then what about the fearful that deny their faith. Does not Jesus deny them?
I personally believe there's a pretty big study here, that includes among other things, who Jesus was talking to, when, and about what. Don't claim all the answers, have some ideas, many argue it different ways. Rather than going there (again), I'd like to simply say;
God has given us His grace and mercy, through His death, blood, and resurrection. I believe those that God calls and chooses, will be ensured perseverance by His power and grace. A few of the references include "nothing can seperate us [power, principalities, things above, below, etc.", "looking to Jesus, THE AUTHOR AND FINISHER of our salvation", "saved by grace not works"...
IMO, we are to be faithful and obedient, but that is even empowered by God's Spirit working in us. We cannot boast. To God be the glory.
Quote from: CrossoverManiac on April 13, 2009, 05:13:38 AM
then what about the fearful that deny their faith. Does not Jesus deny them?
2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he
also will deny us: Jer 23:40 And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
reign with him-The peculiar privilege of the elect Church now suffering with Christ, then to reign with Him (see on [2497]1Co 6:2). Reigning is something more than mere salvation (Ro 5:17; Re 3:21; 5:10; 20:4, 5).
A little piece of study, more to come...i believe there's a lot of context involved in this issue...a verse or 2 can be used to "prove" either direction
Quote from: jabcat on April 13, 2009, 06:07:20 AM
reign with him-The peculiar privilege of the elect Church now suffering with Christ, then to reign with Him (see on [2497]1Co 6:2). Reigning is something more than mere salvation (Ro 5:17; Re 3:21; 5:10; 20:4, 5).
A little piece of study, more to come...
2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things
for the elect's sakes, that they may
also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2Ti 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For
if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
in context, :)
it appears to me that reigning and salvation are closely related.
cookies good...context great! :laughing7:
Quote from: jabcat on April 13, 2009, 06:12:22 AM
cookies good...context great! :laughing7:
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God
that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching
us that,
denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
who is the us?? who was Paul writing too?? believers.
If one denies Him, grace is not available to teach. one is left out of God's discipline, a bastard.
Those who deny, are hardened (after the fact) and have sinned the sin unto death.
Salvation by being turned over to adversary for the destruction of the flesh so the spirit can be saved in the day.
a salvation via shame.
Basically, I understand it this way...there's salvation, there's privilege, there's reigning, and probably others...oh yeah, rewards...IMO, they're not all necessarily, always the same...
I personally don't believe we're saved by grace and then kept saved by our works...if so, then wherefor of grace? If I can stay saved by my works, then I could boast...and Paul says we can't...so what's the answer(s) then? I think it's a complicated topic, and very much needs to be rightly divided, many scriptures taken into consideration, and yes, several different contexts :Whistle: to consider...it may be too big and me not quite skilled enough to put it all together in such a convincing manner to satisfy anyone who really strongly sees it the other way. And if I tried, there'd be at least a couple of people that would try to pick it apart sentence by sentence, so it would turn into another fruitless struggle.
I believe Jesus is our Savior, if He saves us, then He'll keep us saved. There are other issues involved related to obedience, works, crowns, rewards, reigning when and where and for how long perhaps. As I said, I probably can't satisfy anyone who strongly sees it the other way...and that's OK...Jesus is Master of all who believe :thumbsup:.
Quote from: Zeek on April 13, 2009, 06:14:37 AM
Quote from: jabcat on April 13, 2009, 06:12:22 AM
cookies good...context great! :laughing7:
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Yes, His grace brings salvation and teaches us...I don't see anything here about losing salvation...
Quote from: jabcat on April 13, 2009, 06:23:15 AM
Quote from: Zeek on April 13, 2009, 06:14:37 AM
Quote from: jabcat on April 13, 2009, 06:12:22 AM
cookies good...context great! :laughing7:
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Yes, His grace brings salvation and teaches us...I don't see anything here about losing salvation...
after having the truth revealed, manifest; one can deny Him, and lose their salvation of reward, that comes through the washing of the word,
imo, that's why Paul preached throughout the his epistles to "stay faithful", to endure, to keep your eye on the prize, etc.
I don't think that's what this verse is saying...I just don't see all these things you're saying in these verses...it seems you're attributing the ungodliness to meaning individuals/believers...I don't think that's what it's saying...it's talking about just that...ungodliness, isn't it?
Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
Heb 12:12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
Heb 12:13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
Heb 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
Heb 12:16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
Heb 12:17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.
Heb 12:18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
Heb 12:19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
Heb 12:20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
Heb 12:21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:)
Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
Heb 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
Heb 12:26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
Heb 12:27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
Heb 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.
Luk 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
OK, so zeek.
If you're already completely convinced, I certainly can't convince you otherwise. I've stated what I believe, and I think there's still a lot of details I need to learn about specifics of Kingdom living, rewards, reigning, Sons of God, etc. I don't think this is a straightforward 3 or 4 verse topic.
1Can you keep yourself saved?
2Can you work well enough to keep yourself saved?
3Are you the Author and Finisher of your salvation, or is Jesus?
4Is it by works you are saved, or by grace?
Is it possible some of the endurance, denying, etc. scriptures MAY have some other contexts and connotations? If not, then how would you reconcile especially 3 and 4 above with you losing your salvation?
Am I missing it, because with just a quick scan, I see things in these scriptures you're quoting about obedience, etc., but nothing about losing God's grace/salvation?
Consider that you may be viewing these scriptures through an already set mindset, i.e., coloring them with your own belief.
Col 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
Col 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Quote from: Zeek on April 13, 2009, 06:39:59 AM
Col 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
Col 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
obedience...salvation?
1Co 10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
1Co 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
1Co 10:7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
1Co 10:8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
1Co 10:9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
1Co 10:10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
I'm typing fast...please don't take anything as offense...I may say something quickly and trying to respond to you honestly and forthrightly that may not be my normal longer thought-out process...let's do this as friends, you can be honest with me too, as long as we try to remain respectful...otherwise, I'll pull out and you feel free to do the same...
Quote from: jabcat on April 13, 2009, 06:41:39 AM
Quote from: Zeek on April 13, 2009, 06:39:59 AM
Col 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
Col 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
obedience...salvation?
yes, imo; if you want to be rewarded rather than shamed.
does fall mean losing your salvation/going to hell? imo, this is much like the judgment stuff, in that many make judgment mean a final state of being, including then going to hell...does falling, being out of God's will, suffering consequences, automatically mean losing salvation? i don't think so, at least necessarily...
sorry, i'm trying to keep up with you
Oh, don't worry, i am just on a roll, where i like to post scripture to paint a picture. Nothing is fully set in stone with my mind; the Lord takes me through stages where i see some things, then he reworks my thinking
:)
ok, maybe we're onto something here with your last post...maybe we should define salvation
not your last post...now your next to last :bigGrin:
Quote from: jabcat on April 13, 2009, 06:46:26 AM
ok, maybe we're onto something here with your last post...maybe we should define salvation
YES, now i agree with this.
