Do More People Know God Than Most People Think?

[Tim B]

So, I've wondered about this, and I'm honestly beginning to believe it more and more: do more people know God than we think?

John said that if we know love than we'll know God, because God IS love.

Now, I know of many people who claim they know God, but hardly love, and I know of people that don't believe in the "Christian" God, but are more loving.

So basically, do you think that there's some people, that despite their claiming not to believe in the "Christian" God or, perhaps, even claim to be atheists, actually really DO know God? Like, Ghandi, for instance? I mean, as he said: "I like Jesus, I just don't like his followers." (Or something along those lines.) This sounds like somebody who certainly knows what love is, but doesn't like the Christians' hypocrisy.

[sparrow]

So, I've wondered about this, and I'm honestly beginning to believe it more and more: do more people know God than we think?

John said that if we know love than we'll know God, because God IS love.

Now, I know of many people who claim they know God, but hardly love, and I know of people that don't believe in the "Christian" God, but are more loving.

So basically, do you think that there's some people, that despite their claiming not to believe in the "Christian" God or, perhaps, even claim to be atheists, actually really DO know God? Like, Ghandi, for instance? I mean, as he said: "I like Jesus, I just don't like his followers." (Or something along those lines.) This sounds like somebody who certainly knows what love is, but doesn't like the Christians' hypocrisy.

YES! God sees the heart.
And all knees will bow.


Jesus is the gate... everyone will walk through.
But some will recognize Him more than others, and those who do will not all be "christians".
There will be many "christians" who won't recognize Jesus, if you ask me.
Because their image of god is not the true image.
God is love.

Thankfully... all will come to the knowledge of the Lord...
each in his own way.
We are all brothers and sisters.

[jabcat]

I agree Tim B, it is a bit puzzling regarding folks like Ghandi and others, the good they seem to do, and at least the appearance of love in their hearts...also, that often we as believers (writer raises hand) certainly don't have nor show the kind of love we need to have and show.  And blessings to you sparrow for saying  "And all knees will bow.  Jesus is the gate... everyone will walk through."  The love in your heart comes through as usual.

I came across a thread tonight from which I copied and pasted some thoughts from one of our dear brothers, John (Kratos) now gone on to be with the Lord.  Maybe folks will agree, maybe you'll see some things at least s/w differently, but maybe his thoughts will help someone.  God's blessing, James.


"Does anyone still believe that people must be born again through faith in Jesus Christ to be a partaker of His Spirit? All I have to go by if I am not going to exalt my judgments over God's is the Bible and my own life experiences. I was TOTALLY changed from the day before I bowed my knee to Christ and the day after I was saved. With the heart I believed unto righteousness and with my mouth I confessed unto salvation.

I had human love prior to that day and I had religion prior to that day. But, that day and ever since I had the Love of God shed abroad in my heart by the Holy Spirit and the difference was night and day to me.

Rom 5:5  And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Those who hear the message of UR the first time always ask "Why get saved then if all will eventually be saved anyway"? I always answer because I want all people to experience a relationship with God through Jesus Christ and I want all to know the Love of God which passes all understanding like I have.

I love my Buddhist and Muslim and Hindu neighbors as myself and want them to not be outside the covenants of God and without hope and without God in the world as I was before I received Christ by faith. He is the only door to knowing God and knowing the Love of God. I will have to stick with the Bible and my own life experiences on this one. I believe that we must respect all peoples regardless of their beliefs, but telling people that all beliefs allow people to know God and know God's Love is not loving them because it leaves them without God as we all were before we knew Jesus.

Eph 2:12  That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Eph 2:13  But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

My concern is that UR has become another move where we sit on our ivory couches at ease in Zion sharing our heavy revies back and forth, but are no longer grieved for those who are still outside of the covenant of God and without hope and without God in the world. In fact, some would have us believe that Paul was mistaken and no one is outside of the covenants of God and without God in this world. These are God's own words to me, but maybe not to you. I understand that. But to me God is the one who said that we were without hope and without God when we were in the world. So, this is the status of those who have not received Christ...

Peace,

John"

[Gab]

I've actually had similar thoughts - although, I'm not sure if it's so much that more people know God as much as it's that a different set of people know God than people think.  I imagine that this may sound strange to most, but I've actually wondered for quite a while what it really means to believe in Jesus, as in verses such as John 3:16.  I know that there's the obvious literal interpretation of it, but to be honest that has always troubled me and left me unsatisfied, for the simple reason that it seems incongruent to certain other things we are told in the Bible.

