Hi guys,
So 1Tim4:10 ' we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe'. God saves all men, but then it goes on to say 'Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.' that speaks of salvation through works to me. Its a bit confusing. Can anyone clarify these verses to me, they seem to contradict each other. Even those who dont believe will be saved, if you persevere in your ministry you will be saved. :dontknow:
Nat
Quote from: natcat86 on November 17, 2009, 12:35:21 PM
Hi guys,
So 1Tim4:10 ' we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe'. God saves all men, but then it goes on to say 'Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.' that speaks of salvation through works to me. Its a bit confusing. Can anyone clarify these verses to me, they seem to contradict each other. Even those who dont believe will be saved, if you persevere in your ministry you will be saved. :dontknow:
Nat
It's the meaning of being a "firstfruit" of the general harvest. The firstfruits are the ones especially saved in this context. Christ died for all, but the firstfruits are exemplifying it.
Jam 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
Jam 1:19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:
Jam 1:20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.
Jam 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
JMO
Blessings Barry
Quote from: natcat86 on November 17, 2009, 12:35:21 PM
Hi guys,
So 1Tim4:10 ' we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe'. God saves all men, but then it goes on to say 'Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.' that speaks of salvation through works to me. Its a bit confusing. Can anyone clarify these verses to me, they seem to contradict each other. Even those who dont believe will be saved, if you persevere in your ministry you will be saved. :dontknow:
Nat
Hi Nat,
Just my take on it, but to me this speaks of finding life now. It is finished, all are already saved. However, when you begin to trust in that and walk in that faith and lean more into God and further AWAY from your carnal self, you are allowing love to enlargen in your heart. Love conquers all. There are many things in this life that will lead you down a wrong path. Fear is one of them. When you have FAITH in the good news of what God has done, when you have FAITH that God is who He says He is... and you start to shape your life around that, you are, in a sense walking in the heavenlies now, while on earth. It helps you to set your mind on eternal things, rather than temporal things. Seeing things through more spiritual eyes rather than carnal eyes. It's a journey. There are so many, for example who are slaves to the law out of fear of being burned to death for all eternity. When the good news actually comes alive in their heart and mind that THEY ARE SAVED. IT IS FINISHED! Then, they can slowly be set FREE from that paralyzing fear. When they start to understand what God is doing for ALL mankind.... then God can truly start to work on their heart, and slowly start to transform them. There is a lot of fear and anger out there from people not understanding just how wonderful God is. There is a lot of fear out there from people not truly understanding the heart of God for all mankind. There is a lot of fear out there from people not understanding that GOD is who He says HE is... (LOVE!) Fear leads a person down MANY paths of destruction. The narrow road leads to life.
If that doesn't make sense, just let me know and I will re-word it.
Sometimes it's hard to make what is in your heart, make sense in words.. :laughing7: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Sparrow
Hi Nat,
Just my take on it, but to me this speaks of finding life now. It is finished, all are already saved. However, when you begin to trust in that and walk in that faith and lean more into God and further AWAY from your carnal self, you are allowing love to enlargen in your heart. Love conquers all. There are many things in this life that will lead you down a wrong path. Fear is one of them.
:2thumbs: Yes, Sparrow. We are always moving in some direction. I'd rather go forward than backward!
Quote from: natcat86 on November 17, 2009, 12:35:21 PM
Hi guys,
So 1Tim4:10 ' we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe'. God saves all men, but then it goes on to say 'Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.' that speaks of salvation through works to me. Its a bit confusing. Can anyone clarify these verses to me, they seem to contradict each other. Even those who dont believe will be saved, if you persevere in your ministry you will be saved. :dontknow:
Nat
There is a thread I started regarding how good works and salvation fit together. I think what Paul is talking about is that while God will have all men to be saved. SOME folks are enjoying salvation now and that we are meant to abide in that salvation.....and CONTINUE in it.
The salvation I am talking about is salvation from sin, from the carnal mind that kept us slaves to wicked works, and by the Spirit of God we are to be saved from that carnal old man, so that we can be delivered unto good works in Christ. Salvation is about being healed from our former walk in sin.
So Paul is saying that we should maintain the gift given to US, right now, of that salvation, even though eventually God will have all men to be saved.
Here is the thread I was talking about (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=6805.0).
Thanks guys thats really clarified it for me. I think that the doctrine of hell is so ingrained tht I sometimes still think of salvation as pertaining to the after life, so saved from hell. But if there never has been a hell then salvation must be from separation from God so that goes from this life to the next. Thanks guys.
Hey brother, if you like, I wrote a paper all about it: http://mercifultruth.com/links-savedbygrace.htm
After many things were clarified to me through study research and conversation I put down what I learned as clearly as I could.
And you are right, if salvation is from mythical hell, then Paul was indeed teaching self salvation by good works to receive a future salvation. But if salvation is from sin, then what Paul was saying had to do with doing good rather than doing evil and in that, abiding in the gift of salvation we are given by the Spirit day to day. The latter is much more conformable to the rest of the NT writing.
Quote from: natcat86 on November 17, 2009, 12:35:21 PM
Hi guys,
So 1Tim4:10 ' we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe'. God saves all men, but then it goes on to say 'Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.' that speaks of salvation through works to me. Its a bit confusing. Can anyone clarify these verses to me, they seem to contradict each other. Even those who dont believe will be saved, if you persevere in your ministry you will be saved. :dontknow:
Nat
I have a different take on this and I know most will not see this the way I do but the books of the Bible are out of order and this was New Covenant teaching. Some works were required with the New Covenant. The Mystery was the final teaching that was given to Paul and you can see how Paul's writings changed a bit when he taught the Mystery. There are no works involved with the Mystery. Ephesians, Philippians, and Colossians should be positioned at the end of Paul's writings because they had more of the Mystery teachings in them, the final revelation.
CHB
I actually can see how:
Colossians 1:9-11
For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God; Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;
Phillipians 1:6-11
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart; inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace. For God is my record, how greatly I long after you all in the bowels of Jesus Christ. And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment; That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ. Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.
Philippians 3:17-19
Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
Ephesians 2:1-10
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.For by grace are ye saved through faith (we are talking about salvation FROM sin, not IN sin); and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 4:17-29
This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. But ye have not so learned Christ; If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: Neither give place to the devil. Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth. Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
....is perfectly consistent with anything Paul ever said in any other previous epistle concerning salvation FROM sin, and how putting behind evil works and taking on good works is the outward of that salvation from the inner carnal mind. Not only is it all consistent with Paul's previous writings, but with all other epistles by John, James, Peter etc...
Sorry, I don't see any disconnect, or anything in the that implies "no works" just not "works of the law." Rather the works are the Righteousness of Christ within and through, not that there are "no works" at all.
Col 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
Col 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblamable and unreprovable in his sight:
Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
Col 1:29 Whereunto I also labor, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.
Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
Election is an act or instance of selecting, or the state of being selected, as in First-fruits; chosen. Therefore be attentive, putting on loving-kindness towards all men, endeavoring to be selected.
