for dishonor.
2Timothy 2 says that whether a vessel for honor or dishonor, it's our choice, though I realize that's a wrinkle in the nose of some people's sovereignty theology, but it's the Deuteronomy 30:19 choice all over again of life and blessings, death and cursings, but again Romans 11 says all shall be saved, so...whatever one's choice, the deck is stacked, it's trick cards that can be read from the other side, and the dealer's cheating so that the House always wins;-)
Quote from: martincisneros on January 26, 2010, 03:21:39 AM
2Timothy 2 says that whether a vessel for honor or dishonor, it's our choice, though I realize that's a wrinkle in the nose of some people's sovereignty theology, but it's the Deuteronomy 30:19 choice all over again of life and blessings, death and cursings, but again Romans 11 says all shall be saved, so...whatever one's choice, the deck is stacked, it's trick cards that can be read from the other side, and the dealer's cheating so that the House always wins;-)
:cloud9: Ain't it the truth? :laughing7:
So, if it wasn't Judas — it would have been another.
For the plan HAD to be carried out.
Card, why end your sentence with a (?) question mark?
It's not God's nature to do miracles. Those are only as necessary, but it is His nature to always have an extra card up His sleeve, and what many would call Him cheating is actually Him doing all things according to wisdom. Everybody that ever grows fully mature into His image will likewise someday always have the proverbial extra card up their sleeve, so as with the salvation of all being inescapable like all things falling into a black hole to become one in some other universe, it is possible to always win and not fail, to come out the head and not the tail after one has fully matured in the Word and Spirit.
The reason I say this is because some people will look at their current prayer lives and some of my recent statements on 1Timothy 2 about praying for all to pull the manifestation of that ransom into the lives of each one and I know the potential cringe that some may have that if Judas's fate in any way relates to their prayer life, then he's TOAST!! roflol
But never try to make intellectual projections about your next realm of spiritual expression and what you'll look like when you've fully grown into that next level 'cause the past doesn't determine the future, unless it's what God said, and then since His promises can't be revoked, then at the end of the day each believer can have the assurance of being on their feet, just the same as their God, with their arms around the whole world as it's sanctified and conformed to our image. That's been the problem for so long, is that they have been our image! But His love is winning out and the Word's gaining stronger roots in us day by day and as the Judas's of the world reach for one of our branches to keep 'em from abiding permanently in the abyss, we have the assurance that one day they'll be just like us, as today we're just like Him;-)
Quote from: Beloved Servant on January 26, 2010, 12:54:43 AM
Some say — that Judas can be viewed as obedient — more so than a traitor.
I agree with that.
Luke 22:3 Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.
Luke 22:31 "And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has desired
to have you, that he may sift you as wheat; But I have prayed
for you, that your faith fail not: and when thou are converted,
strengthen your brethren"
Why was or wasn't satan stopped on both occasions?
Because Judas meditated on the treachery until he'd drawn into himself the spirit that corresponded with that treachery. He'd opened the door to it, as Job to his trials with his fear; some movies have suggested political ambition on Judas's part 'cause Jesus would shrug off the persecutors like everytime before and just walk off, or supposedly, and he'd have 30 pieces of silver to put back into the bag because he was about to get caught stealing as much as he was, but Jesus had dropped the shield of faith that operates by love and they took Him and the rest is history. Judas was deeply horrified and manifested the death that he saw in the situation and went for a rope, since his flesh was being driven by a demon with that imagination he'd entertained of making some money off of one of these times that Jesus would just walk away from those that wanted to harm Him -- this time He didn't, and Judas freaked...because He didn't act according to the script in Judas's mind on how this was going to play out like it had every other time. But without the Written Word, how do you script someone that knows more than you do and whose questions are only because He already knows the answer but wants you to "get it"? roflol Perhaps Judas thought he was sealing his Apostleship and perhaps trying to play both sides, he'd work for the Sanheidren and Rome as well 'til Jesus was ready to overthrow in a military way both the Sanheidren and Rome and Jesus didn't have in mind doing it quite that way. He eventually did, [via the preaching of the Gospel,] but not in the way Judas had the chess game all played out in his head.
According to the scriptures, a replacement for Judas was not made until after Christ's ascension, right? (Acts 1:23-26)
And, according to Paul, Christ appeared after His resurrection to "the twelve", right? (1 Cor 15:5)
That must have included Judas, then, right?
So if Judas was still among the disciples after Christ's resurrection and nothing is said about him being damned or cast out - by them/Christ prior to him taking his own life - then why should anyone just assume that Judas is forever lost/damned? If such were the case, it seems that it would be more clearly stated in the scriptures.
It seems to me that Judas represents the "son of perdition" (that "wicked", that "man of sin") that needs to be revealed in all of us - before it can be destroyed "by the brightness of His coming".
Quote from: Chris on January 29, 2010, 02:07:18 AM
According to the scriptures, a replacement for Judas was not made until after Christ's ascension, right? (Acts 1:23-26)
And, according to Paul, Christ appeared after His resurrection to "the twelve", right? (1 Cor 15:5)
That must have included Judas, then, right?
So if Judas was still among the disciples after Christ's resurrection and nothing is said about him being damned or cast out - by them/Christ prior to him taking his own life - then why should anyone just assume that Judas is forever lost/damned? If such were the case, it seems that it would be more clearly stated in the scriptures.
It seems to me that Judas represents the "son of perdition" (that "wicked", that "man of sin") that needs to be revealed in all of us - before it can be destroyed "by the brightness of His coming".
:icon_flower:
Judas was an Israelite, and the Bible says that ALL Israel will be saved.
Quote from: Chris on January 29, 2010, 02:07:18 AM
According to the scriptures, a replacement for Judas was not made until after Christ's ascension, right? (Acts 1:23-26)
And, according to Paul, Christ appeared after His resurrection to "the twelve", right? (1 Cor 15:5)
That must have included Judas, then, right?
So if Judas was still among the disciples after Christ's resurrection and nothing is said about him being damned or cast out - by them/Christ prior to him taking his own life - then why should anyone just assume that Judas is forever lost/damned? If such were the case, it seems that it would be more clearly stated in the scriptures.
It seems to me that Judas represents the "son of perdition" (that "wicked", that "man of sin") that needs to be revealed in all of us - before it can be destroyed "by the brightness of His coming".
What about this scripture?
Mark 14:21
The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.And for those who choose to ignore it............. what about this scripture?
Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone,
but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. :Chinscratch: :Chinscratch: :Chinscratch:
Blessings
Doug
Quote from: Livelystone on January 29, 2010, 03:41:40 AM
Quote from: Chris on January 29, 2010, 02:07:18 AM
According to the scriptures, a replacement for Judas was not made until after Christ's ascension, right? (Acts 1:23-26)
And, according to Paul, Christ appeared after His resurrection to "the twelve", right? (1 Cor 15:5)
That must have included Judas, then, right?
So if Judas was still among the disciples after Christ's resurrection and nothing is said about him being damned or cast out - by them/Christ prior to him taking his own life - then why should anyone just assume that Judas is forever lost/damned? If such were the case, it seems that it would be more clearly stated in the scriptures.
It seems to me that Judas represents the "son of perdition" (that "wicked", that "man of sin") that needs to be revealed in all of us - before it can be destroyed "by the brightness of His coming".
What about this scripture?
Mark 14:21
The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.
What about it?
Quote from: Livelystone
And for those who choose to ignore it............. what about this scripture?
Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
:Chinscratch: :Chinscratch: :Chinscratch:
Blessings
Doug
Who, exactly, are you accusing of ignoring this verse?
http://www.tentmaker.org/Dew/Dew3/D3-JudasIscariot.html
Tentmaker has a good article on this!
Quote from: Chris on January 29, 2010, 02:07:18 AM
According to the scriptures, a replacement for Judas was not made until after Christ's ascension, right? (Acts 1:23-26)
And, according to Paul, Christ appeared after His resurrection to "the twelve", right? (1 Cor 15:5)
That must have included Judas, then, right?
So if Judas was still among the disciples after Christ's resurrection and nothing is said about him being damned or cast out - by them/Christ prior to him taking his own life - then why should anyone just assume that Judas is forever lost/damned? If such were the case, it seems that it would be more clearly stated in the scriptures.
It seems to me that Judas represents the "son of perdition" (that "wicked", that "man of sin") that needs to be revealed in all of us - before it can be destroyed "by the brightness of His coming".
From Paul's perspective, everything would have been after the ascension, and Matthias was only chosen because he'd likewise seen Him, so, yes, He appeared to the 12, but Judas had hung himself and was completely out of the picture and Peter's commenting on that with the appointment of Matthias. How are you going to have a spiritual experience like seeing an Immortal and then go and hang yourself afterwards? Doesn't fit the known facts and human psychology where Judas would have been elated to have seen Him back from the dead.
Quote from: Chris on January 29, 2010, 03:50:05 AM
Quote from: Livelystone on January 29, 2010, 03:41:40 AM
Quote from: Chris on January 29, 2010, 02:07:18 AM
According to the scriptures, a replacement for Judas was not made until after Christ's ascension, right? (Acts 1:23-26)
And, according to Paul, Christ appeared after His resurrection to "the twelve", right? (1 Cor 15:5)
That must have included Judas, then, right?
So if Judas was still among the disciples after Christ's resurrection and nothing is said about him being damned or cast out - by them/Christ prior to him taking his own life - then why should anyone just assume that Judas is forever lost/damned? If such were the case, it seems that it would be more clearly stated in the scriptures.
It seems to me that Judas represents the "son of perdition" (that "wicked", that "man of sin") that needs to be revealed in all of us - before it can be destroyed "by the brightness of His coming".
What about this scripture?
Mark 14:21
The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.
What about it?
Did Judas not betray Jesus?
Quote from: Livelystone
And for those who choose to ignore it............. what about this scripture?
Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
:Chinscratch: :Chinscratch: :Chinscratch:
Blessings
Doug
QuoteWho, exactly, are you accusing of ignoring this verse?
Whoever chooses to ignore it....... if the shoe fits wear it......... It does not matter to me whose foot it is on :msealed:
Blessings
Doug
Quote from: martincisneros on January 29, 2010, 03:55:29 AM
Quote from: Chris on January 29, 2010, 02:07:18 AM
According to the scriptures, a replacement for Judas was not made until after Christ's ascension, right? (Acts 1:23-26)
And, according to Paul, Christ appeared after His resurrection to "the twelve", right? (1 Cor 15:5)
That must have included Judas, then, right?
So if Judas was still among the disciples after Christ's resurrection and nothing is said about him being damned or cast out - by them/Christ prior to him taking his own life - then why should anyone just assume that Judas is forever lost/damned? If such were the case, it seems that it would be more clearly stated in the scriptures.
It seems to me that Judas represents the "son of perdition" (that "wicked", that "man of sin") that needs to be revealed in all of us - before it can be destroyed "by the brightness of His coming".
From Paul's perspective, everything would have been after the ascension, and Matthias was only chosen because he'd likewise seen Him, so, yes, He appeared to the 12, but Judas had hung himself and was completely out of the picture and Peter's commenting on that with the appointment of Matthias. How are you going to have a spiritual experience like seeing an Immortal and then go and hang yourself afterwards? Doesn't fit the known facts and human psychology where Judas would have been elated to have seen Him back from the dead.
Are you saying that Jesus appeared to the twelve after His ascension? Or that Mattias was actually chosen before the ascension, though the passage I referenced seems to put it afterward?
Quote from: Livelystone on January 29, 2010, 04:03:01 AM
Did Judas not betray Jesus?
Yes. What has that got to do with whether or not Judas is or will be saved or if he will spend eternity in hell?
Are you claiming the latter?
Quote from: Livelystone
Whoever chooses to ignore it....... if the shoe fits wear it......... It does not matter to me whoose foot it is on :msealed:
Blessings
Doug
It might not matter to you, but whoever it is you are addressing might want to know so that they can give an answer or offer clarification for what they have said if it has given you the impression that they are ignoring this (or any other) passage of scripture.
So just wondering which post/who you are addressing?
Quote from: Beloved Servant on January 26, 2010, 03:17:37 AM
...perhaps — Judas was prepared for dishonor.
yes, that's my view too. Played his role, to be reconciled/re-shaped by the Potter.
Quote
Yes. What has that got to do with whether or not Judas is or will be saved or if he will spend eternity in hell?
Are you claiming the latter?
Chris :sigh:
When it was not popular I spoke of UR
It is not a question of what will ultimately happen but what Judas will endure when grace is no longer forbearing but that his purification will be the result of judgement passed.
What do you think of the following scripture?
Acts 1: 25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own placeDid Judas go to bed of roses?...... of course not!!..... He went to a place reserved for those who betray Jesus!
How do we betray Jesus........ simply put to call on the Lord for forgiveness of sins and then return to sin is betraying Jesus
Because the fact still remains Judas during the judgement appointed to him for his betrayal of Jesus will wish he had never been born........ at least according to the Scriptures that I have great confidence in.
Blessings
Doug
Quote from: Livelystone on January 29, 2010, 04:53:51 AM
Quote
Yes. What has that got to do with whether or not Judas is or will be saved or if he will spend eternity in hell?
Are you claiming the latter?
Chris :sigh:
When it was not popular I spoke of UR
:laughing7:
I know that you believe in UR, which is why I didn't understand what the point was to your question. :winkgrin:
QuoteIt is not a question of what will ultimately happen but what Judas will endure when grace is no longer forbearing but that his purification will be the result of judgement passed.
