If those that endure till the end are saved...

[Zeek]

:cloud9: Hi Esther.....yes Zeek is an active member still. He's been posting this week, as a matter of fact. Be blessed.........

yep i'm here.

HI. 

[sheila]

   there is only one thing that endures[never fails] LOVE

   and we have had Love defined to us as God is a spirit.

   There is no life without love...God put part of Himself in all

  human beings[Adam] Sin entered/corrupted Adam made in the

image of God bringing death[image of the corruptible all

humans bear]  I will not give my Glory to another.good evil mix


   The secound Adam became a life-giving spirit[love quickened]

  and so shall we also all bear the image of the incorruptible

[love] The firstborn from the dead and begotton of God..

   the perfect/TOL/immortal


  He tells us the image that is corrupt..that perishes..and the

  dust shall return to the earth from wence it came[corruptible

image NOT given His Glory] And the Son of God in HIS IMAGE

incorruptible immortal- the SPIRIT WILL RETURN UNTO GOD

WHO GAVE IT.[to heaven...'I am returning to My Father and

Your Father"

   So what will endure is the spirit son and/or daughter of God

and what will perish is the corruptible image.

   
   This is for all humans to expierance...those born from below

are born of the corrupt seed and spirit of wickedness[tares]

and have spirit of God put to death in them/good and evil mix

[unless a grain of wheat /good,fall to the earth and die..it

cannot bear fruit unto heaven[be perfected]


   those born from above are wheat that is the seed of God

   the good and perfect


   Jesus told us in the parable that the field had been sown by

an enemy...and told us what was to take place.[the field is

each of our bodies sown with sin/tares AND WHEAT.[good/evil]


   This is also shown as the good/evil mix  or TOKOGAE

  that leads to death.


  Life giving spirit[last Adam]  is the TOL.


   I AM the First[Adam son of God born from below] and

  the Last [ last Adam became a life-giving spirit/only begotton

of the Father/born from above] We all must be born again from

above[and in the last days I will pour out my spirit on all flesh]


      the sin in our flesh is the adversary that resists the will of

God. it is the seed of the man-killer and accusor. It is a spirit

that is the direct OPPOSITE of what God is[Love]. It eats dust

all the days of it's life[spirit seed of the serpent]


  the spirit seed of the serpent is also revealed in the parable of

the rich man and Lazarus[weeds are hardy and suck up

nutrients in the soil..often to the detriment of desired crops

sown/thus they are 'rich' in this world as far as their ability to

thrive and often make the wheat/Lazurus of poor yeild...


   The Good and PERFECT will endure and be saved

    my  :2c:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Amen, Sheila.......

[Gab]

Sorry...another quick thought:

When scripture says that God will have all men saved...is this not God's perfect will? Does God not have 2 wills? His perfect will AND his permissive will?

Esther:)

I don't know if this is abusing Scripture, but that brings this verse to mind:

"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other." (Matthew 6:24)

If God has two wills that are in conflict with each other, then how in the world can he be an unchanging entity whose will is absolute?  How does he serve, in a sense, two masters that are in opposition to one another?  And how can it be the case that God's will be done if there are two mutually exclusive wills?

[peteresther]

I don't know if this is abusing Scripture, but that brings this verse to mind:

"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other." (Matthew 6:24)

If God has two wills that are in conflict with each other, then how in the world can he be an unchanging entity whose will is absolute?  How does he serve, in a sense, two masters that are in opposition to one another?  And how can it be the case that God's will be done if there are two mutually exclusive wills?

Hi Gab,

I don't know...the way I see it is that there is such a thing as God's perfect will and his permissive will...

If a man dies from alcohol poisoning, and his wife reckons that this was God's will for her husband, surely this is not so? God's perfect will for her husband could have been for him to have remained healthy and had fullness of years...instead, because of his choices, God permitted his death?