I have done a study on shame, and revealed alot to me.
saved by faith and obedience=rewarded; covered in his righteousness
saved by destruction=shame
Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
Quote from: jabcat on April 13, 2009, 06:46:26 AM
ok, maybe we're onto something here with your last post...maybe we should define salvation
Yes, define 'salvation'. If there is no Hell, then what is Jesus saving us from?
ok, how about we slow down a second, you look at my posts and I'll look at yours...rather than just bantering back and forth, let's consider what we're discussing. Right now (and thanks for your last post about throwing things out, not set in stone, I need to be open as well), here's what I'm thinking. I think taking all these scriptures that we have "always" assumed are talking about something we've "always" believed, and just assuming that's what they're really talking about, may be a mistake. again, all the falling, failing, punishment, suffering shame, does that mean "losing salvation" as in no longer being a child of God, His grace no longer covering us, His blood no longer washing us, but now a child of the devil? or might they mean some things other than that? you're quoting some excellent scriptures, but now what do they mean? what are they really addressing? just saved/lost, heaven/hell? or more issues than that? again, reigning, where, how, how long, suffering what exactly? correction, a "quick remedy", or being tossed somewhere without hope and to be tortured by the devil with his pitchfork? What exactly would Jesus denying someone mean? Once God puts His Spirit in you and seals you as His, His son, His child, then He pulls His Spirit out and tosses you...where? So again, what parts deal with salvation, what does salvation mean, and is it possible some other parts deal with some other spiritual matters, having to do with sonship, inheritance (of what?), which resurrection, etc. Big Subject...and oh yeah, did I say I don't have it all figured out? :icon_joker:
crossover, good question...let's think a bit...
by the way, wasn't Luther and the Catholics arguing about this a couple years ago? :punish: :happy3:
Quote from: CrossoverManiac on April 13, 2009, 06:50:55 AM
Quote from: jabcat on April 13, 2009, 06:46:26 AM
ok, maybe we're onto something here with your last post...maybe we should define salvation
Yes, define 'salvation'. If there is no Hell, then what is Jesus saving us from?
what is he saving us from?
Psa 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the
wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth. Psa 11:6 Upon the wicked he shall
rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.
1Jn 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
Gen 6:13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
Gen 6:22 Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.
Gen 7:5 And Noah did according unto all that the LORD commanded him.
Gen 7:21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
Gen 7:22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
Gen 7:23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.
Interjection;
Have you [anyone] ever in your life really known someone who deep down, way down in the depths of their being, really, truly longed to "live for God"...live a "good Christian life", "do what's right"? But they were so conditioned that it was all based on their works, on their being able to somehow be good enough, somehow live holy enough, righteous enough, please God enough, that by doing so they could win His favor and He just might barely save them so they wouldn't have to go to hell and spend eternity there in constant pain and misery? Apart from God and apart from the ones they loved? And that there would be no reprieve, no escape...forever, and ever, and ever...no end to the suffering. And it really had little to do with Jesus' death, His sacrifice, His righteousness...oh, except they believed He died on the cross, and that He was righteous all right, but all that really meant was He expected them to now be able to somehow measure up.
So since that person felt totally condemned, unworthy, even hated themselves to some degree...and even more than that, maybe even somehow hated and resented the God they really desired to love and be able to serve...because He had just made it too hard, in fact, impossible for them to "be a Christian". They know they aren't good enough. They know they sin. They know there's nothing good in them, at least that would settle any kind of account with God. They couldn't do it. They couldn't "be a Christian". They'd tried a time or two..they'd called on Jesus to save them, forgive them. But they didn't understand. The next day when they slipped, had a bad thought, said something that wasn't altogether honest, then that was it. They had failed God, had sinned, so were no longer a Christian. So they gave up, back to "I knew it wouldn't work..I knew I couldn't do it..it's just too hard..I can't be a Christian, I'm not good enough". So the cycle began again.
Have you ever known that person? They're sad, sometimes lonely and depressed. They sometimes drink too much, smoke too much, take too many pills to keep going, to try to somehow ward off their despair. And inside, they're terrified, because they think that really God doesn't love them, and they know their fate is sealed...they're going to hell.
Only to some extent, I've been that person. Not totally, because somehow, through all my faults and failures, I was given just enough light to keep going...enough grace to keep living and not die...enough of His strength to "hang in there" until He began to show me some of the things I've written earlier in this thread. That it's not me after all...that yes, He wants obedience and surrender to Him...but that even in doing that, I still have to look to Him for my strength..look to Him for my salvation..look to Him to be my righteousness, because sure as the day, I'm going to mess it up, and I'm going to need His mercy and forgiveness. And His Spirit and power to sustain me.
I do know that person above though. It's my dear, oldest sister. She was raised in an environment that had been significantly mellowed by the time I came along. She is 10 years older than me, and to this very day, at age 60, she lives a sad, defeated, lonely life. She's not "good enough" to be a Christian, and she doesn't understand that it's God's grace that both saves us and keeps us...that He is just what He says He is. Not only the Beginner of her salvation, but also the Finisher of it. She is unable to trust and be "convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Because she thinks it depends on her. And she can't do it.
Neither can I. That's why I have to "know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day."
James.
"Above all else, guard your heart for it is the wellspring of life. Let your eyes look straight ahead; fix your gaze directly before you. Make level paths for your feet and take only ways that are firm. Do not swerve to the right or the left; keep your foot from evil." - Proverbs 4:23-27
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
how??
Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
let:
G5426
φρονέω
phroneō
fron-eh'-o
From G5424; to exercise the mind, that is, entertain or have a sentiment or opinion; by implication to be (mentally) disposed (more or less earnestly in a certain direction); intensively to interest oneself in (with concern or obedience): - set the affection on, (be) care (-ful), (be like-, + be of one, + be of the same, + let this) mind (-ed, regard, savour, think.
Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Ok, so maybe this is off-topic, I don't know.
But it's what jumped in my mind as I was reading this thread.
If only more folks would realize that God sees us as his beautiful children.
Look at this sweet child
How would a mother or father (or anyone of us for that matter) view this sweet little child:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWNoiVrJDsE
:HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :icon_flower: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
Now.. think of OUR Father.
And how he sees us.
Do you REALLY think it's ALL that different?
Isn't it even far, far, far MORE WONDERFUL the way HE sees us??
and feels towards us????
He knows we are walking through this darkened, fallen world.
HE created us IN HIS IMAGE.
and subjected us
YES.
HE SUBJECTED USto corruption.
But it's so we can learn.
So we can learn by contrast.
So the whole creation CAN LEARN.
So we can see what love truly is.
GOD IS LOVE.
We are beautiful beings, created by an awesome God.
and we are being subjected to futility for a reason, for a season...
So that all of his enemies will be destroyed.
What are God's enemies?
That which is in opposition to Him
What is in opposition to him?
Anything that is NOT love.
People will not be destroyed.