What do you think of the following scripture?
Acts 1: 25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place
Did Judas go to bed of roses?...... of course not!!..... He went to a place reserved for those who betray Jesus!
How do we betray Jesus........ simply put to call on the Lord for forgiveness of sins and then return to sin is betraying Jesus
Because the fact still remains Judas during the judgement appointed to him for his betrayal of Jesus will wish he had never been born........ at least according to the Scriptures that I have great confidence in.
Blessings
Doug
Seems to me that Judas already wished he had never been born; or why else did he kill himself?
But let's look at Mar 14:21 in a few other translations:
Mar 14:21
(CLV) seeing that the Son of Mankind is indeed going away according as it is written concerning Him, yet woe to that man through whom the Son of Mankind is being given up!
Ideal were it for Him if that man were not born!"
(EB) Because, the Son of Man, indeed, goeth his way, - according as it is written concerning him; but alas! for that man, through whom the Son of Man is being delivered up, -
Well for him, if that man, had not been born! (LITV) Truly the Son of Man goes as it has been written concerning Him, but woe to that man through whom the Son of Man is betrayed!
It were good for him if that man had never been born.
(YLT) the Son of Man doth indeed go, as it hath been written concerning him, but woe to that man through whom the Son of Man is delivered up;
good were it to him if that man had not been born.'
Good
FOR WHOM if
WHO had never been born?
Good for Judas if Judas had never been born?
That seems to make sense in the way that KJV is worded. But it makes much less sense when you look at the wording of these other translations, as they don't seem to treat the "him" and the "that man" as references to the same person. Indeed, it wouldn't make sense to say "good were it to him (Judas) if that man (Judas) had not been born"
Certainly, the "that man" refer to Judas, as "that man" is mentioned twice and is in reference to him "through whom the Son of Man is delivered up" (Judas).
But who is the "him"?
Judas or
the Son of Man?
And, indeed, the CLV capitalized the "H" in "Him" making the "Him" refer to Christ (the Son of Man), rather than Judas.
That doesn't make it correct, but would it make sense to say that it would have been good for "the Son of Man" if "Judas" (through whom He would delivered up to be crucified) has not been born?
I believe that it does, particularly since it is "the Son of Man" (as opposed to "the Son of God") that is being referred to by Christ.
So did Judas go to "a bed of roses"? No he didn't. He went to his grave in shame. :mblush:
Quote from: Chris on January 29, 2010, 06:18:43 AM
So did Judas go to "a bed of roses"? No he didn't. He went to his grave in shame. :mblush:
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Quote from: natcat86 on January 26, 2010, 12:46:54 AM
Hey guys writing from my mobile phone so not very exciting text. I was thinking, when Jesus says that He did not loose any of those that the Father gave him, does that include Judas? Most Eter's would say judas was well and truly lost forever but does Jesus say differently?
Judas's lost his allotment and his house was left desolate.
that dosent mean he wont be ""saved""
chuckt
The prodical son lost his allotment too.
QuoteThat doesn't make it correct, but would it make sense to say that it would have been good for "the Son of Man" if "Judas" (through whom He would delivered up to be crucified) has not been born?
I believe that it does, particularly since it is "the Son of Man" (as opposed to "the Son of God") that is being referred to by Christ.
I was going to bring this up. L. Ray Smith had written about this, but I couldn't find it. I remember years ago when I first read Ray, I checked out the Greek and it does appear that the "him" is referring to the Son of Man.
:girlheart:
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 29, 2010, 03:21:31 PM
The prodical son lost his allotment too.
yup he squandered it away.....
Quote from: chuckt on January 29, 2010, 04:42:51 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 29, 2010, 03:21:31 PM
The prodical son lost his allotment too.
yup he squandered it away.....
Of course it's not huge revelation when I say the father for the parable is our heavenly Father. The son is creation (that sins etc).
When the son returned he was cast out. -->annihilated
Neither did he get some sort of punishment. -> "hell"
He got a party from a father that cried of happiness. -> UR
The big question is; will God give prodical son Judas a party?
I think the answer is yes. (besides the question: Did Judas rebel or follow orders?)
I believe there is one paramount scripture that should teach us what the word "apollumi" means. "For the Son of Man is come to seek and to save that which is lost (apollumi)." (Luke 19:10) This passage refers specifically to Zacchaeus; he was lost, destroyed. Because he was lost, he was ready to be found and saved. The theory of most false definitions of "apollumi" is to prove that the word means "death" from which there is no resurrection, practical annihilation, a state from which salvation is impossible. This passage directly destroys this theory. Instead of the lost being beyond salvation, they alone are eligible for salvation. You cannot rescue a man who is save and sound. It is only when a man is in the state denoted by "apollumi" that salvation can operate in his behalf. Antithetical statements such as this are of great value in the study of words. The terms "seek" and "save," are accurate indications of the opposite of destroy. One who is "destroyed" must be lost or no one would seek him. He must be in a state which calls for salvation or Christ would not have come for him. This proves that destruction is a salvable condition, not a state beyond the reach of deliverance. Add to this the fact only the "lost" are "saved" and it reverses the usual theory of "destruction." God seeks what he has "lost." It is a sad fact that most Christians believe that Jesus is seeking to save the "lost" yet on the other hand they do not believe that He will save the "lost." They do not believe that Jesus will save "lost" mankind. Thus Jesus will not be successful in seeking and saving the lost.
"Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished (apollumi)." (1 Cor. 15:18) Are the Christians who are now sleeping deprived of future life? They are at present time "perished." They are now deprived of life, but in the future, they will be resurrected to life that is immortal.
"But if thy brother be grieve with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitable, destroy (apollumi) not him with thy meat for whom Christ died." (Rom. 14:15, compare 1 Cor. 8:11) According to these scriptures, we can destroy one of our brethren by eating foods which he deems unclean. Does our eating deprive him of life? That would be an easy way to commit legal murder.
Destruction is a relative term. The coin was lost in relation to the woman. (Luke 15:8,9) The sheep was destroyed as regards to the shepherd. (Luke 15:4-7) The prodigal son had perished in relation to his father. (Luke 15:11-32) So with the destroyed sheep of the house of Israel. (Matt. 10:5,6) They were not deprived of life, they were away from the great shepherd, their Creator. The prodigals were far off from their father who created them, who loves them, who commissioned His Son Jesus to come to seek and save them. Does this prove they were outside of this affair of salvation? It proves the opposite. Destruction is a prelude to salvation. It never means ultimate annihilation.
Quote from: Chris on January 29, 2010, 06:18:43 AM
That doesn't make it correct, but would it make sense to say that it would have been good for "the Son of Man" if "Judas" (through whom He would delivered up to be crucified) has not been born?
I believe that it does, particularly since it is "the Son of Man" (as opposed to "the Son of God") that is being referred to by Christ.
:smile:
:cloud9: Just to throw this in for good measure, there comes a time if you go on to follow the Lord, when a revelation comes to you personally, that it would be better if you had never been born (in the flesh) as Job did, and he is the one that received the DOUBLE PORTION. It's the revelation of the realization that all is vanity (Eccles.) Blessings....
Quote from: Lee Damboise on January 29, 2010, 09:56:19 PM
I believe there is one paramount scripture that should teach us what the word "apollumi" means. "For the Son of Man is come to seek and to save that which is lost (apollumi)." (Luke 19:10) This passage refers specifically to Zacchaeus; he was lost, destroyed. Because he was lost, he was ready to be found and saved.
Lee I agree with that but the way it formulated it can be misread (on purpose).
Like "ready to be found" means that the lost person has to want to be found. -> Repent etc.
But the coin was also "apollumi". And that coin didn't have any desire to be found.
I think that's a very important addition to that word and the whole lost/found teachings.
It means the truely lost will also be found. Some know they are lost. But do you think the lost muslim thinks s/he is lost because s/he doesn't follow Jesus.....?
Even if all Christians qualify to be found it would mean Salvation is a failure because Jesus was/is unable to save the whole world. And that world includes other religions also.
:2c:
He spent every penny, from a twopenny to an eighty penny; nailing it!
And do you know that the holding power of a common nail, drops by half within two days after being driven?
Now, that's Resurrection Power!
:thumbsup:
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 29, 2010, 10:26:26 PM
Quote from: Lee Damboise on January 29, 2010, 09:56:19 PM
I believe there is one paramount scripture that should teach us what the word "apollumi" means. "For the Son of Man is come to seek and to save that which is lost (apollumi)." (Luke 19:10) This passage refers specifically to Zacchaeus; he was lost, destroyed. Because he was lost, he was ready to be found and saved.
Lee I agree with that but the way it formulated it can be misread (on purpose).
Like "ready to be found" means that the lost person has to want to be found. -> Repent etc.
But the coin was also "apollumi". And that coin didn't have any desire to be found.
I think that's a very important addition to that word and the whole lost/found teachings.
It means the truely lost will also be found. Some know they are lost. But do you think the lost muslim thinks s/he is lost because s/he doesn't follow Jesus.....?
Even if all Christians qualify to be found it would mean Salvation is a failure because Jesus was/is unable to save the whole world. And that world includes other religions also.
:2c:
Taking your post at face value when do propose that those who worship under faiths without Jesus ........ when are they found ????
Blessings.
Doug
QuoteTaking your post at face value when do propose that those who worship under faiths without Jesus ........ when are they found ????
When I can't answer. That's not under our control. The coin only got found when the woman decided she has to search for it. The lost sheep was only found when the shepherd decided it was time to go search for that lost sheep. Only the prodical son saw his error and returned.
I think those parables even show 3 modes of salvation.
Prodical son: The son repented. He eventually knew he was wrong and his father was right.
The sheep: Not very sure about this one because I don't know what sheep think. But I think a sheep will notice he is no longer in the flock and likely wants to return. But can only do so with help of the shepherd.
The coin: Totally unaware of right and wrong.
No direct answer.... I simply don't have one....
My guess is after death. Simply because noone can deny that most have not found Jesus in this lifetime. And because the only way to Father is by the Son it means somehow they have to find or to be found by the Son after death.
?
Doug, same question of you, that is asked of Whitewings?
WW
First thanks for not quoting my whole post again and giving me a chance to properly place my reply after yours. :mblush:
QuoteNo direct answer.... I simply don't have one....
My guess is after death. Simply because no one can deny that most have not found Jesus in this lifetime. And because the only way to Father is by the Son it means somehow they have to find or to be found by the Son after death
Simply put I do not have a direct answer either and considering that ALL things are at some point albeit not neccessarily in time are reconciled unto Jesus does leave a lot unanswered. Because for sure according to scripture God does hold souls accountable after ones death and the books are not opened before the GWT without a reason.
When the goats are cast off is that to be assumed to be in this life?.......I do not think so and since goats are clean animals that unlike sheep who are followers, goats are a very stubborn lot preferring to hang out with horses so well that horse owners often buy a goat to keep their horse(s) company.
Then we have other things to consider such as the first will be last and the last shall be first. :Chinscratch:
For sure as a member of the Apostles Judas was a first that will IMO be the very last one other than other members of a possible corporate body of other Judas(s). Although some here seem to indicate that without his betrayal of Jesus that in their opinion made Jesus wish He had never been born :thumbdown: despite the fact that the scriptures teach some of us that for joy Jesus endured the Cross and for the Cross alone was the reason that He came to earth, IMO to say the least displays a high degree of qualifications that will not get one advanced to the head of the class .......
........ other than that my lips are sealed :msealed:
But I am with you and neither do I have a definite.
Blessings to you
Doug
PS Peacemaker....... I assume (hate that word) that is the "when" question.
Quote from: Livelystone on January 29, 2010, 11:34:46 PM
Although some here seem to indicate that without his betrayal of Jesus that in their opinion made Jesus wish He had never been born :thumbdown: despite the fact that the scriptures teach some of us that for joy Jesus endured the Cross and for the Cross alone was the reason that He came to earth, IMO to say the least displays a high degree of qualifications that will not get one advanced to the head of the class .......
I can't speak for others regarding "Jesus wished he never was born"
I strongly believe Jesus had a 100% drive to do His very best to follow orders of Father.
I also think He generally liked His life/job.
That said I can believe that Jesus wished He never had be born. For (parts of) His last day of His life.
Jesus was a man with a mission. But I don't think He enjoyed being tortured.
Quotejoy Jesus endured the Cross and for the Cross alone was the reason that He came to earth
No disagreement there.
I don't know exactly to word this....
Can't we seperate the pleasure Jesus had in His mission and the "wished never had to be born" of the torture? I think the following verse shows that.
KJV Matthew 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
QuoteSo, if it wasn't Judas — it would have been another.
For the plan HAD to be carried out.
100% :thumbsup:
Jesus CAME TO BE crucified for the world, to have His blood spilled to save all! Judas was obeying God to the fullest. If it wasn't Judas there would HAVE TO BE ANOTHER that would have betrayed Jesus. I believe that Judas' going to the grave the way he did WAS his punishment... could you imagine the shame and guilt you would have in the assisting of sending God's son to die? It must have been hard to live with, even if he didn't realize that he was fully obeying God at the time. God had everything planned out before it happened though, and thanks to Judas obeying God we now have salvation.
:2c: :icon_flower:
Quote from: Livelystone on January 29, 2010, 11:34:46 PM
Peacemaker....... I assume (hate that word) that is the "when" question.
No postulation, only integrity; a necessary prerequisite.
Thanks!
