Tentmaker Forum

Verse 10 "And in all deception of the unrighteousness among the ones perishing, because they did not receive the love of the truth for them to be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send to them a supernatural working of deception, for them to believe the lie, 12 so that they shall be judged, all the ones not having believed the truth, but the ones having delighted in unrighteousness."

What do you believe these scriptures are teaching? According to 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 do these unrighteous people believe the love of the truth (Jesus) for them to go to heaven?

You asked, are these people going to be saved? Yes. After aionios judgment has done its work.

Where do you find in the text "aionios" judgment? Are you reading more into the text than what it really says?

According to 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12, the unrighteous are going to perish because God deceived them to believe a lie. Why would God deceive the unrighteous to believe a lie not to be saved to turn around and save them? What is the point in doing that?

2 Thessalonians 1:10-12

When He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed; for our testimony to you was believed. To this end also we pray for you always, that our God will count you worthy of your calling, and fulfill every desire for goodness and the work of faith with power, so that the name of our Lord Jesus will be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

OOOps. I meant 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12.

QuoteAccording to 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12, the unrighteous are going to perish because God deceived them to believe a lie. Why would God deceive the unrighteous to believe a lie not to be saved to turn around and save them? What is the point in doing that?

That is simple. God gives grace to the humble and resists the proud. He would do that to humble them.

Seth,

Where from the text do you get people that "perish" are humbled by aionion judgment? Where below do you see "humbled" or "aionion" judgment for the meaning of perish?

ἀπόλλυμι (apollumi 622)
1. perish -ed, -eth
to destroy,. cause to perish. Here, middle (which is peculiar to NT Greek) used of the eternal doom of the sinner (chiefly by Paul and John) to be utterly and finally ruined and destroyed, to be lost, brought to nought, put to death.
Reference(s)
Mat 5:29, Mat 5:30, Mat 8:25, Mat 9:17, Mat 18:14, Mat 26:52, Mar 4:38, Luk 5:37, Luk 8:24, Luk 11:51, Luk 13:3, Luk 13:5, Luk 13:33, Luk 15:17, Luk 21:18, Joh 3:16, Joh 6:27, Joh 10:28, Joh 11:50, Act 5:37, Rom 2:12, 1Co 1:18, 1Co 8:11, 1Co 15:18, 2Co 2:15, 2Th 2:10, Heb 1:11, Jas 1:11, 1Pe 1:7, 2Pe 3:6, 2Pe 3:9, Jud 1:11
2. lose -eth, lost
to destroy utterly (stronger form ὄλλυμι (ollumi) to destroy) to lose utterly, the subject being the sufferer; the fundamental thought is, ruin, loss, what is lost to another, as a sheep, lost to the fold and the shepherd.
Reference(s)
Mat 10:6, Mat 10:39, Mat 10:39, Mat 10:42, Mat 15:24, Mat 16:25, Mat 16:25, Mar 8:35, Mar 8:35, Mar 9:41, Luk 9:24, Luk 9:24, Luk 9:25, Luk 15:4, Luk 15:4, Luk 15:6, Luk 15:8, Luk 15:9, Luk 15:24, Luk 15:32, Luk 17:33, Luk 17:33, Luk 19:10, Joh 6:12, Joh 6:39, Joh 12:25, Joh 17:12, Joh 18:9, 2Co 4:3, 2Jo 1:8
3. destroy -ed, -est
to destroy utterly (stronger form of ὄλλυμι (ollumi) to destroy). Homer uses it chiefly of death in battle, to kill; to lose utterly (the subject being the sufferer). The fundamental thought is not annihilation, but ruin, loss (as sheep, Mat 10:6; 15:24, etc.; Luk 15:4,6, lost to the fold and to the shepherd; so the lost son, Luk 15:24), to perish, come to an end (as bread, Joh 6:27; gold, 1Pe 1:7).
Reference(s)
Mat 2:13, Mat 10:28, Mat 12:14, Mat 21:41, Mat 22:7, Mat 27:20, Mar 1:24, Mar 3:6, Mar 9:22, Mar 11:18, Mar 12:9, Luk 4:34, Luk 6:9, Luk 17:27, Luk 17:29, Luk 19:47, Luk 20:16, Joh 10:10, Rom 14:15, 1Co 1:19, 1Co 10:9, 1Co 10:10, 2Co 4:9, Jas 4:12, Jud 1:5
4. destroyed (be)
(middle of destroy, 1, which see) to be destroyed, perish; of persons, to be put to death; of things, to be lost, ruined.
Reference(s)
1Co 10:9, 1Co 10:10
5. marred (be)
to destroy -wholly; middle or passive, as here, to be destroyed wholly, perish utterly.
Reference(s)
Mar 2:22
6. die [verb] -ed, -eth, -ing
to destroy wholly, cause to perish
(a) Middle, of persons, to be put to death.

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 15, 2009, 06:01:50 AM
Where do you find in the text "aionios" judgment? Are you reading more into the text than what it really says?

According to 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12, the unrighteous are going to perish because God deceived them to believe a lie. Why would God deceive the unrighteous to believe a lie not to be saved to turn around and save them? What is the point in doing that?

Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.  19  Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?  20  Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus? {repliest...: or, answerest again, or, disputest with God?}  21   Hath not the potter  power  over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?  22  [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his  power   known , endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: {fitted: or, made up}  23  And that he might make  known  the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,  24  Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?romans 9.18

Now what you have to ask yourself, Chosen, is who are the vessels of honor and who are the vessels of dishonor. Notice both vessels are made of the SAME lump. Could this be talking about each person? I know my essence is made up of both. I see much that is fitted for destruction within me and I see much that is divine (the Christ that lights every man that enters the world).

As to reading more into the text than it really says, the Good Book says that the natural mind receives not the things of God. If we read with the natural mind we will not receive Gods intended message yet if we read with the spiritual mind we will. Don't misunderstand, interpreting the physically written word with the spiritual mind may seem like reading more into the text than what it really says, but it isn't.

cp

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 15, 2009, 05:14:55 AM
Verse 10 "And in all deception of the unrighteousness among the ones perishing, because they did not receive the love of the truth for them to be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send to them a supernatural working of deception, for them to believe the lie, 12 so that they shall be judged, all the ones not having believed the truth, but the ones having delighted in unrighteousness."

What do you believe these scriptures are teaching? According to 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 do these unrighteous people believe the love of the truth (Jesus) for them to go to heaven?

All people are summed up in Adam.....As in Adam all die......1cor 15.22

We are all perishing. None of us, in Adam, received the love of the truth. God said, 'Don't eat' and we ate. All of us.

God said we were to die and we did in Adam. Adam was sent from the garden into a world (a life) of supernatural workings of deception. We all believe lies.

We all have delighted in unrighteousness. The 'fruit' was wonderful to look at, and looked good to eat, and would bring wisdom. This is what went on in Eve's thinking before she ate. She (us) contemplated and 'delighted in unrighteousness'.

Now, Chosen, you have to ask yourself, do you believe the rest of the message of God in 1Cor15.22, that in Christ all will be made alive?

cp

CP,

Thank you for responding. The question was where in the definition of "perish" according to this passage do you find "humbled" or aionios" judgment as its meaning?

Romans 9 :18-24 teaches the greatness of God's character, seen especially in the grace, mercy, compassion, and forgiveness He grants sinners in Christ.( vessels of mercy) Continuing the analogy of a potter, Paul refers to those who God has chosen for salvation, but rather allowed to incur the just penalty for their sin - God's wrath.(prepared for destruction) By their own rejection of Him. God does not make men sinful, but He leaves them in sin they have chosen.

These Scriptures have nothing to do with your sin nature and your spirit man. We can only get revelation of God's word by the Holy Spirit and proper interpretation. Any other revelation is human reasoning of the Scriptures. People like to make the bible say what they want it to say to support any false doctrine there held in bondage to.

Cp,

Again, the question was where in the definition of "perish" according to the passage do you find "humbled" or aionios" judgment as its meaning?

1 Cor 15:22 "For just as in Adam all die, in the same way also in Christ all will be given life."

This Scripture teaches that all "in Adam" (non-believers) die, all "in Christ" ( believers) are made alive ( born again).

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 15, 2009, 04:44:27 PM
CP,

These Scriptures have nothing to do with your sin nature and your spirit man. We can only get revelation of God's word by the Holy Spirit and proper interpretation. Any other revelation is human reasoning of the Scriptures. People like to make the bible say what they want it to say to support any false doctrine there held in bondage to.

Are you including yourself in this statement of yours or are you exempt from believing 'any false doctrines'?  Respectfully I ask you, do you think you could be held in bondage by any false doctrine?

By the way, I think all Scripture has to do with our sin nature and our spirit man as well as many other things.

cp

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 15, 2009, 04:44:27 PM
CP,

Thank you for responding. The question was where in the definition of "perish" according to this passage do you find "humbled" or aionios" judgment as its meaning?

Romans 9 :18-24 teaches the greatness of God's character, seen especially in the grace, mercy, compassion, and forgiveness He grants sinners in Christ.( vessels of mercy) Continuing the analogy of a potter, Paul refers to those who God has chosen for salvation, but rather allowed to incur the just penalty for their sin - God's wrath.(prepared for destruction) By their own rejection of Him. God does not make men sinful, but He leaves them in sin they have chosen.

Do you see that we all perish/ed in Adam?

When pride perishes, humility is revealed.

Judgment, IMO, by its nature, is not an eternal thing so it must be limited, thus aionious, as I understand it.

ChosenofGod, Who has God ultimately chosen for salvation in your opinion?

I did not choose to be a sinner. Did you? Did you wake up one day and say "Hmmmmmm, I think I'll be a sinner today?"

Did you really and sincerely do that Chosen?

cp

Cp,

I appreciate your responses, but it is drawing focus away from the subject and question I have asked.

Yes, anyone can believe in a man made tradition without the guidance of the Holy Spirit and proper exegesis of Scripture.

Cp,

Where do you find "aionios" judgment or "humbled" in 2 Thess 2:10-12 in the definition of perish as its meaning?

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 15, 2009, 05:39:41 PM
Cp,

Where do you find "aionios" judgment or "humbled" in 2 Thess 2:10-12 as the meaning of perish?

And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.  11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:  12  That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2thes10-12

I personally think perish means perish. Who is saying what you are asking?

It's the 'in them' part I see way differently from you I think.

cp

Cp,

Again, I'm not asking you what you think. Where from the text do you get people that "perish" are humbled by aionion judgment? Where below do you see "humbled" or "aionion" judgment for the meaning of perish?

ἀπόλλυμι (apollumi 622)
1. perish -ed, -eth
to destroy,. cause to perish. Here, middle (which is peculiar to NT Greek) used of the eternal doom of the sinner (chiefly by Paul and John) to be utterly and finally ruined and destroyed, to be lost, brought to nought, put to death.
Reference(s)
Mat 5:29, Mat 5:30, Mat 8:25, Mat 9:17, Mat 18:14, Mat 26:52, Mar 4:38, Luk 5:37, Luk 8:24, Luk 11:51, Luk 13:3, Luk 13:5, Luk 13:33, Luk 15:17, Luk 21:18, Joh 3:16, Joh 6:27, Joh 10:28, Joh 11:50, Act 5:37, Rom 2:12, 1Co 1:18, 1Co 8:11, 1Co 15:18, 2Co 2:15, 2Th 2:10, Heb 1:11, Jas 1:11, 1Pe 1:7, 2Pe 3:6, 2Pe 3:9, Jud 1:11
2. lose -eth, lost
to destroy utterly (stronger form ὄλλυμι (ollumi) to destroy) to lose utterly, the subject being the sufferer; the fundamental thought is, ruin, loss, what is lost to another, as a sheep, lost to the fold and the shepherd.
Reference(s)
Mat 10:6, Mat 10:39, Mat 10:39, Mat 10:42, Mat 15:24, Mat 16:25, Mat 16:25, Mar 8:35, Mar 8:35, Mar 9:41, Luk 9:24, Luk 9:24, Luk 9:25, Luk 15:4, Luk 15:4, Luk 15:6, Luk 15:8, Luk 15:9, Luk 15:24, Luk 15:32, Luk 17:33, Luk 17:33, Luk 19:10, Joh 6:12, Joh 6:39, Joh 12:25, Joh 17:12, Joh 18:9, 2Co 4:3, 2Jo 1:8
3. destroy -ed, -est
to destroy utterly (stronger form of ὄλλυμι (ollumi) to destroy). Homer uses it chiefly of death in battle, to kill; to lose utterly (the subject being the sufferer). The fundamental thought is not annihilation, but ruin, loss (as sheep, Mat 10:6; 15:24, etc.; Luk 15:4,6, lost to the fold and to the shepherd; so the lost son, Luk 15:24), to perish, come to an end (as bread, Joh 6:27; gold, 1Pe 1:7).
Reference(s)
Mat 2:13, Mat 10:28, Mat 12:14, Mat 21:41, Mat 22:7, Mat 27:20, Mar 1:24, Mar 3:6, Mar 9:22, Mar 11:18, Mar 12:9, Luk 4:34, Luk 6:9, Luk 17:27, Luk 17:29, Luk 19:47, Luk 20:16, Joh 10:10, Rom 14:15, 1Co 1:19, 1Co 10:9, 1Co 10:10, 2Co 4:9, Jas 4:12, Jud 1:5
4. destroyed (be)
(middle of destroy, 1, which see) to be destroyed, perish; of persons, to be put to death; of things, to be lost, ruined.
Reference(s)
1Co 10:9, 1Co 10:10
5. marred (be)
to destroy -wholly; middle or passive, as here, to be destroyed wholly, perish utterly.
Reference(s)
Mar 2:22
6. die [verb] -ed, -eth, -ing
to destroy wholly, cause to perish
(a) Middle, of persons, to be put to death.

 

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 15, 2009, 06:01:35 PM
Cp,

Again, I'm not asking you what you think. Where from the text do you get people that "perish" are humbled by aionion judgment? Where below do you see "humbled" or "aionion" judgment for the meaning of perish?

Why do you think I see perish as 'humbled' or 'aionion judgment'?

cp

 

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 15, 2009, 06:01:35 PM
Cp,

Again, I'm not asking you what you think. Where from the text do you get people that "perish" are humbled by aionion judgment? Where below do you see "humbled" or "aionion" judgment for the meaning of perish?

And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.  11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:  12  That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2thes10-12

If the 'in them' means each person then I can see where the perishing of the man of sin within all people leads to humility.

'Them that perish' is all of us, right? All have sinned.......

Adam (all of us) was judged with a judgment that is not eternal. 'He' was sent forth from the garden, judged.

Adam perishes............is judged and humbled.

Perish does not mean judged or humbled but it is needed for a person to go from a state of unrighteousness to a state of holiness.

This is the best I can do I think. Sorry.

cp

Quote from: claypot on August 15, 2009, 04:27:26 PM

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 15, 2009, 05:14:55 AM
Verse 10 "And in all deception of the unrighteousness among the ones perishing, because they did not receive the love of the truth for them to be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send to them a supernatural working of deception, for them to believe the lie, 12 so that they shall be judged, all the ones not having believed the truth, but the ones having delighted in unrighteousness."

What do you believe these scriptures are teaching? According to 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 do these unrighteous people believe the love of the truth (Jesus) for them to go to heaven?

All people are summed up in Adam.....As in Adam all die......1cor 15.22

We are all perishing. None of us, in Adam, received the love of the truth. God said, 'Don't eat' and we ate. All of us.

God said we were to die and we did in Adam. Adam was sent from the garden into a world (a life) of supernatural workings of deception. We all believe lies.

We all have delighted in unrighteousness. The 'fruit' was wonderful to look at, and looked good to eat, and would bring wisdom. This is what went on in Eve's thinking before she ate. She (us) contemplated and 'delighted in unrighteousness'.

Now, Chosen, you have to ask yourself, do you believe the rest of the message of God in 1Cor15.22, that in Christ all will be made alive?

cp

Great post.

Cp,

you said:
Perish does not mean judged or humbled but it is needed for a person to go from a state of unrighteousness to a state of holiness.

Where do you see this definition of perish as this meaning? Look above for perish meaning according to the text.

Cp, We are all born "in Adam" (not saved) but those who repent and believe in Jesus are "in Christ" (saved).

Perish does not mean going from a state of unrighteousness to a state of holiness. You go from a state of unrighteousness to a state of righteousness through faith in Jesus. (2 Corinthians 5:21.)

2 Corinthians 5:21 "For the one not having known sin, He (Jesus) made sin on our behalf, so that we shall become the RIGHTEOUSNESS of God in Him (Jesus).

No aionion purification of sins (unrighteousness) needed. Jesus imputed His righteousness to those who believe in Him and in return we impute our unrighteousness(sin) to Him. Those who die in their sins (the unrighteous, those who remain in Adam), perish for the ages of ages (fig, forever).

Hope this helps. God bless.

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 15, 2009, 07:27:01 PM
Cp,

you said:
Perish does not mean judged or humbled but it is needed for a person to go from a state of unrighteousness to a state of holiness.

Where do you see this definition of perish as this meaning? Look above for perish meaning according to the text.

Cp, We are all born "in Adam" (not saved) but those who repent and believe in Jesus are "in Christ" (saved).

Perish does not mean going from a state of unrighteousness to a state of holiness. You go from a state of unrighteousness to a state of righteousness through the blood of Jesus. (2 Corinthians 5:21.)

2 Corinthians 5:21 "For the one not having known sin, He (Jesus) made sin on our behalf, so that we shall become the RIGHTEOUSNESS of God in Him (Jesus).

No aionion purification of sins (unrighteousness) needed. Jesus imputed His righteousness to those who believe in Him and in return we impute our unrighteousness(sin) to Him. Those who reject forgiveness of their sins (the unrighteous), perish for the ages of ages (fig, forever).

Hope this helps. God bless.

In other words according to you the word perish, means that they will be subjected to eternal torture forever, why don't you just come right out and say what you mean instead of pussyfooting around the mulberry bush

Perhaps you can answer this question

If God is all good, all knowing and all powerful, Why would he place somebody in a position to even be in such a predicament in the first place, surely being all knowing he would have foreseen it, but let it happen anyway


Funny I always thought Romans 6v23 as saying

Romans 6:23 (King James Version). 23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

the way ETers such as yourself see it as saying

Romans 6:23 (King James Version). 23For the wages of sin eternal life in torture; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Hey Shadow,

No, perish means what the original writer says it means. Look above for it's meaning.

you said:
If God is all good, all knowing and all powerful, Why would he place somebody in a position to even be in such a predicament in the first place, surely being all knowing he would have foreseen it, but let it happen anyway.

You answered your own question. God ordained it, foresaw it and let it happen. (Acts 4:27-28 ; Eph 1:11)

The wages of sin is death(dying in Adam) eternal ( fig, forever). The free gift of eternal ( fig, forever) life is in Christ our Lord. Life in Christ is eternal. Death in Adam is also eternal.

Hope this helps. God bless.

You still have not answered my question, are people according to you going to be tortured forever, if so why would God allow such a monstrosity to occur, why can't people just choose nonexistence if they so choose

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 15, 2009, 07:46:01 AM
Seth,

Where from the text do you get people that "perish" are humbled by aionion judgment? Where below do you see "humbled" or "aionion" judgment for the meaning of perish?

Interesting that now YOU are bringing "aionios" judgment into question. When you quoted the wrong verse and I referred to aionios judgment you said: "Where do you find in the text "aionios" judgment? Are you reading more into the text than what it really says?"

HMMMM.... :Whistle:

It appears I could ask you the same question.

You asked me "why would God do that?" in reference to why he would send them deception. I said he would do that to humble them.

Ecclesiastes 1:13
And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this evil (Hebrew - "ra" as in the ) travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised (Hebrew anah "humbled" or "brought low") therewith.

God gives the experience of evil so that man may be brought low, humbled.

Shadow said:
You still have not answered my question, are people according to you going to be tortured forever, if so why would God allow such a monstrosity to occur, why can't people just choose nonexistence if they so choose

It's not up to me or anyone else Shadow. God's choice. Read Romans 9:14-25 for your answer.

Seth,

Man experiencing evil has nothing to do with perishing according to 2 Thess 2:10-12. :thumbsup:

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 15, 2009, 07:27:01 PM
Cp,

you said:
Perish does not mean judged or humbled but it is needed for a person to go from a state of unrighteousness to a state of holiness.

Where do you see this definition of perish as this meaning? Look above for perish meaning according to the text.

I think we must perish to the state of unrighteousness in order to go to the state of righteousness. I think it means what you say. We must die (perish) to the ungodly ways.

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 15, 2009, 07:27:01 PM

Cp, We are all born "in Adam" (not saved) but those who repent and believe in Jesus are "in Christ" (saved).

Chosen, did you do anything to be a sinner? Did you one day say "I think I'll choose to be a sinner today." ? No you are a sinner because you are in Adam. In Christ you are saved. Do you understand this? Your choices will follow the work of God in you for it is He who works in you to do and to will His good pleasure. Do you agree?

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 15, 2009, 07:27:01 PM
Perish does not mean going from a state of unrighteousness to a state of holiness. You go from a state of unrighteousness to a state of righteousness through faith in Jesus. (2 Corinthians 5:21.)

You are correct IMO. Perish means to cease to be. Exactly what I am saying. We, the old man (the faithless one), must perish for we, the new man (the faithful one-the Christ man), to be born. 

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 15, 2009, 07:27:01 PM
2 Corinthians 5:21 "For the one not having known sin, He (Jesus) made sin on our behalf, so that we shall become the RIGHTEOUSNESS of God in Him (Jesus).

Yes we shall! Amen!!!

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 15, 2009, 07:27:01 PM

No aionion purification of sins (unrighteousness) needed. Jesus imputed His righteousness to those who believe in Him and in return we impute our unrighteousness(sin) to Him. Those who die in their sins (the unrighteous, those who remain in Adam), perish for the ages of ages (fig, forever).

We impute our unrighteousness to Him? Aren't we the benevolent ones! I don't think we impute anything. I think He takes away the sin of the world.

I have died in my sins in Adam. God said to Adam, of whom I am in, "Eat and you die." I ate (sinned) and I died, period. I am judged and thrown out of the garden, in Adam. I am saved in Christ.

Chosen, do you really think someone can break what the Good Book says? Do you think someone who is dead in Adam will not be made alive in Christ? If you do then tis you who are denying The Word and God Himself IMO.

Just be careful my friend as I know I must be too. God has much for us to do here so we must have absolute and perfect faith in Him, that He will accomplish all His desire and we know what His desire is concerning everyone, don't we! Those of us who doubt what God can and is doing will only hinder His ultimate work.

cp

Cp,

you said:

I think we must perish to the state of unrighteousness in order to go to the state of righteousness. I think it means what you say. We must die (perish) to the ungodly ways.

Answer: Perish haS nothing to do with dying to ungodly ways. You add that meaning to perish.

you said

Chosen, did you do anything to be a sinner? Did you one day say "I think I'll choose to be a sinner today." ? No you are a sinner because you are in Adam. In Christ you are saved. Do you understand this? Your choices will follow the work of God in you for it is He who works in you to do and to will His good pleasure. Do you agree?

Answer: No, Adam represented the human race. when he fell, we fell.

you said:

We impute our unrighteousness to Him? Aren't we the benevolent ones! I don't think we impute anything. I think He takes away the sin of the world.

I have died in my sins in Adam. God said to Adam, of whom I am in, "Eat and you die." I ate (sinned) and I died, period. I am judged and thrown out of the garden, in Adam. I am saved in Christ.

Chosen, do you really think someone can break what the Good Book says? Do you think someone who is dead in Adam will not be made alive in Christ? If you do then tis you who are denying The Word and God Himself IMO.

Answer: Read 2 Corinthians 5:21 again we imputed our sins to a man that knew no sin so we can have His righteousness. Exchange there Cp. Jesus bores our sin and gives us His righteousness only when you believe.

Yes those who are spiritually dead in Adam (Eph 2:1) can come alive by grace to those who BELIEVE. yOU HAVE TO BELIEVE TO RECEIVE THIS RIGHTEOUSNESS. CP. Read Romans 4:3-6

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 15, 2009, 10:10:32 PM
Cp,

you said:

I think we must perish to the state of unrighteousness in order to go to the state of righteousness. I think it means what you say. We must die (perish) to the ungodly ways.

Answer: Perish haS nothing to do with dying to ungodly ways. You add that meaning to perish.

you said

Chosen, did you do anything to be a sinner? Did you one day say "I think I'll choose to be a sinner today." ? No you are a sinner because you are in Adam. In Christ you are saved. Do you understand this? Your choices will follow the work of God in you for it is He who works in you to do and to will His good pleasure. Do you agree?

Answer: No, Adam represented the human race. when he fell, we fell.

you said:

We impute our unrighteousness to Him? Aren't we the benevolent ones! I don't think we impute anything. I think He takes away the sin of the world.

I have died in my sins in Adam. God said to Adam, of whom I am in, "Eat and you die." I ate (sinned) and I died, period. I am judged and thrown out of the garden, in Adam. I am saved in Christ.

Chosen, do you really think someone can break what the Good Book says? Do you think someone who is dead in Adam will not be made alive in Christ? If you do then tis you who are denying The Word and God Himself IMO.

Answer: Read 2 Corinthians 5:21 again we imputed our sins to a man that knew no sin so we can have His righteousness. Exchange there Cp. Jesus bores our sin and gives us His righteousness only when you believe.

Yes those who are spiritually dead in Adam (Eph 2:1) can come alive by grace to those who BELIEVE. yOU HAVE TO BELIEVE TO RECEIVE THIS RIGHTEOUSNESS. CP. Read Romans 4:3-6

AND YOU HAVE TO BE GRACED BY GOD TO EVEN BELIEVE, CHOSEN

Hey Aspiring Son,

I agree. Salvation is by God's sovereign grace. God chooses man, not man chooses God. God doesn't choose everyone. He draws the elect and grants them repentance and faith to believe in Jesus.(Eph 1:3-5 ; Acts 11:18 ; Phil 1:29)

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 15, 2009, 10:26:03 PM
Hey Aspiring Son,

I agree. Salvation is by God's sovereign grace. God chooses man, not man chooses God. God doesn't choose everyone. He draws the elect and grants them repentance and faith to believe in Jesus.(Eph 1:3-5 ; Acts 11:18 ; Phil 1:29)

God doesn't choose everyone?

Chosen, do you believe God loves everyone?

cp

Cp,

No, God does not choose everyone. That has never been His plan of salvation. It has always been Grace through faith by sovereign election from Adam to Noah to Abraham to Moses to the nation of Israel to the remnant of Israel to the Gentiles.

Cp, God is love. We love because He first loved us. That agape love does not go out to all His creatures. Only his elect. Jesus prayed for His people (elect) in John Chapter 17. Read it. Jesus says he does not pray for the world, but for the ones God has given Him. In the OT do think he loved those unrighteous, wicked people(Gen 6:5) who He wiped out in the flood? Only Noah and His family survived because they were chosen by God unto righteousness.