The darkness is BEING destroyed.
How is it being destroyed???
BY KNOWLEDGE.
YES! By knowledge.
Our learning about love destroys the darkness.
That's what it's all about.
Nothing else matters.
When you turn on a light, you chase away the darkness.
That's what we are here for.
To LEARN to turn on those lights and chase away the darkness.
GOD is chasing away the darkness by subjecting us to this world for a SEASON.
So that we may learn by it's contrast to love, so that we may be suited for eternity.
God loves us.
ALL of us.
we ARE his beloved children.
No matter WHERE we are in our earthly lives.
He sees the REAL us.
But do you Sparrow, believe that those "under law" can know love?? Can those without faith know LOVE?
To KNOW HIM, is eternal life.
And is release from the law something all experience now??
Quote from: Zeek on April 13, 2009, 08:24:30 AM
But do you Sparrow, believe that those "under law" can know love?? Can those without faith know LOVE?
To KNOW HIM, is eternal life.
And is release from the law something all experience now??
Yes, of course.
Those "under law" CAN know love.
and those without faith CAN know love.
They experience it by the love they feel in their hearts towards their children, for instance.
A person can taste some of the love that God has for us by their own love they feel in their hearts for their own children. God has given us many, many, many different ways of tasting love. We're in varying degrees of darkness, ALL of us. Just because a person may be absolutely STEEPED in darkness on their path in life right now, doesn't mean they can't "taste" love.
We know only a small portion of love.
When the veil is removed...
love is going to knock us OFF OUR FEET.
We are going to be absolutely blown away.
Now, if you're talking about can people LOVE God.. if those people are "under law"
or "without faith", I don't know. I can imagine it would be quite difficult.
peace...
Quote from: sparrow on April 13, 2009, 08:35:57 AM
Quote from: Zeek on April 13, 2009, 08:24:30 AM
But do you Sparrow, believe that those "under law" can know love?? Can those without faith know LOVE?
To KNOW HIM, is eternal life.
And is release from the law something all experience now??
Yes, of course.
Those "under law" CAN know love.
and those without faith CAN know love.
They experience it by the love they feel in their hearts towards their children, for instance.
A person can taste some of the love that God has for us by their own love they feel in their hearts for their own children. God has given us many, many, many different ways of tasting love. We're in varying degrees of darkness, ALL of us. Just because a person may be absolutely STEEPED in darkness on their path in life right now, doesn't mean they can't "taste" love.
We know only a small portion of love.
When the veil is removed...
love is going to knock us OFF OUR FEET.
We are going to be absolutely blown away.
Now, if you're talking about can people LOVE God.. if those people are "under law"
or "without faith", I don't know. I can imagine it would be quite difficult.
peace...
So then what was the purpose of the cross? If one can know HIM/LOVE while still under law??
Quote from: Zeek on April 13, 2009, 08:53:11 AM
Quote from: sparrow on April 13, 2009, 08:35:57 AM
Quote from: Zeek on April 13, 2009, 08:24:30 AM
But do you Sparrow, believe that those "under law" can know love?? Can those without faith know LOVE?
To KNOW HIM, is eternal life.
And is release from the law something all experience now??
Yes, of course.
Those "under law" CAN know love.
and those without faith CAN know love.
They experience it by the love they feel in their hearts towards their children, for instance.
A person can taste some of the love that God has for us by their own love they feel in their hearts for their own children. God has given us many, many, many different ways of tasting love. We're in varying degrees of darkness, ALL of us. Just because a person may be absolutely STEEPED in darkness on their path in life right now, doesn't mean they can't "taste" love.
We know only a small portion of love.
When the veil is removed...
love is going to knock us OFF OUR FEET.
We are going to be absolutely blown away.
Now, if you're talking about can people LOVE God.. if those people are "under law"
or "without faith", I don't know. I can imagine it would be quite difficult.
peace...
So then what was the purpose of the cross? If one can know HIM/LOVE while still under law??
I don't think your question makes any sense.
You don't agree that you CAN still know LOVE if you are under the law?
Or in darkness?
I can't answer your questions because I don't know how you arrived
AT that question, friend.
I really don't.
What does "the cross" have to do with knowing what Love is?
Are you saying no-one experienced any form of love BEFORE Jesus died on the cross?
Look all around at His creation he built all around us.
How can we NOT know love?
How can we NOT feel His love?
Look at the people you love in this world... are you saying you DID NOT love them when you were under the law?
Doesn't make much sense.
As far as the cross...
There are different ways of interpreting the meaning of the cross.
But I think that may be one of those "we can't talk about" topics on tentmaker.
jabcat,
What you say of your sister as an example of so many others I feel is largely the result of the way we do church, the way we meet, what we do when we get together supposedly as the church. Alone and isolated doesn't happen when you have for years participated in each others lives as the body of Christ. Your life means something to them. In a three songs and a sermon ritual your presence makes no difference to the outcome of the meeting. Who knows of your joys and sorrows, your strengths and weaknesses? When every member participates other things come to the surface. Dressed up in our religious clothes in a religious "sanctuary" to hear a professional give an oration on religious themes is often so disconnected from our actual lives. In dirty work clothes, kids fighting, trying to deal with dinner and an argument over money with your mate...God is in the midst of that! and another brother wandered into the house to be a part of it all, staying for dinner. Over years with every member participation we share the real us with one another. We bear each other's burdens. God ministers to us, imparting Himself to us out of ordinary flawed people. The real problems are being shared and there is a corporate wisdom, not something filtered through the limited view of one man, maybe concerned to not lose his job.
How much of the following numbered points, 1 thru 9 corresponds to the concept of Christianity as constant indoctrination which the present "sermon every time we meet" practice implies? We're taught a personal salvation that we are responsible for ourselves. Where's the body?
2 Timothy 3:10-12 (CLV) . . .
Now you fully follow me in my 1.) teaching, 2.) motive, 3.) purpose, 4.) faith, 5.) patience, 6.) love, 7.)endurance, 8.) persecutions, 9.) sufferings, such as occurred to me in Antioch, in Iconium, in Lystra: persecutions such as I undergo, and out of them all the Lord rescues me. And all who are wanting to live devoutly in Christ Jesus shall be persecuted.
Around 10 %? Yet the present evangelical practice is more like 90% doctrine. And all that "persecutions and sufferings! We're often taught such is a sign we're displeasing to God. Good people get good things. Bad people have bad lives. How much more is a balance given thru many members?
Quote from: sparrow on April 13, 2009, 09:02:35 AM
Quote from: Zeek on April 13, 2009, 08:53:11 AM
Quote from: sparrow on April 13, 2009, 08:35:57 AM
Quote from: Zeek on April 13, 2009, 08:24:30 AM
But do you Sparrow, believe that those "under law" can know love?? Can those without faith know LOVE?
To KNOW HIM, is eternal life.
And is release from the law something all experience now??
Yes, of course.
Those "under law" CAN know love.
and those without faith CAN know love.