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 29, 2010, 11:50:05 PM
And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
Truth always prevails!
QuoteNo disagreement there.
I don't know exactly to word this....
Can't we seperate the pleasure Jesus had in His mission and the "wished never had to be born" of the torture? I think the following verse shows that.
KJV Matthew 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
Of course we can........ what Jesus went through for us cannot be overstated :HeartThrob:
I was just using that part to highlight my disagreement with some other posts that were not made by you.
When Jesus spoke of only loosing who was necessary to loose for the scriptures to be fulfilled IMO points both to Judas and that he suffered more lost than just an earthly allotment and a shameful death but was also resurrected to even more shame and dishonor......... Also there seems to be scriptural support for Absolom as a type and shadow of Judas who not only lost his life along with a future earthly throne but consequently lost any opportunity to be found in the linage of Jesus........ I think it does say something to when one FOREVER looses a possible position in the linage leading up to divinity in human form that they might otherwise have had a shot at.
Still on this part of Absolom I need to study up on it lest I might speak out of turn and I too suffer some shame and dishonor :laughing7:........ kinda just came to me as I was writing this
Peacemaker....... Was Judas obeying God when he betrayed Jesus........ nada not a chance brother. God NEVER tempts with sin let alone lead someone into it............ plus the scriptures say that it was Satan who entered into Judas's heart and therefore it was satan that led him to betray Jesus ......... that much you can take to the bank. :thumbsup:
Blessings
Doug
Judas stood with the other 11, and heard Jesus say this;
"Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28
Also there's this; The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. Rev. 21:14
Regeneration - Judas included. How does one overlook UR when reading these verses? (Not to mention God's love, power, grace, forgiveness, sovereignty!). :bowing:
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 29, 2010, 11:50:05 PM
I can't speak for others regarding "Jesus wished he never was born"
Jesus wished who had never been born?
I think that perhaps you are misunderstanding what is being said, at least by me if I am one of the ones you are referring to.
It is not about "Jesus" wishing that "he" (who? Judas? Himself?) had never been born.
Jesus was talking about THE SON OF MAN who was to be delivered up to be crucified by Judas. Why would it be "better" FOR HIM (THE SON OF MAN) if "that man" (HIS BETRAYER) had never been born?
Think of it spiritually as it applies to "the son OF MAN" and not just to the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. Can you not see how it would be "better" for the son OF MAN if "that man" (the son of perdition, typified in Judas) had never been born?
Quote
I strongly believe Jesus had a 100% drive to do His very best to follow orders of Father.
I also think He generally liked His life/job.
That said I can believe that Jesus wished He never had be born. For (parts of) His last day of His life.
Jesus was a man with a mission. But I don't think He enjoyed being tortured.
Jesus was not only the Son of God, but the son of man. Right? He "condemned sin in the flesh" making the flesh subject to the spirit, subject to the will of His Father/God, right?
And this is what we must do, as well, no?
Quote
No disagreement there.
I don't know exactly to word this....
Can't we seperate the pleasure Jesus had in His mission and the "wished never had to be born" of the torture? I think the following verse shows that.
KJV Matthew 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
What is your understanding of the "never been born" statement? Sorry but it's not clear to me who are you saying wished who was never born. :mblush:
Are you saying that you believe that Jesus was saying that He (Jesus) wished HE (Jesus, himself) had never been born?
Quote from: jabcat on January 30, 2010, 12:44:52 AM
Judas stood with the other 11, and heard Jesus say this;
"Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28
Also there's this; The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. Rev. 21:14
Regeneration - Judas included. How does one overlook UR when reading these verses? (Not to mention God's love, power, grace, forgiveness, sovereignty!). :bowing:
I'd assume that they believe that Judas' name was replaced with another's, but I've never actually heard anyone who doesn't believe in UR say one way or the other, I don't think.
I guess many would try to explain it away (as with many other things) but that's been something that's struck me since God showing me a little of His plan of reconciliation - the context of the first line of my post. Judas was standing there in Jesus' presence when He said that. Makes me think also that Judas was actually considered as having "followed" Jesus. As I stated earlier, I believe He was prepared as a vessel of dishonor, to play His role in the Big Plan - and to then be reconciled, broken, and reshaped by the Potter. Seems to me his brokeness had already begun - with his guilt, violent death, and burial. Notice Jesus references IN THE REGENERATION! :thumbsup:
John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
A "devil" and yet still "chosen". :thumbsup:
Yep. Pretty amazing. Sure doesn't fit orthodox theology very well.
"Absalom fled on a swift mule; but was found hanging on the branch of tree."
Was it Jesus' desire to proclaim himself, king?
Was it his desire to be pierced through with nails?
To be cast into a tomb, a grave covered with stone?
Cain was branded with the guilt of fratricide, much in the same way as Judas.
Except he wandered from place to place in adversity; calamity or distress, accusing others of
wanting to take his life. Interesting?
"The use of power with which God has imbued mankind is deadly, when wielded by corrupted flesh."
peacemaker
Quote from: Chris on January 30, 2010, 12:54:29 AM
Quote from: jabcat on January 30, 2010, 12:44:52 AM
Judas stood with the other 11, and heard Jesus say this;
"Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28
Also there's this; The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. Rev. 21:14
Regeneration - Judas included. How does one overlook UR when reading these verses? (Not to mention God's love, power, grace, forgiveness, sovereignty!). :bowing:
I'd assume that they believe that Judas' name was replaced with another's, but I've never actually heard anyone who doesn't believe in UR say one way or the other, I don't think.
Man picked Mathis to take Judas place but we never heard of him doing anything that showed that there was anything special about him. However when God picked one we see Paul who understood before the others the deep truths of the mysteries of God.
Fact is there are a lot of people picking pastors preachers, priests and so on but are they chosen by God? Paul was and it showed however Mathis was picked by man and that showed to.
Doug
Quote from: Chris on January 30, 2010, 12:52:01 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 29, 2010, 11:50:05 PM
I can't speak for others regarding "Jesus wished he never was born"
Jesus wished who had never been born?
I think that perhaps you are misunderstanding what is being said, at least by me if I am one of the ones you are referring to.
I didn't refer to anyone. Livelystone mentioned it and I just answer that I speak for myself. Not trying to prove or disprove anyone else. That's all.
QuoteNo disagreement there.
I don't know exactly to word this....
Can't we seperate the pleasure Jesus had in His mission and the "wished never had to be born" of the torture? I think the following verse shows that.
KJV Matthew 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
QuoteWhat is your understanding of the "never been born" statement? Sorry but it's not clear to me who are you saying wished who was never born. :mblush:
Depends on who explains it. Some translations are a bit vague. Others seem to be clear "that man" = Judas.
But articles that look at the original Greek are more mixed. Different versions of the original. No agreement on how to read it. A few month ago I saw a documentary about it on National Gegrahpic or History Channel. yeah I'm aware it's secular. The advantage of that is that they have no agenda about Judas. Some scholars were interviewed/quoted. The outcome was a little mixed but Judas might have been following orders.
But when I read Dutch and English translations I can say that several strongly point to Judas="that man" while others are just to vague to use. Perhaps because those translators saw the difficulty and tried to translate around the issue.
Personally I have no agenda to push. I don't care who it's about. I only want to know the true meaning. Judas killed himself so he certainly wasn't a happy man. Jesus sweated blood because of fear. No happy man either. So as far as I'm concerned it it was better for both not to be born.
Again not talking about the whole life. Just the last hours of pain.
In Dutch we have the same saying as that verse. But it's always about the moment of pain. Not the rest of the life. And that's another thing we should take care of. We shouldn't read how we use words. How did the culture at Jesus time use certain words. That's a thing not to be overlooked.
Plus there was for a very long time a misunderstanding that NT was written in the Greek that was know during the early translations. 200 (?) years ago it was discovered it was a dialect with it's own rules. I'm getting way off-topic here... I just want to say that some verses require (very) good understanding of Koine Greek. I don't have that. So I have to rely on articles. And when articles are mixed, it's very hard for me to make a choice. I don't want a choice that fits with my believes. In that case it would be very easy. Just pick the explanation I want.
A final thing I already mentioned. Satan entered Judas. A few verses before that Jesus prevented satan entering Peter. Why? Just because Jesus final hours had come? Or not to spoil a plan?
Quote from: jabcat on January 30, 2010, 12:44:52 AM
Judas stood with the other 11, and heard Jesus say this;
"Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28
Also there's this; The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. Rev. 21:14
Regeneration - Judas included. How does one overlook UR when reading these verses? (Not to mention God's love, power, grace, forgiveness, sovereignty!). :bowing:
Seems very UR at first sight......
Is someone that betrays (or more accurately hands over. different meaning) a follower?
That would mean Jesus spoke to only 11. So that's problematic too.
Surely Jesus wasn't unaware what Judas was going to do.
Does the verse show the great mercey of God? Or does it (also) show that Judas acted according to plan?
The fact that Judas although chosen was still taken over by satan certainly shows that one being chosen. saved, christian or otherwise does not prevent them from being used by satan to commit sins to fulfill his evil desires.
The fact that he through his transgression was removed from being one of the 12, translated means he was judged for his sin. Then in addition he went unto his own special place that there is no indication that it was anything else but during the resurrection and plenty of scriptures that do.
I say this because both Paul and Jesus warn us of Christians being judged in the resurrection for the sins they have committed in this life
He 6 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
So does Jesus
Luke 12: 5 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
Likewise when Jesus separates the sheep from the goats who also are "Christians" that takes place in the resurrection He then casts them off to the same place reserved for the devil and his angels. Then what about the story of lazarus and the rich man?....... They both called Abraham to be father signifying being chosen but one was being comforted while the other was being denied water for his thirst yet both were "sons"........ certainly judgement going on there and the rich man is most unhappy about it.
All of the above is what I was referring to when I said that where he was going to was no bed of roses and not just because he was ashamed and committed suicide......... but because it was judgement in the resurection.
Fact is Christians do not want to hear that that they will be judged in the resurrection for any of the sins that they have committed when the truth is that they will......... then we have UR advocates taking it even further preaching that even unbelievers do not get judged in the resurrection that contrary to what they think is not helping to win people to Christ.
AS far as Judas sitting on one of the 12 thrones judging Israel :thumbdown:.......... There is no scripture to support that theory and much to refute it. There no record of Judas following Jesus through the regeneration also that would have required both obedience from Judas as well as his presence at Pentecost instead of his absence........ Then on top of that the only one that Judas was being obedient to and following after was satan and not Jesus.
For sure Judas did not go to any place where I would ever want to be and the only question that remains is how long will he have to stay there at the special place reserved for him?............ because Judas was the one who would have been better off had he never been born :thumbsup:
Blessings
Doug
I guess we just see some of this regarding Judas differently, because I see the scriptures I presented as actually being 2 possible ones supporting the idea re: Judas' restoration. As I noted, Judas was present when Jesus said those things. I also believe Judas was fulfilling the role that he was set aside for. Sin, for sure - miserable in judgment, in need of repentance, forgiveness, redemption, for sure - but as with Adam and Eve and Pharoah, still playing his part as assigned.
Since I don't know every single detail of how God does things, I don't know that Judas either hasn't already been judged and corrected, or will be prior to the ruling and reigning events. I can study it out further, but I take Jesus referencing "the regeneration" to mean a later date, when He has judged and fixed things.
I don't know for sure, it just seems to be an interesting thought and possibility. I imagine there are things that are more important.
Also, I also don't advocate a passive acceptance of sin nor advocate living for the flesh. We reap what we sow, God will not be mocked, and there is a wide road that leads to destruction or a narrow path that leads to life. James.
Quote from: Livelystone on January 30, 2010, 09:07:28 AMAS far as Judas sitting on one of the 12 thrones judging Israel :thumbdown:.......... There is no scripture to support that theory and much to refute it.
No debate just a quetion.
"Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28
Judas was one of the 12 (at that time)
Only followers sit on the thrones.
If Judas is no follower who sits on the 12th throne?
But is the verse really speaking about 12 people? Surely there are more than 12 followers.
IIRC the saints are going to rule with Jesus during the 1000 years (literal or otherwise)
There are more than just 12 saints.
12 is as returning number. Could just as well mean 12 tribes. Or something else.
So my question is: Who is "you" in that verse?
(note: you is plural)
Quote from: jabcat on January 30, 2010, 10:05:20 AM
I guess we just see some of this regarding Judas differently, because I see the scriptures I presented as actually being 2 possible ones supporting the idea re: Judas' restoration. As I noted, Judas was present when Jesus said those things...
True, but I think much of the words of Jesus had a hidden (greater) meaning. So.... well read my previous reply to livelystone. :winkgrin:
Quote from: JabcatI also believe Judas was fulfilling the role that he was set aside for. Sin, for sure - miserable in judgment, in need of repentance, forgiveness, redemption, for sure - but as with Adam and Eve and Pharoah, still playing his part as assigned.
That's very hard to understand for me. Going to make a few assumptions to explain myself better....
I mentioned a documentary about Judas earlier. They claim certain writings found (not all in the Bible) hint toward/state that Jesus ordered Judas to do what he did.
That makes me think of: "I also believe Judas was fulfilling the role that he was set aside for."
So Judas followed orders of Jesus. Jesus followed the plan of Father.
Then how can obeying the 2 highest 'people' in existence be a sin against those same 'people'?
If Judas hands over Jesus he sins because he was partly responsible for the death of Jesus.
But if he didn't betray Jesus he would have ignored a direct command and that's also a sin.