Christianity is not some social club that everyone can join. You have to be born into the family of God to be His children.( Jn 3:3).

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 15, 2009, 10:10:32 PM
Cp,

you said:

I think we must perish to the state of unrighteousness in order to go to the state of righteousness. I think it means what you say. We must die (perish) to the ungodly ways.

Answer: Perish haS nothing to do with dying to ungodly ways. You add that meaning to perish.

I did not add any meaning to the word perish. I said it means to cease to be. Did you overlook this? Does it mean this to you? I just put it in context when talking of perishing to unrighteousness. Or let me put it this way, the man of sin must perish. The old man must perish. Do you believe this?

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 15, 2009, 10:10:32 PM
you said

Chosen, did you do anything to be a sinner? Did you one day say "I think I'll choose to be a sinner today." ? No you are a sinner because you are in Adam. In Christ you are saved. Do you understand this? Your choices will follow the work of God in you for it is He who works in you to do and to will His good pleasure. Do you agree?

Answer: No, Adam represented the human race. when he fell, we fell.

So, Chosen, you did not do anything to become a sinner yet you believe it's all up to you whether you become saved or not? You are taking a mighty big load upon your shoulders which is up to you but Jesus did warn us about burdening others with burdens too heavy for them.

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 15, 2009, 10:10:32 PM

Read 2 Corinthians 5:21 again we imputed our sins to a man that knew no sin so we can have His righteousness. Exchange there Cp. Jesus bores our sin and gives us His righteousness only when you believe.

Chosen, you really think the Good Book is teaching us that we kind of barter for salvation by giving something to Jesus in exchange for it.

For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.2cor5.21

You really think this is what this verse is teaching us. I think of 1cor2.14 again!

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 15, 2009, 10:10:32 PM

Yes those who are spiritually dead in Adam (Eph 2:1) can come alive by grace to those who BELIEVE. yOU HAVE TO BELIEVE TO RECEIVE THIS RIGHTEOUSNESS. CP. Read Romans 4:3-6

And you [did he make alive,] when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins,  eph2.1

Chosen where in this verse does it say 'spiritually' dead?

I do agree with you about the need for us to believe but where you and I part roads, I hope only for a short time now though, is how we come to be able to believe!

cp

Cp,

Read my above response above on how we are saved.

Eph 2:1 When your dead in your sins, that means spiritually otherwise how are you walking around dead in your sins?

Chosen, I have asked you many questions and you totally ignore them so for me to continue would be a waste of time of which Jesus warns me so I am done for now and if you want any further input you can pm me and we'll see.

Go with God and keep asking, seeking and knocking to the One who knows all.

cp

Cp,

No, God does not choose everyone. That has never been His plan of salvation. It has always been Grace through faith by sovereign election from Adam to Noah to Abraham to Moses to the nation of Israel to the remnant of Israel to the Gentiles.

Cp, God is love. We love because He first loved us. That agape love does not go out to all His creatures. Only his elect. Jesus prayed for His people (elect) in John Chapter 17. Read it. Jesus says he does not pray for the world, but for the ones God has given Him. In the OT do think he loved those unrighteous, wicked people(Gen 6:5) who He wiped out in the flood? Only Noah and His family survived because they were chosen by God unto righteousness.

Christianity is not some social club that everyone can join. You have to be born into the family of God to be His children.( Jn 3:3).

Chosen, I just had to be sure before I wrote this and it is a bit off subject but...........

you are one wacked out dude......... but don't worry, the harder the nut the more glory to God when He cracks it.

Go in peace or not but.....................

cp

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 15, 2009, 08:37:17 PM
Seth,

Man experiencing evil has nothing to do with perishing according to 2 Thess 2:10-12. :thumbsup:

You asked why God would send deception that they would believe a lie. Evil has everything to do with that.

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 15, 2009, 05:14:55 AM
Verse 10 "And in all deception of the unrighteousness among the ones perishing, because they did not receive the love of the truth for them to be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send to them a supernatural working of deception, for them to believe the lie, 12 so that they shall be judged, all the ones not having believed the truth, but the ones having delighted in unrighteousness."

What do you believe these scriptures are teaching? According to 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 do these unrighteous people believe the love of the truth (Jesus) for them to go to heaven?

Gods context is Love.  He IS love,  it is not about God having that "trait",  there is a difference.

All words in the bible have to be seen in love first, then seen in the action that love takes to "reconcile all".   So when you know this about God then you can see what the scriptures are saying.


In verse 11 we see the word in greek

QuoteG1223  dia  dee-ah'

a primary preposition denoting the channel of an act;
through (in very wide applications, local, causal, or occasional):--after,
always, among, at, to avoid, because of (that), briefly, by, for (cause) ... fore,
from, in, by occasion of, of, by reason of, for sake, that, thereby, therefore, X
though, through(-out), to, wherefore, with (-in). In composition it retains the
same general importance.

Then we look at how the word is used so that we can see the nature of the following word in verse 12.

QuoteG2919  krino  kree'-no

properly, to distinguish, i.e. decide (mentally or judicially);

by implication, to try, condemn, punish:--avenge, conclude, condemn, damn,
decree, determine, esteem, judge, go to (sue at the) law, ordain, call in
question, sentence to, think.

Given Gods character with all of that then we have  supporting verses to tie Gods character with his  declared actions.

Ro 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.

Ro 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

Ro 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.



So the answer to your question is YES.

The mind when confronted with fire will defend the house with only a garden variety hose. But it is impossible for man to make progress beyond the boundaries of the system to which they are attached; good and evil, without the Spirit of truth.

"Fear is the darkroom, where many develop their negatives."

Right thinking is essential if we are to unleash the abundance of life.
Therefore, let us remember to walk in the Spirit of the Day, it's ALL GOOD!

peacemaker

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 15, 2009, 05:14:55 AM
Verse 10 "And in all deception of the unrighteousness among the ones perishing, because they did not receive the love of the truth for them to be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send to them a supernatural working of deception, for them to believe the lie, 12 so that they shall be judged, all the ones not having believed the truth, but the ones having delighted in unrighteousness."

What do you believe these scriptures are teaching? According to 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 do these unrighteous people believe the love of the truth (Jesus) for them to go to heaven?

a] I believe sinners/ungodly/wicked are unrighteous and don't goto heaven.
b] Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ....
c] I believe only righteous people goto heaven.

Maybe a veil needs to be removed to see a 'hidden step' that clears up the "contradiction"... :winkgrin:

chosenofgod37 or lee100, doesn;t matter lol how about this funny question:

Jesus said his last enemies he will destroy is death

so how do you explain "perish" if Jesus defeat death? can't have both way.... :icon_king:

I believe that salvation is really a WAY OF KNOWING GD (Life...see commentary in John 17:3), and not to be confused with day of perfection or day of perfect.
The righteous suffer, the unrighteous are punished.  It is not always for me to determine who is who.
As being one of the faith or a believer in Gd's Love and forgiveness (Gospel) Gd will,  through my  suffering produce in me , a perfection ahead of time (See commentary in Hebrews 1 or 2 I think)...just like Jesus was perfected in suffering, so shall I be (as Jesus the example in the  perfector of my faith).

If by my intentional transgression my conscience causes me to ponder my punishment, I cannot say it is suffering of the righteous, now can I?

Better to check the log in my eye first to determine my own suffering or punishment before I go about seeing my guilt likeness in others.  If it is of faith it is not of sin.
Salvation teaches us that.

Even though alot of people do think of salvation as getting to heaven...which is okay, some have to wait, until they physically die, to  know Gd the way of the marriage covenant (Holy Spirit).
The marriage union or covenant between man and Gd (called a Holy Spirit) but may not really functioning the way it is supposed to.

May you all be blessed.
It has been a couple years since I posted anything on this board.

Theres so many interpretations and thoughts about who will be saved and who won't.  The bible does make it pretty clear to me that some won't be saved.

What I do is realize that no-one has all the answers, but rest safe in the knowledge that one day God will judge the world in fairness as he said.

It's easy to pull out passages here and there that can make God seem really unfair (yes, i said unfair)-
The apostle Peter firmly stated: "For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?" (1 Peter 4:17). Then Peter asks, "If the righteous one is scarcely saved, where will the ungodly and sinner appear?" (verse 18)

All things are possible with God, and Christs saving power stronger than Adams trespass.  (Surely we don't believe that Adam is stronger than Christ do we?)

And it's easy to pull out passages that make God sound very fair, and indeed 'worthy' of worship, because anyone with a good heart will love his enemy and have no wish to see him either burn in hell forever, or be dead forever, but rather they would see God, 'heal and restore them' and love them and forgive them as we forgave them.

1) Eph 1:11..........God works ALL things after counsel of His will
2) Jn 8:29.............Jesus ALWAYS does which pleases His Father
3) I Tim 2:4.........God will have ALL to be saved
4) I Jn 4:14..........Jesus sent to be the Savior of the world
5) Jn 4:34............Jesus to do the will of God who sent Him
6) Jn 12:47..........Jesus came to save ALL
7) I Tim 2:6.........Jesus gave Himself a ransom for ALL
8) Jn 5:36 ...........He will finish the works He was sent to do
9) Jn 4:42............Jesus is the Savior of the world
10) Jn 12:32.........Jesus will draw ALL to Himself
11) Heb 7:25........Jesus is able to save to the uttermost
12) Col 1:15.........Jesus the first born of ALL creation
13) Col 1:16.........By Him ALL things were created
14) Rm 5:15-21....In Adam ALL condemned, in Christ ALL live
15) I Cor 15:22....In Adam ALL die, in Christ ALL live
16) Eph 1:10........ALL come into Him at the fulness of times
17) I Cor 15:26....Death, the last enemy, will be destroyed
18) Phl 2:9-11.....EVERY TONGUE shall confess Jesus is Lord
19) I Cor 12:3......Cannot confess except by THE HOLY SPIRIT
20) Rm 11:26.......ALL Israel will be saved
21) Act 3:20-21....Restitution (Reconstitution) of ALL
22) Lk 2:10...........Jesus will be the joy to ALL people
23) Eph 2:7...........His grace to be shown in the ages to come
24) Heb 8:11-12...ALL will know God
25) Lk 3:6.............ALL flesh shall see the salvation of God
26) Titus 2:11.......Grace has appeared to ALL
27) Rm 8:19-21....Creation freed from corruption
28) Col 1:20..........ALL reconciled unto God
29) I Cor 4:5..........ALL will have praise of God
30) Jms 5:11..........End of the Lord is full of mercy
31) Rev 15:4..........ALL Nations worship when judgments seen
32) II Cor 5:17.......ALL becomes a new creation in Christ
33) Rm 11:32.........ALL subjected to unbelief, mercy on ALL
34) Rm 11:36.........ALL out of God, thru Him, and into Him
35) Eph 4:10...........Jesus will fill ALL things
36) Rev 5:13...........ALL creation seen praising God
37) I Cor 15:28.......God will be ALL in ALL
38) Rev 21:4-5........No more tears, ALL things made new
39) Jn 5:25..............ALL dead who hear will live
40) Jn 5:28..............ALL in the grave will hear & come forth
41) Jn 6:39.............And this is the Father's...I should lose nothing
42) Jn 6:12.............Gather up the fragments that...that nothing be lost
43) I Cor 3:15.........ALL saved, yet so as by fire
44) Mk 9:49...........Everyone shall be salted with fire
45) II Cor 5:15........Jesus died for ALL
46) I Jn 2:2..............Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world
47) Rm 11:15..........Reconciliation of the world
48) Heb 2:2.............He is the heir of ALL things
49) Jn 3:35..............ALL has been given into His hand
50) Jn 17:2..............Jesus will give eternal life to ALL that His Father gives Him
51) Jn 6:44-45.........ALL to be taught of God and will come
52) I Tim 4:9-11......Jesus is the Savior of ALL
53) Acts 13:47.........Salvation unto the ends of the earth
54) Gal 3: ................All nations shall be blessed.


So I guess what I'm saying is that on a matter such as this, it's going to boil down to hope.  And of course, what we believe about God.

I found this online, which is more or less what I believe about the subject of 'who will be saved'.


Read it if you have time or an inclination.

I've put in red bold the part I felt was most relevant.




How Will God Judge the World?
Judgment remains one of the most misunderstood subjects in all the Bible. Many think of it almost wholly in terms of condemnation or damnation. But is that really how God will judge His human creation? On what basis will He render a final verdict?
by John Ross Schroeder

How Will God Judge the World?If you or I were to seriously harm another person (hypothetically speaking), in the Western world we would be brought before a judge and jury to receive an appropriate punishment. The prosecuting attorney would emphasize the tragic condition of the innocent victim, and the defense lawyer would point out any extenuating circumstances in a plea for the perpetrator. Motive would be argued by these two lawyers.

Any witnesses would be called to testify either for or against the accused. The judge would disallow inappropriate testimony. Finally the jury would retire to consider the case in private. In due time, if they had been convinced by the prosecutor's arguments, they would return to court with a guilty verdict. The sentence would be handed out by the judge on a later date.

This oversimplified fictional scenario pretty much sums up the way in which many conceive of the subject of judgment—usually with undue emphasis on the final verdict and sentencing. The popular concept runs very negatively.

But what does God's inspired Word teach? The rendering of "eternal judgment" in the Bible is a far more serious matter than, say, ruling on the petty misdemeanors that normally characterize a Judge Judy courtroom. Our final destiny is seriously at stake! Just what does Scripture say regarding God's judgment of the world?
God is the Judge

In pleading for any righteous individuals in wicked Sodom, the patriarch Abraham asked God, "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" (Genesis 18:25). There were not even 10 righteous persons in Sodom, but God spared "righteous Lot" (2 Peter 2:7) and his two daughters from the catastrophe that followed.

The New Testament also tells us that "God [is] the judge of all" (Hebrews 12:23). Jesus Christ revealed that God the Father is "Lord of heaven and earth" (Matthew 11:25). As always, He remains the ultimate authority, presiding over the entire universe and everything in it, visible and invisible. Our eternal destiny is in His capable hands.

Yet the Father delegates the awesome responsibility of judging human beings to His beloved Son: "For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son" (John 5:22, emphasis added throughout). This is because Jesus actually lived as a human being Himself (verse 27), showing God's eminent fairness. Of course, Jesus is of the same mind as the Father, declaring, "I and My Father are one" (John 10:30).

The context of this passage shows that the resurrection from the dead intersects with Christ's coming judgment: "Most assuredly I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live" (verse 25). Everyone who has died will hear Christ's voice (verse 28).

Humanity will be resurrected from the dead. We have Christ's absolute guarantee preserved in His inspired Word to mankind. The resurrection will occur! And numerous passages link this with a time of coming judgment.
The plan of salvation

God planned His whole creation. He thought things out well in advance. Human beings figure prominently in the awesome future God is working toward. He made men and women in His own image (Genesis 1:26-27) with the ultimate goal of bringing them into His divine family. People have sinned, but God's purpose is to redeem and save them.

The Bible reveals God's master plan of salvation. It begins and ends with Jesus Christ. Notice what the apostle Paul stated: "He [the Father] raised Him [Jesus] up from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come" (Ephesians 1:20-21).

Earlier in this chapter Paul told the Christians at Ephesus, "He [the Father] made known to us his secret purpose, in accordance with the plan which he determined beforehand in Christ, to be put into effect when the time was ripe; namely that the universe, everything in heaven and earth, might be brought into a unity with Christ" (verses 9-10, Revised English Bible).

Judgment is a major part of that divine plan. "Eternal judgment" follows the "resurrection from the dead" in the listing of six major biblical doctrines that lay a foundation for going on to perfection in Hebrews 6:1-2. It begins with those whom the Bible calls the firstfruits of God (Romans 8:23; James 1:18; Hebrews 12:22-23).

These relative few are privileged to be made aware of God's plan of salvation well in advance of the vast majority of mankind. They will be in the first and better resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:23; Hebrews 11:35). God the Father and Christ the Son are laboring to bring the firstfruits to eternal glory (Hebrews 2:10). As we will see, judgment plays a major role in that work of salvation.
Judgment begins with the Church of God

The apostle Peter firmly stated: "For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?" (1 Peter 4:17). Then Peter asks, "If the righteous one is scarcely saved, where will the ungodly and sinner appear?" (verse 18).

Does this passage then mean that truly converted Christians will just barely make the first resurrection into God's family? Not at all!

The word "scarcely" is translated from the Greek adverb molis, meaning "with difficulty" (Strong's no. 3433). In fact, the few other uses of this word in the New Testament indicate the meaning to more specifically be "with such difficulty as to seem that success would be unlikely." Indeed, Christ said that the way to salvation is a narrow and difficult path (Matthew 7:14). Yet even what is impossible for men is possible with God (Matthew 19:26).

One of the overriding principles of sound biblical study is that we search out all the relevant scriptures bearing on a particular subject. In his second letter Peter points out a number of Christian attributes that we should all be developing: faith, virtue, knowledge, self-control, perseverance, godliness, brotherly kindness and love.

He then concludes: "Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 1:10-11). This majestic event occurs at the time of the first resurrection when Christ returns to planet earth (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 1 Corinthians 15:51-54).

In the meantime, the Church is going through a period of judgment—which means a time of evaluation and of disciplinary consequences for disobedience. Such helpful chastening is part of the difficulties a Christian must endure (Hebrews 12:7). In stating what he did in 1 Peter 4:18, Peter was referring to Proverbs 11:31: "If the righteous will be recompensed on the earth, how much more the ungodly and the sinner?"
Awaiting a future judgment

Indeed, what about the ungodly and the sinner in today's world—including those who cavalierly cast aside the Ten Commandments with little regard for the hurt and destruction they cause themselves and others? Clearly such rebellion carries grave consequences. But are such people—most of humanity, in fact—lost forever with no hope of salvation?

The apostle Paul was inspired to write in the Bible of converted Christians: "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us" (Romans 5:8). Would not our just and merciful God also demonstrate His love to other sinners in desperate need of real repentance and His merciful forgiveness? God gave His Son because He loved the whole world (John 3:16).

Peter points out, "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9). This is the loving nature of our God who is filled with mercy. He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked.

Paul writes of "God our Saviour, whose will it is that all should find salvation and come to know the truth" (1 Timothy 2:3-4, REB). A false, satanic gospel has denied many people access to the truth of God.

Jesus Christ said: "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth [crucified], will draw all peoples to Myself" (John 12:32). Christ is going to straighten out this world in His coming reign on earth as King of Kings and Lord of Lords with the assistance of the resurrected and transformed saints (Revelation 20:4).

That is why God is calling them as the "firstfruits" of His divine family during this age of man: "Of his own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures" (James 1:18).

Many more will be called to salvation during Christ's millennial reign and just on beyond. A future second resurrection to judgment will occur just after the Millennium (Revelation 20:5, 11-12). For the most part, this future judgment will not be to condemnation or damnation. Other scriptural passages strongly indicate that the majority of all those who have ever lived will be given the opportunity for salvation—and most will gladly accept it.

Read Ezekiel 37:1-14, which describes this time. The resurrected Israelites described in this passage think their hope is lost—that they are cut off from God (verse 11). But their Creator will give them hope. They will have their opportunity for salvation, and most will receive the Holy Spirit and be saved (verse 14). Centuries after Ezekiel wrote this prophecy, the apostle Paul firmly stated, "All Israel will be saved" (Romans 11:26).

This is true judgment—godly evaluation of human existence with righteous discernment and great mercy (see Isaiah 11:3-4; James 2:13). Unlike a human judge of this world, our Judge loves us! He gave His life for us!

As we might expect, there will be a stubborn few who simply will not repent and turn from sin even after God has given them every opportunity. Even then, however, the permanent penalty will not be everlasting punishing in the fires of hell. The Bible teaches that the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23)—the diametric opposite of life.

After burning up in the lake of fire (Revelation 20:14), they will simply cease to exist. This is the second death (Revelation 20:14). You can learn much more by reading our free booklet Heaven and Hell: What Does the Bible Really Teach?
God's magnificent purpose for humanity

The awesome result of our Creator's activities on this earth lies "in bringing many sons to glory" (Hebrews 2:10)—the Greek term here includes daughters as well. As the apostle Paul explains in 1 Corinthians 15:22-23, God accomplishes His plan in stages: "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order."

God is enlarging His family in His own way and according to His own timetable. Many assume that today is the only day of salvation and that the ultimate judgment for humanity at large is determined solely by what happens in this life.

The Bible, however, reveals something far different. The first resurrection represents the firstfruits of God's salvation. Judgment for them occurs in this life. But a much larger group, representing the greater part of all who have ever lived, will be offered salvation some 1,000 years later. They will go through their judgment period then. For only then, in that great later harvest of mankind, will they receive their opportunity for everlasting life in the Kingdom of God. GN

The website was http://www.gnmagazine.org/issues/gn84/god-judge-world.htm

Quote from: jesushandsarekindhands on September 23, 2009, 02:52:05 PM
Theres so many interpretations and thoughts about who will be saved and who won't.  The bible does make it pretty clear to me that some won't be saved.

Let me put my thoughts this way. I too would find it odd all would be saved. (not taking ET stuff here)
But many verses seem to contradict my thought. For example my 3 fav verses I use as a signature.

1 Timothy 2:3-4  .... God our Saviour;  Who will have all men to be saved....
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ....


Take Romans for example. Ungodly... that aren't exact the followers of Jesus. But they are declared, not asked, not begged, declared righteous. What is the destination of the righteous.....?

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 23, 2009, 03:16:35 PM

Quote from: jesushandsarekindhands on September 23, 2009, 02:52:05 PM
Theres so many interpretations and thoughts about who will be saved and who won't.  The bible does make it pretty clear to me that some won't be saved.

Let me put my thoughts this way. I too would find it odd all would be saved. (not taking ET stuff here)
But many verses seem to contradict my thought. For example my 3 fav verses I use as a signature.

1 Timothy 2:3-4  .... God our Saviour;  Who will have all men to be saved....
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ....


Take Romans for example. Ungodly... that aren't exact the followers of Jesus. But they are declared, not asked, not begged, declared righteous. What is the destination of the righteous.....?

But the Romans passage says that these people 'believed'.  Many people, most in fact, don't believe.  Again i guess it depends on how a person interperates the passage.

Depends indeed.
For me the ungodly are all that are not 'the saints'. The real true believers.
So that includes pagans for example.


Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one  who declares the ungodly righteous ....

A group of people that believes/trusts/worships/... the One
"who"=the One. What does "The One" do? Declare the ungodly righteous

Put otherwise.
Some people do not work but believe in The One.
AND
The One declares sinners godly.

Basicly it are two verses/statements.

^WWRomans 4:5 The believers trust in the One that also will make the ungodly godly.
:2c:

Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ....

I read this passage (at this moment in time) like this...

Paul is talking about faith and works, and he's saying that the man who 'does not work' but 'has' faith in God...His faith is credited to him as righteous rather than his works.  Paul then goes on to give lots of examples of faith.  I see the ungodly in this passage as anyone at all who 'believes or trusts' in God to save them through their faith in him.
But again, it brings up the subject of who believes.  If the ungodly doesn't believe in him who justifies the ungodly, will they be justified at all?

Blessings.
I too believe not all people are saved, but that does not mean all people are not made perfect or perfected...although I believe it is possible that a person to so debase their soul that they can be recycled.

Regardless of whether a person is a Christian, Jew, Hindu etc., not all have LIFE or Know Gd.

Also I believe that Jesus believed and taught an "ongoing resurrection" of the dead,   a very old form of tikkun olam; repairing the world through the resurrection of righteous ones.

Quote from: jesushandsarekindhands on September 23, 2009, 04:36:10 PM
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ....

I read this passage (at this moment in time) like this...

Paul is talking about faith and works, and he's saying that the man who 'does not work' but 'has' faith in God...His faith is credited to him as righteous rather than his works.  Paul then goes on to give lots of examples of faith.  I see the ungodly in this passage as anyone at all who 'believes or trusts' in God to save them through their faith in him.
But again, it brings up the subject of who believes.  If the ungodly doesn't believe in him who justifies the ungodly, will they be justified at all?

Actually it doesn't say "rather than his works." Faith is righteousness and them who have it, that faith is credited to them for the righteousness that it is. Contextually, the works that do not justify man that Paul is referring to are works of the Law of Moses. But the righteousness that is of the law is love. So rather than working the Law of Moses, we are to have faith and upon faith we access grace which teaches us to live Godly lives in this present age. We recieve the empowerment to do good works by that Spirit and those works are what is acceptable to God. As Paul said:

Romans 2:10-15
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God.

For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

The teaching of Paul is clearly stating the same thing as James: anyone with GENUINE faith will BY NATURE do the righteousness that is in the law, even though they do not have the law. Same thing happened with Abraham. Abraham didn't have the law of Moses, but by his nature he was righteous by the good works of faith he did for God, because his faith was genuine. Genuine faith and good works are not separate.

In our case, the promise to Abraham, being the Holy Spirit is that which changes our nature to WANT to do good. That is the empowerment that justifies man. That is how we are made righteous by faith.

Quote from: Seth on September 23, 2009, 07:17:46 PM

Quote from: jesushandsarekindhands on September 23, 2009, 04:36:10 PM
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ....

I read this passage (at this moment in time) like this...

Paul is talking about faith and works, and he's saying that the man who 'does not work' but 'has' faith in God...His faith is credited to him as righteous rather than his works.  Paul then goes on to give lots of examples of faith.  I see the ungodly in this passage as anyone at all who 'believes or trusts' in God to save them through their faith in him.
But again, it brings up the subject of who believes.  If the ungodly doesn't believe in him who justifies the ungodly, will they be justified at all?

Actually it doesn't say "rather than his works." Faith is righteousness and them who have it, that faith is credited to them for the righteousness that it is. Contextually, the works that do not justify man that Paul is referring to are works of the Law of Moses. But the righteousness that is of the law is love. So rather than working the Law of Moses, we are to have faith and upon faith we access grace which teaches us to live Godly lives in this present age. We recieve the empowerment to do good works by that Spirit and those works are what is acceptable to God. As Paul said:

Romans 2:10-15
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God.

For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

The teaching of Paul is clearly stating the same thing as James: anyone with GENUINE faith will BY NATURE do the righteousness that is in the law, even though they do not have the law. Same thing happened with Abraham. Abraham didn't have the law of Moses, but by his nature he was righteous by the good works of faith he did for God, because his faith was genuine. Genuine faith and good works are not separate.

In our case, the promise to Abraham, being the Holy Spirit is that which changes our nature to WANT to do good. That is the empowerment that justifies man. That is how we are made righteous by faith.

Seth it took me a while to get that to sink in, but ok I understand now.

Another question though...If the Gentiles know the law because its written in their hearts, how is it that I haven't met a single person yet who would condone rape or any of the other things horrible things condoned by the law done in the Old testament but rather their conscience tells them...rape is wrong...Slavery is wrong etc etc?

We are talking about the righteousness of the law, which is love, not the letter of the law. Romans 8 shows us that by Christ we are able to fulfill the righteousness that is of the law. This is why living by the Spirit is distinguishable from living by the letter. Does that make sense? This is why Jesus said: "You have heard it said eye for an eye, but I say resist not evil, yet repay evil with good" (paraphrase). Jesus is setting aside the letter there, and talking about love which fulfills all the law.

