2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 Are these people going to be saved?

[ChosenofGod37]

Verse 10 "And in all deception of the unrighteousness among the ones perishing, because they did not receive the love of the truth for them to be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send to them a supernatural working of deception, for them to believe the lie, 12 so that they shall be judged, all the ones not having believed the truth, but the ones having delighted in unrighteousness."

What do you believe these scriptures are teaching? According to 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 do these unrighteous people believe the love of the truth (Jesus) for them to go to heaven?

[Seth]

You asked, are these people going to be saved? Yes. After aionios judgment has done its work.

[ChosenofGod37]

Where do you find in the text "aionios" judgment? Are you reading more into the text than what it really says?

According to 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12, the unrighteous are going to perish because God deceived them to believe a lie. Why would God deceive the unrighteous to believe a lie not to be saved to turn around and save them? What is the point in doing that?

[peacemaker]

2 Thessalonians 1:10-12

When He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed; for our testimony to you was believed. To this end also we pray for you always, that our God will count you worthy of your calling, and fulfill every desire for goodness and the work of faith with power, so that the name of our Lord Jesus will be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

[ChosenofGod37]

OOOps. I meant 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12.

[Seth]

According to 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12, the unrighteous are going to perish because God deceived them to believe a lie. Why would God deceive the unrighteous to believe a lie not to be saved to turn around and save them? What is the point in doing that?

That is simple. God gives grace to the humble and resists the proud. He would do that to humble them.

[ChosenofGod37]

Seth,

Where from the text do you get people that "perish" are humbled by aionion judgment? Where below do you see "humbled" or "aionion" judgment for the meaning of perish?

ἀπόλλυμι (apollumi 622)
1. perish -ed, -eth
to destroy,. cause to perish. Here, middle (which is peculiar to NT Greek) used of the eternal doom of the sinner (chiefly by Paul and John) to be utterly and finally ruined and destroyed, to be lost, brought to nought, put to death.
Reference(s)
Mat 5:29, Mat 5:30, Mat 8:25, Mat 9:17, Mat 18:14, Mat 26:52, Mar 4:38, Luk 5:37, Luk 8:24, Luk 11:51, Luk 13:3, Luk 13:5, Luk 13:33, Luk 15:17, Luk 21:18, Joh 3:16, Joh 6:27, Joh 10:28, Joh 11:50, Act 5:37, Rom 2:12, 1Co 1:18, 1Co 8:11, 1Co 15:18, 2Co 2:15, 2Th 2:10, Heb 1:11, Jas 1:11, 1Pe 1:7, 2Pe 3:6, 2Pe 3:9, Jud 1:11
2. lose -eth, lost
to destroy utterly (stronger form ὄλλυμι (ollumi) to destroy) to lose utterly, the subject being the sufferer; the fundamental thought is, ruin, loss, what is lost to another, as a sheep, lost to the fold and the shepherd.
Reference(s)
Mat 10:6, Mat 10:39, Mat 10:39, Mat 10:42, Mat 15:24, Mat 16:25, Mat 16:25, Mar 8:35, Mar 8:35, Mar 9:41, Luk 9:24, Luk 9:24, Luk 9:25, Luk 15:4, Luk 15:4, Luk 15:6, Luk 15:8, Luk 15:9, Luk 15:24, Luk 15:32, Luk 17:33, Luk 17:33, Luk 19:10, Joh 6:12, Joh 6:39, Joh 12:25, Joh 17:12, Joh 18:9, 2Co 4:3, 2Jo 1:8
3. destroy -ed, -est
to destroy utterly (stronger form of ὄλλυμι (ollumi) to destroy). Homer uses it chiefly of death in battle, to kill; to lose utterly (the subject being the sufferer). The fundamental thought is not annihilation, but ruin, loss (as sheep, Mat 10:6; 15:24, etc.; Luk 15:4,6, lost to the fold and to the shepherd; so the lost son, Luk 15:24), to perish, come to an end (as bread, Joh 6:27; gold, 1Pe 1:7).
Reference(s)
Mat 2:13, Mat 10:28, Mat 12:14, Mat 21:41, Mat 22:7, Mat 27:20, Mar 1:24, Mar 3:6, Mar 9:22, Mar 11:18, Mar 12:9, Luk 4:34, Luk 6:9, Luk 17:27, Luk 17:29, Luk 19:47, Luk 20:16, Joh 10:10, Rom 14:15, 1Co 1:19, 1Co 10:9, 1Co 10:10, 2Co 4:9, Jas 4:12, Jud 1:5
4. destroyed (be)
(middle of destroy, 1, which see) to be destroyed, perish; of persons, to be put to death; of things, to be lost, ruined.
Reference(s)
1Co 10:9, 1Co 10:10
5. marred (be)
to destroy -wholly; middle or passive, as here, to be destroyed wholly, perish utterly.
Reference(s)
Mar 2:22
6. die [verb] -ed, -eth, -ing
to destroy wholly, cause to perish
(a) Middle, of persons, to be put to death.