"Wherefore, lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word [Spirit], which is able to save your souls."
Quote from: Seth on November 18, 2009, 04:40:25 AM
I actually can see how:
Colossians 1:9-11
For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God; Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;
Phillipians 1:6-11
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart; inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace. For God is my record, how greatly I long after you all in the bowels of Jesus Christ. And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment; That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ. Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.
Philippians 3:17-19
Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
Ephesians 2:1-10
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.For by grace are ye saved through faith (we are talking about salvation FROM sin, not IN sin); and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 4:17-29
This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. But ye have not so learned Christ; If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: Neither give place to the devil. Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth. Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
....is perfectly consistent with anything Paul ever said in any other previous epistle concerning salvation FROM sin, and how putting behind evil works and taking on good works is the outward of that salvation from the inner carnal mind. Not only is it all consistent with Paul's previous writings, but with all other epistles by John, James, Peter etc...
Sorry, I don't see any disconnect, or anything in the that implies "no works" just not "works of the law." Rather the works are the Righteousness of Christ within and through, not that there are "no works" at all.
What is wrong with this quote box it is all over the place it is so aggravating.
You said: Rather the works are the righteousness of Christ within and through, not that there are no works at all". Absolutely!! that is what I am getting at. It is no more our works but Christs. Paul came to see that we didn't have to be baptized, repent, keep the Lord's Supper, refrain from meats which were of the New Covenant
Here is an article about the Mystery. I don't agree with everything he says but he does speak a lot of truth.
http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d040101.htm
CHB
It's shouldn't be aggrivating if you agree with what I am saying: no more our works but Christ's works.
Your statement: "The Mystery was the final teaching that was given to Paul and you can see how Paul's writings changed a bit when he taught the Mystery. There are no works involved with the Mystery."
The idea that there are NO works is what I disagree with, especially since EVERYTHING I QUOTED in that quote box is from books that supposedly reflect a "no works" agenda, yet they DO reinforce works involved with the Mystery.
If you say they are Christ's works, fine, say that. But, don't blame me if I show that "good works" are indeed prevalent in those books.
Your statement: "and you can see how Paul's writings changed a bit when he taught the Mystery"
My point is that they did not change, which is why I showed the consistency between what he taught in those books regarding works in the New Covenant and how he NEVER changed his mind about good works, and how he ALWAYS promoted good works and NEVER promoted works of the law of Moses as any way to be justified.
Hey Seth,
I will read your article, have been so blessed by many of them already.
What is The Mystery?
Nat
i'm not Seth, but imo, that gentiles are fellow-heirs and fellow-members of the body, and fellow-partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
that Christ, through His cross, abolished the enmity between Jew and Gentile and formed of the two one "new man"
It is the Mystery of Christ (Ephesians 3:1–5)
Which is also the mystery of godliness in which God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. (1 Timothy 3:16)
It's the mystery hidden from ages past which has to do with a promise that was given through the Scripture of the Spirit, a promise which nobody understood in its fullness until the Spirit was given to know.
That is why Paul says that we must have Spiritual discernment to know what is given to us: the promise of Abraham, which is the promise of the Spirit of God through Christ. The mystery is the marriage between Christ and his church (Ephesians 5:32), is testifying about that same promise of the Spirit, the unifying of God and man by the Spirit (for whoever has the Spirit is ONE with God) like a man and a woman are one with eachother.
Quote from: Seth on November 18, 2009, 09:35:06 PM
It is the Mystery of Christ (Ephesians 3:1–5)
Which is also the mystery of godliness in which God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. (1 Timothy 3:16)
It's the mystery hidden from ages past which has to do with a promise that was given through the Scripture of the Spirit, a promise which nobody understood in its fullness until the Spirit was given to know.
That is why Paul says that we must have Spiritual discernment to know what is given to us: the promise of Abraham, which is the promise of the Spirit of God through Christ. The mystery is the marriage between Christ and his church (Ephesians 5:32), is testifying about that same promise of the Spirit, the unifying of God and man by the Spirit (for whoever has the Spirit is ONE with God) like a man and a woman are one with eachother.
:thumbsup:
Christ in you, your hope of glory.
Quote from: Seth on November 17, 2009, 11:14:39 PM
And you are right, if salvation is from mythical hell, then Paul was indeed teaching self salvation by good works to receive a future salvation. But if salvation is from sin, then what Paul was saying had to do with doing good rather than doing evil and in that, abiding in the gift of salvation we are given by the Spirit day to day. The latter is much more conformable to the rest of the NT writing.
Just a note on this part of the conversation up to this point:
I have a friend who says (and I think he's right) that what we do demonstrates what we believe. In other words, action
is the demonstration of the faith or belief that is there. Our faith becomes sight through our actions.
Now, you can take that too far, and say that the action
is the faith or belief, but that is not correct.
We can be saved in one sense (positionally) without any action, but in order to experience that salvation as a practical day to day reality, action from that place must happen.
Well, I do agree that all are saved IN THE SENSE that the price has been paid and the fruit of the gift (the salvation of all) is an inevitability. But what Paul says in Philippians is that we should work out (the Greek word translated "work out" means "to perform" or "outwardly work") our salvation. The salvation starts from the mind, and if we are saved from the carnal mind which held us in slavery, we are to perform that salvation outwardly with fear and trembling because it is God in us who both wills and works of his good pleasure. This is because our salvation from a carnal mind occurs by the supernatural working of the Holy Spirit, and that working of a renewed mind, is to be performed outwardly.
I am sure I don't have to convince you, Doc, that not everyone has yet been saved actively from carnal mindedness....or the wicked works they do. Nor is it an intellectual realization of positional salvation that is the ultimate enabler of salvation from corruption and wickedness. It is, again, the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit. And, to those who seek, it will be given. As it says "blessed are those who thirst for righteousness, for they shall be FILLED" positionally? No, actually.
Quote from: Seth on November 18, 2009, 09:17:21 PM
It's shouldn't be aggrivating if you agree with what I am saying: no more our works but Christ's works.
Hon, that doesn't have anything to do with the curser jumping up and down when trying to write in the quote box. :laughing7:
Quote from: seth
Your statement: "The Mystery was the final teaching that was given to Paul and you can see how Paul's writings changed a bit when he taught the Mystery. There are no works involved with the Mystery."
Paul came to see that there are no more works involved in gaining salvation. The works we do is no longer our works but Christ working in us. Sorry if I didn't explain that good enough.
Quote from: seth
The idea that there are NO works is what I disagree with, especially since EVERYTHING I QUOTED in that quote box is from books that supposedly reflect a "no works" agenda, yet they DO reinforce works involved with the Mystery.
Sorry, I didn't explain myself good enough. It is hard to type when everytime you type a letter the box jumps up and down.
Quote from: seth
If you say they are Christ's works, fine, say that. But, don't blame me if I show that "good works" are indeed prevalent in those books.
What do you mean by "don't blame me"? Didn't know I was blaming any one for anything?
