Do More People Know God Than Most People Think?

[WhiteWings]

I fully agree with your conclusion of example A and B. The A-group is the gnashing of teeth group.

Do you think your dream has a meaning? (besides God=love)

[Seth]

A. a person who believes in God, yet thinks that if he does good works, his "mansion in heaven" will be just a little bigger if he goes out and volunteers in a soup kitchen. He doesn't like doing it. It's a drag. He goes in and puts in his time, talks to people about God, etc. Tells others how he volunteers at soup kitchens, and acts all pious. All along, in his heart, he is not really doing it for the poor people that are in need, he's doing it because he thinks this will get him "more stuff" in heaven.

and

B. a person who maybe doesn't even necessarily believe in God, but sees the need of others, sees people hurting and goes in and from the love in their heart (All love is from one source: God), has mercy on these people and helps them.

Which is the filthy rags? I think it's pretty plain.

Hi Sparrow,
Here is the crux. We are talking about GENUINE faith, aren't we? Paul said that we should examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith. If that person examined himself, would he find himself in the faith? He sounds like a Pharisee. But this is not the Bride of Christ. The Bride of Christ has both genuine faith, and works that flow forth from that faith in Christ.

Romans 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.


Romans 5:1
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Can anyone show me the scripture that says we have peace with God through faith in any other "spiritual leader" than Jesus Christ? How about our own works, do they justify us without faith in Jesus Christ?


Romans 10
1Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
6But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
7Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
8But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

In MHO my answer to "which are the filthy rags?" is both.

Without faith it is impossible to please God. It doesn't matter how much WE think we are being genuine. We are not justified by any faith in anyone other than Jesus Christ.

[Seth]

This really grieves me. I will not be returning to this conversation. I cannot believe we have gotten to a point where we aren't even teaching people that belief in Christ is even essential to the Gospel anymore. This is sad. I know I am practically a lone voice in this, but I know that NO MAN is justified before God without faith in the Son who died for the world and was raised three days later.

I know as an ETer, if I would have seen that version of UR, I would have stopped reading Gary's material and stayed with my old church.

:sigh:

[sparrow]

Every knee will bow.

I think that point in my post was overlooked.
and perhaps I did not explain myself well. 


Every knee will bow.
At the name of Jesus, every knee will bow.

There are many people out there who do not KNOW Jesus... but who WILL know Jesus, either in this life or the next. Either way, EVERY knee will bow.

In my examples, I was talking about those who yell and holler about God all day long, but their hearts are far from Him. And those who do not think they know God, yet their hearts are actually close to Him. They just don't realize it. Here you have two groups of people, one professing to KNOW God, one who doesn't. Who REALLY does know more of God in these two examples?

I have never once said that belief and faith in Jesus is not essential.


But just because a person professes to have faith... doesn't actually necessarily mean that their heart is close to God. There are some people in this world who do not KNOW that they actually know God, yet when they will encounter Jesus Christ, whether in this life or the next... .they WILL recognize Him. That was my point.

God looks at the heart. His ways are above ours.

Who shows more of God's love in this world?
People like Fred Phelps?
????
Just because he talks about and says he has faith in Jesus Christ?

This isn't about salvation. I'm not talking about the gospel.
This is specifically talking about two groups of people.
and those whose heart may be closer to God's than they think.
And those whose heart is further from God's than they think.

That's really the only point I was trying to make.

Perceptions.

There are a lot of atheists out there who need to understand that the love in their heart....the source of that love is GOD! They need to make the connection first! In order to even understand CHRIST... they need to get past these people who profess to know God yet their actions speak otherwise. This is a HUGE stumbling block, in my eyes. I want people to know that the LOVE in their heart is GOD. That is what they need to understand.

That's the whole point in posting what I posted. I care about these loving people in the world who feel that they can never understand God. They look around at christianity and what do they see??
I want them to get past these stumbling blocks that people who profess to know God put in everyone's path.

This is why I'm passionate about this topic.
I'm sorry if it seemed that I was saying that faith in Jesus is not essential.
That's not at all what I was saying.  :sigh:
I'm saying faith in Jesus is essential, of course, but to get to that faith, people need to connect the love in their heart with God. They need to make that connection.
Otherwise, will they ever come to a place where they UNDERSTAND Christ?
The connection needs to be made.
The stumbling blocks need to be kicked out of the way.

