So, I've wondered about this, and I'm honestly beginning to believe it more and more: do more people know God than we think?
John said that if we know love than we'll know God, because God IS love.
Now, I know of many people who claim they know God, but hardly love, and I know of people that don't believe in the "Christian" God, but are more loving.
So basically, do you think that there's some people, that despite their claiming not to believe in the "Christian" God or, perhaps, even claim to be atheists, actually really DO know God? Like, Ghandi, for instance? I mean, as he said: "I like Jesus, I just don't like his followers." (Or something along those lines.) This sounds like somebody who certainly knows what love is, but doesn't like the Christians' hypocrisy.
Quote from: Tim B on October 13, 2009, 06:31:45 AM
So, I've wondered about this, and I'm honestly beginning to believe it more and more: do more people know God than we think?
John said that if we know love than we'll know God, because God IS love.
Now, I know of many people who claim they know God, but hardly love, and I know of people that don't believe in the "Christian" God, but are more loving.
So basically, do you think that there's some people, that despite their claiming not to believe in the "Christian" God or, perhaps, even claim to be atheists, actually really DO know God? Like, Ghandi, for instance? I mean, as he said: "I like Jesus, I just don't like his followers." (Or something along those lines.) This sounds like somebody who certainly knows what love is, but doesn't like the Christians' hypocrisy.
YES! God sees the heart.
And all knees will bow.
Jesus is the gate... everyone will walk through.
But some will recognize Him more than others, and those who do will not all be "christians".
There will be many "christians" who won't recognize Jesus, if you ask me.
Because their image of god is not the true image.
God is love.
Thankfully... all will come to the knowledge of the Lord...
each in his own way.
We are all brothers and sisters.
I agree Tim B, it is a bit puzzling regarding folks like Ghandi and others, the good they seem to do, and at least the appearance of love in their hearts...also, that often we as believers (writer raises hand) certainly don't have nor show the kind of love we need to have and show. And blessings to you sparrow for saying "And all knees will bow. Jesus is the gate... everyone will walk through." The love in your heart comes through as usual.
I came across a thread tonight from which I copied and pasted some thoughts from one of our dear brothers, John (Kratos) now gone on to be with the Lord. Maybe folks will agree, maybe you'll see some things at least s/w differently, but maybe his thoughts will help someone. God's blessing, James.
"Does anyone still believe that people must be born again through faith in Jesus Christ to be a partaker of His Spirit? All I have to go by if I am not going to exalt my judgments over God's is the Bible and my own life experiences. I was TOTALLY changed from the day before I bowed my knee to Christ and the day after I was saved. With the heart I believed unto righteousness and with my mouth I confessed unto salvation.
I had human love prior to that day and I had religion prior to that day. But, that day and ever since I had the Love of God shed abroad in my heart by the Holy Spirit and the difference was night and day to me.
Rom 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
Those who hear the message of UR the first time always ask "Why get saved then if all will eventually be saved anyway"? I always answer because I want all people to experience a relationship with God through Jesus Christ and I want all to know the Love of God which passes all understanding like I have.
I love my Buddhist and Muslim and Hindu neighbors as myself and want them to not be outside the covenants of God and without hope and without God in the world as I was before I received Christ by faith. He is the only door to knowing God and knowing the Love of God. I will have to stick with the Bible and my own life experiences on this one. I believe that we must respect all peoples regardless of their beliefs, but telling people that all beliefs allow people to know God and know God's Love is not loving them because it leaves them without God as we all were before we knew Jesus.
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
My concern is that UR has become another move where we sit on our ivory couches at ease in Zion sharing our heavy revies back and forth, but are no longer grieved for those who are still outside of the covenant of God and without hope and without God in the world. In fact, some would have us believe that Paul was mistaken and no one is outside of the covenants of God and without God in this world. These are God's own words to me, but maybe not to you. I understand that. But to me God is the one who said that we were without hope and without God when we were in the world. So, this is the status of those who have not received Christ...
Peace,
John"
I've actually had similar thoughts - although, I'm not sure if it's so much that more people know God as much as it's that a different set of people know God than people think. I imagine that this may sound strange to most, but I've actually wondered for quite a while what it really means to believe in Jesus, as in verses such as John 3:16. I know that there's the obvious literal interpretation of it, but to be honest that has always troubled me and left me unsatisfied, for the simple reason that it seems incongruent to certain other things we are told in the Bible.
For example, when asked what the greatest commandments is, Jesus replies that it is to love God and love your neighbor as yourself. And Matthew 25:31-46 has always suggested to me that it is the case that we are to love God precisely by loving our neighbor - in other words, that the two commandments are the same thing. Where, then, does literal belief in Jesus come into play?
Or, as another example, we are told in 1 John 4:7 that "everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God." Again, there's nothing in here about literal belief in Jesus; it's all about love.
Even more interesting, as well, is the seeming repetition in these three verses:
'If we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us." (1 John 4:12)
"If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God." (1 John 4:15)
"Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him." (1 John 4:16)
The similarities here would almost indicate that these statements, all of which have the same result at the end, are in fact talking about identical things.
Further muddying the waters for me, so to speak, is the Greek word pisteuo, which when applied to a known figure such as Jesus refers not to factual belief, but rather belief one might hold in one's spiritual leader - trust and confidence in that person, in other words.
All of this comes together to give me a very strange idea, but which seems to fit the more I think about it: what if it is the case that believing in Jesus actually is equivalent to living in love? That is to say, what if the "belief" in Jesus spoken of is actually the belief one may hold deep in one's heart that the attitude and frame of mind advocated by Jesus is the one in which one ought to live, and therefore is an emotional belief in Jesus rather than a factual one?
I have often wondered to myself who is more a Christian: one who fervently believes that Jesus is the son of God but who treats anyone who believes differently with disdain, arrogance, and contempt, or one who does not know if Jesus is the son of God, but who believes strongly that his instructions ought to be followed? What is a Christian: is it one who knows vast expanses of scripture by heart, or is it one who has been touched by the love of God - whether they know it or not - and in whose heart the love of God thus dwells? After all, we are told that to love is to know God, and that we love because God first loved us. How, then, can it be claimed that one who loves does not know God? And how can it be claimed that God does not live in them and that they are not born of God, when we are clearly told that that is the case for all who love?
I don't claim to be an expert in theology, nor do I claim to know the scriptures in and out - but I do know that the above sits orders of magnitude better with me than any other explanation I've heard.
And then there's this :bigGrin::
"that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;" Romans 10:9
Quote from: Gab on October 13, 2009, 09:59:06 AM
Or, as another example, we are told in 1 John 4:7 that "everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God." Again, there's nothing in here about literal belief in Jesus; it's all about love.
Even more interesting, as well, is the seeming repetition in these two verses:
'If we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us." (1 John 4:12)
"If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God." (1 John 4:15)
"Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him." (1 John 4:16)
The similarities here would almost indicate that these statements, all of which have the same result at the end, are in fact talking about identical things.
Hi Gab. I tend to see the 'love' verses quoted above as sort of "proof texts", i.e., true love in our heart
shows/indicates there's been a renewal through new birth/belief on Jesus as Savior; an
evidence of, rather than having love
brings that new birth. My :2c:.
Maybe I'm old-fashioned, and I hope I don't go the way of the dinosaur, but I still believe in gettin' saved :bigGrin:.
All by His mercy and grace :thumbsup:.
Quote from: jabcat on October 13, 2009, 10:17:01 AM
Hi Gab. I tend to see the 'love' verses quoted above as sort of "proof texts", i.e., true love in our heart shows/indicates there's been a renewal through new birth/belief on Jesus as Savior; an evidence of, rather than having love brings that new birth. My :2c:.
Yes, I've heard that take on it before, but the problem I've had with that explanation is that it implicitly flips the order of wording in 1 John 4. The passage doesn't say that "everyone who has been born of God and knows God loves"; it says the reverse of that. And I think than this is a key point, really - were it the case that love is merely an indicator of knowledge of God, rather than that love leads to the knowledge of God, one would expect the order to be as above. As it stands, it says that
everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. And that's the big stumbling block between me and the acceptance of the standard focus typically given to the factual belief in who Jesus was. The only way I could see, then, to claim that only Christians know God and are born of God is to claim that Christians are the only ones who love. And this is just plainly not the case, just from my own personal anecdotal evidence.
I'm not saying that I don't believe in getting saved, so to speak - I just question what it truly is that brings that salvation. Both my brain and my heart are telling me that it isn't what most assume it to be, and I find it difficult to shut them up. :laughing7:
I understand what you're saying about "flipping the order of the verses". I don't know if a Greek Interlinear look would change anything about the order of the words or not. I'd guess not.
I thought about that too, however, what I think about next then, and what makes that approach fit from my perspective, is more of a contextual/attempting to reconcile the whole of scripture thing (which seems what you're probably doing as well, probably just from a different angle). So for me, there are too many explicit scriptures that indicate specifically being called, chosen, elected in this lifetime (though I do believe ALL will eventually be saved); and as I understand, that involves a specific calling on the name of Jesus/active belief upon Jesus as the crucified and risen Savior and Son of God. I believe the scriptures are there. So as I believe all scripture is reconciled and it's just a matter of my being able to see it clearly or not, then I can't do away with all those specific passages about a direct, active faith unto salvation - based on the Name and the blood - though I do believe it's a faith given by God, to whom, and when He sees fit and serves His purposes and plans. Some now and all later. And all by His grace and mercy. We're saved by grace through faith, and not of ourselves lest any man should boast.
Good talkin' with you. Carry on. James.
I understand what you're saying, but still, there's a certain thing to what you're saying that doesn't quite click to me. I know it speaks of being saved through faith and such - but, again, this raises the question of "what faith"? As has been noted elsewhere, the Bible, properly translated, speaks of "faith of Jesus", not "faith in Jesus" - very similar to (and perhaps even speaking of the same thing as) the notion that we love because God first loved us.
I think the reason why I think this matters is because this issue centers in some respects around the notion of what one ought to focus on when out in the world speaking to people. The people I see spreading the Good News typically focus on the belief that Jesus is Lord and the Son of God first and foremost. Yet, I sometimes wonder if this is the right approach. I've found people generally tend to balk heavily at the factual portions of Jesus' story - the virgin birth, the ascension into heaven, and so on - but when I instead start talking about love for all, I always feel that they then start to "get it", so to speak, in the sense that they feel they could really sign on to that sort of thing. And that makes me wonder, if indeed the two most important commandments of all both are fundamentally about love, whether or not even some of Jesus' most devout followers have in some sense missed what it's all really about. 1 Corinthians 13 tells us, after all, that love is even greater than faith.
That's an interesting topic.
I know Atheists with no hope in an after life, or ultimate justice or anything like that who are better people than many Christians by their fruits, who do good only from the love of their own hearts, and I would rather have them as my friend anyday.
I also know of 'Christians' (I use the term broadly), who only like other people if they are Christians. (In fact they claim to LOVE others who are Christians, but the moment that person that they love strays from the faith) they HATE them lol.