Yes.
I believe Jesus and his followers originally taught presumption of guilt wihin the law (which is why it was necessary for and oral interpretation).
If it is sin to you it is not of faith.

What must one do to be assured that Gd loves and forgives them?
Is it contained in magical properties in blood (animal or man), or in special water, or in a certain interpretation or understanding of Torah?

Depending on where a person is determines how or what assurance system they need.

Since Gds Grace / love and forgiveness is all emcompassing, does that mean we intentionally transgress so it is revealed more?
Certainly not, because in so doing I will loose my assurance of his love and forgiveness, because  my conscience will continue to bear witness to my sin.

Quote from: Seth on September 23, 2009, 07:31:03 PM
We are talking about the righteousness of the law, which is love, not the letter of the law. Romans 8 shows us that by Christ we are able to fulfill the righteousness that is of the law. This is why living by the Spirit is distinguishable from living by the letter. Does that make sense? This is why Jesus said: "You have heard it said eye for an eye, but I say resist not evil, yet repay evil with good" (paraphrase). Jesus is setting aside the letter there, and talking about love which fulfills all the law.

Yeh that does make sense to me, surprisingly enough.

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 15, 2009, 05:14:55 AM
Verse 10 "And in all deception of the unrighteousness among the ones perishing, because they did not receive the love of the truth for them to be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send to them a supernatural working of deception, for them to believe the lie, 12 so that they shall be judged, all the ones not having believed the truth, but the ones having delighted in unrighteousness."

What do you believe these scriptures are teaching? According to 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 do these unrighteous people believe the love of the truth (Jesus) for them to go to heaven?

what is THE LIE???

the lie is that God tortures souls for all eternity,((( unrighteous judgment ))) and who believes this lie?

well thats what i beleive now, unless someone can change my mind.

peace
chuckt

Quote from: jesushandsarekindhands on September 23, 2009, 07:36:31 PM

Quote from: Seth on September 23, 2009, 07:31:03 PM
We are talking about the righteousness of the law, which is love, not the letter of the law. Romans 8 shows us that by Christ we are able to fulfill the righteousness that is of the law. This is why living by the Spirit is distinguishable from living by the letter. Does that make sense? This is why Jesus said: "You have heard it said eye for an eye, but I say resist not evil, yet repay evil with good" (paraphrase). Jesus is setting aside the letter there, and talking about love which fulfills all the law.

Yeh that does make sense to me, surprisingly enough.

So essentially, regarding the issues you brought up concerning rape and murder statutes contained in Moses, it is more important that we consult the living Christ within us, rather than the letter of Moses which accuses us. If the Spirit guides us, it will divide the righteousness of the law from the letter that once veiled Christ, so that we will do all things according to love and concern for all people (ie like loving our neighbor, honoring our parents, the weightier matters). According to Paul we would do those things BY NATURE, not by letter, having been changed by the Spirit, having not the law to be under. It was hard for me to understand all this but it does get clearer as you go along with the Lord.

I think this thread might be of some help toward further explanation: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=6805.0

Quote from: Seth on September 23, 2009, 07:42:16 PM

Quote from: jesushandsarekindhands on September 23, 2009, 07:36:31 PM

Quote from: Seth on September 23, 2009, 07:31:03 PM
We are talking about the righteousness of the law, which is love, not the letter of the law. Romans 8 shows us that by Christ we are able to fulfill the righteousness that is of the law. This is why living by the Spirit is distinguishable from living by the letter. Does that make sense? This is why Jesus said: "You have heard it said eye for an eye, but I say resist not evil, yet repay evil with good" (paraphrase). Jesus is setting aside the letter there, and talking about love which fulfills all the law.

Yeh that does make sense to me, surprisingly enough.

So essentially, regarding the issues you brought up concerning rape and murder statutes contained in Moses, it is more important that we consult the living Christ within us, rather than the letter of Moses which accuses us. If the Spirit guides us, it will divide the righteousness of the law from the letter that once veiled Christ, so that we will do all things according to love and concern for all people (ie like loving our neighbor, honoring our parents, the weightier matters). According to Paul we would do those things BY NATURE, not by letter, having been changed by the Spirit, having not the law to be under. It was hard for me to understand all this but it does get clearer as you go along with the Lord.

Actually the more ive looked into all this stuff, the more confused Ive got to be honest.

The confusion for me, I realized later, was partly in not understanding the difference between "good works" and "works of the law." Understanding that difference was an eye-opener, and many things began to fall in place. Also a correct understanding of grace helped me.

I was always taught: faith good, works bad. But what kind of works? They never distinguished that, and so the NT became confusing seeming to preach faith then stress works, then seem to deny works. But again, what kind of works? That's why I started that thread.

Quote from: Seth on September 23, 2009, 08:18:54 PM
The confusion for me, I realized later, was partly in not understanding the difference between "good works" and "works of the law." Understanding that difference was an eye-opener, and many things began to fall in place. Also a correct understanding of grace helped me.

I was always taught: faith good, works bad. But what kind of works? They never distinguished that, and so the NT became confusing seeming to preach faith then stress works, then seem to deny works. But again, what kind of works? That's why I started that thread.

It's not easy sometimes Seth, thanks for all your input on this.

Anytime.  :HeartThrob:

Interesting.

There is sometimes confusion over a few things concerning righteousness and the law.
Righteousness of the law is through loving obedience to Gd (perfection).
In other words, if you asked many Christians or Jews why they are obedient, you might be surprised by the answers.  Obedience is in recognition of the creator (his love and forgiveness), not to get or earn his affections / love and forgiveness. 

Jesus was dealing mostly with Oral interpretation of the Torah which was non-binding to a degree at this time  (John 7:22-23  speaks of a halacha about suspending of sabbath for circumcison law,  as one example).
You can see much argumentation on this in NT commentary.  Differing sects had differing interpretations of law of Moses (written)...everything from sacrifices, to cleansing of hands.  Some sects even believed Torah interpretation was perverted (See Jer. 8).
I  think Jesus would conclude that perfection was the righteousness of the law, he would say it was ultimate perfection, and with that is always a course of conduct virtue of the mind (see Prov. 5:17 as one example).
The prophets would agree that the knowing Gd (defined as LIFE) is man's true perfection.
Jesus taught that we should all strive to imitate Gd's actions, which are loving-kindness, judgment and righteousness ( do love in righteousness).

Example; Micah 6:6-7;

"Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, with myriad streams of oil? Shall I give my first-born for my crime, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
You have been told, O man, what is good, and what the LORD requires of you: Only to do the right and to love goodness, and to walk humbly with your God "


Our own morals or virtues are our individual part of perfection to a perfect love, whereas doing love in righteousness is a societal thing.

Now I know I sometimes am a very deep thinker, and not the best at explaining these things, but follow closely what the commentator says in 1 John 4:18;

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment of the sinful nature , and the one who fears is not perfected in love."

If a person fears, because of UNINTENTIONAL transgression of the law, they will always believe and have a Gd which punishes them for transgressions that they may have very little control over.  They will not experience perfection / KNOW Gd until they physically die.  They DON'T KNOW THE TRUE GD OF LOVE AND FORGIVENESS (Gospel).

So the basic message Jesus tried to get out was;
Perfect love (Gd Loves you and Forgives your transgression) gets rid of the fear.

Quote from: wilmont on September 23, 2009, 09:52:26 PM
Interesting.

There is sometimes confusion over a few things concerning righteousness and the law.
Righteousness of the law is through loving obedience to Gd (perfection).
In other words, if you asked many Christians or Jews why they are obedient, you might be surprised by the answers.  Obedience is in recognition of the creator (his love and forgiveness), not to get or earn his affections / love and forgiveness. 

Jesus was dealing mostly with Oral interpretation of the Torah which was non-binding to a degree at this time  (John 7:22-23  speaks of a halacha about suspending of sabbath for circumcison law,  as one example).
You can see much argumentation on this in NT commentary.  Differing sects had differing interpretations of law of Moses (written)...everything from sacrifices, to cleansing of hands.  Some sects even believed Torah interpretation was perverted (See Jer. 8).
I  think Jesus would conclude that perfection was the righteousness of the law, he would say it was ultimate perfection, and with that is always a course of conduct virtue of the mind (see Prov. 5:17 as one example).
The prophets would agree that the knowing Gd (defined as LIFE) is man's true perfection.
Jesus taught that we should all strive to imitate Gd's actions, which are loving-kindness, judgment and righteousness ( do love in righteousness).

Example; Micah 6:6-7;



Our own morals or virtues are our individual part of perfection to a perfect love, whereas doing love in righteousness is a societal thing.

Now I know I sometimes am a very deep thinker, and not the best at explaining these things, but follow closely what the commentator says in 1 John 4:18;

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment of the sinful nature , and the one who fears is not perfected in love."

If a person fears, because of UNINTENTIONAL transgression of the law, they will always believe and have a Gd which punishes them for transgressions that they may have very little control over.  They will not experience perfection / KNOW Gd until they physically die.  They DON'T KNOW THE TRUE GD OF LOVE AND FORGIVENESS (Gospel).

So the basic message Jesus tried to get out was;
Perfect love (Gd Loves you and Forgives your transgression) gets rid of the fear.

Quote from: wilmont on September 23, 2009, 09:52:26 PM
Interesting.

There is sometimes confusion over a few things concerning righteousness and the law.
Righteousness of the law is through loving obedience to Gd (perfection).
In other words, if you asked many Christians or Jews why they are obedient, you might be surprised by the answers.  Obedience is in recognition of the creator (his love and forgiveness), not to get or earn his affections / love and forgiveness. 

Jesus was dealing mostly with Oral interpretation of the Torah which was non-binding to a degree at this time  (John 7:22-23  speaks of a halacha about suspending of sabbath for circumcison law,  as one example).
You can see much argumentation on this in NT commentary.  Differing sects had differing interpretations of law of Moses (written)...everything from sacrifices, to cleansing of hands.  Some sects even believed Torah interpretation was perverted (See Jer. 8).
I  think Jesus would conclude that perfection was the righteousness of the law, he would say it was ultimate perfection, and with that is always a course of conduct virtue of the mind (see Prov. 5:17 as one example).
The prophets would agree that the knowing Gd (defined as LIFE) is man's true perfection.
Jesus taught that we should all strive to imitate Gd's actions, which are loving-kindness, judgment and righteousness ( do love in righteousness).

Example; Micah 6:6-7;

"Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, with myriad streams of oil? Shall I give my first-born for my crime, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
You have been told, O man, what is good, and what the LORD requires of you: Only to do the right and to love goodness, and to walk humbly with your God "


Our own morals or virtues are our individual part of perfection to a perfect love, whereas doing love in righteousness is a societal thing.

Now I know I sometimes am a very deep thinker, and not the best at explaining these things, but follow closely what the commentator says in 1 John 4:18;

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment of the sinful nature , and the one who fears is not perfected in love."

If a person fears, because of UNINTENTIONAL transgression of the law, they will always believe and have a Gd which punishes them for transgressions that they may have very little control over.  They will not experience perfection / KNOW Gd until they physically die.  They DON'T KNOW THE TRUE GD OF LOVE AND FORGIVENESS (Gospel).

So the basic message Jesus tried to get out was;
Perfect love (Gd Loves you and Forgives your transgression) gets rid of the fear.

I have a question about what God said here
"Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, with myriad streams of oil? Shall I give my first-born for my crime, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
You have been told, O man, what is good, and what the LORD requires of you: Only to do the right and to love goodness, and to walk humbly with your God.

My question is this...Why did God ask for blood sacrafice in the first place if it didnt even please him to start with?

The way I read that sentence about being perfected in love is this: If you fear, it shows that you have not been perfected in love. The one who walks in love does not need to fear punishment of the sinful nature, because they have been perfected. However the one who walks in disobedience...God assures that indeed he will chastise those he says are his sons.

Hebrews 12:11
Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

The "nevertheless afterward" part is when we need not undergo "grievous chastening" because the grace of God which bringeth salvation by chastening us to live Godly lives has then done its work.

QuoteMy question is this...Why did God ask for blood sacrafice in the first place if it didnt even please him to start with?

The Bible says that the law brings the knowledge of sin. By offering blood sacrifices, man is reminded of his sin and then becomes aware of it. Then the law doer desires a savior. Then Christ comes with his Spirit (remember that we are saved by his life per Romans 5) to put the body of death TO death and finally deliver us. That is what it means that the Law is a schoolteacher to bring us to Christ.

Maybe that wasn't a very good post?

How about this.

Believing or knowing Gds love and forgiveness (saved),  does not cancel the laws demand for righteousness, only the laws curse (for lack of better term).

Jesus saving knowledge teaching;

If you don't want condemnation then don't transgress so much.

Quote from: Seth on September 23, 2009, 10:06:54 PM

QuoteMy question is this...Why did God ask for blood sacrafice in the first place if it didnt even please him to start with?

The Bible says that the law brings the knowledge of sin. By offering blood sacrifices, man is reminded of his sin and then becomes aware of it. Then the law doer desires a savior. Then Christ comes with his Spirit (remember that we are saved by his life per Romans 5) to put the body of death TO death and finally deliver us. That is what it means that the Law is a schoolteacher to bring us to Christ.

Ok Seth thanks again.

Wilmont, as I see things, forgiveness of sin is the beginning, but salvation FROM sin is the end. That is where the chastening comes from. Forgiveness of sin is in the doing away of the Law which was man's accuser. However, as Paul said that those who sin without the law, will also perish without it. They will still perish and perishing is bad. So getting the accuser out of the way is only the beginning.

That is why I don't equate forgiveness of sin with salvation itself. In Romans 5 Paul says "having been reconciled how much more so shall we be saved...by his life"

It is by Christ's resurrected life (Spirit) that we are saved from sin daily, and that through chastisement, which AFTERward yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness.

Quote from: Seth on September 23, 2009, 10:06:54 PM

QuoteMy question is this...Why did God ask for blood sacrafice in the first place if it didnt even please him to start with?

The Bible says that the law brings the knowledge of sin. By offering blood sacrifices, man is reminded of his sin and then becomes aware of it. Then the law doer desires a savior. Then Christ comes with his Spirit (remember that we are saved by his life per Romans 5) to put the body of death TO death and finally deliver us. That is what it means that the Law is a schoolteacher to bring us to Christ.

I do not believe that blood sacrifices were given by Gd to remind man of his sin; our guilt / conscience reminds us of our sin, (except Anointed priest function which showed Israel that no matter how much they tried they still sinned in ignorance).
Sacrifices were given to wean Israel away from the sacrificial system of the nations which Gd was setting them apart from.
They could not do it...so he gave them a system by they could do this until the time of perfect / physical death (when they would understand it was not necessary).
Sacrifices are/were really a man trying to be in this state of perfect by killing the sinful nature (flesh) and fellowshipping with Gd closer.
They were actually the sacrifice through a substitute.
Followers believed they were really supposed to be in substitute Jesus, to be as if dead, burried and resurrected in a perfect state.

Purpose of law;
Reveal sin
Removal of guilt
Prevention of sin

Quote from: Seth on September 23, 2009, 10:16:46 PM
Wilmont, as I see things, forgiveness of sin is the beginning, but salvation FROM sin is the end. That is where the chastening comes from. Forgiveness of sin is in the doing away of the Law which was man's accuser. However, as Paul said that those who sin without the law, will also perish without it. They will still perish and perishing is bad. So getting the accuser out of the way is only the beginning.

That is why I don't equate forgiveness of sin with salvation itself. In Romans 5 Paul says "having been reconciled how much more so shall we be saved...by his life"

It is by Christ's resurrected life (Spirit) that we are saved from sin daily, and that through chastisement, which AFTERward yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness.

I believe similar to that.
In a metaphorical sense (no man can really die for another mans sin..and we all die).
Salvation is a WAY of LIFE (knowing Gd).
Its day to day.
Less sin in your life = more fellowship with Gd.
When you enter into a Holy Covenant / Spirit,  with Gd, you don't want to put the marriage away.

The sacrifices were for the knowledge of sin. Hebrews 9 shows us that the cleansing was ceremonial, not actual.

Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin

It is by the Spirit, the life of Christ that man is saved from Sin. That is what the Law was not able to do. The Law was able to bring the knowledge of sin, but not deliverance from it, which is why the Law is a schoolteacher to lead us to Christ, and it is why the Law is not for a righteous man but for the ungodly.

However, it is by the Spirit that salvation from sin is given.

Quote from: wilmont on September 23, 2009, 10:21:37 PM

Quote from: Seth on September 23, 2009, 10:16:46 PM
Wilmont, as I see things, forgiveness of sin is the beginning, but salvation FROM sin is the end. That is where the chastening comes from. Forgiveness of sin is in the doing away of the Law which was man's accuser. However, as Paul said that those who sin without the law, will also perish without it. They will still perish and perishing is bad. So getting the accuser out of the way is only the beginning.

That is why I don't equate forgiveness of sin with salvation itself. In Romans 5 Paul says "having been reconciled how much more so shall we be saved...by his life"

It is by Christ's resurrected life (Spirit) that we are saved from sin daily, and that through chastisement, which AFTERward yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness.

I believe similar to that.
In a metaphorical sense (no man can really die for another mans sin..and we all die).
Salvation is a WAY of LIFE (knowing Gd).
Its day to day.
Less sin in your life = more fellowship with Gd.
When you enter into a Holy Covenant / Spirit,  with Gd, you don't want to put the marriage away.

Amen, salvation is a way of life.  :thumbsup:

Quote from: Seth on September 23, 2009, 10:24:46 PM
The sacrifices were for the knowledge of sin. Hebrews 9 shows us that the cleansing was ceremonial, not actual.

Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin

It is by the Spirit, the life of Christ that man is saved from Sin. That is what the Law was not able to do. The Law was able to bring the knowledge of sin, but not deliverance from it, which is why the Law is a schoolteacher to lead us to Christ, and it is why the Law is not for a righteous man but for the ungodly.

However, it is by the Spirit that salvation from sin is given.

Levitical sacrifices were not for knowledge of sin.
Leviticus 5 (as one example) that those that knew they already transgressed brought forth a sacrifice.
They were for Atonement / Assurance (guilt removal).
Not all Jewish sects believed in blood sacrifice, some (Eseenes, Mandeanns as examples) made dough efigies, or in the case of Mandeanns (John The B) consideed blood sacrifice a sin, many were vegetarians.

Jer. 7:22;

In speaking to your fathers on the day I brought them out of the land of Egypt, I gave them no command concerning holocaust or sacrifice

Isa. 1:11-12;

What care I for the number of your sacrifices? says the LORD. I have had enough of whole-burnt rams and fat of fatlings; In the blood of calves, lambs and goats I find no pleasure. 
When you come in to visit me, who asks these things of you (literally from your hands)?

It was Gd's wish that his people could leave the sacrifices of the nations behind, but they could not simply believe in the same Gospel Jesus preached.....just like people don't believe it today.  Jesus died not because Gd needs a sacrifice, but because man rejects his free love and forgiveness.

Can you see why I am hated by many Christians?
Because they want to believe that Jesus died because Gd required it...this is their excuse.
And this excuse they believe upon
Jesus died because they DID NOT BELIEVE. Who am I to preach to them the Gospel, when they are doing the real work of Gd.

I love you folks (Not saying you are like that)....and at least you have moved beyond much of the Romans.
And I do not mean any harm.

Thanks everyone, very interesting

Well, I do agree with you, that Jesus did not die because God needed something. Actually, he died because WE needed something: The resurrected Life within us delivering us from sin. As to the Law:

I disagree about the Levitical sacrifices not being for the knowledge of sin.

Paul said: by the law is the knowledge of sin. That is what it is for.

Hebrews 10:1-4
The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

The sacrifices were there to be a reminder of sins. But Christ was sacrificed for us to deliver us from sin. With the law it is impossible to save anyone from sin. But the Spirit is able to do what the law could not do.

Maybe Hebrews writer was not a very good student, or didn't know what he was talking about? :bigGrin:
(thats a joke)

Hebrews is mostly speaking about the high priest function of sacrifice (Yearly ritual), not the regular day to day ministerial priestly function.  This is the priest iof the Nation (another way to look at it).
High Priest did not deal with sins which became known on a daily basis.  These were left for the regular ministerial priest.

Here is an example of a regular daily priest function, not Yom Kippur (which by the way is non-blood).

Lev. 5:13;

"But if he is not able to bring two turtledoves or two young pigeons, then he who sinned shall bring for his offering one-tenth of an ephah of fine flour as a sin offering. He shall put no oil on it, nor shall he put frankincense on it, for it is a sin offering. Then he shall bring it to the priest, and the priest shall take his handful of it as a memorial portion, and burn it on the altar according to the offerings made by fire to the Lord. It is a sin offering. The priest shall make atonement for him, for his sin that he has committed in any of these matters; and it shall be forgiven him."

Notice, the person who has already had knowledge of their transgression.

This is the reason why when children were old enough to be intructed in Torah, they would go to congregate (Neh. 8 or 9).


The Quram and cross sects generally did not BELIEVE IN SACRIFICE....because Gd did not authorize this in Torah.
They held to a form of self sacrifice (were way ahead of their time).  Temple sacrifice was never supposed to last or be the corrupt system it had become.

If man was in Perfect state (In LIFE Spirit), there would be no need TO SACRIFICE OURSELVES (which is really what it was about) or use GUILT TRANSFER ( sacrificing ourselves through a substitute). 


No man can totally be perfect in this present state (even Jesus could not).  We have to physically die to be like that (only the dead are totally freed from sin and law).

Anointed High Priest (which is what commentary in Hebrews speaks about mostly).
His job was once a year.

Jesus could not be a literal replacement for a high priest, or even the regular  (doesn't meet the requirements).
The writer in Hebrews commentary speaks of him being a "heavenly high priest".  In heaven (which the things on earth are patterned) there is no sacrifice (no need too), no physical blood line etc.

So why would people continue to sacrifice and kill to be close to heaven, when the things in heaven are not blood and killing?
The standard Christian argument, is because Gd requires it, as a penalty of some sort.
Its a bibilically weak foundation.

Their were other Jewish sects who understood, it was about self sacrifice, and an attempt to be as if physcially dead in state of perfection with Gd, absent the nature of our sinful flesh (which can almost be mastered but not totally in this present age).

Another way to understand what Moses, Isa., Jeremiah, Jesus etc.  were trying to convey is that sacrifices were are meant for those who don't believe Gd has forgiven them.

Ex. 34:7;

keeping mercy unto the thousandth generation, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin; and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and unto the fourth generation.'

We pass our guilt onto our children through word and deed.
This is why alot of Jesus ministry was built upon;  "if you don't want the guilt or condemnation, then don't INTENTIONALLY transgress".

There is no sacrifice (in manor animal) which can cleanse the conscience of a person which intentionally sins......however there are means to do things concerning intentional sins,  repent, restitution and good works will help).

Blessings to you this morning.

Quote from: wilmont on September 24, 2009, 12:25:33 PM
Maybe Hebrews writer was not a very good student, or didn't know what he was talking about? :bigGrin:
(thats a joke)

Hebrews is mostly speaking about the high priest function of sacrifice (Yearly ritual), not the regular day to day ministerial priestly function.  This is the priest iof the Nation (another way to look at it).
High Priest did not deal with sins which became known on a daily basis.  These were left for the regular ministerial priest.

Here is an example of a regular daily priest function, not Yom Kippur (which by the way is non-blood).

Lev. 5:13;

"But if he is not able to bring two turtledoves or two young pigeons, then he who sinned shall bring for his offering one-tenth of an ephah of fine flour as a sin offering. He shall put no oil on it, nor shall he put frankincense on it, for it is a sin offering. Then he shall bring it to the priest, and the priest shall take his handful of it as a memorial portion, and burn it on the altar according to the offerings made by fire to the Lord. It is a sin offering. The priest shall make atonement for him, for his sin that he has committed in any of these matters; and it shall be forgiven him."

Notice, the person who has already had knowledge of their transgression.

This is the reason why when children were old enough to be intructed in Torah, they would go to congregate (Neh. 8 or 9).

Brother, you are making exceptions where none are provided. Am I to believe that the sacrifices you describe as being somehow different from the yearly DO have the power to deliver someone from sin? Only the Spirit has that power.

By the law is the knowledge of sin. ALL the sacrifices had a shadow of Christ, but were not in themselves able to do what he does.

QuoteIf man was in Perfect state (In LIFE Spirit), there would be no need TO SACRIFICE OURSELVES (which is really what it was about) or use GUILT TRANSFER ( sacrificing ourselves through a substitute). 


No man can totally be perfect in this present state (even Jesus could not).  We have to physically die to be like that (only the dead are totally freed from sin and law).

I agree, that no man can be perfect in this present state and that we must physically die and be clothed with Christ for completion, however, deliverance from sin was never by the law. By the law is the knowledge of sin. By CHRIST is deliverance from it.

None of the sacrifices were able to bring deliverance from the body of this death by which slavery to sin originates. Was the law able to accomplish that deliverance? No, because the letter is external, but the Spirit is internal and brings true salvation from sin where the law could only expose it and therefore bring man under condemnation. By contrast, the Spirit sets us free, where the law held us in bondage.

QuoteThere is no sacrifice (in manor animal) which can cleanse the conscience of a person which intentionally sins......however there are means to do things concerning intentional sins,  repent, restitution and good works will help).

The sacrifices are there to show man the sin in his flesh by bringing continual remembrance of sin. If the sacrifices were able to put to death the old man, the body of death which lusts against the spirit and brings man into slavery to its lusts, then man would not need to bring sacrifices because he wouldn't be sinning. That is what Paul meant when he said

"For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. If it could, would they not have stopped being offered?"

Do ANY of the sacrifices NOT fit that definition? Is there ANY animal sacrifice that has the power to deliver man from the flesh with all its lusts and passions, putting to death the old man? Of course not. It's all external. Remember when Jesus said: You must eat my flesh and drink my blood? He was talking about the Holy Spirit. Christ is the only sacrificial lamb able to do any internal work in man.

So again I say, by the law is the knowledge of sin. By Christ is deliverance from sin.

Quote from: Seth on September 24, 2009, 06:53:18 PM
...we must physically die and be clothed with Christ for completion...

I disagree! just my opinion.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on September 24, 2009, 07:09:13 PM

Quote from: Seth on September 24, 2009, 06:53:18 PM
...we must physically die and be clothed with Christ for completion...

I disagree! just my opinion.

I know. That's your Constitutional right. ;)

Quote from: Beloved Servant on September 24, 2009, 07:09:13 PM

Quote from: Seth on September 24, 2009, 06:53:18 PM
...we must physically die and be clothed with Christ for completion...

I disagree! just my opinion.

:cloud9: So do I. Blessings....

lol...and the world keeps spinning.  :laughing7:

Seth,

You said this;

Brother, you are making exceptions where none are provided. Am I to believe that the sacrifices you describe as being somehow different from the yearly DO have the power to deliver someone from sin? Only the Spirit has that power.