They experience it by the love they feel in their hearts towards their children, for instance.
A person can taste some of the love that God has for us by their own love they feel in their hearts for their own children. God has given us many, many, many different ways of tasting love. We're in varying degrees of darkness, ALL of us. Just because a person may be absolutely STEEPED in darkness on their path in life right now, doesn't mean they can't "taste" love.
We know only a small portion of love.
When the veil is removed...
love is going to knock us OFF OUR FEET.
We are going to be absolutely blown away.
Now, if you're talking about can people LOVE God.. if those people are "under law"
or "without faith", I don't know. I can imagine it would be quite difficult.
peace...
So then what was the purpose of the cross? If one can know HIM/LOVE while still under law??
I don't think your question makes any sense.
You don't agree that you CAN still know LOVE if you are under the law?
Or in darkness?
I can't answer your questions because I don't know how you arrived AT that question, friend.
I really don't.
What does "the cross" have to do with knowing what Love is?
Are you saying no-one experienced any form of love BEFORE Jesus died on the cross?
Look all around at His creation he built all around us.
How can we NOT know love?
How can we NOT feel His love?
Look at the people you love in this world... are you saying you DID NOT love them when you were under the law?
Doesn't make much sense.
LOVE imo is a Person/Being, The FATHER. To know HIM is to LOVE.
Under law, a mindset of earn your father's love; set man up for a spiral downhill; to the poing of despair. From this position; we are able to reveal our nakedness to HIM, and KNOW LOVE.
The law is the ministration of death, and death is separation from LOVE.
God has set up this world in a way where we KNOW love.
And that love can be weakened or it can be strengthened.
We don't come into the world not knowing love AT ALL.
We experience varying degrees of love.
The more we UNDERSTAND love... the more we CAN love.
The more we understand love, the more we understand GOD.
Not only should we understand what salvation is, but what end is in view that we are to endure until.
Quote from: Zeek on April 13, 2009, 09:07:08 AM
LOVE imo is a Person/Being, The FATHER. To know HIM is to LOVE.
AHHHH.... yes.
Zeek... looky here now...
You said "To know HIM is to LOVE"
But the opposite is also true.
To KNOW LOVE, is to KNOW GOD.
When a mother looks into the eyes of her newborn child...
She KNOWS LOVE.
GOD IS LOVE.
He didn't stick us here on earth, totally unequipped.
Love is in our hearts.
Love is what makes us SEEK HIM.
Some seek him out of FEAR. Some STAY in that fear, and it is true, they will probably not ever truly understand God's love for us or the fact that GOD IS LOVE. But maybe one day... that love they have in their heart for someone else, will help soften their heart and help them to allow the thought in their head that maybe, just maybe think "God loves me the way I love...(my daughter, my son, etc.)".
Do you see what I'm saying?
ALL love comes from the source.... (God.)
Isn't that a comforting thought? :HeartThrob:
:icon_flower:
Quote from: sparrow on April 13, 2009, 09:08:16 AM
God has set up this world in a way where we KNOW love.
And that love can be weakened or it can be strengthened.
We don't come into the world not knowing love AT ALL.
We experience varying degrees of love.
The more we UNDERSTAND love... the more we CAN love.
The more we understand love, the more we understand GOD.
YES, but is that true for those veiled by the shadow? Those kicked out of the garden with flaming swords not letting them back in.
I don't disagree with sparrow's viewpoint, i just have only been able to see it when I look at the gospel as fulfilled through Christ and his return; imo; ushering the NEW Earth. (preterist view)
If we are not in an new "era", then their are the "Ishmaels" still out there; who are persecuting those who know HIM, and they don't know LOVE. As Jesus said, if you knew me; you would take of this water and drink.
Are all drinking??
Joh 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her,
If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink;
thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
do these men in Jude know love?
Jud 1:10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
Jud 1:11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
Jud 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
Jud 1:13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
Jud 1:16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.
Jud 1:17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
Jud 1:18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
Jud 1:19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
Jud 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
Jud 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
Jud 1:22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:
Jud 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
Jud 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
Jud 1:25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
is this to know LOVE
Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
1Jn 2:11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.
1Jn 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
Quote from: reFORMer on April 13, 2009, 09:10:41 AM
Not only should we understand what salvation is, but what end is in view that we are to endure until.
Exactly. Thanks for the prior post as well...yes, "doing church"...interesting concept.
1Jn 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
Zeek... I don't think we can come to an understanding.
I appreciate your posts, but I think our perspectives are just too different right now.
And that's all right.
Peace to you.
Perhaps we will chat again about something else one day.
:HeartThrob:,
sparrow
Quote from: sparrow on April 13, 2009, 09:33:49 AM
Zeek... I don't think we can come to an understanding.
I appreciate your posts, but I think our perspectives are just too different right now.
And that's all right.
Peace to you.
Perhaps we will chat again about something else one day.
:HeartThrob:,
sparrow
actually they are not different, i agree with your post.
my question; is if we look at the bible as "an apply to all generations" then yours and mine ideas on love are wrong as clearly the bible speaks of evil men with evil intentions that are children of satan.
for me, if we see the bible as a story of redemption and salvation that was fulfilled in Christ and his return (past tense) and the old was done away with; then the authority that held back humanity from experiencing LOVE was done away with; and LOVE is here, now to be revealed and released.
I see so much love, in so many people; even non believers. And I believe it is from God.
I like to see how people come to these conclusions. I wanted to see how you Sparrow, from a biblical perspective; you were able to come to the conclusion that LOVE is in all.
From a heart perspective, I know how you did,; it's just there. I know, I feel it too. I refuse to look at people as horrible sin filled creatures destined to torture; but as Children of God, BELOVED, and i believe that too is the message we should reveal and live.
Z
Quote from: Zeek on April 13, 2009, 09:40:42 AM
Quote from: sparrow on April 13, 2009, 09:33:49 AM
Zeek... I don't think we can come to an understanding.
I appreciate your posts, but I think our perspectives are just too different right now.
And that's all right.
Peace to you.
Perhaps we will chat again about something else one day.
:HeartThrob:,
sparrow
actually they are not different, i agree with your post.
my question; is if we look at the bible as "an apply to all generations" then yours and mine ideas on love are wrong as clearly the bible speaks of evil men with evil intentions that are children of satan.
for me, if we see the bible as a story of redemption and salvation that was fulfilled in Christ and his return (past tense) and the old was done away with; then the authority that held back humanity from experiencing LOVE was done away with; and LOVE is here, now to be revealed and released.
I see so much love, in so many people; even non believers. And I believe it is from God.
I like to see how people come to these conclusions. I wanted to see how you Sparrow, from a biblical perspective; you were able to come to the conclusion that LOVE is in all.
From a heart perspective, I know how you did,; it's just there. I know, I feel it too. I refuse to look at people as horrible sin filled creatures destined to torture; but as Children of God, BELOVED, and i believe that too is the message we should reveal and live.