When scripture tells us that Satan has come to kill and to rob and to destroy, and straight after that, that Jesus has come so that we can have life, and life more abundantly...this is God's perfect will, but not all Christians do have life more abundantly in every sense of the word. They still get robbed, killed and destroyed...(God's permissive will.)

In other words, God has a perfect plan (perfect will) for a person, but if the person does not co-operate with the plan, or for whatever reason this plan does not come to fruition,  then God allows (permissive will) another plan...

Esther:)

[WhiteWings]

Esther,

When scripture tells us that Satan has come to kill and to rob and to destroy, and straight after that, that Jesus has come so that we can have life,

In other words, God has a perfect plan (perfect will) for a person, but if the person does not co-operate with the plan, or for whatever reason this plan does not come to fruition,  then God allows (permissive will) another plan...

So satan is more powerful than God? God had a perfect plan for than man to live a good life. Then satan came along and captured the soul of that man. God switched to the backup plan. And according to mainstream Christianity God is very weak and very often has to switch plan because 95% end up in hell.

Isaiah 46:10  Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

==> Note that the verse doesn't say: or my backup will when satan outsmarts me again.

One of the best verses that shows who is really in charge is found in Job.
Job 2:6 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, he is in your hands; but you Fust spare his life."
==> Satan asked for and got permission.

Amos 3:6  ....Shall there be evil in a city which the Lord has not wrought?
Ecclesiastes 1:13  .... It is an evil task which God has given to the sons of men to be busied with.
Hosea 13:16  Samaria is held guilty, for she has rebelled against her God. They shall fall by the sword, their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped open.
Isaiah 45:7 Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Jehovah, doing all these things.' Þ God created evil for a purpose?
Isaiah 54:16  .... and I have created the one who ruins to destroy.
Isaiah 63:17  O Jehovah, why do You make us wander from Your ways? You harden our heart from Your fear. For Your servants' sake, return the tribes of Your inheritance.
Jeremiah 4:6  Set up the standard toward Zion, take refuge, do not wait around; for I will bring evil from the north, and great destruction.
Jeremiah 6:19  Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts...
Jeremiah 18:11  Now then, go speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus says Jehovah: Behold, I am forming evil against you, and devising a plan against you. Return now, each one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.
Job 2:6 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, he is in your hands; but you Fust spare his life."
God gave Satan charge over Job, his body, and all his possessions, to try him severely before God:  It was GOD'S idea to severely try Job, not Satan's.
But Satan took strict orders from God as to just how he could try Job. Satan got permission from God at each and every step of this severe trying of Job.
Do we think God does it differently today? Malachi 3:6  "I the LORD do not change....
Job 2:10  .... Also, shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?....
Joshua 23:15  .... so doth Jehovah bring upon you the whole of the evil thing....
Lam 3:38  Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?
1 Kings 22:22  And Jehovah said to him, In what way? And he said, I will go out and be a spirit of falsehood in the mouth of all his prophets. And Jehovah said, You shall entice him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.
Psalms 105:25  He turned their heart to hate His people, to deal craftily with His servants.
Proverbs 16:4  Jehovah has made all things for a witness; yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Romans 9:21  Does not the potter have authority over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor?
Romans 11:32 For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
1 Samuel 15:2-3  So says Jehovah of Hosts, ....  go, and you shall strike Amalek and destroy all that he has. And you shall have no pity on him, and you shall put to death all from man to woman, from little one to suckling, from ox to sheep, from camel to ass.
2 Samuel 12:11  Thus says Jehovah: Behold, I will raise up evil against you from your own house; ....
2 Thessalonians 2:11  and because of this shall God send to them a working of delusion, for their believing the lie,

That's enough for one post  :laughing7:

[Barry DuPont]

I enjoyed reading through this thread. [Got in a good 50%]
I thought Zeek had some very good points but of course, JMO.

The perpetual shame of Jeremiah that Zeek brings out is historical in nature. It is not against the inner person but the ego driven identity.

The fact is, God does not dwell in temples made with hands. He does not reside within that which the ego driven identity forms. This gets burnt off and is for it shame.