[claypot]

Where do you find in the text "aionios" judgment? Are you reading more into the text than what it really says?

According to 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12, the unrighteous are going to perish because God deceived them to believe a lie. Why would God deceive the unrighteous to believe a lie not to be saved to turn around and save them? What is the point in doing that?

Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.  19  Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?  20  Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus? {repliest...: or, answerest again, or, disputest with God?}  21   Hath not the potter  power  over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?  22  [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his  power   known , endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: {fitted: or, made up}  23  And that he might make  known  the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,  24  Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?romans 9.18

Now what you have to ask yourself, Chosen, is who are the vessels of honor and who are the vessels of dishonor. Notice both vessels are made of the SAME lump. Could this be talking about each person? I know my essence is made up of both. I see much that is fitted for destruction within me and I see much that is divine (the Christ that lights every man that enters the world).

As to reading more into the text than it really says, the Good Book says that the natural mind receives not the things of God. If we read with the natural mind we will not receive Gods intended message yet if we read with the spiritual mind we will. Don't misunderstand, interpreting the physically written word with the spiritual mind may seem like reading more into the text than what it really says, but it isn't.

cp

[claypot]

Verse 10 "And in all deception of the unrighteousness among the ones perishing, because they did not receive the love of the truth for them to be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send to them a supernatural working of deception, for them to believe the lie, 12 so that they shall be judged, all the ones not having believed the truth, but the ones having delighted in unrighteousness."

What do you believe these scriptures are teaching? According to 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 do these unrighteous people believe the love of the truth (Jesus) for them to go to heaven?

All people are summed up in Adam.....As in Adam all die......1cor 15.22

We are all perishing. None of us, in Adam, received the love of the truth. God said, 'Don't eat' and we ate. All of us.

God said we were to die and we did in Adam. Adam was sent from the garden into a world (a life) of supernatural workings of deception. We all believe lies.

We all have delighted in unrighteousness. The 'fruit' was wonderful to look at, and looked good to eat, and would bring wisdom. This is what went on in Eve's thinking before she ate. She (us) contemplated and 'delighted in unrighteousness'.

Now, Chosen, you have to ask yourself, do you believe the rest of the message of God in 1Cor15.22, that in Christ all will be made alive?

cp

[ChosenofGod37]

CP,

Thank you for responding. The question was where in the definition of "perish" according to this passage do you find "humbled" or aionios" judgment as its meaning?

Romans 9 :18-24 teaches the greatness of God's character, seen especially in the grace, mercy, compassion, and forgiveness He grants sinners in Christ.( vessels of mercy) Continuing the analogy of a potter, Paul refers to those who God has chosen for salvation, but rather allowed to incur the just penalty for their sin - God's wrath.(prepared for destruction) By their own rejection of Him. God does not make men sinful, but He leaves them in sin they have chosen.

These Scriptures have nothing to do with your sin nature and your spirit man. We can only get revelation of God's word by the Holy Spirit and proper interpretation. Any other revelation is human reasoning of the Scriptures. People like to make the bible say what they want it to say to support any false doctrine there held in bondage to.

[ChosenofGod37]

Cp,

Again, the question was where in the definition of "perish" according to the passage do you find "humbled" or aionios" judgment as its meaning?