I am not making exceptions?

Holy Word says this;

Lev. 5:13;

But if he is not able to bring two turtledoves or two young pigeons, then he who sinned shall bring for his offering one-tenth of an ephah of fine flour as a sin offering. He shall put no oil on it, nor shall he put frankincense on it, for it is a sin offering. Then he shall bring it to the priest, and the priest shall take his handful of it as a memorial portion, and burn it on the altar according to the offerings made by fire to the Lord. It is a sin offering. The priest shall make atonement for him, for his sin that he has committed in any of these matters; and it shall be forgiven him.

"then he who sinned shall bring"

This person already knows that they sinned.
The offering does not make their sin known to them....they already KNOW.

That leaves us with;

It is a sin offering. The priest shall make atonement for him, for his sin that he has committed in any of these matters; and it shall be forgiven him.

1)It is a sin offering for those who already knew they sinned.
2)The priest will make them one with Gd (atone) for them, or on their behalf.
2)And because of this (the above) they will know believe or understand, that Gd has forgiven their sin.

Now if a person wants to "literally" take Lev. 5 at its word, then it almost seems that unless they do that which is prescribed for their sin, then Gd won't forgive them.
However Jeremiah said this;


"In speaking to your fathers on the day I brought them out of the land of Egypt, I gave them no command concerning holocaust or sacrifice."

And Moses spoke before giving of Levitical sacrifices this;

"keeping mercy unto the thousandth generation, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin; and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and unto the fourth generation.'"

And Jesus said this in commentary in Matt. 9:13;


"Go and learn the meaning of the words, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' I did not come to call the righteous but sinners."

Now what kind of a "meanie" Gd, would break His people free from bondage, march them through the desert for many years without the means of forgiving them? 

You said this too;

ALL the sacrifices had a shadow of Christ, but were not in themselves able to do what he does.

This is why it is hard for me to believe Jesus was a real man as Christians believe, because of some Christian teachings or doctrines (not speaking of you specifically).

Jesus could not ever be a literal Levitical sacrifice.  The Temple and those things were pattered after those in heaven and given to Moses.

1)Unless their is man or animal sacrifice in heaven (for those who believe in this), then the pattern on earth is not to be taken literaly as that of heaven.

2)Unless Gd thinks it is okay to make Jesus an animal on earth and have people draw their blood, finish killing him and then cook him etc., then there is some other understanding.


Sacrifices were/are really about us.  Not to reveal sins that we already knew about (why we would bring the sacrifice to begin with).  We are the one being sacrificed.  We who believe SUFFER in this world, until such a time when we can leave our flesh mortal bodies behind, and live in a perfected state, where circumcison doesn't happen, doesn't need too.
Jesus was of a sect of Jews who believed ALL MEN could be close to Gd now, because Gd is a part of us, he lived in the true temple (us).
Man was really Gds hands and his feet.


Every man has an Adam and a Christ (not that I am a Gnostic).

Seth,

Please be patient with me.

You said this.

By Christ is deliverance from sin

Is Jesus a real historical person to you?

Then where in Tanach does Gd say it is exceptable for a man to be a Levitical sacrifice?

You see what I mean?

There must be more to those kind of sayings.

Maybe Jesus delivered some people from a previous theology concering purpose of Levitical sacrifices?

I know I am long winded.  Sorry.

Moses spoke before giving of Levitical sacrifices this;

"keeping mercy unto the thousandth generation, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin; and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and unto the fourth generation.'"


Now what kind of a "meanie" Gd, would break His people free from bondage, march them through the desert for many years without the means of forgiving them? 

Moses tells us Gd did forgive their sin. 
However it did not work out too well, since they liked some of the things they carried with them from captivity.
So they get a sacrificial system by which they can incorporate the worship of the ONE TRUE Gd, until such a time when they can be weaned away from it.
Jesus came to "SPLAIN IT".


What happened in Christianity is they took the same unweaned system, and just replaced Jesus with it.
So just like Orthodox Judasim does not generally see sacrifices as symbolic or abstract types or images (although many Jews and some followers do).....Christianity went the same route, in that they view the sacrifice of the Man Jesus as not symbolic or an abstract type (although I view the actual sacrifices are the symbol or abstract type of fleshless perfected spirit type bodies in heaven), but a literal sacrifice to get Gd to do something for them; forgive them by paying off their guilt, or to them function as this version of a real sacrifice per a non symbolic Orthodox Jewish view of the Sacrificial system.
This is why it can never line up properly with the Holy Word.


Its alot easier for lazy Church leaders just to tell a person;

Yeah Jesus is the same as an animal sacrifice.
Lets eat, and listen to some music.

Quote from: wilmont on September 24, 2009, 08:30:27 PM
Seth,

You said this;

Brother, you are making exceptions where none are provided. Am I to believe that the sacrifices you describe as being somehow different from the yearly DO have the power to deliver someone from sin? Only the Spirit has that power.

I am not making exceptions?

Holy Word says this;

Lev. 5:13;

But if he is not able to bring two turtledoves or two young pigeons, then he who sinned shall bring for his offering one-tenth of an ephah of fine flour as a sin offering. He shall put no oil on it, nor shall he put frankincense on it, for it is a sin offering. Then he shall bring it to the priest, and the priest shall take his handful of it as a memorial portion, and burn it on the altar according to the offerings made by fire to the Lord. It is a sin offering. The priest shall make atonement for him, for his sin that he has committed in any of these matters; and it shall be forgiven him.

"then he who sinned shall bring"

This person already knows that they sinned.
The offering does not make their sin known to them....they already KNOW.

They know that they have committed a sin, a trespass. But the knowledge of sin that the Law reveals goes much deeper than that. What man discovers through the law is not the trespass they committed, but WHY they commit those trespasses in the first place. The Law condemns sin, so the observers of the law try to do right, but the sin in their flesh causes them to do what they try not to do. This condition of slavery is what the law reveals. That is what Paul means when he says "by the works of the law shall no man be justified, for by the law is the knowledge of sin." By working according to the demands of the Law man does not ever become delivered from sin, he only discovers his need for a savior from it. That is how the law leads to Christ.

QuoteSacrifices were/are really about us.  Not to reveal sins that we already knew about (why we would bring the sacrifice to begin with).  We are the one being sacrificed.  We who believe SUFFER in this world, until such a time when we can leave our flesh mortal bodies behind, and live in a perfected state, where circumcison doesn't happen, doesn't need too.

This might be where we are talking past eachother.

I am not talking about the knowledge of trespasses committed. Those trespasses are only the symptom of the sin dwelling WITHIN man. Man may be aware of the tresspasses committed, yet not aware of the ROOT cause of those trespasses which is the flesh, and the lusts that the flesh generate. That is what the knowledge of sin is.

Quote from: wilmont on September 24, 2009, 08:38:41 PM
Seth,

Please be patient with me.

You said this.

By Christ is deliverance from sin

Is Jesus a real historical person to you?

Then where in Tanach does Gd say it is exceptable for a man to be a Levitical sacrifice?

You see what I mean?

There must be more to those kind of sayings.

Maybe Jesus delivered some people from a previous theology concering purpose of Levitical sacrifices?

Yes I believe Jesus Christ was a real historical person who died, and was resurrected to life, so that he could give the gift of Abraham (the Spirit) unto deliverance from sin. He is now alive and will not die again.

QuoteMoses tells us Gd did forgive their sin. 
However it did not work out too well, since they liked some of the things they carried with them from captivity.
So they get a sacrificial system by which they can incorporate the worship of the ONE TRUE Gd, until such a time when they can be weaned away from it.
Jesus came to "SPLAIN IT".

The bolded blue is the point of Christ's sacrifice: so that they wouldn't keep wanting to return to Egypt. That is why Christ puts our flesh to death from the inside out by his resurrected Life.

Seth,
There is a law which states that you must have a railing around your roof top balcony.
You decide you don't want one right now....you know it is a transgression of law because
last Saturday, the junior scribe spoke about roof top railings at the meeting place.

What is the deeper meaning in violating the law about a roof top railing?

Quote from: wilmont on September 24, 2009, 09:00:14 PM
Seth,
There is a law which states that you must have a railing around your roof top balcony.
You decide you don't want one right now....you know it is a transgression of law because
last Saturday, the junior scribe spoke about roof top railings at the meeting place.

What is the deeper meaning in violating the law about a roof top railing?

My continually violating that law (and offering a sacrifice every time I violate it) I am made aware of a condition of disobedience that my flesh causes me to have (seeing as how the flesh lusteth against the Spirit and the Spirit lusteth against the flesh.)

This continual process of disobedience leads me to desire a savior from the body of this death which Christ answers by giving his Spirit. Then, I don't even WANT to disobey.

 Here is the law;

Deut. 22:8;

"When you build a new house, you shall make a parapet for your roof, so that you do not bring bloodguilt on your house if anyone should fall from it"

This law reveals and prevents a transgression (no guilt removal sacrifices allowed for wilful transgression).

You shall make a paraphet for your roof (revealed).
So that you do not bring bloodguilt on your house (prevention).

How does concentrating on Jesus's sacrifice make this not important or go away?

Quote from: wilmont on September 24, 2009, 09:12:06 PM
Here is the law;

Deut. 22:8;

"When you build a new house, you shall make a parapet for your roof, so that you do not bring bloodguilt on your house if anyone should fall from it"

This law reveals and prevents a transgression (no guilt removal sacrifices allowed for wilful transgression).

How does concentrating on Jesus's sacrifice make this not important or go away?

Your hypothetical was predicated on disobedience to the rooftop law. So, I think I answered this question. If I disobey that law, according to your hypothetical, and continually make a sacrifice to cover my continued disobedience, then an internal condition of sinfulness is revealed. Christ's sacrifice paves the way for his resurrection. By his life we are saved so that we do not want to disobey, the Spirit putting away the very desire to disobey.

So Christians should be exempt from building codes?


There is no sacrifice for wilful intention sins allowed (Num. 15:27-31, Hebrews commentary Chapt. 10 I think).

Preceding the time of Jesus there was a Rabbinical school of thought which believed in a earnings or rewards system concering their belief in an afterlife.
Along with this was Halactic approaches (oral interpretations of law of Moses), on things like; what should we do if the eighth day is on the sabbath?  Can we violate Sabbath by circumcision?

Alot of what Jesus was dealing with was this type of understanding.

The nations had different things to deal with.

Quote from: wilmont on September 24, 2009, 09:26:01 PM
So Christians should be exempt from building codes?


There is no sacrifice for wilful intention sins allowed (Num. 15:27-31, Hebrews commentary Chapt. 10 I think).

Preceding the time of Jesus there was a Rabbinical school of thought which believed in a earnings or rewards system concering their belief in an afterlife.
Along with this was Halactic approaches (oral interpretations of law of Moses), on things like; what should we do if the eighth day is on the sabbath?  Can we violate Sabbath by circumcision?

Alot of what Jesus was dealing with was this type of understanding.

The nations had different things to deal with.

No, Christians should not be exempt from building codes. However, if they build a parapet for their roof to keep someone from falling it would not be because the letter of Moses tells them. It would be because the Love of Christ compels them. It wouldn't be to avoid bloodguilt for themselves, but to avoid hurting someone else.

That is how a Gentile can do the righteousness of the law (love) without having the law (per Romans 2) because they do love by nature not by letter. Nobody who is in Christ can violate the sabbath because the sabbath is a shadow of Christ, just like the rest of the 10 commandments. The true rock is Christ in you, the hope of glory, not some words etched in carnal rock. Circumcision of the heart is essential to observing the true sabbath which are the good things in Christ himself, his righteousness through us, not our own righteousness which is by the law.

Quote from: Seth on September 24, 2009, 09:29:55 PM

Quote from: wilmont on September 24, 2009, 09:26:01 PM
So Christians should be exempt from building codes?


There is no sacrifice for wilful intention sins allowed (Num. 15:27-31, Hebrews commentary Chapt. 10 I think).

Preceding the time of Jesus there was a Rabbinical school of thought which believed in a earnings or rewards system concering their belief in an afterlife.
Along with this was Halactic approaches (oral interpretations of law of Moses), on things like; what should we do if the eighth day is on the sabbath?  Can we violate Sabbath by circumcision?

Alot of what Jesus was dealing with was this type of understanding.

The nations had different things to deal with.

No, Christians should not be exempt from building codes. However, if they build a parapet for their roof to keep someone from falling it would not be because the letter of Moses tells them. It would be because the Love of Christ compels them. It wouldn't be to avoid bloodguilt for themselves, but to avoid hurting someone else.

That is how a Gentile can do the righteousness of the law (love) without having the law (per Romans 2) because they do love by nature not by letter. Nobody who is in Christ can violate the sabbath because the sabbath is a shadow of Christ, just like the rest of the 10 commandments. The true rock is Christ in you, the hope of glory, not some words etched in carnal rock. Circumcision of the heart is essential to observing the true sabbath which are the good things in Christ himself, his righteousness through us, not our own righteousness which is by the law.

Seth,

Who told you Jews do love by letter of law?
I think maybe you are misreading Paul.

Love doesn't replace a railing on a roof.:) :happygrin:
Thats a belief, its not in Holy Word, and Jesus never taught that.

1 Romanski 2

Those that do a building code, do so to the righteous letter of the law, and build a railing on a rooftop, because the code tells them to, otherwise they might never do it(I don't know this for sure);  whereas another groups leader, has taught them that they are not under the code, but do some of the things of the code naturally, and if someone falls off their roof, its okay because they do the righteous love of the code naturally.






Blessings

QuoteSeth,

Who told you Jews do love by letter of law?
I think maybe you are misreading Paul.
Love doesn't replace a railing on a roof.:) 
Thats a belief, its not in Holy Word, and Jesus never taught that.

Love can't be done by the letter of the law. The law is not of faith, which is why it is our own righteousness, and not the righteousness of God. Love is done by the Spirit which is the gift that God gives in order to put the flesh to death. When the flesh is put to death (which is a daily walk) love becomes a natural way of life, not something that needs to be instructed from the ministry of death on stone and parchment.

Jesus taught that love will result in actions according to love. My statement was that Gentiles will do the righteousness of the law, not because the letter says so, but they will do it by nature even without a set of letters on parchment and stone to follow.

Quote from: Seth on September 25, 2009, 12:20:44 AM

QuoteSeth,

Who told you Jews do love by letter of law?
I think maybe you are misreading Paul.
Love doesn't replace a railing on a roof.:) 
Thats a belief, its not in Holy Word, and Jesus never taught that.

Love can't be done by the letter of the law. The law is not of faith, which is why it is our own righteousness, and not the righteousness of God. Love is done by the Spirit which is the gift that God gives in order to put the flesh to death. When the flesh is put to death (which is a daily walk) love becomes a natural way of life, not something that needs to be instructed from the ministry of death on stone and parchment.

Jesus taught that love will result in actions according to love. My statement was that Gentiles will do the righteousness of the law, not because the letter says so, but they will do it by nature even without a set of letters on parchment and stone to follow.

Sure love can be done by the letter of the law, and the law is of faith.  Otherwise Jews never would have followed it.
Obedience to Torah is in recognition of the Creator.
Thats love.
Remember Jews follow a Gd they do not see, and single Gd.

QuoteThose that do a building code, do so to the righteous letter of the law, and build a railing on a rooftop, because the code tells them to, otherwise they might never do it(I don't know this for sure);  whereas another groups leader, has taught them that they are not under the code, but do some of the things of the code naturally, and if someone falls off their roof, its okay because they do the righteous love of the code naturally.

Nobody says that if someone falls of their roof it's ok. If they do the righteousness of the law by walking according to the spirit and not the letter, they would never think "it's ok" that someone got hurt. The point is not regarding building roofs, but in whether or not someone builds it thinking that because they followed the letter, that makes them righteous and justified before God without the Spirit.

The things of the code which are done by nature (which is determined by the impartation of the Godly nature according to the Spirit) are things like: honor your father and mother, love your neighbor etc. Those things a believer would do naturally, not because they follow the code. If they didn't know to do them, GRACE would teach them to live Godly lives in this present age.

The code does not teach, Grace teaches. If someone thinks that building a rail around their roof will make them justified before God because they followed the code, wrong. As many as are LED are sons, not as many has have their own righteousness.

Quote from: wilmont on September 25, 2009, 12:28:36 AM

Quote from: Seth on September 25, 2009, 12:20:44 AM

QuoteSeth,

Who told you Jews do love by letter of law?
I think maybe you are misreading Paul.
Love doesn't replace a railing on a roof.:) 
Thats a belief, its not in Holy Word, and Jesus never taught that.

Love can't be done by the letter of the law. The law is not of faith, which is why it is our own righteousness, and not the righteousness of God. Love is done by the Spirit which is the gift that God gives in order to put the flesh to death. When the flesh is put to death (which is a daily walk) love becomes a natural way of life, not something that needs to be instructed from the ministry of death on stone and parchment.

Jesus taught that love will result in actions according to love. My statement was that Gentiles will do the righteousness of the law, not because the letter says so, but they will do it by nature even without a set of letters on parchment and stone to follow.

Sure love can be done by the letter of the law, and the law is of faith.  Otherwise Jews never would have followed it.
Obedience to Torah is in recognition of the Creator.
Thats love.
Remember Jews follow a Gd they do not see, and single Gd.

Sorry, the law is not of faith.

Galatians 3:10-14
All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

Seth,
Even NT commentary does not say the law is not of faith...because it would be sin, and how could the law which defines sin (1 John writings), be sin?

I didn't say that the law was sin. The law not being of faith means that those who practice it are under a curse because they rely on self-righteousness rather than the promise of the Holy Spirit. That promise is by faith not by working of the Law. The Spirit is by which man is able to do the righteousness of the law by nature, not by letter. If you follow some of the law, you are cursed if you do not follow ALL the law. Christ sets us free from the curse of sin so that we may be free from the law of Moses in order to marry Christ.

Curses precribed in Tanach?
I don't fee cursed by Gd, because Gd doesn't curse me (we do it to ourselves)?
So how does doing things that curse us eventually, not happen to Gentiles too?
By the way Jews do the law naturally too.

Quote from: wilmont on September 25, 2009, 12:43:44 AM
Curses precribed in Tanach?
I don't fee cursed by Gd, because Gd doesn't curse me (we do it to ourselves)?
So how does doing things that curse us eventually, not happen to Gentiles too?
By the way Jews do the law naturally too.

Cursed is the one who does not do ALL the things prescribed in the Law, not just some things. Those who place themselves under some of it, must place themselves under all of it. But like I said, Christ puts our sin to death so that we are not under that curse and we may be married to him instead. There is no law against love. But the law is against sin. Therefore if man is conformed to love, he needs no law of Moses, because the law is for the unrighteous, for murderers etc. To be free from sin is to also therefore be led to Christ and free from the letter to follow the Spirit.

Quote from: Seth on September 25, 2009, 12:43:18 AM
I didn't say that the law was sin. The law not being of faith means that those who practice it are under a curse because they rely on self-righteousness rather than the promise of the Holy Spirit. That promise is by faith not by working of the Law. The Spirit is by which man is able to do the righteousness of the law by nature, not by letter. If you follow some of the law, you are cursed if you do not follow ALL the law. Christ sets us free from the curse of sin so that we may be free from the law of Moses in order to marry Christ.

Then we are all self righteous.  Or maybe ...none is as righteous as Gd.
Would it surprise you to know that many of those who follow law, do so in recogniton and love for the creator?
It sounds a bit self righteous to me to think that people that are obedient to torah because they love the creator, are not doing this out of faith or they don't have a spiritual connection because of it?

I would agree that there are people of all religous backgrounds that use works / assurance systems...but it is better than no works / assurance systems.

Quote from: wilmont on September 25, 2009, 12:51:43 AM

Quote from: Seth on September 25, 2009, 12:43:18 AM
I didn't say that the law was sin. The law not being of faith means that those who practice it are under a curse because they rely on self-righteousness rather than the promise of the Holy Spirit. That promise is by faith not by working of the Law. The Spirit is by which man is able to do the righteousness of the law by nature, not by letter. If you follow some of the law, you are cursed if you do not follow ALL the law. Christ sets us free from the curse of sin so that we may be free from the law of Moses in order to marry Christ.

Then we are all self righteous.  Or maybe ...none is as righteous as Gd.
Would it surprise you to know that many of those who follow law, do so in recogniton and love for the creator?
It sounds a bit self righteous to me to think that people that are obedient to torah because they love the creator, are not doing this out of faith or they don't have a spiritual connection because of it?

None is as righteous as God. That is why God imparts that righteousness as a gift through faith. That was how Stephen was able to cry out forgiveness to the ones who were killing him AS they were killing him. That was the righteousness of Christ through Stephen. Nobody is justified by following the letter. It is impossible. The law is not of faith.

QuoteI would agree that there are people of all religous backgrounds that use works / assurance systems...but it is better than no works / assurance systems.

Works/assurance is not what I am talking about. Being delivered from sin is what I am talking about. If you desire to follow the letter, that is up to you and you are free to do so. I know I don't need to for it will only bring death.

Quote from: Seth on September 25, 2009, 12:49:11 AM

Quote from: wilmont on September 25, 2009, 12:43:44 AM
Curses precribed in Tanach?
I don't fee cursed by Gd, because Gd doesn't curse me (we do it to ourselves)?
So how does doing things that curse us eventually, not happen to Gentiles too?
By the way Jews do the law naturally too.

Cursed is the one who does not do ALL the things prescribed in the Law, not just some things. Those who place themselves under some of it, must place themselves under all of it. But like I said, Christ puts our sin to death so that we are not under that curse and we may be married to him instead. There is no law against love. But the law is against sin. Therefore if man is conformed to love, he needs no law of Moses, because the law is for the unrighteous, for murderers etc. To be free from sin is to also therefore be led to Christ and free from the letter to follow the Spirit.

Well then it might be better not to believe in anything...that way you can't be cursed by it.
I don't believe Gd curses people.

Of course man needs law.

Otherwise you would not be resisting it or arguing against it right now.

Like I said.....love doesn't put a railing on a roof top.
It sort of like the "cause of the hand", what makes your hand sin.  Its starts in the mind.
Same with love.  Starts in your mind.

Flesh is a euphanism for sin.....when the flesh is dead, so is the sin.
The only people who are freed from the law are physically dead people (Paul said this in Romans 6:7).

Works/assurance is not what I am talking about. Being delivered from sin is what I am talking about. If you desire to follow the letter, that is up to you and you are free to do so. I know I don't need to for it will only bring death.


Maybe Paul is confused.

Those are the only ones "freed" from sin and the law...so if law leads to death and death frees us from sin...then everyone should be doing the law.

Paul was not talking about physical death in Romans 6.

He was talking about being planted together in the LIKENESS of Christ's death so that we may walk in newness of life


Romans 7
1Do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to men who know the law—that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives? 2For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. 3So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man.
4So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. 5For when we were controlled by the sinful nature,[a] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Quote from: wilmont on September 25, 2009, 01:04:44 AM


Works/assurance is not what I am talking about. Being delivered from sin is what I am talking about. If you desire to follow the letter, that is up to you and you are free to do so. I know I don't need to for it will only bring death.


Maybe Paul is confused.

Those are the only ones "freed" from sin and the law...so if law leads to death and death frees us from sin...then everyone should be doing the law.

The law binds us to death in sin. But the Spirit puts death to death, so that we may live in newness of life thereby being freed from both sin and the law that bound us.

No Paul was speaking about physical death, but was using remez to indicating to live as if you were physically dead and alive in a perfect state (like your christ..not like your adam).

Quote from: wilmont on September 25, 2009, 01:09:02 AM
No Paul was speaking about physical death, but was using remez to indicating to live as if you were physically dead and alive in a perfect state (like your christ..not like your adam).

He wasn't talking about physical death.

Quote from: Seth on September 25, 2009, 01:07:01 AM

Quote from: wilmont on September 25, 2009, 01:04:44 AM


Works/assurance is not what I am talking about. Being delivered from sin is what I am talking about. If you desire to follow the letter, that is up to you and you are free to do so. I know I don't need to for it will only bring death.


Maybe Paul is confused.

Those are the only ones "freed" from sin and the law...so if law leads to death and death frees us from sin...then everyone should be doing the law.

The law leads to death. But the Spirit puts death to death, so that we may live in newness of life thereby being freed from both sin and the law that bound us.

Thats because only physically dead people are freed from the law  and SPIRITUAL DEATH, (interpretations of law which lead a person lacking assurance).
Dead people are alive in a spiritual form (Eccl. 12:7).

Sorry about the delay my computer is real slow...dial up.

Seth,
Yes he was talking about physical death, because dead people don't have physical bodies with which to transgress the law (unless Jesus wasn't an actual dead man).
Thats why there is no circumcision in heaven (for those who believe).
Alot of things written in the Bible were holdovers from pagan captivity (Egyptians circumcised as one example).
J writer (one of the oldest writers of Tanach) never mentions Abram circumcising...this was by a later author.

I do have to go...the wife wants her laptop back.

As a final do you know that Paul called faith a law in NT commentary?

Quote from: wilmont on September 25, 2009, 01:19:38 AM
Seth,
Yes he was taslking about physical death, because dead people don't have physical bodies with which to transgress the law (unless Jesus wasn't an actual dead man).

He was not talking about physical death, but Spiritual baptism and being set free from the flesh.

Romans 7
1Do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to men who know the law—that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives? 2For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. 3So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man.
4So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. 5For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Quote from: Seth on September 25, 2009, 01:24:35 AM

Quote from: wilmont on September 25, 2009, 01:19:38 AM
Seth,
Yes he was taslking about physical death, because dead people don't have physical bodies with which to transgress the law (unless Jesus wasn't an actual dead man).

He was not talking about physical death, but Spiritual baptism and being set free from the flesh.

Romans 7
1Do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to men who know the law—that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives? 2For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. 3So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man.
4So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. 5For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Seth,
If a woman of the law is freed from marriage law by the physical death of her husband, then why would you not understand that a person who has physically died being freed from the whole law, because he no longer has a livign flesh body to sin with?

CONTEXT...read Romans 6:7 again.

Blessings

Quote from: wilmont on September 25, 2009, 01:31:29 AM

Seth,
If a woman of the law is freed from marriage law by the physical death of her husband, then why would you not understand that a person who has physically died being freed from the whole law, because he no longer has a livign flesh body to sin with?

Because it is a comparison. Paul is using physical death as an illustration of how we die to sin by grace, not by the letter. We have been released from the law so that we may serve in the new way of the Spirit not in the old way of the written letter.

Romans 6:14
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law,but under grace.

Titus 2
11For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. 12It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.

Thats right.....living as if physically dead and alive in a cosmic type form (perfected spirit), can't totally happen unless your physically dead (so law still aplies in some form)...however Paul believed you could have a taste of it ahead of time by BEING THE SACRIFICE OF JESUS....(DEAD BURRIED AND RESURRECTED).
Remember I spoke of the sacrifice being us?

You made me violate the law of the wife / computer...I am going to get a beating from my wife.

