2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 Are these people going to be saved?

[wilmont]

And yes the law of Moses does make people good or conform, to the laws standard.
The law does not 'ULTIMATELY PERFECT'  a person (you have to physically die to be like that).

No only the Spirit by faith can make anyone good, because none but God are good and he gives that Goodness as a gift of the Spirit. Nobody's own righteousness by the law is acceptable to God.

Again it is not for you determine or dictate to Gd who is righteous and by what means.

What does the Holy Word actually say?
Man was created Good.
Men were/are righteous and good.
Gd called Abraham good and a friend, and Elijah righteous?


Why am I persecuted for righteousness sake?
Because you think my righteousness conflicts with the letter of the law. :bgdance:

[Seth]

Again it is not for you determine or dictate to Gd who is righteous and by what means.

God dictates to me by His Word which I believe.

Why am I persecuted for righteousness sake?

You aren't. Do you think having a disagreement means you are being persecuted?

[wilmont]

I don't see how Christians can understand or define righteousness the way of the Rabbinics (original conformity to the law), and then deny that a person is justified by how they define it in their concept of Jesus?

I base my statements on the clear teaching of the New Testament.

Not really.
You fundamentaly (if I may take liberty with that word), use the Jewish definition of justification, to try to validate a gnostic spiritual belief in a man, who had to physically die in order to be ultimaely justified (freed from sin).
In other words, think of justification as being freed from sin.
No man is totaly freed from sin in our present state...whether by a mystical spiritual view, or a letter of the law view.

[wilmont]

Again it is not for you determine or dictate to Gd who is righteous and by what means.

God dictates to me by His Word which I believe.

Why am I persecuted for righteousness sake?

You aren't. Do you think having a disagreement means you are being persecuted?

I was being humerous.....persecuted for righteousness sake means righteouness in conflict with "letter of law" (mostly halacha interpretation in NT).

[Seth]

In other words, think of justification as being freed from sin.
No man is totaly freed from sin in our present state...whether by a mystical spiritual view, or a letter of the law view.

Justification is indeed being freed from sin.

Man is not freed from sin by the letter of the law. That much is evident, because sin dwells within. For that cause a man must be circumcised in the heart by the Spirit. This is the truth.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I agree Seth, but it's more than just a cover-up, it's the catalyst. I knew not what sin was, until the law came, and sin which was in my inner parts, revived and taking occasion by the law, slew me. Paraphrased for my own clarity, LOL.........

He brought it to stir up leviathan and make us see what was in our hearts, just like He told the Israelites that He had taken them out into the wilderness to show them what was in their's, and just like He took Eve out of Adam so he could see his own stony (calcium's a mineral) heart. Blessings.....

[Seth]

I was being humerous.....persecuted for righteousness sake means righteouness in conflict with "letter of law" (mostly halacha interpretation in NT).

No righteousness is in conflict with the letter of the law. Just that the letter of law does not make anyone righteous.

Example previously provided: Had Jane not wanted to commit adultery in the first place, she would not have needed to remember the letter. That is what Paul means by saying that Gentiles can by nature do the things which are in the law (like not committing adultery) without having the law. Your own example underscores the whole point.

[wilmont]

Think about it?

A person is weak at a moment in time...they are thinking about adultery...they then remember the LAW.  They don't want the condemnation (as Jesus so taught), so they choose not to.

Gd says to them;

"You piece of feces......you thought about it!  There is nothing good in you at all....if it wasnt for the law...you would have done it!...why did I even create you to begin with"

Gd really says:

"Thank you for being obedient, because I could not stand to see you ruin your life that I gave you...try to think of better thoughts"

[Seth]

:cloud9: I agree Seth, but it's more than just a cover-up, it's the catalyst. I knew not what sin was, until the law came, and sin which was in my inner parts, revived and taking occasion by the law, slew me. Paraphrased for my own clarity, LOL.........

He brought it to stir up leviathan and make us see what was in our hearts, just like He told the Israelites that He had taken them out into the wilderness to show them what was in their's, and just like He took Eve out of Adam so he could see his own stony (calcium's a mineral) heart. Blessings.....

Beautiful, Card.  :HeartThrob:

[wilmont]

In other words, think of justification as being freed from sin.
No man is totaly freed from sin in our present state...whether by a mystical spiritual view, or a letter of the law view.

Justification is indeed being freed from sin.

Man is not freed from sin by the letter of the law. That much is evident, because sin dwells within. For that cause a man must be circumcised in the heart by the Spirit. This is the truth.

Some people are freed from sin the best they can in this present age,  by doing the letter of the law.
No sin does not dwell within a man...as a man THINKS so he does (cause of the hand that sins).  Sin is an action.
There is alot of real good in people (righteousness too).

[Seth]

"You piece of feces......you thought about it!  There is nothing good in you at all....if it wasnt for the law...you would have done it!...why did I even create you to begin with"

I never said God would act that way. What would happen in a time of weakness like that is GRACE, which teaches us to abandon the lusts of the flesh. Therefore if a Gentile never even heard of the Law of Moses yet received Christ (Romans 9:30) would not need to live by the letter should those issues come up. They would be walking by the Spirit instead.

