Judas

[WhiteWings]

Again, can't fully explain it, but if I sin, it may be the "law of sin and death working in me", but it's still IN ME, so I'm held accountable for it.  That's why the confession on my part and the forgiveness on God's part.   :Chinscratch:

If the sin is in you and you are able to stop it then you are to blame.
But satan seems only to be outpowered by Father, Son and HS.
2 Corinthians 4:4  In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Sounds like a David and Goliath fight. It's uncommon for the David's (we) of this world to win of Goliath (satan). It's possible. But the odds are very bad I think.

but it's still IN ME, so I'm held accountable for it.

Are you accountable losing a fight with Goliath?

[Livelystone]

The fact that Judas although chosen was still taken over by satan certainly shows that one being chosen. saved, christian or otherwise does not prevent them from being used by satan to commit sins to fulfill his evil desires.

Is anyone out of satan's reach? Even Paul spoke of struggling with the flesh and doing those things which he desired not to do and being unable to do that which he desired to do. Right? 

The fact that he through his transgression was removed from being one of the 12, translated means he was judged for his sin.

He was judged and removed by whom?

Then in addition he went unto his own special place that there is no indication that it was anything else but during the resurrection and plenty of scriptures that do.

He went to his grave. A natural shadow of a spiritual truth that applies to all who sin, does it not? Do we not all "remain in the graves" ("the body of this death" that Paul spoke of) UNTIL we hear the voice of the Lord calling us OUT of it? 

I say this because both Paul and Jesus warn us of Christians being judged in the resurrection for the sins they have committed in this life


He 6 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

What does it mean to taste the good word of God and the powers of the age to come? Doesn't the chapter start out with "let us go on unto perfection"? So isn't Paul talking about going on "unto perfection"? Talking about the difference between "a child" (which differs nothing from a servant) and "A SON" (one who has Christ formed IN THEM)?

Who is this applicable to? Those who have died or those who are living?

So does Jesus

Luke 12: 5 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;

46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

Christ comes the second time unto them that look for Him; we are told to WATCH for His appearing and He has promised not to leave us COMFORTLESS.

CHRIST IN YOU, the hope of glory. Right?

So, again I have to ask, does this have to do with those who have died or those who are living?

With regard to being beaten with many or few stripes, it is not "in the earth" that both the righteous and the wicked are recompensed?

Pro 11:31  Behold, the righteous shall be recompensed in the earth: much more the wicked and the sinner.

Even "into their bosom"?

Isa 65:6  Behold, it is written before me: I will not keep silence, but will recompense, even recompense into their bosom,

Likewise when Jesus separates the sheep from the goats who also are "Christians" that takes place in the resurrection He then casts them off to the same place reserved for the devil and his angels.

Yet, Jesus Christ is THE resurrection and THE life, right? (1 John 11:25) And we are first DRAGGED IN before those without a wedding garment are (bound hand and foot) CAST OUT.

Jesus said:

Joh 12:32  And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

NOW is the judgment of this world, according to Christ. We are judged by the cross of Christ, are we not? So why are we still looking for judgment? This life isn't "hell" enough for anyone? 

Then what about the story of lazarus and the rich man?....... They both called Abraham to be father signifying being chosen but one was being comforted while the other was being denied water for his thirst yet both were "sons"........ certainly judgement going on there and the rich man is most unhappy about it.

Where did Lazarus call Abraham "father"? He was caught up to the bosom of Abraham while the rich man (who called Abraham "father") found himself "in hades" and was "tormented in this flame" (singular - that was ON HIS TONGUE).

Note that ONLY THE RICH MAN was "buried".

This parable is not about judgment in the "afterlife".

All of the above is what I was referring to when I said that where he was going to was no bed of roses and not just because he was ashamed and committed suicide......... but because it was judgement in the resurection.

We are judged HERE.

Fact is Christians do not want to hear that that they will be judged in the resurrection for any of the sins that they have committed when the truth is that they will......... then we have UR advocates taking it even further preaching that even unbelievers do not get  judged in the resurrection that contrary to what they think is not helping to win people to Christ.