Quote from: wilmont on September 25, 2009, 01:39:21 AM
Thats right.....living as if physically dead and alive in a cosmic type form (perfected spirit), can't totally happen unless your physically dead (so law still aplies in some form)...however Paul believed you could have a taste of it ahead of time by BEING THE SACRIFICE OF JESUS....(DEAD BURRIED AND RESURRECTED).
Remember I spoke of the sacrifice being us?

You made me violate the law of the wife / computer...I am going to get a beating from my wife.

lol..the law of the wife, now that is something I am under too.

Being sacrifice of Jesus occurs in the Spirit, not the letter. That is why Paul says that we are not under law but under grace and GRACE is that which teaches us to live Godly lives. That is why we are told not to let anyone judge us as to holy days and sabbaths. They are having a shadow of good things to come. But shadows are not the very image of the thing. The good things to come in Christ (especially concerning the Sabbath) are REST from our own works and deliverance from sin into the good works that the Spirit leads us to do.

That is how we are completely released from the law to serve God in love through the Spirit through the teaching God gives by grace and not the old way of the letter.

Romans 10
1Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

The reason that Christ is the end of the law for righteousness, is that He is the one giving his righteousness through us as a gift. The works are his own by the Spirit which is why we become the sacrifice. Again, this occurs not through the law but by the daily teaching that God gives through his Spirit by grace.

That is what Paul means when he says "For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under the law but under grace."

Death is required to be released from the law, but it ain't physical death. It's sin not having dominion over you. And that occurs by the teaching according to grace, not law. The death that is required to be released from the law is to be planted together in the likeness of Christ's death by baptism (of the spirit).

Romans 6
12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

In Romans 9, 10, 11 Paul deals with calling and election and cutting off and grafting in and predestined purposes and temporary rejection- regarding Israel. He says things like, "the natural branches will were cut off for their unbelief". Then He explains this from the perspective that, "a partial hardening has come upon Israel until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled". He says God did this in order to bring us mercy and our reciving mercy will mean eternal life for them(Romans 11:15) He finishes by saying "So ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED". He adds, For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.In case anyone has a problem with this Paul finishes with the words

Rom 11:32-36    (33)  Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!  (34)  "Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?"  (35)  "Who has ever given to God, that God should repay him?"  (36)  For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen.

You see Chosen, you read, "cut off" and you hear "eternal torment, but the english word- damnation/condemnation translated to Greek is really "passing sentence" and in english- destruction is really "ruin, waste, perdition". Jesus speaks of the cutting down of trees and the washing away of houses built on sand and being delivered over to the judge by the bailiff, and many stripes and few stripes. Paul speaks works of wood hay and stubble being burned in the fire caused by "the day" for "the day shall reveal it" 1Cor 2:13-15. There are many stripes and few stripes and you will not get out till you pay the last penny. You write as if all those verses you listed somehow connect to the idea of eternal torment- that is because you are looking through a red glass, you only see red..... you need the veil taken away. Please read these next passages with an objective view.

Col 1:16-21  For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.  (17)  He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.  (18)  And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.  (19)  For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,  (20)  and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.  (21)  Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior, now he has reconciled...

God has shut up all in disobedience in order to have mercy on ALL. ALL come through MERCY. THE END GAME IS THAT EVERYTHING HE CREATED WILL BE RECONCILED THROUGH THE BLOOD OF THE CROSS. Nothing, having annihilated or in eternal torment can be reconciled.

Eph 1:9-10  He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him  (10)  with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.

This summing up of all things into one under the headship of Christ is the mystery of the gospel and it is AN ADMINISTRATION SUITABLE TO THE FULNESS OF TIMES. A plan executed over several ages.

1Co 15:22-25  For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.  (23)  But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,  (24)  then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.  (25)  For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
1Co 15:28  When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.


We who were the first to trust in Christ have received the reconciliation, and have been judged already through His death. Others will come to bow the knee and confess with the tongue in the process of the enemies being made subject.
Eph 1:11-12  In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:  (12)  That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Eph 2:7  That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Not a lot is given about the ages to come, but we will reign with Him AS PRIESTS (teaching men, reconciling men unto God, tearing down evry stronghold  and fortress that exalts itself against the true knowledge of God(this is fire). Until God abolishes all rule power and authority because God is over all in all and through all, in other words ALL CREATION UNIFIED IN HARMONY. That is the true knowledge, God wants all men reconciled, and "Works all things after the counsel of His will".(also Ephesians 1) That is why the whole creation groans eagerly awaiting the revelation of the sons of God who wilparticipate with God in the SETTING FREE of creation into the glorious liberty of the sons of God(Romans 8:19-22)

1Jn 2:2  and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Joh 1:29  The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

God does not love or forgive His enemies if He annihlates them or torments them forever. If He deals with men through "the hour of trial that is to come upon all those who dwell upon the face of the earth" (excusing only the overcomers from that trial, the first resurrection priesthood), then He reproves men in order to restore them. So to "sum up"- I have one question to ask you - How do you explain Ephesians 1:1-12 and Colossians 1:15-23 and
1 Corinthians 15:22-25. What does the reconciliation of "all things" mean? What does the "summing up of all things under one head, Christ" mean? How will God be over all in all and through all if much of His creation is destroyed from existence or in torment. How are all things "from Him, through Him and To him"?

Loving someone does not put a railing on their roof.
Following the spirit of this law, to some, might mean.....a house which is less than 4 cubits square is exempt from a railing (a Halacha)....or....I put a railing up, but it is 6" high.

If Christians were following the spirit / love of the law as you say, they would be exempt from building codes.  There would be no need for them.

Man has always been under Gd's grace or provision (love and forgiveness), since the beginning (alot of the NT is speaking about oral interpretive law).

Jesus does not meet the requirements of a levitical sacrifice, its not biblical.
Especially  John the B, since he most likely was a Mandeaan who considered blood sacrifice a sin.

There are things in the Bible which have been changed / so called scribal correction that may not always be correct.
For instance concerning punishment for violating Torah in Deut. 28:30 we read;

Thou shalt betroth a wife, and another man shall lie with her; thou shalt build a house, and thou shalt not dwell therein; thou shalt plant a vineyard, and shalt not use the fruit thereof.

the passage actually reads "another man shall enjoy her (yishalgenah)" .

Don't you think Gd is smart enough if he wanted the passage to read "lie or sleep with her", he would have written yishkavenah instead of yishalgenah? :icon_flower:

Blessings

Knowledge or to know, in is also a euphemism for sexuality (Hebrew),..evil is a seperation from Gd.
Edenic bodies were really LIGHT (perfect life spirits), or light bearing, and one with Gd, since no seperation.
In other words Adams body was originally made of light. But after he sinned (evil seperationfrom), Gd clothed his body in covering we now call skin.
All men have an Ohr / Aleph (perfect Light spirit), clothed in an animal soul or skin , Ohr / Ayin.
When you physically die, you return your perfect Ohr / Aleph, because you no longer have your flesh body.


This is much different theology than thinking that Gd killed an animal to cover a man because he sinned.

This is the difference between thinking that Jesus died FOR MY SIN (as if Gd requires his sacrifice) or Jesus died BECAUSE OF MY SIN, because all along man rejected the GRACE, love and forgiveness.

Quote from: wilmont on September 25, 2009, 01:09:44 PM
Loving someone does not put a railing on their roof.

It can result in that, if love is genuine, and the roof railing is necessary. Sometimes, however, a roof railing isn't necessary if roof access is impossible. But, to keep the neighborhood children from getting hurt, someone might add a fence around their front lawn to keep them from slipping on the concrete steps. There is no code for that in the law. But love is the righteousness of the law, so a Christian might do that regardless of a code, and even if it was a code, if the Christian didn't know it was, he would be following it by nature of love.

Romans 13:8
Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Romans 13:10
Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Galatians 5:14
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Quote from: wilmont on September 25, 2009, 01:22:43 PM
Jesus does not meet the requirements of a levitical sacrifice, its not biblical.
Especially  John the B, since he most likely was a Mandeaan who considered blood sacrifice a sin.

All the sacrifices were a shadow of Christ.

QuoteThis is the difference between thinking that Jesus died FOR MY SIN (as if Gd requires his sacrifice) or Jesus died BECAUSE OF MY SIN, because all along man rejected the GRACE, love and forgiveness.

Grace is not just forgiveness, but teaching and guiding. Jesus therefore died so that by his resurrected Spirit (the promise of Abraham) would be given those who believe, who could walk by the Spirit, and fulfill the righteousness that is of the law (love). Love is fulfilled in action not simply belief. Jesus died to get rid of sin, to take it away, not just to cover it and pretend like it doesn't exist.

Romans 13:8
Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Romans 13:10
Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Galatians 5:14
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Quote from: wilmont on September 25, 2009, 02:11:46 PM
Edenic bodies were really LIGHT (perfect life spirits), or light bearing, and one with Gd, since no seperation. In other words Adams body was originally made of light.

Where did you learn this...and can a light body see/touch/hear/feel?
And what about the bodies of animals?

And how do you explain this:

then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh; 22 and the rib which the LORD God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man. 23 Then the man said, "This at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man."

(I'm not picking on you!! I'm just curious about your views.)

I believe that there ARE beings of light. I don't know if they are angelic beings, or what.
But I do definitely believe there are these types of beings. For a very good reason, I believe.

But I never heard any teachings that man was ever a being of light.
Thanks in advance for explaining your views.

wilmont,

From what I am reading so far, is it fair to say you hold to the Holy Kabbalah? The reason I ask is because of what you said about Adam being originally a being of light, which would correspond to the idea that the soul of man exists in a journey of 4 bodies, Nephesh, Ruach, Neshamah, and Yechida. Is this what you have come to understand?

Thanks,

Ron

Quote from: sparrow on September 25, 2009, 07:56:43 PM

Quote from: wilmont on September 25, 2009, 02:11:46 PM
Edenic bodies were really LIGHT (perfect life spirits), or light bearing, and one with Gd, since no seperation. In other words Adams body was originally made of light.

Where did you learn this...and can a light body see/touch/hear/feel?
And what about the bodies of animals?

And how do you explain this:

then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh; 22 and the rib which the LORD God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man. 23 Then the man said, "This at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man."

(I'm not picking on you!! I'm just curious about your views.)

I believe that there ARE beings of light. I don't know if they are angelic beings, or what.
But I do definitely believe there are these types of beings. For a very good reason, I believe.

But I never heard any teachings that man was ever a being of light.
Thanks in advance for explaining your views.

possible here??

4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[a] it.

6There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.


Matt 5:14; "you are the light of the world"

Laren, just MHO, the Matthew verse isn't talking about our flesh, dust bodies, but newness of life. The light is within.

Quote from: Seth on September 25, 2009, 08:23:06 PM
Laren, just MHO, the Matthew verse isn't talking about our flesh, dust bodies, but newness of life. The light is within.

Yeah, that's the way I see it, as well.

Sparrow you seem like a pretty reasonable person. Tell me what you think.

Suppose someone has just enough money to pay for either a roof addition according to the building code in the Law of Moses, or to build a fence around his yard. Hypothetically, suppose roof access is impossible for a given reason so nobody can get up there, and the man builds a fence instead because he has concrete steps that the neighborhood kids could fall on. He decides to spend his last dime to build the fence out of concern for the children. Has he fulfilled the law?

willieH: Hi Eaglesway... :hithere:

As I said, I would see you on the board... well "here I is!"  :laughing7:

This will be a long answer (your post had its own longevity)... and will be in TWO PARTS -- and if you wish to learn, you will give it attention... Ignore it if you must, it matters not to me, either way.

I speak as the Lord gives unto me... and admit beforehand that it is quite possibly flawed in some areas (I am ALWAYS learning)... but it will definitely give you a perspective that is (1) UN-Orthodox (praise God) and (2) differing from your view for the most part, but is Scripturally based, and Spiritually discerned...

PART 1

Quote from: eaglesway on September 25, 2009, 01:43:38 AM
In Romans 9, 10, 11 Paul deals with calling and election and cutting off and grafting in and predestined purposes and temporary rejection- regarding Israel. He says things like, "the natural branches will were cut off for their unbelief". Then He explains this from the perspective that, "a partial hardening has come upon Israel until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled". He says God did this in order to bring us mercy and our reciving mercy will mean eternal life for them(Romans 11:15) He finishes by saying "So ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED". He adds, For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.In case anyone has a problem with this Paul finishes with the words

Rom 11:32-36    (33)  Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!  (34)  "Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?"  (35)  "Who has ever given to God, that God should repay him?"  (36)  For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen.

You see Chosen, you read, "cut off" and you hear "eternal torment, but the english word- damnation/condemnation translated to Greek is really "passing sentence" and in english- destruction is really "ruin, waste, perdition". Jesus speaks of the cutting down of trees and the washing away of houses built on sand and being delivered over to the judge by the bailiff, and many stripes and few stripes. Paul speaks works of wood hay and stubble being burned in the fire caused by "the day" for "the day shall reveal it" 1Cor 2:13-15. There are many stripes and few stripes and you will not get out till you pay the last penny. You write as if all those verses you listed somehow connect to the idea of eternal torment- that is because you are looking through a red glass, you only see red..... you need the veil taken away. Please read these next passages with an objective view.

Col 1:16-21  For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.  (17)  He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.  (18)  And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.  (19)  For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,  (20)  and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.  (21)  Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior, now he has reconciled...

God has shut up all in disobedience in order to have mercy on ALL. ALL come through MERCY. THE END GAME IS THAT EVERYTHING HE CREATED WILL BE RECONCILED THROUGH THE BLOOD OF THE CROSS. Nothing, having annihilated or in eternal torment can be reconciled.

I can mostly say AMEN to this writing...  :cloud9:  except that ALL THINGS already ARE [not "will be"] reconciled... 

In BLUE (Col 1:21) it states ""HAS reconciled"" and after quoting this verse (in RED above) you say "WILL BE reconciled" -- a contradiction... something that HAS been RECONCILED, does not need FUTURE RECONCILATION

Only the FINITE and earth-bound viewpoint sees that RECONCILIATION is a "yet to be" proposition...

RECONCILIATION already IS... and already WAS a FACT, from the foundation of the WORLD, which noted before the Creation took place, ...the LAMB SLAIN (past tense) from it's FOUNDATION -- Rev 13:8

"TIME's passing" did NOT accomplish the RECONCILIATION, ...it has ALWAYS BEEN an ETERNAL FACT, and DID NOT and DOES NOT require the passing of TIME, in order to ...BE..

Quote from: eaglesway on September 25, 2009, 01:43:38 AMEph 1:9-10  He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him  (10)  with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.

This summing up of all things into one under the headship of Christ is the mystery of the gospel and it is AN ADMINISTRATION SUITABLE TO THE FULNESS OF TIMES. A plan executed over several ages.

Yes,  and those "ages" (which are TIME periods leading up the FULLNESS of TIMES) that continue until the LAST DAY -- John 6:39, 44 -- 11:21 -- 12:48 -- in which ALL MEN will have "taken a knee" and CONFESSED with the tongue that JESUS CHRIST is Lord to the GLORY of YHVH...

For the FULLNESS of TIME is the consumation of ALL THINGS within it to be FULFILLED (history of man, and knowledge of G & E).  TIME is like a bucket, in which GOD pours the elements of it into this bucket, until it is ...FULL.  :laughing7:

The activities and inhabitants of TIME are the KNOWLEDGE of GOD being displayed concerning GOOD and EVIL... Our existence in THIS LIFE is HIS KNOWLEDGE, not only being PERFECTLY FULFILLED as DECLARED by HIM, but COMPLETE in its ETERNAL DISPLAY of the attributes and potentials of both GOOD and EVIL which EMERGE from HIS KNOWLEDGE of them...

We, as His CHILDREN are blessed to be participants of this MAJESTIC and DIVINE INTERNAL KNOWLEDGE, being EXHIBITED EXTERNALLY... and FOREVER known, thereby giving ALL entities within and without of YHVH GOD, a TRUE and COMPLETE observation of HIS internal MAJESTIC DIVINITY ...forever... ALL in ALL...

It is also important to remember, that GOD does not need TIME to pass in order to BE... nor does His WORD need TIME to pass in order to BE at its BEGINNING and its END... for the WORD is found to be BOTH...

Quote from: eaglesway on September 25, 2009, 01:43:38 AM1Co 15:22-25  For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.  (23)  But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,  (24)  then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.  (25)  For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
1Co 15:28  When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

I have already addressed this, these Scriptures are speaking of Linear TIME being fulfilled...

GOD does not "become" ALL in ALL... He ALWAYS IS, what He ALWAYS IS --- that being ALL in ALL...  To "become" ANYTHING, necessitates a CHANGE from a prior positioning. God is a COMPLETE and PERFECT entity, which does not EVER change, for that which is PERFECT needs NO ALTERATION...

Quote from: eaglesway on September 25, 2009, 01:43:38 AMWe who were the first to trust in Christ have received the reconciliation, and have been judged already through His death. Others will come to bow the knee and confess with the tongue in the process of the enemies being made subject.

Like to stop this just for a quick moment... the ENEMIES of GOD are NOT and never have been MEN... Men are the CHILDREN of GOD... LOVED by HIM as GRACE teaches... and is exemplified in the statement that HE so LOVES the WORLD that He created.

COMPLETE and UNDEFILED LOVE, always holds in its HIGHEST ESTEEM, its CHILDREN.

The ENEMIES of GOD are those things which bring separation between His Children and Himself... [sin-unrighteousness and Ungodliness OF men - against which the Wrath of GOD comes - Rom 1:18

And which is easily seen in the present SORROWS through which we ALL traverse in THIS LIFE... :nod:

Quote from: eaglesway on September 25, 2009, 01:43:38 AMEph 1:11-12  In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:  (12)  That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Eph 2:7  That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Okay... here please consider that we must absolutely LEAVE our linear observation of "ages" in which we as FINITES continually observe as TIME, ...to know what the "1000 years" are as "SYMBOLICALLY stated", in the SPIRIT ...in the REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST...

The Revelation (revealing) of JESUS CHRIST is from the END to the BEGINNING, for that is the manner in which YHVH Declared the History of mankind which "declaration" was according to His PERFECT Foreknowledge of it -- Isaiah 46:10-11 -- so in order to understand the book which is at the END of the writings of God, we must consider the BEGINNING for it is in the BEGINNING that many clues lie in the REVEALING of JESUS CHRIST...

The WORD notes that a "DAY" is AS a "1000 years" and a "1000 years" is AS a "DAY" -- 2 Pet 3:8

Most observe this Scripture that "TIME" is an irrelevant factor to God... which is ONE true observation of it... the "passing" of time IS irrelevant to ONE who IS in ALL portions of it as it is "passing" (before WE enter those portions)... However... there is more to this statement in 2 Pet 3:8 than the "passing" of TIME...

In the BEGINNING, God notes that ALL the GENERATIONS of MAN appear within the "DAY" [the "when"] that God created the Heavens and the Earth -- Gen 2:4

In order to understand this principle, one must recognize that CREATION is an ON-GOING activity within TIME... It appears that God creates ALL that would appear IN TIME, in the moments of its "passing", however it (time) is an ALREADY COMPLETED entity from His position.   As the END was (already) DECLARED from the BEGINNING... The INFINITE Creator already EXISTS in ALL MOMENTS of time, even though the FINITE entities within it, must "pass" through its MOMENTS one by one...

This "DAY" mentioned in Gen 2:4 -- is the Complete History of Mankind... which SPIRITUALLY takes place in the symbolic term "1000 years" marked in the REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST... for the WORD of GOD which is what JESUS CHRIST ...IS...  ALWAYS IS, ...and has been afforded to MAN since the BEGINNING, in which GOD spoke to ADAM and EVE... and IS already THERE waiting at the END of TIME  for us all (created entities - passing through time), to arrive (RETURN to) where we BEGAN... for the ALPHA ...IS... the OMEGA (beginning IS the end)... and vice versa -- Rev 1:8

This will be the end of PART 1... thanks for reading...

PART 2 to follow...

Amazing message Willie.
Thank you Jesus.

 :cloud9: That was awesome, Willie......... :happyclap: :2thumbs:  PTL that God forms the hearing ear in His people. As a small witness, I just want to say that He told me that the Alpha (Christ and those that were one with Him from before the foundation/time) and the Omega (Christ and those that are becoming one with Him NOW) are the same. He told me this is the meaning of Him saying I AM (those in the beginning with Him) THAT (or that I will be) I AM. Blessings.....

willieH: Hi Eaglesway... :hithere:

PART 2:

Quote from: eaglesway on September 25, 2009, 01:43:38 AMNot a lot is given about the ages to come, but we will reign with Him AS PRIESTS (teaching men, reconciling men unto God, tearing down evry stronghold  and fortress that exalts itself against the true knowledge of God(this is fire).

We (as called by Him) ALREADY occupy the offices of PRIESTS which ARE [not will be] teaching men, tearing down the BARRIERS which separate His Children from Him. 

RECONCILING however, is NEVER EVER, ...done by men... GOD RECONCILES men to Himself -- 2 Cor 5:19 --  It is HIS WORD which we are HONORED to bestow at HIS LEADING that RECONCILES men to Himself...

Though we DO minister HIS WORD to them... We in truth are no more "accomplishing" His work, then does a HAMMER build the cabinet!!    :dontknow:  And this is the GRAVE ERROR which is made by these "believers" which call Him LORD (such can only be done BY the HOLY SPIRIT -- 1 Cor 12:3):  Matt 7:22-23 -- for they are TOOLS, seen taking credit for GOD's great WORK, instead of noting themselves as humble TOOLS in His HAND, as HE WORKED...  :sigh:

Quote from: eaglesway on September 25, 2009, 01:43:38 AMUntil God abolishes all rule power and authority because God is over all in all and through all, in other words ALL CREATION UNIFIED IN HARMONY.

Agreed!  :boogie:

That is the process of the (time) unfolding of the KNOWLEDGE of GOD (good & evil), in which we are all particpants brother Eaglesway...  :dontknow:

Quote from: eaglesway on September 25, 2009, 01:43:38 AMThat is the true knowledge, God wants all men reconciled, and "Works all things after the counsel of His will".(also Ephesians 1) That is why the whole creation groans eagerly awaiting the revelation of the sons of God who wilparticipate with God in the SETTING FREE of creation into the glorious liberty of the sons of God(Romans 8:19-22)

God more than "wants" all men reconciled, He has seen TO it!  The setting FREE of Creation is that the WORD of GOD permeates it...

These verses -- Rom 8:19-22 -- don't speak of the Sons of God "assisting" Him in FREEING Creation...

They speak of the SONS which shall have the GLORY (of the "FREEING" WORD) REVEALED in them, which is the manifestation of them AS SONS... (which you might discover, if you back up to verse 18)

For it is the WORD which CREATES "freedom" -- John 7:32  -- and it is THE WORD that is unfolded (revealed) WITHIN US that FREES us, and that FREEDOM thereby extends to the CREATION... which has suffered and become IMPRISONED and enslaved to death, due to our disobedience which brought DEATH into the Creation... (verse 21)

ALL this is done by GOD (who is working ALL THINGS)... to HIS GLORY, not to ours...  :thumbsup:

Quote from: eaglesway on September 25, 2009, 01:43:38 AM1Jn 2:2  and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Note that John notes PROPITIATION as in the PRESENT TENSE... for GOD is a "now" kind of GOD... The "propitiation" ...IS... an already ESTABLISHED FACT... due to the SLAIN LAMB at the FOUNDATION of the WORLD... in which that PREORDAINED FACT, eventually unfolded IT's ETERNAL TRUTH (already done) within the FINITE passing of TIME...

Quote from: eaglesway on September 25, 2009, 01:43:38 AMJoh 1:29  The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

YES! -- That which is TAKEN AWAY, is... ahemmmm...  NO LONGER THERE!  :myahoo: :boogie: :boydance:

Quote from: eaglesway on September 25, 2009, 01:43:38 AMGod does not love or forgive His enemies if He annihlates them or torments them forever. If He deals with men through "the hour of trial that is to come upon all those who dwell upon the face of the earth" (excusing only the overcomers from that trial, the first resurrection priesthood), then He reproves men in order to restore them.

No one is "EXCUSED"... SIN is SIN and JUDGMENT ...BEGINS... at the house of GOD -- 1 Pet 4:17 -- JUDGMENT is about LEARNING RIGHTOUSENESS -- Isaiah 26:9 -- and is NOT a BAD THING at all!  It is for our GOOD.

As you present it above, appears to note GOD, as being PARTIAL (to these "1st resurrectioners"), which is contrary to the idea of IMPARTIALITY  GOD notes TEN TIMES in the Scriptures, stating He is NOT any such thing, ...for neither YOU or I chose to be WHO we are, where, when and to whom we were born... Or ANY OTHER parameter of our present existence!

If GOD made Peter and Moses who they were, due to NOTHING they (of their own merit) did to become who they "became"... and by HIS PURPOSE ENABLED them to become who they eventually became -- See Rom 9:11

The how can He name Himself IMPARTIAL to ALL MEN, ...if HITLER or PHARAOH were made who THEY WERE due to NOTHING they (of their own merit) did, and yet ENABLED THEM to become who they "became"?

Well the TRUTH is that EVIL serves the cause of GOOD in the end.  And GOD even endorses this idea in Rom 9:17 -- Ex 9:16

I do not advocate the practice of EVIL... but if it were not there, how could you determine something as GOOD?  If everyone was 6 feet tall, how can you know them to be TALL?  Well -- short defines tall, and Up is defined by DOWN and both are NEEDFUL for one OR the other to find definition...

GOD's KNOWLEDGE of EVIL defines its other side ---> GOOD... for they are together -- ONE KNOWLEDGE as is noted in Gen 2:9 & 17 -- ONE KNOWLEDGE with 2 defining sides...

I will explain in my points below, WHY this (partiality TO and "EXCUSING OF" -- "1st resurrectioners") vision is AMISS... and how this shall all work out for ALL, with GOD remaining NO RESPECTER (impartial) of PERSONS at the CONCLUSION of the LAST DAY...  :cloud9:

It is quite correct that GOD shall NEVER eternally torment men, as I have already indicated above, He LOVES men, ...His "enemies" are not, and never were MEN... His "enemies" are those things which MEN DO... while amidst the unfolding of HIS -- KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL...

The "trial" of LIFE is upon us Eaglesway... and "ALL those who dwell upon the earth", "DWELL" upon it at differing points IN TIME... In those lifetimes is REPROOF found for practiced disobedience...  Which is WHY there is much SORROW, in THIS LIFE, ...NOW... and always HAS been with humans, since the beginning.

That you and I had no consent to our IMMERSION into all the burden, sorrow and losses experienced in THIS LIFE, is because we are RIGHTLY subject to the work of the ALMIGHTY YHVH, instead of the other way around. 