For example, when asked what the greatest commandments is, Jesus replies that it is to love God and love your neighbor as yourself.  And Matthew 25:31-46 has always suggested to me that it is the case that we are to love God precisely by loving our neighbor - in other words, that the two commandments are the same thing.  Where, then, does literal belief in Jesus come into play?

Or, as another example, we are told in 1 John 4:7 that "everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God."  Again, there's nothing in here about literal belief in Jesus; it's all about love.

Even more interesting, as well, is the seeming repetition in these three verses:

'If we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us." (1 John 4:12)

"If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God." (1 John 4:15)

"Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him." (1 John 4:16)

The similarities here would almost indicate that these statements, all of which have the same result at the end, are in fact talking about identical things.

Further muddying the waters for me, so to speak, is the Greek word pisteuo, which when applied to a known figure such as Jesus refers not to factual belief, but rather belief one might hold in one's spiritual leader - trust and confidence in that person, in other words.

All of this comes together to give me a very strange idea, but which seems to fit the more I think about it: what if it is the case that believing in Jesus actually is equivalent to living in love?  That is to say, what if the "belief" in Jesus spoken of is actually the belief one may hold deep in one's heart that the attitude and frame of mind advocated by Jesus is the one in which one ought to live, and therefore is an emotional belief in Jesus rather than a factual one?

I have often wondered to myself who is more a Christian: one who fervently believes that Jesus is the son of God but who treats anyone who believes differently with disdain, arrogance, and contempt, or one who does not know if Jesus is the son of God, but who believes strongly that his instructions ought to be followed?  What is a Christian: is it one who knows vast expanses of scripture by heart, or is it one who has been touched by the love of God - whether they know it or not - and in whose heart the love of God thus dwells?  After all, we are told that to love is to know God, and that we love because God first loved us.  How, then, can it be claimed that one who loves does not know God?  And how can it be claimed that God does not live in them and that they are not born of God, when we are clearly told that that is the case for all who love?

I don't claim to be an expert in theology, nor do I claim to know the scriptures in and out - but I do know that the above sits orders of magnitude better with me than any other explanation I've heard.

[jabcat]

And then there's this  :bigGrin::

"that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;"  Romans 10:9

[jabcat]

Or, as another example, we are told in 1 John 4:7 that "everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God."  Again, there's nothing in here about literal belief in Jesus; it's all about love.

Even more interesting, as well, is the seeming repetition in these two verses:

'If we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us." (1 John 4:12)

"If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God." (1 John 4:15)

"Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him." (1 John 4:16)

The similarities here would almost indicate that these statements, all of which have the same result at the end, are in fact talking about identical things.

Hi Gab.  I tend to see the 'love' verses quoted above as sort of "proof texts", i.e., true love in our heart shows/indicates there's been a renewal through new birth/belief on Jesus as Savior;  an evidence of, rather than having love brings that new birth.  My  :2c:.

[jabcat]

Maybe I'm old-fashioned, and I hope I don't go the way of the dinosaur, but I still believe in gettin' saved  :bigGrin:.

All by His mercy and grace  :thumbsup:.

[Gab]

Hi Gab.  I tend to see the 'love' verses quoted above as sort of "proof texts", i.e., true love in our heart shows/indicates there's been a renewal through new birth/belief on Jesus as Savior;  an evidence of, rather than having love brings that new birth.  My  :2c:.

Yes, I've heard that take on it before, but the problem I've had with that explanation is that it implicitly flips the order of wording in 1 John 4.  The passage doesn't say that "everyone who has been born of God and knows God loves"; it says the reverse of that.  And I think than this is a key point, really - were it the case that love is merely an indicator of knowledge of God, rather than that love leads to the knowledge of God, one would expect the order to be as above.  As it stands, it says that everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.  And that's the big stumbling block between me and the acceptance of the standard focus typically given to the factual belief in who Jesus was.  The only way I could see, then, to claim that only Christians know God and are born of God is to claim that Christians are the only ones who love.  And this is just plainly not the case, just from my own personal anecdotal evidence.

I'm not saying that I don't believe in getting saved, so to speak - I just question what it truly is that brings that salvation.  Both my brain and my heart are telling me that it isn't what most assume it to be, and I find it difficult to shut them up. :laughing7:

[jabcat]

I understand what you're saying about "flipping the order of the verses".  I don't know if a Greek Interlinear look would change anything about the order of the words or not.  I'd guess not.