Z
hmmmm.
Ok, after reading that post then it does seem that maybe we see things in similar ways.
But... I'm still not quite sure what you are asking?
Are you playing devil's advocate, then?
or...?
Sorry, I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from..
I don't neccessarily see the bible as "inerrant".
So, really... it doesn't matter to me.
He leads.
I follow.
He uses the bible sometimes.
and sometimes not.
So, if you're looking for me to lay out biblical verses...sorry.
If someone NEEDS someone to quote the bible and without that they can't respect the message that a person is trying to get across, then there's not a whole lot I can do about that.
Now, I'm sure I could go open my bible and pour over it ad nauseum to give you an answer.
But my answers dwell in my HEART. And they're not arranged neatly by numbered verses.
Do you understand what I mean?
I think that's why I was bowing out of the conversation.
Because everyone needs bible verses thrown at them.
Well, God doesn't always operate that way.
At least not with me.
Peace to ya friend...
I hope you understand what I mean.
If I could reach in, take out my heart and slap it on the table for you... I would.
Quote from: Zeek on April 13, 2009, 09:29:01 AM
1Jn 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
This what confused me, God so loved the "world" he send his son to die for us, so the love of God also don't have the love himself...very confusing....
(AUV-NT) You should not love the [godless] world, nor the things [i.e., the materialistic values] that are part of this [present] age. If any person loves the world, a [genuine] love for the Father is not in his heart.
1Jn 2:15 To you all, whether fathers, young men, or little children, I say, Love not the world - Pursue your victory by overcoming the world. If any man love the world - Seek happiness in visible things, he does not love God.
iD,
I think the verse doesn't mean to hate the whole world but only the sinful things of the world.
You're right, Zeek. Salvation is salvation unto obedience and sanctification by the Spirit. Paul's Gospel from Romans to Philemon is one of obedience. Only by obedience to our heavenly Father can we have true and lasting happiness, luxury, and pleasure in the Kingdom of Christ and of God both in this world and in any to follow it. Otherwise, we perish and the shame of our nakedness is exposed in that Day. Father meticulously plans every detail of our lives, and we must obey or return to Hell. People speak of wanting relationship over Mosaic law, not realizing that law is easier 'cause it doesn't require the careful planning of each half hour of your day to conform with Father's desires. Law just means don't screw up, while relationship is like the old song says "Come on and walk on the water with Me."
29And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him. (John 8:29)
31but the world must learn that I love the Father and that I do exactly what my Father has commanded me. Come now; let us leave. (John 14:31)
17Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. (1John 4:17)
And God always operates by the Word. Always. Thankfully, He does give specifics Personally. But everything, even the worlds, are according to the Word. Every specific I've ever gotten from Him has always been a harvest of the Word, even if at the time I didn't know what was the Seed to what particular thing. Too many Scriptures can be cited about being leery of ANYTHING/ANYONE that doesn't come by BOTH the Spirit and the Word. Lord Jesus based the totality of His integrity, His guidance, His ministry, and His overcoming upon the Written Word of God, and He never changes. When He returns, He'll be a Word believing, Word confessing, Word meditating, Word lead Saviour of the World. He'll forever be saying "it is Written..." and anyone that doesn't know that about Him, hasn't yet discovered the Christ of the pages of the Bible, but is perhaps listening to a different spirit.
Quote from: martincisneros on April 13, 2009, 12:18:20 PM
And God always operates by the Word. Always. Thankfully, He does give specifics Personally. But everything, even the worlds, are according to the Word. Every specific I've ever gotten from Him has always been a harvest of the Word, even if at the time I didn't know what was the Seed to what particular thing. Too many Scriptures can be cited about being leery of ANYTHING/ANYONE that doesn't come by BOTH the Spirit and the Word. Lord Jesus based the totality of His integrity, His guidance, His ministry, and His overcoming upon the Written Word of God, and He never changes. When He returns, He'll be a Word believing, Word confessing, Word meditating, Word lead Saviour of the World. He'll forever be saying "it is Written..." and anyone that doesn't know that about Him, hasn't yet discovered the Christ of the pages of the Bible, but is perhaps listening to a different spirit.
Martin,
There are great truths in the bible, but if you think that is the only way that God reveals truth, or talks to us then we will just have to agree to disagree. It is one way, but it is not the ONLY way.
Quote from: sparrow on April 13, 2009, 05:49:55 PM
There are great truths in the bible, but if you think that is the only way that God reveals truth, or talks to us then we will just have to agree to disagree. It is one way, but it is not the ONLY way.
Sparrow,
The way I read Martins answer he's not disagreeing with you.
There are many ways the truth can be revealed to someone. But only the method differs. The (meaning of) words are always the same as found in the Bible.
Correct Martin?
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 13, 2009, 06:01:30 PM
Quote from: sparrow on April 13, 2009, 05:49:55 PM
There are great truths in the bible, but if you think that is the only way that God reveals truth, or talks to us then we will just have to agree to disagree. It is one way, but it is not the ONLY way.
Sparrow,
The way I read Martins answer he's not disagreeing with you.
There are many ways the truth can be revealed to someone. But only the method differs. The (meaning of) words are always the same as found in the Bible.
Correct Martin?
I didn't read it that way, but if THAT is what is he actually saying, then I don't have a problem with that.
Edited to add: well, actually... with saying that, let me also say, I'm not one who is convinced that the bible is inerrant.
I understand there are many who absolutely don't question the validity of the entire bible. I'm just not one of them.
I do question. So maybe that will shed some light. I think some things, people twist and turn and twist and turn and twist and turn and try to make it fit. But it's a square peg in a round hole. God is love. Whatever doesn't line up with that statement needs to be examined VERY closely before it is taken as truth. LOVE is the measuring stick, not the bible. (This is just my opinion and I know others, many perhaps, disagree and that's ok.)
Just my :2c:
Good point.
When I say Bible I actually mean the 100% exact word of God/Jesus.
QuoteI'm not one who is convinced that the bible is inerrant.
I think noone on this forum is. How many thread have we about translation errors on this forum.....?
But the orginal words don't clash with personal revelations.
That brings me to your point. The personal revelation can clash with translation errors in the Bible we have now.
Got a few more cents for me? :winkgrin:
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 13, 2009, 07:26:25 PM
Good point.
When I say Bible I actually mean the 100% exact word of God/Jesus.
QuoteI'm not one who is convinced that the bible is inerrant.
I think noone on this forum is. How many thread have we about translation errors on this forum.....?
But the orginal words don't clash with personal revelations.
Amen. Nail on head :gthumbsup: The
originals (as best we can ascertain)...
The work of the Spirit of God within those who are called and "sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise," which is the surety of their "inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession" (Eph. 1:12-14). Praise God for His goodness and mercy!
6according as the testimony of the Christ was confirmed in you,
7so that ye are not behind in any gift, waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ,
8who also shall confirm you unto the end -- unblamable in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ;
9faithful [is] God, through whom ye were called to the fellowship of His Son Jesus Christ our Lord.