Jesus Christ himself is the one who said NOW IS THE JUDGMENT OF THIS WORLD, Doug. Scripture says that we are judged IN THE EARTH, even INTO OUR BOSOMS. We REAP what we SOW.

We are called NOW to be reconciled to God - OR FACE JUDGMENT! The wrath of God abides upon (present tense, according to Paul) those who believe not. Does it not? 

AS far as Judas sitting on one of the 12 thrones judging Israel  :thumbdown:.......... There is no scripture to support that theory and much to refute it. There no record of Judas following Jesus through the regeneration also that would have required both obedience from Judas as well as his presence at Pentecost instead of his absence........ Then on top of that the only one that Judas was being obedient to and following after was satan and not Jesus.

Judas was still one of the ones who that promise was made to. Could he have lost His reward? Sure. But does that mean that He did and God will not fulfill that promise? I wouldn't want to be the one to say so without more to go on than the fact that Judas killed himself.

What happened at Pentecost speaks to a higher spiritual truth that are not limited to that one day in time.

For sure Judas did not go to any place where I would ever want to be and the only question that remains is how long will he have to stay there at the special place reserved for him?

He went to the grave where we all go, whether according to a carnal truth or a spiritual one.

because Judas was the one who would have been better off had he never been born  :thumbsup:

Interesting. So then all who are cast into the lake of fire would have been "better off" not having ever been born? Is that what you are saying?

Chris

I have looked your post over and I disagreee with just about all that you say so this this is my reply.  :sigh:

First off there is not a single question posed by you that you cannot find the answer to yourself if you approach the scriptures and God with a contrite heart. I do not care if it takes you desiring to prove me wrong to get you to search the Scriptures in accordance with God's way to acquire Godly wisdom because understand this ....... I am not trying to talk you into anything simply because if I can do that then someone else will come along and talk you into something else........... fair enough?

But I will ask you to ponder this

The only thing that goes to an earthly grave is an earthly body and that earthly body is not physically dead until the spirit leaves it and that happens BEFORE the physical body is in a grave (or at least it better  :laughing7:) ............ and when that spirit leaves that earthly body it goes straight to God where it stands before the GWT.....Besides having witnessed that happening in my own testimony that has been posted here there are multiple witness to support that teaching in the scriptures but you need to acquire them for yourself rather than just hear about them from me or anyone else........... Otherwise it just gets repetitive.

Regarding the perfection we are to move forward into IF GOD BE WILLING is only after the seven foundational doctrines are FIRST understood by the individual seeking to be moved forward.

Because you do not search out knowledge in accordance to laws given to Moses you are running into the same problems here that you did in your statements regarding the "living soul" over in the soul sleep thread.

Not understanding those doctrines is showing up in your questions to me so my advice to you is easy to be understood........ search out those required doctrinal foundations and you will answer your own questions. :thumbsup:

Blessings

Doug

[jabcat]

Again, can't fully explain it, but if I sin, it may be the "law of sin and death working in me", but it's still IN ME, so I'm held accountable for it.  That's why the confession on my part and the forgiveness on God's part.   :Chinscratch:

If the sin is in you and you are able to stop it then you are to blame.
But satan seems only to be outpowered by Father, Son and HS.
2 Corinthians 4:4  In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Sounds like a David and Goliath fight. It's uncommon for the David's (we) of this world to win of Goliath (satan). It's possible. But the odds are very bad I think.

but it's still IN ME, so I'm held accountable for it.

Are you accountable losing a fight with Goliath?

I hear what you're saying.   Right now, the "answer" that comes to mind for further consideration and placement within the equation is this - If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
I Jn. 1:9

[WhiteWings]

That is if you aware of sin.... Kneeling to false gods is sin. Muslims do so for example? Are they aware of it? No. But hey are just as sure thet they kneel for the right god as anyone on this forum. That's the nasty thing of deception. Very few can spot it. Because it presents itself as a angel of light. I think being aware of being wrong is a major part of the battle...
You are a prodical son trying to find home.
But the world is also full of lost sheep that can't find the way home.
And likely there are even more coins that don''t even know they are lost...