Quote from: seth
Your statement: "and you can see how Paul's writings changed a bit when he taught the Mystery"
My point is that they did not change, which is why I showed the consistency between what he taught in those books regarding works in the New Covenant and how he NEVER changed his mind about good works, and how he ALWAYS promoted good works and NEVER promoted works of the law of Moses as any way to be justified.
Yes, they did change, maybe you don't see it but I do.
In the beginning Paul talks about how important our faith is, later he says it is the faith of Christ that is most important. In the beginning Paul taught New Covenant to the Jews and to the Gentiles. Paul said we had to be grafted into Israel to be saved. Later he came to see we didn't need Israel we are of the family of God, not Israel. With the New Covenant one had to be baptised, keep the Lord's Supper, have faith, repent. None of that is required with the Mystery. The New Covenant ties us with Israel and the earthly kingdom, the Mystery, or final revelation of salvation, puts us in the heavenlies.
CHB
Quote from: Zeek on November 18, 2009, 05:11:43 AM
Col 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
Notice it says "
now hath he reconciled".Quote from: Zeek
Col 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblamable and unreprovable in his sight:
Notice that
he will present us holy. We have nothing to do with it.
Col 1:23
If ye
continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was
preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; [/quote]
But whose faith counts here?
CHB
Quote from: CHB on November 19, 2009, 12:23:36 AM
Quote from: Seth on November 18, 2009, 09:17:21 PM
It's shouldn't be aggrivating if you agree with what I am saying: no more our works but Christ's works.
Hon, that doesn't have anything to do with the curser jumping up and down when trying to write in the quote box. :laughing7:
Ah, I totally didn't get that because my screen doesn't do that. So I actually thought that you were saying that what I wrote was jumping all around thematically and that you were aggravated by it. That totally perplexed me because from what I saw, we were in agreement as to how works do fit into the Mystery even thought they are not generated by our own self.
QuoteWhat do you mean by "don't blame me"? Didn't know I was blaming any one for anything?
See above.
QuoteYes, they did change, maybe you don't see it but I do.
In the beginning Paul talks about how important our faith is, later he says it is the faith of Christ that is most important. In the beginning Paul taught New Covenant to the Jews and to the Gentiles. Paul said we had to be grafted into Israel to be saved. Later he came to see we didn't need Israel we are of the family of God, not Israel. With the New Covenant one had to be baptised, keep the Lord's Supper, have faith, repent. None of that is required with the Mystery. The New Covenant ties us with Israel and the earthly kingdom, the Mystery, or final revelation of salvation, puts us in the heavenlies.
I actually don't see those as different or changed, rather different ways of saying the same thing. For example, the thing about Israel. Israel is actually "God's first born son."
Matthew 2:13-15, Hosea 11:1-2, Exodus 4:22-23
That being so, I see Paul's statement about being grafted into Israel (the first born Son) to be saved, and being the family of God as being the same statement, not a progressive change.
You said this: "With the New Covenant one had to be baptised, keep the Lord's Supper, have faith, repent. None of that is required with the Mystery. "
I think it depends on what you mean by those things, and what you think Paul meant. For example, since the mystery is unification of God with man through the Spirit, baptism is essential, if you are talking about baptism of the Spirit. Now if we are talking about SYMBOLIC acts which POINT to the Spirit, they are not necessary.
However, you said: "There are no works involved with the Mystery." That is what I disagreed with because there are works involved with it. In fact the mystery is revealed SO THAT we may be saved from what we once were enslaved to, that good works may be produced in us. That is why I quoted from the books you mentioned to show that there was NO departure from Paul as to what the mystery was for and what it was meant to produce. Paul stressed the importance of good works in those books just as much as he did in any other.
And the thing about Christ's faith, I think to me just means that we do need to have faith, yet it is the faith of Christ given to us as a gift "crying abba father." So, while we do have faith, it is Christ's faith that is given to us. Again, I see all these things reinforced through Paul's message throughout his epistles. If there are variations on ways of saying things, doesn't mean that the message changed.
CHB, was Romans written before or after Paul received the "mystery" knowledge??
and before the mystery revealed to Paul, in the "new covenant", was the faith required "our own faith" or the "faith of Christ", a gift, dealt from God?
...also in 1 Corinthians 12 faith is noted as being a gift of the Spirit.
Quote from: Seth on November 19, 2009, 01:56:28 AM
...also in 1 Corinthians 12 faith is noted as being a gift of the Spirit.
yes, from God
Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace that was given to me, to every one who is among you, not to think above what it behoveth to think; but to think so as to think wisely, as to each God did deal
a measure of faith,
and
"of Jesus", even in his early writings (Romans , at least I think Romans was written early; as to why I ask that of CHB)
Rom 3:22 and the righteousness of God is through the
faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon
all those believing, --for there is no difference,
Quote from: CHB on November 18, 2009, 09:00:49 PMWhat is wrong with this quote box it is all over the place it is so aggravating.
Not a real solutionto your problem but what if you prepare your message in Notepad and afterwards past it back to the forum?
I'm trying to follow this thread. It seems like it is an argument about several things: 1) Who is saved - who is not 2) Can one lose salvation 3) Who chooses whom, do we choose God or does he choose us?
Here is the way I see it. I am saved by God's grace. I never felt saved until in His time He delivered my soul from the fear of death and my mind from wicked works, etc... For years, I believed in God and in Jesus, but had no true rest, no settled feeling of peace about my relationship with him. That is because it was not of me being willing, but in His hands. We are warned to never take God's grace in vain and we should take such warnings seriously because we are completely dependent on God for our peace of mind and our assurance of faith. God could, if he thought it necessary, hide himself at any time and leave us desperate, say if we had become proud in our hearts and needed to be humbled. In that sense, yes, a person could lose their salvation or shipwreck their faith. I depend on God every day to keep my candle lit, to keep my lamp filled with oil because without him, I would be so lost in a very dark world, a very troubled world.
Just thought I'd add this to the discussion while it is on my heart.
Anne
A verse that has been in my head a lot lately is Psalm 37:4 Delight yourself in the LORD and he will give you the desires of your heart. I was thinking that if you are delighting yourself in the Lord you will be a naturally sinning less. Not just trying to be good out of obligation but like in any relationship where you are delighted with that person you are naturally more attentive the things that will please them. Also to get to the point where you are delighted in the Lord to have a relationship that close you must be spending lots of time in prayer and reading your bible. the more you get to know him the more you will understand why it is that sin is sin and why we should want to be more christ like.
What is it they say, sun light is the best disinfectant, the more time you spend in the light (Christ) the more He will disinfect you.
If you are delighted in the Lord the desires of your heart will all be things which will make you more Christ like.
If you are saved and loving God you are becoming more Christlike every day.
Hi Seth, Zeek,
I will explain this in the shortest possible way and to the best of my ability and the way I understand it all. Sorry it took me so long to get back with you, I just don't have a lot of time to post much.
The Covenants Old and New were ONLY for the Israelites (Jer. 31:32-34) The Lord says he will make A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND THE HOUSE OF JUDAH. There is nothing said about Gentiles here. (Rom. 9:4) This also shows that the covenants and promises were only to Israel.