1 Cor 15:22 "For just as in Adam all die, in the same way also in Christ all will be given life."

This Scripture teaches that all "in Adam" (non-believers) die, all "in Christ" ( believers) are made alive ( born again).

[claypot]

CP,

These Scriptures have nothing to do with your sin nature and your spirit man. We can only get revelation of God's word by the Holy Spirit and proper interpretation. Any other revelation is human reasoning of the Scriptures. People like to make the bible say what they want it to say to support any false doctrine there held in bondage to.

Are you including yourself in this statement of yours or are you exempt from believing 'any false doctrines'?  Respectfully I ask you, do you think you could be held in bondage by any false doctrine?

By the way, I think all Scripture has to do with our sin nature and our spirit man as well as many other things.

cp

[claypot]

CP,

Thank you for responding. The question was where in the definition of "perish" according to this passage do you find "humbled" or aionios" judgment as its meaning?

Romans 9 :18-24 teaches the greatness of God's character, seen especially in the grace, mercy, compassion, and forgiveness He grants sinners in Christ.( vessels of mercy) Continuing the analogy of a potter, Paul refers to those who God has chosen for salvation, but rather allowed to incur the just penalty for their sin - God's wrath.(prepared for destruction) By their own rejection of Him. God does not make men sinful, but He leaves them in sin they have chosen.

Do you see that we all perish/ed in Adam?

When pride perishes, humility is revealed.

Judgment, IMO, by its nature, is not an eternal thing so it must be limited, thus aionious, as I understand it.

ChosenofGod, Who has God ultimately chosen for salvation in your opinion?

I did not choose to be a sinner. Did you? Did you wake up one day and say "Hmmmmmm, I think I'll be a sinner today?"

Did you really and sincerely do that Chosen?

cp

[ChosenofGod37]

Cp,

I appreciate your responses, but it is drawing focus away from the subject and question I have asked.

Yes, anyone can believe in a man made tradition without the guidance of the Holy Spirit and proper exegesis of Scripture.

[ChosenofGod37]

Cp,

Where do you find "aionios" judgment or "humbled" in 2 Thess 2:10-12 in the definition of perish as its meaning?

[claypot]

Cp,

Where do you find "aionios" judgment or "humbled" in 2 Thess 2:10-12 as the meaning of perish?

And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.  11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:  12  That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2thes10-12

I personally think perish means perish. Who is saying what you are asking?

It's the 'in them' part I see way differently from you I think.

cp

[ChosenofGod37]

Cp,

Again, I'm not asking you what you think. Where from the text do you get people that "perish" are humbled by aionion judgment? Where below do you see "humbled" or "aionion" judgment for the meaning of perish?