As we think this through, there's just one more verse I'd like to add:
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. John 14:6
Quote from: jabcat on October 14, 2009, 12:44:38 AM
As we think this through, there's just one more verse I'd like to add:
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. John 14:6
Hi James,
If you don't know "the name" of the fireman who ran into your burning home and dragged you out it, saving your life, does that mean that he didn't or wasn't the one who saved you? :gwink:
Truly, if we are to believe the scriptures, then Jesus Christ IS the way, the truth and the life and it ONLY THROUGH HIM that men are saved, but Jesus saved us while we were yet sinners (before we ever even knew Him or His name) did He not? :girlheart:
Nice thoughts Gab. Lots to think about for sure. :thumbsup:
It seems to me that if it is "the doers" of the law who are "justified" and we can do "by nature" the things contained in the law (judged without the law and becoming a law unto ourselves) then there just might be more to it then just knowing and professing "the name" of Jesus Christ??
I also see it as the faith OF Jesus Christ that saves us - as it is HE who is "the author and finisher of it" (making it HIS FAITH that we are to walk in and not just "our own").
I actually have a great deal of respect for those who refuse to trust is the "god" that is presented to them through traditional Christian theology - whether that be due to just plain old "common sense" or "the love of God" being made manifest in their hearts.
Bottom line is still that it is "by their fruits" that we shall know them and there are plenty of those who profess the name of Jesus who show no or very little fruit of the spirit and there are some who "deny Him" (at least as an outward confession of faith) who exhibit that which we are told is "the fruit of the spirit". So not just a black/white issue, I don't guess.
Quote from: jabcat on October 14, 2009, 12:44:38 AM
As we think this through, there's just one more verse I'd like to add:
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. John 14:6
Yes, I know of that verse, but I sometimes wonder: is that describing what someone must
do to come to the Father, or rather simply
how someone comes to the Father when they do? That verse tells me that Jesus opened the way to life, but I personally am unsure whether it's intended as an implicit command or simply a statement of fact. Jesus states that verse you quote in response to Thomas' question of "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" (John 14:5), and he later states that, "Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him." (John 14:21)
If indeed it is the case that whoever does what Jesus has commanded (as we are told) is one who loves Jesus, and will be loved by the Father, by Jesus, and that Jesus will show himself to that person, then it seems to me that this would at least appear to corroborate the interpretation of 1 John 4 as saying that love leads to knowledge of God rather than solely the other way around. After all, what did Jesus command that did not have its roots in love?
Like I said, though, I'm not an expert - just makin' observations.
Quote from: Chris on October 15, 2009, 03:08:16 AM
Nice thoughts Gab. Lots to think about for sure. :thumbsup:
It seems to me that if it is "the doers" of the law who are "justified" and we can do "by nature" the things contained in the law (judged without the law and becoming a law unto ourselves) then there just might be more to it then just knowing and professing "the name" of Jesus Christ??
I also see it as the faith OF Jesus Christ that saves us - as it is HE who is "the author and finisher of it" (making it HIS FAITH that we are to walk in and not just "our own").
I actually have a great deal of respect for those who refuse to trust is the "god" that is presented to them through traditional Christian theology - whether that be due to just plain old "common sense" or "the love of God" being made manifest in their hearts.
Bottom line is still that it is "by their fruits" that we shall know them and there are plenty of those who profess the name of Jesus who show no or very little fruit of the spirit and there are some who "deny Him" (at least as an outward confession of faith) who exhibit that which we are told is "the fruit of the spirit". So not just a black/white issue, I don't guess.
Yes, that's kind of what I'm saying - is the knowledge of God associated with love intellectual knowledge or emotional knowledge? The more I read, the more I feel that it's the latter - that it's not so much a matter of intellectually saying to oneself, "Yes, Jesus is Lord and the Son of God; I know that," but instead is a matter of feeling and embracing deep in one's heart the love that we are told that is none other than God.
It's kind of in this way that I feel that the statement that "God is love" says much more than some give it credit - there are many who say in response to that, "Well, yes, God is love, but he is also just," but I feel that this is missing an entire segment of the message. God is not justice; the only nouns that he is literally equated to are "spirit" and "love" (there are others in the Old Testament like "rock" and "fire", but these are clearly intended as metaphors since God is not physical). As a result, I firmly believe that those are, in effect, not merely describing God but also describing the way in which we experience God on Earth - in other words, when we experience love, we are experiencing God. And it's in this way that I feel that people may know God without even knowing that they know God - "Oh, that love I felt on Earth, that was YOU! I never knew!" :laughing7:
Quote from: Chris on October 15, 2009, 02:55:14 AM
Quote from: jabcat on October 14, 2009, 12:44:38 AM
As we think this through, there's just one more verse I'd like to add:
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. John 14:6
Hi James,
If you don't know "the name" of the fireman who ran into your burning home and dragged you out it, saving your life, does that mean that he didn't or wasn't the one who saved you? :gwink:
Truly, if we are to believe the scriptures, then Jesus Christ IS the way, the truth and the life and it ONLY THROUGH HIM that men are saved, but Jesus saved us while we were yet sinners (before we ever even knew Him or His name) did He not? :girlheart:
Hi Chris and Gab. The scripture is that Jesus DIED for us while we were yet sinners. Taking together, and attempting to reconcile various scriptures, I believe there still must be a specific, individual moment for each, when God gives the faith to actively believe on Jesus as Savior. Like I said earlier, I may be old fashioned, but I still believe in getting saved. In fact, I'll still call it being born again. Some now, the rest later. IMO, that's where the "especially of those believing" comes in. Take care, James.
Quote from: jabcat on October 15, 2009, 05:03:36 AM
Hi Chris and Gab. The scripture is that Jesus DIED for us while we were yet sinners. Taking together, and attempting to reconcile various scriptures, I believe there still must be a specific, individual moment for each, when God gives the faith to actively believe on Jesus as Savior. Like I said earlier, I may be old fashioned, but I still believe in getting saved. In fact, I'll still call it being born again. Some now, the rest later. IMO, that's where the "especially of those believing" comes in. Take care, James.
Well, I actually completely agree that each human who turns from his or her life of sin is born again. Unlike some Christian terminology, that term is even actually right in the Bible itself:
"I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is
born again (
gennethe anothen, may-be-being-created/begotten from-above/anew)." (John 3:3)
But then this brings us back to 1 John 4 again -
"Everyone who loves has been
born of God (
ek tou theon gegennetai, out of God has-been-created/begotten) and knows God." (1 John 4:7)
So even on the subject of being born again, we're basically back to where we started: does love come from being born again, or does love bring one to be born again? In other words, does one accept Jesus and then begin to love, or is it through the love that one feels that one is able to accept Jesus (emotionally, even if not intellectually)? As I said before, given that I know from personal experience that born-again Christians are not the only ones capable of love, I tend to thus tilt more towards the latter interpretation than the former.
Acts 17:22And Paul, having stood in the midst of the Areopagus, said, `Men, Athenians, in all things I perceive you as over-religious;
23for passing through and contemplating your objects of worship, I found also an erection on which had been inscribed: To God -- unknown; whom, therefore -- not knowing -- ye do worship, this One I announce to you.
24`God, who did make the world, and all things in it, this One, of heaven and of earth being Lord, in temples made with hands doth not dwell,
25neither by the hands of men is He served -- needing anything, He giving to all life, and breath, and all things;
26He made also of one blood every nation of men, to dwell upon all the face of the earth -- having ordained times before appointed, and the bounds of their dwellings --
27to seek the Lord, if perhaps they did feel after Him and find, -- though, indeed, He is not far from each one of us,
28for in Him we live, and move, and are; as also certain of your poets have said: For of Him also we are offspring.
29`Being, therefore, offspring of God, we ought not to think the Godhead to be like to gold, or silver, or stone, graving of art and device of man;
30the times, indeed, therefore, of the ignorance God having overlooked, doth now command all men everywhere to reform,
31because He did set a day in which He is about to judge the world in righteousness, by a man whom He did ordain, having given assurance to all, having raised him out of the dead.'
Could I trouble you for some commentary on that? I'm not sure I quite understand what you're intending to say, and I'd prefer not to risk assuming an incorrect meaning.
Quote from: Gab on October 15, 2009, 05:44:45 AM
So even on the subject of being born again, we're basically back to where we started: does love come from being born again, or does love bring one to be born again? In other words, does one accept Jesus and then begin to love, or is it through the love that one feels that one is able to accept Jesus (emotionally, even if not intellectually)? As I said before, given that I know from personal experience that born-again Christians are not the only ones capable of love, I tend to thus tilt more towards the latter interpretation than the former.
I too think the latter for sure because I read that we love Him because He first loves/loved us. It's God (God's love) that frees us and what is being saved but being set free?
cp
Quote from: Gab on October 13, 2009, 09:59:06 AM
I've actually had similar thoughts - although, I'm not sure if it's so much that more people know God as much as it's that a different set of people know God than people think. I imagine that this may sound strange to most, but I've actually wondered for quite a while what it really means to believe in Jesus, as in verses such as John 3:16. I know that there's the obvious literal interpretation of it, but to be honest that has always troubled me and left me unsatisfied, for the simple reason that it seems incongruent to certain other things we are told in the Bible.
For example, when asked what the greatest commandments is, Jesus replies that it is to love God and love your neighbor as yourself. And Matthew 25:31-46 has always suggested to me that it is the case that we are to love God precisely by loving our neighbor - in other words, that the two commandments are the same thing. Where, then, does literal belief in Jesus come into play?
Or, as another example, we are told in 1 John 4:7 that "everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God." Again, there's nothing in here about literal belief in Jesus; it's all about love.
Even more interesting, as well, is the seeming repetition in these three verses:
'If we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us." (1 John 4:12)
"If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God." (1 John 4:15)
"Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him." (1 John 4:16)
The similarities here would almost indicate that these statements, all of which have the same result at the end, are in fact talking about identical things.
Further muddying the waters for me, so to speak, is the Greek word pisteuo, which when applied to a known figure such as Jesus refers not to factual belief, but rather belief one might hold in one's spiritual leader - trust and confidence in that person, in other words.
All of this comes together to give me a very strange idea, but which seems to fit the more I think about it: what if it is the case that believing in Jesus actually is equivalent to living in love? That is to say, what if the "belief" in Jesus spoken of is actually the belief one may hold deep in one's heart that the attitude and frame of mind advocated by Jesus is the one in which one ought to live, and therefore is an emotional belief in Jesus rather than a factual one?
I have often wondered to myself who is more a Christian: one who fervently believes that Jesus is the son of God but who treats anyone who believes differently with disdain, arrogance, and contempt, or one who does not know if Jesus is the son of God, but who believes strongly that his instructions ought to be followed? What is a Christian: is it one who knows vast expanses of scripture by heart, or is it one who has been touched by the love of God - whether they know it or not - and in whose heart the love of God thus dwells? After all, we are told that to love is to know God, and that we love because God first loved us. How, then, can it be claimed that one who loves does not know God? And how can it be claimed that God does not live in them and that they are not born of God, when we are clearly told that that is the case for all who love?