Also in (Eph.2:11-12) Paul says that the Gentiles were strangers from the covenants of promise. paul made it clear that as long as Gentiles remained Gentiles they were excluded from the promises and covenants. Gentiles had to be grafted into Israel to receive the promises.
(Heb. 8:6) When Christ was crucified that established the New Covenant with Israel, not Gentiles, remember Christ said "I am ONLY sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel".
After Christ was crucified the apostles along with Paul started preaching the New Covenant, that is all they knew about. Later Paul saw that he was chosen to go to the Gentiles. Paul still preached the New Covenant most of the time because he was prevented from preaching the Mystery. If you notice Paul kept asking for prayer so that he could preach this message as he thought he should but that didn't happen.
The first mention of the Mystery was in (Romans 16:25) but Paul only mentions it briefly as he acknowledges in (Eph. 3:1-) this whole chapter of Ephesians talks about the Mystery. No one knew about this until it was revealed to Paul. As he says in verse 1, teaching this mystery is why he is in prison.
This Mystery wasn't the New Covenant, it was better than the New Covenant in that one didn't have to be grafted into Israel, or be attached to israel to become saved. Paul began to understand that we were of the family of God, not Israel. We are a child of God, not Israel. We are in Christ, not Israel. All of the laws were no longer necessary to be saved. Remember how the apostles preached, repentance and baptism in order be saved? As Paul said in (Eph. 3:6) now we are fellowheirs and of the same {BODY,CHRIST} not {Bride, Israel}, and partakers of HIS PROMISE IN CHRIST, not Israel.
Under the New Covenant the epistles show that God recognized two types of Israelites on earth. The first were Israelites of the flesh who accepted Christ and the others were newly adopted "Israelites" who were Gentiles in the flesh but now called the "Israel of God" because of being in Christ. The Gentiles reckoned as Israelites were given duties far less stringent than ordinary Israelites. Still, under the New Covenant all were acknowledge as Israelites.
The Mystery is a better understanding of what God had planned for all people concerning salvation. It is the final stage of understanding the Gospel.
The faith we have now is no longer our faith but that of Christ. The works we do now is no longer our works but Christ working in anf=d through us. We no longer need baptism or keep the Lord's Supper to be saved. Our citizenship is now in heaven, not on earth. We are not the Israel of God but the family of God.
The Mystery wasn't preached much as you can see once you understand it and know what to look for. Paul was constantly asking that prayers be made for him so that a door would be opened for him to preach the Gospel.
Even today people want to be associated with Israel and try to claim the New Covenant applies to themselves when in fact it was only for Israel.
CHB
Is this "new covenant teaching" or "mystery teaching"?
Rom 3:22 and the righteousness of God is through the faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believing, --for there is no difference
Quote from: natcat86 on November 19, 2009, 03:55:53 PM
If you are delighted in the Lord the desires of your heart will all be things which will make you more Christ like.
If you are saved and loving God you are becoming more Christlike every day.
Amen Check this out:
Psalm 37:4-6
Delight thyself also in the LORD: and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart. Commit thy way unto the LORD; trust also in him;
and he shall bring it to pass. And he shall
bring forth thy righteousness as the light, and thy judgment as the noonday.
So what I see there, is that the desires of our heart is something actually that God gives to us, THEN carries that desire to pass, and in doing so brings forth the righteousness he gave us to be ours.
So you are exactly right, if God plants desires in our hearts then brings it to pass, those desires will be Christ like because they are FROM Christ.
Philippians 2:12-13
Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to
will and to
act according to his good purpose.
Quote from: CHB on November 19, 2009, 06:27:01 PM
I will explain this in the shortest possible way and to the best of my ability and the way I understand it all. Sorry it took me so long to get back with you, I just don't have a lot of time to post much.
Thank you for your patience, and no need to apologize.
QuoteThe Covenants Old and New were ONLY for the Israelites (Jer. 31:32-34) The Lord says he will make A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND THE HOUSE OF JUDAH. There is nothing said about Gentiles here. (Rom. 9:4) This also shows that the covenants and promises were only to Israel.
Actually that is where I disagree.
Paul shows that when God was talking through the prophets of old about Israel's return to the land, he was actually talking about the establishment of a new people who would be called Jews.
Hosea 2:14-17, 20-23
I am now going to allure her; I will lead her into the desert and speak tenderly to her. There I will give her back her vineyards, and will make the Valley of Achor a door of hope. There she will sing as in the days of her youth, as in the day she came up out of Egypt. "In that day," declares the LORD, "
you will call me 'my husband'; you will no longer call me 'my master.' I will remove the names of the Baals from her lips; no longer will their names be invoked.
I will betroth you in faithfulness, and you will acknowledge the LORD. "In that day I will respond," declares the LORD— "I will respond to the skies, and they will respond to the earth; and the earth will respond to the grain, the new wine and oil, and they will respond to Jezreel.
I will plant her for myself in the land; I will show my love to the one I called 'Not my loved one.' I will say to those called 'Not my people,' 'You are my people'; and they will say, 'You are my God.'"Carnally discerned, the prophecy says nothing about "gentiles." But Paul's interpretation applied to both Jews and Gentiles in the Spirit:
Rom 9:23-25
What if he did that to show the riches of his glory
to others? Those are the people he shows his mercy to. He had prepared them to receive his glory. We are those people. He has chosen us.
We do not come only from the Jewish race. Many of us are not Jews. God says in Hosea,
"I will call those who are not my people 'my people.' I will call the one who is not my loved one 'my loved one.'" He also says, "Once it was said to them, "You are not my people.' In that very place they will be called 'children of the living God.'"Paul interpreted Hosea spiritually, because he knew that Spiritual discernment is needed to understand what is given to us (1 Corinthians 2:11). So, Paul applied that spiritual discernment to know that when God spoke about bringing scattered Jews back to the land, he was talking about increasing the family of God, because to be a Jew is NOT outwardly according to the circumcision of the flesh (people who weren't circumcised were not Jews, regardless of their parentage), but IS inwardly according to circumcision by the SPIRIT.
So, the new covenant with the house of Israel IS the covenant with BOTH Gentiles and Jews who are circumcised by the SPIRIT.
QuoteAlso in (Eph.2:11-12) Paul says that the Gentiles were strangers from the covenants of promise. paul made it clear that as long as Gentiles remained Gentiles they were excluded from the promises and covenants. Gentiles had to be grafted into Israel to receive the promises.
The "times past" that Paul is speaking about there, is when to be a Jew was to by circumcised by the flesh. That is why Paul says to them:
Eph.2
13
But now in Christ Jesus
ye who sometimes were far off a
re made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Paul's point there is that NOW, since to be a Jew is to be inward according to circumcision by the Spirit, being Gentiles according to the flesh, DOES NOT keep them form the promise even if they were once conc. The promise of Abraham IS the promise of the HOLY SPIRIT. So, as long as someone is a Gentile,
they ARE excluded, but the definition of Gentile now is NOT being circumcised in the heart by the Spirit. So they are only excluded because they have not yet believed.