[Chris]

Whoops. Shoulda checked before I wrote that from memory.

Not a problem. Just wanted to make sure I knew exactly what you were referring to before I responded to it.  :thumbsup:

Perhaps the prayer of Jesus only had effect on a certain unmentioned stumbling?
The way you write it, it sounds like you are saying the prayer of Jesus failed. And I think you are not trying to say that.

No, I am not saying that at all. I don't think that because we stumble that our faith has failed.

I'm sure Jesus prayed often to stop stumbling. Not every word/action of Jesus is written down.

Perhaps, but he did not pray that Peter would not stumble, but that his faith would not fail.

Then I wonder why is this time so special that it is written down? Just to show the powers of Jesus?
Maybe so. But personally I think there are other reasons to mention it. A connection with Judas? I'm no scholar. Far faaaaar from it :winkgrin: But I learned one thing: A verse never has just only one simple meaning.
Just thinking out loud.

I would probably agree with you.

Peter seems to stumble several times; you don't attribute that to satan (sin lying at the door, ready to devour us if we don't rule over it)?

Prepare for another vague answer...
Before I started reading TentMaker it was simple for me. If I do something bad it's me to blame.
Some Christian think it's being under control of Satan. But on TentMaker (and Ray's site) I've read other views. Just to not derail this thread I mention that satan got permission of God to test Job. So yes most certainly Peter stumbled. But who is/are to blame :sigh:

Well since I don't see "satan" as an independent spiritual being who is capable of "controlling" anyone I'd have to agree that the one to blame for the sin is the one sinning.

Typical case of: When you learn more you know you know less  :laughing7:

Indeed!! Know that feeling very well!!   :laughing7:

[WhiteWings]

I'm sure Jesus prayed often to stop stumbling. Not every word/action of Jesus is written down.

Perhaps, but he did not pray that Peter would not stumble, but that his faith would not fail.

Although I see a difference between stumbling and faith I also see lots of overlap. And because I'm kinda puzzled about the whole Judas 'story', context doesn't do much good to either.
But I'm not to worried about it I'm used to having lots of pieces that don't fit. Then suddenly I find an insignificant looking key that puts dozens of pieces in their place. Could be today. Could be next month. Could be another age. :icon_jokercolor:

[WhiteWings]

Well since I don't see "satan" as an independent spiritual being who is capable of "controlling" anyone I'd have to agree that the one to blame for the sin is the one sinning.

Who does satan depend on then?

And in this context how do you define "independent"?
a] Being controled. (I'm thinking of Job)
b] Needing weakness to feed on. (I'm thinking of eating dust....)

[Chris]

Chris

I have looked your post over and I disagreee with just about all that you say so this this is my reply.  :sigh:

First off there is not a single question posed by you that you cannot find the answer to yourself if you approach the scriptures and God with a contrite heart. I do not care if it takes you desiring to prove me wrong to get you to search the Scriptures in accordance with God's way to acquire Godly wisdom because understand this ....... I am not trying to talk you into anything simply because if I can do that then someone else will come along and talk you into something else........... fair enough?

But I will ask you to ponder this

The only thing that goes to an earthly grave is an earthly body and that earthly body is not physically dead until the spirit leaves it and that happens BEFORE the physical body is in a grave (or at least it better  :laughing7:) ............ and when that spirit leaves that earthly body it goes straight to God where it stands before the GWT.....Besides having witnessed that happening in my own testimony that has been posted here there are multiple witness to support that teaching in the scriptures but you need to acquire them for yourself rather than just hear about them from me or anyone else........... Otherwise it just gets repetitive.

Regarding the perfection we are to move forward into IF GOD BE WILLING is only after the seven foundational doctrines are FIRST understood by the individual seeking to be moved forward.

Because you do not search out knowledge in accordance to laws given to Moses you are running into the same problems here that you did in your statements regarding the "living soul" over in the soul sleep thread.