I don't claim to be an expert in theology, nor do I claim to know the scriptures in and out - but I do know that the above sits orders of magnitude better with me than any other explanation I've heard.
Beautiful, Gab! :thumbsup:
.
Quote from: jabcat on October 15, 2009, 11:03:12 AM
Acts 17:22And Paul, having stood in the midst of the Areopagus, said, `Men, Athenians, in all things I perceive you as over-religious;
23for passing through and contemplating your objects of worship, I found also an erection on which had been inscribed: To God -- unknown; whom, therefore -- not knowing -- ye do worship, this One I announce to you.
24`God, who did make the world, and all things in it, this One, of heaven and of earth being Lord, in temples made with hands doth not dwell,
25neither by the hands of men is He served -- needing anything, He giving to all life, and breath, and all things;
26He made also of one blood every nation of men, to dwell upon all the face of the earth -- having ordained times before appointed, and the bounds of their dwellings --
27to seek the Lord, if perhaps they did feel after Him and find, -- though, indeed, He is not far from each one of us,
28for in Him we live, and move, and are; as also certain of your poets have said: For of Him also we are offspring.
29`Being, therefore, offspring of God, we ought not to think the Godhead to be like to gold, or silver, or stone, graving of art and device of man;
30the times, indeed, therefore, of the ignorance God having overlooked, doth now command all men everywhere to reform,
31because He did set a day in which He is about to judge the world in righteousness, by a man whom He did ordain, having given assurance to all, having raised him out of the dead.'
Quote from: Gab on October 15, 2009, 11:27:04 AM
Could I trouble you for some commentary on that? I'm not sure I quite understand what you're intending to say, and I'd prefer not to risk assuming an incorrect meaning.
Hi Gab. No big trouble :bigGrin:. I almost ALWAYS comment on any passage I post. I actually struggled with the Lord about this one, wanting to add my 2 cents, but felt strongly restrained from doing so. He impressed upon me that HE would have commentary/bring fruit from it, even if later on. This time I'm going to let the scripture stand on its own merit. Thanks, James
Jesus has and does introduce himself to us - by name :bigGrin:.
for "whoever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved." How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? Romans 10:12,13
'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me. Rev. 3:20
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=7000.msg79580#msg79580
The Spirit of God will always know the Spirit of God.
When Jesus ascended, He sent His Spirit into the heart of the earth.
Now, he says, OUT of YOUR "belly" shall flow..............
So it is already there, just have to get thru that veil of unbelief to
get it "flowing."
That the the breaking of the first veil, mentioned in Hebrews 9:1
The earthly sancturary manifesting the unseen Spirit .......
Then..........the Lord works with us to pierce the veil of the INNER
MAn, this is the part Paul said of which I cannot NOW speak
particular.......but Jesus has INVITED us to that realm, in order
to find what is "hidden" behind that Spirit Man, more faith is required
but just read Hebrews 9......all the way thru to us being told to
therefore come boldly .......because the work has been done by
the Spirit, and we are invited to come to where Jesus ascended
where out forerunner hath entered. This is a heavenly unseen realm.
Sort of like the church realm and the Kingdom realm.
This was sent into the earth.
Deep in the heart of man.
The enemy lies and says it's not so, but Jesus says it is. It will be
quickened to individuals, the word of God is a light unto the path
of any individuals......the timing of these events in one's life.....but
it does require the rayma word to cause the manifestation of what
is positionally true and settled forever in the mind of God.
Hope that is clear..........
Just a question. Do works come from faith, or are works good enough to cover unbelief? Does God consider the faithless to be faithful if they have works?
In other words is OUR OWN love and OUR OWN works of love good enough to cover the sin of unbelief?
So much for righteous by faith. I guess under this system we would not need to tell anyone about Christ. They already believe if we perceive them to be loving enough right, even if they never heard?
Romans 10:13-15
for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"
This becomes a moot scripture if their own love and their own good works can substitute for "the hearing of faith."
Galatians 3:5
He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Yet another moot scripture.
1 John 5:10
He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
So those who do hear the message and reject it, do NOT make God a liar? And those who have their own love and their own works still has the witness in himself that Jesus is the Son of God, so that they believe without believing?
Good works does not make faith.
Faith does make good works.
I think the true sign of a saint is that the person believes and does good works.
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 18, 2009, 11:46:53 PM
Good works does not make faith.
Faith does make good works.
I think the true sign of a saint is that the person believes and does good works.
That's as clear as a diamond. :thumbsup:
Amen.
Quote from: Seth on October 18, 2009, 11:37:19 PM
Just a question. Do works come from faith, or are works good enough to cover unbelief? Does God consider the faithless to be faithful if they have works?
In other words is OUR OWN love and OUR OWN works of love good enough to cover the sin of unbelief?
So much for righteous by faith. I guess under this system we would not need to tell anyone about Christ. They already believe if we perceive them to be loving enough right, even if they never heard?
Romans 10:13-15
for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"
This becomes a moot scripture if their own love and their own good works can substitute for "the hearing of faith."
Galatians 3:5
He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Yet another moot scripture.
1 John 5:10
He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
So those who do hear the message and reject it, do NOT make God a liar? And those who have their own love and their own works still has the witness in himself that Jesus is the Son of God, so that they believe without believing?
I think that the biggest implicit assertion that you seem to be making here which I disagree with is that love is effectively a work apart from faith. I do not believe that that is the case. As I have noted elsewhere, the sense of the Greek word for "believe" as applied to Jesus does not refer to factual belief, but rather the sincere belief one might have in one's spiritual leader. Love is not a work, but rather love is the basis from which works may come. And just as we are told that anyone who loves knows God and has been born of God, so too do I not believe that one who truly loves is acting outside of God.
The bottom line is that I do not believe that there is "our" love and then "Godly" love; I believe that there is only love and non-love. Love is from God, because God is love, whereas non-love is not. And I believe that anyone who truly loves
does believe in Jesus, whether or not they intellectually know it. This is the only way I can find to reconcile the verses regarding belief in Jesus with the verses speaking of love and goodwill that sits well enough with me - the statements that that love and goodwill is simply a manifestation of pre-formed belief in Jesus just does not work for me.
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 18, 2009, 11:46:53 PM
Good works does not make faith.
Faith does make good works.
I think the true sign of a saint is that the person believes and does good works.
:2thumbs:
I guess, technically, I'd have to agree that any true love must in itself originate from God. Love is certainly involved in salvation ("no greater love..."), and then a big evidence of having been given the faith to believe in and call on the name of Jesus.
Reminded me of the following from Thomas Kissinger:
"Eph. 2:10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
I remember when this verse became alive to me and I was able to understand what was being said. It was so liberating and refreshing to know that GOD was the One responsible to work on me, in me, and through me to make me in His image.
You see...we are really able to do nothing for God in and of ourselves. Many people think they are "doing a work for God", as though they are "helping God out". In essence, GOD IS DOING A WORK FOR US! He is doing something in and through us that we are not capable of doing, and it is this: We are being created in Christ Jesus unto good works!
Left up to ourselves we can do nothing but walk and live in the flesh and constantly come short of the glory of God. This is why Jesus said...
John 15:4-5
4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." - Thomas Kissinger
:HeartThrob:
original Question, Oh most assuredly
even a tribe in some far off island that has never seen an outsider can know Love / God
Lee Damboise II
Besides the reference of "God in nature" that is often taken out of context, what's the scriptural proof for that (if you're speaking in terms of being saved); that faithfully incorporates all the scriptures about the name of Jesus, hearing, believing, calling on Him?
I think Paul often talked of strangers, and those without hope and without God in this world. I would also state that I believe knowing about God and "loving" some conceptualization of a supreme being is different than knowing God as a Father and the Father of the Son, our Savior. I believe the latter comes only from spiritual rebirth.
Every thing has a beginning, and ALL THINGS ARE out of God...
Lee
I do agree with that :thumbsup:. (Except for God having a beginning.) But THAT's another story! :bigGrin:)
Quote from: Gab on October 19, 2009, 02:20:31 AM
Quote from: Seth on October 18, 2009, 11:37:19 PM
Just a question. Do works come from faith, or are works good enough to cover unbelief? Does God consider the faithless to be faithful if they have works?
In other words is OUR OWN love and OUR OWN works of love good enough to cover the sin of unbelief?
So much for righteous by faith. I guess under this system we would not need to tell anyone about Christ. They already believe if we perceive them to be loving enough right, even if they never heard?
Romans 10:13-15
for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"
This becomes a moot scripture if their own love and their own good works can substitute for "the hearing of faith."
Galatians 3:5
He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Yet another moot scripture.
1 John 5:10
He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
So those who do hear the message and reject it, do NOT make God a liar? And those who have their own love and their own works still has the witness in himself that Jesus is the Son of God, so that they believe without believing?
I think that the biggest implicit assertion that you seem to be making here which I disagree with is that love is effectively a work apart from faith. I do not believe that that is the case. As I have noted elsewhere, the sense of the Greek word for "believe" as applied to Jesus does not refer to factual belief, but rather the sincere belief one might have in one's spiritual leader. Love is not a work, but rather love is the basis from which works may come. And just as we are told that anyone who loves knows God and has been born of God, so too do I not believe that one who truly loves is acting outside of God.
The bottom line is that I do not believe that there is "our" love and then "Godly" love; I believe that there is only love and non-love. Love is from God, because God is love, whereas non-love is not. And I believe that anyone who truly loves does believe in Jesus, whether or not they intellectually know it. This is the only way I can find to reconcile the verses regarding belief in Jesus with the verses speaking of love and goodwill that sits well enough with me - the statements that that love and goodwill is simply a manifestation of pre-formed belief in Jesus just does not work for me.
Gab i agree, i think anyone who truly loves will 'know' that they are still a long way from perfection and rely on God to save them, heathen or otherwise, they will 'know' within them their need for a saviour and they're hearts will cry out for that. I also believe that anyone who loves much and knows about Jesus would understand Jesus and come to him.
Quote from: jabcat on October 19, 2009, 02:54:33 AM
Besides the reference of "God in nature" that is often taken out of context, what's the scriptural proof for that (if you're speaking in terms of being saved); that faithfully incorporates all the scriptures about the name of Jesus, hearing, believing, calling on Him?
I think Paul often talked of strangers, and those without hope and without God in this world. I would also state that I believe knowing about God and "loving" some conceptualization of a supreme being is different than knowing God as a Father and the Father of the Son, our Savior. I believe the latter comes only from spiritual rebirth.
But the thing, again, is that the passage in 1 John 4 doesn't say that one knows
about God, but rather that one
knows God. The Greek word there for "know" is
ginoskei, which means "to come to know; to receive knowledge of; to understand; to perceive". It is used in other verses such as these:
"Now while he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many people saw the miraculous signs he was doing and believed in his name. But Jesus would not entrust himself to them, for he
knew (ginoskein) all men. He did not need man's testimony about man, for he
knew (eginosken) what was in a man." (John 2:23-25)
"If God were your Father, you would love me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on my own initiative, but he sent me. Why do you not
understand (ginoskete) what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear my word." (John 8:42-43)
"I am the good shepherd;
I know (ginosko) my sheep and my sheep
know me (ginoskomai) — just as the Father
knows (ginoskei) me and I
know (ginosko) the Father — and I lay down my life for the sheep." (John 10:14-15)
"Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is
recognized (ginosketai) by its fruit." (Matthew 12:33)
And then in 1 John:
"Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and
knows (ginoskei) God." (1 John 4:7)
It seems pretty clear to me that the word does not simply refer to knowing about something, in the sense of, "Oh, yeah, I heard about that," but rather is speaking of true knowledge and understanding of the item or entity being described - it is the same sort of knowledge that the Father and Jesus are plainly said to have.
