the rest of 1Tim 4

[natcat86]

Hi guys,

So 1Tim4:10 ' we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe'. God saves all men, but then it goes on to say 'Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.' that speaks of salvation through works to me. Its a bit confusing. Can anyone clarify these verses to me, they seem to contradict each other. Even those who dont believe will be saved, if you persevere in your ministry you will be saved.  :dontknow:

Nat

[Barry DuPont]

Hi guys,

So 1Tim4:10 ' we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe'. God saves all men, but then it goes on to say 'Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.' that speaks of salvation through works to me. Its a bit confusing. Can anyone clarify these verses to me, they seem to contradict each other. Even those who dont believe will be saved, if you persevere in your ministry you will be saved.  :dontknow:

Nat

It's the meaning of being a "firstfruit" of the general harvest. The firstfruits are the ones especially saved in this context. Christ died for all, but the firstfruits are exemplifying it.

Jam 1:18   Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. 
Jam 1:19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath: 
Jam 1:20   For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God. 
Jam 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. 
JMO
Blessings Barry

[sparrow]

Hi guys,

So 1Tim4:10 ' we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe'. God saves all men, but then it goes on to say 'Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.' that speaks of salvation through works to me. Its a bit confusing. Can anyone clarify these verses to me, they seem to contradict each other. Even those who dont believe will be saved, if you persevere in your ministry you will be saved.  :dontknow:

Nat

Hi Nat,
Just my take on it, but to me this speaks of finding life now. It is finished, all are already saved. However, when you begin to trust in that and walk in that faith and lean more into God and further AWAY from your carnal self, you are allowing love to enlargen in your heart. Love conquers all. There are many things in this life that will lead you down a wrong path. Fear is one of them. When you have FAITH in the good news of what God has done, when you have FAITH that God is who He says He is... and you start to shape your life around that, you are, in a sense walking in the heavenlies now, while on earth. It helps you to set your mind on eternal things, rather than temporal things. Seeing things through more spiritual eyes rather than carnal eyes. It's a journey. There are so many, for example who are slaves to the law out of fear of being burned to death for all eternity. When the good news actually comes alive in their heart and mind that THEY ARE SAVED. IT IS FINISHED! Then, they can slowly be set FREE from that paralyzing fear. When they start to understand what God is doing for ALL mankind.... then God can truly start to work on their heart, and slowly start to transform them. There is a lot of fear and anger out there from people not understanding just how wonderful God is. There is a lot of fear out there from people not truly understanding the heart of God for all mankind. There is a lot of fear out there from people not understanding that GOD is who He says HE is... (LOVE!) Fear leads a person down MANY paths of destruction. The narrow road leads to life.
If that doesn't make sense, just let me know and I will re-word it.
Sometimes it's hard to make what is in your heart, make sense in words.. :laughing7:  :HeartThrob:

[Raggedy Anne]

Hi Nat,
Just my take on it, but to me this speaks of finding life now. It is finished, all are already saved. However, when you begin to trust in that and walk in that faith and lean more into God and further AWAY from your carnal self, you are allowing love to enlargen in your heart. Love conquers all. There are many things in this life that will lead you down a wrong path. Fear is one of them.

:2thumbs:  Yes, Sparrow.  We are always moving in some direction.  I'd rather go forward than backward! 

[Seth]

Hi guys,

So 1Tim4:10 ' we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe'. God saves all men, but then it goes on to say 'Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.' that speaks of salvation through works to me. Its a bit confusing. Can anyone clarify these verses to me, they seem to contradict each other. Even those who dont believe will be saved, if you persevere in your ministry you will be saved.  :dontknow:

Nat

There is a thread I started regarding how good works and salvation fit together. I think what Paul is talking about is that while God will have all men to be saved. SOME folks are enjoying salvation now and that we are meant to abide in that salvation.....and CONTINUE in it.

The salvation I am talking about is salvation from sin, from the carnal mind that kept us slaves to wicked works, and by the Spirit of God we are to be saved from that carnal old man, so that we can be delivered unto good works in Christ. Salvation is about being healed from our former walk in sin.

So Paul is saying that we should maintain the gift given to US, right now, of that salvation, even though eventually God will have all men to be saved.

Here is the thread I was talking about.

[natcat86]

Thanks guys thats really clarified it for me. I think that the doctrine of hell is so ingrained tht I sometimes still think of salvation as pertaining to the after life, so saved from hell. But if there never has been a hell then salvation must be from separation from God so that goes from this life to the next. Thanks guys.

[Seth]

Hey brother, if you like, I wrote a paper all about it: http://mercifultruth.com/links-savedbygrace.htm

After many things were clarified to me through study research and conversation I put down what I learned as clearly as I could.

[Seth]

And you are right, if salvation is from mythical hell, then Paul was indeed teaching self salvation by good works to receive a future salvation. But if salvation is from sin, then what Paul was saying had to do with doing good rather than doing evil and in that, abiding in the gift of salvation we are given by the Spirit day to day. The latter is much more conformable to the rest of the NT writing.