And
IF that documentary is true I can very well imagine Judas wished he never was born. Judas is always seen as a traitor. An animal. But what if he dearly loved Jesus? And his part to play was helping the one he loved getting killed.
Just some thoughts. I haven't drawn a conclusion for myself yet. 50-50 right now.
:bigGrin:
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 30, 2010, 11:55:46 AM
Quote from: Livelystone on January 30, 2010, 09:07:28 AMAS far as Judas sitting on one of the 12 thrones judging Israel :thumbdown:.......... There is no scripture to support that theory and much to refute it.
No debate just a quetion.
"Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28
Judas was one of the 12 (at that time)
Only followers sit on the thrones.
If Judas is no follower who sits on the 12th throne?
But is the verse really speaking about 12 people? Surely there are more than 12 followers.
IIRC the saints are going to rule with Jesus during the 1000 years (literal or otherwise)
There are more than just 12 saints.
12 is as returning number. Could just as well mean 12 tribes. Or something else.
So my question is: Who is "you" in that verse?
(note: you is plural)
In order for a person to experience "being regenerated" they must take part in that part of the *first step* of "regeneration" that happens through receiving the Holy Spirit.......... and as you know the Holy Spirit was not given until Pentecost and we do not see Judas there.
Judas is never portrayed in a good light always being seen in a sinister role of deception using the treasury for his own design yet I wonder what was his reasoning behind betraying Jesus? I have heard different ideas that do have some degree of plausibility but nothing that ever sounded the gong for me.
Judas certainly experienced some type of repentance but so do most that are convicted of murder just as Cain
(who is compared to Judas) did but was worrying for his own future rather than the brother he murdered.
Neither do I think that there are just 12 individuals fulfilling any one role but that particular numbers point to a role being fulfilled...... That is repeated throughout the scheme of Bible mathematics and 12 is seen in 24 as well as in the 144,000
Regarding the gospel of Judas......... I have read some of the gnostic works but not that one. All I will say about any of them is that one should first posses discernment between good and evil if they are going to go enter into them. Problem is that most think that they posses that discernment when they do not. Words are the seeds that when given life by us create knowledge in the image that spawned them and there are only two original images obtained through knowledge that are good and evil. Consequently at best you have only a 50% chance of getting something good but what makes it worse is that evil at its best does not appear to be evil........ it is transformed to appear as a messenger of righteousness just like all the rest of the false doctrines first did that have taken over the church.
To Peacemaker........ In one of my replies mistakenly attributed the idea brought forth in this thread of Judas being obedient to God when he did what he did to you rather than who did post that erroneous word.......... I apologize to you and seek your forgiveness.
Blessings
Doug
Quote from: Livelystone on January 30, 2010, 06:18:51 PM
To Peacemaker........ In one of my replies mistakenly attributed the idea brought forth in this thread of Judas being obedient to God when he did what he did to you rather than who did post that erroneous word.......... I apologize to you and seek your forgiveness.
Blessings
Doug
If you are referring to me, Doug, I simply said: " Some say — that Judas can be viewed as obedient — more so than a traitor."
It is post No. 1 of this thread.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on January 30, 2010, 06:36:47 PM
Quote from: Livelystone on January 30, 2010, 06:18:51 PM
To Peacemaker........ In one of my replies mistakenly attributed the idea brought forth in this thread of Judas being obedient to God when he did what he did to you rather than who did post that erroneous word.......... I apologize to you and seek your forgiveness.
Blessings
Doug
If you are referring to me, Doug, I simply said: " Some say — that Judas can be viewed as obedient — more so than a traitor."
It is post No. 1 of this thread.
No I was not............ although the "some" that you have referred to in your post are in error the post I was referring to was made by forum member "Syndicated"
Blessings
Doug
Quote from: Livelystone on January 30, 2010, 05:29:25 AM
Man picked Mathis to take Judas place but we never heard of him doing anything that showed that there was anything special about him. However when God picked one we see Paul who understood before the others the deep truths of the mysteries of God.
Fact is there are a lot of people picking pastors preachers, priests and so on but are they chosen by God? Paul was and it showed however Mathis was picked by man and that showed to.
Doug
Many will say that even Paul called himself and was not chosen by God. They will dismiss anything that Paul says that they think is "contradictory" to the rest of scripture. And even those who don't think that put Peter ahead of Paul because they claim that Christ said that He would build his church "on Peter".
I think the important difference between Paul and the rest of the Apostles - who where specifically chosen to be "witnesses" of Christ's death and resurrection so had to know Christ AFTER THE FLESH - was that Paul didn't know Christ after the flesh but had Christ revealed to Him by revelation, through THE SPIRIT.
And neither are we to know Christ after the flesh, as we are to know know NO MAN after flesh. Yet how many divide things according to the flesh anyway? Even those who claim to be "spiritually minded"? For example, there are still many, even in the UR camps, that will not allow "a woman" (according to a carnal truth, rather than a spiritual one) "to teach" because they still judge things "according to the flesh" and they have no clue who "the woman" is that Paul said he would not allow to teach. But that is for another topic. :winkgrin:
WOW lots of replies which I am not able to read at this time. I did however, want to clarify that I in no way implied that Judas' betrayal made Jesus "wish He had never been born." That is not what that scripture declared at all. Jesus said "better" for the "son of man" that "that man" had not been born. My point in bringing this out is that there is more being said here (and worthy of further consideration) than what is generally understood.
:girlheart:
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 30, 2010, 06:54:52 AM
Quote from: Chris on January 30, 2010, 12:52:01 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 29, 2010, 11:50:05 PM
I can't speak for others regarding "Jesus wished he never was born"
Jesus wished who had never been born?
I think that perhaps you are misunderstanding what is being said, at least by me if I am one of the ones you are referring to.
I didn't refer to anyone. Livelystone mentioned it and I just answer that I speak for myself. Not trying to prove or disprove anyone else. That's all.
It wasn't an accusation. I was just trying to clarify what I said as I am one of the others who addressed that passage. But I did not say that "Jesus wished he never was born". I don't recall anyone saying that, but wasn't sure who the "he" was in your sentence either so was wondering.
Quote
Depends on who explains it. Some translations are a bit vague. Others seem to be clear "that man" = Judas.
But articles that look at the original Greek are more mixed. Different versions of the original. No agreement on how to read it. A few month ago I saw a documentary about it on National Gegrahpic or History Channel. yeah I'm aware it's secular. The advantage of that is that they have no agenda about Judas. Some scholars were interviewed quoted. The outcome was a little mixed but it Judas might have been following orders.
But when I read Dutch and English translations then I can say that several strongly point to Judas="that man" while others are just to vague to use. Perhaps because those translators saw the difficulty and tried to translate around the issue.
Personally I have no agenda to push. I don't care who it's about. I only want to know the true meaning. Judas killed himself so he certainly wasn't a happy man. Jesus sweated blood because of fear. No happy man either. So as far as I'm concerned it it was better for both not to be born.
Again not talking about the whole life. Just the last hours is pain.
In Dutch we have the same saying as that verse. But it's always about the moment of pain. Not the rest of the life. And that's another thing we should take care of. We shouldn't read how we use words. How did the culture at Jesus time use certain words. That's a thing not to be overlooked.
Plus there was for a very long time a misunderstanding that NT was written in the Greek that was know during the early translations. 200 (?) years ago it was discovered it was a dialect with it's own rules. I'm getting way off-topic here... I just want to say that some verses require (very) good understanding of Koine Greek. I don't have that. So I have to rely on articles. And when articles are mixed, it's very hard for me to make a choice. I don't want a choice that fits with my believes. In that case it would be very easy. Just pick the explanation I want.
A final thing I already mentioned. Satan entered Judas. A few verses before that Jesus prevented satan entering Peter. Why? Just because Jesus final hours had come? Or not to spoil a plan?
history channel
It does seem pretty evident that "that man" is Judas since he is named in the passage and we know with certainty who it was (Judas) that betrayed the Lord. And I agree that the rest can be confusing and there are varying opinions about it.
I don't know that I believe that Jesus did sweat blood (literally), as Luke says he sweat "as if" (hōsei) it were great drops of blood. So while it's possible I'm not sure that it the point, but I think that it is significant that is describes as "falling down to the ground". :thumbsup:
What are you referring to when you say that Jesus prevented Satan from entering into Peter?
:cloud9: Not saying He did or didn't, but I read a doctor's account of Calvary, and it is physiologically possible to "sweat" blood through the capillaries close to the surface of the skin when in extreme stress.
I personally think He did, for the scriptural reason that sweat was an offense in the sanctuary, which is why the HG does the works, and He IS the sanctuary. Blessings....
Quote from: Livelystone on January 30, 2010, 12:31:57 AM
Peacemaker....... Was Judas obeying God when he betrayed Jesus........ nada not a chance brother. God NEVER tempts with sin let alone lead someone into it............ plus the scriptures say that it was Satan who entered into Judas's heart and therefore it was satan that led him to betray Jesus ......... that much you can take to the bank. :thumbsup:
Quote from: Livelystone on January 30, 2010, 06:18:51 PM
To Peacemaker........ In one of my replies mistakenly attributed the idea brought forth in this thread of Judas being obedient to God when he did what he did to you rather than who did post that erroneous word.......... I apologize to you and seek your forgiveness.
I took it as a question that was in the form of a statement, and the thumbs up appeared to collaborate this understanding.
I do appreciate the thoughtfulness which entered your heart and mind, although, there is no need to apologize.
Blessings to you, brother Doug.
Quote from: Chris on January 30, 2010, 07:38:10 PM
It does seem pretty evident that "that man" is Judas since he is named in the passage and we know with certainty who it was (Judas) that betrayed the Lord. And I agree that the rest can be confusing and there are varying opinions about it.
Judas was certainly part of the deal. But the word betrayed....
Among other things that was topic in the documentary. What is translated as betrayed can also mean 'to hand over'
Betrayed is always negative. 'hand over not' always. Strong confirms that.
The the "Judas kiss" also seen as negative etc. But that's also doubted. Could also be some sort of fare well kiss.
In a loving manner.
Judas was involved. That's 100% sure. But his exact role is unclear. At least it's to me....
QuoteI don't know that I believe that Jesus did sweat blood (literally), as Luke says he sweat "as if" (hōsei) it were great drops of blood.
It's possible and medically accepted. Just Google for sweating blood.
One quote:
QuoteAlthough this medical condition is relatively rare, according to Dr. Frederick Zugibe (Chief Medical Examiner of Rockland County, New York) it is well-known, and there have been many cases of it. The clinical term is "hematohidrosis." "Around the sweat glands, there are multiple blood vessels in a net-like form." Under the pressure of great stress the vessels constrict. Then as the anxiety passes "the blood vessels dilate to the point of rupture. The blood goes into the sweat glands." As the sweat glands are producing a lot of sweat, it pushes the blood to the surface - coming out as droplets of blood mixed with sweat.
QuoteSo while it's possible I'm not sure that it the point, but I think that it is significant that is describes as "falling down to the ground". :thumbsup:
While I can see the significance of blood+ground it also shows the extreme stress Jesus was under. And
in that hour Jesus might wished He was not born.
QuoteWhat are you referring to when you say that Jesus prevented Satan from entering into Peter?
Luke 22:31-32 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: 32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
Quote from: Livelystone on January 30, 2010, 09:07:28 AM
The fact that Judas although chosen was still taken over by satan certainly shows that one being chosen. saved, christian or otherwise does not prevent them from being used by satan to commit sins to fulfill his evil desires.
Is anyone out of satan's reach? Even Paul spoke of struggling with the flesh and doing those things which he desired not to do and being unable to do that which he desired to do. Right?
Quote
The fact that he through his transgression was removed from being one of the 12, translated means he was judged for his sin.
He was judged and removed by whom?
Quote
Then in addition he went unto his own special place that there is no indication that it was anything else but during the resurrection and plenty of scriptures that do.
He went to his grave. A natural shadow of a spiritual truth that applies to all who sin, does it not? Do we not all "remain in the graves" ("the body of this death" that Paul spoke of) UNTIL we hear the voice of the Lord calling us OUT of it?
Quote
I say this because both Paul and Jesus warn us of Christians being judged in the resurrection for the sins they have committed in this life
He 6 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
What does it mean to taste the good word of God and the powers of the age to come? Doesn't the chapter start out with "
let us go on unto perfection"? So isn't Paul talking about going on "unto perfection"? Talking about the difference between "a child" (which differs nothing from a servant) and "A SON" (one who has Christ formed IN THEM)?
Who is this applicable to? Those who have died or those who are living?
Quote
So does Jesus
Luke 12: 5 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
Christ comes the second time unto them that look for Him; we are told to WATCH for His appearing and He has promised not to leave us COMFORTLESS.
CHRIST IN YOU, the hope of glory. Right?
So, again I have to ask, does this have to do with those who have died or those who are living?
With regard to being beaten with many or few stripes, it is not "in the earth" that both the righteous and the wicked are recompensed?
Pro 11:31
Behold, the righteous shall be recompensed in the earth: much more the wicked and the sinner.
Even "into their bosom"?
Isa 65:6
Behold, it is written before me: I will not keep silence, but will recompense, even recompense into their bosom,
Quote
Likewise when Jesus separates the sheep from the goats who also are "Christians" that takes place in the resurrection He then casts them off to the same place reserved for the devil and his angels.
Yet, Jesus Christ is THE resurrection and THE life, right? (1 John 11:25) And we are first DRAGGED IN before those without a wedding garment are (bound hand and foot) CAST OUT.