It is essentially the difference between those "especially saved" and the rest. The especially saved were followers who is context put on Christ (identity, or express image of God).
1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Since this verse deals with "believers" being especially saved, we must deal with the unbelievers being nevertheless, saved but not especially.

Jer 23:39   Therefore, behold, I, even I, will utterly forget you, and I will forsake you, and the city that I gave you and your fathers, [and cast you] out of my presence: 
Jer 23:40   And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten. 

Of course the city was the old covenant city of Jerusalem. NJ  must replace it. It is thus temporal. Being temporal it is a matter of historical importance. The perpetual shame has nothing to do with eternal security but is an historical reverence for the ego that the verse is speaking to.
JMO
Barry

[Barry DuPont]

I'm new here and cannot find an edit button :)
"an historical reverence for the ego" should read "an historical reference for the ego".
blessing Barry

[Tim B]

I'm new here and cannot find an edit button :)
"an historical reverence for the ego" should read "an historical reference for the ego".
blessing Barry

Hey Barry,

I think you can probably edit after a certain amount of posts, but I'm not positive.
BTW: I also get on the talk-grace.com forums too with the same username, so we've met before (in digital form lol).

[Barry DuPont]

Thanks for all the help everyone. I've found the modify button LOL!
Hey Tim, nice to see you here bro!

IMO there is a clear precedent for a "salvation through destruction":

1Cr 3:3   For ye are yet carnal: for whereas [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal {in your mind set}, and walk as men {egoicly}? 
1Cr 3:4   For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I [am] of Apollos; are ye not carnal {in your mind set}? 
1Cr 3:5  Who then is Paul {egoicly}, and who [is] Apollos {egoicly}, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 
1Cr 3:6   I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 
1Cr 3:7   So then neither is he that planteth any thing{egoicly}, neither he that watereth {egoicly}; but God that giveth the increase. 

[Barry DuPont]

continued:
1Cr 3:12   Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble {that which is from a sufficiency of one's own, or egoicly}; 
1Cr 3:13   Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 
1Cr 3:14   If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward {because it was from love being then a blessing to others. So then it was enduring. That which is from a sufficiency of one's own is not enduring.}. 
1Cr 3:15   If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss {the ego driven identity is shamed}: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 

I believe there is a clear precedent for salvation through destruction. That is what I think I see Zeek saying. Please correct me if incorrect.

Now IMHO the "shame" that let's say "Sodom" took on was an example of "eternal" or "aionian" fire. This simple means that it is recorded in history. That's all that it means IMHO.
Blessings Barry

[Zeek]

I believe there is a clear precedent for salvation through destruction. That is what I think I see Zeek saying. Please correct me if incorrect.

Now IMHO the "shame" that let's say "Sodom" took on was an example of "eternal" or "aionian" fire. This simple means that it is recorded in history. That's all that it means IMHO.
Blessings Barry

Hi Barry, it's laren/zeek.   Glad to see you here. 

The belief some have here, and maybe they will speak up some (which really would be a mixture of some other threads too, http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=4800.125; http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=6875.475), is that all go through both "gates", the wide gate and the narrow gate in the process of being saved.

In other words at one time, all are children of wrath, all abide in DEATH, all are shamed (the old man nature revealed) and then we go through the narrow gate; being conformed into his image---->LIFE. 

The perpetual shame, is the shame of the "old age", the "old man". 

The second death/lake of fire, for some here, see this a good thing, the process of dieing to death (carnal mind); and one all must go through.  Some now, and some later. 

As far as the "perpetual shame" being a historical reference; many will argue that the return of Christ in "each of us" is a past, present and future process; as God is the God of the Living and the Dead; and "is, was and will be". 

Yes you are correct in that I see scripture revealing two roads for salvation; one through the narrow gate via faith; and one through utter destruction; the vessel being smashed to pieces; via shame (wide gate).  I don't see being hurt of the second death as a good thing; and I don't see it something we all experience, of from a fulfilled view; something they all experienced. 