I thought about that too, however, what I think about next then, and what makes that approach fit from my perspective, is more of a contextual/attempting to reconcile the whole of scripture thing (which seems what you're probably doing as well, probably just from a different angle).  So for me, there are too many explicit scriptures that indicate specifically being called, chosen, elected in this lifetime (though I do believe ALL will eventually be saved); and as I understand, that involves a specific calling on the name of Jesus/active belief upon Jesus as the crucified and risen Savior and Son of God.  I believe the scriptures are there.  So as I believe all scripture is reconciled and it's just a matter of my being able to see it clearly or not, then I can't do away with all those specific passages about a direct, active faith unto salvation - based on the Name and the blood - though I do believe it's a faith given by God, to whom, and when He sees fit and serves His purposes and plans.  Some now and all later.  And all by His grace and mercy.  We're saved by grace through faith, and not of ourselves lest any man should boast.

Good talkin' with you.  Carry on.  James.

[Gab]

I understand what you're saying, but still, there's a certain thing to what you're saying that doesn't quite click to me.  I know it speaks of being saved through faith and such - but, again, this raises the question of "what faith"?  As has been noted elsewhere, the Bible, properly translated, speaks of "faith of Jesus", not "faith in Jesus" - very similar to (and perhaps even speaking of the same thing as) the notion that we love because God first loved us.

I think the reason why I think this matters is because this issue centers in some respects around the notion of what one ought to focus on when out in the world speaking to people.  The people I see spreading the Good News typically focus on the belief that Jesus is Lord and the Son of God first and foremost.  Yet, I sometimes wonder if this is the right approach.  I've found people generally tend to balk heavily at the factual portions of Jesus' story - the virgin birth, the ascension into heaven, and so on - but when I instead start talking about love for all, I always feel that they then start to "get it", so to speak, in the sense that they feel they could really sign on to that sort of thing.  And that makes me wonder, if indeed the two most important commandments of all both are fundamentally about love, whether or not even some of Jesus' most devout followers have in some sense missed what it's all really about.  1 Corinthians 13 tells us, after all, that love is even greater than faith.

[jesushandsarekindhands]

That's an interesting topic.

I know Atheists with no hope in an after life, or ultimate justice or anything like that who are better people than many Christians by their fruits, who do good only from the love of their own hearts, and I would rather have them as my friend anyday. 
I also know of 'Christians' (I use the term broadly), who only like other people if they are Christians.  (In fact they claim to LOVE others who are Christians, but the moment that person that they love strays from the faith) they HATE them lol.

[jabcat]

As we think this through, there's just one more verse I'd like to add:

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.  John 14:6

[Chris]

As we think this through, there's just one more verse I'd like to add:

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.  John 14:6

Hi James,

If you don't know "the name" of the fireman who ran into your burning home and dragged you out it, saving your life, does that mean that he didn't or wasn't the one who saved you?  :gwink:

Truly, if we are to believe the scriptures, then Jesus Christ IS the way, the truth and the life and it ONLY THROUGH HIM that men are saved, but Jesus saved us while we were yet sinners (before we ever even knew Him or His name) did He not?  :girlheart:

[Chris]

Nice thoughts Gab. Lots to think about for sure.  :thumbsup:

It seems to me that if it is "the doers" of the law who are "justified" and we can do "by nature" the things contained in the law (judged without the law and becoming a law unto ourselves) then there just might be more to it then just knowing and professing "the name" of Jesus Christ??

I also see it as the faith OF Jesus Christ that saves us - as it is HE who is "the author and finisher of it" (making it HIS FAITH that we are to walk in and not just "our own").

I actually have a great deal of respect for those who refuse to trust is the "god" that is presented to them through traditional Christian theology - whether that be due to just plain old "common sense" or "the love of God" being made manifest in their hearts.

Bottom line is still that it is "by their fruits" that we shall know them and there are plenty of those who profess the name of Jesus who show no or very little fruit of the spirit and there are some who "deny Him" (at least as an outward confession of faith) who exhibit that which we are told is "the fruit of the spirit". So not just a black/white issue, I don't guess. 