Jesus said:
Joh 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
NOW is the judgment of this world, according to Christ. We are judged by the cross of Christ, are we not? So why are we still looking for judgment? This life isn't "hell" enough for anyone?
Quote
Then what about the story of lazarus and the rich man?....... They both called Abraham to be father signifying being chosen but one was being comforted while the other was being denied water for his thirst yet both were "sons"........ certainly judgement going on there and the rich man is most unhappy about it.
Where did Lazarus call Abraham "father"? He was caught up to the bosom of Abraham while the rich man (who called Abraham "father") found himself "in hades" and was "tormented in this flame" (singular - that was ON HIS TONGUE).
Note that ONLY THE RICH MAN was "buried".
This parable is not about judgment in the "afterlife".
Quote
All of the above is what I was referring to when I said that where he was going to was no bed of roses and not just because he was ashamed and committed suicide......... but because it was judgement in the resurection.
We are judged HERE.
Quote
Fact is Christians do not want to hear that that they will be judged in the resurrection for any of the sins that they have committed when the truth is that they will......... then we have UR advocates taking it even further preaching that even unbelievers do not get judged in the resurrection that contrary to what they think is not helping to win people to Christ.
Jesus Christ himself is the one who said NOW IS THE JUDGMENT OF THIS WORLD, Doug. Scripture says that we are judged IN THE EARTH, even INTO OUR BOSOMS. We REAP what we SOW.
We are called NOW to be reconciled to God - OR FACE JUDGMENT! The wrath of God abides upon (present tense, according to Paul) those who believe not. Does it not?
Quote
AS far as Judas sitting on one of the 12 thrones judging Israel :thumbdown:.......... There is no scripture to support that theory and much to refute it. There no record of Judas following Jesus through the regeneration also that would have required both obedience from Judas as well as his presence at Pentecost instead of his absence........ Then on top of that the only one that Judas was being obedient to and following after was satan and not Jesus.
Judas was still one of the ones who that promise was made to. Could he have lost His reward? Sure. But does that mean that He did and God will not fulfill that promise? I wouldn't want to be the one to say so without more to go on than the fact that Judas killed himself.
What happened at Pentecost speaks to a higher spiritual truth that are not limited to that one day in time.
Quote
For sure Judas did not go to any place where I would ever want to be and the only question that remains is how long will he have to stay there at the special place reserved for him?
He went to the grave where we all go, whether according to a carnal truth or a spiritual one.
Quote
because Judas was the one who would have been better off had he never been born :thumbsup:
Interesting. So then all who are cast into the lake of fire would have been "better off" not having ever been born? Is that what you are saying?
I was not claiming that Jesus didn't sweat blood or that it is not possible. I even said in my post that it was possible.
I am very aware that, medically, it is possible.
I was just pointing out that it is not stated in such a way that makes it a "fact". I gave the Greek word, which seems to me to indicate that Luke was saying that His SWEAT was "as if it were" GREAT DROP OF BLOOD, but not that is "was".
I certainly have no problem with it being either. I think the point is more of the anguish that He suffered and I think that the fact that his sweat/blood (literally or figurative) falls to the ground and even (spiritually) COVERS THE EARTH is quite beautiful.
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 30, 2010, 08:06:30 PM
Quote from: ChrisWhat are you referring to when you say that Jesus prevented Satan from entering into Peter?
Luke 22:31-32 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: 32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
Thanks! You said it was something written "a few verses before" satan entered Judas (Luke 22:3 and John 13;27) and I could not find anything there except Jesus washing the feet of His disciples, so I wasn't sure what you were referring to, if not that.
But the fact that Jesus prayed for Peter's faith not to fail (knowing what satans desire is) didn't prevent Peter from stumbling; even before that Jesus said to Peter "get thee behind me satan".
Peter seems to stumble several times; you don't attribute that to satan (sin lying at the door, ready to devour us if we don't rule over it)?
Quote from: Chris on January 30, 2010, 08:51:14 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 30, 2010, 08:06:30 PM
Quote from: ChrisWhat are you referring to when you say that Jesus prevented Satan from entering into Peter?
Luke 22:31-32 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: 32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
Thanks! You said it was something written "a few verses before" satan entered Judas (Luke 22:3 and John 13;27)
Whoops. Shoulda checked before I wrote that from memory.
QuoteBut the fact that Jesus prayed for Peter's faith not to fail (knowing what satans desire is) didn't prevent Peter from stumbling; even before that Jesus said to Peter "get thee behind me satan".
Perhaps the prayer of Jesus only had effect on a certain unmentioned stumbling?
The way you write it, it sounds like you are saying the prayer of Jesus failed. And I think you are not trying to say that.
I'm sure Jesus prayed often to stop stumbling. Not every word/action of Jesus is written down.
Then I wonder why is this time so special that it is written down? Just to show the powers of Jesus?
Maybe so. But personally I think there are other reasons to mention it. A connection with Judas? I'm no scholar. Far faaaaar from it :winkgrin: But I learned one thing: A verse never has just only one simple meaning.
Just thinking out loud.
QuotePeter seems to stumble several times; you don't attribute that to satan (sin lying at the door, ready to devour us if we don't rule over it)?
Prepare for another vague answer...
Before I started reading TentMaker it was simple for me. If I do something bad it's me to blame.
Some Christian think it's being under control of Satan. But on TentMaker (and Ray's site) I've read other views. Just to not derail this thread I mention that satan got permission of God to test Job. So yes most certainly Peter stumbled. But who is/are to blame :sigh:
Typical case of: When you learn more you know you know less :laughing7:
Not saying I fully understand this, but it seems to me that somehow in the whole scheme of things, whatever our lot in life is, we're still accountable. For instance, even though Judas was vessel of dishonor, it didn't mean that what he did wasn't sin, or that he didn't need to be forgiven and "fixed". Again, can't fully explain it, but if I sin, it may be the "law of sin and death working in me", but it's still IN ME, so I'm held accountable for it. That's why the confession on my part and the forgiveness on God's part. :Chinscratch:
Quote from: jabcat on January 30, 2010, 09:27:09 PMAgain, can't fully explain it, but if I sin, it may be the "law of sin and death working in me", but it's still IN ME, so I'm held accountable for it. That's why the confession on my part and the forgiveness on God's part. :Chinscratch:
If the sin is in you and you are able to stop it then you are to blame.
But satan seems only to be outpowered by Father, Son and HS.
2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Sounds like a David and Goliath fight. It's uncommon for the David's (we) of this world to win of Goliath (satan). It's possible. But the odds are very bad I think.
Quotebut it's still IN ME, so I'm held accountable for it.
Are you accountable losing a fight with Goliath?
Quote from: Chris on January 30, 2010, 08:28:16 PM
Quote from: Livelystone on January 30, 2010, 09:07:28 AM
The fact that Judas although chosen was still taken over by satan certainly shows that one being chosen. saved, christian or otherwise does not prevent them from being used by satan to commit sins to fulfill his evil desires.
Is anyone out of satan's reach? Even Paul spoke of struggling with the flesh and doing those things which he desired not to do and being unable to do that which he desired to do. Right?
Quote
The fact that he through his transgression was removed from being one of the 12, translated means he was judged for his sin.
He was judged and removed by whom?
Quote
Then in addition he went unto his own special place that there is no indication that it was anything else but during the resurrection and plenty of scriptures that do.
He went to his grave. A natural shadow of a spiritual truth that applies to all who sin, does it not? Do we not all "remain in the graves" ("the body of this death" that Paul spoke of) UNTIL we hear the voice of the Lord calling us OUT of it?
Quote
I say this because both Paul and Jesus warn us of Christians being judged in the resurrection for the sins they have committed in this life
He 6 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
What does it mean to taste the good word of God and the powers of the age to come? Doesn't the chapter start out with "let us go on unto perfection"? So isn't Paul talking about going on "unto perfection"? Talking about the difference between "a child" (which differs nothing from a servant) and "A SON" (one who has Christ formed IN THEM)?
Who is this applicable to? Those who have died or those who are living?
Quote
So does Jesus
Luke 12: 5 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
Christ comes the second time unto them that look for Him; we are told to WATCH for His appearing and He has promised not to leave us COMFORTLESS.
CHRIST IN YOU, the hope of glory. Right?
So, again I have to ask, does this have to do with those who have died or those who are living?
With regard to being beaten with many or few stripes, it is not "in the earth" that both the righteous and the wicked are recompensed?
Pro 11:31 Behold, the righteous shall be recompensed in the earth: much more the wicked and the sinner.
Even "into their bosom"?
Isa 65:6 Behold, it is written before me: I will not keep silence, but will recompense, even recompense into their bosom,
Quote
Likewise when Jesus separates the sheep from the goats who also are "Christians" that takes place in the resurrection He then casts them off to the same place reserved for the devil and his angels.
Yet, Jesus Christ is THE resurrection and THE life, right? (1 John 11:25) And we are first DRAGGED IN before those without a wedding garment are (bound hand and foot) CAST OUT.
Jesus said:
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
NOW is the judgment of this world, according to Christ. We are judged by the cross of Christ, are we not? So why are we still looking for judgment? This life isn't "hell" enough for anyone?
Quote
Then what about the story of lazarus and the rich man?....... They both called Abraham to be father signifying being chosen but one was being comforted while the other was being denied water for his thirst yet both were "sons"........ certainly judgement going on there and the rich man is most unhappy about it.
Where did Lazarus call Abraham "father"? He was caught up to the bosom of Abraham while the rich man (who called Abraham "father") found himself "in hades" and was "tormented in this flame" (singular - that was ON HIS TONGUE).
Note that ONLY THE RICH MAN was "buried".
This parable is not about judgment in the "afterlife".
Quote
All of the above is what I was referring to when I said that where he was going to was no bed of roses and not just because he was ashamed and committed suicide......... but because it was judgement in the resurection.
We are judged HERE.
Quote
Fact is Christians do not want to hear that that they will be judged in the resurrection for any of the sins that they have committed when the truth is that they will......... then we have UR advocates taking it even further preaching that even unbelievers do not get judged in the resurrection that contrary to what they think is not helping to win people to Christ.
Jesus Christ himself is the one who said NOW IS THE JUDGMENT OF THIS WORLD, Doug. Scripture says that we are judged IN THE EARTH, even INTO OUR BOSOMS. We REAP what we SOW.
We are called NOW to be reconciled to God - OR FACE JUDGMENT! The wrath of God abides upon (present tense, according to Paul) those who believe not. Does it not?
Quote
AS far as Judas sitting on one of the 12 thrones judging Israel :thumbdown:.......... There is no scripture to support that theory and much to refute it. There no record of Judas following Jesus through the regeneration also that would have required both obedience from Judas as well as his presence at Pentecost instead of his absence........ Then on top of that the only one that Judas was being obedient to and following after was satan and not Jesus.
Judas was still one of the ones who that promise was made to. Could he have lost His reward? Sure. But does that mean that He did and God will not fulfill that promise? I wouldn't want to be the one to say so without more to go on than the fact that Judas killed himself.
What happened at Pentecost speaks to a higher spiritual truth that are not limited to that one day in time.
Quote
For sure Judas did not go to any place where I would ever want to be and the only question that remains is how long will he have to stay there at the special place reserved for him?
He went to the grave where we all go, whether according to a carnal truth or a spiritual one.
Quote
because Judas was the one who would have been better off had he never been born :thumbsup:
Interesting. So then all who are cast into the lake of fire would have been "better off" not having ever been born? Is that what you are saying?
Chris
I have looked your post over and I disagreee with just about all that you say so this this is my reply. :sigh:
First off there is not a single question posed by you that you cannot find the answer to yourself if you approach the scriptures and God with a contrite heart. I do not care if it takes you desiring to prove me wrong to get you to search the Scriptures in accordance with God's way to acquire Godly wisdom because understand this ....... I am not trying to talk you into anything simply because if I can do that then someone else will come along and talk you into something else........... fair enough?
But I will ask you to ponder this
The only thing that goes to an earthly grave is an earthly body and that earthly body is not physically dead until the spirit leaves it and that happens BEFORE the physical body is in a grave (
or at least it better :laughing7:) ............ and when that spirit leaves that earthly body it goes straight to God where it stands before the GWT.....Besides having witnessed that happening in my own testimony that has been posted here there are multiple witness to support that teaching in the scriptures but you need to acquire them for yourself rather than just hear about them from me or anyone else........... Otherwise it just gets repetitive.
Regarding the perfection we are to move forward into IF GOD BE WILLING is only after the seven foundational doctrines are FIRST understood by the individual seeking to be moved forward.
Because you do not search out knowledge in accordance to laws given to Moses you are running into the same problems here that you did in your statements regarding the "living soul" over in the soul sleep thread.
Not understanding those doctrines is showing up in your questions to me so my advice to you is easy to be understood........ search out those required doctrinal foundations and you will answer your own questions. :thumbsup:
Blessings
Doug
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 30, 2010, 09:51:27 PM
Quote from: jabcat on January 30, 2010, 09:27:09 PMAgain, can't fully explain it, but if I sin, it may be the "law of sin and death working in me", but it's still IN ME, so I'm held accountable for it. That's why the confession on my part and the forgiveness on God's part. :Chinscratch:
If the sin is in you and you are able to stop it then you are to blame.
But satan seems only to be outpowered by Father, Son and HS.