[wilmont]

Think like this, raise your children this way;

You are a good creation that sins once in awhile

not

You are a bad creation that does good once in awhile

[Seth]

Some people are freed from sin the best they can in this present age,  by doing the letter of the law.

Untrue.

[Seth]

Think like this, raise your children this way;

You are a good creation that sins once in awhile

not

You are a bad creation that does good once in awhile

I will teach the truth: In their flesh is no good thing, but Christ is their deliverance so that it is Him that does good through them.

[wilmont]

"You piece of feces......you thought about it!  There is nothing good in you at all....if it wasnt for the law...you would have done it!...why did I even create you to begin with"

I never said God would act that way. What would happen in a time of weakness like that is GRACE, which teaches us to abandon the lusts of the flesh. Therefore if a Gentile never even heard of the Law of Moses yet received Christ (Romans 9:30) would not need to live by the letter should those issues come up. They would be walking by the Spirit instead.

And I already pointed out the falicious nature of the "walking in the spirit" arguments.

[wilmont]

Think like this, raise your children this way;

You are a good creation that sins once in awhile

not

You are a bad creation that does good once in awhile

I will teach the truth: In their flesh is no good thing, but Christ is their deliverance so that it is Him that does good through them.

What does Holy Word actually say?
He saw what He created and it was good.
If you want your children not to carry your guilt, to the fourth generation, then teach them they are a good creation that can do good things IN THEIR FLESH (remember ohr is both skin and light).

[Seth]

Yes I know you believe that "walking by the Spirit" is fallacious, you referred to it as some sort of belief in "magic." Very well, you can believe what you wish.

[wilmont]

Seth,
In Holy Word could you show how Israel atoned for transgression?
And then find in the same Holy Word where man sacrifice is authorized for this purpose?

Then why would you teach an unbiblical atonement?

I am just curious?
You would not lie to your children would you?

[Seth]

Think like this, raise your children this way;

You are a good creation that sins once in awhile

not

You are a bad creation that does good once in awhile

I will teach the truth: In their flesh is no good thing, but Christ is their deliverance so that it is Him that does good through them.

What does Holy Word actually say?
He saw what He created and it was good.
If you want your children not to carry your guilt, to the fourth generation, then teach them they are a good creation that can do good things IN THEIR FLESH (remember ohr is both skin and light).

Christ says "There are none good but God." That is what I will teach them. Then I will teach them that Christ will conform them to that image. I am able to reconcile that with statements about creation since the Spirit breathed: The sum of thy word is truth.

[wilmont]

Some people are freed from sin the best they can in this present age,  by doing the letter of the law.

Untrue.

Thats what you think and say.  Not what Gd says.

It is not only logically true but biblically (including the NT).

People that don't sin so much don't have as much conciousness of guilt.
With all respect that is also a Christian principle.

[wilmont]

Think like this, raise your children this way;

You are a good creation that sins once in awhile

not

You are a bad creation that does good once in awhile

I will teach the truth: In their flesh is no good thing, but Christ is their deliverance so that it is Him that does good through them.

What does Holy Word actually say?
He saw what He created and it was good.
If you want your children not to carry your guilt, to the fourth generation, then teach them they are a good creation that can do good things IN THEIR FLESH (remember ohr is both skin and light).

Christ says "There are none good but God." That is what I will teach them. Then I will teach them that Christ will conform them to that image. I am able to reconcile that with statements about creation since the Spirit breathed: The sum of thy word is truth.

Again, you take that out of context.
None is good as Gd, none is righteous as Gd, does not mean none is good or does good things, or none is righteous.

[Seth]

Seth,
In Holy Word could you show how Israel atoned for transgression?
And then find in the same Holy Word where man sacrifice is authorized for this purpose?

Then why would you teach an unbiblical atonement?

I am just curious?
You would not lie to your children would you?

Nope I would not lie to my children. But since I take the NT as a teaching authority, you might disagree with me on whether or not the sacrifices were a shadow of a man sacrifice sanctified and purposed by God.

[Seth]

Again, you take that out of context.
None is good as Gd, none is righteous as Gd, does not mean none is good or does good things, or none is righteous.

That's the point, to be conformed to the righteousness of God.

People do good things. That is why it is called having ones "own RIGHTEOUSNESS." But our own righteousness (good deeds), which are by the law, are as dirty rags.

[wilmont]

Seth,
In Holy Word could you show how Israel atoned for transgression?
And then find in the same Holy Word where man sacrifice is authorized for this purpose?

Then why would you teach an unbiblical atonement?

I am just curious?
You would not lie to your children would you?

Nope I would not lie to my children. But since I take the NT as a teaching authority, you might disagree with me on whether or not the sacrifices were a shadow of a man sacrifice sanctified and purposed by God.

Your teaching a doctrine from a group of writings called the NT.
If the temple and its implements were patterned after those in heaven (which is what the NT says), then why go to a place that has human sacrifice?  Tha does not come from NT, that comes from a bad doctrine.

The shadow or pattern is all men die and will become like the original OHR / LIGHT (skinless) and be with Gd.

[wilmont]

Thats alright...I have argued with Orthodox Jews on this too.
Many think sacrifices are not abstract symbols but to be taken literally...some of you are sort of the same "Roman letter of the law" folks.