HE doesn"t "react" to US, and then "torments" us because of SIN... we "react" to HIM and recieve our "torments" because it is part of the process of PERFECTION -- Heb 2:10 -- NO MAN, escapes SUFFERING, because it is NEEDFUL within the DIVINE process of the conveyance of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL... which brings us to PERFECTION, for BOTH GOOD and EVIL are part of the PERFECT KNOWLEDGE of GOD -- Gen 3:22

The CLAY is MARRED in the HAND of the POTTER (at His decision that it be MARRED) -- Jer 18:4 - Rom 9:20

He decides ALL parameters of LIFE and DEATH... as well as RESURRECTION... The only thing that shall be found different between the FIRST resurrection and the SECOND, is that the 2nd DEATH shall not HURT those in the 1st resurrection --  --

The biggest question I find in debate with you and others in the Babylonian mindset, is the nature of that "HURT" as well as what the "2nd death" actually is...

Commonly... the Christian believes the "LAKE of FIRE" to be (1) somewhere in the "FUTURE" (instead of NOW) and, either -- (2) "HELL" -- a place of ETERNAL TORMENT -- or (3) a place of TEMPORARY TORMENT in which one shall have the negativity of his earthly and fleshly life TORMENTED out of him (as you have endeavored to preach from your perspective - "pay the VERY last farthing" then get released)... 

These perspectives are Spiritually BLINDED as I see it... and I believe to offer a MUCH BETTER and TRUTHFUL observation of the LOF, ...which (1) includes LOVE (2) MERCY (3) PEACE -- ALL of which are SUPPOSED to be elements of the GOSPEL (which means GOOD NEWS)...  :dontknow: -- Here it is:

FIRST -- CHRIST is the IMAGE of the invisible God... and in that IMAGE, while in the FLESH of MAN, ...He was tempted, disrespected, endured much SUFFERING (torment), and finally suffered DEATH.

GOD is NO RESPECTER of PERSONS (impartial), which means that if CHRIST were to undergo all these things, ...EVERY OTHER MAN, shall follow suit.  CHRIST experienced ALL these in THIS LIFE, on THIS EARTH, while interacting as a member of the human race.  He was the FIRST of many SONS... to follow.  ALL that occured in CHRIST's life... occured before there was even a MAN to suffer.  For He was SLAIN (which was the conclusion of all these negativies) from the FOUNDATION of the world.

SECOND -- let's discuss the "2nd death"... Man (Adam) Spiritually DIED as did all his descendants, upon his initial disobedience to the COMMAND of GOD.  So in essence... ALL MEN even though PHYSICALLY alive, are (since Adam) born SPIRITUALLY  DEAD... CHRIST was born of a human mother, which passed on to Him that unfortunate legacy.  He resided in FLESH which was ABLE to be TEMPTED, SUFFER, and DIE... Well, unlike all others, ...He did NOT disobey the COMMAND of GOD...  And even though He was born with the genetics of SPIRITUAL DEATH... He put to DEATH that which condemns all other MEN to DEATH... Even in His obedience to GOD, He was put to PHYSICAL DEATH.  Which I maintain is the "2nd death" (spiritual being first), and IN taking a PERFECT and UNBLEMISHED LIFE to the Grave... He was able to DIE (spirit removed) and TASTE DEATH (spiritual) for ALL MEN, which re-established (for ALL) the FIRST LIFE that Adam LOST (for ALL)... which is SPIRIT --  Heb 2:9

THIRD -- You and many of your "christian" brethren, preach that the LAKE of FIRE is an entity which shall come at the END of the human race...  but I beg to differ, for the END IS the BEGINNING and vice versa -- Rev 1:8 ...That in my FIRST point, I noted that CHRIST experienced SUFFERING and TORMENT, as well as many other SORROWS is evidence that the LAKE of FIRE is present NOW... and THE smoke OF the TORMENTS rise up forever... It is the TORMENTS which are burning up in THIS LIFE, never to be suffered again EVER! ...and that TIME is the FIRE in which we (in our varying  torments) BURN... :nod:

CHRIST shall NEVER be TORMENTED again, for HIS TORMENT has BURNED and EXPIRED while in this LIFE, which is the LAKE of FIRE, and that TORMENT was the RECONCILING factor which gives LIFE back in the SPIRIT to all those who DIE the 1st death (SPIRITUAL) because of DISOBEDIENCE to the COMMAND of GOD, and resultingly, ...the 2nd Death (PHYSICAL)...

Rev 20:14 describes to a "T" that DEATH and HADES [hell for BAB'S] which are partners -- One DIES then is set in the GRAVE -- and BOTH these together comprise the "2nd DEATH" -- which is the WAGE of SIN...  CHRIST did not taste" this death FOR us... we ALL go down to the GRAVE one by one for ourselves.

However, CHRIST died to His own WILL from the "get-go"... always submitting His own human "will" to the DIVINE WILL of  YHVH... in this, "dieing" to His own... which is the DEATH which He tasted for ALL men -- Heb 2:9 -- taking His OBEDIENCE (which was GOD WORKING His WILL IN HIM) to His earthly GRAVE... whereas we all DIE -- gaining the unfortunate "earnings" which we bring upon ourselves by OUR WORKS...

FOURTH -- The 2nd death shall find that those who do NOT die to themselves in THIS LIFE, shall come forth in the resurrection, bearing their SHAME... and in the NAKEDNESS of IT -- Rev 3:18 -- it is in this final sorrow ON THE LAST DAY, that MOST knees shall bow, and CONFESS that JESUS CHRIST is Lord... to which GOD shall "WIPE AWAY" ALL tears produced at this regretful sorrow... which is essentially what OCCURED in your and my experience at the REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST to us, while in THIS LIFE...

GOD is thereby seen as NO RESPECTER of PERSONS (impartial)... as ALL men SUFFER in this LIFE (including our Savior).  And their TORMENTS are burned up in THIS LAKE of FIRE, and it is the smoke OF the TORMENTS experienced that rise for ever and ever as a reminder of the experience of the indulgence of EVIL -- Rev 14:11 -- and NO man is found paying in ANY WAY for ANY SIN, rather... ALL are brought to TEARS (in and during THIS LIFE [1st resurrection] or upon the 2nd resurrection which takes place on the LAST DAY -- John 6:44), and it is the GRACE and LOVE of GOD that "wipes those tears away", never for them to appear again.

And therein is found the TRUE GOOD NEWS which IS the GOSPEL of PEACE...

(1) CHRIST thereby DID "take away" the sin of the WORLD -- 1 John 2:2 -- John 1:29 -- and,

(2)  The FATHER DID reconcile ALL things at the CROSS of CHRIST making PEACE (not further TORMENT) -- Col 1:20 -- and,

(3)  IS no respecter of persons (impartial) -- Acts 10:34 -- 2 Sam 14:14 (and 8 others) -- as PEACE is found in being released from THIS SINFUL FLESH --  which IS the BODY of THIS DEATH! -- Rom 7:24 ...and,

(4)  God IS not holding our trespasses against us -- 2 Cor 5:19 -- 1 John 2:2 -- And,

(5)  that which is SOWN to the flesh is REAPED of the flesh (as in disease, heartbreak, poverty, shame, famine, wars, natural disasters, etc) -- Gal 6:8

:Peace: be unto you Eaglesway...  :cloud9:

Quote from: willieH on September 26, 2009, 02:12:50 AM
willieH: Hi Eaglesway... :hithere:

PART 2:

Quote from: eaglesway on September 25, 2009, 01:43:38 AMNot a lot is given about the ages to come, but we will reign with Him AS PRIESTS (teaching men, reconciling men unto God, tearing down evry stronghold  and fortress that exalts itself against the true knowledge of God(this is fire).

We (as called by Him) ALREADY occupy the offices of PRIESTS which ARE [not will be] teaching men, tearing down the BARRIERS which separate His Children from Him. 

RECONCILING however, is NEVER EVER, ...done by men... GOD RECONCILES men to Himself -- 2 Cor 5:19 --  It is HIS WORD which we are HONORED to bestow at HIS LEADING that RECONCILES men to Himself...

Though we DO minister HIS WORD to them... We in truth are no more "accomplishing" His work, then does a HAMMER build the cabinet!!    :dontknow:  And this is the GRAVE ERROR which is made by these "believers" which call Him LORD (such can only be done BY the HOLY SPIRIT -- 1 Cor 12:3):  Matt 7:22-23 -- for they are TOOLS, seen taking credit for GOD's great WORK, instead of noting themselves as humble TOOLS in His HAND, as HE WORKED...  :sigh:

Quote from: eaglesway on September 25, 2009, 01:43:38 AMUntil God abolishes all rule power and authority because God is over all in all and through all, in other words ALL CREATION UNIFIED IN HARMONY.

Agreed!  :boogie:

That is the process of the (time) unfolding of the KNOWLEDGE of GOD (good & evil), in which we are all particpants brother Eaglesway...  :dontknow:

Quote from: eaglesway on September 25, 2009, 01:43:38 AMThat is the true knowledge, God wants all men reconciled, and "Works all things after the counsel of His will".(also Ephesians 1) That is why the whole creation groans eagerly awaiting the revelation of the sons of God who wilparticipate with God in the SETTING FREE of creation into the glorious liberty of the sons of God(Romans 8:19-22)

God more than "wants" all men reconciled, He has seen TO it!  The setting FREE of Creation is that the WORD of GOD permeates it...

These verses -- Rom 8:19-22 -- don't speak of the Sons of God "assisting" Him in FREEING Creation...

They speak of the SONS which shall have the GLORY (of the "FREEING" WORD) REVEALED in them, which is the manifestation of them AS SONS... (which you might discover, if you back up to verse 18)

For it is the WORD which CREATES "freedom" -- John 7:32  -- and it is THE WORD that is unfolded (revealed) WITHIN US that FREES us, and that FREEDOM thereby extends to the CREATION... which has suffered and become IMPRISONED and enslaved to death, due to our disobedience which brought DEATH into the Creation... (verse 21)

ALL this is done by GOD (who is working ALL THINGS)... to HIS GLORY, not to ours...  :thumbsup:

Quote from: eaglesway on September 25, 2009, 01:43:38 AM1Jn 2:2  and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Note that John notes PROPITIATION as in the PRESENT TENSE... for GOD is a "now" kind of GOD... The "propitiation" ...IS... an already ESTABLISHED FACT... due to the SLAIN LAMB at the FOUNDATION of the WORLD... in which that PREORDAINED FACT, eventually unfolded IT's ETERNAL TRUTH (already done) within the FINITE passing of TIME...

Quote from: eaglesway on September 25, 2009, 01:43:38 AMJoh 1:29  The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

YES! -- That which is TAKEN AWAY, is... ahemmmm...  NO LONGER THERE!  :myahoo: :boogie: :boydance:

Quote from: eaglesway on September 25, 2009, 01:43:38 AMGod does not love or forgive His enemies if He annihlates them or torments them forever. If He deals with men through "the hour of trial that is to come upon all those who dwell upon the face of the earth" (excusing only the overcomers from that trial, the first resurrection priesthood), then He reproves men in order to restore them.

No one is "EXCUSED"... SIN is SIN and JUDGMENT ...BEGINS... at the house of GOD -- 1 Pet 4:17 -- JUDGMENT is about LEARNING RIGHTOUSENESS -- Isaiah 26:9 -- and is NOT a BAD THING at all!  It is for our GOOD.

As you present it above, appears to note GOD, as being PARTIAL (to these "1st resurrectioners"), which is contrary to the idea of IMPARTIALITY  GOD notes TEN TIMES in the Scriptures, stating He is NOT any such thing, ...for neither YOU or I chose to be WHO we are, where, when and to whom we were born... Or ANY OTHER parameter of our present existence!

If GOD made Peter and Moses who they were, due to NOTHING they (of their own merit) did to become who they "became"... and by HIS PURPOSE ENABLED them to become who they eventually became -- See Rom 9:11

The how can He name Himself IMPARTIAL to ALL MEN, ...if HITLER or PHARAOH were made who THEY WERE due to NOTHING they (of their own merit) did, and yet ENABLED THEM to become who they "became"?

Well the TRUTH is that EVIL serves the cause of GOOD in the end.  And GOD even endorses this idea in Rom 9:17 -- Ex 9:16

I do not advocate the practice of EVIL... but if it were not there, how could you determine something as GOOD?  If everyone was 6 feet tall, how can you know them to be TALL?  Well -- short defines tall, and Up is defined by DOWN and both are NEEDFUL for one OR the other to find definition...

GOD's KNOWLEDGE of EVIL defines its other side ---> GOOD... for they are together -- ONE KNOWLEDGE as is noted in Gen 2:9 & 17 -- ONE KNOWLEDGE with 2 defining sides...

I will explain in my points below, WHY this (partiality TO and "EXCUSING OF" -- "1st resurrectioners") vision is AMISS... and how this shall all work out for ALL, with GOD remaining NO RESPECTER (impartial) of PERSONS at the CONCLUSION of the LAST DAY...  :cloud9:

It is quite correct that GOD shall NEVER eternally torment men, as I have already indicated above, He LOVES men, ...His "enemies" are not, and never were MEN... His "enemies" are those things which MEN DO... while amidst the unfolding of HIS -- KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL...

The "trial" of LIFE is upon us Eaglesway... and "ALL those who dwell upon the earth", "DWELL" upon it at differing points IN TIME... In those lifetimes is REPROOF found for practiced disobedience...  Which is WHY there is much SORROW, in THIS LIFE, ...NOW... and always HAS been with humans, since the beginning.

That you and I had no consent to our IMMERSION into all the burden, sorrow and losses experienced in THIS LIFE, is because we are RIGHTLY subject to the work of the ALMIGHTY YHVH, instead of the other way around. 

HE doesn"t "react" to US, and then "torments" us because of SIN... we "react" to HIM and recieve our "torments" because it is part of the process of PERFECTION -- Heb 2:10 -- NO MAN, escapes SUFFERING, because it is NEEDFUL within the DIVINE process of the conveyance of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL... which brings us to PERFECTION, for BOTH GOOD and EVIL are part of the PERFECT KNOWLEDGE of GOD -- Gen 3:22

The CLAY is MARRED in the HAND of the POTTER (at His decision that it be MARRED) -- Jer 18:4 - Rom 9:20

He decides ALL parameters of LIFE and DEATH... as well as RESURRECTION... The only thing that shall be found different between the FIRST resurrection and the SECOND, is that the 2nd DEATH shall not HURT those in the 1st resurrection --  --

The biggest question I find in debate with you and others in the Babylonian mindset, is the nature of that "HURT" as well as what the "2nd death" actually is...

Commonly... the Christian believes the "LAKE of FIRE" to be (1) somewhere in the "FUTURE" (instead of NOW) and, either -- (2) "HELL" -- a place of ETERNAL TORMENT -- or (3) a place of TEMPORARY TORMENT in which one shall have the negativity of his earthly and fleshly life TORMENTED out of him (as you have endeavored to preach from your perspective - "pay the VERY last farthing" then get released)... 

These perspectives are Spiritually BLINDED as I see it... and I believe to offer a MUCH BETTER and TRUTHFUL observation of the LOF, ...which (1) includes LOVE (2) MERCY (3) PEACE -- ALL of which are SUPPOSED to be elements of the GOSPEL (which means GOOD NEWS)...  :dontknow: -- Here it is:

FIRST -- CHRIST is the IMAGE of the invisible God... and in that IMAGE, while in the FLESH of MAN, ...He was tempted, disrespected, endured much SUFFERING (torment), and finally suffered DEATH.

GOD is NO RESPECTER of PERSONS (impartial), which means that if CHRIST were to undergo all these things, ...EVERY OTHER MAN, shall follow suit.  CHRIST experienced ALL these in THIS LIFE, on THIS EARTH, while interacting as a member of the human race.  He was the FIRST of many SONS... to follow.  ALL that occured in CHRIST's life... occured before there was even a MAN to suffer.  For He was SLAIN (which was the conclusion of all these negativies) from the FOUNDATION of the world.

SECOND -- let's discuss the "2nd death"... Man (Adam) Spiritually DIED as did all his descendants, upon his initial disobedience to the COMMAND of GOD.  So in essence... ALL MEN even though PHYSICALLY alive, are (since Adam) born SPIRITUALLY  DEAD... CHRIST was born of a human mother, which passed on to Him that unfortunate legacy.  He resided in FLESH which was ABLE to be TEMPTED, SUFFER, and DIE... Well, unlike all others, ...He did NOT disobey the COMMAND of GOD...  And even though He was born with the genetics of SPIRITUAL DEATH... He put to DEATH that which condemns all other MEN to DEATH... Even in His obedience to GOD, He was put to PHYSICAL DEATH.  Which I maintain is the "2nd death" (spiritual being first), and IN taking a PERFECT and UNBLEMISHED LIFE to the Grave... He was able to DIE (spirit removed) and TASTE DEATH (spiritual) for ALL MEN, which re-established (for ALL) the FIRST LIFE that Adam LOST (for ALL)... which is SPIRIT --  Heb 2:9

THIRD -- You and many of your "christian" brethren, preach that the LAKE of FIRE is an entity which shall come at the END of the human race...  but I beg to differ, for the END IS the BEGINNING and vice versa -- Rev 1:8 ...That in my FIRST point, I noted that CHRIST experienced SUFFERING and TORMENT, as well as many other SORROWS is evidence that the LAKE of FIRE is present NOW... and THE smoke OF the TORMENTS rise up forever... It is the TORMENTS which are burning up in THIS LIFE, never to be suffered again EVER! ...and that TIME is the FIRE in which we (in our varying  torments) BURN... :nod:

CHRIST shall NEVER be TORMENTED again, for HIS TORMENT has BURNED and EXPIRED while in this LIFE, which is the LAKE of FIRE, and that TORMENT was the RECONCILING factor which gives LIFE back in the SPIRIT to all those who DIE the 1st death (SPIRITUAL) because of DISOBEDIENCE to the COMMAND of GOD, and resultingly, ...the 2nd Death (PHYSICAL)...

Rev 20:14 describes to a "T" that DEATH and HADES [hell for BAB'S] which are partners -- One DIES then is set in the GRAVE -- and BOTH these together comprise the "2nd DEATH" -- which is the WAGE of SIN...  CHRIST did not taste" this death FOR us... we ALL go down to the GRAVE one by one for ourselves.

However, CHRIST died to His own WILL from the "get-go"... always submitting His own human "will" to the DIVINE WILL of  YHVH... in this, "dieing" to His own... which is the DEATH which He tasted for ALL men -- Heb 2:9 -- taking His OBEDIENCE (which was GOD WORKING His WILL IN HIM) to His earthly GRAVE... whereas we all DIE -- gaining the unfortunate "earnings" which we bring upon ourselves by OUR WORKS...

FOURTH -- The 2nd death shall find that those who do NOT die to themselves in THIS LIFE, shall come forth in the resurrection, bearing their SHAME... and in the NAKEDNESS of IT -- Rev 3:18 -- it is in this final sorrow ON THE LAST DAY, that MOST knees shall bow, and CONFESS that JESUS CHRIST is Lord... to which GOD shall "WIPE AWAY" ALL tears produced at this regretful sorrow... which is essentially what OCCURED in your and my experience at the REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST to us, while in THIS LIFE...

GOD is thereby seen as NO RESPECTER of PERSONS (impartial)... as ALL men SUFFER in this LIFE (including our Savior).  And their TORMENTS are burned up in THIS LAKE of FIRE, and it is the smoke OF the TORMENTS experienced that rise for ever and ever as a reminder of the experience of the indulgence of EVIL -- Rev 14:11 -- and NO man is found paying in ANY WAY for ANY SIN, rather... ALL are brought to TEARS (in and during THIS LIFE [1st resurrection] or upon the 2nd resurrection which takes place on the LAST DAY -- John 6:44), and it is the GRACE and LOVE of GOD that "wipes those tears away", never for them to appear again.

And therein is found the TRUE GOOD NEWS which IS the GOSPEL of PEACE...

(1) CHRIST thereby DID "take away" the sin of the WORLD -- 1 John 2:2 -- John 1:29 -- and,

(2)  The FATHER DID reconcile ALL things at the CROSS of CHRIST making PEACE (not further TORMENT) -- Col 1:20 -- and,

(3)  IS no respecter of persons (impartial) -- Acts 10:34 -- 2 Sam 14:14 (and 8 others) -- as PEACE is found in being released from THIS SINFUL FLESH --  which IS the BODY of THIS DEATH! -- Rom 7:24 ...and,

(4)  God IS not holding our trespasses against us -- 2 Cor 5:19 -- 1 John 2:2 -- And,

(5)  that which is SOWN to the flesh is REAPED of the flesh (as in disease, heartbreak, poverty, shame, famine, wars, natural disasters, etc) -- Gal 6:8

:Peace: be unto you Eaglesway...  :cloud9:

...willieH (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/somebody614/grouphug2.gif)

That's beautful and I agree but most christian will ask you one most common question:

what about john 3:16?

Quote from: Seth on September 25, 2009, 09:21:43 PM
Sparrow you seem like a pretty reasonable person. Tell me what you think.

Suppose someone has just enough money to pay for either a roof addition according to the building code in the Law of Moses, or to build a fence around his yard. Hypothetically, suppose roof access is impossible for a given reason so nobody can get up there, and the man builds a fence instead because he has concrete steps that the neighborhood kids could fall on. He decides to spend his last dime to build the fence out of concern for the children. Has he fulfilled the law?

Yes. He has fulfilled the law.

"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

When the two great commandments are written on your heart, you have no need for the law.
Not that the law is done away with but that you no longer need it as your Teacher.

The law gives sin power.
Love completely takes it's power away.

"The magnanimity of love, ascending and descending; never separated from the divine nature."

willieH: HI I-D... :hithere:

Quote from: IceDash on September 26, 2009, 02:47:33 AM
That's beautful and I agree but most christian will ask you one most common question:

what about john 3:16?

I would say to them, "KEEP READING"...  :reachout:

John 3:17 -- For GOD ...SENT NOT... His Son into the WORLD [He so loved] to CONDEMN the WORLD [He so loved]; but that the WORLD [He so loved], through Him might be SAVED.

If YHVH sent His Son with the DIRECTIVE to NOT CONDEMN -- then it displays that it is the WILL of GOD that men NOT be CONDEMNED...

And that CHRIST condemned NO ONE, displays His AGREEMENT with the WILL of YHVH...

If these 2 -- GOD and His WORD -- are both UNWILLING to CONDEMN men... who or what is there, to CONDEMN us?

I would add... that GRACE does ABOUND MUCH MORE that does SIN in EVERY instance -- Rom 5:20 --- which is More GOOD NEWS - eh?  :dontknow:

THAT is what I would say to those -- "christians" -- IceDash...  :boyheart:

Quote from: sparrow on September 26, 2009, 03:16:33 AM

Quote from: Seth on September 25, 2009, 09:21:43 PM
Sparrow you seem like a pretty reasonable person. Tell me what you think.

Suppose someone has just enough money to pay for either a roof addition according to the building code in the Law of Moses, or to build a fence around his yard. Hypothetically, suppose roof access is impossible for a given reason so nobody can get up there, and the man builds a fence instead because he has concrete steps that the neighborhood kids could fall on. He decides to spend his last dime to build the fence out of concern for the children. Has he fulfilled the law?

Yes. He has fulfilled the law.

"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

When the two great commandments are written on your heart, you have no need for the law.
Not that the law is done away with but that you no longer need it as your Teacher.

The law gives sin power.
Love completely takes it's power away.

Sparrow,  :Urock:

I would say to them, "KEEP READING"...  :reachout:


lol.

God Bless Willie!

Quotewhat about john 3:16?

1 John 3:14-17
We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has aionios life IN HIM. This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be IN him? Jesus Christ is....the way....the truth....and what?

According to John, where does aionios-life abide? If your answer is: "it dwells within" you get a prize. And this is the prize: Biblical accuracy. Doesn't it make sense? If someone hates his brother in his heart how could he have LIFE within him? Obviously he couldn't. With that in mind, here Here is the definition of aionios life:

John 17:3
And this is life aionios: that they might know you, the one true God, and Him whom You did send, Jesus Christ.

1 John 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and aionios-life.

You see? Now, back to John 3:16. That those who believe in Christ may not be perishing (death, think about sin and what the wages of it are) but have aionios life. I ask you this: If the definition of aionios life is knowledge of God, can you see why belief is critical? CAN YOU KNOW ME IF YOU DON'T EVEN BELIEVE I EXIST?  :laughing7:

Of course not. Jesus believes in everyone, obviously. But not everyone believes in him, and they don't all know him yet, and that is why those who are believing have aionios life (to know God and his Son), and those who are not....do not. But every knee will bow, and every tongue shall confess in time, and all who were dead in Adam will be vivified in Christ and they will all know him.

:cloud9:

That is what I would tell them.

   I agree with much of your post Willie. If I wanted to make all my posts as long as all your replies, I could explain every possible tense and relationship between time and eternity as I see it.

    It is obvious, for instance, that we are already priests of God in Christ. That does not necessarily eliminate the possibility of further functions in the ages to come. Obviously not all men have entered the day. They are children of the night. Therefore it is necessary to use the terminology of time and space at times, and while some of your disagreements with my posts are substantial, some of them are just splitting hairs.

      For example, we have been entrusted with the ministry of reconciliation as priests of God unto men in Christ- of course, it is obvious, only God is capable of performing the actual reconciliation, through the shed blood of Christ- this kind of objection on your part is just splitting hairs.

2Co 5:18-20  Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,  (19)  that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God.


Again, I have quoted in almost every post "who causes all things to work according to the counsel of His will". Obviously, God wants all men reconciled and has accomplished all he "wants" in the finished work of Christ. Yet, in the administration of the mystery, that finished work is unfolding towards the "day" of God being all in all. As regards the present moment Paul states that God desires/wills all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth", but of course they are not all saved/reconciled now, some of them are still "enemies in their mind and alienated from God because of evil behavior" as we "were." You could insist on speaking as if all men are "already" reconciled because the provision is made, but they are not, nor where they in the pre flood kosmos, and apparently they will not all be reconciled in the age to come, hence, the "reign" and the "rod of iron".


We participate in this as priests and as sons having received the inheritance, in His name. Even Jesus said..... "I can of mine own self do nothing". "As we see the day approaching", there may be differences in our understanding-but the finished work of which you so eloquently speak is being worked out in time and space- it may be finished in the mind of God, and in the mind of those who walk in the day, but as Paul said

2Th 3:2  And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.

Rom 8:25  But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

Perhaps you would correct Paul and say, "Hey Paul, we already have it!"

We do not yet see all subject to Him, but we know "It is finished", but they do not know. So there are administration in effect now and administrations yet to come "as the day approaches".

2Pe 3:8-10  And this one thing let not be unobserved by you, beloved, that one day with the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day; (9)  the Lord is not slow in regard to the promise, as certain count slowness, but is long-suffering to us, not counselling any to be lost but all to pass on to reformation,  (10)  and it will come--the day of the Lord--as a thief in the night, in which the heavens with a rushing noise will pass away, and the elements with burning heat be dissolved, and earth and the works in it shall be burnt up.

The language of the mystery of time and eternity changes from time to time in the scriptures depending on the purpose and perspective of the Holy Spirit in the passages and their subject matter. We could pick that apart in one another for ages to no profit.