[Seth]

Who shows more of God's love in this world?
People like Fred Phelps?
????
Just because he talks about and says he has faith in Jesus Christ?

I hear what you are saying Sparrow, and thank you for clarifying.

I draw a distinction between those who CLAIM faith in Christ, and those who have GENUINE faith. That is why I agreed with WW when he said that the Bride has both faith in Christ and good works. They WILL recognize Christ when they see him. And Bride is what invites all, both A and B in your example to drink from the water of life and it is that Bride that will receive all creation into their liberty.

So I agree, faith that hasn't been tried (via the Book of Peter) may be found to be lacking love and therefore dead (via James). Phelps version of faith is intellectual belief, but no walking by the Spirit. In Romans 8 Paul said that there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ who walk according to the Spirit, not those who claim faith and do not walk by the Spirit.

My disagreement is with the idea that walking by the Spirit is done by those who have no faith. What use would it be then for beautiful feet to bring Good News? No use at all. For those who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved, how will they believe if they have not heard?

The question is, what are we saying? Believe the testimony of Christ, or don't worry about believing, just keep doing good and being a good person? To me, that isn't the Gospel. I am not saying that is what you are saying. But speaking in general about this UR fad to downplay faith in Christ alone, which I do believe is occurring on this thread.

But are you saying that those who do not have faith yet but do have soft hearts, are more prepared to receive Christ than those who claim faith but have no love? I agree with that and I am sorry if I misunderstood.

[Seth]

The reason I am passionate about this issue is because I know ETers do their research (as I did) and if they come across this "many roads leading to God" stuff, they will know full well that is not scriptural, and will reject the rest of the message due to that unscriptural teaching, and be robbed of the full joy of the truth. I would have been.

The main point of the thread is do athiests who have love know God. The answer is no. That is why the feet who bring Good News are beautiful. If athiests who have love are counted by God to know him and are justified by their own works, then take the beautiful feet that being the Good News, chop them off and throw them into the Gehenna because they are useless feet.

Gary's feet were beautiful because they brought the Good News which had nothing to do with following other spiritual leaders and knowing without knowing.

[sparrow]

But are you saying that those who do not have faith yet but do have soft hearts, are more prepared to receive Christ than those who claim faith but have no love? I agree with that and I am sorry if I misunderstood.

Bingo!

And no apology necessary. I know that what I said in my previous post could have been percieved in the wrong way, I guess I was just hoping that it wouldn't. But, my fault I didn't make myself clear. It's a fine line what I am saying, and it could definitely, definitely easily be percieved in a way that was far from the intent.

Both groups of people are walking in a form of darkness.


I just have a heart for those who are hurt by religion, and religious unloving people keep daming them to hell. When in reality, SOME of those who are being hurt have more of God's love in their heart than the religious people, they just don't know it yet. They just haven't made the connection.
They don't yet realize the source of that love is GOD. These people are more prepared to receive Christ, yes.. I believe this.

I've been spending a bit of time at a forum full of very unloving fundamentalists and a few people who show real compassion, real love, real patience.... yet they are not believers. The contrast is striking. You can see God waving at you in their hearts, but they can't see Him. I think my posts reflect the feelings inside of my heart witnessing this phenomenon. I so want them to see the connection. That's all.

Oh and the "many roads to God" thing... yes I understand what you are saying.

[sparrow]

The main point of the thread is do athiests who have love know God. The answer is no. That is why the feet who bring Good News are beautiful. If athiests who have love are counted by God to know him and are justified by their own works, then take the beautiful feet that being the Good News, chop them off and throw them into the Gehenna because they are useless feet.

Gary's feet were beautiful because they brought the Good News which had nothing to do with following other spiritual leaders and knowing without knowing.

But I believe that they WILL more easily recognize Him when encountering Him.
Whereas those who believe the ET God, the vengeful, spiteful, non-loving, full of wrath god who will torment their enemies forever... will have a harder time recognizing Him when encountering Him.