The verse being used in I John regarding "those that love know God", is of course very true. The other night there was some discussion about the order of the words, i.e., that it doesn't say if you know God, then you'll love, but the other way around. Interesting to look at the whole context of the passage. I believe when doing so, it does become more clear that the former is the case - that love is a manifestation of knowing God. Not only because I believe that is consistent with the rest of the Gospel, but reading on down in the passage there's this - 15God abides in those who confess that Jesus is the Son of God, and they abide in God. 16So we have known and believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and those who abide in love abide in God, and God abides in them. So I believe the context is important here.
Quote from: Gab on October 19, 2009, 03:51:39 AM
It seems pretty clear to me that the word does not simply refer to knowing about something, in the sense of, "Oh, yeah, I heard about that," but rather is speaking of true knowledge and understanding of the item or entity being described - it is the same sort of knowledge that the Father and Jesus are plainly said to have.
Hi Gab. Absolutely, I agree and have stated, it's not just about knowledge. At its most basic level, I believe knowledge is involved, but it's knowledge of Who to then call upon, Who to look to for our salvation. Because "there's no other Name under heaven whereby men must be saved". So IMO, knowledge, love, faith, belief, and trust all go together, not separate from each other. And then manifestations come out of the spiritual rebirth. God gives faith to believe (Eph. 2:8), and "without faith it is impossible to please God" (Hebrews 11:6).
Paul said in Acts that at one time God winked at ignorance, but now He is commanding "all men everywhere to repent...he hath appointed a day in which he will judge the world in righteousness by the man whom he hath ordained." God has introduced His Son to us - by name. It's no longer a mystery.
James.
Quote from: Gab on October 19, 2009, 02:20:31 AM
Quote from: Seth on October 18, 2009, 11:37:19 PM
Just a question. Do works come from faith, or are works good enough to cover unbelief? Does God consider the faithless to be faithful if they have works?
In other words is OUR OWN love and OUR OWN works of love good enough to cover the sin of unbelief?
So much for righteous by faith. I guess under this system we would not need to tell anyone about Christ. They already believe if we perceive them to be loving enough right, even if they never heard?
Romans 10:13-15
for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"
This becomes a moot scripture if their own love and their own good works can substitute for "the hearing of faith."
Galatians 3:5
He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Yet another moot scripture.
1 John 5:10
He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
So those who do hear the message and reject it, do NOT make God a liar? And those who have their own love and their own works still has the witness in himself that Jesus is the Son of God, so that they believe without believing?
I think that the biggest implicit assertion that you seem to be making here which I disagree with is that love is effectively a work apart from faith. I do not believe that that is the case. As I have noted elsewhere, the sense of the Greek word for "believe" as applied to Jesus does not refer to factual belief, but rather the sincere belief one might have in one's spiritual leader.
I disagree. Christ is the only spiritual leader. Therefore, since nobody goes to the Father but through Him, there is no other spiritual leader who gives aionios life. Aionios life is to know God and the Son, and to not have the Son is to not have the Father.
QuoteThe bottom line is that I do not believe that there is "our" love and then "Godly" love; I believe that there is only love and non-love.
You are free to believe what you like, but the scripture is clear: there is a difference between OUR righteousness and the righteousness of God.
Quote from: jabcat on October 19, 2009, 05:59:20 AM
Quote from: Gab on October 19, 2009, 03:51:39 AM
It seems pretty clear to me that the word does not simply refer to knowing about something, in the sense of, "Oh, yeah, I heard about that," but rather is speaking of true knowledge and understanding of the item or entity being described - it is the same sort of knowledge that the Father and Jesus are plainly said to have.
Hi Gab. Absolutely, I agree and have stated, it's not just about knowledge. At its most basic level, I believe knowledge is involved, but it's knowledge of Who to then call upon, Who to look to for our salvation. Because "there's no other Name under heaven whereby men must be saved". So IMO, knowledge, love, faith, belief, and trust all go together, not separate from each other. And then manifestations come out of the spiritual rebirth. God gives faith to believe (Eph. 2:8), and "without faith it is impossible to please God" (Hebrews 11:6).
Paul said in Acts that at one time God winked at ignorance, but now He is commanding "all men everywhere to repent...he hath appointed a day in which he will judge the world in righteousness by the man whom he hath ordained." God has introduced His Son to us - by name. It's no longer a mystery.
James.
Amen, James :thumbsup:
It was not in vain that Paul said:
Romans 10:13-15
for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"
QuoteYou are free to believe what you like, but the scripture is clear: there is a difference between OUR righteousness and the righteousness of God.
Acts 10:35---"in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him." Salvation by works? Kinda' sounds like it..
However, let's not confuse love with righteousness. No-one is "righteous" as God requires it. It's a gift we have all been given.
Quote from: whyiloveitaly on October 19, 2009, 06:55:44 PM
QuoteYou are free to believe what you like, but the scripture is clear: there is a difference between OUR righteousness and the righteousness of God.
Acts 10:35---"in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him." Salvation by works? Kinda' sounds like it..
However, let's not confuse love with righteousness. No-one is "righteous" as God requires it. It's a gift we have all been given.
Love IS righteous. It's not salvation BY works, it is salvation FROM evil works (like racism, murder rape) into good works (like love).
Since nobody is righteous as God requires it, God gives the Holy Spirit which is the impartation of the Divine Nature so that he gives his righteousness to the world THROUGH us.
2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.
Quote from: SethYou are free to believe what you like, but the scripture is clear: there is a difference between OUR righteousness and the righteousness of God.
This is true, sadly enough.
Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
Quote from: Molly on October 19, 2009, 07:11:25 PM
Quote from: SethYou are free to believe what you like, but the scripture is clear: there is a difference between OUR righteousness and the righteousness of God.
This is true, sadly enough.
Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
Yes, that is why our Lord is so important to us. :HeartThrob:
While we are coming "to" Christ, to being IN Christ,
it is the working of the law that brings us there. While
under the law, there we have our OWN righteousness.
Not to say there are not rewards for "believing" in this
realm.....but this is not "salvation." For it is OUR works
and the law came by MOSES but
Grace and Truth by Jesus Christ
This is where "salvation" comes from
Oh that I may be found in HIM, not not not having
my own righteousness.......which is of the law......
WE wait for the hope of righteousness.......
His.
I don't know what is so hard to understand about that.
It confirms for me that any works apart from faith in Jesus Christ (since the law is not of faith) are unacceptable, which is why the Bible says "Without faith it is impossible to please Him."
As long as I speak the Gospel it will be a Christ-centric one whereby belief in Christ, being the the only One by which any man may go to the Father is a foundation.
Quote from: Seth on October 19, 2009, 06:44:19 PM
I disagree. Christ is the only spiritual leader. Therefore, since nobody goes to the Father but through Him, there is no other spiritual leader who gives aionios life. Aionios life is to know God and the Son, and to not have the Son is to not have the Father.
Then why are we told that anyone who loves knows God? The Greek word translated into "know" in John 17:3 (which is the verse to which you refer) is
ginosko once again - the same as in 1 John 4. And we are told by Jesus:
"Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him." (John 14:21)
I mean no offense by this, but it really seems as though you're trying to make one verse "win", in a sense, against the other, which just doesn't work - an interpretation has to account for
every verse, which I have attempted to do above. As I said, from my reading of it, one who loves is one who
does have faith - not intellectual faith known to the brain, but emotional faith known to the heart. The love of God resides in the heart, not the brain.
If the Pharisees can "honor (God) with their lips" while "their hearts are far from (him)" (Matthew 15:8), then it seems to me that we can surely separate the two, which opens for me the very real possibility of the reverse: one may not honor God with their lips, but one's heart may be close to him.
Quote from: Seth on October 19, 2009, 06:44:19 PM
You are free to believe what you like, but the scripture is clear: there is a difference between OUR righteousness and the righteousness of God.
I'm speaking of love. What is the scriptural basis for the idea that passages such as 1 John 4:7-18 and 1 Corinthians 13 are speaking of a separate love attainable only through the intellectual belief that Jesus is the son of God? Honest question.
Seth (and others):
Please forgive me if I offended you for what you believe in. I don't want you to take my posts the wrong way.
I very much agree with the divine nature aspect.
Personally, I prefer to have the works AND faith rather than just faith. I think works are necessary to salvation, and I believe that God will find fault with me if I don't do them. Besides, since I got saved in 1990 I can't really distinguish between my righteousness and God's righteousness, so I'm happy to do the works too! That's just my stance on things, and it may be that the Lord will have to correct me on that. I'm ready for that.
Anyway, that's just where I'm at today, and it's not like you have to believe the same things I do. Everybody is different, and that's part of God's plan, too!
Love to all,
Brian
Quote from: whyiloveitaly on October 20, 2009, 12:06:15 PM
Seth (and others):
Please forgive me if I offended you for what you believe in. I don't want you to take my posts the wrong way.
I very much agree with the divine nature aspect.
Personally, I prefer to have the works AND faith rather than just faith. I think works are necessary to salvation, and I believe that God will find fault with me if I don't do them. Besides, since I got saved in 1990 I can't really distinguish between my righteousness and God's righteousness, so I'm happy to do the works too! That's just my stance on things, and it may be that the Lord will have to correct me on that. I'm ready for that.
Anyway, that's just where I'm at today, and it's not like you have to believe the same things I do. Everybody is different, and that's part of God's plan, too!
Love to all,
Brian
I agree.
John 14:15
"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
Matthew 12:50 >>
For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."
I believe in God to save me and realize that no matter how many good works i do they will be 'filthy rag's', but surely God is worth the effort to at least try and please him? And surely our 'good works' attract others.
Matthew 5:16 >>
In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.
Quote from: Gab on October 20, 2009, 06:23:04 AM
Quote from: Seth on October 19, 2009, 06:44:19 PM
I disagree. Christ is the only spiritual leader. Therefore, since nobody goes to the Father but through Him, there is no other spiritual leader who gives aionios life. Aionios life is to know God and the Son, and to not have the Son is to not have the Father.
Then why are we told that anyone who loves knows God? The Greek word translated into "know" in John 17:3 (which is the verse to which you refer) is ginosko once again - the same as in 1 John 4. And we are told by Jesus:
"Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him." (John 14:21)
I mean no offense by this, but it really seems as though you're trying to make one verse "win", in a sense, against the other, which just doesn't work.
I think I am doing the opposite. I am considering ALL scriptures that teach a belief and faith in Jesus Christ the Son of God as the foundation for righteousness of God not righteousness that comes from a lack of faith in Christ, which isn't righteousness at all.