I think the difference between reconciliation and salvation continues to elude.. :dontknow:

Quote from: Seth on September 26, 2009, 06:03:53 AM
CAN YOU KNOW ME IF YOU DON'T EVEN BELIEVE I EXIST?  :laughing7:

Well, odd as it may sound (and I know it sounds very odd to many), I do actually sometimes wonder about that.  Aionios life is knowledge of God, absolutely.  But 1 John actually goes on and specifically says what it means to know God:

"Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love." (1 John 4:7-8)

In other words, knowing God and loving are interchangeable - one necessarily implies the other.  Of course, one may say then that anyone who does not believe God exists is incapable of love - and I have certainly heard that claim - but this just plain does not sit well with me at all.  I've met many who did not, and quite frankly they seemed no less loving on the whole than those who believed 100% that God exists.

It's for this reason that I've grown to feel that it may actually be the case that there may well be those who know God without even knowing that they know God.  I'm always reminded here of the fact that the sheep in Matthew 25:31-46 seem genuinely surprised at the fact that what they did for those in need were done for God as well.

Quote from: Gab on September 26, 2009, 10:25:09 AM

Quote from: Seth on September 26, 2009, 06:03:53 AM
CAN YOU KNOW ME IF YOU DON'T EVEN BELIEVE I EXIST?  :laughing7:

Well, odd as it may sound (and I know it sounds very odd to many), I do actually sometimes wonder about that.  Aionios life is knowledge of God, absolutely.  But 1 John actually goes on and specifically says what it means to know God:

"Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love." (1 John 4:7-8)

In other words, knowing God and loving are interchangeable - one necessarily implies the other.  Of course, one may say then that anyone who does not believe God exists is incapable of love - and I have certainly heard that claim - but this just plain does not sit well with me at all.  I've met many who did not, and quite frankly they seemed no less loving on the whole than those who believed 100% that God exists.

It's for this reason that I've grown to feel that it may actually be the case that there may well be those who know God without even knowing that they know God.  I'm always reminded here of the fact that the sheep in Matthew 25:31-46 seem genuinely surprised at the fact that what they did for those in need were done for God as well.

This would be true only if you isolate 1 John 4:7-8 from the rest.

1 John 2:22
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

1 John 2:22
Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son.

Galatians 3:22
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

1 John 3
23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

I guess we could say that people who denies Jesus is the Christ, don't deny it, and those don't believe do believe and those who don't have faith do have faith, and that black is white, and a dog is a cat, and on is off, and an apple is a lemon, and so forth. I think we can all agree that we can make the Bible say whatever we want it to say. I've seen it time and again. This message will not make you a friend with the world. The cross is an offense. Nevertheless...

Quote from: Gab on September 26, 2009, 10:25:09 AM

Quote from: Seth on September 26, 2009, 06:03:53 AM
CAN YOU KNOW ME IF YOU DON'T EVEN BELIEVE I EXIST?  :laughing7:

Well, odd as it may sound (and I know it sounds very odd to many), I do actually sometimes wonder about that.  Aionios life is knowledge of God, absolutely.  But 1 John actually goes on and specifically says what it means to know God:

"Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love." (1 John 4:7-8)

In other words, knowing God and loving are interchangeable - one necessarily implies the other.  Of course, one may say then that anyone who does not believe God exists is incapable of love - and I have certainly heard that claim - but this just plain does not sit well with me at all.  I've met many who did not, and quite frankly they seemed no less loving on the whole than those who believed 100% that God exists.

It's for this reason that I've grown to feel that it may actually be the case that there may well be those who know God without even knowing that they know God.  I'm always reminded here of the fact that the sheep in Matthew 25:31-46 seem genuinely surprised at the fact that what they did for those in need were done for God as well.

Gab I totally agree with that.
Some people who dont believe know God better sometimes than an ENTIRE church, because they (the unbeliever) have love and mercy etc (more attributes of God).
In fact i said to my mother the other day (who is not a Christian).
"Mum, i believe that one day God will save everyone", and she said
"Didnt you already know that?".

If you tell people the truth: that they must believe in Jesus, and if they don't have Jesus, they don't have the Father and to believe in the Son is God's commandment, you will be unliked by the world. They will persecute you for that.

They will say things like: "that's arrogant" " who are you to tell me" and so forth and so on.

Jesus PROMISED us that we would be hated for his name's sake. WHY? Why would the Gospel cause both Greeks and Jews to persecute Paul? It was good news right? So why the persecution for spreading good news?

Because the good news says: REPENT, for the kingdom of God is at hand. The good news is that we can have, "joy peace and righteousness in the Holy Spirit." That is the kingdom. But when people are sleeping with hookers, and doing drugs and following FALSE gods (that's right, I said it), do they want to be told "Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand?" Of course not. Do they want to be told not to worship false gods, that they should give everything up, believe on the Son and follow him alone? NO!

The world will HAAAATE that message. The good news is deliverance from sin. But when people don't want that deliverance, when they want to surround themselves by what they unwittingly kill themsleves with, they hear the COMMANDMENTS of God and scoff and hate that good news message of reconciliation and SALVATION from sin.

Whenever I hear a message that makes the truth easy to swallow for the world, I immediately know that something isn't right. People who don't believe, don't believe. It's as simple as that. And without faith, it is impossible to please God. That's the truth.

The Gospel is good news, but that Good News is absolutely HOSTILE to sin. That is why the apostles were persecuted by the world.


Galatians 5:11
Dear brothers and sisters, if I were still preaching that you must be circumcised—as some say I do—why am I still being persecuted? If I were no longer preaching salvation through the cross of Christ, no one would be offended.

Quote from: Seth on September 26, 2009, 06:58:25 PM
If you tell people the truth: that they must believe in Jesus, and if they don't have Jesus, they don't have the Father and to believe in the Son is God's commandment, you will be unliked by the world. They will persecute you for that.

They will say things like: "that's arrogant" " who are you to tell me" and so forth and so on.

Jesus PROMISED us that we would be hated for his name's sake. WHY? Why would the Gospel cause both Greeks and Jews to persecute Paul? It was good news right? So why the persecution for spreading good news?

Because the good news says: REPENT, for the kingdom of God is at hand. The good news is that we can have, "joy peace and righteousness in the Holy Spirit." That is the kingdom. But when people are sleeping with hookers, and doing drugs and following FALSE gods (that's right, I said it), do they want to be told "Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand?" Of course not. Do they want to be told not to worship false gods, that they should give everything up, believe on the Son and follow him alone? NO!

The world will HAAAATE that message. The good news is deliverance from sin. But when people don't want that deliverance, when they want to surround themselves by what they unwittingly kill themsleves with, they hear the COMMANDMENTS of God and scoff and hate that good news message of reconciliation and SALVATION from sin.

Whenever I hear a message that makes the truth easy to swallow for the world, I immediately know that something isn't right. People who don't believe, don't believe. It's as simple as that. And without faith, it is impossible to please God. That's the truth.

The Gospel is good news, but that Good News is absolutely HOSTILE to sin and death. That is why the apostles were persecuted by the world.


Galatians 5:11
Dear brothers and sisters, if I were still preaching that you must be circumcised—as some say I do—why am I still being persecuted? If I were no longer preaching salvation through the cross of Christ, no one would be offended.

Well i know how it feels to miss my sins, im getting better but...whoa, its been hard going for a long time...and you know what?  When i was really IN those sins i was totally and utterly miserable and wanted OUT of them.
Now they seem tempting, but i know its a lie now and i know they cause nothing but misery.

QuoteWhen i was really IN those sins i was totally and utterly miserable and wanted OUT of them.

I know what you mean.  Our sins cause us such misery, and yet, we are tempted to cling to them.  The whole world is miserable, thinking all the while it's seeking after pleasure.

YOu guys are really touching on an interesting issue. Sin feels good to the flesh, but I have never known anyone (including me) who sinned with all the things that seemed pleasurable, but were happy. The pleasures are immediate and easy to the flesh so they become habitual, yet deeper it's a deep wound that needs healing. Good word (works) guys.  :thumbsup:

Quote from: Molly on September 26, 2009, 07:41:55 PM

QuoteWhen i was really IN those sins i was totally and utterly miserable and wanted OUT of them.

Quote from: Molly on September 26, 2009, 07:41:55 PM

QuoteWhen i was really IN those sins i was totally and utterly miserable and wanted OUT of them.

I know what you mean.  Our sins cause us such misery, and yet, we are tempted to cling to them.  The whole world is miserable, thinking all the while it's seeking after pleasure.

I know what you mean.  Our sins cause us such misery, and yet, we are tempted to cling to them.  The whole world is miserable, thinking all the while it's seeking after pleasure.

Im having a total war in my mind right now over it all, it really is hell!
The spirit is pulling me one way, and the body the other...they just wont agree!  But i keep forcing the body "Listen!  Listen to the spirit, you know fine well God wants whats best for you, you know fine well your were MISERABLE in those sins and how horrible they made you feel...LISTEN!!!! LISTEN to God!  YARRRGHHH!!!"
Its working, but going to take time.  I was hoping i could repent in a day, and then avoid all this agony, but...its not the case!  My mind just struggles to conform, yet im getting better all the time, i can feel it.

Quote from: Seth on September 26, 2009, 07:44:45 PM
YOu guys are really touching on an interesting issue. Sin feels good to the flesh, but I have never known anyone (including me) who sinned with all the things that seemed pleasurable, but were happy. The pleasures are immediate and easy to the flesh so they become habitual, yet deeper it's a deep wound that needs healing. Good word (works) guys.  :thumbsup:

Yes Seth totally true,  its pleasurable for that period of time, then after wards, the words 'degraded', ashamed, 'used', weak, etc springs to mind...hardly awe-inspiring stuff that brings lasting pleasure.

Quote from: jesushandsarekindhands on September 26, 2009, 07:48:54 PM

Quote from: Seth on September 26, 2009, 07:44:45 PM
YOu guys are really touching on an interesting issue. Sin feels good to the flesh, but I have never known anyone (including me) who sinned with all the things that seemed pleasurable, but were happy. The pleasures are immediate and easy to the flesh so they become habitual, yet deeper it's a deep wound that needs healing. Good word (works) guys.  :thumbsup:

Yes Seth totally true,  its pleasurable for that period of time, then after wards, the words 'degraded', ashamed, 'used', weak, etc springs to mind...hardly awe-inspiring stuff that brings lasting pleasure.

yeppers  agree  !!!!  the hungry  dark   hole of the soul can never be satisfied with the  temporary  pleasres of our  dying flesh /lusts

  Ehp 2 comes to mind again  the Power of God though Jesus Christ is to fulfill  us with His Life /gifts   to destroy  the power of death/sin  within us all   to believe is to obey  truth  and the obey is to Believe HIM !  HE IS THE TRUTH ! :icon_flower:
fresh  new and clean whole / complete  in His Body of believers


  Jhn 11:26 And whosoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Believe thou this?   

  believe   Strong's G4100 - pisteuō πιστεύω
Transliteration
pisteuō
Pronunciation

pē-styü'-ō (Key)

Part of Speech
verb


from G4102


Outline of Biblical Usage

1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in

a) of the thing believed

1) to credit, have confidence
b) in a moral or religious reference

1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul

2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith

3) mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith

2) to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity

a) to be intrusted with a thing

OBEYStrong's G3982 - peithō πείθω
Transliteration
peithō
Pronunciation

pā'-thō (Key)

Part of Speech
verb

Root Word (Etymology)

a primary verb



Outline of Biblical Usage 1) persuade

a) to persuade, i.e. to induce one by words to believe

b) to make friends of, to win one's favour, gain one's good will, or to seek to win one, strive to please onec) to tranquillise

d) to persuade unto i.e. move or induce one to persuasion to do something

2) be persuaded

a) to be persuaded, to suffer one's self to be persuaded; to be induced to believe: to have faith: in a thing

1) to believe

2) to be persuaded of a thing concerning a person

b) to listen to, obey, yield to, comply with

3) to trust, have confidence, be confident

AWESOME  and simple plan  :HeartThrob: :girlheart:  rose

 :cloud9: Marc, take your God-given authority over your wife/soul and command "her" to be silent in His temple/church! Do it every day, as many times a day as it takes for "her" to be silent.

Pr 21:19 - It is better to dwell in the wilderness, than with a contentious and an angry woman.

Our "woman/soul" is ALWAYS angry and contentious, because "she" resists the will of the Spirit for our lives. We're told to CONTEND for the faith, and it is against none other than our own angry soul or the angry souls of others. Once we learn how to shut "her" up, the road gets easier. Blessings...

Quote from: Cardinal on September 26, 2009, 08:43:48 PM
:cloud9: Marc, take your God-given authority over your wife/soul and command "her" to be silent in His temple/church! Do it every day, as many times a day as it takes for "her" to be silent.

Pr 21:19 - It is better to dwell in the wilderness, than with a contentious and an angry woman.

Our "woman/soul" is ALWAYS angry and contentious, because "she" resists the will of the Spirit for our lives. We're told to CONTEND for the faith, and it is against none other that our own angry soul or the angry souls of others. Once we learn how to shut "her" up, the road gets easier. Blessings...

'Shes' being a right little nag lately!  Forever reminding me of how imperfect i am and saying "Come on! Come back, you know you want too!"

Dont worry Card i wont go back x

Not many are prepared to step down, taking responsibility for their fallacies and admit to their mistakes; clinging to their position of exalting themselves.

"And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more, in real knowledge and all discernment,..." (Philippians 1:9)

willieH: Hi EW...  :cloud9:

Another post you WON'T (and probably CAN'T) answer:

Quote from: eaglesway on September 26, 2009, 07:57:35 AM
   I agree with much of your post Willie. If I wanted to make all my posts as long as all your replies, I could explain every possible tense and relationship between time and eternity as I see it.

:Yeahright:  Instead of addressing what is spoken to you... you make excuses by erecting strawman avoidances such as -- "If I wanted to make all my posts as long as all your replies"...   :blah:  Your own "wind" is seen to be pretty looooooooooong as well...  :laughing7:

Quote from: eaglesway on September 26, 2009, 07:57:35 AMIt is obvious, for instance, that we are already priests of God in Christ. That does not necessarily eliminate the possibility of further functions in the ages to come.

There is no NEED for "ages" to COME... for when TIME is FULFILLED (fullness of times)  wherein are "ages to come"?  You yourself, have noted in your recent posts, the "FULNESS of TIMES" [Eph 1:10]... which alludes to something which is COMPLETE... the "LAST DAY" notes an END to "DAYS" ...as WE know them...  :dontknow:

JESUS is the ALPHA and OMEGA... Omega of WHAT Eaglesway?  What shall have an END?  Is it not that which has BEGINNING?  :laughing7:

And HOW do you percieve Him Eaglesway?  Does He have an END?  Did He have a BEGINNING?  Or is He WITHOUT either, and in FACT the marking points (beginning & end) of that which IS TEMPORAL which is EVERYTHING within -- TIME?

You spoke in an earlier post that some can LEAVE "BABYLON", but readily drag portions of it along with them...  :omg: This is exactly what YOU are doing, Eaglesway... 

Thinking that "more TIME" is needed (ages) even though it's destiny is to be -- FULFILLED... :rolleye:

Quote from: eaglesway on September 26, 2009, 07:57:35 AMObviously not all men have entered the day. They are children of the night. Therefore it is necessary to use the terminology of time and space at times, and while some of your disagreements with my posts are substantial, some of them are just splitting hairs.

ALL shall bow at the knee and confess with the tongue by the CONCLUSION of the LAST DAY... then there shall be NO "children of the night"... for DAYS and NIGHTS shall no longer BE...

ALL the [COMPLETED] GENERATIONS of the Heavens and the Earth, are found within the creative "DAY" of YHVH -- Gen 2:4

Quote from: eaglesway on September 26, 2009, 07:57:35 AMFor example, we have been entrusted with the ministry of reconciliation as priests of God unto men in Christ- of course, it is obvious, only God is capable of performing the actual reconciliation, through the shed blood of Christ- this kind of objection on your part is just splitting hairs.

:Yeahright:  More excuses... RECONCILIATION is ACCOMPLISHED...

(1) as JESUS noted at the cross with His last words -- "it is FINISHED" -- John 19:30 --

(2) and Paul noted to the Colossians -- Col 1:20 -- "and having made PEACE through the BLOOD of the CROSS" = DONE DEAL! 

(3)  And to the Corinthians -- 2 Cor 5:19 -- "who HATH RECONCILED us to HIMSELF" = DONE DEAL!

You just hold a FINITE and LINEAR viewpoint dude... not my problem... It is not on my agenda to convince YOU of anything... but to help others find FOCUS upon the SPIRITUAL, you are welcome to remain as close to the skin as you wish...

Quote from: eaglesway on September 26, 2009, 07:57:35 AM2Co 5:18-20  Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,  (19)  that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God.

We participate in this as priests and as sons having received the inheritance, in His name. Even Jesus said..... "I can of mine own self do nothing". "As we see the day approaching", there may be differences in our understanding-but the finished work of which you so eloquently speak is being worked out in time and space- it may be finished in the mind of God, and in the mind of those who walk in the day, but as Paul said

2Th 3:2  And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.

Rom 8:25  But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

Perhaps you would correct Paul and say, "Hey Paul, we already have it!"

I don't presume to correct anyone... Only GOD can correct.  I have amply noted that as FINITES, we must step through the moments of time, so please dont attempt to pervert what I say...  If you find error in my speech, then QUOTE IT and see if God shall give you the words of correction.  Otherwise, don't pose me in IMAGINARY scenarios, saying things I have not said.

FAITH, HOPE and PATIENCE are part of the process, and I have NOT denied this.  However... the ETERNAL is already -- IN PLACE and COMPLETE -- even though, as members of TIME, we temporarily, ...are NOT...

As:

The artist gazes upon the HORIZON, and the Painting (which is to come in a process) is seen in the EYE and MIND of the PAINTER as complete, even though he must step through the process of putting on CANVAS what is ALREADY COMPLETE in the EYE and MIND...  :dontknow:

Quote from: eaglesway on September 26, 2009, 07:57:35 AMWe do not yet see all subject to Him, but we know "It is finished", but they do not know. So there are administration in effect now and administrations yet to come "as the day approaches".

AGAIN you gravitate to the FLESH... If you observe in the SPIRIT, you embrace the FINISHED product... and IN that, find the power to step through the moments to GET there...

Quote from: eaglesway on September 26, 2009, 07:57:35 AM2Pe 3:8-10  And this one thing let not be unobserved by you, beloved, that one day with the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day; (9)  the Lord is not slow in regard to the promise, as certain count slowness, but is long-suffering to us, not counselling any to be lost but all to pass on to reformation,  (10)  and it will come--the day of the Lord--as a thief in the night, in which the heavens with a rushing noise will pass away, and the elements with burning heat be dissolved, and earth and the works in it shall be burnt up.

Your observance of these words is a vision of the end... PETER spoke to the JEWS who met the DESTRUCTION of JERUSALEM in 70 A.D. -- which is an alternate vision, held by many as studied or more than either of us.  I personally believe it to be a past revelation as do they...

The message of the irrelevance of TIME to God, is duly noted... and other clues are availed in this passage that serve to uncover symbolism elsewhere in the Scriptures...

Here's another question or 2... (that you will likely ignore), ...do you believe JESUS shall make a PHYSICAL appearance and PHYSICALLY DESTROY the earth, Eaglesway?

For what purpose shall He DESTROY the earth?  What did the earth -- DO -- to merit DESTRUCTION Eaglesway?

When He "came" unto you... were YOU PHYSICALLY DESTROYED Eaglesway?

The GOSPEL is NOT composed of FEAR, such as you and your Babylonian baggage sorrowfully propose... Preaching God shall be EXTENDING sorrow instead of ENDING it...  :thumbdown:

It is LOVE come from Heaven to SAVE... not to THREATEN or INTIMIDATE

It is PEACE come from Heaven to CALM the calamity of SORROW not to PERPETUATE or sustain it...

It is GRACE which has removed PENALTY which YOU and your "baggage" wish to further IMPOSE...

It is EXCLUSIVELY GOOD NEWS that such as  YOURSELF would pervert, diffuse and confuse,  ...which RE-CREATES of the OLD, something NEW... As in DESTROYING an ENEMY by making (creating) him a FRIEND... NOT by ELIMINATING (destroying) him...

It is SPIRITUAL not PHYSICAL...

It is based on ETERNITY not TIME...

It is based in LOVE which CASTS OUT FEAR... 

Your vision is full of MIRAGES that you in your obsession with PHYSICAL, must have more "time" even though the Scripture speaks of FULLNESS of TIME, ...You, in your "version" of the "GOSPEL", ...shout of "awful destruction" and TORMENT to come... which is, sorry to say brother E, ...OTHER than GOOD NEWS... :rolleye:

If I am shouting to the world of NUCLEAR WAR, does that sound like GOOD NEWS to you?  And in presenting GOD who claims He is LOVE... your "gospel" is that HE is bringing FIRE and DESTRUCTION to those who don't "hear"... even though it is HE which gives EARS to "HEAR" -- This sounds like a MENTAL CASE, not GOD... who claims Himself to be LOVE...

Let's see... GOD has the EARS with which to HEAR His message, and hands them out to whom He chooses,  :LoveH1:

Then BRINGS the "FIRE & brimstone" down upon those who didn't GET EARS from Him...  :talkangry: :spank:

hmmmm --  :JCThink: -- this sounds like MENTAL instability to me...  :wacko2: :tease: :prankster: ...not GOD!  :giveheart:

Quote from: eaglesway on September 26, 2009, 07:57:35 AMThe language of the mystery of time and eternity changes from time to time in the scriptures depending on the purpose and perspective of the Holy Spirit in the passages and their subject matter. We could pick that apart in one another for ages to no profit.

What kind of HOO-Ha is this?  :blahgreen:

Instead noting these VAGUE, impertinent and/or undiscussed peripherals... why not take a moment, and answer me once in a while Eaglesway? 

You continually FAIL to address questions asked of you... which are a distinguishing hallmark of one which has NO ANSWERS, yet speaks his garbled IMAGINATIONS (above) regardless, while remaining purposely OBLIVIOUS of and to  those UNANSWERED QUESTIONS... :rolleye:

The boys have started getting tough eek!

Gal 4:2  But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.

Gal 4:9  But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Gal 4:10  Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.

Gal 4:22  For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

Gal 4:23  But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

Gal 4:24  Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which engendereth to bondage, which is Hagar.

Gal 4:25  For this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Gal 4:26  But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Eph 1:10  That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Gal 4:25  For this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Eph 1:14  Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

This is what I expect from some people even christians, when I preach them good news on other place during the last months, they all saying the exact SAME thing and mocking me:

"Oh yeah, since God alreadly save us, what the point saving lost soul we work so hard?"

"No hell? You are the children of satan, bottom line."

"Paul warn people about differant gospel should be condemned and he serious about it, you are condemned alreadly, Paul rebuked you!"

"Okay, so can keep sinning, it doesn't matter anymore, right? How stupid can you be? Be gone you filthly, Jesus doesn't know you! Depart with the demon at hell since you served them!"


I already answer them, this gospel give me peace and love and understanding and I don't sin very often, All I do is lies, lazy and sexual fantasy things, that's the only sin I do and I am not perfect

then they blast me again:

"Good, if you believe in one God, even the deils believe and SHUDDER! go away, you only want to hear the most comfortable things of man's gospel, not Jesus's gospel, be gone!"

I was trying to teach people exactly what you guys do but I was booted from the internet chat room, mocking me to confuse the new believer and push me away to lure their's believer away from me and the new believer are convinced with the christians than I am

That's because they won't let me talk! Funny how they call me children of satan when they are doing exact thing!

Quote from: Seth on September 26, 2009, 10:50:59 AM
This would be true only if you isolate 1 John 4:7-8 from the rest.

1 John 2:22
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

1 John 2:22
Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son.

Galatians 3:22
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

1 John 3
23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

I guess we could say that people who denies Jesus is the Christ, don't deny it, and those don't believe do believe and those who don't have faith do have faith, and that black is white, and a dog is a cat, and on is off, and an apple is a lemon, and so forth. I think we can all agree that we can make the Bible say whatever we want it to say. I've seen it time and again. This message will not make you a friend with the world. The cross is an offense. Nevertheless...

But then how do you reconcile this with the plain-as-day statement that everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God?  The only way I can see to do so is to claim that anyone who is not a Christian is incapable of loving.  I have read all of the verses you quote.  Can I explain them authoritatively?  No; but the interpretation that you propose (as many others have) is as much in conflict with my conscience as the doctrine of eternal torment.

I have asked in the past, and have received no answer, what it is that those are being punished for who read the Bible, who agree that the message given by Jesus is one that ought to be followed, and whose only offense is having a background that makes them unable to believe that Jesus is the son of God.  I happen to be friends with an atheist who is married, who has two kids, and who loves his kids and his wife with all his heart just as much as any Christian would.  He bears no ill will towards anyone, and is one of the most pleasant people I have ever had the privilege of interacting with.  If there is such a punishment awaiting him, then quite frankly I hope I receive it as well, because I surely need it more than he.

Gab,

I think the focus is to much on believing in God. Sure the Bible commands it. No denying that.
But we can't either deny all other things in the Bible.
Your atheist friend seems to pratice the "love your neighbor" commandment. Something not all Christians do.
IMO we are judged on a package deal. Not just one point. Every package will have flaws that will be fixed.
And for me the Christian package by defenition doesn't contain less flaws than the atheist package.
Unless of course we are speaking about the none existing perfect Christian.

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 27, 2009, 10:38:06 AM
Gab,

I think the focus is to much on believing in God. Sure the Bible commands it. No denying that.
But we can't either deny all other things in the Bible.
Your atheist friend seems to pratice the "love your neighbor" commandment. Something not all Christians do.
IMO we are judged on a package deal. Not just one point. Every package will have flaws that will be fixed.
And for me the Christian package by defenition doesn't contain less flaws than the atheist package.
Unless of course we are speaking about the none existing perfect Christian.

I suppose, though, that the real core question that I have is what comes through that belief that did not exist previously - that is, what in a believer is more right with God than before that belief took root.  There are both those adhering to eternal torment and universal reconciliation alike who agree that it has some effect, but to be perfectly honest I have never quite understood just what that effect is.  We are still capable of sinning, and we do still sin, both before and after we come upon a belief that Jesus is the son of God.  Humans are capable of loving both with and without such a belief.  I have heard it said that the difference is that one who believes is one who does not want to sin, even if he or she still does - but to be honest I have seen many who do not believe who do not seem to have a particularly strong desire to sin.  And I have seen those who claim to believe who seem entirely unconcerned with sinning as long as it's for Jesus (for example, a nasty fundamentalist I met online who constantly bore false witness against what my real beliefs were during a debate).

If the two most important commandments are to love God and to love our neighbor, and if, as is alluded to in Matthew 25:31-46 and 1 John 4:7-12, we love God through the spreading of love to all mankind, then I just really, really want to know where the factual belief that Jesus is the son of God fits into the puzzle, because try as I might (and as others have) I have never been able to find that piece.