ἀπόλλυμι (apollumi 622)
1. perish -ed, -eth
to destroy,. cause to perish. Here, middle (which is peculiar to NT Greek) used of the eternal doom of the sinner (chiefly by Paul and John) to be utterly and finally ruined and destroyed, to be lost, brought to nought, put to death.
Reference(s)
Mat 5:29, Mat 5:30, Mat 8:25, Mat 9:17, Mat 18:14, Mat 26:52, Mar 4:38, Luk 5:37, Luk 8:24, Luk 11:51, Luk 13:3, Luk 13:5, Luk 13:33, Luk 15:17, Luk 21:18, Joh 3:16, Joh 6:27, Joh 10:28, Joh 11:50, Act 5:37, Rom 2:12, 1Co 1:18, 1Co 8:11, 1Co 15:18, 2Co 2:15, 2Th 2:10, Heb 1:11, Jas 1:11, 1Pe 1:7, 2Pe 3:6, 2Pe 3:9, Jud 1:11
2. lose -eth, lost
to destroy utterly (stronger form ὄλλυμι (ollumi) to destroy) to lose utterly, the subject being the sufferer; the fundamental thought is, ruin, loss, what is lost to another, as a sheep, lost to the fold and the shepherd.
Reference(s)
Mat 10:6, Mat 10:39, Mat 10:39, Mat 10:42, Mat 15:24, Mat 16:25, Mat 16:25, Mar 8:35, Mar 8:35, Mar 9:41, Luk 9:24, Luk 9:24, Luk 9:25, Luk 15:4, Luk 15:4, Luk 15:6, Luk 15:8, Luk 15:9, Luk 15:24, Luk 15:32, Luk 17:33, Luk 17:33, Luk 19:10, Joh 6:12, Joh 6:39, Joh 12:25, Joh 17:12, Joh 18:9, 2Co 4:3, 2Jo 1:8
3. destroy -ed, -est
to destroy utterly (stronger form of ὄλλυμι (ollumi) to destroy). Homer uses it chiefly of death in battle, to kill; to lose utterly (the subject being the sufferer). The fundamental thought is not annihilation, but ruin, loss (as sheep, Mat 10:6; 15:24, etc.; Luk 15:4,6, lost to the fold and to the shepherd; so the lost son, Luk 15:24), to perish, come to an end (as bread, Joh 6:27; gold, 1Pe 1:7).
Reference(s)
Mat 2:13, Mat 10:28, Mat 12:14, Mat 21:41, Mat 22:7, Mat 27:20, Mar 1:24, Mar 3:6, Mar 9:22, Mar 11:18, Mar 12:9, Luk 4:34, Luk 6:9, Luk 17:27, Luk 17:29, Luk 19:47, Luk 20:16, Joh 10:10, Rom 14:15, 1Co 1:19, 1Co 10:9, 1Co 10:10, 2Co 4:9, Jas 4:12, Jud 1:5
4. destroyed (be)
(middle of destroy, 1, which see) to be destroyed, perish; of persons, to be put to death; of things, to be lost, ruined.
Reference(s)
1Co 10:9, 1Co 10:10
5. marred (be)
to destroy -wholly; middle or passive, as here, to be destroyed wholly, perish utterly.
Reference(s)
Mar 2:22
6. die [verb] -ed, -eth, -ing
to destroy wholly, cause to perish
(a) Middle, of persons, to be put to death.

[claypot]

 

Cp,

Again, I'm not asking you what you think. Where from the text do you get people that "perish" are humbled by aionion judgment? Where below do you see "humbled" or "aionion" judgment for the meaning of perish?

Why do you think I see perish as 'humbled' or 'aionion judgment'?

cp

[claypot]

 

Cp,

Again, I'm not asking you what you think. Where from the text do you get people that "perish" are humbled by aionion judgment? Where below do you see "humbled" or "aionion" judgment for the meaning of perish?

And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.  11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:  12  That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2thes10-12

If the 'in them' means each person then I can see where the perishing of the man of sin within all people leads to humility.

'Them that perish' is all of us, right? All have sinned.......

Adam (all of us) was judged with a judgment that is not eternal. 'He' was sent forth from the garden, judged.

Adam perishes............is judged and humbled.

Perish does not mean judged or humbled but it is needed for a person to go from a state of unrighteousness to a state of holiness.

This is the best I can do I think. Sorry.

cp

[sparrow]

Verse 10 "And in all deception of the unrighteousness among the ones perishing, because they did not receive the love of the truth for them to be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send to them a supernatural working of deception, for them to believe the lie, 12 so that they shall be judged, all the ones not having believed the truth, but the ones having delighted in unrighteousness."

What do you believe these scriptures are teaching? According to 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 do these unrighteous people believe the love of the truth (Jesus) for them to go to heaven?

All people are summed up in Adam.....As in Adam all die......1cor 15.22

We are all perishing. None of us, in Adam, received the love of the truth. God said, 'Don't eat' and we ate. All of us.

God said we were to die and we did in Adam. Adam was sent from the garden into a world (a life) of supernatural workings of deception. We all believe lies.

We all have delighted in unrighteousness. The 'fruit' was wonderful to look at, and looked good to eat, and would bring wisdom. This is what went on in Eve's thinking before she ate. She (us) contemplated and 'delighted in unrighteousness'.

Now, Chosen, you have to ask yourself, do you believe the rest of the message of God in 1Cor15.22, that in Christ all will be made alive?

cp

Great post.