[Gab]

As we think this through, there's just one more verse I'd like to add:

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.  John 14:6

Yes, I know of that verse, but I sometimes wonder: is that describing what someone must do to come to the Father, or rather simply how someone comes to the Father when they do?  That verse tells me that Jesus opened the way to life, but I personally am unsure whether it's intended as an implicit command or simply a statement of fact.  Jesus states that verse you quote in response to Thomas' question of "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" (John 14:5), and he later states that, "Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him." (John 14:21)

If indeed it is the case that whoever does what Jesus has commanded (as we are told) is one who loves Jesus, and will be loved by the Father, by Jesus, and that Jesus will show himself to that person, then it seems to me that this would at least appear to corroborate the interpretation of 1 John 4 as saying that love leads to knowledge of God rather than solely the other way around.  After all, what did Jesus command that did not have its roots in love?

Like I said, though, I'm not an expert - just makin' observations.

Nice thoughts Gab. Lots to think about for sure.  :thumbsup:

It seems to me that if it is "the doers" of the law who are "justified" and we can do "by nature" the things contained in the law (judged without the law and becoming a law unto ourselves) then there just might be more to it then just knowing and professing "the name" of Jesus Christ??

I also see it as the faith OF Jesus Christ that saves us - as it is HE who is "the author and finisher of it" (making it HIS FAITH that we are to walk in and not just "our own").

I actually have a great deal of respect for those who refuse to trust is the "god" that is presented to them through traditional Christian theology - whether that be due to just plain old "common sense" or "the love of God" being made manifest in their hearts.

Bottom line is still that it is "by their fruits" that we shall know them and there are plenty of those who profess the name of Jesus who show no or very little fruit of the spirit and there are some who "deny Him" (at least as an outward confession of faith) who exhibit that which we are told is "the fruit of the spirit". So not just a black/white issue, I don't guess. 

Yes, that's kind of what I'm saying - is the knowledge of God associated with love intellectual knowledge or emotional knowledge?  The more I read, the more I feel that it's the latter - that it's not so much a matter of intellectually saying to oneself, "Yes, Jesus is Lord and the Son of God; I know that," but instead is a matter of feeling and embracing deep in one's heart the love that we are told that is none other than God.

It's kind of in this way that I feel that the statement that "God is love" says much more than some give it credit - there are many who say in response to that, "Well, yes, God is love, but he is also just," but I feel that this is missing an entire segment of the message.  God is not justice; the only nouns that he is literally equated to are "spirit" and "love" (there are others in the Old Testament like "rock" and "fire", but these are clearly intended as metaphors since God is not physical).  As a result, I firmly believe that those are, in effect, not merely describing God but also describing the way in which we experience God on Earth - in other words, when we experience love, we are experiencing God.  And it's in this way that I feel that people may know God without even knowing that they know God - "Oh, that love I felt on Earth, that was YOU!  I never knew!" :laughing7:

[jabcat]

As we think this through, there's just one more verse I'd like to add:

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.  John 14:6

Hi James,

If you don't know "the name" of the fireman who ran into your burning home and dragged you out it, saving your life, does that mean that he didn't or wasn't the one who saved you?  :gwink:

Truly, if we are to believe the scriptures, then Jesus Christ IS the way, the truth and the life and it ONLY THROUGH HIM that men are saved, but Jesus saved us while we were yet sinners (before we ever even knew Him or His name) did He not?  :girlheart:

Hi Chris and Gab.  The scripture is that Jesus DIED for us while we were yet sinners.  Taking together, and attempting to reconcile various scriptures, I believe there still must be a specific, individual moment for each, when God gives the faith to actively believe on Jesus as Savior.  Like I said earlier, I may be old fashioned, but I still believe in getting saved.  In fact, I'll still call it being born again.  Some now, the rest later.  IMO, that's where the "especially of those believing" comes in.  Take care, James.

[Gab]

Hi Chris and Gab.  The scripture is that Jesus DIED for us while we were yet sinners.  Taking together, and attempting to reconcile various scriptures, I believe there still must be a specific, individual moment for each, when God gives the faith to actively believe on Jesus as Savior.  Like I said earlier, I may be old fashioned, but I still believe in getting saved.  In fact, I'll still call it being born again.  Some now, the rest later.  IMO, that's where the "especially of those believing" comes in.  Take care, James.

Well, I actually completely agree that each human who turns from his or her life of sin is born again.  Unlike some Christian terminology, that term is even actually right in the Bible itself:

"I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again (gennethe anothen, may-be-being-created/begotten from-above/anew)." (John 3:3)

But then this brings us back to 1 John 4 again -

"Everyone who loves has been born of God (ek tou theon gegennetai, out of God has-been-created/begotten) and knows God." (1 John 4:7)

So even on the subject of being born again, we're basically back to where we started: does love come from being born again, or does love bring one to be born again?  In other words, does one accept Jesus and then begin to love, or is it through the love that one feels that one is able to accept Jesus (emotionally, even if not intellectually)?  As I said before, given that I know from personal experience that born-again Christians are not the only ones capable of love, I tend to thus tilt more towards the latter interpretation than the former.