I Corinthians 1
There are many scriptures about falling, consequences, judgment, and the enduring to the end...but IMO, they must be reconciled with the above, seen in the whole context of saved believers will be confirmed to the end. So again, IMO, a complete study would take into account who was being talked to and about what exactly, because Paul is very clear that the Spirit of God ensures salvation to those called and given the faith to believe...that God does the work in the believer to "keep that which is committed unto Him against that day". He is our righteousness...pursue Him, love Him, live in obedience to Him...and He ensures the final result. Not only the Author, but the Finisher. His blood is not in vain.
To God be the glory...great things He has done!
Quote from: sparrow on April 13, 2009, 05:49:55 PM
Quote from: martincisneros on April 13, 2009, 12:18:20 PM
And God always operates by the Word. Always. Thankfully, He does give specifics Personally. But everything, even the worlds, are according to the Word. Every specific I've ever gotten from Him has always been a harvest of the Word, even if at the time I didn't know what was the Seed to what particular thing. Too many Scriptures can be cited about being leery of ANYTHING/ANYONE that doesn't come by BOTH the Spirit and the Word. Lord Jesus based the totality of His integrity, His guidance, His ministry, and His overcoming upon the Written Word of God, and He never changes. When He returns, He'll be a Word believing, Word confessing, Word meditating, Word lead Saviour of the World. He'll forever be saying "it is Written..." and anyone that doesn't know that about Him, hasn't yet discovered the Christ of the pages of the Bible, but is perhaps listening to a different spirit.
Martin,
There are great truths in the bible, but if you think that is the only way that God reveals truth, or talks to us then we will just have to agree to disagree. It is one way, but it is not the ONLY way.
The reason why martin did this is because God operate him this way while God operate you the other way, God make everyone differant in differantway.
Hi,
I have been reading a lot from the main website and this forum! Can anyone tell me whether Zeek is still an active member?
I thought I would document my progress a little here and there, as I seek to find the truth...
So far I like the concept of God not having conditional love...we who have had Christ's true identity revealed to us are BLESSED, but we still have wicked hearts I think, which are carnal, and we forget that we were saved by grace, through faith, and that this faith was not of ourselves! No credit to us!
Then our wicked hearts go straight into judgemental mode somehow, and perhaps start thinking our salvation is to our credit, that we somehow have made a clever choice, and that those who also do not choose to believe after the gospel has been shared with them are just plain rebellious!
So far, the concept is working for me. I am not so happy about all the "correct" meanings of the original words, the perhaps "twisting" and forcing of scripture to harmonise with the concept of UR though... as if the plain reading of scripture cannot just be read, understood and implemented...almost as if my Bible (I love my Amplified Bible which at least has tried to convey the colourful Hebrew language better than word for word translations...) has some major conspiracy theory behind it...
Eternal life and eternal damnation? Same Greek word used for both these eternals? "All" not always "all" etc...are also worrying me...
The thought that as much as I would like to embrace UR, that the danger of telling people that they are saved, but just do not know it yet (or if that is my mindset) I could be party to a terrible heresy...
Please, I mean no offense, just documenting my progress...
Kind regards
Esther:)
Sorry...another quick thought:
When scripture says that God will have all men saved...is this not God's perfect will? Does God not have 2 wills? His perfect will AND his permissive will?
Esther:)
A devided kingdom will not stand.
If the King has 2 will then teh King is devided and His kingdom will collapse.
Can there be more than one perfect will?
If God has a perfect will and a less perfect will that would mean God is not perfect in everything He does.
John 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
Þ God gives full control to Jesus
John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Þ The task of Jesus is to give eternal life to all things (=mankind)
John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Þ And Jesus accomplishes His task
Quote from: peteresther on October 17, 2009, 12:34:37 PM
So far, the concept is working for me. I am not so happy about all the "correct" meanings of the original words, the perhaps "twisting" and forcing of scripture to harmonise with the concept of UR
The same can be said about the meaning mainstream Christianity gives to those words.
But there are many verses that for example very clearly show forever can't be true.
If you haven't found them yet I will list them for you.
Quotethough... as if the plain reading of scripture cannot just be read, understood and implemented...almost as if my Bible (I love my Amplified Bible which at least has tried to convey the colourful Hebrew language better than word for word translations...) has some major conspiracy theory behind it...
Still I would like to suggest a literal verion. Maybe not as your main Bible but to verify things.
There are many free versions online.
QuoteEternal life and eternal damnation? Same Greek word used for both these eternals? "All" not always "all" etc...are also worrying me...
That's because both are not eternal. But after that period life continues for all.
Say your holiday starts in August. That of your colleges starts in July.
Then at the end of June God says:
Esther goes into age-during office work and the others go into age-during holiday.
That is only about the month July,
Not a perfect example.....
QuoteThe thought that as much as I would like to embrace UR, that the danger of telling people that they are saved, but just do not know it yet (or if that is my mindset) I could be party to a terrible heresy...
That's good because you should: ....study
yourself approved....
That means you have to critical verify all you read here.
QuotePlease, I mean no offense, just documenting my progress...
Nice document :laughing7:
:cloud9: Hi Esther.....yes Zeek is an active member still. He's been posting this week, as a matter of fact. Be blessed.........
Quote from: Cardinal on October 17, 2009, 08:08:14 PM
:cloud9: Hi Esther.....yes Zeek is an active member still. He's been posting this week, as a matter of fact. Be blessed.........
yep i'm here.
HI.
there is only one thing that endures[never fails] LOVE
and we have had Love defined to us as God is a spirit.
There is no life without love...God put part of Himself in all
human beings[Adam] Sin entered/corrupted Adam made in the
image of God bringing death[image of the corruptible all
humans bear] I will not give my Glory to another.good evil mix
The secound Adam became a life-giving spirit[love quickened]
and so shall we also all bear the image of the incorruptible
[love] The firstborn from the dead and begotton of God..
the perfect/TOL/immortal
He tells us the image that is corrupt..that perishes..and the
dust shall return to the earth from wence it came[corruptible
image NOT given His Glory] And the Son of God in HIS IMAGE
incorruptible immortal- the SPIRIT WILL RETURN UNTO GOD
WHO GAVE IT.[to heaven...'I am returning to My Father and
Your Father"
So what will endure is the spirit son and/or daughter of God
and what will perish is the corruptible image.
This is for all humans to expierance...those born from below
are born of the corrupt seed and spirit of wickedness[tares]
and have spirit of God put to death in them/good and evil mix
[unless a grain of wheat /good,fall to the earth and die..it
cannot bear fruit unto heaven[be perfected]
those born from above are wheat that is the seed of God
the good and perfect
Jesus told us in the parable that the field had been sown by
an enemy...and told us what was to take place.[the field is
each of our bodies sown with sin/tares AND WHEAT.[good/evil]
This is also shown as the good/evil mix or TOKOGAE
that leads to death.