[CHB]

Hi guys,

So 1Tim4:10 ' we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe'. God saves all men, but then it goes on to say 'Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.' that speaks of salvation through works to me. Its a bit confusing. Can anyone clarify these verses to me, they seem to contradict each other. Even those who dont believe will be saved, if you persevere in your ministry you will be saved.  :dontknow:

Nat

I have a different take on this and I know most will not see this the way I do but the books of the Bible are out of order and this was New Covenant teaching. Some works were required with the New Covenant. The Mystery was the final teaching that was given to Paul and you can see how Paul's writings changed a bit when he taught the Mystery. There are no works involved with the Mystery. Ephesians, Philippians, and Colossians should be positioned at the end of Paul's writings because they had more of the Mystery teachings in them, the final revelation.   

CHB

[Seth]

I actually can see how:

Colossians 1:9-11
For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God; Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;

Phillipians 1:6-11
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart; inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace. For God is my record, how greatly I long after you all in the bowels of Jesus Christ. And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment; That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ. Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

Philippians 3:17-19
Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

Ephesians 2:1-10
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.For by grace are ye saved through faith (we are talking about salvation FROM sin, not IN sin); and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Ephesians 4:17-29
This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. But ye have not so learned Christ; If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: Neither give place to the devil. Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth. Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

....is perfectly consistent with anything Paul ever said in any other previous epistle concerning salvation FROM sin, and how putting behind evil works and taking on good works is the outward of that salvation from the inner carnal mind. Not only is it all consistent with Paul's previous writings, but with all other epistles by John, James, Peter etc...

Sorry, I don't see any disconnect, or anything in the that implies "no works" just not "works of the law." Rather the works are the Righteousness of Christ within and through, not that there are "no works" at all.

[Zeek]

Col 1:21  And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

Col 1:22  In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblamable and unreprovable in his sight:

Col 1:23  If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

[Zeek]

Col 1:28  Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Col 1:29  Whereunto I also labor, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

[Zeek]

Col 3:5  Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

Col 3:6  For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

Rom 4:15  Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

[Zeek]

2Pe 1:10  Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Col 3:12  Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

[peacemaker]

Election is an act or instance of selecting, or the state of being selected, as in First-fruits; chosen. Therefore be attentive, putting on loving-kindness towards all men, endeavoring to be selected.

"Wherefore, lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word [Spirit], which is able to save your souls."

[CHB]

I actually can see how:

Colossians 1:9-11
For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God; Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;

Phillipians 1:6-11
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart; inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace. For God is my record, how greatly I long after you all in the bowels of Jesus Christ. And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment; That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ. Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

Philippians 3:17-19
Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

Ephesians 2:1-10
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.For by grace are ye saved through faith (we are talking about salvation FROM sin, not IN sin); and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Ephesians 4:17-29
This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. But ye have not so learned Christ; If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: Neither give place to the devil. Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth. Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

....is perfectly consistent with anything Paul ever said in any other previous epistle concerning salvation FROM sin, and how putting behind evil works and taking on good works is the outward of that salvation from the inner carnal mind. Not only is it all consistent with Paul's previous writings, but with all other epistles by John, James, Peter etc...

Sorry, I don't see any disconnect, or anything in the that implies "no works" just not "works of the law." Rather the works are the Righteousness of Christ within and through, not that there are "no works" at all.

What is wrong with this quote box it is all over the place it is so aggravating.

You said: Rather the works are the righteousness of Christ within and through, not that there are no works at all". Absolutely!! that is what I am getting at. It is no more our works but Christs. Paul came to see that we didn't have to be baptized, repent, keep the Lord's Supper, refrain from meats which were of the New Covenant

Here is an article about the Mystery. I don't agree with everything he says but he does speak a lot of truth.

http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d040101.htm

CHB

[Seth]

It's shouldn't be aggrivating if you agree with what I am saying: no more our works but Christ's works.

Your statement: "The Mystery was the final teaching that was given to Paul and you can see how Paul's writings changed a bit when he taught the Mystery. There are no works involved with the Mystery."

The idea that there are NO works is what I disagree with, especially since EVERYTHING I QUOTED in that quote box is from books that supposedly reflect a "no works" agenda, yet they DO reinforce works involved with the Mystery.

If you say they are Christ's works, fine, say that. But, don't blame me if I show that "good works" are indeed prevalent in those books.

Your statement: "and you can see how Paul's writings changed a bit when he taught the Mystery"

My point is that they did not change, which is why I showed the consistency between what he taught in those books regarding works in the New Covenant and how he NEVER changed his mind about good works, and how he ALWAYS promoted good works and NEVER promoted works of the law of Moses as any way to be justified.

[natcat86]

Hey Seth,

I will read your article, have been so blessed by many of them already.

What is The Mystery?

Nat

[Zeek]

i'm not Seth, but imo, that gentiles are fellow-heirs and fellow-members of the body, and fellow-partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

that Christ, through His cross, abolished the enmity between Jew and Gentile and formed of the two one "new man"

[Seth]

It is the Mystery of Christ (Ephesians 3:1–5)

Which is also the mystery of godliness in which God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. (1 Timothy 3:16)

It's the mystery hidden from ages past which has to do with a promise that was given through the Scripture of the Spirit, a promise which nobody understood in its fullness until the Spirit was given to know.