Not understanding those doctrines is showing up in your questions to me so my advice to you is easy to be understood........ search out those required doctrinal foundations and you will answer your own questions. :thumbsup:

Blessings

Doug

Doug, can you tell me why you always disagree with my posts and come back correcting me about things that I never said in them, if you are actually reading my posts?  :grin:

For example, I never denied that the spirit returns to God when the physical body dies.  :laughing7:

But this thread is about Judas, so I am not going to derail it by getting into another discussion about soul sleep. I shouldn't have even addressed that part of your post to begin with I guess but others were talking about Judas in relation to the resurrection so I was willing to touch on it from that perspective (because I don't believe that Judas is still waiting to be resurrected and face judgment).  :winkgrin:

[Chris]

Well since I don't see "satan" as an independent spiritual being who is capable of "controlling" anyone I'd have to agree that the one to blame for the sin is the one sinning.

Who does satan depend on then?


And in this context how do you define "independent"?
a] Being controled. (I'm thinking of Job)
b] Needing weakness to feed on. (I'm thinking of eating dust....)

I see "satan" as man's carnal mind (or "the lusts of the flesh").

It is the carnal mind that is "enmity" against God and that is not subject to the laws of God, isn't it? It is through the minds/hearts of men that sin is conceived, isn't it?


Joh 13:1-2 Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end. And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him;


Jam 1:14-15 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.


We see this in the garden with Eve, as well as in the temptation of Christ (though Christ was not enticed to sin). Right?

[willieH]

willieH: Hello to all :hithere:

Haven't read any of the posts in this discussion, so I don't know what has been said (I plan to read it.)

But if the Lamb was SLAIN from the foundation of the WORLD as Scripture notes... then His "slayers" were as ordained to be whoever they were, and do whatever they did...  :cloud9:  For what they "did" was WRITTEN.

And had they NOT done what they did the Scriptures would be broken, and none of us would have Salvation from sin.  :sigh:

So as far as "Judas' shame"... IMO -- that was some pretty NEEDFUL shame.  :dontknow:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

[rosered]

Acts 1 ;  15 During this time, when about 120 believers

were together in one place, Peter stood up and addressed them.

16 "Brothers," he said, "the Scriptures had to be fulfilled concerning Judas, who guided those who arrested Jesus.


This was predicted long ago by the Holy Spirit, speaking through King David. 17 Judas was one of us and shared in the ministry with us."

18 (Judas had bought a field with the money he received for his treachery. Falling headfirst there, his body split open, spilling out all his intestines. 19 The news of his death spread to all the people of Jerusalem, and they gave the place the Aramaic name Akeldama, which means "Field of Blood.")

20 Peter continued, "This was written in the book of Psalms, where it says, 'Let his home become desolate, with no one living in it.' It also says, 'Let someone else take his position.'[e]

21 "So now we must choose a replacement for Judas from among the men who were with us the entire time we were traveling with the Lord Jesus—22 from the time he was baptized by John until the day he was taken from us. Whoever is chosen will join us as a witness of Jesus' resurrection."

its a witness and warning to me of those whom Christ is betrayed the shedding of innocent blood ....

  it was also fortold , but does not make it any easier to go through  though .... :mblush:

we can also bank on a desolate house .............
  the Spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus Christ  ,, the world hated Him


Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. 

Mat 23:32   Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. 

Mat 23:33   [Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? 


Mat 23:34   Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and [some] of them ye shall kill and crucify; and [some] of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute [them] from city to city: 


Mat 23:35   That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. 


Mat 23:36   Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. 


Mat 23:37 ¶ O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not! 


Mat 23:38   Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 

Mat 23:39   For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
psalms 69 .............
They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink. 


Psa 69:22   Let their table become a snare before them: and [that which should have been] for [their] welfare, [let it become] a trap.  


Psa 69:23  Let their eyes be darkened, that they see not; and make their loins continually to shake. 

Psa 69:24   Pour out thine indignation upon them, and let thy wrathful anger take hold of them. 


Psa 69:25   Let their habitation be desolate; [and] let none dwell in their tents. 
Psa 69:26   For they persecute [him] whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded. 


Psa 69:27   Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness. 

Psa 69:28   Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous. 

  seems a sad end ???