[jabcat]

Acts 17:22And Paul, having stood in the midst of the Areopagus, said, `Men, Athenians, in all things I perceive you as over-religious;

23for passing through and contemplating your objects of worship, I found also an erection on which had been inscribed: To God -- unknown; whom, therefore -- not knowing -- ye do worship, this One I announce to you.

24`God, who did make the world, and all things in it, this One, of heaven and of earth being Lord, in temples made with hands doth not dwell,

25neither by the hands of men is He served -- needing anything, He giving to all life, and breath, and all things;

26He made also of one blood every nation of men, to dwell upon all the face of the earth -- having ordained times before appointed, and the bounds of their dwellings --

27to seek the Lord, if perhaps they did feel after Him and find, -- though, indeed, He is not far from each one of us,

28for in Him we live, and move, and are; as also certain of your poets have said: For of Him also we are offspring.

29`Being, therefore, offspring of God, we ought not to think the Godhead to be like to gold, or silver, or stone, graving of art and device of man;

30the times, indeed, therefore, of the ignorance God having overlooked, doth now command all men everywhere to reform,

31because He did set a day in which He is about to judge the world in righteousness, by a man whom He did ordain, having given assurance to all, having raised him out of the dead.'

[Gab]

Could I trouble you for some commentary on that?  I'm not sure I quite understand what you're intending to say, and I'd prefer not to risk assuming an incorrect meaning.

[claypot]

So even on the subject of being born again, we're basically back to where we started: does love come from being born again, or does love bring one to be born again?  In other words, does one accept Jesus and then begin to love, or is it through the love that one feels that one is able to accept Jesus (emotionally, even if not intellectually)?  As I said before, given that I know from personal experience that born-again Christians are not the only ones capable of love, I tend to thus tilt more towards the latter interpretation than the former.

I too think the latter for sure because I read that we love Him because He first loves/loved us. It's God (God's love) that frees us and what is being saved but being set free?

cp

[Tim B]

I've actually had similar thoughts - although, I'm not sure if it's so much that more people know God as much as it's that a different set of people know God than people think.  I imagine that this may sound strange to most, but I've actually wondered for quite a while what it really means to believe in Jesus, as in verses such as John 3:16.  I know that there's the obvious literal interpretation of it, but to be honest that has always troubled me and left me unsatisfied, for the simple reason that it seems incongruent to certain other things we are told in the Bible.

For example, when asked what the greatest commandments is, Jesus replies that it is to love God and love your neighbor as yourself.  And Matthew 25:31-46 has always suggested to me that it is the case that we are to love God precisely by loving our neighbor - in other words, that the two commandments are the same thing.  Where, then, does literal belief in Jesus come into play?

Or, as another example, we are told in 1 John 4:7 that "everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God."  Again, there's nothing in here about literal belief in Jesus; it's all about love.

Even more interesting, as well, is the seeming repetition in these three verses:

'If we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us." (1 John 4:12)

"If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God." (1 John 4:15)

"Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him." (1 John 4:16)

The similarities here would almost indicate that these statements, all of which have the same result at the end, are in fact talking about identical things.

Further muddying the waters for me, so to speak, is the Greek word pisteuo, which when applied to a known figure such as Jesus refers not to factual belief, but rather belief one might hold in one's spiritual leader - trust and confidence in that person, in other words.

All of this comes together to give me a very strange idea, but which seems to fit the more I think about it: what if it is the case that believing in Jesus actually is equivalent to living in love?  That is to say, what if the "belief" in Jesus spoken of is actually the belief one may hold deep in one's heart that the attitude and frame of mind advocated by Jesus is the one in which one ought to live, and therefore is an emotional belief in Jesus rather than a factual one?

I have often wondered to myself who is more a Christian: one who fervently believes that Jesus is the son of God but who treats anyone who believes differently with disdain, arrogance, and contempt, or one who does not know if Jesus is the son of God, but who believes strongly that his instructions ought to be followed?  What is a Christian: is it one who knows vast expanses of scripture by heart, or is it one who has been touched by the love of God - whether they know it or not - and in whose heart the love of God thus dwells?  After all, we are told that to love is to know God, and that we love because God first loved us.  How, then, can it be claimed that one who loves does not know God?  And how can it be claimed that God does not live in them and that they are not born of God, when we are clearly told that that is the case for all who love?