QuoteI'm speaking of love. What is the scriptural basis for the idea that passages such as 1 John 4:7-18 and 1 Corinthians 13 are speaking of a separate love attainable only through the intellectual belief that Jesus is the son of God? Honest question.
I don't doubt your honesty. The scriptural basis is what I have already provided in this thread. And it isn't about intellectualism, but the faith of Christ, crying "Abba, Father" within us. It isn't our own faith. However, it is not faith in other "spiritual leaders" either.
Also referring to the fact that man cannot work his way into salvation by doing good works, I am going to say that "filthy rags" also refers to those things not done in love. I'm going to stand on a limb here and say I don't think God would call something being done in love, from the heart a "filthy rag". What is Jesus 2nd command? To love our neighbor as ourself.
There are things that are done, good works that are done, but the person doing them has a different idea in their heart, it is not done out of "love", but out of some sort of selfish gain for theirself. Look at it this way... Let's take two people:
A. a person who believes in God, yet thinks that if he does good works, his "mansion in heaven" will be just a little bigger if he goes out and volunteers in a soup kitchen. He doesn't like doing it. It's a drag. He goes in and puts in his time, talks to people about God, etc. Tells others how he volunteers at soup kitchens, and acts all pious. All along, in his heart, he is not really doing it for the poor people that are in need, he's doing it because he thinks this will get him "more stuff" in heaven.
and
B. a person who maybe doesn't even necessarily believe in God, but sees the need of others, sees people hurting and goes in and from the love in their heart (All love is from one source: God), has mercy on these people and helps them.
Which is the filthy rags? I think it's pretty plain.
This is why I say there will be some christians who die who will not recognize Jesus when they encounter Him. And there will be some atheists/people of other religions who die who will recognize Jesus right away.
God is love.
Every knee will bow.
"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you:"
What is God's name?
Love.
Are these "good works" REALLY done "in thy name"... are they really done in love?
I think this is what God wants us to search in our hearts.
God wants our hearts to be filled with HIM.
p.s. I had a dream about God's name being "love" I was discussing with an ET believer and she was upset, screaming at me, so I backed off a bit not wanting to get her upset, and she yelling that I didn't know God, and she was goading me "What's God's name???!!! What's God's name, huh??!!" and I told her God's name was "Love". Then she left. I went and sat down on the floor next to the couch and kind of sighed. Then a man who was sitting on the couch kind of put his hand on me and said something encouraging to me. I don't remember what he said. I wrote it down, but can't remember now.
Well, just some thoughts.
I fully agree with your conclusion of example A and B. The A-group is the gnashing of teeth group.
Do you think your dream has a meaning? (besides God=love)
QuoteA. a person who believes in God, yet thinks that if he does good works, his "mansion in heaven" will be just a little bigger if he goes out and volunteers in a soup kitchen. He doesn't like doing it. It's a drag. He goes in and puts in his time, talks to people about God, etc. Tells others how he volunteers at soup kitchens, and acts all pious. All along, in his heart, he is not really doing it for the poor people that are in need, he's doing it because he thinks this will get him "more stuff" in heaven.
and
B. a person who maybe doesn't even necessarily believe in God, but sees the need of others, sees people hurting and goes in and from the love in their heart (All love is from one source: God), has mercy on these people and helps them.
Which is the filthy rags? I think it's pretty plain.
Hi Sparrow,
Here is the crux. We are talking about GENUINE faith, aren't we? Paul said that we should examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith. If that person examined himself, would he find himself in the faith? He sounds like a Pharisee. But this is not the Bride of Christ. The Bride of Christ has both genuine faith, and works that flow forth from that faith in Christ.
Romans 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Romans 5:1
Therefore being justified by faith,
we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Can anyone show me the scripture that says we have peace with God through faith in any other "spiritual leader" than Jesus Christ? How about our
own works, do they justify us without faith in
Jesus Christ?
Romans 10
1Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness,
have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
6
But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
7Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
8But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.In MHO my answer to "which are the filthy rags?" is both.
Without faith it is impossible to please God. It doesn't matter how much WE think we are being genuine. We are not justified by any faith in anyone other than Jesus Christ.
This really grieves me. I will not be returning to this conversation. I cannot believe we have gotten to a point where we aren't even teaching people that belief in Christ is even essential to the Gospel anymore. This is sad. I know I am practically a lone voice in this, but I know that NO MAN is justified before God without faith in the Son who died for the world and was raised three days later.
I know as an ETer, if I would have seen that version of UR, I would have stopped reading Gary's material and stayed with my old church.
:sigh:
Quote
Every knee will bow.
I think that point in my post was overlooked.
and perhaps I did not explain myself well.
Every knee will bow.
At the name of Jesus, every knee will bow.
There are many people out there who do not KNOW Jesus... but who WILL know Jesus, either in this life or the next. Either way, EVERY knee will bow.
In my examples, I was talking about those who yell and holler about God all day long, but their hearts are far from Him. And those who do not think they know God, yet their hearts are actually close to Him. They just don't realize it. Here you have two groups of people, one professing to KNOW God, one who doesn't. Who REALLY does know more of God in these two examples?
I have never once said that belief and faith in Jesus is not essential.But just because a person professes to have faith... doesn't actually necessarily mean that their heart is close to God. There are some people in this world who do not KNOW that they actually know God, yet when they will encounter Jesus Christ, whether in this life or the next... .they WILL recognize Him. That was my point.
God looks at the heart. His ways are above ours.
Who shows more of God's love in this world?
People like Fred Phelps?
????
Just because he talks about and says he has faith in Jesus Christ?
This isn't about salvation. I'm not talking about the gospel.This is specifically talking about two groups of people.
and those whose heart may be closer to God's than they think.
And those whose heart is further from God's than they think.That's really the only point I was trying to make.
Perceptions.
There are a lot of atheists out there who need to understand that the love in their heart....the source of that love is GOD! They need to make the connection first! In order to even understand CHRIST... they need to get past these people who profess to know God yet their actions speak otherwise. This is a HUGE stumbling block, in my eyes. I want people to know that the LOVE in their heart is GOD. That is what they need to understand.
That's the whole point in posting what I posted. I care about these loving people in the world who feel that they can never understand God. They look around at christianity and what do they see??
I want them to get past these stumbling blocks that people who profess to know God put in everyone's path.
This is why I'm passionate about this topic.
I'm sorry if it seemed that I was saying that faith in Jesus is not essential.
That's not at all what I was saying. :sigh:
I'm saying faith in Jesus is essential, of course, but to get to that faith, people need to connect the love in their heart with God. They need to make that connection.
Otherwise, will they ever come to a place where they UNDERSTAND Christ?
The connection needs to be made.
The stumbling blocks need to be kicked out of the way.
QuoteWho shows more of God's love in this world?
People like Fred Phelps?
????
Just because he talks about and says he has faith in Jesus Christ?
I hear what you are saying Sparrow, and thank you for clarifying.
I draw a distinction between those who CLAIM faith in Christ, and those who have GENUINE faith. That is why I agreed with WW when he said that the Bride has
both faith in Christ and good works. They WILL recognize Christ when they see him. And Bride is what invites all, both A and B in your example to drink from the water of life and it is that Bride that will receive all creation into their liberty.
So I agree, faith that hasn't been tried (via the Book of Peter) may be found to be lacking love and therefore dead (via James). Phelps version of faith is intellectual belief, but no walking by the Spirit. In Romans 8 Paul said that there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ who walk according to the Spirit, not those who claim faith and do not walk by the Spirit.
My disagreement is with the idea that walking by the Spirit is done by those who have no faith. What use would it be then for beautiful feet to bring Good News? No use at all. For those who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved, how will they believe if they have not heard?
The question is, what are we saying? Believe the testimony of Christ, or don't worry about believing, just keep doing good and being a good person? To me, that isn't the Gospel. I am not saying that is what you are saying. But speaking in general about this UR fad to downplay faith in Christ alone, which I do believe is occurring on this thread.
But are you saying that those who do not have faith yet but do have soft hearts, are more prepared to receive Christ than those who claim faith but have no love? I agree with that and I am sorry if I misunderstood.
The reason I am passionate about this issue is because I know ETers do their research (as I did) and if they come across this "many roads leading to God" stuff, they will know full well that is not scriptural, and will reject the rest of the message due to that unscriptural teaching, and be robbed of the full joy of the truth. I would have been.
The main point of the thread is do athiests who have love know God. The answer is no. That is why the feet who bring Good News are beautiful. If athiests who have love are counted by God to know him and are justified by their own works, then take the beautiful feet that being the Good News, chop them off and throw them into the Gehenna because they are useless feet.
Gary's feet were beautiful because they brought the Good News which had nothing to do with following other spiritual leaders and knowing without knowing.
Quote from: Seth on October 20, 2009, 08:28:37 PM
But are you saying that those who do not have faith yet but do have soft hearts, are more prepared to receive Christ than those who claim faith but have no love? I agree with that and I am sorry if I misunderstood.
Bingo!
And no apology necessary. I know that what I said in my previous post could have been percieved in the wrong way, I guess I was just hoping that it wouldn't. But, my fault I didn't make myself clear. It's a fine line what I am saying, and it could definitely, definitely easily be percieved in a way that was far from the intent.
Both groups of people are walking in a form of darkness.
I just have a heart for those who are hurt by religion, and religious unloving people keep daming them to hell. When in reality, SOME of those who are being hurt have more of God's love in their heart than the religious people, they just don't know it yet. They just haven't made the connection.
They don't yet realize the source of that love is GOD. These people are more prepared to receive Christ, yes.. I believe this.
I've been spending a bit of time at a forum full of very unloving fundamentalists and a few people who show real compassion, real love, real patience.... yet they are not believers. The contrast is striking. You can see God waving at you in their hearts, but
they can't see Him. I think my posts reflect the feelings inside of my heart witnessing this phenomenon. I so want them to see the connection. That's all.
Oh and the "many roads to God" thing... yes I understand what you are saying.
Quote from: Seth on October 20, 2009, 08:37:56 PM
The main point of the thread is do athiests who have love know God. The answer is no. That is why the feet who bring Good News are beautiful. If athiests who have love are counted by God to know him and are justified by their own works, then take the beautiful feet that being the Good News, chop them off and throw them into the Gehenna because they are useless feet.
Gary's feet were beautiful because they brought the Good News which had nothing to do with following other spiritual leaders and knowing without knowing.
But I believe that they WILL more easily recognize Him when encountering Him.
Whereas those who believe the ET God, the vengeful, spiteful, non-loving, full of wrath god who will torment their enemies forever... will have a harder time recognizing Him when encountering Him.
So, really I think it's fair to say that in a sense, they DO know MORE ABOUT God than some religious fundamentalist, ET-believing , hateful people (like Fred phelps). They just don't realize that they know some things about God. They don't see God as loving. So they don't make the connection. But the knowledge is there in their heart, lying dormant. But they are tapping into it
but still not understanding the source.
Again, this isn't about who is the bride, or having faith, or the gospel...