Galatians 3:1
(God) redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, SO THAT
by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
Quote(Heb. 8:6) When Christ was crucified that established the New Covenant with Israel, not Gentiles, remember Christ said "I am ONLY sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel".
That's right. The lost sheep of the house of Israel are the same ones Paul referred to as "once not a people, now a people" anyone with the Spirit once were lost now are found.
QuoteThis Mystery wasn't the New Covenant, it was better than the New Covenant in that one didn't have to be grafted into Israel, or be attached to israel to become saved.
As I have stated before I disagree.
Look at this prophecy:
Hosea 11:1-2
The LORD continues,"When Israel was a young nation, I loved them.
I chose to bring my son out of Egypt. But the more I called out to Israel, the further they went away from me. They brought sacrifices to the statues of the gods that were named after Baal. And they burned incense to them.
Exodus 4:22-23
Then (Moses) say to Pharaoh, 'This is what the LORD says:
Israel is my firstborn son, and I told you,
"Let my son go, so he may worship me." But you refused to let him go; so I will kill your firstborn son.'"
And see how, hidden in that prophecy is Christ:
Matthew 2:13-15
An angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream. "Get up," he said, "take (Jesus) and his mother and escape to Egypt. Stay there until I tell you, for Herod is going to search for the child to kill him." So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt, They stayed there until King Herod died.
So the words the Lord had spoken through the prophet came true. He had said, "I chose to bring my son out of Egypt."Israel IS the first born son, It's JESUS!
That means to be grafted into Israel is to be GRAFTED INTO CHRIST. Going back to what Paul said: A Jew is not outward according to circumcision of the flesh, but of the heart by the Spirit. That is why to be saved, one MUST be grafted into Christ, because that is how one puts on the mind of Christ and is saved from the mind of the flesh.
QuoteUnder the New Covenant the epistles show that God recognized two types of Israelites on earth. The first were Israelites of the flesh who accepted Christ and the others were newly adopted "Israelites" who were Gentiles in the flesh but now called the "Israel of God" because of being in Christ.
This is the same as "the mystery." BOTH are ONE with Christ, both the remnant of physical Jews and Gentiles who are both Jews according to God's new definition of Spiritual oneness with Christ.
That means Israel of God is the SAME as "the mystery" because the Mystery speaks of oneness with God by the Spirit.
QuoteThe faith we have now is no longer our faith but that of Christ. The works we do now is no longer our works but Christ working in anf=d through us. We no longer need baptism or keep the Lord's Supper to be saved. Our citizenship is now in heaven, not on earth. We are not the Israel of God but the family of God.
We are BOTH the Israel of God (because we are in the First born Son, who is Israel, AND we are the family of God). The two are not separate concepts.
QuoteEven today people want to be associated with Israel and try to claim the New Covenant applies to themselves when in fact it was only for Israel.
I am one of those people because I know what Israel really is.
CHB I totally agree with your whole post and will record it, I know that you put a lot of work into it , But you are right on many counts, especially it being the short version.
Lee
Seth, hope your not offended, but I believe you are totally grasping for straws to get your belief Believed, Jesus is not Israel. Carnally or Spiritually. That would be like me marrying my self. Bride and Groom in one.
Sorry Seth, I just see so much justification in your post to get your "story" across. IMO Please don't be offended, it is just how "I" feel.
I will never be a follower of The Law. Or a beaker of said law. "sinner"
Lee Damboise II Gentiles were never sinners.
Quote from: Lee Damboise on November 19, 2009, 09:19:48 PM
Seth, hope your not offended, but I believe you are totally grasping for straws to get your belief Believed, Jesus is not Israel. Carnally or Spiritually. That would be like me marrying my self. Bride and Groom in one.
Not offended. Israel was prophetically Christ as the Bible says. You don't have to believe that if you don't want to. I am not forcing you to believe anything.
The mystery is ONEness. The reason it is a mystery is because when you say: "that would be like me marrying myself" you demonstrate the mysterious quality of ONEness in two people conjoined by the Spirit. Christ is Israel, We are IN Christ, and are IN Israel. And we therefore ARE Israel. Hence, the mystery. As he is so are we in this world. The
two are
one.
You ever wonder why when you marry someone, that person's sister is called your sister (ie sister in law?) That doesn't mean you are committing incest. It's that way because God looks at the two as ONE. So my father is my wife's father, and her brother and sister are my brother and sister.
In the same way, Christ is Israel and we are Israel by virtue of being in Christ. The two are one.
QuoteSorry Seth, I just see so much justification in your post to get your "story" across. IMO Please don't be offended, it is just how "I" feel.
As I said, I am not offended. Feel however you need to feel. You haven't shown me wrong, you have basically just handed me one big "nuh uh." What am I supposed to do with that?
QuoteI will never be a follower of The Law.
Is that what this is about?
Yes
Seth I do hear what you are saying and these also reveal part of the mystery Paul speaks of in Revelations / revealing the mystery of godliness
Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort [you] that you should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints
Hbr 6:10 For God [is] not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have showed toward his name, in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
and CHB is speaking of this Faith being the Lords faith
I can also see this too
Jam 2:14 What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be [ye] warmed and filled; notwithstanding you give them not those things which are needful to the body; what [doth it] profit?
Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it has not works, is dead, being alone.
Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, You have faith, and I have works: show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
Rev 2:13 I know your works, and where you dwell, [even] where Satan's seat [is]: and you hold fast my name, and have not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas [was] my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwells.
in a nutshell , it all comes from God /Love and Love for God , the real deal not the fake stuff so men can think anyone is godlike :msealed:
15but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.
16By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness:
He who was revealed in the flesh,
Was vindicated in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Proclaimed among the nations,
Believed on in the world,
Taken up in glory.
:HeartThrob:
:HeartThrob:
James is % 100 percent written to followers of Law, and not to be taken for a Gentile as rules, just understanding of how God delt with His people, "then" and not to todays gentiles.
Rev. is not to us either unless your a born Jew. the whole book is written to a people and at the time it was never intended as a book for Gentiles, it is % 100 percent a book to reveal The Christ in Creation...The whole book. IMO
Quote from: rosered on November 19, 2009, 10:09:30 PM
Seth I do hear what you are saying and these also reveal part of the mystery Paul speaks of in Revelations / revealing the mystery of godliness
Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort [you] that you should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints
Hbr 6:10 For God [is] not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have showed toward his name, in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
and CHB is speaking of this Faith being the Lords faith
I can also see this too
Jam 2:14 What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be [ye] warmed and filled; notwithstanding you give them not those things which are needful to the body; what [doth it] profit?
Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it has not works, is dead, being alone.
Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, You have faith, and I have works: show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
Rev 2:13 I know your works, and where you dwell, [even] where Satan's seat [is]: and you hold fast my name, and have not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas [was] my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwells.
in a nutshell , it all comes from God /Love and Love for God , the real deal not the fake stuff so men can think your godlike :msealed:
:HeartThrob:
:HeartThrob:
Exactly. The works that save are a manifestation of God which wills and works through us. Yet I do not see this message changing over the course of time in Paul's epistles. I see His epistles consistently speaking that message.