[Livelystone]

Doug, can you tell me why you always disagree with my posts and come back correcting me about things that I never said in them, if you are actually reading my posts?  :grin:

For example, I never denied that the spirit returns to God when the physical body dies.  :laughing7:

But this thread is about Judas, so I am not going to derail it by getting into another discussion about soul sleep. I shouldn't have even addressed that part of your post to begin with I guess but others were talking about Judas in relation to the resurrection so I was willing to touch on it from that perspective (because I don't believe that Judas is still waiting to be resurrected and face judgment).  :winkgrin:

Chris

Following your line of thought at times is difficult at best

After this thread spends some time chasing down the identity of who "him" is,  you say that you never meant that "HIM" (in who would be better off never being born) was anybody but Judas (post 46) but at the bottom of post # 24 it certainly seems that you are presenting that exact same line of thought you are denying to have done in 46.

When I am pointing out of Judas being judged in the afterlife of "not going to bed of roses" you twist that to saying yes his shame was his punishment and that he went to his grave in shame and that is it (when nothing could further from the truth)

Then you turn and say say ....... "of course the spirit goes back to God" but leaving out the judgement it receives.

You talk about going on to perfection but then you skip the foundation that perfection requires as if it is not required.

Not that I look to others for support but I am not the only here who has posted to you of your inconsistencies and the resulting associated difficulties..........

Blessings

Doug

[Chris]

Chris

Following your line of thought at times is difficult at best

After this thread spends some time chasing down the identity of who "him" is,  you say that you never meant that "HIM" (in who would be better off never being born) was anybody but Judas (post 46) but at the bottom of post # 24 it certainly seems that you are presenting that exact same line of thought you are denying to have done in 46.

In reply #24, I posted several different translations that are worded in such a way as to infer that the "him" and the "that man" are not referring to the same person.

So I asked who the "him" and the "that man" might be, if they are not both referring to Judas.

I pointed out that since the first "that man" clearly refers to Judas that it seems pretty clear that the second "that man" is also referring to Judas.

So I asked, if the "that man" is Judas then who is the "him"? And I asked, if it would not make sense for the "him" to refer to THE SON OF MAN.

I even pointed out that the CLV capitalizes the "H" in "Him", making it refer to Jesus, rather than Judas.

In post #46 I was asking WhiteWings who the "he" was in his statement and pointed out that Jesus was referring to "the Son of man" and asked if it wouldn't make sense (spiritually) that "the son of man" would have been better off had "that man" (his betrayer) not been born.

In neither post did I ever claim that I thought that the "him" who would have been "better off" was Judas. So just exactly where did I say that it couldn't be "anyone but" Judas, Doug?   :dontknow:

When I am pointing out of Judas being judged in the afterlife of "not going to bed of roses" you twist that to saying yes his shame was his punishment and that he went to his grave in shame and that is it (when nothing could further from the truth)

I didn't "twist" anything, my friend. Judas went to his grave in shame. I addressed nothing beyond that so just exactly why do YOU ADD "and that is it" to what I said?  :dontknow:  

Do you also assume that Judas REMAINS IN HIS GRAVE IN SHAME FOR ALL ETERNITY just because I did not address the fact that Judas is now WITH THE LORD?  :dontknow:

Then you turn and say say ....... "of course the spirit goes back to God" but leaving out the judgement it receives.

NOW is the judgment of this world, Doug. It is not "me" who said that, but Jesus Christ. Do you not believe Him?

You talk about going on to perfection but then you skip the foundation that perfection requires as if it is not required.

I didn't "skip" anything, Doug. This thread is about Judas, so I did not go into great detail about the difference between "a child" and "a son". I only touched on it as it relates to there being a difference.  

Not that I look to others for support but I am not the only here who has posted to you of your inconsistencies and the resulting associated difficulties..........

Blessings

Doug

Who else has complained? I think that the only other person I have "argued" with is Eaglesway and that had nothing to do with "inconsistencies". It had to do with me asking him questions that he didn't want to answer.

You, on the other hand, have come after me in thread after thread accusing me of saying things that I never said. You even accuse me of denying things that I never denied and of believing things that I don't.