Life giving spirit[last Adam] is the TOL.
I AM the First[Adam son of God born from below] and
the Last [ last Adam became a life-giving spirit/only begotton
of the Father/born from above] We all must be born again from
above[and in the last days I will pour out my spirit on all flesh]
the sin in our flesh is the adversary that resists the will of
God. it is the seed of the man-killer and accusor. It is a spirit
that is the direct OPPOSITE of what God is[Love]. It eats dust
all the days of it's life[spirit seed of the serpent]
the spirit seed of the serpent is also revealed in the parable of
the rich man and Lazarus[weeds are hardy and suck up
nutrients in the soil..often to the detriment of desired crops
sown/thus they are 'rich' in this world as far as their ability to
thrive and often make the wheat/Lazurus of poor yeild...
The Good and PERFECT will endure and be saved
my :2c:
:cloud9: Amen, Sheila.......
Quote from: peteresther on October 17, 2009, 01:16:03 PM
Sorry...another quick thought:
When scripture says that God will have all men saved...is this not God's perfect will? Does God not have 2 wills? His perfect will AND his permissive will?
Esther:)
I don't know if this is abusing Scripture, but that brings this verse to mind:
"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other." (Matthew 6:24)
If God has two wills that are in conflict with each other, then how in the world can he be an unchanging entity whose will is absolute? How does he serve, in a sense, two masters that are in opposition to one another? And how can it be the case that God's will be done if there are two mutually exclusive wills?
Quote from: Gab on October 18, 2009, 12:02:34 AM
I don't know if this is abusing Scripture, but that brings this verse to mind:
"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other." (Matthew 6:24)
If God has two wills that are in conflict with each other, then how in the world can he be an unchanging entity whose will is absolute? How does he serve, in a sense, two masters that are in opposition to one another? And how can it be the case that God's will be done if there are two mutually exclusive wills?
Hi Gab,
I don't know...the way I see it is that there
is such a thing as God's perfect will and his permissive will...
If a man dies from alcohol poisoning, and his wife reckons that this was God's will for her husband, surely this is not so? God's perfect will for her husband could have been for him to have remained healthy and had fullness of years...instead, because of his choices, God permitted his death?
When scripture tells us that Satan has come to kill and to rob and to destroy, and straight after that, that Jesus has come so that we can have life, and life more abundantly...this is God's perfect will, but not all Christians
do have life more abundantly in every sense of the word. They still get robbed, killed and destroyed...(God's permissive will.)
In other words, God has a perfect plan (perfect will) for a person, but if the person does not co-operate with the plan, or for whatever reason this plan does not come to fruition, then God allows (permissive will) another plan...
Esther:)
Esther,
QuoteWhen scripture tells us that Satan has come to kill and to rob and to destroy, and straight after that, that Jesus has come so that we can have life,
QuoteIn other words, God has a perfect plan (perfect will) for a person, but if the person does not co-operate with the plan, or for whatever reason this plan does not come to fruition, then God allows (permissive will) another plan...
So satan is more powerful than God? God had a perfect plan for than man to live a good life. Then satan came along and captured the soul of that man. God switched to the backup plan. And according to mainstream Christianity God is very weak and very often has to switch plan because 95% end up in hell.
Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
==> Note that the verse doesn't say: or my backup will when satan outsmarts me again.
One of the best verses that shows who is really in charge is found in Job.
Job 2:6 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, he is in your hands; but you Fust spare his life."
==> Satan asked for and got permission.
Amos 3:6 ....Shall there be evil in a city which the Lord has not wrought?
Ecclesiastes 1:13 .... It is an evil task which God has given to the sons of men to be busied with.
Hosea 13:16 Samaria is held guilty, for she has rebelled against her God. They shall fall by the sword, their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped open.
Isaiah 45:7 Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Jehovah, doing all these things.' Þ God created evil for a purpose?
Isaiah 54:16 .... and I have created the one who ruins to destroy.
Isaiah 63:17 O Jehovah, why do You make us wander from Your ways? You harden our heart from Your fear. For Your servants' sake, return the tribes of Your inheritance.
Jeremiah 4:6 Set up the standard toward Zion, take refuge, do not wait around; for I will bring evil from the north, and great destruction.
Jeremiah 6:19 Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts...
Jeremiah 18:11 Now then, go speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus says Jehovah: Behold, I am forming evil against you, and devising a plan against you. Return now, each one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.
Job 2:6 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, he is in your hands; but you Fust spare his life."
God gave Satan charge over Job, his body, and all his possessions, to try him severely before God: It was GOD'S idea to severely try Job, not Satan's.
But Satan took strict orders from God as to just how he could try Job. Satan got permission from God at each and every step of this severe trying of Job.
Do we think God does it differently today? Malachi 3:6 "I the LORD do not change....
Job 2:10 .... Also, shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?....
Joshua 23:15 .... so doth Jehovah bring upon you the whole of the evil thing....
Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?
1 Kings 22:22 And Jehovah said to him, In what way? And he said, I will go out and be a spirit of falsehood in the mouth of all his prophets. And Jehovah said, You shall entice him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.
Psalms 105:25 He turned their heart to hate His people, to deal craftily with His servants.
Proverbs 16:4 Jehovah has made all things for a witness; yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Romans 9:21 Does not the potter have authority over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor?
Romans 11:32 For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
1 Samuel 15:2-3 So says Jehovah of Hosts, .... go, and you shall strike Amalek and destroy all that he has. And you shall have no pity on him, and you shall put to death all from man to woman, from little one to suckling, from ox to sheep, from camel to ass.
2 Samuel 12:11 Thus says Jehovah: Behold, I will raise up evil against you from your own house; ....
2 Thessalonians 2:11 and because of this shall God send to them a working of delusion, for their believing the lie,
That's enough for one post :laughing7:
I enjoyed reading through this thread. [Got in a good 50%]
I thought Zeek had some very good points but of course, JMO.
The perpetual shame of Jeremiah that Zeek brings out is historical in nature. It is not against the inner person but the ego driven identity.
The fact is, God does not dwell in temples made with hands. He does not reside within that which the ego driven identity forms. This gets burnt off and is for it shame.
It is essentially the difference between those "especially saved" and the rest. The especially saved were followers who is context put on Christ (identity, or express image of God).
1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
Since this verse deals with "believers" being especially saved, we must deal with the unbelievers being nevertheless, saved but not especially.
Jer 23:39 Therefore, behold, I, even I, will utterly forget you, and I will forsake you, and the city that I gave you and your fathers, [and cast you] out of my presence:
Jer 23:40 And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.
Of course the city was the old covenant city of Jerusalem. NJ must replace it. It is thus temporal. Being temporal it is a matter of historical importance. The perpetual shame has nothing to do with eternal security but is an historical reverence for the ego that the verse is speaking to.