This is simply about what is in a person's heart.
The source of ALL love is God.
God IS IN some people's hearts yet they don't yet know that it is God.
They haven't made the connection yet.
Edited to add: This is tough to talk about on a discussion board. It just is. I really hope that I'm getting my point across in the right way. I really do think that God's plan of salvation is magnificent and everything will make sense. I can see God's plan as being just perfect.
Those who believe and have faith and have works.
Those who believe yet don't have faith.
Those who don't believe.
Those who do good works out of the love in their heart yet don't have faith.
Just God going in and burning out all the dross.... in all of us.
And all of us understanding WHO He is.
WHO Jesus is. and What Jesus came and accomplished.
I just see the plan as perfect.
Everyone in their due time.
In God's time and in God's way and nothing less.
Every knee will bow.
How every knee GETS to that point is God's will.
Quote from: Seth on October 20, 2009, 08:28:37 PM
[I draw a distinction between those who CLAIM faith in Christ, and those who have GENUINE faith. That is why I agreed with WW when he said that the Bride has both faith in Christ and good works.
Yes we did but we seem to disagree on Sparrows A & B example
QuoteThey WILL recognize Christ when they see him. And Bride is what invites all, both A and B in your example to drink from the water of life and it is that Bride that will receive all creation into their liberty.
Perhaps the problems lays in what 'rags' actually are/means.
For me rags are on the outside. The outside has nothing to do wit faith; only with works.
That's replied A was the person with filthy rags.
Quote from: Seth on October 20, 2009, 07:38:39 PM
This really grieves me. I will not be returning to this conversation. I cannot believe we have gotten to a point where we aren't even teaching people that belief in Christ is even essential to the Gospel anymore.
That answer really puzzles me Seth. At least 75% of Sparrows post are loaded with love for Father?Son/HS and you draw the conclusion her opinion is that Jesus is not needed?
How could you! :winkgrin: :Peace: :Peace2:
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 20, 2009, 08:59:24 PM
Quote from: Seth on October 20, 2009, 07:38:39 PM
This really grieves me. I will not be returning to this conversation. I cannot believe we have gotten to a point where we aren't even teaching people that belief in Christ is even essential to the Gospel anymore.
That answer really puzzles me Seth. At least 75% of Sparrows post are loaded with love for Father?Son/HS and you draw the conclusion her opinion is that Jesus is not needed?
How could you! :winkgrin: :Peace: :Peace2:
:grin: lol.
In all fairness, I really don't think I made myself clear. I'm sure if I was saying what Seth THOUGHT I was saying... then he would definitely be grieved.
I totally understand. :HeartThrob:
This is a tough subject.
Esp. to discuss on a forum away from in person interaction.
for sure.
Quote from: Seth on October 20, 2009, 08:37:56 PM
The main point of the thread is do athiests who have love know God. The answer is no.
My answer is.. not so sure.
Gonna play a bit with words to get my point across
To steal Sparrows words: God is love.
It's also written God wrote laws on hearts.
Surely atheists don't believe in God. That's the defenition of an atheist.
But we can't ignore the other two facts because of that human defenition.
The atheist knows what love is because he helped the people in Sparrows example.
God=love
The atheist knows what God is because he helped the people in Sparrows example.
As said a play with words; but hopefully a little insight how I (force?) fit the verses together.
Quote from: Tim B on October 13, 2009, 06:31:45 AM
So, I've wondered about this, and I'm honestly beginning to believe it more and more: do more people know God than we think?
John said that if we know love than we'll know God, because God IS love.
Now, I know of many people who claim they know God, but hardly love, and I know of people that don't believe in the "Christian" God, but are more loving.
So basically, do you think that there's some people, that despite their claiming not to believe in the "Christian" God or, perhaps, even claim to be atheists, actually really DO know God? Like, Ghandi, for instance? I mean, as he said: "I like Jesus, I just don't like his followers." (Or something along those lines.) This sounds like somebody who certainly knows what love is, but doesn't like the Christians' hypocrisy.
Well, this you must understand. When you say "Christian" God, you will not get a responce from most people that will see "Christian universalism" so in effect even Christian universalists are said to "not" worship the Christian God.
When it comes down to it, the Christian God is associated with either Eternal Hell or Anihillation.
Once you understand that and realize that the vast majority of teachings in Christianity are in error (and that includes most anything not associated directly with hell, even prayer) you will then start to observe Christ in people that are not associated with the word Christian in the first place. Then you will realize a realm beyond word association. ;)
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 20, 2009, 08:59:24 PM
Quote from: Seth on October 20, 2009, 07:38:39 PM
This really grieves me. I will not be returning to this conversation. I cannot believe we have gotten to a point where we aren't even teaching people that belief in Christ is even essential to the Gospel anymore.
That answer really puzzles me Seth. At least 75% of Sparrows post are loaded with love for Father?Son/HS and you draw the conclusion her opinion is that Jesus is not needed?
How could you! :winkgrin: :Peace: :Peace2:
LOL, no she clarified her meaning about that.
I mean this in all humor. I could say "smurfs" in 75% of a post and be saying that "smurfs" are not needed. :laughing7:
Quote from: Seth on October 20, 2009, 09:40:18 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 20, 2009, 08:59:24 PM
Quote from: Seth on October 20, 2009, 07:38:39 PM
This really grieves me. I will not be returning to this conversation. I cannot believe we have gotten to a point where we aren't even teaching people that belief in Christ is even essential to the Gospel anymore.
That answer really puzzles me Seth. At least 75% of Sparrows post are loaded with love for Father?Son/HS and you draw the conclusion her opinion is that Jesus is not needed?
How could you! :winkgrin: :Peace: :Peace2:
LOL, no she clarified her meaning about that.
I mean this in all humor. I could say "smurfs" in 75% of a post and be saying that "smurfs" are not needed. :laughing7:
I know it is clarified. Lucky you because when Sparrow gets angry she transforms into seagull with a full belly :laughing7:
Typo from me. Post=posts => all her 1000+ post on this forum.
Quote from: Seth on October 20, 2009, 07:38:39 PM
This really grieves me. I will not be returning to this conversation. I cannot believe we have gotten to a point where we aren't even teaching people that belief in Christ is even essential to the Gospel anymore. This is sad. I know I am practically a lone voice in this, but I know that NO MAN is justified before God without faith in the Son who died for the world and was raised three days later.
I know as an ETer, if I would have seen that version of UR, I would have stopped reading Gary's material and stayed with my old church.
:sigh:
Largely it is a misunderstanding.
I believe all are saved through Christ, but I also view "Christ" as the spiritual nature of Godly enablement.
Christ to the vast majority of believers is a word that you must make a choice to believe in. While it will be said that "Word" is the son of God, it actually is about the "word" and a religious expectation and it is not spiritual at all.
So if our salvation is spiritual, why are most religious people still steeped in traditional expectations of which Jesus was killed opposing?
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 20, 2009, 09:07:26 PM
Quote from: Seth on October 20, 2009, 08:37:56 PM
The main point of the thread is do athiests who have love know God. The answer is no.
My answer is.. not so sure.
Gonna play a bit with words to get my point across
To steal Sparrows words: God is love.
It's also written God wrote laws on hearts.
Surely atheists don't believe in God. That's the defenition of an atheist.
But we can't ignore the other two facts because of that human defenition.
The atheist knows what love is because he helped the people in Sparrows example.
God=love
The atheist knows what God is because he helped the people in Sparrows example.
As said a play with words; but hopefully a little insight how I (force?) fit the verses together.
It's an interesting play with words. But it needs to be reconciled to the scripture to see if it is consistent with the Gospel message. So when I post scriptures which clearly show that those who deny Christ also deny the Father like this: Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that
acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. 1 John 2:23
And
Romans 9:33
As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
and many more scriptures I have posted like that are the benchmark by which I will judge for myself the accuracy of your wordplay to the Gospel message.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on October 20, 2009, 09:49:47 PM
Quote from: Seth on October 20, 2009, 07:38:39 PM
This really grieves me. I will not be returning to this conversation. I cannot believe we have gotten to a point where we aren't even teaching people that belief in Christ is even essential to the Gospel anymore. This is sad. I know I am practically a lone voice in this, but I know that NO MAN is justified before God without faith in the Son who died for the world and was raised three days later.
I know as an ETer, if I would have seen that version of UR, I would have stopped reading Gary's material and stayed with my old church.
:sigh:
Largely it is a misunderstanding.
I believe all are saved through Christ, but I also view "Christ" as the spiritual nature of Godly enablement.
Christ to the vast majority of believers is a word that you must make a choice to believe in. While it will be said that "Word" is the son of God, it actually is about the "word" and a religious expectation and it is not spiritual at all.
So if our salvation is spiritual, why are most religious people still steeped in traditional expectations of which Jesus was killed opposing?
Are you talking about "traditional expectaions" like:
That if thou shalt
confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Jesus never opposed that one. He proclaimed it.
Quote from: Tim B on October 13, 2009, 06:31:45 AM
So, I've wondered about this, and I'm honestly beginning to believe it more and more: do more people know God than we think?
John said that if we know love than we'll know God, because God IS love.
Now, I know of many people who claim they know God, but hardly love, and I know of people that don't believe in the "Christian" God, but are more loving.
So basically, do you think that there's some people, that despite their claiming not to believe in the "Christian" God or, perhaps, even claim to be atheists, actually really DO know God? Like, Ghandi, for instance? I mean, as he said: "I like Jesus, I just don't like his followers." (Or something along those lines.) This sounds like somebody who certainly knows what love is, but doesn't like the Christians' hypocrisy.
There are statements in the New Testament. It says in Galatians that while you're under the weak and beggarly elements of this world, you don't know God at all. And then there's another set of Scriptures [elsewhere] that'll say that when you know Him, you'll be just like Him, although Galatians implies the same in it's first chapter where St. Paul's being a Greek dramatist as he is at the opening of at least a couple of his other epistles with essentially making himself the Apocalypse. John's writings are particularly stubborn 'cause he equates love not with kindness and generocity or a warm feeling or whatever, but dogmatically asserts that love is the keeping of the commandments of the Scriptures.
What I mean by John's writings being particularly stubborn is that there aren't portions that stand alone. You have to either know all of it, or you don't know anything about it at all. Hence Paul's comment that if you think you know something when you don't yet, then you're an imbicile. Paul's epistles tend to be almost as structured, and by saying what he said along those lines, he's calling attention to that, but John would have been more conscious of passing on tradition of what Christ Jesus said, so he's holding you in the moment of those memories of all He said. And evidently, almost the whole Gospel of John and the entirety of the 3 general epistles of John all came out of that conversation and prayer time of John chapters 13 thru 17. James tends to be the same way with that whole epistle being "Sermon on the Mount" material. Jude's perhaps additional stuff that came out when the Pharisees were getting yelled at in Matthew 23.