[ChosenofGod37]

Cp,

you said:
Perish does not mean judged or humbled but it is needed for a person to go from a state of unrighteousness to a state of holiness.

Where do you see this definition of perish as this meaning? Look above for perish meaning according to the text.

Cp, We are all born "in Adam" (not saved) but those who repent and believe in Jesus are "in Christ" (saved).

Perish does not mean going from a state of unrighteousness to a state of holiness. You go from a state of unrighteousness to a state of righteousness through faith in Jesus. (2 Corinthians 5:21.)

2 Corinthians 5:21 "For the one not having known sin, He (Jesus) made sin on our behalf, so that we shall become the RIGHTEOUSNESS of God in Him (Jesus).

No aionion purification of sins (unrighteousness) needed. Jesus imputed His righteousness to those who believe in Him and in return we impute our unrighteousness(sin) to Him. Those who die in their sins (the unrighteous, those who remain in Adam), perish for the ages of ages (fig, forever).

Hope this helps. God bless.

[Shadow]

Cp,

you said:
Perish does not mean judged or humbled but it is needed for a person to go from a state of unrighteousness to a state of holiness.

Where do you see this definition of perish as this meaning? Look above for perish meaning according to the text.

Cp, We are all born "in Adam" (not saved) but those who repent and believe in Jesus are "in Christ" (saved).

Perish does not mean going from a state of unrighteousness to a state of holiness. You go from a state of unrighteousness to a state of righteousness through the blood of Jesus. (2 Corinthians 5:21.)

2 Corinthians 5:21 "For the one not having known sin, He (Jesus) made sin on our behalf, so that we shall become the RIGHTEOUSNESS of God in Him (Jesus).

No aionion purification of sins (unrighteousness) needed. Jesus imputed His righteousness to those who believe in Him and in return we impute our unrighteousness(sin) to Him. Those who reject forgiveness of their sins (the unrighteous), perish for the ages of ages (fig, forever).

Hope this helps. God bless.

In other words according to you the word perish, means that they will be subjected to eternal torture forever, why don't you just come right out and say what you mean instead of pussyfooting around the mulberry bush

Perhaps you can answer this question

If God is all good, all knowing and all powerful, Why would he place somebody in a position to even be in such a predicament in the first place, surely being all knowing he would have foreseen it, but let it happen anyway


Funny I always thought Romans 6v23 as saying

Romans 6:23 (King James Version). 23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

the way ETers such as yourself see it as saying

Romans 6:23 (King James Version). 23For the wages of sin eternal life in torture; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

[ChosenofGod37]

Hey Shadow,

No, perish means what the original writer says it means. Look above for it's meaning.

you said:
If God is all good, all knowing and all powerful, Why would he place somebody in a position to even be in such a predicament in the first place, surely being all knowing he would have foreseen it, but let it happen anyway.

You answered your own question. God ordained it, foresaw it and let it happen. (Acts 4:27-28 ; Eph 1:11)

The wages of sin is death(dying in Adam) eternal ( fig, forever). The free gift of eternal ( fig, forever) life is in Christ our Lord. Life in Christ is eternal. Death in Adam is also eternal.

Hope this helps. God bless.

[Shadow]

You still have not answered my question, are people according to you going to be tortured forever, if so why would God allow such a monstrosity to occur, why can't people just choose nonexistence if they so choose

[Seth]

Seth,

Where from the text do you get people that "perish" are humbled by aionion judgment? Where below do you see "humbled" or "aionion" judgment for the meaning of perish?

Interesting that now YOU are bringing "aionios" judgment into question. When you quoted the wrong verse and I referred to aionios judgment you said: "Where do you find in the text "aionios" judgment? Are you reading more into the text than what it really says?"

HMMMM.... :Whistle:

It appears I could ask you the same question.

You asked me "why would God do that?" in reference to why he would send them deception. I said he would do that to humble them.

Ecclesiastes 1:13
And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this evil (Hebrew - "ra" as in the ) travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised (Hebrew anah "humbled" or "brought low") therewith.

God gives the experience of evil so that man may be brought low, humbled.