JMO
Barry
I'm new here and cannot find an edit button :)
"an historical reverence for the ego" should read "an historical reference for the ego".
blessing Barry
Quote from: Barry DuPont on October 19, 2009, 02:04:38 AM
I'm new here and cannot find an edit button :)
"an historical reverence for the ego" should read "an historical reference for the ego".
blessing Barry
Hey Barry,
I think you can probably edit after a certain amount of posts, but I'm not positive.
BTW: I also get on the talk-grace.com forums too with the same username, so we've met before (in digital form lol).
Thanks for all the help everyone. I've found the modify button LOL!
Hey Tim, nice to see you here bro!
IMO there is a clear precedent for a "salvation through destruction":
1Cr 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal {in your mind set}, and walk as men {egoicly}?
1Cr 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I [am] of Apollos; are ye not carnal {in your mind set}?
1Cr 3:5 Who then is Paul {egoicly}, and who [is] Apollos {egoicly}, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
1Cr 3:6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
1Cr 3:7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing{egoicly}, neither he that watereth {egoicly}; but God that giveth the increase.
continued:
1Cr 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble {that which is from a sufficiency of one's own, or egoicly};
1Cr 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Cr 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward {because it was from love being then a blessing to others. So then it was enduring. That which is from a sufficiency of one's own is not enduring.}.
1Cr 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss {the ego driven identity is shamed}: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
I believe there is a clear precedent for salvation through destruction. That is what I think I see Zeek saying. Please correct me if incorrect.
Now IMHO the "shame" that let's say "Sodom" took on was an example of "eternal" or "aionian" fire. This simple means that it is recorded in history. That's all that it means IMHO.
Blessings Barry
Quote from: Barry DuPont on October 19, 2009, 03:33:28 PM
I believe there is a clear precedent for salvation through destruction. That is what I think I see Zeek saying. Please correct me if incorrect.
Now IMHO the "shame" that let's say "Sodom" took on was an example of "eternal" or "aionian" fire. This simple means that it is recorded in history. That's all that it means IMHO.
Blessings Barry
Hi Barry, it's laren/zeek. Glad to see you here.
The belief some have here, and maybe they will speak up some (which really would be a mixture of some other threads too, http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=4800.125; http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=6875.475), is that all go through both "gates", the wide gate and the narrow gate in the process of being saved.
In other words at one time, all are children of wrath, all abide in DEATH, all are shamed (the old man nature revealed) and then we go through the narrow gate; being conformed into his image---->LIFE.
The perpetual shame, is the shame of the "old age", the "old man".
The second death/lake of fire, for some here, see this a good thing, the process of dieing to death (carnal mind); and one all must go through. Some now, and some later.
As far as the "perpetual shame" being a historical reference; many will argue that the return of Christ in "each of us" is a past, present and future process; as God is the God of the Living and the Dead; and "is, was and will be".
Yes you are correct in that I see scripture revealing two roads for salvation; one through the narrow gate via faith; and one through utter destruction; the vessel being smashed to pieces; via shame (wide gate). I don't see being hurt of the second death as a good thing; and I don't see it something we all experience, of from a fulfilled view; something they all experienced.
Hope this is helpful in clarifying where I am coming from.
blessings.
zeek
Quote from: Zeek on October 19, 2009, 04:38:56 PM
The belief some have here, and maybe they will speak up some (which really would be a mixture of some other threads too, http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=4800.125; http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=6875.475), is that all go through both "gates", the wide gate and the narrow gate in the process of being saved.
That would mean all find the narrow path instead of a few... :punish:
Man I keep meeting people here LOL!
Fundementally, I agree with you "Zeek" :) Of course I cannot speak for what other's do or do not believe, as I just got here. In reference to some things you said:
Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Mat 21:31 Whether of them twain did the will of [his] father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
Mat 21:32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen [it], repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.
It is the meaning of this verse IMHO:
Mat 12:31 "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy [against] the Spirit will not be forgiven men.
Mat 12:32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
Mat 12:33 "Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for a tree is known by [its] fruit.
It must IMO be seen from it's intended vantage-point as all "threats" are given. In context it means, "you will be forgiven everything by God, but history will not forgive you". That being the "egoic" stand of self sufficiency through the law which the harlots and publicans were putting off.
continued:
Also prophesied here:
Eze 16:63 That thou mayest remember, and be confounded, and never open thy mouth any more because of thy shame, when I am pacified toward thee for all that thou hast done, saith the Lord GOD.
God is speaking to the ego driven self image that God did not dwell in. It is not the likeness of God.
Luk 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and [to] the evil.
Luk 6:36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
Valuing a "view" of "right and wrong" over that of the value of people was the problem. This is what the self sufficiency identity does. It is egoic in self sufficiency. It is not the image of God.
So then the "pharisees" in question here could not receive a reward of blessing other people. But the harlots and publicans who came to understand this point began to really value people like God does. And so receive a reward of blessing others by following Christ and loving people like God does.
The Shame was that what is built by the "egoic" stance is destroyed. The chaff is burnt with unquenchable fire. Historically destroyed as it has no value in the scope of love.
JMO
Blessings Barry
:cloud9: Whoa! :mshock: Barry, what you said there about history not forgiving, really clicked in me. It can't "forgive" and "forget", because it bears record against the old man of us, as a servant of God, who can and does. Thanks for posting that........a new thing to meditate on before the Lord. Blessings.... :thumbsup:
Quote from: Cardinal on October 19, 2009, 05:26:27 PM
:cloud9: Whoa! :mshock: Barry, what you said there about history not forgiving, really clicked in me. It can't "forgive" and "forget", because it bears record against the old man of us, as a servant of God, who can and does. Thanks for posting that........a new thing to meditate on before the Lord. Blessings.... :thumbsup:
Thanks for the input.
This is how I understand all biblical threats.
History not forgiving is detrimental to the "egoic self image" because it is what it is looking for, the approval of men.
So the "worm never dies" and the "smoke of their torments rises".
How you understand that eschatologically is up to you :)
JMO
Barry
:cloud9: Yes, well I "heard" that in a variety of applications, such as the soul can't forgive and forget either, only the Spirit of God in residence, can. And for the same reason, it was created to "bear record". Blessings...
Interesting Cardinal.
Probably off topic, but IMO the "soul" to be understood as the life idenity of this life. It being then the "idenity" that comes under judgement.
Mat 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
How does one "lose a soul" to find it? IMO this makes no sense through the traditional view points of the "soul".
Luk 9:22 Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.
Luk 9:23 And he said to [them] all, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself {as a self defined man}, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
Luk 9:24 For whosoever will save his life {save his soul as a self defined man} shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, {in following the faith of Christ Jesus} the same shall save it.
Luk 9:25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world {Old covenant world IMO}, and lose himself, or be cast away? {historically}
JMO Barry
:cloud9: Yes.....soul = mind, will, emotions and desires, the four corners/horns/powers on the altar we are bound to, ie. then the fire can come and consumes the offering, making of ourselves a living (or soulish life) sacrifice. Blessings....