We have faith, yet our faith is ours because it has been given as a gift of God. 1 Corinthians 12 speaks on that as clear as crystal. Those 1 Cor 12 works are things we do, yet we do them because they have been gifted through us. So because Paul speaks of "your faith" and "faith of Christ" doesn't mean he is talking about separate things. They are both the same thing.
And as you demonstrate, the works that save have saving power in the sense that they are opposite of the evil works done in in the previous old man. If we are saying we have faith and are working evil anyway, that faith is not complete as to what was intended by faith....salvation.
Good stuff rose.
Quote from: Lee Damboise on November 19, 2009, 10:18:00 PM
James is % 100 percent written to followers of Law, and not to be taken for a Gentile as rules, just understanding of how God delt with His people, "then" and not to todays gentiles.
Rev. is not to us either unless your a born Jew. the whole book is written to a people and at the time it was never intended as a book for Gentiles, it is % 100 percent a book to reveal The Christ in Creation...The whole book. IMO
We cannot take out parts of the bible to suit ourselves and form our ideas as truth Lee .
to me its ALL or nothing .. Love God first and your neighbour as yourself and everything else just seems to fall into its proper place .. :HeartThrob:
Rose do you believe in following all 640 penned laws of Moses??? In "the bible" ????
Quote from: Seth on November 19, 2009, 10:24:55 PM
Quote from: rosered on November 19, 2009, 10:09:30 PM
Seth I do hear what you are saying and these also reveal part of the mystery Paul speaks of in Revelations / revealing the mystery of godliness
Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort [you] that you should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints
Hbr 6:10 For God [is] not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have showed toward his name, in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
and CHB is speaking of this Faith being the Lords faith
I can also see this too
Jam 2:14 What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be [ye] warmed and filled; notwithstanding you give them not those things which are needful to the body; what [doth it] profit?
Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it has not works, is dead, being alone.
Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, You have faith, and I have works: show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
Rev 2:13 I know your works, and where you dwell, [even] where Satan's seat [is]: and you hold fast my name, and have not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas [was] my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwells.
in a nutshell , it all comes from God /Love and Love for God , the real deal not the fake stuff so men can think your godlike :msealed:
:HeartThrob:
:HeartThrob:
Exactly. The works that save are a manifestation of God which wills and works through us. Yet I do not see this message changing over the course of time in Paul's epistles. I see His epistles consistently speaking that message.
We have faith, yet our faith is ours because it has been given as a gift of God. 1 Corinthians 12 speaks on that as clear as crystal. Those 1 Cor 12 works are things we do, yet we do them because they have been gifted through us. So because Paul speaks of "your faith" and "faith of Christ" doesn't mean he is talking about separate things. They are both the same thing.
And as you demonstrate, the works that save have saving power in the sense that they are opposite of the evil works done in in the previous old man. If we are saying we have faith and are working evil anyway, that faith is not complete as to what was intended by faith....salvation.
Good stuff rose.
Seth you simplified it great !
I agree , also we are to be carful how we
handle the Word of Truth we see alot the same things in the same way :thumbsup:
we cannot do anything against the Truth but for the Truth and thats a great work /cause for the Glory of God and His Son Christ / annointed ..... :HeartThrob:
James is written to the 12 Tribes of Israel, of which WE ARE.
Romans 2
13 For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified.
14 For whenever they of the nations that have no law, BY NATURE may be doing that which the law demands, these, having no law, are a law to themselves,
15 who are displaying the action of the law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying together and their reckonings between one another, accusing or defending them,
16 in the day when God will be judging the hidden things of humanity, according to my evangel, through Jesus Christ.
17 Lo! you are being denominated a Jew, and are resting on law, and are boasting in God,
18 and know the will, and are testing what things are of consequence, being instructed out of the law.
19 Besides, you have confidence in yourself to be a guide of the blind, a light of those in darkness,
20 a discipliner of the imprudent, a teacher of minors, having the form of knowledge and the truth in the law.
21 You, then, who are teaching another, you are not teaching yourself! who are heralding not to be stealing, you are stealing!
22 who are saying not to be committing adultery, you are committing adultery! who are abominating idols, you are despoiling the sanctuary!
23 who are boasting in a law, through the transgression of the law you are dishonoring God!
24 For because of you the name of God is being blasphemed among the nations, according as it is written.
25 For circumcision, indeed, is benefiting if you should be putting law into practice, yet if you should be a transgressor of law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
26 If the Uncircumcision, then, should be maintaining the just requirements of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be reckoned for circumcision?
27 And the Uncircumcision who, by nature, are discharging the law's demands, shall be judging you, who through letter and circumcision, are a transgressor of law.
28 For not that which is apparent is the Jew, nor yet that which is apparent in flesh is circumcision;
29 but that which is hidden is the Jew, and circumcision is of the heart, in spirit, not in letter, whose applause is not of men, but of God.
This agrees with EVERYTHING James says, and especially how he addresses his letter. It isn't about following the LETTER of the law, Lee. It is about the righteousness OF the law fulfilled BY NATURE (by the empowerment of the Spirit) in them who are circumcised in the heart by the Spirit and are therefore ISRAEL.
Quote from: Lee Damboise on November 19, 2009, 10:33:51 PM
Rose do you believe in following all 640 penned laws of Moses??? In "the bible" ????
Hi Lee ,
they have their part Brother , and many do still follow that course of worship to God
I tend to follow the New Testament more so LOVE JESUS WORDS
the main Law Jesus spoke of here simplifies everything
in the nutshell
Master, which [is] the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37
Jesus said unto him,you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. Mat 22:38
This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39
And the second [is] like unto it, you shall love your neighbour as yourself. Mat 22:40
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. I see that as filfilling all the Law in Christ .. :HeartThrob:
IMO..... :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Seth on November 19, 2009, 10:35:24 PM
James is written to the 12 Tribes of Israel, of which WE ARE.
Romans 2
13 For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified.
14 For whenever they of the nations that have no law, BY NATURE may be doing that which the law demands, these, having no law, are a law to themselves,
15 who are displaying the action of the law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying together and their reckonings between one another, accusing or defending them,
16 in the day when God will be judging the hidden things of humanity, according to my evangel, through Jesus Christ.
17 Lo! you are being denominated a Jew, and are resting on law, and are boasting in God,
18 and know the will, and are testing what things are of consequence, being instructed out of the law.
19 Besides, you have confidence in yourself to be a guide of the blind, a light of those in darkness,
20 a discipliner of the imprudent, a teacher of minors, having the form of knowledge and the truth in the law.
21 You, then, who are teaching another, you are not teaching yourself! who are heralding not to be stealing, you are stealing!
22 who are saying not to be committing adultery, you are committing adultery! who are abominating idols, you are despoiling the sanctuary!