Paul was preaching that same stuff PLUS what he was getting out of meditating in the Scriptures. Peter and Paul seem to depart from sticking with only passing on oral traditions and are more busy with grappling for the souls and life of the Church that includes Gentiles and Peter's heavily influenced by Paul's ministry. Paul's busy with trying to be "Christ for the nations" and is doing his best to let you see what a Greek Christ would look like, hence you've got a lot of Plato's Republican liberality strongly seasoning and flavoring Paul's Gospel. Paul's very concerned with what a global one world faith looks like and is busy with trying to be the New Moses that's writing an international "Torah," hence that's why there are sooo many remarkable discoveries made all of the time in the Greek text in Paul's epistles on par with Torah codes. He's very deliberately working on a systematic symmetry.
An attempt at a symmetry while maintaining the flavor of an Oriental Master (i.e. Mr. Miyagi) is very pronounced in all of their writings. They're all wanting to be another Lao Tzu, or taking a stab at being the Hindu warring Krishna (cf. 2Corinthians 10 w/Gita 4:4). They're trying to reunify East with West under the headship of the absolutely supreme Christ Jesus who in their view is the new Alexander the Great that's Conquered the whole world at 33yrs old and are very consciously doing so in their day with an Oriental "Mandate of Heaven" as His Ambassadors. So, you have to be careful with not isolating statements of their diplomacy with their greater overall theme of commanding the unconditional surrender of every thought, word, and action to Him. Lord Jesus was raised from the dead and after being spit out of Hell like Jonah was from beneath the waves, they've assumed His charred garments as their own and are commanding the repentance of every city that they're viewing as Ninevah.
Paul's having fun in his ministry with deliberately trying to show you what a redeemed Plato would look like. There is an elegance to his epistles that you really only just begin to appreciate in that Rennaisance Master as you're reading one of his epistles over and over and over again aloud for hours. That dude must have been writing a sentence or two every few hours out of what would come to him thru praying in other tongues, as impossible as that might sound to accept when it comes to what the writing materials were like back then, the violence that filled Paul's life, etc. But I really feel like his epistles are part "Commonplace book."
There are many wonderful, really wonderful sweet people in the world, but I have to come back to what Lord Jesus said about Himself: "I am the way, the truth, and the light. No man comes to the Father but by me." The same John that spoke of those that love are knowing God, that contextually you've got to hunt for the meaning of that 'til you find that he's talking about those that keep the Scriptures as first priority and final authority. He's the same John that called not abiding in the Scriptures a transgression in 2John 1:9 - 11: "Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not recieve him into your house nor greet him; for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds."
And you've got to be careful with not oversimplifying John's statement by St. Paul's New Age belief about the Christ within, because John either had very little of that revelation or was coming at it from an entirely different angle from within Jewish tradition. He's approaching the teachings of Lord Jesus, Rabbinically, and viewing Lord Jesus as the New Moses that puts us on a different/greater mountaintop that's passed on to us a new living tradition of Words from God, and if you don't abide in what Lord Jesus SPECIFICALLY said while He was among us, then you don't have God. Love for him is communal and he's very conscious of a community of emerging Christs that are all saying the same things as Lord Jesus. To him, this is love and it's abiding with the Father and the Son, if you do what He's ALREADY said and passed on to us of what He received from the Father.
St. Paul's more the Joshua/Caleb spirit than the Apostles that were before him in making it practical for the nations in saying that because we're doing THIS, it necessarily and emphatically means THAT, particularly factoring in that FOR US Adam's sin NEVER HAPPENED, not because it never did, but because he's viewing Christians as extraterrestrially, as the Melchezedecs that come out of seemingly nowhere with the Bread and Wine to the Abrahams that represent the nations and is blessing them to be the Kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ. Doesn't mean that all are already saved in the least. Means that we're saved and that we're saving them by taking the Gospel to them and commanding their unconditional surrender to the risen Lord Jesus Christ.
We are His Ambassadors PLEADING for them to reconcile themselves to God, according to 2Corinthians 5, because according to Romans 10, if you confess His Lordship believing that God raised Him from the dead, then you will be saved. For with the heart man believes unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation because whosoever will call upon the Name of the Lord shall be saved. And then he gets into his rhetorical monologue that's absolutely pointless if all are already saved about how shall they hear without a preacher and how shall they preach unless they are Sent?
Quote from: Seth on October 20, 2009, 09:52:02 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 20, 2009, 09:07:26 PM
Quote from: Seth on October 20, 2009, 08:37:56 PM
The main point of the thread is do athiests who have love know God. The answer is no.
My answer is.. not so sure.
Gonna play a bit with words to get my point across
To steal Sparrows words: God is love.
It's also written God wrote laws on hearts.
Surely atheists don't believe in God. That's the defenition of an atheist.
But we can't ignore the other two facts because of that human defenition.
The atheist knows what love is because he helped the people in Sparrows example.
God=love
The atheist knows what God is because he helped the people in Sparrows example.
As said a play with words; but hopefully a little insight how I (force?) fit the verses together.
It's an interesting play with words. But it needs to be reconciled to the scripture to see if it is consistent with the Gospel message. So when I post scriptures which clearly show that those who deny Christ also deny the Father like this: Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. 1 John 2:23
And
Romans 9:33
As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
and many more scriptures I have posted like that are the benchmark by which I will judge for myself the accuracy of your wordplay to the Gospel message.
I think I have to add that good works are
not a substitute for faith. I still stand by what I wrote earlier faith+works.
I'm a bit stuck at explaining. But I give it another try.
The laws written on your heart come from God.
Faith is inside your Spirit.
Both come from God.
But both have to be unlocked so to speak.
Faith need to grow and hearts need to be defrosted.
So I'm in no way (on purpose) ignoring 1 John 2:23 and Romans 9:33.
No I'm trying to align it with the verses where those with bad works (you didn't feed me when I was hungry etc) are judged.
I truely believe the Bible teaches both. But I have some trouble with 1 John 2:23.
Say a person is plain bad toward every human but believes very very sincerly.
How can that person 'have the Father' and still being 'punished' for teh lack of works.
I just believe the Bible teaches that Father does not accept selfish believers......
/EDIT added "does not"
Quote from: Seth on October 20, 2009, 09:54:12 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on October 20, 2009, 09:49:47 PM
Quote from: Seth on October 20, 2009, 07:38:39 PM
This really grieves me. I will not be returning to this conversation. I cannot believe we have gotten to a point where we aren't even teaching people that belief in Christ is even essential to the Gospel anymore. This is sad. I know I am practically a lone voice in this, but I know that NO MAN is justified before God without faith in the Son who died for the world and was raised three days later.
I know as an ETer, if I would have seen that version of UR, I would have stopped reading Gary's material and stayed with my old church.
:sigh:
Largely it is a misunderstanding.
I believe all are saved through Christ, but I also view "Christ" as the spiritual nature of Godly enablement.
Christ to the vast majority of believers is a word that you must make a choice to believe in. While it will be said that "Word" is the son of God, it actually is about the "word" and a religious expectation and it is not spiritual at all.
So if our salvation is spiritual, why are most religious people still steeped in traditional expectations of which Jesus was killed opposing?
Are you talking about "traditional expectaions" like:
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Jesus never opposed that one. He proclaimed it.
Of what manner did Helen Keller know God before she could even begin to communicate? What verse in the bible was quoted to her in order for her to understand God? She knew something before words were even known to her.
If you can understand that, you will be on your way to knowing what spirituality means.
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 20, 2009, 10:08:06 PM
I truely believe the Bible teaches both. But I have some trouble with 1 John 2:23.
Say a person is plain bad toward every human but believes very very sincerly.
How can that person 'have the Father' and still being 'punished' for teh lack of works.
I just believe the Bible teaches that Father accepts selfish believers......
What if you throw in James: without works, faith is dead. If a person is plain bad toward every human, but believes, does he believe sincerely? Or does he have dead faith? It is a sincere dead faith? Interesting questions.
Yet, James does say that faith alone does not save without works. So to reconcile with Paul: they are not speaking about "false bretheren" which Paul said he was beset with. They are talking about a faith by which obedience is both not an option and not separate.
As Jesus said: Why do you call me Lord, Lord and do not do what I say.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on October 20, 2009, 10:27:45 PM
Of what manner did Helen Keller know God before she could even begin to communicate? What verse in the bible was quoted to her in order for her to understand God? She knew something before words were even known to her.
If you can understand that, you will be on your way to knowing what spirituality means.
Thanks, Paul. I'll stick with the scripture. :thumbsup:
Quote from: Seth on October 20, 2009, 10:32:03 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 20, 2009, 10:08:06 PM
I truely believe the Bible teaches both. But I have some trouble with 1 John 2:23.
Say a person is plain bad toward every human but believes very very sincerly.
How can that person 'have the Father' and still being 'punished' for the lack of works.
I just believe the Bible teaches that Father does not accept selfish believers......
I added "does not". Perhaps obvious but to avoid misunderstanding I mention it.
QuoteWhat if you throw in James: without works, faith is dead. If a person is plain bad toward every human, but believes, does he believe sincerely? Or does he have dead faith? It is a sincere dead faith? Interesting questions.
That loops back to an earlier message where I stated the true Saint has faith
and good works.
Seems to align perfectly with the verse you quoted.
QuoteYet, James does say that faith alone does not save without works. So to reconcile with Paul: they are not speaking about "false bretheren" which Paul said he was beset with. They are talking about a faith by which obedience is both not an option and not separate.
As Jesus said: Why do you call me Lord, Lord and do not do what I say.
Again we agree.
But I still have problems with the statement that who knows Jesus has the Father because such people can have bad works. But perhaps I have a 'way out'
If someone does bad works s/he has
not found Jesus. Does
not truely believe in Jesus. Perhaps the person thinks s/he found Jesus but that not true. The person still is veiled. Or not truely saved as some call it.
It's a back and white package deal.
It may sound odd but perhaps the atheist in Sparrows example is just as close or even closer to God than the wannabe believer.
The believer has no believe and no works to be proud of. The atheist at least has good works to show for.
Of course I'm in no way trying to say teh Bible even in the slightest way promotes atheism...
Quote from: Seth on October 20, 2009, 10:49:54 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on October 20, 2009, 10:27:45 PM
Of what manner did Helen Keller know God before she could even begin to communicate? What verse in the bible was quoted to her in order for her to understand God? She knew something before words were even known to her.
If you can understand that, you will be on your way to knowing what spirituality means.
Thanks, Paul. I'll stick with the scripture. :thumbsup:
Well, Helen Keller knew God before she even knew what scripture was in our sighted and hearing perspective, so what about that?
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 20, 2009, 10:57:17 PM
The believer has no believe and no works to be proud of. The atheist at least has good works to show for.
Of course I'm in no way trying to say teh Bible even in the slightest way promotes atheism...
Well it goes back to what I said about what justifies us: works apart from from faith, faith apart from works, or faith and works. I think we agree it is the latter. That is why I was talking about "GOOD works" versus "our own works" which SEEM good to us.
God's ways are higher than man's ways. The best righteousness (which includes "love") that man has to muster up within himself is of no comparison to God's love which through Christ by faith in him.