And you have the nerve to blame me? Because your trouble with me is a result of my being unclear and inconsistent?

Do me a favor, Doug.,

Unless you can actually find a quote where I said that the "him" couldn't be "anyone but Judas"...

Or where I said that I currently believe that something other than the physical body goes to the grave at death, while the spirit returns to God ...

etc, etc, etc....

Next time quote me and then address what I actually said, instead of trying to "sum up" what you think you heard in order to accuse me. OK? :thumbsup:

Otherwise, just ignore my posts.  :thumbsup:

There is nothing worse that having to constantly defend yourself against those who will falsely accuse you of saying and believing things that you don't. Especially when all they will do when corrected is blame you for being unclear and inconsistent instead of recognizing that it was they who misread or misunderstood what was actually said. :mshock:

If you want to disagree with what I actually said, that is fine. I will defend anything that I have said and I will stand corrected, if I believe that correction is warranted. But I can't just keep defending myself against things that I never said and don't believe. OK.  :thumbsup:

[Livelystone]

So according to you Chris, John's view of the GWT of people being resurrected to judgement and Christ's words of persons resurrected to shame and dishonor are not true

That reminds me of some other words of Jesus.......

Luke 12:20
But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee

[WhiteWings]

Again just a question and not taking sides....
What kind of ressurection are you talking about here?
- Only the spirit?
- Body?
- Body + spirit?
- A second after death?
- Possibly millenia after death?

[Chris]

So according to you Chris, John's view of the GWT of people being resurrected to judgement and Christ's words of persons resurrected to shame and dishonor are not true

That reminds me of some other words of Jesus.......

Luke 12:20
But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee

Once again you put words into my mouth that I have not said.

That reminds me of something too.

Those who lie in wait for blood... hunting their brothers with a net.  :mshock:

It seems that you  prefer to ACCUSE ME rather than just ASK ME what it is I believe? Is that right?

I give you links to bible studies that might help you better understand what I believe, since they go into much greater detail then my posts here, and you REFUSE to read them, but you still feel FREE to accuse me over my beliefs, anyway, not even knowing what they are.  :mshock:  

Stop pursuing me, Doug. You obviously have no idea what I believe or why. Neither have you bothered to listen to me when I have tried to explain it to you or point you to some of my personal studies that might make things a bit clearer for you. You seem to want me to sit at your feet and recognize you as one who is here "to teach me" but you do not wish to hear what I have to say because you have already concluded that you know well enough what I believe - though you quite obviously DO NOT or you would not always be accusing me of saying and believing things that I DO NOT.

Disagreeing WITH YOU is not the same things as disagreeing with THE WORD OF GOD! (And you've even accuse me of disagreeing with you when I haven't.  :grin:)

So I will ask you again to approach me differently or to not approach me at all. And I will thank you, in advance, for honoring my request.

Thanks!!

Chris

[Chris]

Again just a question and not taking sides....
What kind of ressurection are you talking about here?
- Only the spirit?
- Body?
- Body + spirit?
- A second after death?
- Possibly millenia after death?

Hi WhiteWings,

Who are you asking?

If me, what are you referring to as "here"? A particular post or just in general?

[Livelystone]

Chris said

Those who lie in wait for blood... hunting their brothers with a net. 

LOL....... if I thought I was the only one to read what you post I would never bother to make a reply. If I wanted to do as you suggest I would be going over all your posts

Once again you put words into my mouth that I have not said.

LOL again.......... I present that Judas went ON to wishing that he had never been born and then after YOU defer who the "him" is you change it to the manner of his earthly death............ and you say I am putting words in  your mouth......... you are a funny guy.

Chris....... Ever since Christ came in human flesh and a way given to man for man to destroy the evil within him that he was born with so that he can go on without it,  now is the time of judgement!!!......... afterwards it will be the time of sentencing that will be just like when in the OT law punishment was given to bring the offender in line with God (other than a death sentence)

So what if I do not use a quote button if I provide you a post # ............... go look and read them. After you said what you did in post 24 about "him" and even quoted other translations that capitalized the "H" there were others who took your post the same way that I did......... do you need those post #s or can you find them yourself?