2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Sounds like a David and Goliath fight. It's uncommon for the David's (we) of this world to win of Goliath (satan). It's possible. But the odds are very bad I think.
Quotebut it's still IN ME, so I'm held accountable for it.
Are you accountable losing a fight with Goliath?
I hear what you're saying. Right now, the "answer" that comes to mind for further consideration and placement within the equation is this - If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
I Jn. 1:9
That is if you aware of sin.... Kneeling to false gods is sin. Muslims do so for example? Are they aware of it? No. But hey are just as sure thet they kneel for the right god as anyone on this forum. That's the nasty thing of deception. Very few can spot it. Because it presents itself as a angel of light. I think being aware of being wrong is a major part of the battle...
You are a prodical son trying to find home.
But the world is also full of lost sheep that can't find the way home.
And likely there are even more coins that don''t even know they are lost...
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 30, 2010, 09:15:14 PM
Whoops. Shoulda checked before I wrote that from memory.
Not a problem. Just wanted to make sure I knew exactly what you were referring to before I responded to it. :thumbsup:
QuotePerhaps the prayer of Jesus only had effect on a certain unmentioned stumbling?
The way you write it, it sounds like you are saying the prayer of Jesus failed. And I think you are not trying to say that.
No, I am not saying that at all. I don't think that because we stumble that our faith has failed.
QuoteI'm sure Jesus prayed often to stop stumbling. Not every word/action of Jesus is written down.
Perhaps, but he did not pray that Peter would not stumble, but that his faith would not fail.
QuoteThen I wonder why is this time so special that it is written down? Just to show the powers of Jesus?
Maybe so. But personally I think there are other reasons to mention it. A connection with Judas? I'm no scholar. Far faaaaar from it :winkgrin: But I learned one thing: A verse never has just only one simple meaning.
Just thinking out loud.
I would probably agree with you.
Quote from: WhiteWingsQuote from: ChrisPeter seems to stumble several times; you don't attribute that to satan (sin lying at the door, ready to devour us if we don't rule over it)?
Prepare for another vague answer...
Before I started reading TentMaker it was simple for me. If I do something bad it's me to blame.
Some Christian think it's being under control of Satan. But on TentMaker (and Ray's site) I've read other views. Just to not derail this thread I mention that satan got permission of God to test Job. So yes most certainly Peter stumbled. But who is/are to blame :sigh:
Well since I don't see "satan" as an independent spiritual being who is capable of "controlling" anyone I'd have to agree that the one to blame for the sin is the one sinning.
Quote
Typical case of: When you learn more you know you know less :laughing7:
Indeed!! Know that feeling very well!! :laughing7:
Quote from: Chris on January 30, 2010, 10:52:53 PM
QuoteI'm sure Jesus prayed often to stop stumbling. Not every word/action of Jesus is written down.
Perhaps, but he did not pray that Peter would not stumble, but that his faith would not fail.
Although I see a difference between stumbling and faith I also see lots of overlap. And because I'm kinda puzzled about the whole Judas 'story', context doesn't do much good to either.
But I'm not to worried about it I'm used to having lots of pieces that don't fit. Then suddenly I find an insignificant looking key that puts dozens of pieces in their place. Could be today. Could be next month. Could be another age. :icon_jokercolor:
Quote from: Chris on January 30, 2010, 10:52:53 PM
Well since I don't see "satan" as an independent spiritual being who is capable of "controlling" anyone I'd have to agree that the one to blame for the sin is the one sinning.
Who does satan depend on then?
And in this context how do you define "independent"?
a] Being controled. (I'm thinking of Job)
b] Needing weakness to feed on. (I'm thinking of eating dust....)
Quote from: Livelystone on January 30, 2010, 10:00:00 PM
Chris
I have looked your post over and I disagreee with just about all that you say so this this is my reply. :sigh:
First off there is not a single question posed by you that you cannot find the answer to yourself if you approach the scriptures and God with a contrite heart. I do not care if it takes you desiring to prove me wrong to get you to search the Scriptures in accordance with God's way to acquire Godly wisdom because understand this ....... I am not trying to talk you into anything simply because if I can do that then someone else will come along and talk you into something else........... fair enough?
But I will ask you to ponder this
The only thing that goes to an earthly grave is an earthly body and that earthly body is not physically dead until the spirit leaves it and that happens BEFORE the physical body is in a grave (or at least it better :laughing7:) ............ and when that spirit leaves that earthly body it goes straight to God where it stands before the GWT.....Besides having witnessed that happening in my own testimony that has been posted here there are multiple witness to support that teaching in the scriptures but you need to acquire them for yourself rather than just hear about them from me or anyone else........... Otherwise it just gets repetitive.
Regarding the perfection we are to move forward into IF GOD BE WILLING is only after the seven foundational doctrines are FIRST understood by the individual seeking to be moved forward.
Because you do not search out knowledge in accordance to laws given to Moses you are running into the same problems here that you did in your statements regarding the "living soul" over in the soul sleep thread.
Not understanding those doctrines is showing up in your questions to me so my advice to you is easy to be understood........ search out those required doctrinal foundations and you will answer your own questions. :thumbsup:
Blessings
Doug
Doug, can you tell me why you always disagree with my posts and come back correcting me about things that I never said in them, if you are actually reading my posts? :grin:
For example, I never denied that the spirit returns to God when the physical body dies. :laughing7:
But this thread is about Judas, so I am not going to derail it by getting into another discussion about soul sleep. I shouldn't have even addressed that part of your post to begin with I guess but others were talking about Judas in relation to the resurrection so I was willing to touch on it from that perspective (because I don't believe that Judas is still waiting to be resurrected and face judgment). :winkgrin:
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 30, 2010, 11:10:10 PM
Quote from: Chris on January 30, 2010, 10:52:53 PM
Well since I don't see "satan" as an independent spiritual being who is capable of "controlling" anyone I'd have to agree that the one to blame for the sin is the one sinning.
Who does satan depend on then?
And in this context how do you define "independent"?
a] Being controled. (I'm thinking of Job)
b] Needing weakness to feed on. (I'm thinking of eating dust....)
I see "satan" as man's carnal mind (or "the lusts of the flesh").
It is the carnal mind that is "enmity" against God and that is not subject to the laws of God, isn't it? It is through the minds/hearts of men that sin is conceived, isn't it?
Joh 13:1-2
Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end. And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him; Jam 1:14-15
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
We see this in the garden with Eve, as well as in the temptation of Christ (though Christ was not enticed to sin). Right?
willieH: Hello to all :hithere:
Haven't read any of the posts in this discussion, so I don't know what has been said (I plan to read it.)
But if the Lamb was SLAIN from the foundation of the WORLD as Scripture notes... then His "slayers" were as ordained to be whoever they were, and do whatever they did... :cloud9: For what they "did" was WRITTEN.
And had they NOT
done what they
did the Scriptures would be broken, and
none of us would have Salvation from sin. :sigh:
So as far as "Judas' shame"... IMO -- that was some pretty NEEDFUL shame. :dontknow:
...willieH :HeartThrob:
Acts 1 ; 15 During this time, when about 120 believers
were together in one place, Peter stood up and addressed them.
16 "Brothers," he said, "the Scriptures had to be fulfilled concerning Judas, who guided those who arrested Jesus.
This was predicted long ago by the Holy Spirit, speaking through King David. 17 Judas was one of us and shared in the ministry with us."
18 (Judas had bought a field with the money he received for his treachery. Falling headfirst there, his body split open, spilling out all his intestines. 19 The news of his death spread to all the people of Jerusalem, and they gave the place the Aramaic name Akeldama, which means "Field of Blood.")
20 Peter continued, "This was written in the book of Psalms, where it says, 'Let his home become desolate, with no one living in it.' It also says, 'Let someone else take his position.'[e]
21 "So now we must choose a replacement for Judas from among the men who were with us the entire time we were traveling with the Lord Jesus—22 from the time he was baptized by John until the day he was taken from us. Whoever is chosen will join us as a witness of Jesus' resurrection."
its a witness and warning to me of those whom Christ is betrayed the shedding of innocent blood ....
it was also fortold , but does not make it any easier to go through though .... :mblush:
we can also bank on a desolate house .............
the Spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus Christ ,, the world hated Him
Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
Mat 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
Mat 23:33 [Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and [some] of them ye shall kill and crucify; and [some] of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute [them] from city to city:
Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Mat 23:37 ¶ O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!
Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Mat 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
psalms 69 .............
They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.
Psa 69:22 Let their table become a snare before them: and [that which should have been] for [their] welfare, [let it become] a trap.
Psa 69:23 Let their eyes be darkened, that they see not; and make their loins continually to shake.
Psa 69:24 Pour out thine indignation upon them, and let thy wrathful anger take hold of them.
Psa 69:25 Let their habitation be desolate; [and] let none dwell in their tents.
Psa 69:26 For they persecute [him] whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded.
Psa 69:27 Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness.
Psa 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.
seems a sad end ???
QuoteQuote from: Chris on January 30, 2010, 11:11:53 PM
Doug, can you tell me why you always disagree with my posts and come back correcting me about things that I never said in them, if you are actually reading my posts? :grin:
For example, I never denied that the spirit returns to God when the physical body dies. :laughing7:
But this thread is about Judas, so I am not going to derail it by getting into another discussion about soul sleep. I shouldn't have even addressed that part of your post to begin with I guess but others were talking about Judas in relation to the resurrection so I was willing to touch on it from that perspective (because I don't believe that Judas is still waiting to be resurrected and face judgment). :winkgrin:
Chris
Following your line of thought at times is difficult at best
After this thread spends some time chasing down the identity of who "him" is, you say that you never meant that "HIM"
(in who would be better off never being born) was anybody but Judas
(post 46) but at the bottom of post # 24 it certainly seems that you are presenting that exact same line of thought you are denying to have done in 46.
When I am pointing out of Judas being judged in the afterlife of "not going to bed of roses" you twist that to saying yes his shame was his punishment and that he went to his grave in shame and that is it
(when nothing could further from the truth)Then you turn and say say ....... "of course the spirit goes back to God" but leaving out the judgement it receives.
You talk about going on to perfection but then you skip the foundation that perfection requires as if it is not required.
Not that I look to others for support but I am not the only here who has posted to you of your inconsistencies and the resulting associated difficulties..........
Blessings
Doug
Quote from: Livelystone on January 31, 2010, 04:20:10 PM
Chris
Following your line of thought at times is difficult at best
After this thread spends some time chasing down the identity of who "him" is, you say that you never meant that "HIM" (in who would be better off never being born) was anybody but Judas (post 46) but at the bottom of post # 24 it certainly seems that you are presenting that exact same line of thought you are denying to have done in 46.
In reply #24, I posted several different translations that are worded in such a way as to infer that the "him" and the "that man" are not referring to the same person.
So I asked who the "him" and the "that man" might be, if they are not both referring to Judas.
I pointed out that since the first "that man" clearly refers to Judas that it seems pretty clear that the second "that man" is also referring to Judas.
So I asked, if the "that man" is Judas then who is the "him"? And I asked, if it would not make sense for the "him" to refer to THE SON OF MAN.
I even pointed out that the CLV capitalizes the "H" in "Him", making it refer to Jesus, rather than Judas.
In post #46 I was asking WhiteWings who the "he" was in his statement and pointed out that Jesus was referring to "the Son of man" and asked if it wouldn't make sense (spiritually) that "the son of man" would have been better off had "that man" (his betrayer) not been born.
In neither post did I ever claim that I thought that the "him" who would have been "better off" was Judas. So just exactly where did I say that it couldn't be "anyone but" Judas, Doug? :dontknow:
QuoteWhen I am pointing out of Judas being judged in the afterlife of "not going to bed of roses" you twist that to saying yes his shame was his punishment and that he went to his grave in shame and that is it (when nothing could further from the truth)
I didn't "twist" anything, my friend. Judas went to his grave in shame. I addressed nothing beyond that so just exactly why do YOU ADD "and that is it" to what I said? :dontknow:
Do you also assume that Judas REMAINS IN HIS GRAVE IN SHAME FOR ALL ETERNITY just because I did not address the fact that Judas is now WITH THE LORD? :dontknow:
QuoteThen you turn and say say ....... "of course the spirit goes back to God" but leaving out the judgement it receives.
NOW is the judgment of this world, Doug. It is not "me" who said that, but Jesus Christ. Do you not believe Him?
QuoteYou talk about going on to perfection but then you skip the foundation that perfection requires as if it is not required.
I didn't "skip" anything, Doug. This thread is about Judas, so I did not go into great detail about the difference between "a child" and "a son". I only touched on it as it relates to there being a difference.
QuoteNot that I look to others for support but I am not the only here who has posted to you of your inconsistencies and the resulting associated difficulties..........
Blessings
Doug
Who else has complained? I think that the only other person I have "argued" with is Eaglesway and that had nothing to do with "inconsistencies". It had to do with me asking him questions that he didn't want to answer.
You, on the other hand, have come after me in thread after thread accusing me of saying things that I never said. You even accuse me of denying things that I never denied and of believing things that I don't.
And you have the nerve to blame me? Because your trouble with me is a result of my being unclear and inconsistent?
Do me a favor, Doug.,
Unless you can actually find a quote where I said that the "him" couldn't be "anyone but Judas"...
Or where I said that I currently believe that something other than the physical body goes to the grave at death, while the spirit returns to God ...
etc, etc, etc....