23 who are boasting in a law, through the transgression of the law you are dishonoring God!
24 For because of you the name of God is being blasphemed among the nations, according as it is written.
25 For circumcision, indeed, is benefiting if you should be putting law into practice, yet if you should be a transgressor of law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
26 If the Uncircumcision, then, should be maintaining the just requirements of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be reckoned for circumcision?
27 And the Uncircumcision who, by nature, are discharging the law's demands, shall be judging you, who through letter and circumcision, are a transgressor of law.
28 For not that which is apparent is the Jew, nor yet that which is apparent in flesh is circumcision;
29 but that which is hidden is the Jew, and circumcision is of the heart, in spirit, not in letter, whose applause is not of men, but of God.
This agrees with EVERYTHING James says, and especially how he addresses his letter. It isn't about following the LETTER of the law, Lee. It is about the righteousness OF the law fulfilled BY NATURE (by the empowerment of the Spirit) in them who are circumcised in the heart by the Spirit and are therefore ISRAEL.
Good stuff , Seth
you did clarify MUCH better on this :HeartThrob:
Ok then you are a Jew but I am a Frenchman and was never born of Jewish blood. so I am a Gentile, so we are different, that is ok. I don't mind.
I have always wanted to ask a Jew who do you bring your animals to now, to do your sacrifices in a temple that ain't there anymore, sense you didn't ever acknowledge The Christ ever coming, how do you wipe your sins away for the "year" now. Under your system in the present time. I know how I do it as a believer in The Christ. I just want to ask a Jew how is it done today? absolutely no offense intended, just wonder about their system
Quote from: Lee Damboise on November 19, 2009, 10:46:08 PM
I have always wanted to ask a Jew who do you bring your animals to now, to do your sacrifices in a temple that ain't there anymore, sense you didn't ever acknowledge The Christ ever coming, how do you wipe your sins away for the "year" now. Under your system in the present time. I know how I do it as a believer in The Christ. I just want to ask a Jew how is it done today? absolutely no offense intended, just wonder about their system
Do you mean a Jew according to the flesh, or that which is circumcised in the heart by the Spirit? Because it still seems that you disagree with Romans 2:28-29.
I am talking about any Jewish temple you go in to today and worship in 2009 I guess that is plain enough.
You are still thinking outwardly.
still would like an answer if you follow all 640 Law set forth for Israel of old.
so whats the issue of that end of the scale being talked about.
Quote from: Lee Damboise on November 19, 2009, 10:51:33 PM
still would like an answer if you follow all 640 Law set forth for Israel of old.
I'll answer you when you when you answer me: Do you mean a Jew according to the flesh, or that which is circumcised in the heart by the Spirit?
And, Do you agree with Romans 2:28-29 or not?
Yes I agree with Rom's, but there is still an issue of who was Paul telling a story about at that moment in Rom. for one.
and I was talking about in the flesh/carnally discerned but I can speak Spiritually too. I just want to know if you follow all the Laws of old testement and the law of the new Life in Christ Too????
What parts of the "Word" do you magnify in your brain, "retain"
Rom 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
Rom 2:2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
Rom 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law:( Who are these People???) and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Rom 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
Rom 2:18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
Rom 2:19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
Rom 2:20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
Rom 2:21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
Rom 2:22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
Rom 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
Rom 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
Rom 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
Rom 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
Rom 2:27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Now I do see that non Jews can be of the house of God as the last verse says , but the question is, do you follow the Jewish Laws all 640 of them??
Quote from: Lee Damboise on November 19, 2009, 11:01:19 PM
Yes I agree with Rom's, but there is still an issue of who was Paul telling a story about at that moment in Rom. for one.
and I was talking about in the flesh/carnally discerned but I can speak Spiritually too. I just want to know if you follow all the Laws of old testement and the law of the new Life in Christ Too????
Hi Lee ,
I do not boil a kid in its mothers milk
that was one of them laws of moses
we are getting off topic :mshock:
But there are two ways of seeing things one is literal
the other is spiritual, and when we mix up the two we get confusion ...
one Law by the carnal nature , it kills
the Spirital Law gives life
that is what we are trying to distinsuish between here
Seth is speaking of the natural man / Jew and spiritual man / Jew and how the laws apply rightly dividing the WORD of Truth .......
this Nation / Jew was chosen first by the LORD than all other nations /gentiles were given equal opportunity employment
The original Greek word is: Or in Modern-Greek:
Ergon.[16]
(
Strong's number: 2041. G/K: 2240)
Ever since Jesus ascended, we are able to perform greater works then He did! – Jn. 5:20
Works bear witness and validate Jesus' claim of relationship with God the Father – Jn. 5:36, Jn. 10:25, Jn. 14:11
We must believe in Jesus to do the work of God – Jn. 6:29
If we believe in Jesus we will do the works that He did! – Jn.14:12
Works caused people to believe Jesus – Jn. 10:38
Lexicon definition:
The Enhanced Strong's Lexicon defines this word as:
"1) business, employment, that which any one is occupied. 1A) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking. 2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind. 3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasized in opp. to that which is less than work." This easily translates into our English word 'work,' but is there a deeper meaning to this Greek word? Most of the time, ergon simply means work, just the same as our English word. There are some occurrences that are slightly different however. The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament tells us that this word was very common in the time of Homer and Hesiod. It seems in their time
ergon had a meaning that portrayed active action and zeal instead of just labor or occupation, as we in the 21st century might perceive 'work'. It also meant 'useful activity' opposed to useless busyness or idleness.[17]
Ergon is: work for a purpose, for life itself. It emphasizes actively working in expectation of return. For example, a farmer planting crop in expectation of receiving a harvest in season, would be ergon/work. The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament tells us that this Greek word originated from a Hebrew word often times meaning: 'to plow'.[18] :HeartThrob:
Are you going to still say that Rom. 2 is written to Gentiles today and he is "not talking to Jews of that day".
Quote from: LeeNow I do see that non Jews can be of the house of God as the last verse says , but the question is, do you follow the Jewish Laws all 640 of them??
Weren't those nailed to the cross?
Colossians 2:14
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
I am still waiting for Seth's reply before I go on to new issues.
But to answer/and not looking for more questions, Yes for this Gentile.
I know many many people today that find it absolutely necessary to follow all laws (640 plus their own penned laws), Baptist is one example of what I call the unenlightened followers of Moses' Laws.
Every Human has the right to believe what his mind tells them. I just want to know if Seth is a follower of both old and new testament, old law and new law.
Quote from: Lee Damboise on November 19, 2009, 11:01:19 PM
Yes I agree with Rom's, but there is still an issue of who was Paul telling a story about at that moment in Rom. for one.
and I was talking about in the flesh/carnally discerned but I can speak Spiritually too. I just want to know if you follow all the Laws of old testement and the law of the new Life in Christ Too????
If you were talking about the flesh carnally discerned, I don't apply such reasoning, which is why you asked "I am talking about any Jewish temple you go in to today and worship in 2009 I guess that is plain enough." My first thought was,
I AM the temple of God, so I don't have to go anywhere.