So, really I think it's fair to say that in a sense, they DO know MORE ABOUT God than some religious fundamentalist, ET-believing , hateful people (like Fred phelps). They just don't realize that they know some things about God. They don't see God as loving. So they don't make the connection. But the knowledge is there in their heart, lying dormant. But they are tapping into it but still not understanding the source.

Again, this isn't about who is the bride, or having faith, or the gospel...
This is simply about what is in a person's heart.
The source of ALL love is God.
God IS IN some people's hearts yet they don't yet know that it is God.
They haven't made the connection yet.

Edited to add: This is tough to talk about on a discussion board. It just is. I really hope that I'm getting my point across in the right way. I really do think that God's plan of salvation is magnificent and everything will make sense. I can see God's plan as being just perfect.
Those who believe and have faith and have works.
Those who believe yet don't have faith.
Those who don't believe.
Those who do good works out of the love in their heart yet don't have faith.

Just God going in and burning out all the dross.... in all of us.
And all of us understanding WHO He is.
WHO Jesus is. and What Jesus came and accomplished.

I just see the plan as perfect.

Everyone in their due time.
In God's time and in God's way and nothing less.

Every knee will bow.
How every knee GETS to that point is God's will.

[WhiteWings]

[I draw a distinction between those who CLAIM faith in Christ, and those who have GENUINE faith. That is why I agreed with WW when he said that the Bride has both faith in Christ and good works.

Yes we did but we seem to disagree on Sparrows A & B example

They WILL recognize Christ when they see him. And Bride is what invites all, both A and B in your example to drink from the water of life and it is that Bride that will receive all creation into their liberty.

Perhaps the problems lays in what 'rags' actually are/means.
For me rags are on the outside. The outside has nothing to do wit faith; only with works.
That's replied A was the person with filthy rags.

[WhiteWings]

This really grieves me. I will not be returning to this conversation. I cannot believe we have gotten to a point where we aren't even teaching people that belief in Christ is even essential to the Gospel anymore.

That answer really puzzles me Seth. At least 75% of Sparrows post are loaded with love for Father?Son/HS and you draw the conclusion her opinion is that Jesus is not needed?

How could you!  :winkgrin:  :Peace: :Peace2:

[sparrow]

This really grieves me. I will not be returning to this conversation. I cannot believe we have gotten to a point where we aren't even teaching people that belief in Christ is even essential to the Gospel anymore.

That answer really puzzles me Seth. At least 75% of Sparrows post are loaded with love for Father?Son/HS and you draw the conclusion her opinion is that Jesus is not needed?

How could you!  :winkgrin:  :Peace: :Peace2:

:grin: lol.
In all fairness, I really don't think I made myself clear. I'm sure if I was saying what Seth THOUGHT I was saying... then he would definitely be grieved.
I totally understand.  :HeartThrob:

This is a tough subject.
Esp. to discuss on a forum away from in person interaction.
for sure.

[WhiteWings]

The main point of the thread is do athiests who have love know God. The answer is no.

My answer is.. not so sure.
Gonna play a bit with words to get my point across

To steal Sparrows words: God is love.
It's also written God wrote laws on hearts.
Surely atheists don't believe in God. That's the defenition of an atheist.
But we can't ignore the other two facts because of that human defenition.

The atheist knows what love is because he helped the people in Sparrows example.
God=love
The atheist knows what God is because he helped the people in Sparrows example.

As said a play with words; but hopefully a little insight how I (force?) fit the verses together.

[Paul Hazelwood]

So, I've wondered about this, and I'm honestly beginning to believe it more and more: do more people know God than we think?

John said that if we know love than we'll know God, because God IS love.

Now, I know of many people who claim they know God, but hardly love, and I know of people that don't believe in the "Christian" God, but are more loving.

So basically, do you think that there's some people, that despite their claiming not to believe in the "Christian" God or, perhaps, even claim to be atheists, actually really DO know God? Like, Ghandi, for instance? I mean, as he said: "I like Jesus, I just don't like his followers." (Or something along those lines.) This sounds like somebody who certainly knows what love is, but doesn't like the Christians' hypocrisy.

Well, this you must understand.   When you say "Christian" God, you will not get a responce from most people that will see "Christian universalism" so in effect even Christian universalists are said to "not" worship the Christian God.