Next time
quote me and then address what I
actually said, instead of trying to "sum up" what you think you heard in order to accuse me. OK? :thumbsup:
Otherwise, just ignore my posts. :thumbsup:
There is nothing worse that having to constantly defend yourself against those who will falsely accuse you of saying and believing things that you don't. Especially when all they will do when corrected is blame you for being unclear and inconsistent instead of recognizing that it was they who misread or misunderstood what was actually said. :mshock:
If you want to disagree with what I actually said, that is fine. I will defend anything that I have said and I will stand corrected, if I believe that correction is warranted. But I can't just keep defending myself against things that I never said and don't believe. OK. :thumbsup:
So according to you Chris, John's view of the GWT of people being resurrected to judgement and Christ's words of persons resurrected to shame and dishonor are not true
That reminds me of some other words of Jesus.......
Luke 12:20
But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee
Again just a question and not taking sides....
What kind of ressurection are you talking about here?
- Only the spirit?
- Body?
- Body + spirit?
- A second after death?
- Possibly millenia after death?
Quote from: Livelystone on January 31, 2010, 09:06:35 PM
So according to you Chris, John's view of the GWT of people being resurrected to judgement and Christ's words of persons resurrected to shame and dishonor are not true
That reminds me of some other words of Jesus.......
Luke 12:20
But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee
Once again you put words into my mouth that I have not said.
That reminds me of something too.
Those who lie in wait for blood... hunting their brothers with a net. :mshock:
It seems that you prefer to ACCUSE ME rather than just ASK ME what it is I believe? Is that right?
I give you links to bible studies that might help you better understand what I believe, since they go into much greater detail then my posts here, and you REFUSE to read them, but you still feel FREE to accuse me over my beliefs, anyway, not even knowing what they are. :mshock:
Stop pursuing me, Doug. You obviously have no idea what I believe or why. Neither have you bothered to listen to me when I have tried to explain it to you or point you to some of my personal studies that might make things a bit clearer for you. You seem to want me to sit at your feet and recognize you as one who is here "to teach me" but you do not wish to hear what I have to say because you have already concluded that you know well enough what I believe - though you quite obviously DO NOT or you would not always be accusing me of saying and believing things that I DO NOT.
Disagreeing WITH YOU is not the same things as disagreeing with THE WORD OF GOD! (And you've even accuse me of disagreeing with you when I haven't. :grin:)
So I will ask you again to approach me differently or to not approach me at all. And I will thank you, in advance, for honoring my request.
Thanks!!
Chris
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 31, 2010, 09:11:08 PM
Again just a question and not taking sides....
What kind of ressurection are you talking about here?
- Only the spirit?
- Body?
- Body + spirit?
- A second after death?
- Possibly millenia after death?
Hi WhiteWings,
Who are you asking?
If me, what are you referring to as "here"? A particular post or just in general?
Chris said
QuoteThose who lie in wait for blood... hunting their brothers with a net.
LOL....... if I thought I was the only one to read what you post I would never bother to make a reply. If I wanted to do as you suggest I would be going over all your posts
QuoteOnce again you put words into my mouth that I have not said.
LOL again.......... I present that Judas went ON to wishing that he had never been born and then after YOU defer who the "him" is you change it to the manner of his earthly death............ and you say I am putting words in your mouth......... you are a funny guy.
Chris....... Ever since Christ came in human flesh and a way given to man for man to destroy the evil within him that he was born with so that he can go on without it, now is the time of judgement!!!......... afterwards it will be the time of sentencing that will be just like when in the OT law punishment was given to bring the offender in line with God
(other than a death sentence)So what if I do not use a quote button if I provide you a post # ............... go look and read them. After you said what you did in post 24 about "him" and even quoted other translations that capitalized the "H" there were others who took your post the same way that I did......... do you need those post #s or can you find them yourself?
Up until now I have not pursued you and have only posted when AFTER I see you influencing others........ that has always been my concept on when it becomes NECESSARY to speak but from now on I will keep a closer eye on what you are posting........ so thanks for the heads up :thumbsup:
Doug
Mod note - Once again, can I remind that we post "as I understand", "in my opinion" - discussion rather than teaching? It really helps the discussion aspect of things, as this is a place for discussion, not a personal blog where any of our own teachings can take precedence and be the "accepted beliefs".
The mods often advocate for/against CERTAIN things, but this is often in accord with either Gary's wishes, or at least with his allowance of those POVs as this is his site.
Things can be addressed more directly if need be, but I'm putting this out for a general reminder "if the shoe fits". If it doesn't, ignore it.
We all are at different levels of understanding (revelation) and obedience. If something is really obviously out of line according to the forum guidelines, not that it can't be addressed according to doctrinal beliefs/understandings by members - as DISCUSSION - but if things are to that critical point, then the mods need to handle it. If it's more a matter of interpretation/understanding, and not blatant, clearly anti-scriptural things, then sometimes it may be best to say "well, I disagree and here's how I see it", then move on.
Please try to take this thread back to a "this is my understanding" level so it doesn't end up getting locked, and then others can't participate. It's either those options, or we may end up deleting parts of individual posts that are divisive and/or taking on too personal a tone. Thanks, James.
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 31, 2010, 09:11:08 PM
Again just a question and not taking sides....
What kind of ressurection are you talking about here?
- Only the spirit?
- Body?
- Body + spirit?
- A second after death?
- Possibly millenia after death?
Hello WW
I do not see where flesh and blood will be resurrected so I would have to go with spirit and soul
The soul is a body of a spirits and it is through the actions of the soul that we see the makeup of what spirit in it that we are dealing with. In Re. 21 we see the woman who is the bride for Christ (
Holy Spirit in us) coming down from heaven to us and then immediately afterwards the fact being proclaimed that the tabernacle of God being with man.
Paul speaks of different bodies in 1Cor 15
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.Eve is a soul taken from flesh yet is not a physical earthly body but is a celestial " heavenly body of spirits" that within us is the spirit of man (Adam). I do not know of any listing of the individual spirits that make up the soul for the spirit of man but for that of the Lord we see them listed in Isa. 11;2
Jesus in the flesh was the manifestation of the Soul of the Spirit of God. Eve in the flesh is the soul of man and is the manifestation of the spirit of man (Adam) As I see it is these spirits and souls resurrected from each "earthen vessel" that will be judged as is written in their book. For Christians who have the Holy Spirit and the woman adorned to be her bride that have attended the wedding would IMO be doing as well as could be....... Personally I see them as having obtained the first ressurection.
The millennia is said to thousand years but the Bible also says that thousand years is just a day. For those who reign with Christ are they only to be limited to 1000 years or is it possible that 1000 years being a day signifies to a different day as in age or a dispensation? I tend to think the latter.
I do draw that conclusion based largely on my own experience. I add that clarification because like Paul when he heard things that could not be lawfully uttered of when he was in the third heaven because there were not the other necessary witnesses....... and I respect the same law that requires at least two witnesses....... For my own edification I have two witnesses between my experience and what is written in Re. 20 11-13 but my own witness is not valid for teaching it as doctrine............ but I also have to consider the reason why God allowed that to happen and there is no reason for me not to believe that it will not be the same for everyone just as John said and that I also witnessed that was immediately following what man and machine both said was my physical death.
After all when Jesus said to the foolish man "tonight thy soul will be required of thee" certainly does not sound as if it would another 1000 years off before he faced the GWT.
Blessings
Doug
Quote from: Livelystone on February 01, 2010, 01:50:57 AM
Chris said
QuoteThose who lie in wait for blood... hunting their brothers with a net.
LOL....... if I thought I was the only one to read what you post I would never bother to make a reply. If I wanted to do as you suggest I would be going over all your posts
QuoteOnce again you put words into my mouth that I have not said.
LOL again.......... I present that Judas went ON to wishing that he had never been born and then after YOU defer who the "him" is you change it to the manner of his earthly death............ and you say I am putting words in your mouth......... you are a funny guy.
Chris....... Ever since Christ came in human flesh and a way given to man for man to destroy the evil within him that he was born with so that he can go on without it, now is the time of judgement!!!......... afterwards it will be the time of sentencing that will be just like when in the OT law punishment was given to bring the offender in line with God (other than a death sentence)
So what if I do not use a quote button if I provide you a post # ............... go look and read them. After you said what you did in post 24 about "him" and even quoted other translations that capitalized the "H" there were others who took your post the same way that I did......... do you need those post #s or can you find them yourself?
Up until now I have not pursued you and have only posted when AFTER I see you influencing others........ that has always been my concept on when it becomes NECESSARY to speak but from now on I will keep a closer eye on what you are posting........ so thanks for the heads up :thumbsup:
Doug
Bottom line is that I never said that anything other than the physical body goes to the grave at death; something that you tried to correct me on. Nor have I claimed that the "him" in Mar 14:21 was "Judas", which is what you claimed I said, even though you are even now pointing out the fact that I posted out the capital "H" used by CLV. I guess you think that Judas, rather than Christ, would be so noted with a capital "H"?
You say that others also understood me to be claiming that the "Him" (captial "H") was JUDAS? But you have not proven that anyone else here thought that I was saying that. Where can I find the post in which that can be demonstrated?
If you cannot prove your claims then you are doing nothing but bearing false witness against me and, apparently, you think nothing about it, nor about quoting a scripture that I am quite certain was meant to call me "a fool"; though you now want to take exception to me accusing you of laying in wait for blood with a net ready to try and trap me in response to it.
So yes, if you want to accuse me THEN QUOTE ME. That is the only PROPER thing to do, don't you think?
And I can only hope that the MODS are taking note of all of this and your apparent warning to now pursue my posts even more closely, as I have no intention of continuing to defend myself against your every accusation when they are almost always false and have nothing to do with anything that I have actually said.
So from now on I will simply ignore your posts and if you comment on mine, claiming that I have said things that I have NOT then I will simply point out FOR THE RECORD that I have NOT said what you are claiming and leave it at that and let those who read your accusations judge for themselves whether or not your accusations are true or false.
But, for the record, if you paid half as much attention to what I say and to how others are responding to what I say, as you claim you do, you might know by now that I am not actually "a guy" at all. :laughing7:
lol lol lol
Chris said
QuoteSo from now on I will simply ignore your posts
Is that a promise ?
Doug
Quote from: Livelystone on February 01, 2010, 02:47:03 AM
The millennia is said to thousand years but the Bible also says that thousand years is just a day. For those who reign with Christ are they only to be limited to 1000 years or is it possible that 1000 years being a day signifies to a different day as in age or a dispensation? I tend to think the latter.
:cloud9: Here's some thoughts on that and I hope I can bring it out alright. If a day is as a thousand years, and that day is no part darkness as is Christ, that day IS Christ; HE IS the "1000 year day". The Spirit that He is has no beginning and no end, and so this day NEVER ENDS and has always been.
Further; all that are caught up into that day that is Christ, which is our spirit, the spirits of just men made perfect (the 7th day; seven literally means perfect, complete, sacred), IS also contained within this "day".
So this "day" then, has always existed but was not fully revealed to man since the garden when Adam walked within this "day" (His breath = the cool of the day). And all who have passed by way of the grave, their spirits are IN Christ, which is the "day" we're speaking of. Remember He is the bright and morning star (like the sun) which is the "mark" of the DAY.
This is why when He "comes" (and He's ALWAYS coming, the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow), He comes with 10,000's of His saints. Blessings....
Quote from: Chris on February 01, 2010, 04:24:20 AM
But, for the record, if you paid half as much attention to what I say and to how others are responding to what I say, as you claim you do, you might know by now that I am not actually "a guy" at all. :laughing7:
Chris writes eloquently, exercising appropriate speech.
Not like a man with a silver-tongue. :laughhand:
"Thank you LORD, for this Day." Amen.
Quote from: Cardinal on February 01, 2010, 05:54:14 AM
Quote from: Livelystone on February 01, 2010, 02:47:03 AM
The millennia is said to thousand years but the Bible also says that thousand years is just a day. For those who reign with Christ are they only to be limited to 1000 years or is it possible that 1000 years being a day signifies to a different day as in age or a dispensation? I tend to think the latter.
:cloud9: Here's some thoughts on that and I hope I can bring it out alright. If a day is as a thousand years, and that day is no part darkness as is Christ, that day IS Christ; HE IS the "1000 year day". The Spirit that He is has no beginning and no end, and so this day NEVER ENDS and has always been.
Further; all that are caught up into that day that is Christ, which is our spirit, the spirits of just men made perfect (the 7th day; seven literally means perfect, complete, sacred), IS also contained within this "day".
So this "day" then, has always existed but was not fully revealed to man since the garden when Adam walked within this "day" (His breath = the cool of the day). And all who have passed by way of the grave, their spirits are IN Christ, which is the "day" we're speaking of. Remember He is the bright and morning star (like the sun) which is the "mark" of the DAY.
This is why when He "comes" (and He's ALWAYS coming, the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow), He comes with 10,000's of His saints. Blessings....
AMEN!! Cardinal!!
As I see it, it is all ONE DAY to the Lord, a DAY that is divided between THE NIGHT (darkness for those who sleep) and THE DAY (for those who awake and come into the light).
Scriptures speaks of "a thousand years" in connection with not only THE DAY of the Lord but with THE NIGHT also (which is "as yesterday" when it is PAST) - God having a covenant WITH BOTH (the NIGHT and the DAY)... a thousand years TWICE TOLD!
:cloud9: Yes, AMEN, that's true also. I didn't go there, but the day of no part darkness is not really that because there is no darkness, but rather that the darkness has been covered over (swallowed up) of the light.
