Do More People Know God Than Most People Think?

[Seth]

The believer has no believe and no works to be proud of. The atheist at least has good works to show for.
Of course I'm in no way trying to say teh Bible even in the slightest way promotes atheism...

Well it goes back to what I said about what justifies us: works apart from from faith, faith apart from works, or faith and works. I think we agree it is the latter. That is why I was talking about "GOOD works" versus "our own works" which SEEM good to us.

God's ways are higher than man's ways. The best righteousness (which includes "love") that man has to muster up within himself is of no comparison to God's love which through Christ by faith in him.

I agree that atheists who love more than "false bretheren" are more prepared to receive him, but they still do not know Him. As Sparrow said, they will all bow and confess.

[Seth]

Of what manner did Helen Keller know God before she could even begin to communicate?  What verse in the bible was quoted to her in order for her to understand God?   She knew something before words were even known to her.

If you can understand that, you will be on your way to knowing what spirituality means.

Thanks, Paul. I'll stick with the scripture.  :thumbsup:

Well, Helen Keller knew God before she even knew what scripture was in our sighted and hearing perspective,  so what about that?

These are all surmisings.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Of what manner did Helen Keller know God before she could even begin to communicate?  What verse in the bible was quoted to her in order for her to understand God?   She knew something before words were even known to her.

If you can understand that, you will be on your way to knowing what spirituality means.

Thanks, Paul. I'll stick with the scripture.  :thumbsup:

Well, Helen Keller knew God before she even knew what scripture was in our sighted and hearing perspective,  so what about that?

These are all surmisings.

Well, Helen Keller stated what she already knew once people were able to communicate with her.   No one speculated about that.

   

[Seth]

Then you are more of an authority on Helen Keller than I am. I didn't know her, or her heart as much as you, but I do know what the scripture says about all this.  :dontknow:

[Paul Hazelwood]

Then you are more of an authority on Helen Keller than I am. I didn't know her, or her heart as much as you, but I do know what the scripture says about all this.  :dontknow:

I'm not doubting the scripture, only how people apply it.

You do not have to be an authority on Helen Keller, simply explain how someone can confess Jesus Christ as their Saviour if they cannot communicate.

[Seth]

Then you are more of an authority on Helen Keller than I am. I didn't know her, or her heart as much as you, but I do know what the scripture says about all this.  :dontknow:

I'm not doubting the scripture, only how people apply it.

You do not have to be an authority on Helen Keller, simply explain how someone can confess Jesus Christ as their Saviour if they cannot communicate.

Let me clarify, are you saying that if nonverbial communication, or even confession unto one's own heart, counts as "confess with their mouths" than it also means that nonbelief can also qualify as belief if people's works are good enough without faith? That would be a huge stretch.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Then you are more of an authority on Helen Keller than I am. I didn't know her, or her heart as much as you, but I do know what the scripture says about all this.  :dontknow:

I'm not doubting the scripture, only how people apply it.

You do not have to be an authority on Helen Keller, simply explain how someone can confess Jesus Christ as their Saviour if they cannot communicate.

Let me clarify, are you saying that if nonverbial communication, or even confession unto one's own heart, counts as "confess with their mouths" than it also means that nonbelief can also qualify as belief if people's works are good enough without faith? That would be a huge stretch.

You can be an unbeliever and say with your mouth the words written in scripture. 

So I am asking you to explain your beliefs that seem to be pretty solid on the matter of the written word to explain how someone who cannot communicate can confess Jesus as their Saviour. 

If people know what they say they know, it should not be that difficult to explain.

[Seth]

So I am asking you to explain your beliefs that seem to be pretty solid on the matter of the written word to explain how someone who cannot communicate can confess Jesus as their Saviour. 

I leave that up to God as to what he accepts as a confession that way. That is not for me to judge because there is no way I could. I can only say that both are part of the Gospel message, as you also agree. Therefore, I do not judge individual people in "what if" situations. I simply re-affirm the message of the Gospel, faith unto justification. It isn't a situation like ETers believe which is to say it's all about a technicality to get people into heaven. If God considers hearing the Word to be Him speaking directly into the mind of those who cannot hear, that is His judgment, and according to election, and it isn't about getting into heaven etc, but about a sincere belief in the only Lord God unto salvation from the carnal mind.

If people aren't even able to believe due to physical issues, well those issues will be healed in due time, but not through any other spiritual leader but the Lord Jesus.

You can be an unbeliever and say with your mouth the words written in scripture.

Yes that is true. But you cannot "believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead" while also being an unbeliever. The two are mutually exclusive.

[Paul Hazelwood]

It isn't a situation like ETers believe which is to say it's all about a technicality to get people into heaven.

Well, most peoples perspective is influenced by traditional Christianity whether they realize it or not.  Unbelief is not what we think it may be.

An Atheist stating they hate God can be traced to a rejection of "Christianity" the vast majority of the time,  not to the thought of there not being a God at all.

[Seth]

It isn't a situation like ETers believe which is to say it's all about a technicality to get people into heaven.

Well, most peoples perspective is influenced by traditional Christianity whether they realize it or not.  Unbelief is not what we think it may be.

An Atheist stating they hate God can be traced to a rejection of "Christianity" the vast majority of the time,  not to the thought of there not being a God at all.

I agree that atheists unbelief is sometimes founded on a past hurt. I actually know someone just like that. You said something interesting a couple posts back: "'I'm not doubting the scripture, only how people apply it."

Isn't that really the issue, how we apply it? A friend of mine who used to frequent this board once said to me "you and I know that people can make the Bible say whatever they want." That is really the issue, how we see the words and how we apply them. I think enough is written about what faith/belief/trust in Christ entails for me to know that an actual belief in Christ is not accounted for through good works, or nice feelings, but actually believing in the testimony God gave of Jesus Christ the Son.

But that's just me. That's how I apply it. I personally could reason it out to say the opposite with a clever tongue, but believe it would be wrong.

[Gab]

This really grieves me. I will not be returning to this conversation. I cannot believe we have gotten to a point where we aren't even teaching people that belief in Christ is even essential to the Gospel anymore. This is sad. I know I am practically a lone voice in this, but I know that NO MAN is justified before God without faith in the Son who died for the world and was raised three days later.

I know as an ETer, if I would have seen that version of UR, I would have stopped reading Gary's material and stayed with my old church.

:sigh:

Seth, as I have said, repeatedly, my disagreement lies in the question of what it means to believe in Christ.  Not whether that belief is necessary.

I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but it's kind of hurtful to be in a discussion and have the person to whom I'm talking not only misrepresent what I'm saying, but also imply that I don't trust scripture, and such like.  I don't form beliefs or interpretations of scripture out of convenience, or out of what I want to be true; I form them based on what I've read and what makes sense to me.  I don't believe because I think it's useful; I believe because I think it's true.  I don't discuss my beliefs to antagonize, but rather to communicate, and elicit other points of view - if I instead clammed up and nodded my head, it might fool other humans, but it would not make me suddenly be in agreement in my heart.  If the things that I say would have caused you not to abandon the doctrine of eternal torment, then I'm sorry to hear that, but at the same time that's not going to convince me to change what I believe.

[Seth]

Gab, I said before, that I didn't doubt your honesty right? I don't think you were antagonizing me either. I did not attribute bad motives to you....just as much as I am not trying to make some scriptures "win" over others.

I know your thoughts on what it means to believe in Jesus. I disagree with them. Just because your teaching would have led me to seriously doubt UR if it was embraced by the teachers I was reading from, doesn't mean that I think I was dependent on that on a deeper level. God led me as how he led me, as he does for all of us.

Again, that is not to question your sincerity.

[jabcat]

This really grieves me. I will not be returning to this conversation. I cannot believe we have gotten to a point where we aren't even teaching people that belief in Christ is even essential to the Gospel anymore. This is sad. I know I am practically a lone voice in this, but I know that NO MAN is justified before God without faith in the Son who died for the world and was raised three days later.

You're not a lone voice in this.  I very much agree with your view on salvation.  And I believe the Word, the Spirit, and the blood also bear witness.  At some point, I just back out of an argument, because that's what it becomes - an argument.

Your POV mirrors the POV of Gary and Tentmaker Ministries, and I am happy that this ministry still believes an active, saving belief upon Jesus is necessary for salvation - per understanding as the scriptures describe, and as faith is given to believe. 

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Is there anything new to say in this discussion that will be edifying?

Thanks, James.     

[SQ]

Then you are more of an authority on Helen Keller than I am. I didn't know her, or her heart as much as you, but I do know what the scripture says about all this.  :dontknow:

I'm not doubting the scripture, only how people apply it.

You do not have to be an authority on Helen Keller, simply explain how someone can confess Jesus Christ as their Saviour if they cannot communicate.

The heart has no secrets, I believe with the heart. :HeartThrob:

[Paul Hazelwood]

It isn't a situation like ETers believe which is to say it's all about a technicality to get people into heaven.

Well, most peoples perspective is influenced by traditional Christianity whether they realize it or not.  Unbelief is not what we think it may be.

An Atheist stating they hate God can be traced to a rejection of "Christianity" the vast majority of the time,  not to the thought of there not being a God at all.

I agree that atheists unbelief is sometimes founded on a past hurt. I actually know someone just like that. You said something interesting a couple posts back: "'I'm not doubting the scripture, only how people apply it."

Isn't that really the issue, how we apply it? A friend of mine who used to frequent this board once said to me "you and I know that people can make the Bible say whatever they want." That is really the issue, how we see the words and how we apply them. I think enough is written about what faith/belief/trust in Christ entails for me to know that an actual belief in Christ is not accounted for through good works, or nice feelings, but actually believing in the testimony God gave of Jesus Christ the Son.

But that's just me. That's how I apply it. I personally could reason it out to say the opposite with a clever tongue, but believe it would be wrong.

I'm not talking about believing whatever you want and just being a good person.  I'm saying that thge Atheists belief often appears to be unbelief because what they reject is religion and not spirit.

[Seth]

Paul, that is a good point, which is why I don't judge people individually, only that I confirm the necessity for belief. So if Athiests believe even though it appears that they don't, ok. But I also confirm the necessity for confession in whatever way God accepts, which is certainly confession with the mouth among the able-bodied.

Jabcat, amen brother  :HeartThrob: :thumbsup:

[Seth]

Just wanted to clarify one point. What I believe Paul is saying about confession is not like a sinner's prayer technicality. I think what he means by confession is that we don't hide our belief in Christ among those who would challenge us on it (like pre-converted Peter). I think that was the major issue of the day back then was persecution among Jews and Romans. And Paul knew that the persecution was a parallel to Christ's walk and would conform the faithful to Christ as they continued to believe and confess. That is why I believe he was saying belief and confession leads to salvation, if we are talking about salvation from sin.