When it comes down to it,  the Christian God is associated with either Eternal Hell or Anihillation.


Once you understand that and realize that the vast majority of teachings in Christianity are in error  (and that includes most anything not associated directly with hell,  even prayer)  you will then start to observe Christ in people that are not associated with the word Christian in the first place.    Then you will realize a realm beyond word association.   ;)

[Seth]

This really grieves me. I will not be returning to this conversation. I cannot believe we have gotten to a point where we aren't even teaching people that belief in Christ is even essential to the Gospel anymore.

That answer really puzzles me Seth. At least 75% of Sparrows post are loaded with love for Father?Son/HS and you draw the conclusion her opinion is that Jesus is not needed?

How could you!  :winkgrin:  :Peace: :Peace2:

LOL, no she clarified her meaning about that.

I mean this in all humor. I could say "smurfs" in 75% of a post and be saying that "smurfs" are not needed.  :laughing7:

[WhiteWings]

This really grieves me. I will not be returning to this conversation. I cannot believe we have gotten to a point where we aren't even teaching people that belief in Christ is even essential to the Gospel anymore.

That answer really puzzles me Seth. At least 75% of Sparrows post are loaded with love for Father?Son/HS and you draw the conclusion her opinion is that Jesus is not needed?

How could you!  :winkgrin:  :Peace: :Peace2:

LOL, no she clarified her meaning about that.

I mean this in all humor. I could say "smurfs" in 75% of a post and be saying that "smurfs" are not needed.  :laughing7:

I know it is clarified. Lucky you because when Sparrow gets angry she transforms into seagull with a full belly :laughing7:
Typo from me. Post=posts => all her 1000+ post on this forum.

[Paul Hazelwood]

This really grieves me. I will not be returning to this conversation. I cannot believe we have gotten to a point where we aren't even teaching people that belief in Christ is even essential to the Gospel anymore. This is sad. I know I am practically a lone voice in this, but I know that NO MAN is justified before God without faith in the Son who died for the world and was raised three days later.

I know as an ETer, if I would have seen that version of UR, I would have stopped reading Gary's material and stayed with my old church.

:sigh:

Largely it is a misunderstanding.


I believe all are saved through Christ,  but I also view  "Christ" as the spiritual nature of Godly enablement.

Christ to the vast majority of believers is a word that you must make a choice to believe in.  While it will be said that "Word" is the son of God,  it actually is about the "word" and a religious expectation and it is not spiritual at all.

So if our salvation is spiritual, why are most religious people still steeped in traditional expectations of which Jesus was killed opposing?

[Seth]

The main point of the thread is do athiests who have love know God. The answer is no.

My answer is.. not so sure.
Gonna play a bit with words to get my point across

To steal Sparrows words: God is love.
It's also written God wrote laws on hearts.
Surely atheists don't believe in God. That's the defenition of an atheist.
But we can't ignore the other two facts because of that human defenition.

The atheist knows what love is because he helped the people in Sparrows example.
God=love
The atheist knows what God is because he helped the people in Sparrows example.

As said a play with words; but hopefully a little insight how I (force?) fit the verses together.

It's an interesting play with words. But it needs to be reconciled to the scripture to see if it is consistent with the Gospel message. So when I post scriptures which clearly show that those who deny Christ also deny the Father like this: Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. 1 John 2:23

And

Romans 9:33
As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

and many more scriptures I have posted like that are the benchmark by which I will judge for myself the accuracy of your wordplay to the Gospel message.

[Seth]

This really grieves me. I will not be returning to this conversation. I cannot believe we have gotten to a point where we aren't even teaching people that belief in Christ is even essential to the Gospel anymore. This is sad. I know I am practically a lone voice in this, but I know that NO MAN is justified before God without faith in the Son who died for the world and was raised three days later.

I know as an ETer, if I would have seen that version of UR, I would have stopped reading Gary's material and stayed with my old church.

:sigh:

Largely it is a misunderstanding.


I believe all are saved through Christ,  but I also view  "Christ" as the spiritual nature of Godly enablement.

Christ to the vast majority of believers is a word that you must make a choice to believe in.  While it will be said that "Word" is the son of God,  it actually is about the "word" and a religious expectation and it is not spiritual at all.