Your question is "do you follow the Jewish Laws all 640 of them?" My answer is "Do I make null the law by faith, no I establish law." (Romans 3:31)
Meaning in the walk of salvation, if by nature I fulfill the righteousness of the law, then I am showing the law to be written in my heart, therefore becoming a law unto myself.
In other words, not a letter follower, a law fulfiller. And the righteousness of the Law (Romans 8) is fulfilled by love.
Thank you, that was a very good answer and all worthy of acceptance in His site.
Thank you, Lee. Agree or disagree, I am glad that we came to a better understanding between us.
:hijacked: Only kidding! :laughing7:
I have some Jewish friends at uni who are self confessed "cultural Jews" they are Zionists and more geographical/racial Isrealies than Jews if the word Jew means the same as Christian, muslim, sikh (a follower of a religion).
I asked one of them if they thought of themselves as one of Abrahams children and they said that its more of a religious belief than cultural. I told them I did and they thought that was funny!!
But I thought that to be a Jew in the religious sense you had to be one of Abrahams children and that is people from all over the world, from every nation.
Seth I totally get what you mean by Jesus being Isreal and marrying Isreal, one flesh and all that.
Lee no one can follow the law, thats why Jesus came.
I always get perplexed when people start to get shirty when they disagree seeing as if any one does know the truth thats because God revealed it to them. If someone doesn't and you do, its not because you are smarter its because God has chosen not to reveal it to them yet. So if you are frustrated at someones lack of agreement with you or lack of knowledge then you are frustrated with God becuase if you are genuinly searching for answers with the right heart then its Gods job to dish out the knowledge not ours. We can express our opinions but there is no need for tones and negative emotions.
"Shirty" that's an interesting one. I never heard that before. I like it. :laughing7:
Yep shirty, another good word is mardy or noughty. :icon_jokercolor:
lol....British I suspect?
Yep! :icon_queen:
You live in one of the 10 commandments :laughing7:
:dunno: I dont get it! Hope its not a dig at our very usefu,l and in no way just a figure head, Queen!! :tease:
Quote from: Lee Damboise on November 19, 2009, 10:18:00 PM
James is % 100 percent written to followers of Law, and not to be taken for a Gentile as rules, just understanding of how God delt with His people, "then" and not to todays gentiles.
Rev. is not to us either unless your a born Jew. the whole book is written to a people and at the time it was never intended as a book for Gentiles, it is % 100 percent a book to reveal The Christ in Creation...The whole book. IMO
Lee,
I agree 100% with your post also. Seth, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. I know it is hard to see this Mystery for what it is, because it is still hidden among the epistles of paul.
CHB
I do believe I see the Mystery for what it is. I have actually been harmonizing it across all Paul's epistles and those of his brother apostles. But I have no problem agreeing to disagree.
Blessings :icon_king:
Quote from: Molly on November 19, 2009, 11:25:37 PM
Quote from: LeeNow I do see that non Jews can be of the house of God as the last verse says , but the question is, do you follow the Jewish Laws all 640 of them??
Weren't those nailed to the cross?
Colossians 2:14
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
What I understand is if we are displaying sinfullness, working in opposition to the law of God, including behavior opposite of "the handwriting of ordinances," then we are those in whom the Lord of Glory is crucified, not risen. If sin in the flesh of Adam is crucified with Christ but I walk in accordance with that nature which is condemned, then I am condemned.
What I notice is that those who do not submit to God's law and reject it's demands make up another law, and for all their protestations that it is truth by way of the Holy Spirit, it is actually the law of sin in their members.
Romans 6:14-15 (AV)...
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Yet the opposite has been expressed here, that God bless it, we are not under the law; so, homosexuality is now a gift of God. God's word against it in Hebrew and Greek Scriptures was for another people than ourselves and for another time than now. I'll cast my lot with The Holy Bible and the witness of the saints throughout the ages, not the filthy reprobate minds of so many since about 1980 who have marvelously discovered a new thing: Lo! all those verses about homosexuality in the Bible are really about something else. I find it so hard to believe people who espouse these things could possibly be sincere in believing what they say.
But why would I pick out that sin? It is true the we are discussing a larger issue, "the body of sin" and its nullification (Rm 6:6.) But when those who pretend to know what they're talking about concerning the God of the Bible approve of what God says is an abomination to Him, and, to exponentially magnify their error, attack as unenlightened bigots, even making it a criminal offence to speak of the blessed blood of Jesus shed for the sinners sin. They seek the destruction of those who offended them by revealing their vile affections against nature are called sin. That narrow burning passion which consumes their suffering personalities is justly condemned so it cannot continue for ever and they might be freed from it by union with Christ is a thought reviled as against the nation. Yeah, I'm talking about this watershed issue concerned with the freedom to worship God, to keep our Bibles rather than them being called pornographic or hate speech, or just not reliable, hence not permitted to be believed. Certainly I will speak against some strange dispensational (ie., "dipSinsational") antinomianism (against God's written law-word,) a tradition of men that makes the word of God to no effect, nullifying it rather than the body of sin. Will such thought crime hate speakers even be allowed to raise their own children in the days to come? Will they be handed over for mandatory "treatment?" Don't pretend you don't live in the same world I do!
Romans 3:9, 20-22, 28-31 (AV)...
9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
These are the two categories about which He says there is no difference in vs.22.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But
now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ
unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: This manifestation is witnessed to by the Hebrew Scriptures which are not made void, disposed of, made no longer of use, but this revealing of God establishes
nomos, or, "law," what the
torah is also called.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
29
Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Jew and Gentile are the same in sin and in justification!
Romans 6:4-13 (Concordant Literal)...
4 We, then, were entombed together with Him through baptism into death, that, even as Christ was roused from among the dead through the glory of the Father, thus we also should
be walking in newness of life.
5 For if we have become planted together in the likeness of His death, nevertheless we shall be of the resurrection also,
This being planted together with Christ is all the choices we make referring to the Rock of our foundation, rather than like grains of sand, each motive of the flesh or idea of a self-serving mind.
6
knowing this, that our old humanity was crucified together with Him, that the body of Sin may be nullified, for us by no means to be still slaving for Sin,
7 for one who dies has been justified from Sin.
This is the death of the old human nature in which the "body of sin" becomes inoperative.
8 Now if we died together with Christ, we believe that we shall be living together with Him also,
9 having perceived that Christ, being roused from among the dead, is no longer dying. Death is lording it over Him no longer,
10 for in that He died, He died to Sin once for all time, yet in that He is living, He is living to God. These words (Rm 6:8-10) describe a secret to bring us into immortal and incorruptable life.
11 Thus you also,
be reckoning yourselves to be dead, indeed, to Sin, yet living to God in Christ Jesus, our Lord.
12 Let not Sin, then, be reigning in your mortal body, for you to be obeying its lusts.
13 Nor yet be presenting your members, as implements of injustice, to Sin, but present yourselves to God as if alive from among the dead, and your members as implements of righteousness to God.