Hope this is helpful in clarifying where I am coming from.

blessings.

zeek

[WhiteWings]

The belief some have here, and maybe they will speak up some (which really would be a mixture of some other threads too, http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=4800.125; http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=6875.475), is that all go through both "gates", the wide gate and the narrow gate in the process of being saved.

That would mean all find the narrow path instead of a few... :punish:

[Barry DuPont]

Man I keep meeting people here LOL!
Fundementally, I agree with you "Zeek" :) Of course I cannot speak for what other's do or do not believe, as I just got here. In reference to some things you said:

Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.  

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Mat 21:31   Whether of them twain did the will of [his] father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.  
Mat 21:32   For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen [it], repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.  

It is the meaning of this verse IMHO:
Mat 12:31 "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy [against] the Spirit will not be forgiven men.  
Mat 12:32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
Mat 12:33 "Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for a tree is known by [its] fruit.  
It must IMO be seen from it's intended vantage-point as all "threats" are given. In context it means, "you will be forgiven everything by God, but history will not forgive you". That being the "egoic" stand of self sufficiency through the law which the harlots and publicans were putting off.

[Barry DuPont]

continued:
Also prophesied here:
Eze 16:63   That thou mayest remember, and be confounded, and never open thy mouth any more because of thy shame, when I am pacified toward thee for all that thou hast done, saith the Lord GOD. 

God is speaking to the ego driven self image that God did not dwell in. It is not the likeness of God.
Luk 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and [to] the evil. 
Luk 6:36   Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. 

Valuing a "view" of "right and wrong" over that of the value of people was the problem. This is what the self sufficiency identity does. It is egoic in self sufficiency. It is not the image of God.
So then the "pharisees" in question here could not receive a reward of blessing other people. But the harlots and publicans who came to understand this point began to really value people like God does. And so receive a reward of blessing others by following Christ and loving people like God does.

The Shame was that what is built by the "egoic" stance is destroyed. The chaff is burnt with unquenchable fire. Historically destroyed as it has no value in the scope of love.
JMO
Blessings Barry

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Whoa!  :mshock: Barry, what you said there about history not forgiving, really clicked in me. It can't "forgive" and "forget", because it bears record against the old man of us, as a servant of God, who can and does. Thanks for posting that........a new thing to meditate on before the Lord. Blessings.... :thumbsup:

[Barry DuPont]

:cloud9: Whoa!  :mshock: Barry, what you said there about history not forgiving, really clicked in me. It can't "forgive" and "forget", because it bears record against the old man of us, as a servant of God, who can and does. Thanks for posting that........a new thing to meditate on before the Lord. Blessings.... :thumbsup:

Thanks for the input.
This is how I understand all biblical threats.
History not forgiving is detrimental to the "egoic self image" because it is what it is looking for, the approval of men.
So the "worm never dies" and the "smoke of their torments rises".
How you understand that eschatologically is up to you :)
JMO

Barry

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Yes, well I "heard" that in a variety of applications, such as the soul can't forgive and forget either, only the Spirit of God in residence, can. And for the same reason, it was created to "bear record". Blessings...

[Barry DuPont]

Interesting Cardinal.

Probably off topic, but IMO the "soul" to be understood as the life idenity of this life. It being then the "idenity" that comes under judgement.

Mat 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

How does one "lose a soul" to find it? IMO this makes no sense through the traditional view points of the "soul".

Luk 9:22   Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day. 
Luk 9:23 And he said to [them] all, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself {as a self defined man}, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. 
Luk 9:24   For whosoever will save his life {save his soul as a self defined man} shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, {in following the faith of Christ Jesus} the same shall save it. 
Luk 9:25   For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world {Old covenant world IMO}, and lose himself, or be cast away? {historically} 
JMO Barry

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Yes.....soul = mind, will, emotions and desires, the four corners/horns/powers on the altar we are bound to, ie. then the fire can come and consumes the offering, making of ourselves a living (or soulish life) sacrifice. Blessings....