So if our salvation is spiritual, why are most religious people still steeped in traditional expectations of which Jesus was killed opposing?

Are you talking about "traditional expectaions" like:

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Jesus never opposed that one. He proclaimed it.

[martincisneros]

So, I've wondered about this, and I'm honestly beginning to believe it more and more: do more people know God than we think?

John said that if we know love than we'll know God, because God IS love.

Now, I know of many people who claim they know God, but hardly love, and I know of people that don't believe in the "Christian" God, but are more loving.

So basically, do you think that there's some people, that despite their claiming not to believe in the "Christian" God or, perhaps, even claim to be atheists, actually really DO know God? Like, Ghandi, for instance? I mean, as he said: "I like Jesus, I just don't like his followers." (Or something along those lines.) This sounds like somebody who certainly knows what love is, but doesn't like the Christians' hypocrisy.

There are statements in the New Testament.  It says in Galatians that while you're under the weak and beggarly elements of this world, you don't know God at all.  And then there's another set of Scriptures [elsewhere] that'll say that when you know Him, you'll be just like Him, although Galatians implies the same in it's first chapter where St. Paul's being a Greek dramatist as he is at the opening of at least a couple of his other epistles with essentially making himself the Apocalypse.  John's writings are particularly stubborn 'cause he equates love not with kindness and generocity or a warm feeling or whatever, but dogmatically asserts that love is the keeping of the commandments of the Scriptures. 

What I mean by John's writings being particularly stubborn is that there aren't portions that stand alone.  You have to either know all of it, or you don't know anything about it at all.  Hence Paul's comment that if you think you know something when you don't yet, then you're an imbicile.  Paul's epistles tend to be almost as structured, and by saying what he said along those lines, he's calling attention to that, but John would have been more conscious of passing on tradition of what Christ Jesus said, so he's holding you in the moment of those memories of all He said.  And evidently, almost the whole Gospel of John and the entirety of the 3 general epistles of John all came out of that conversation and prayer time of John chapters 13 thru 17.  James tends to be the same way with that whole epistle being "Sermon on the Mount" material.  Jude's perhaps additional stuff that came out when the Pharisees were getting yelled at in Matthew 23. 

Paul was preaching that same stuff PLUS what he was getting out of meditating in the Scriptures.  Peter and Paul seem to depart from sticking with only passing on oral traditions and are more busy with grappling for the souls and life of the Church that includes Gentiles and Peter's heavily influenced by Paul's ministry.  Paul's busy with trying to be "Christ for the nations" and is doing his best to let you see what a Greek Christ would look like, hence you've got a lot of Plato's Republican liberality strongly seasoning and flavoring Paul's Gospel.  Paul's very concerned with what a global one world faith looks like and is busy with trying to be the New Moses that's writing an international "Torah," hence that's why there are sooo many remarkable discoveries made all of the time in the Greek text in Paul's epistles on par with Torah codes.  He's very deliberately working on a systematic symmetry. 

An attempt at a symmetry while maintaining the flavor of an Oriental Master (i.e. Mr. Miyagi) is very pronounced in all of their writings.  They're all wanting to be another Lao Tzu, or taking a stab at being the Hindu warring Krishna (cf. 2Corinthians 10 w/Gita 4:4). They're trying to reunify East with West under the headship of the absolutely supreme Christ Jesus who in their view is the new Alexander the Great that's Conquered the whole world at 33yrs old and are very consciously doing so in their day with an Oriental "Mandate of Heaven" as His Ambassadors.  So, you have to be careful with not isolating statements of their diplomacy with their greater overall theme of commanding the unconditional surrender of every thought, word, and action to Him.  Lord Jesus was raised from the dead and after being spit out of Hell like Jonah was from beneath the waves, they've assumed His charred garments as their own and are commanding the repentance of every city that they're viewing as Ninevah.

Paul's having fun in his ministry with deliberately trying to show you what a redeemed Plato would look like.  There is an elegance to his epistles that you really only just begin to appreciate in that Rennaisance Master as you're reading one of his epistles over and over and over again aloud for hours.  That dude must have been writing a sentence or two every few hours out of what would come to him thru praying in other tongues, as impossible as that might sound to accept when it comes to what the writing materials were like back then, the violence that filled Paul's life, etc.  But I really feel like his epistles are part "Commonplace book."