Which is why the tablets of the law (that ministers and therefore contains death or darkness) are covered over by the mercy seat, and why when they were uncovered, death was the result. Love (the 7th day which IS the Spirit of Christ) covers a multitude of sins.
The white stone overcomers receive is the Word/law with the death covered over by this 7th day of pure mercy, which is the Spirit of Christ in fullness. This is where we have the fullness of the heart of flesh (celestial flesh) and not a stony heart.
But first that heart must be broken as the alabaster box/stone to pour out the costly (roughly $300) ointment. The measurements of Noah's ark have this 300 in them, and it is 100 X 3, or the fullness as revealed in all 3 of the courts of the Tabernacle. His Word is perfect. Blessings....
willieH: Hi Doug... :cloud9:
Hey, I have a couple of questions bro...
Quote from: Livelystone on January 31, 2010, 09:06:35 PM
So according to you Chris, John's view of the GWT of people being resurrected to judgement and Christ's words of persons resurrected to shame and dishonor are not true
(1) It appears to me that obviously you are referring to
Rev 20:12-15 as the "GWT"... Where is "resurrection" specifically mentioned in these verses?
JESUS said:
John 12:31 --
NOW, is the JUDGMENT of THIS WORLD(2) If as
JESUS plainly noted, the JUDGMENT is
NOW... why should there be another "later"?
I think a problem exists in the
common observance of Scripture (which IS the DECLARATION of GOD) concerning this realm [time]... Isaiah notes that the DECLARATION of GOD, is "END" to BEGINNING [divine/eternal agenda],
not BEGINNING to END [finite/temporal agenda]...
So many of the things such as the (so-called) "GWT Judgment" are observations which automatically assume FINITE "CHRONOLOGY" to be within the observance of the REVELATION of
JESUS CHRIST [the
WORD] which is found being "declared" --
END to BEGINNING --
Isaiah 46:10:Peace: bro...
...willieH :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Chris on January 31, 2010, 11:50:55 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 31, 2010, 09:11:08 PM
Again just a question and not taking sides....
What kind of ressurection are you talking about here?
- Only the spirit?
- Body?
- Body + spirit?
- A second after death?
- Possibly millenia after death?
Hi WhiteWings,
Who are you asking?
If me, what are you referring to as "here"? A particular post or just in general?
You and livelystone.
"Here" is the last few posts before my post in which the both of you mentioned resurrection
Quote from: Livelystone on February 01, 2010, 02:47:03 AM
The millennia is said to thousand years but the Bible also says that thousand years is just a day.
And day is like a year. That would also mean that all the days in the 1000 years can be a year. 365000 years.
QuoteFor those who reign with Christ are they only to be limited to 1000 years or is it possible that 1000 years being a day signifies to a different day as in age or a dispensation? I tend to think the latter.
Ask no proof; but I always think the creation/plan will only last a week. 7000 years. Conflicting because I believe in billions year old earth.
QuoteAfter all when Jesus said to the foolish man "tonight thy soul will be required of thee" certainly does not sound as if it would another 1000 years off before he faced the GWT.
I can also read that differently.
For me the soul stands for life. If that soul is required it means dying.
Or a bit more ETs make a choice between good and evil. Like sell your soul to the devil.
Quote from: Cardinal on February 01, 2010, 06:31:15 AM
:cloud9: Yes, AMEN, that's true also. I didn't go there, but the day of no part darkness is not really that because there is no darkness, but rather that the darkness has been covered over (swallowed up) of the light.
Which is why the tablets of the law (that ministers and therefore contains death or darkness) are covered over by the mercy seat, and why when they were uncovered, death was the result. Love (the 7th day which IS the Spirit of Christ) covers a multitude of sins.
The white stone overcomers receive is the Word/law with the death covered over by this 7th day of pure mercy, which is the Spirit of Christ in fullness. This is where we have the fullness of the heart of flesh (celestial flesh) and not a stony heart.
But first that heart must be broken as the alabaster box/stone to pour out the costly (roughly $300) ointment. The measurements of Noah's ark have this 300 in them, and it is 100 X 3, or the fullness as revealed in all 3 of the courts of the Tabernacle. His Word is perfect. Blessings....
Indeed it is PERFECT as He is PERFECT!!
Amen! God causes THE LIGHT to shine OUT OF DARKNESS!
Swallows it up whole! :thumbsup:
AMEN Willie!! :thumbsup:
WhiteWings, I'll be back to answer later. Gotta run out the door before I'm late to work!
Jhn 12:30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes. 31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
I don't think we can take part of a scripture "Now is the judgment" and make a doctrine out of it that declares there is no future judgment. We need to discern what is being said.
Jhn 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me; 10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; 11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
Perhaps it would be helpful to the discussion if those who do not believe in a future judgment (for those who are not found in Christ) to explain how they understand these scriptures, especially in light of the scriptures that declare a future judgment.
Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
If there is a future judgment (and I understand the scriptures to be stating there is), then the question as to Judas becomes was he in Christ? Since most would agree that he is a type for the son of perdition, then the answer must be no.
Something else which should be looked at more closely is with regard to Judas' repentance. Paul tells us that Esau also sought repentance with tears, but none was found. Based on my study of repentance, this is what is spoken of with regard to Judas.
:girlheart:
Hi Beth,
I think that it all depends on how you see "the revelation of Jesus Christ". As a physical event that is yet to take place or as a spiritual truth (ie I will not leave you comfortless; I will come to you; Christ in you, the hope of glory).
Christ comes "the second time" unti them that look for him. No?
And it is WHEN HE (who is our life) APPEARS that we shall APPEAR WITH HIM - in glory. Right?
As I see that things that are seen in John's vision (book of Revelation) are happening now (and have been happening in those who believe from the very foundation of the world).
We are ALL "in" Christ, IMO.
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 31, 2010, 09:11:08 PM
Again just a question and not taking sides....
What kind of ressurection are you talking about here?
- Only the spirit?
- Body?
- Body + spirit?
- A second after death?
- Possibly millenia after death?
I only see one resurrection - Jesus Christ.
It is by being found IN HIM that we know the power of HIS RESURRECTION and pass from death unto LIFE. I see this as a spiritual truth that has nothing to do with physical death or the resurrection of "the body of this death" (ie our physical bodies from physical tombs).
I believe that when we die we go to be with the Lord. And those who do not already know the Lord will see Him for the first time and, just as Paul did, fall at His feet and know that He is Lord.
Beth, I see judgment pretty much the same way that WillieH does in this thread:
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=7455.0
Hi Chris
Thanks for the link, I just saw it now as I scrolled down to reply to your first message. There is no doubt in my mind that the Revelation of Jesus Christ speaks of the unveiling of Christ in "His" people.
:girlheart:
Hi Chris
I followed the link you provided and see there are 4 pages and on the first page alone Willie has 4 lengthy posts. So you are saying that you agree with every post Willie has on that thread and that each post deals with judgment. That is quite a bit of reading and it seems it would be easier for you to just state your beliefs in response to my post :happygrin: rather than refer me to what looks to be at least an hours worth of reading :mshock: If there is a specific response that deals directly to my post, that would be great :thumbsup:
:girlheart:
Hi Beth,
Was just trying not to take this thread too far off-topic so figured I would point you to another thread where judgment was already being discussed.
I do think that all of Willie's post in the other thread are relevant to judgment they also do probably repeat some of the same points over and over again - in repsonse to questions as the conversation progressed. So you probably wouldn't have to read the whole thread to get the gist of it.
I think I posted on about page 3, but only added a few comments. Included in one of my posts is this link:
http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendId=368111335&blogId=466307247
It was a post made at another forum by a friend of mine that I also liked very much and saved. It might not be quite as much to read.
willieH: Hi Beth... :hithere:
Quote from: Beth on February 01, 2010, 03:07:32 PM
Jhn 12:30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes. 31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
I don't think we can take part of a scripture "Now is the judgment" and make a doctrine out of it that declares there is no future judgment. We need to discern what is being said.
Hmmm... God's
WORD does not need a man's witness to verify, NOR establish
It...
And, before I get into defining my thought, the
END was DECLARED [which is the utilization of
WORDS] FROM, ...the
BEGINNING --
Isaiah 46:10 -- Rom 4:17 -- Rom 9:11To say that this (we need multiple witnesses in order that a "truthful" teaching can be established) would proclaim...
Ex 20:5 --
Thou shalt NOT KILL...
Standing BY ITSELF is INSUFFICIENT to establish this STATEMENT as, truth?
ALL individual points of the LAW are
one for ALL and
ALL for one... are they not? --
James 2:10 -- and thereby even ONE stands for ALL!
Also,
John 12:31 is supported by
Col 1:20, is it not? :dontknow:
And the
CROSS of CHRIST is noted as
existent, ...
PRIOR to the Creation! --
Rev 13:8 -- is it NOT, Beth? :JCThink:
If the CROSS of
CHRIST in its moment, RECONCILED ALL THINGS to
YHVH (which in ETERNAL agenda was PRIOR to the Creation, and reconciled EVERYTHING that needed reconciliation), then what needs to be further JUDGED, Beth?
ALL have sinned Beth... yet "
ALL" have yet to walk the Earth...
ALL have been concluded in unbelief Beth... yet "
ALL" have yet to walk the Earth...
ALL find themselves and their sin and unbelief RECONCILED... yet "
ALL" have yet to walk the Earth...
The "books" of those "yet to walk the earth"... in terms of TIME, are YET to be "opened" before Him... yet STAND OPEN before HIM within HIS FOREKNOWLEDGE of them... Which within said "FOREKNOWLEDGE", ...finds ALL JUDGMENT contained.
:dontknow: :dontknow: :dontknow:
Because WE live and observe in FINITE/Linear terms -- i.e. a "judgment" (you percieve) that is future, does not so confine the
WORD or Its source, the Heart of
YHVH God.
YHVH and His
WORD are "NOW", "Been there, done that" entities... (no irreverance intended)
We (and our experiences in time) all emerge FROM (in time) and return TO (in conclusion)
---> that (
YHVH and His
WORD) which ALREADY
IS... (WAS and ALWAYS WILL BE)... :nod:
ALREADY judged and forgiven, for the Lamb was slain FROM THE FOUNDATION of the WORLD... noting the "
end" to BE in place BEFORE the "
beginning", began...
Rev 13:8...willieH :HeartThrob:
QuoteIf the CROSS of CHRIST in its moment, RECONCILED ALL THINGS to YHVH (which in ETERNAL agenda was PRIOR to the Creation, and reconciled EVERYTHING that needed reconciliation), then what needs to be further JUDGED, Beth?
Hi Willie
Indeed Jesus Christ reconciled men and God through the cross. I don't however believe that this means there is nothing further to be judged. IMO, there is no further judgment of sin (the noun) for Jesus paid the debt of sin not just for those who believe but for the world.
But to answer your question "what needs to be further judged" would put me in a place of judging and I do not think I am capable of righteous judgment, so I just BELIEVE the scriptures that God has judged, is judging and SHALL judge.
Jhn 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Paul says if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged, but when we are jugded, we are chastened of the Lord that we should not be CONDEMNED (judged) WITH THE WORLD. (1 Cor. 11:31-32).
He hath appointed a day, in the which He will JUDGE THE WORLD in righteousness by that Man Whom He hath ordained" (Acts 17:31).
Do ye not know that the saints SHALL JUDGE THE WORLD?" (I Cor. 6:2).
So if sin has been judged there is no one who will stand before the judgment seat of christ for sin, but what about works?
I don't think judgment is such a NEGATIVE thing. Isaiah seemed to be rejoicing when he spoke about God's Judgment.
Yea, in the way of THY JUDGMENTS, O Lord, have we waited for thee ... with my soul have I desired Thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek Thee early: for when THY JUDGMENTS are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isa. 26:8-9).
Ray Prinzing wrote: "The very purpose of judgment is to separate you from the old, that you might come into the new. To separate you from selfhood's rebellion, giving you a TURNING POINT, and heading you in the right direction, in the will of God." Those who have not experienced this separation during this age, would you deny them that opportunity in the age to come? I think you do so when you suggest NOW IS THE JUDGMENT (period).
:girlheart:
:cloud9: For me, the way I understand the "NOW", is that it is always NOW in His Spirit, as time is no more, neither past nor future, but always NOW. It's a difficult concept to wrap our mind with it's finite experience around.
So whether in the body or out of the body, in the realm of Spirit it is always NOW. Time is the measurement of death/corruption/decay. Nothing can corrupt or decay walking (existing or drawing our life essence from) in His Spirit, because there is no time in His Spirit.
As a type and shadow, this is why the Israelites sandals and garments did not wax old even after 40 years in the desert wilderness.
So indeed, it is always the "time" of judgment to the flesh (flesh as in lust, hate, murder, bitterness, ect.), because the flesh is "judged" by the presence of the Spirit, and the Spirit is EVERYWHERE.
This is why we will give an account of every "idle" word, and why it says anything that is not of either yea or nay is evil. Idle there means "unemployed", ie. the Spirit didn't speak it. Life and death is in the tongue and we will eat the fruit of it. Blessings....
AWESOME Sis , I can sure understand this , thanks for putting this in words !!
Rom 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
for Love is the fulfilling of the Law in Christ ! :icon_flower:
and for sure a big ol fruit of the Spirit and sure good stuff for everyone to be eating this fruit ...
2Cr 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty.
Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if [there be] any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law.
Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Jam 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: