Do More People Know God Than Most People Think?

[WhiteWings]

Good works does not make faith.
Faith does make good works.

I think the true sign of a saint is that the person believes and does good works.

[Seth]

Good works does not make faith.
Faith does make good works.

I think the true sign of a saint is that the person believes and does good works.

That's as clear as a diamond.  :thumbsup:


Amen.

[Gab]

Just a question. Do works come from faith, or are works good enough to cover unbelief? Does God consider the faithless to be faithful if they have works?

In other words is OUR OWN love and OUR OWN works of love good enough to cover the sin of unbelief?

So much for righteous by faith. I guess under this system we would not need to tell anyone about Christ. They already believe if we perceive them to be loving enough right, even if they never heard?

Romans 10:13-15
for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"

This becomes a moot scripture if their own love and their own good works can substitute for "the hearing of faith."

Galatians 3:5
He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Yet another moot scripture.

1 John 5:10
He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

So those who do hear the message and reject it, do NOT make God a liar? And those who have their own love and their own works still has the witness in himself that Jesus is the Son of God, so that they believe without believing?

I think that the biggest implicit assertion that you seem to be making here which I disagree with is that love is effectively a work apart from faith.  I do not believe that that is the case.  As I have noted elsewhere, the sense of the Greek word for "believe" as applied to Jesus does not refer to factual belief, but rather the sincere belief one might have in one's spiritual leader.  Love is not a work, but rather love is the basis from which works may come.  And just as we are told that anyone who loves knows God and has been born of God, so too do I not believe that one who truly loves is acting outside of God.

The bottom line is that I do not believe that there is "our" love and then "Godly" love; I believe that there is only love and non-love.  Love is from God, because God is love, whereas non-love is not.  And I believe that anyone who truly loves does believe in Jesus, whether or not they intellectually know it.  This is the only way I can find to reconcile the verses regarding belief in Jesus with the verses speaking of love and goodwill that sits well enough with me - the statements that that love and goodwill is simply a manifestation of pre-formed belief in Jesus just does not work for me.

[jabcat]

Good works does not make faith.
Faith does make good works.

I think the true sign of a saint is that the person believes and does good works.

:2thumbs:

I guess, technically, I'd have to agree that any true love must in itself originate from God.  Love is certainly involved in salvation ("no greater love..."), and then a big evidence of having been given the faith to believe in and call on the name of Jesus.

Reminded me of the following from Thomas Kissinger:

"Eph. 2:10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

I remember when this verse became alive to me and I was able to understand what was being said. It was so liberating and refreshing to know that GOD was the One responsible to work on me, in me, and through me to make me in His image.

You see...we are really able to do nothing for God in and of ourselves. Many people think they are "doing a work for God", as though they are "helping God out". In essence, GOD IS DOING A WORK FOR US! He is doing something in and through us that we are not capable of doing, and it is this: We are being created in Christ Jesus unto good works!

Left up to ourselves we can do nothing but walk and live in the flesh and constantly come short of the glory of God. This is why Jesus said...

John 15:4-5

4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." - Thomas Kissinger

:HeartThrob:

[HartleyDamboiseII]

original Question, Oh most assuredly

even a tribe in some far off island that has never seen an outsider can know Love / God

Lee Damboise II 

[jabcat]

Besides the reference of "God in nature" that is often taken out of context, what's the scriptural proof for that (if you're speaking in terms of being saved);  that faithfully incorporates all the scriptures about the name of Jesus, hearing, believing, calling on Him?

I think Paul often talked of strangers, and those without hope and without God in this world.  I would also state that I believe knowing about God and "loving" some conceptualization of a supreme being is different than knowing God as a Father and the Father of the Son, our Savior.   I believe the latter comes only from spiritual rebirth.

[HartleyDamboiseII]

Every thing has a beginning, and ALL THINGS ARE out of God...

Lee

[jabcat]

I do agree with that  :thumbsup:.  (Except for God having a beginning.)   But THAT's another story!  :bigGrin:)

[jesushandsarekindhands]

Just a question. Do works come from faith, or are works good enough to cover unbelief? Does God consider the faithless to be faithful if they have works?

In other words is OUR OWN love and OUR OWN works of love good enough to cover the sin of unbelief?

So much for righteous by faith. I guess under this system we would not need to tell anyone about Christ. They already believe if we perceive them to be loving enough right, even if they never heard?

Romans 10:13-15
for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"

This becomes a moot scripture if their own love and their own good works can substitute for "the hearing of faith."

Galatians 3:5
He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Yet another moot scripture.

1 John 5:10
He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

So those who do hear the message and reject it, do NOT make God a liar? And those who have their own love and their own works still has the witness in himself that Jesus is the Son of God, so that they believe without believing?

I think that the biggest implicit assertion that you seem to be making here which I disagree with is that love is effectively a work apart from faith.  I do not believe that that is the case.  As I have noted elsewhere, the sense of the Greek word for "believe" as applied to Jesus does not refer to factual belief, but rather the sincere belief one might have in one's spiritual leader.  Love is not a work, but rather love is the basis from which works may come.  And just as we are told that anyone who loves knows God and has been born of God, so too do I not believe that one who truly loves is acting outside of God.

The bottom line is that I do not believe that there is "our" love and then "Godly" love; I believe that there is only love and non-love.  Love is from God, because God is love, whereas non-love is not.  And I believe that anyone who truly loves does believe in Jesus, whether or not they intellectually know it.  This is the only way I can find to reconcile the verses regarding belief in Jesus with the verses speaking of love and goodwill that sits well enough with me - the statements that that love and goodwill is simply a manifestation of pre-formed belief in Jesus just does not work for me.

Gab i agree, i think anyone who truly loves will 'know' that they are still a long way from perfection and rely on God to save them, heathen or otherwise, they will 'know' within them their need for a saviour and they're hearts will cry out for that.  I also believe that anyone who loves much and knows about Jesus would understand Jesus and come to him.

[Gab]

Besides the reference of "God in nature" that is often taken out of context, what's the scriptural proof for that (if you're speaking in terms of being saved);  that faithfully incorporates all the scriptures about the name of Jesus, hearing, believing, calling on Him?

I think Paul often talked of strangers, and those without hope and without God in this world.  I would also state that I believe knowing about God and "loving" some conceptualization of a supreme being is different than knowing God as a Father and the Father of the Son, our Savior.   I believe the latter comes only from spiritual rebirth.

But the thing, again, is that the passage in 1 John 4 doesn't say that one knows about God, but rather that one knows God.  The Greek word there for "know" is ginoskei, which means "to come to know; to receive knowledge of; to understand; to perceive".  It is used in other verses such as these:

"Now while he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many people saw the miraculous signs he was doing and believed in his name. But Jesus would not entrust himself to them, for he knew (ginoskein) all men. He did not need man's testimony about man, for he knew (eginosken) what was in a man." (John 2:23-25)

"If God were your Father, you would love me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on my own initiative, but he sent me.  Why do you not understand (ginoskete) what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear my word." (John 8:42-43)

"I am the good shepherd; I know (ginosko) my sheep and my sheep know me (ginoskomai) — just as the Father knows (ginoskei) me and I know (ginosko) the Father — and I lay down my life for the sheep." (John 10:14-15)

"Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized (ginosketai) by its fruit." (Matthew 12:33)

And then in 1 John:

"Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows (ginoskei) God." (1 John 4:7)

It seems pretty clear to me that the word does not simply refer to knowing about something, in the sense of, "Oh, yeah, I heard about that," but rather is speaking of true knowledge and understanding of the item or entity being described - it is the same sort of knowledge that the Father and Jesus are plainly said to have.

[jabcat]

The verse being used in I John regarding "those that love know God", is of course very true.  The other night there was some discussion about the order of the words, i.e., that it doesn't say if you know God, then you'll love, but the other way around.  Interesting to look at the whole context of the passage.  I believe when doing so, it does become more clear that the former is the case - that love is a manifestation of knowing God.  Not only because I believe that is consistent with the rest of the Gospel, but reading on down in the passage there's this - 15God abides in those who confess that Jesus is the Son of God, and they abide in God. 16So we have known and believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and those who abide in love abide in God, and God abides in them.  So I believe the context is important here.

[jabcat]

It seems pretty clear to me that the word does not simply refer to knowing about something, in the sense of, "Oh, yeah, I heard about that," but rather is speaking of true knowledge and understanding of the item or entity being described - it is the same sort of knowledge that the Father and Jesus are plainly said to have.

Hi Gab.  Absolutely, I agree and have stated, it's not just about knowledge.  At its most basic level, I believe knowledge is involved, but it's knowledge of Who to then call upon, Who to look to for our salvation. Because "there's no other Name under heaven whereby men must be saved".  So IMO, knowledge, love, faith, belief, and trust all go together, not separate from each other.  And then manifestations come out of the spiritual rebirth.  God gives faith to believe (Eph. 2:8), and "without faith it is impossible to please God" (Hebrews 11:6).

Paul said in Acts that at one time God winked at ignorance, but now He is commanding "all men everywhere to repent...he hath appointed a day in which he will judge the world in righteousness by the man whom he hath ordained."  God has introduced His Son to us - by name.  It's no longer a mystery.

James.

[Seth]

Just a question. Do works come from faith, or are works good enough to cover unbelief? Does God consider the faithless to be faithful if they have works?

In other words is OUR OWN love and OUR OWN works of love good enough to cover the sin of unbelief?

So much for righteous by faith. I guess under this system we would not need to tell anyone about Christ. They already believe if we perceive them to be loving enough right, even if they never heard?

Romans 10:13-15
for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"

This becomes a moot scripture if their own love and their own good works can substitute for "the hearing of faith."

Galatians 3:5
He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Yet another moot scripture.

1 John 5:10
He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

So those who do hear the message and reject it, do NOT make God a liar? And those who have their own love and their own works still has the witness in himself that Jesus is the Son of God, so that they believe without believing?

I think that the biggest implicit assertion that you seem to be making here which I disagree with is that love is effectively a work apart from faith.  I do not believe that that is the case.  As I have noted elsewhere, the sense of the Greek word for "believe" as applied to Jesus does not refer to factual belief, but rather the sincere belief one might have in one's spiritual leader. 

I disagree. Christ is the only spiritual leader. Therefore, since nobody goes to the Father but through Him, there is no other spiritual leader who gives aionios life. Aionios life is to know God and the Son, and to not have the Son is to not have the Father.

The bottom line is that I do not believe that there is "our" love and then "Godly" love; I believe that there is only love and non-love. 

You are free to believe what you like, but the scripture is clear: there is a difference between OUR righteousness and the righteousness of God.

[Seth]

It seems pretty clear to me that the word does not simply refer to knowing about something, in the sense of, "Oh, yeah, I heard about that," but rather is speaking of true knowledge and understanding of the item or entity being described - it is the same sort of knowledge that the Father and Jesus are plainly said to have.

Hi Gab.  Absolutely, I agree and have stated, it's not just about knowledge.  At its most basic level, I believe knowledge is involved, but it's knowledge of Who to then call upon, Who to look to for our salvation. Because "there's no other Name under heaven whereby men must be saved".  So IMO, knowledge, love, faith, belief, and trust all go together, not separate from each other.  And then manifestations come out of the spiritual rebirth.  God gives faith to believe (Eph. 2:8), and "without faith it is impossible to please God" (Hebrews 11:6).

Paul said in Acts that at one time God winked at ignorance, but now He is commanding "all men everywhere to repent...he hath appointed a day in which he will judge the world in righteousness by the man whom he hath ordained."  God has introduced His Son to us - by name.  It's no longer a mystery.

James.

Amen, James  :thumbsup:

It was not in vain that Paul said:

Romans 10:13-15
for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"

[whyiloveitaly.com]

You are free to believe what you like, but the scripture is clear: there is a difference between OUR righteousness and the righteousness of God.

Acts 10:35---"in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him." Salvation by works? Kinda' sounds like it..

However, let's not confuse love with righteousness. No-one is "righteous" as God requires it. It's a gift we have all been given.

[Seth]

You are free to believe what you like, but the scripture is clear: there is a difference between OUR righteousness and the righteousness of God.

Acts 10:35---"in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him." Salvation by works? Kinda' sounds like it..

However, let's not confuse love with righteousness. No-one is "righteous" as God requires it. It's a gift we have all been given.

Love IS righteous. It's not salvation BY works, it is salvation FROM evil works (like racism, murder rape) into good works (like love).

Since nobody is righteous as God requires it, God gives the Holy Spirit which is the impartation of the Divine Nature so that he gives his righteousness to the world THROUGH us.

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

[Molly]

You are free to believe what you like, but the scripture is clear: there is a difference between OUR righteousness and the righteousness of God.

This is true, sadly enough.


Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

[Seth]

You are free to believe what you like, but the scripture is clear: there is a difference between OUR righteousness and the righteousness of God.

This is true, sadly enough.


Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Yes, that is why our Lord is so important to us.  :HeartThrob:

[Redlettervoice]

While we are coming "to" Christ, to being IN Christ,
it is the working of the law that brings us there.  While
under the law, there we have our OWN righteousness.
Not to say there are not rewards for "believing" in this
realm.....but this is not "salvation."  For it is OUR works
and the law came by MOSES but

Grace and Truth by Jesus Christ

This is where "salvation" comes from

Oh that I may be found in HIM, not not not having
my own righteousness.......which is of the law......

WE wait for the hope of righteousness.......
His.

I don't know what is so hard to understand about that.

[Seth]

It confirms for me that any works apart from faith in Jesus Christ (since the law is not of faith) are unacceptable, which is why the Bible says "Without faith it is impossible to please Him."

As long as I speak the Gospel it will be a Christ-centric one whereby belief in Christ, being the the only One by which any man may go to the Father is a foundation.

[Gab]

I disagree. Christ is the only spiritual leader. Therefore, since nobody goes to the Father but through Him, there is no other spiritual leader who gives aionios life. Aionios life is to know God and the Son, and to not have the Son is to not have the Father.

Then why are we told that anyone who loves knows God?  The Greek word translated into "know" in John 17:3 (which is the verse to which you refer) is ginosko once again - the same as in 1 John 4.  And we are told by Jesus:

"Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him." (John 14:21)

I mean no offense by this, but it really seems as though you're trying to make one verse "win", in a sense, against the other, which just doesn't work - an interpretation has to account for every verse, which I have attempted to do above.  As I said, from my reading of it, one who loves is one who does have faith - not intellectual faith known to the brain, but emotional faith known to the heart.  The love of God resides in the heart, not the brain.

If the Pharisees can "honor (God) with their lips" while "their hearts are far from (him)" (Matthew 15:8), then it seems to me that we can surely separate the two, which opens for me the very real possibility of the reverse: one may not honor God with their lips, but one's heart may be close to him.

You are free to believe what you like, but the scripture is clear: there is a difference between OUR righteousness and the righteousness of God.

I'm speaking of love.  What is the scriptural basis for the idea that passages such as 1 John 4:7-18 and 1 Corinthians 13 are speaking of a separate love attainable only through the intellectual belief that Jesus is the son of God?  Honest question.

[whyiloveitaly.com]

Seth (and others):
Please forgive me if I offended you for what you believe in. I don't want you to take my posts the wrong way.
I very much agree with the divine nature aspect.
Personally, I prefer to have the works AND faith rather than just faith. I think works are necessary to salvation, and I believe that God will find fault with me if I don't do them. Besides, since I got saved in 1990 I can't really distinguish between my righteousness and God's righteousness, so I'm happy to do the works too! That's just my stance on things, and it may be that the Lord will have to correct me on that. I'm ready for that.

Anyway, that's just where I'm at today, and it's not like you have to believe the same things I do. Everybody is different, and that's part of God's plan, too!