There are many wonderful, really wonderful sweet people in the world, but I have to come back to what Lord Jesus said about Himself: "I am the way, the truth, and the light. No man comes to the Father but by me."  The same John that spoke of those that love are knowing God, that contextually you've got to hunt for the meaning of that 'til you find that he's talking about those that keep the Scriptures as first priority and final authority.  He's the same John that called not abiding in the Scriptures a transgression in 2John 1:9 - 11: "Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God.  He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not recieve him into your house nor greet him; for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds."

And you've got to be careful with not oversimplifying John's statement by St. Paul's New Age belief about the Christ within, because John either had very little of that revelation or was coming at it from an entirely different angle from within Jewish tradition.  He's approaching the teachings of Lord Jesus, Rabbinically, and viewing Lord Jesus as the New Moses that puts us on a different/greater mountaintop that's passed on to us a new living tradition of Words from God, and if you don't abide in what Lord Jesus SPECIFICALLY said while He was among us, then you don't have God.  Love for him is communal and he's very conscious of a community of emerging Christs that are all saying the same things as Lord Jesus.  To him, this is love and it's abiding with the Father and the Son, if you do what He's ALREADY said and passed on to us of what He received from the Father. 

St. Paul's more the Joshua/Caleb spirit than the Apostles that were before him in making it practical for the nations in saying that because we're doing THIS, it necessarily and emphatically means THAT, particularly factoring in that FOR US Adam's sin NEVER HAPPENED, not because it never did, but because he's viewing Christians as extraterrestrially, as the Melchezedecs that come out of seemingly nowhere with the Bread and Wine to the Abrahams that represent the nations and is blessing them to be the Kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ.  Doesn't mean that all are already saved in the least.  Means that we're saved and that we're saving them by taking the Gospel to them and commanding their unconditional surrender to the risen Lord Jesus Christ. 

We are His Ambassadors PLEADING for them to reconcile themselves to God, according to 2Corinthians 5, because according to Romans 10, if you confess His Lordship believing that God raised Him from the dead, then you will be saved.  For with the heart man believes unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation because whosoever will call upon the Name of the Lord shall be saved.  And then he gets into his rhetorical monologue that's absolutely pointless if all are already saved about how shall they hear without a preacher and how shall they preach unless they are Sent?

[WhiteWings]

The main point of the thread is do athiests who have love know God. The answer is no.

My answer is.. not so sure.
Gonna play a bit with words to get my point across

To steal Sparrows words: God is love.
It's also written God wrote laws on hearts.
Surely atheists don't believe in God. That's the defenition of an atheist.
But we can't ignore the other two facts because of that human defenition.

The atheist knows what love is because he helped the people in Sparrows example.
God=love
The atheist knows what God is because he helped the people in Sparrows example.

As said a play with words; but hopefully a little insight how I (force?) fit the verses together.

It's an interesting play with words. But it needs to be reconciled to the scripture to see if it is consistent with the Gospel message. So when I post scriptures which clearly show that those who deny Christ also deny the Father like this: Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. 1 John 2:23

And

Romans 9:33
As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

and many more scriptures I have posted like that are the benchmark by which I will judge for myself the accuracy of your wordplay to the Gospel message.

I think I have to add that good works are not a substitute for faith. I still stand by what I wrote earlier faith+works.
I'm a bit stuck at explaining. But I give it another try.
The laws written on your heart come from God.
Faith is inside your Spirit.
Both come from God.
But both have to be unlocked so to speak.
Faith need to grow and hearts need to be defrosted.

So I'm in no way (on purpose) ignoring 1 John 2:23 and Romans 9:33.
No I'm trying to align it with the verses where those with bad works (you didn't feed me when I was hungry etc) are judged.

I truely believe the Bible teaches both. But I have some trouble with 1 John 2:23.
Say a person is plain bad toward every human but believes very very sincerly.
How can that person 'have the Father' and still being 'punished' for teh lack of works.
I just believe the Bible teaches that Father does not accept selfish believers......

/EDIT added "does not"

[Paul Hazelwood]

This really grieves me. I will not be returning to this conversation. I cannot believe we have gotten to a point where we aren't even teaching people that belief in Christ is even essential to the Gospel anymore. This is sad. I know I am practically a lone voice in this, but I know that NO MAN is justified before God without faith in the Son who died for the world and was raised three days later.

I know as an ETer, if I would have seen that version of UR, I would have stopped reading Gary's material and stayed with my old church.

:sigh:

Largely it is a misunderstanding.


I believe all are saved through Christ,  but I also view  "Christ" as the spiritual nature of Godly enablement.

Christ to the vast majority of believers is a word that you must make a choice to believe in.  While it will be said that "Word" is the son of God,  it actually is about the "word" and a religious expectation and it is not spiritual at all.

So if our salvation is spiritual, why are most religious people still steeped in traditional expectations of which Jesus was killed opposing?

Are you talking about "traditional expectaions" like:

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Jesus never opposed that one. He proclaimed it.

Of what manner did Helen Keller know God before she could even begin to communicate?  What verse in the bible was quoted to her in order for her to understand God?   She knew something before words were even known to her.

If you can understand that, you will be on your way to knowing what spirituality means.

[Seth]

I truely believe the Bible teaches both. But I have some trouble with 1 John 2:23.
Say a person is plain bad toward every human but believes very very sincerly.
How can that person 'have the Father' and still being 'punished' for teh lack of works.
I just believe the Bible teaches that Father accepts selfish believers......

What if you throw in James: without works, faith is dead. If a person is plain bad toward every human, but believes, does he believe sincerely? Or does he have dead faith? It is a sincere dead faith? Interesting questions.

Yet, James does say that faith alone does not save without works. So to reconcile with Paul: they are not speaking about "false bretheren" which Paul said he was beset with. They are talking about a faith by which obedience is both not an option and not separate.

As Jesus said: Why do you call me Lord, Lord and do not do what I say.

[Seth]

Of what manner did Helen Keller know God before she could even begin to communicate?  What verse in the bible was quoted to her in order for her to understand God?   She knew something before words were even known to her.

If you can understand that, you will be on your way to knowing what spirituality means.

Thanks, Paul. I'll stick with the scripture.  :thumbsup:

[WhiteWings]

I truely believe the Bible teaches both. But I have some trouble with 1 John 2:23.
Say a person is plain bad toward every human but believes very very sincerly.
How can that person 'have the Father' and still being 'punished' for the lack of works.
I just believe the Bible teaches that Father does not accept selfish believers......

I added "does not". Perhaps obvious but to avoid misunderstanding I mention it.

What if you throw in James: without works, faith is dead. If a person is plain bad toward every human, but believes, does he believe sincerely? Or does he have dead faith? It is a sincere dead faith? Interesting questions.

That loops back to an earlier message where I stated the true Saint has faith and good works.
Seems to align perfectly with the verse you quoted.

Yet, James does say that faith alone does not save without works. So to reconcile with Paul: they are not speaking about "false bretheren" which Paul said he was beset with. They are talking about a faith by which obedience is both not an option and not separate.

As Jesus said: Why do you call me Lord, Lord and do not do what I say.

Again we agree.
But I still have problems with the statement that who knows Jesus has the Father because such people can have bad works. But perhaps I have a 'way out'

If someone does bad works s/he has not found Jesus. Does not truely believe in Jesus. Perhaps the person thinks s/he found Jesus but that not true. The person still is veiled. Or not truely saved as some call it.
It's a back and white package deal.
It may sound odd but perhaps the atheist in Sparrows example is just as close or even closer to God than the wannabe believer.
The believer has no believe and no works to be proud of. The atheist at least has good works to show for.
Of course I'm in no way trying to say teh Bible even in the slightest way promotes atheism...

[Paul Hazelwood]

Of what manner did Helen Keller know God before she could even begin to communicate?  What verse in the bible was quoted to her in order for her to understand God?   She knew something before words were even known to her.

If you can understand that, you will be on your way to knowing what spirituality means.

Thanks, Paul. I'll stick with the scripture.  :thumbsup:

Well, Helen Keller knew God before she even knew what scripture was in our sighted and hearing perspective,  so what about that?