I don't claim to be an expert in theology, nor do I claim to know the scriptures in and out - but I do know that the above sits orders of magnitude better with me than any other explanation I've heard.

Beautiful, Gab!  :thumbsup:

[jabcat]

.

Acts 17:22And Paul, having stood in the midst of the Areopagus, said, `Men, Athenians, in all things I perceive you as over-religious;

23for passing through and contemplating your objects of worship, I found also an erection on which had been inscribed: To God -- unknown; whom, therefore -- not knowing -- ye do worship, this One I announce to you.

24`God, who did make the world, and all things in it, this One, of heaven and of earth being Lord, in temples made with hands doth not dwell,

25neither by the hands of men is He served -- needing anything, He giving to all life, and breath, and all things;

26He made also of one blood every nation of men, to dwell upon all the face of the earth -- having ordained times before appointed, and the bounds of their dwellings --

27to seek the Lord, if perhaps they did feel after Him and find, -- though, indeed, He is not far from each one of us,

28for in Him we live, and move, and are; as also certain of your poets have said: For of Him also we are offspring.

29`Being, therefore, offspring of God, we ought not to think the Godhead to be like to gold, or silver, or stone, graving of art and device of man;

30the times, indeed, therefore, of the ignorance God having overlooked, doth now command all men everywhere to reform,

31because He did set a day in which He is about to judge the world in righteousness, by a man whom He did ordain, having given assurance to all, having raised him out of the dead.'

Could I trouble you for some commentary on that?  I'm not sure I quite understand what you're intending to say, and I'd prefer not to risk assuming an incorrect meaning.

Hi Gab.  No big trouble  :bigGrin:.  I almost ALWAYS comment on any passage I post.  I actually struggled with the Lord about this one, wanting to add my 2 cents, but felt strongly restrained from doing so.  He impressed upon me that HE would have commentary/bring fruit from it, even if later on.  This time I'm going to let the scripture stand on its own merit.  Thanks, James

[jabcat]

Jesus has and does introduce himself to us - by name  :bigGrin:.

for "whoever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved."  How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?  Romans 10:12,13

'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.  Rev. 3:20


http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=7000.msg79580#msg79580

[Redlettervoice]

The Spirit of God will always know the Spirit of God.

When Jesus ascended, He sent His Spirit into the heart of the earth.

Now, he says, OUT of YOUR "belly" shall flow..............

So it is already there, just have to get thru that veil of unbelief to
get it "flowing."

That the the breaking of the first veil, mentioned in Hebrews 9:1

The earthly sancturary manifesting the unseen Spirit .......


Then..........the Lord works with us to pierce the veil of the INNER
MAn, this is the part Paul said of which I cannot NOW speak
particular.......but Jesus has INVITED us to that realm, in order
to find what is "hidden" behind that Spirit Man, more faith is required
but just read Hebrews 9......all the way thru to us being told to
therefore come boldly .......because the work has been done by
the Spirit, and we are invited to come to where Jesus ascended
where out forerunner hath entered.  This is a heavenly unseen realm.
Sort of like the church realm and the Kingdom realm.

This was sent into the earth.

Deep in the heart of man.

The enemy lies and says it's not so, but Jesus says it is. It will be
quickened to individuals, the word of God is a light unto the path
of any individuals......the timing of these events in one's life.....but
it does require the rayma word to cause the manifestation of what
is positionally true and settled forever in the mind of God.

Hope that is clear..........

[Seth]

Just a question. Do works come from faith, or are works good enough to cover unbelief? Does God consider the faithless to be faithful if they have works?

In other words is OUR OWN love and OUR OWN works of love good enough to cover the sin of unbelief?

So much for righteous by faith. I guess under this system we would not need to tell anyone about Christ. They already believe if we perceive them to be loving enough right, even if they never heard?

Romans 10:13-15
for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"

This becomes a moot scripture if their own love and their own good works can substitute for "the hearing of faith."

Galatians 3:5
He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Yet another moot scripture.

1 John 5:10
He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

So those who do hear the message and reject it, do NOT make God a liar? And those who have their own love and their own works still has the witness in himself that Jesus is the Son of God, so that they believe without believing?