Up until now I have not pursued you and have only posted when AFTER I see you influencing others........ that has  always  been my concept on when it becomes NECESSARY to speak but from now on I will keep a closer eye on what you are posting........ so thanks for the heads up  :thumbsup:

Doug

[jabcat]

Mod note - Once again, can I remind that we post "as I understand", "in my opinion" - discussion rather than teaching?  It really helps the discussion aspect of things, as this is a place for discussion, not a personal blog where any of our own teachings can take precedence and be the "accepted beliefs".

The mods often advocate for/against CERTAIN things, but this is often in accord with either Gary's wishes, or at least with his allowance of those POVs as this is his site.  

Things can be addressed more directly if need be, but I'm putting this out for a general reminder "if the shoe fits".  If it doesn't, ignore it.

We all are at different levels of understanding (revelation) and obedience.  If something is really obviously out of line according to the forum guidelines, not that it can't be addressed according to doctrinal beliefs/understandings by members - as DISCUSSION - but if things are to that critical point, then the mods need to handle it.  If it's more a matter of interpretation/understanding, and not blatant, clearly anti-scriptural things, then sometimes it may be best to say "well, I disagree and here's how I see it", then move on.


Please try to take this thread back to a "this is my understanding" level so it doesn't end up getting locked, and then others can't participate.  It's either those options, or we may end up deleting parts of individual posts that are divisive and/or taking on too personal a tone.  Thanks, James.

[Livelystone]

Again just a question and not taking sides....
What kind of ressurection are you talking about here?
- Only the spirit?
- Body?
- Body + spirit?
- A second after death?
- Possibly millenia after death?

Hello WW

I do not see where flesh and blood will be resurrected so I would have to go with spirit and soul

The soul is a body of a spirits and it is through the actions of the soul that we see the makeup of what spirit in it that we are dealing with. In Re. 21 we see the woman who is the bride for Christ  (Holy Spirit in us) coming down from heaven to us and then immediately afterwards the fact being proclaimed that the tabernacle of God being with man.

Paul speaks of different bodies in 1Cor 15

39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

Eve is a soul taken from flesh yet is not a physical earthly body but is a celestial " heavenly body of spirits"  that within us is the spirit of man (Adam). I do not know of any listing of the individual spirits that make up the soul for the spirit of man but for that of the Lord we see them listed in Isa. 11;2

Jesus in the flesh was the manifestation of the Soul of the Spirit of God. Eve in the flesh is the soul of man and is the manifestation of the spirit of man (Adam) As I see it is these spirits and souls resurrected from each "earthen vessel" that will be judged as is written in their book. For Christians who have the Holy Spirit and the woman adorned to be her bride that have attended the wedding would IMO be doing as well as could be....... Personally I see them as having obtained the first ressurection.

The millennia is said to thousand years but the Bible also says that thousand years is just a day. For those who reign with Christ are they only to be limited to 1000 years or is it possible that 1000 years being a day signifies to a different day as in age or a dispensation? I tend to think the latter.

I do draw that conclusion based largely on my own experience. I add that clarification because like Paul when he heard things that could not be lawfully uttered of when he was in the third heaven because there were not the other necessary witnesses....... and I respect the same law that requires at least two witnesses....... For my own edification I have two witnesses between my experience and what is written in Re. 20 11-13 but my own witness is not valid for teaching it as doctrine............ but I also have to consider the reason why God allowed that to happen and there is no reason for me not to believe that it will not be the same for everyone just as John said and that I also witnessed that was immediately following what man and machine both said was my physical death.

After all when Jesus said to the foolish man "tonight thy soul will be required of thee" certainly does not sound as if it would another 1000 years off before he faced the GWT.

Blessings

Doug

[Chris]

Chris said

Those who lie in wait for blood... hunting their brothers with a net. 

LOL....... if I thought I was the only one to read what you post I would never bother to make a reply. If I wanted to do as you suggest I would be going over all your posts

Once again you put words into my mouth that I have not said.