I agree that atheists who love more than "false bretheren" are more prepared to receive him, but they still do not know Him. As Sparrow said, they will all bow and confess.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on October 20, 2009, 11:04:25 PM
Quote from: Seth on October 20, 2009, 10:49:54 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on October 20, 2009, 10:27:45 PM
Of what manner did Helen Keller know God before she could even begin to communicate? What verse in the bible was quoted to her in order for her to understand God? She knew something before words were even known to her.
If you can understand that, you will be on your way to knowing what spirituality means.
Thanks, Paul. I'll stick with the scripture. :thumbsup:
Well, Helen Keller knew God before she even knew what scripture was in our sighted and hearing perspective, so what about that?
These are all surmisings.
Quote from: Seth on October 20, 2009, 11:07:44 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on October 20, 2009, 11:04:25 PM
Quote from: Seth on October 20, 2009, 10:49:54 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on October 20, 2009, 10:27:45 PM
Of what manner did Helen Keller know God before she could even begin to communicate? What verse in the bible was quoted to her in order for her to understand God? She knew something before words were even known to her.
If you can understand that, you will be on your way to knowing what spirituality means.
Thanks, Paul. I'll stick with the scripture. :thumbsup:
Well, Helen Keller knew God before she even knew what scripture was in our sighted and hearing perspective, so what about that?
These are all surmisings.
Well, Helen Keller stated what she already knew once people were able to communicate with her. No one speculated about that.
Then you are more of an authority on Helen Keller than I am. I didn't know her, or her heart as much as you, but I do know what the scripture says about all this. :dontknow:
Quote from: Seth on October 20, 2009, 11:30:42 PM
Then you are more of an authority on Helen Keller than I am. I didn't know her, or her heart as much as you, but I do know what the scripture says about all this. :dontknow:
I'm not doubting the scripture, only how people apply it.
You do not have to be an authority on Helen Keller, simply explain how someone can confess Jesus Christ as their Saviour if they cannot communicate.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on October 20, 2009, 11:36:51 PM
Quote from: Seth on October 20, 2009, 11:30:42 PM
Then you are more of an authority on Helen Keller than I am. I didn't know her, or her heart as much as you, but I do know what the scripture says about all this. :dontknow:
I'm not doubting the scripture, only how people apply it.
You do not have to be an authority on Helen Keller, simply explain how someone can confess Jesus Christ as their Saviour if they cannot communicate.
Let me clarify, are you saying that if nonverbial communication, or even confession unto one's own heart, counts as "confess with their mouths" than it also means that nonbelief can also qualify as belief if people's works are good enough without faith? That would be a huge stretch.
Quote from: Seth on October 20, 2009, 11:40:42 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on October 20, 2009, 11:36:51 PM
Quote from: Seth on October 20, 2009, 11:30:42 PM
Then you are more of an authority on Helen Keller than I am. I didn't know her, or her heart as much as you, but I do know what the scripture says about all this. :dontknow:
I'm not doubting the scripture, only how people apply it.
You do not have to be an authority on Helen Keller, simply explain how someone can confess Jesus Christ as their Saviour if they cannot communicate.
Let me clarify, are you saying that if nonverbial communication, or even confession unto one's own heart, counts as "confess with their mouths" than it also means that nonbelief can also qualify as belief if people's works are good enough without faith? That would be a huge stretch.
You can be an unbeliever and say with your mouth the words written in scripture.
So I am asking you to explain your beliefs that seem to be pretty solid on the matter of the written word to explain how someone who cannot communicate can confess Jesus as their Saviour.
If people know what they say they know, it should not be that difficult to explain.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on October 20, 2009, 11:51:02 PM
So I am asking you to explain your beliefs that seem to be pretty solid on the matter of the written word to explain how someone who cannot communicate can confess Jesus as their Saviour.
I leave that up to God as to what he accepts as a confession that way. That is not for me to judge because there is no way I could. I can only say that both are part of the Gospel message, as you also agree. Therefore, I do not judge individual people in "what if" situations. I simply re-affirm the message of the Gospel, faith unto justification. It isn't a situation like ETers believe which is to say it's all about a technicality to get people into heaven. If God considers hearing the Word to be Him speaking directly into the mind of those who cannot hear, that is His judgment, and according to election, and it isn't about getting into heaven etc, but about a sincere belief in the only Lord God unto salvation from the carnal mind.
If people aren't even able to believe due to physical issues, well those issues will be healed in due time, but not through any other spiritual leader but the Lord Jesus.
QuoteYou can be an unbeliever and say with your mouth the words written in scripture.
Yes that is true. But you cannot "believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead" while also being an unbeliever. The two are mutually exclusive.
Quote from: Seth on October 21, 2009, 12:40:44 AM
It isn't a situation like ETers believe which is to say it's all about a technicality to get people into heaven.
Well, most peoples perspective is influenced by traditional Christianity whether they realize it or not. Unbelief is not what we think it may be.
An Atheist stating they hate God can be traced to a rejection of "Christianity" the vast majority of the time, not to the thought of there not being a God at all.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on October 21, 2009, 01:05:57 AM
Quote from: Seth on October 21, 2009, 12:40:44 AM
It isn't a situation like ETers believe which is to say it's all about a technicality to get people into heaven.
Well, most peoples perspective is influenced by traditional Christianity whether they realize it or not. Unbelief is not what we think it may be.
An Atheist stating they hate God can be traced to a rejection of "Christianity" the vast majority of the time, not to the thought of there not being a God at all.
I agree that atheists unbelief is sometimes founded on a past hurt. I actually know someone just like that. You said something interesting a couple posts back: "'I'm not doubting the scripture, only how people apply it."
Isn't that really the issue, how we apply it? A friend of mine who used to frequent this board once said to me "you and I know that people can make the Bible say whatever they want." That is really the issue, how we see the words and how we apply them. I think enough is written about what faith/belief/trust in Christ entails for me to know that an actual belief in Christ is not accounted for through good works, or nice feelings, but actually believing in the testimony God gave of Jesus Christ the Son.
But that's just me. That's how I apply it. I personally could reason it out to say the opposite with a clever tongue, but believe it would be wrong.
Quote from: Seth on October 20, 2009, 07:38:39 PM
This really grieves me. I will not be returning to this conversation. I cannot believe we have gotten to a point where we aren't even teaching people that belief in Christ is even essential to the Gospel anymore. This is sad. I know I am practically a lone voice in this, but I know that NO MAN is justified before God without faith in the Son who died for the world and was raised three days later.
I know as an ETer, if I would have seen that version of UR, I would have stopped reading Gary's material and stayed with my old church.
:sigh:
Seth, as I have said, repeatedly, my disagreement lies in the question of what it means to believe in Christ. Not whether that belief is necessary.
I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but it's kind of hurtful to be in a discussion and have the person to whom I'm talking not only misrepresent what I'm saying, but also imply that I don't trust scripture, and such like. I don't form beliefs or interpretations of scripture out of convenience, or out of what I want to be true; I form them based on what I've read and what makes sense to me. I don't believe because I think it's useful; I believe because I think it's true. I don't discuss my beliefs to antagonize, but rather to communicate, and elicit other points of view - if I instead clammed up and nodded my head, it might fool other humans, but it would not make me suddenly be in agreement in my heart. If the things that I say would have caused you not to abandon the doctrine of eternal torment, then I'm sorry to hear that, but at the same time that's not going to convince me to change what I believe.
Gab, I said before, that I didn't doubt your honesty right? I don't think you were antagonizing me either. I did not attribute bad motives to you....just as much as I am not trying to make some scriptures "win" over others.
I know your thoughts on what it means to believe in Jesus. I disagree with them. Just because your teaching would have led me to seriously doubt UR if it was embraced by the teachers I was reading from, doesn't mean that I think I was dependent on that on a deeper level. God led me as how he led me, as he does for all of us.
Again, that is not to question your sincerity.
Quote from: Seth on October 20, 2009, 07:38:39 PM
This really grieves me. I will not be returning to this conversation. I cannot believe we have gotten to a point where we aren't even teaching people that belief in Christ is even essential to the Gospel anymore. This is sad. I know I am practically a lone voice in this, but I know that NO MAN is justified before God without faith in the Son who died for the world and was raised three days later.
You're not a lone voice in this. I very much agree with your view on salvation. And I believe the Word, the Spirit, and the blood also bear witness. At some point, I just back out of an argument, because that's what it becomes - an argument.
Your POV mirrors the POV of Gary and Tentmaker Ministries, and I am happy that this ministry still believes an active, saving belief upon Jesus is necessary for salvation - per understanding as the scriptures describe, and as faith is given to believe.
-----
Is there anything new to say in this discussion that will be edifying?
Thanks, James.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on October 20, 2009, 11:36:51 PM
Quote from: Seth on October 20, 2009, 11:30:42 PM
Then you are more of an authority on Helen Keller than I am. I didn't know her, or her heart as much as you, but I do know what the scripture says about all this. :dontknow:
I'm not doubting the scripture, only how people apply it.
You do not have to be an authority on Helen Keller, simply explain how someone can confess Jesus Christ as their Saviour if they cannot communicate.
The heart has no secrets, I believe with the heart. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Seth on October 21, 2009, 01:14:03 AM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on October 21, 2009, 01:05:57 AM
Quote from: Seth on October 21, 2009, 12:40:44 AM
It isn't a situation like ETers believe which is to say it's all about a technicality to get people into heaven.
Well, most peoples perspective is influenced by traditional Christianity whether they realize it or not. Unbelief is not what we think it may be.
An Atheist stating they hate God can be traced to a rejection of "Christianity" the vast majority of the time, not to the thought of there not being a God at all.
I agree that atheists unbelief is sometimes founded on a past hurt. I actually know someone just like that. You said something interesting a couple posts back: "'I'm not doubting the scripture, only how people apply it."
Isn't that really the issue, how we apply it? A friend of mine who used to frequent this board once said to me "you and I know that people can make the Bible say whatever they want." That is really the issue, how we see the words and how we apply them. I think enough is written about what faith/belief/trust in Christ entails for me to know that an actual belief in Christ is not accounted for through good works, or nice feelings, but actually believing in the testimony God gave of Jesus Christ the Son.
But that's just me. That's how I apply it. I personally could reason it out to say the opposite with a clever tongue, but believe it would be wrong.
I'm not talking about believing whatever you want and just being a good person. I'm saying that thge Atheists belief often appears to be unbelief because what they reject is religion and not spirit.
Paul, that is a good point, which is why I don't judge people individually, only that I confirm the necessity for belief. So if Athiests believe even though it appears that they don't, ok. But I also confirm the necessity for confession in whatever way God accepts, which is certainly confession with the mouth among the able-bodied.
Jabcat, amen brother :HeartThrob: :thumbsup:
Just wanted to clarify one point. What I believe Paul is saying about confession is not like a sinner's prayer technicality. I think what he means by confession is that we don't hide our belief in Christ among those who would challenge us on it (like pre-converted Peter). I think that was the major issue of the day back then was persecution among Jews and Romans. And Paul knew that the persecution was a parallel to Christ's walk and would conform the faithful to Christ as they continued to believe and confess. That is why I believe he was saying belief and confession leads to salvation, if we are talking about salvation from sin.