That is why Paul says that we must have Spiritual discernment to know what is given to us: the promise of Abraham, which is the promise of the Spirit of God through Christ. The mystery is the marriage between Christ and his church (Ephesians 5:32), is testifying about that same promise of the Spirit, the unifying of God and man by the Spirit (for whoever has the Spirit is ONE with God) like a man and a woman are one with eachother.

[Zeek]

It is the Mystery of Christ (Ephesians 3:1–5)

Which is also the mystery of godliness in which God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. (1 Timothy 3:16)

It's the mystery hidden from ages past which has to do with a promise that was given through the Scripture of the Spirit, a promise which nobody understood in its fullness until the Spirit was given to know.

That is why Paul says that we must have Spiritual discernment to know what is given to us: the promise of Abraham, which is the promise of the Spirit of God through Christ. The mystery is the marriage between Christ and his church (Ephesians 5:32), is testifying about that same promise of the Spirit, the unifying of God and man by the Spirit (for whoever has the Spirit is ONE with God) like a man and a woman are one with eachother.

:thumbsup:

Christ in you, your hope of glory.

[Doc]

And you are right, if salvation is from mythical hell, then Paul was indeed teaching self salvation by good works to receive a future salvation. But if salvation is from sin, then what Paul was saying had to do with doing good rather than doing evil and in that, abiding in the gift of salvation we are given by the Spirit day to day. The latter is much more conformable to the rest of the NT writing.

Just a note on this part of the conversation up to this point:
I have a friend who says (and I think he's right) that what we do demonstrates what we believe. In other words, action is the demonstration of the faith or belief that is there. Our faith becomes sight through our actions.

Now, you can take that too far, and say that the action is the faith or belief, but that is not correct.

We can be saved in one sense (positionally) without any action, but in order to experience that salvation as a practical day to day reality, action from that place must happen.

[Seth]

Well, I do agree that all are saved IN THE SENSE that the price has been paid and the fruit of the gift (the salvation of all) is an inevitability. But what Paul says in Philippians is that we should work out (the Greek word translated "work out" means "to perform" or "outwardly work") our salvation. The salvation starts from the mind, and if we are saved from the carnal mind which held us in slavery, we are to perform that salvation outwardly with fear and trembling because it is God in us who both wills and works of his good pleasure. This is because our salvation from a carnal mind occurs by the supernatural working of the Holy Spirit, and that working of a renewed mind, is to be performed outwardly.

I am sure I don't have to convince you, Doc, that not everyone has yet been saved actively from carnal mindedness....or the wicked works they do. Nor is it an intellectual realization of positional salvation that is the ultimate enabler of salvation from corruption and wickedness. It is, again, the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit. And, to those who seek, it will be given. As it says "blessed are those who thirst for righteousness, for they shall be FILLED" positionally? No, actually.

[CHB]

It's shouldn't be aggrivating if you agree with what I am saying: no more our works but Christ's works.

Hon, that doesn't have anything to do with the curser jumping up and down when trying to write in the quote box.  :laughing7:

Your statement: "The Mystery was the final teaching that was given to Paul and you can see how Paul's writings changed a bit when he taught the Mystery. There are no works involved with the Mystery."

Paul came to see that there are no more works involved in gaining salvation. The works we do is no longer our works but Christ working in us. Sorry if I didn't explain that good enough.

The idea that there are NO works is what I disagree with, especially since EVERYTHING I QUOTED in that quote box is from books that supposedly reflect a "no works" agenda, yet they DO reinforce works involved with the Mystery.

Sorry, I didn't explain myself good enough. It is hard to type when everytime you type a letter the box jumps up and down.

If you say they are Christ's works, fine, say that. But, don't blame me if I show that "good works" are indeed prevalent in those books.

What do you mean by "don't blame me"? Didn't know I was blaming any one for anything?

Your statement: "and you can see how Paul's writings changed a bit when he taught the Mystery"

My point is that they did not change, which is why I showed the consistency between what he taught in those books regarding works in the New Covenant and how he NEVER changed his mind about good works, and how he ALWAYS promoted good works and NEVER promoted works of the law of Moses as any way to be justified.

Yes, they did change, maybe you don't see it but I do.
In the beginning Paul talks about how important our faith is, later he says it is the faith of Christ that is most important. In the beginning Paul taught New Covenant to the Jews and to the Gentiles. Paul said we had to be grafted into Israel to be saved. Later he came to see we didn't need Israel we are of the family of God, not Israel.  With the New Covenant one had to be baptised, keep the Lord's Supper, have faith, repent. None of that is required with the Mystery. The New Covenant ties us with Israel and the earthly kingdom, the Mystery, or final revelation of salvation, puts us in the heavenlies.

CHB

[CHB]

Col 1:21  And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

Notice it says "now hath he reconciled".

Col 1:22  In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblamable and unreprovable in his sight:

Notice that he will present us holy. We have nothing to do with it.

Col 1:23  If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; [/quote]

But whose faith counts here?


CHB