LOL again.......... I present that Judas went ON to wishing that he had never been born and then after YOU defer who the "him" is you change it to the manner of his earthly death............ and you say I am putting words in  your mouth......... you are a funny guy.

Chris....... Ever since Christ came in human flesh and a way given to man for man to destroy the evil within him that he was born with so that he can go on without it,  now is the time of judgement!!!......... afterwards it will be the time of sentencing that will be just like when in the OT law punishment was given to bring the offender in line with God (other than a death sentence)

So what if I do not use a quote button if I provide you a post # ............... go look and read them. After you said what you did in post 24 about "him" and even quoted other translations that capitalized the "H" there were others who took your post the same way that I did......... do you need those post #s or can you find them yourself?

Up until now I have not pursued you and have only posted when AFTER I see you influencing others........ that has  always  been my concept on when it becomes NECESSARY to speak but from now on I will keep a closer eye on what you are posting........ so thanks for the heads up  :thumbsup:

Doug

Bottom line is that I never said that anything other than the physical body goes to the grave at death; something that you tried to correct me on. Nor have I claimed that the "him" in Mar 14:21 was "Judas", which is what you claimed I said, even though you are even now pointing out the fact that I posted out the capital "H" used by CLV. I guess you think that Judas, rather than Christ, would be so noted with a capital "H"?

You say that others also understood me to be claiming that the "Him" (captial "H") was JUDAS? But you have not proven that anyone else here thought that I was saying that. Where can I find the post in which that can be demonstrated?

If you cannot prove your claims then you are doing nothing but bearing false witness against me and, apparently, you think nothing about it, nor about quoting a scripture that I am quite certain was meant to call me "a fool"; though you now want to take exception to me accusing you of laying in wait for blood with a net ready to try and trap me in response to it.

So yes, if you want to accuse me THEN QUOTE ME. That is the only PROPER thing to do, don't you think?

And I can only hope that the MODS are taking note of all of this and your apparent warning to now pursue my posts even more closely, as I have no intention of continuing to defend myself against your every accusation when they are almost always false and have nothing to do with anything that I have actually said.

So from now on I will simply ignore your posts and if you comment on mine, claiming that I have said things that I have NOT then I will simply point out FOR THE RECORD that I have NOT said what you are claiming and leave it at that and let those who read your accusations judge for themselves whether or not your accusations are true or false.

But, for the record, if you paid half as much attention to what I say and to how others are responding to what I say, as you claim you do, you might know by now that I am not actually "a guy" at all.  :laughing7:

[Beloved Servant]

lol lol lol

[Livelystone]

Chris said

So from now on I will simply ignore your posts

Is that a promise ?

Doug

[Cardinal]

The millennia is said to thousand years but the Bible also says that thousand years is just a day. For those who reign with Christ are they only to be limited to 1000 years or is it possible that 1000 years being a day signifies to a different day as in age or a dispensation? I tend to think the latter.

:cloud9: Here's some thoughts on that and I hope I can bring it out alright. If a day is as a thousand years, and that day is no part darkness as is Christ, that day IS Christ; HE IS the "1000 year day". The Spirit that He is has no beginning and no end, and so this day NEVER ENDS and has always been.

Further; all that are caught up into that day that is Christ, which is our spirit, the spirits of just men made perfect (the 7th day; seven literally means perfect, complete, sacred), IS also contained within this "day".

So this "day" then, has always existed but was not fully revealed to man since the garden when Adam walked within this "day" (His breath = the cool of the day). And all who have passed by way of the grave, their spirits are IN Christ, which is the "day" we're speaking of. Remember He is the bright and morning star (like the sun) which is the "mark" of the DAY.

This is why when He "comes" (and He's ALWAYS coming, the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow), He comes with 10,000's of His saints. Blessings....

[peacemaker]

But, for the record, if you paid half as much attention to what I say and to how others are responding to what I say, as you claim you do, you might know by now that I am not actually "a guy" at all.  :laughing7:

Chris writes eloquently, exercising appropriate speech.
Not like a man with a silver-tongue.  :laughhand:

"Thank you LORD, for this Day." Amen.