Love to all,
Brian

[jesushandsarekindhands]

Seth (and others):
Please forgive me if I offended you for what you believe in. I don't want you to take my posts the wrong way.
I very much agree with the divine nature aspect.
Personally, I prefer to have the works AND faith rather than just faith. I think works are necessary to salvation, and I believe that God will find fault with me if I don't do them. Besides, since I got saved in 1990 I can't really distinguish between my righteousness and God's righteousness, so I'm happy to do the works too! That's just my stance on things, and it may be that the Lord will have to correct me on that. I'm ready for that.

Anyway, that's just where I'm at today, and it's not like you have to believe the same things I do. Everybody is different, and that's part of God's plan, too!

Love to all,
Brian

I agree.

John 14:15
"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

Matthew 12:50 >>
For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."

I believe in God to save me and realize that no matter how many good works i do they will be 'filthy rag's', but surely God is worth the effort to at least try and please him?  And surely our 'good works' attract others.

Matthew 5:16 >>
In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.

[Seth]

I disagree. Christ is the only spiritual leader. Therefore, since nobody goes to the Father but through Him, there is no other spiritual leader who gives aionios life. Aionios life is to know God and the Son, and to not have the Son is to not have the Father.

Then why are we told that anyone who loves knows God?  The Greek word translated into "know" in John 17:3 (which is the verse to which you refer) is ginosko once again - the same as in 1 John 4.  And we are told by Jesus:

"Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him." (John 14:21)

I mean no offense by this, but it really seems as though you're trying to make one verse "win", in a sense, against the other, which just doesn't work.

I think I am doing the opposite. I am considering ALL scriptures that teach a belief and faith in Jesus Christ the Son of God as the foundation for righteousness of God not righteousness that comes from a lack of faith in Christ, which isn't righteousness at all.

I'm speaking of love.  What is the scriptural basis for the idea that passages such as 1 John 4:7-18 and 1 Corinthians 13 are speaking of a separate love attainable only through the intellectual belief that Jesus is the son of God?  Honest question.

I don't doubt your honesty. The scriptural basis is what I have already provided in this thread. And it isn't about intellectualism, but the faith of Christ, crying "Abba, Father" within us. It isn't our own faith. However, it is not faith in other "spiritual leaders" either.

[sparrow]

Also referring to the fact that man cannot work his way into salvation by doing good works, I am going to say that "filthy rags" also refers to those things not done in love. I'm going to stand on a limb here and say I don't think God would call something being done in love, from the heart a "filthy rag". What is Jesus 2nd command? To love our neighbor as ourself.

There are things that are done, good works that are done, but the person doing them has a different idea in their heart, it is not done out of "love", but out of some sort of selfish gain for theirself. Look at it this way... Let's take two people:

A. a person who believes in God, yet thinks that if he does good works, his "mansion in heaven" will be just a little bigger if he goes out and volunteers in a soup kitchen. He doesn't like doing it. It's a drag. He goes in and puts in his time, talks to people about God, etc. Tells others how he volunteers at soup kitchens, and acts all pious. All along, in his heart, he is not really doing it for the poor people that are in need, he's doing it because he thinks this will get him "more stuff" in heaven.

and

B. a person who maybe doesn't even necessarily believe in God, but sees the need of others, sees people hurting and goes in and from the love in their heart (All love is from one source: God), has mercy on these people and helps them.

Which is the filthy rags? I think it's pretty plain.


This is why I say there will be some christians who die who will not recognize Jesus when they encounter Him. And there will be some atheists/people of other religions who die who will recognize Jesus right away.

God is love.
Every knee will bow.

"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you:"

What is God's name?
Love.

Are these "good works" REALLY done "in thy name"... are they really done in love?
I think this is what God wants us to search in our hearts.
God wants our hearts to be filled with HIM.



p.s. I had a dream about God's name being "love" I was discussing with an ET believer and she was upset, screaming at me, so I backed off a bit not wanting to get her upset, and she yelling that I didn't know God, and she was goading me "What's God's name???!!! What's God's name, huh??!!" and I told her God's name was "Love". Then she left. I went and sat down on the floor next to the couch and kind of sighed. Then a man who was sitting on the couch kind of put his hand on me and said something encouraging to me. I don't remember what he said. I wrote it down, but can't remember now.



Well, just some thoughts.