Quote from: Gab on September 27, 2009, 10:52:00 AM
I have heard it said that the difference is that one who believes is one who does not want to sin, even if he or she still does - but to be honest I have seen many who do not believe who do not seem to have a particularly strong desire to sin.

Romans 2:14-15 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

I think if we replace Gentiles with non-Christian you have the answer to your question...

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 27, 2009, 11:11:43 AM
Romans 2:14-15 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

I think if we replace Gentiles with non-Christian you have the answer to your question...

Well, that's kind of along the lines of what I was thinking, but that actually doesn't really answer the question - I'm still not sure what is added to a person through the belief that Jesus is the Christ that is not present prior to that belief.  I'm always told how important it is, but as I said, I've never really quite understood why.  It's always kind of struck me as seeming like an arbitrary hoop one must jump through, which is a view that almost certainly comes from my not understanding just what it changes.  If it was a necessary step towards loving others or towards no longer wishing to sin, I could see that - but it doesn't seem to be.

Quote from: gregoryfl on September 25, 2009, 08:05:58 PM
wilmont,

From what I am reading so far, is it fair to say you hold to the Holy Kabbalah? The reason I ask is because of what you said about Adam being originally a being of light, which would correspond to the idea that the soul of man exists in a journey of 4 bodies, Nephesh, Ruach, Neshamah, and Yechida. Is this what you have come to understand?

Thanks,

Ron

No,
I believe all men have an animal soul (called flesh), and a perfect life breath spirit (as spoken in Gen. 2).
Flesh is a symbol of sin
Blood is a symbol of life spirit

The word "skin"  (as in garmnents of skin) is ohr,  when written with an aleph instead of an ayin it means "light".

Every man has light covered in skin (temple of Gd).

Not;

Kill Gd's creation to be close to Gd.



Jesus believed in self sacrifice and would understand temple sacrifices as;
Sacrifice flesh, to get rid of the sin, and sprinkle my life spirit (Symbol in blood) closer to Gd.

"See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ. "

People (be them Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus etc.) don't depend on, or look to the life spirit.

Only physically dead people no longer neede the law, and even in this it has been changed and corrected, so its not as easy as to say;

"Thats what the bible says."

For instance because a person violates Torah do you really think Gd has a punishment requiring a persons wife to be "pimped out"9Deut. 28:30)?

"Go and learn the meaning of the words, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.'  I did not come to call the righteous but sinners."

The righteous don't need sacrifice.

 
  Good posts Wilmont !
I agree about everyone having the animal soul !  studied this long ago and  you reminded me  when reading your posts
  makes   the book of Hebrews   more clear  for sure  :thumbsup:
  I know the only  thing no one can seem to get past is ,blaspheming the Holy Spirit   not letting His Spirit enter in and  teach /correct and Love us  , even Love has its discipline and correction  or it could not be real love
  everything else is forgivable  as I have read it in the WORD OF GOD .

Rev 3 19'Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.

20'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.


Our desires being born a new creature in Christ are now on spiritual  food , clothing and growth  to maturity in the fulness of Christ  :HeartThrob:  and Love is definatly  the main requirement  to achieve that power of God   to  do / come fourth ,though Jesus Christ 
by whom all things are possible  :icon_flower:

Blessings to you.
Yes, not good to blaspheme the Holy marriage union in this age.

Quote from: wilmont on September 27, 2009, 04:44:40 PM
"Go and learn the meaning of the words, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.'  I did not come to call the righteous but sinners."

The righteous don't need sacrifice.

All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God. They are made righteous through faith, because they receive the Holy Spirit. Then they become a living sacrifice. If nobody needs a sacrifice, then that would mean they are righteous on their own merit, and therefore don't need Christ.

Quote from: Gab on September 27, 2009, 10:26:35 AM

Quote from: Seth on September 26, 2009, 10:50:59 AM
This would be true only if you isolate 1 John 4:7-8 from the rest.

1 John 2:22
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

1 John 2:22
Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son.

Galatians 3:22
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

1 John 3
23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

I guess we could say that people who denies Jesus is the Christ, don't deny it, and those don't believe do believe and those who don't have faith do have faith, and that black is white, and a dog is a cat, and on is off, and an apple is a lemon, and so forth. I think we can all agree that we can make the Bible say whatever we want it to say. I've seen it time and again. This message will not make you a friend with the world. The cross is an offense. Nevertheless...

But then how do you reconcile this with the plain-as-day statement that everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God? 

I don't reconcile that by denying other scriptures, especially one's that declare that without faith it is impossible to please God. The only righteousness God accepts is Jesus Christ's righteousness. Love is righteousness, but some love is OUR OWN, but those who have Christ have HIS love through them....thereby DENYING themselves (and their own way of loving the world) and following Him.

QuoteI have asked in the past, and have received no answer, what it is that those are being punished for who read the Bible, who agree that the message given by Jesus is one that ought to be followed, and whose only offense is having a background that makes them unable to believe that Jesus is the son of God. 

Punished? I never said that. Even God's own Sons are chastised, and even though it seems grievous. If God chastises his own sons, how then would anyone not be chastised by God according to his wisdom? The Bible shows that if he chastises and scourages us, he deals with us as sons. If those who are not led by the Spirit, are not to be brought to a place of chastisement then God would forever be dealing with them as bastards.

QuoteI happen to be friends with an atheist who is married, who has two kids, and who loves his kids and his wife with all his heart just as much as any Christian would.  He bears no ill will towards anyone, and is one of the most pleasant people I have ever had the privilege of interacting with.  If there is such a punishment awaiting him, then quite frankly I hope I receive it as well, because I surely need it more than he.

Well, we are told not to despise the chastening of the Lord. So if you do not despise it, then you do well.

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 27, 2009, 11:11:43 AM

Quote from: Gab on September 27, 2009, 10:52:00 AM
I have heard it said that the difference is that one who believes is one who does not want to sin, even if he or she still does - but to be honest I have seen many who do not believe who do not seem to have a particularly strong desire to sin.

Romans 2:14-15 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

I think if we replace Gentiles with non-Christian you have the answer to your question...

But if you read a little further....

Romans 2
28A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.

How we receive the promise of Abraham (the Spirit)

Acts 5:32
And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Here are his commandments to obey to receive that promise of Abraham:

1 John 3
23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

1 John 5:10
He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

1 John 5:1
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

You cannot delete God's requirement and commandment to believe on Christ, because Christ is the head of the church and whoever is born of God believes in God's Son.

Those who are Gentiles, and have the Spirit, ARE NOT GENTILES at all. That is Paul's point. If by non-Christian you mean non-Believer in the Son, those are still spiritually Gentiles until they become Jews by the Spirit, even if it appears that their own righteousness is sufficient to God. Without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God. I know that is an unpopular belief among UR believers, but it is the teaching Paul brought to the churches.

Quote from: Seth on September 28, 2009, 07:05:08 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 27, 2009, 11:11:43 AM

Quote from: Gab on September 27, 2009, 10:52:00 AM
I have heard it said that the difference is that one who believes is one who does not want to sin, even if he or she still does - but to be honest I have seen many who do not believe who do not seem to have a particularly strong desire to sin.

Romans 2:14-15 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

I think if we replace Gentiles with non-Christian you have the answer to your question...

But if you read a little further....

Romans 2
28A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.

Not sure I understand you but "written on their heart" = "by the Spirit"
For me heart signifies: emotion, passion, feeling, personality, etc.

All IMO...  :winkgrin:

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 28, 2009, 07:11:17 PM

Quote from: Seth on September 28, 2009, 07:05:08 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 27, 2009, 11:11:43 AM

Quote from: Gab on September 27, 2009, 10:52:00 AM
I have heard it said that the difference is that one who believes is one who does not want to sin, even if he or she still does - but to be honest I have seen many who do not believe who do not seem to have a particularly strong desire to sin.

Romans 2:14-15 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

I think if we replace Gentiles with non-Christian you have the answer to your question...

But if you read a little further....

Romans 2
28A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.

Not sure I understand you but "written on their heart" = "by the Spirit"
For me heart signifies: emotion, passion, feeling, personality, etc.

All IMO...  :winkgrin:

The other scriptures I provided show that it is by the Holy Spirit, given to those who obey, by believing on the Son (and therefore not calling God a liar, even if unwittingly) by which a Gentile is a Jew (a Son of God).

You cannot take one scripture and leave out the rest.

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 27, 2009, 10:38:06 AM
Gab,

I think the focus is to much on believing in God. Sure the Bible commands it. No denying that.
But we can't either deny all other things in the Bible.
Your atheist friend seems to pratice the "love your neighbor" commandment. Something not all Christians do.
IMO we are judged on a package deal. Not just one point. Every package will have flaws that will be fixed.
And for me the Christian package by defenition doesn't contain less flaws than the atheist package.
Unless of course we are speaking about the none existing perfect Christian.

Brother, do you see what you are doing here? You say the focus is "too much on believing in God, sure the Bible commands it." God commands it. Therefore, how in the world can a focus be "too much" on doing what God commands?

God commands belief in his son. There is no "but." If he commands it, He commands it. God is clear who is begotten children are:

1) those who have genuine faith and receive the Holy Spirit
2) who therefore act in love through faith

If one point is missing, it's all missing. Those who do not have faith CANNOT please Him, it is IMPOSSIBLE. Those who say they believe and do not act in love are disobedient and worthy of His judgment. Yes, Jesus wants the whole package in his Bride.

Quote from: Seth on September 28, 2009, 07:32:24 PMIf one point is missing, it's all missing.

That's exactly my point Seth. People often forget the 'love your neighbor part'

Quote from: Seth on September 28, 2009, 07:13:59 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 28, 2009, 07:11:17 PM

Quote from: Seth on September 28, 2009, 07:05:08 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 27, 2009, 11:11:43 AM

Quote from: Gab on September 27, 2009, 10:52:00 AM
I have heard it said that the difference is that one who believes is one who does not want to sin, even if he or she still does - but to be honest I have seen many who do not believe who do not seem to have a particularly strong desire to sin.

Romans 2:14-15 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

I think if we replace Gentiles with non-Christian you have the answer to your question...

But if you read a little further....

Romans 2
28A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.

Not sure I understand you but "written on their heart" = "by the Spirit"
For me heart signifies: emotion, passion, feeling, personality, etc.

All IMO...  :winkgrin:

The other scriptures I provided show that it is by the Holy Spirit, given to those who obey, by believing on the Son (and therefore not calling God a liar, even if unwittingly) by which a Gentile is a Jew (a Son of God).

You cannot take one scripture and leave out the rest.

There must be some sort of miscommunication going on here because you just repeat what i wrote.

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 28, 2009, 07:41:08 PM

Quote from: Seth on September 28, 2009, 07:32:24 PMIf one point is missing, it's all missing.

That's exactly my point Seth. People often forget the 'love your neighbor part'

I agree, but I am just saying they should both be taught, not one over the other. Not sure if we agree or disagree on that.

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 28, 2009, 07:43:14 PM
There must be some sort of miscommunication going on here because you just repeat what i wrote.

But what I am saying is that non-believers are not begotten Sons of God, even if they have their own righteousness. I think that is the disagreement. Without belief in Christ, one is not begotten of God. I think that is where our disagreement is, not in the fact that those who believe must love. We both do agree on that.

It seems that what happens is that we see an Athiest doing a good deed, and we think "why bother telling him that he needs to believe in Jesus, he already has love." Doing that, we fall away from the teaching, which has Christ as the head of fellow believers who WILL be persecuted by the world for declaring the whole council of God.

If ETers scoff at URers, it would be better for them to scoff because we are declaring the sum of God's word, not because we omit some of it. I get emails sometimes from ETers who accuse me of taking what I like and leaving the rest. I don't believe that is true, but if it were, I would have no ground to disagree.

Quote from: Seth on September 28, 2009, 07:45:26 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 28, 2009, 07:41:08 PM

Quote from: Seth on September 28, 2009, 07:32:24 PMIf one point is missing, it's all missing.

That's exactly my point Seth. People often forget the 'love your neighbor part'

I agree, but I am just saying they should both be taught, not one over the other. Not sure if we agree or disagree on that.

Both. But there are only 24 hours in a day. That means you can't pray 24 hours a day. Plus help other 24 hours a day.
That idea is not unscriputal.
I'm sure you can find the verses so I won't bother...  :winkgrin:
Jesus saved an animal that fell in a pit/dith on Sabbath. Sabbath was/is for worshipping God. But by saving that animal I think Jesus thaught about balance. Prayer pleases God. But I think helping others also pleases God. That's what I mean by balance.

Quote from: Seth on September 28, 2009, 07:47:34 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 28, 2009, 07:43:14 PM
There must be some sort of miscommunication going on here because you just repeat what i wrote.

But what I am saying is that non-believers are not begotten Sons of God, even if they have their own righteousness.

Agreed!

But IMO only part of the answer.
Let's simplify this by saying there are only 2 commands that matter. Believing and helping others.
If you do both you are a son of God.
But what if you only do 1? Are you still a son of God?
Is believe + unhelpful better as unbelieving + helpful? => remember both things where commanded by God.

So I'm not doing pick and choose as you wrote a few messages above; I'm doubting you can just leave something out and believe it's enough. I think you must do both to be a Son of God. And because of lack of time you need to find a balance.
:2c:

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 28, 2009, 08:12:46 PM

Quote from: Seth on September 28, 2009, 07:47:34 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 28, 2009, 07:43:14 PM
There must be some sort of miscommunication going on here because you just repeat what i wrote.

But what I am saying is that non-believers are not begotten Sons of God, even if they have their own righteousness.

Agreed!

But IMO only part of the answer.
Let's simplify this by saying there are only 2 commands that matter. Believing and helping others.
If you do both you are a son of God.
But what if you only do 1? Are you still a son of God?
Is believe + unhelpful better as unbelieving + helpful? => remember both things where commanded by God.

So I'm not doing pick and choose as you wrote a few messages above; I'm doubting you can just leave something out and believe it's enough. I think you must do both to be a Son of God. And because of lack of time you need to find a balance.
:2c:

I should find a better way of saying that. I didn't mean to implicate that personally to you. I just need to find a better way to communicate that so that it doesn't sound like a personal thing.

To answer your question: "But what if you only do 1? Are you still a son of God?"

My answer: no. That is why Paul said: As many who are LED by the Spirit of God the same are his Sons (paraphrase). If it was only #1 he would have said: As many who believe in Jesus are Sons of God. We agree on that.

So the question, to me is, is someone who does good deeds a begotten Son, even if he/she denies God's Son. The scripture say not. So the alternate question to you is, what if the person fulfills only #2?

The reason I think #1 is important in God's plan, in part, is because of "the trial of our faith." Those who say that belief in Christ is 100% critical, will be scoffed at by the world who would rather have good deeds and deny the Son. Look at the experiences of the earliest church among both Jews as to the flesh, and Greeks. The little church was surrounded...

Without belief in Christ, one is not begotten of God

Of this there is much controversy and means a myriad of things  even to Christians.
Is this about magic blood of an unbiblical man sacrifice?
Is this about a Roman mythlogical figure, of a once real Jewish Rabbi?
Is this a belief in a "not so Jewish" version of their Messiah?

Remember at this time there were several mikvah / baptismal sects who understood this as their form of animal sacrifice (to be generated or newborn from above).

Interesting read;

Waters of Eden, The Mystery of the Mikvah by Aryeh Kaplan

ISBN # 1-879016-08-7

Quote from: Seth on September 28, 2009, 06:44:35 PM

Quote from: wilmont on September 27, 2009, 04:44:40 PM
"Go and learn the meaning of the words, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.'  I did not come to call the righteous but sinners."

The righteous don't need sacrifice.

All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God. They are made righteous through faith, because they receive the Holy Spirit. Then they become a living sacrifice. If nobody needs a sacrifice, then that would mean they are righteous on their own merit, and therefore don't need Christ.

Seth,
Its not for you or me to determine that the righteous don't have faith (actually the righteous do have faith).  I think I already discussed this with you?
Its always been about YOU ARE THE sacrifice.
Remember when I mentioned that the righteous suffer, and the unrighteous are punished?
It is not for you or me to determine because someone believes good works earns them assurance, that this negates their assurance?

Thats major "square peg in round hole", churchianity stuff (although some timber frames actually used more square pegs in larger timbers to lock them in place).

Sometimes Christians assume that Gd actually DOES require good works to get into heaven, they just  swap out the man Jesus with a more Orthodox Jewish understanding of rewards and punishments..when thats not what Jesus came to teach.
He was trying to teach you that Gd was a Gd of love and forgiveness since the beginning, and that good works were about fellowship until that time we are reunited.

Some handle the Law the same way...they assume you have to keep the law perfectly or you are not getting to heaven, when that was never the purpose of the law to begin with. 

An example if I gave NT commentary stating that Jesus actually transgressed the law such as in John 9:16;

So some of the Pharisees said, "This man is not from God, because he does not keep the sabbath." (But) others said, "How can a sinful man do such signs?" And there was a division among them'

The general response would be that Jesus is Gd so he is exempt, or the Pharisees were lying etc.
There are alot of real bad biases when it comes to theology.

Quote from: wilmont on September 29, 2009, 11:29:37 PM
An example if I gave NT commentary stating that Jesus actually transgressed the law such as in John 9:16;

So some of the Pharisees said, "This man is not from God, because he does not keep the sabbath." (But) others said, "How can a sinful man do such signs?" And there was a division among them'

The general response would be that Jesus is Gd so he is exempt, or the Pharisees were lying etc.
There are alot of real bad biases when it comes to theology.

The pharisees weren't wrong about that. They just didn't know who the law was for.

1 Timothy 1:9
Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers

Quote from: wilmont on September 29, 2009, 10:51:37 PM

Its not for you or me to determine that the righteous don't have faith (actually the righteous do have faith).  I think I already discussed this with you?
Its always been about YOU ARE THE sacrifice.
Remember when I mentioned that the righteous suffer, and the unrighteous are punished?
It is not for you or me to determine because someone believes good works earns them assurance, that this negates their assurance?

Again, you and I have a major difference about what we are to have assurance of. By the way, I never said that the righteous do not have faith. I actually said the reverse: The righteous do have faith.

QuoteSometimes Christians assume that Gd actually DOES require good works to get into heaven

And that last part is why we are talking past eachother. Jesus isn't trying to "get people into heaven" in the Orthodox sense as if Heaven is Disneyland and Jesus is trying to sneak us in the back way. He is setting out to SAVE US FROM SIN. And I have explained to you the part that "good works" play in that apart from "works of the law."

QuoteSome handle the Law the same way...they assume you have to keep the law perfectly or you are not getting to heaven, when that was never the purpose of the law to begin with. 

When did I EVER say anything about "getting into heaven" or NOT "getting into heaven?"

Wilmont, you have no clue as to what I am actually talking about.

Quote from: Seth on September 29, 2009, 11:34:31 PM

Quote from: wilmont on September 29, 2009, 11:29:37 PM
An example if I gave NT commentary stating that Jesus actually transgressed the law such as in John 9:16;

So some of the Pharisees said, "This man is not from God, because he does not keep the sabbath." (But) others said, "How can a sinful man do such signs?" And there was a division among them'

The general response would be that Jesus is Gd so he is exempt, or the Pharisees were lying etc.
There are alot of real bad biases when it comes to theology.

The pharisees weren't wrong about that. They just didn't know who the law was for.

1 Timothy 1:9
Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers

Thats what I am talking about...I can do the "sound bite thing all day".....then Jesus cdertainly should preach that it should be done away with or replaced, which he did not because that would make him an unholy lawless person since the law the law is Holy righteous and good (see your own commentary in Romans 7).

I think you sort of take things at times out of context.

Alot of what Jesus was dealing with was differnt halachtic interpretations of differing sects.
At this time Judaism was very sectarian.
So one group of Pharisees might have understood Jesus as a violator of sabbath / work, because their particular interp. concerning work was differnt from what Jes's sect understood.us;s sect understood (even david used the showbread in violation of law to feed his starving men).

Quote from: Seth on September 29, 2009, 11:39:46 PM

Quote from: wilmont on September 29, 2009, 10:51:37 PM

Its not for you or me to determine that the righteous don't have faith (actually the righteous do have faith).  I think I already discussed this with you?
Its always been about YOU ARE THE sacrifice.
Remember when I mentioned that the righteous suffer, and the unrighteous are punished?
It is not for you or me to determine because someone believes good works earns them assurance, that this negates their assurance?

Again, you and I have a major difference about what we are to have assurance of. By the way, I never said that the righteous do not have faith. I actually said the reverse: The righteous do have faith.

QuoteSometimes Christians assume that Gd actually DOES require good works to get into heaven

And that last part is why we are talking past eachother. Jesus isn't trying to "get people into heaven" in the Orthodox sense as if Heaven is Disneyland and Jesus is trying to sneak us in the back way. He is setting out to SAVE US FROM SIN. And I have explained to you the part that "good works" play in that apart from "works of the law."

QuoteSome handle the Law the same way...they assume you have to keep the law perfectly or you are not getting to heaven, when that was never the purpose of the law to begin with. 

When did I EVER say anything about "getting into heaven" or NOT "getting into heaven?"

Wilmont, you have no clue as to what I am actually talking about.

I suppose is you want to say that...okay.
I just see alot of confusion in some of what you are saying?

Quote from: wilmont on September 30, 2009, 12:04:51 AM

Quote from: Seth on September 29, 2009, 11:39:46 PM

Quote from: wilmont on September 29, 2009, 10:51:37 PM

Its not for you or me to determine that the righteous don't have faith (actually the righteous do have faith).  I think I already discussed this with you?
Its always been about YOU ARE THE sacrifice.
Remember when I mentioned that the righteous suffer, and the unrighteous are punished?
It is not for you or me to determine because someone believes good works earns them assurance, that this negates their assurance?

Again, you and I have a major difference about what we are to have assurance of. By the way, I never said that the righteous do not have faith. I actually said the reverse: The righteous do have faith.

QuoteSometimes Christians assume that Gd actually DOES require good works to get into heaven

And that last part is why we are talking past eachother. Jesus isn't trying to "get people into heaven" in the Orthodox sense as if Heaven is Disneyland and Jesus is trying to sneak us in the back way. He is setting out to SAVE US FROM SIN. And I have explained to you the part that "good works" play in that apart from "works of the law."

QuoteSome handle the Law the same way...they assume you have to keep the law perfectly or you are not getting to heaven, when that was never the purpose of the law to begin with. 

When did I EVER say anything about "getting into heaven" or NOT "getting into heaven?"

Wilmont, you have no clue as to what I am actually talking about.

I suppose is you want to say that...okay.
I just see alot of confusion in some of what you are saying?

YOu see confusion because you have a different premise than mine about what Jesus Christ is here to do. NOTHING in the Bible says that Jesus came to save us from not "getting into heaven." The Bible does LITERALLY say that Jesus is named Jesus because he will save his people from their sin.

Nobody is to be saved IN sin, but saved FROM sin.

Quote from: wilmont on September 29, 2009, 11:57:19 PM

Thats what I am talking about...I can do the "sound bite thing all day".....then Jesus cdertainly should preach that it should be done away with or replaced, which he did not because that would make him an unholy lawless person since the law the law is Holy righteous and good (see your own commentary in Romans 7).

I think you sort of take things at times out of context.

No I have been very consistent with what I am saying.

1) The Law is good and holy
2) The Law is for the ungodly not for the righteous
3) The Law is a schoolteacher to lead us to Christ
4) Christ's Spirit saves us from sin so that we become righteous
5) We are therefore delivered from the law because the law is not for a righteous man but for the ungodly. We have been therefore delivered from that when the Spirit delivers us from our former old self.

That is what I have said all along and it is entirely scriptural and consistent with what I believe and have been stating all along.

Quote from: Seth on September 28, 2009, 06:44:35 PM

Quote from: wilmont on September 27, 2009, 04:44:40 PM
"Go and learn the meaning of the words, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.'  I did not come to call the righteous but sinners."

The righteous don't need sacrifice.

All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God. They are made righteous through faith, because they receive the Holy Spirit. Then they become a living sacrifice. If nobody needs a sacrifice, then that would mean they are righteous on their own merit, and therefore don't need Christ.

This is what you said;

If nobody needs a sacrifice, then that would mean they are righteous on their own merit, and therefore don't need Christ.

There were many Jews at this time who did not hold to the corruption of the temple system or sacrifice are you trying to say they that they didn't / have faith?

A man is not a Biblical sacrifice anyway...so I guess I am confused  Are you saying that if people don't believe in a pagan  type Roman sacrifice they don't have faith?

Quote from: wilmont on September 30, 2009, 12:11:48 AM
A man is not a Biblical sacrifice anyway...so I guess I am confused  Are you saying that if people don't believe in a pagan  type Roman sacrifice they don't have faith?

No what I am saying starts with the fact that ALL men have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. The reason Christ gave his life willingly is so that "by his life" we would be saved from sin. That is what the sacrifice was for, not so Christ could stay dead (obviously) but so that BY his resurrected life, we could be delivered from the bondage of sin. That is why Christ sacrificed himself for everyone. The way to inherit Christ's Spirit is by faith in Him.

Quote from: Seth on September 30, 2009, 12:10:30 AM

Quote from: wilmont on September 29, 2009, 11:57:19 PM

Thats what I am talking about...I can do the "sound bite thing all day".....then Jesus cdertainly should preach that it should be done away with or replaced, which he did not because that would make him an unholy lawless person since the law the law is Holy righteous and good (see your own commentary in Romans 7).

I think you sort of take things at times out of context.

No I have been very consistent with what I am saying.

1) The Law is good and holy
2) The Law is for the ungodly not for the righteous
3) The Law is a schoolteacher to lead us to Christ
4) Christ's Spirit saves us from sin so that we become righteous
5) We are therefore delivered from the law because the law is not for a righteous man but for the ungodly. We have been therefore delivered from that when the Spirit delivers us from our former old self.

That is what I have said all along and it is entirely scriptural and consistent with what I believe and have been stating all along.

Well then some Christians must not be very righteous and not spirit filled since they need building codes to put a railing on a deck.

The law does not lead you to a human sacrifice...thats for sure.  So unless Jesus is a non existant symbol of some sorts for a Hellenist philosophy, the law is not always made for the ungodly (some is and some isn't)

Quote from: wilmont on September 30, 2009, 12:17:15 AM


Well then some Christians must not be very righteous and not spirit filled since they need building codes to put a railing on a deck.

Who says?

QuoteThe law does not lead you to a human sacrifice...thats for sure.  So unless Jesus is a non existant symbol of some sorts for a Hellenist philosophy, the law is not always made for the ungodly (some is and some isn't)

The law leads to the deliverer who is a Spirit. Once the man delivered, the law has done its job, and the man is then under the teaching of grace.

Seth think about it?

If the law is not made for the righteous, but for the ungodly,  but it is Holy and Good, that means the ungodly do what is holy and good, and your understnading of righteous do not.

Doesn't it say the law was intitially for life?

10I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.

Quote from: wilmont on September 30, 2009, 12:23:55 AM
Seth think about it?

If the law is not made for the righteous, but for the ungodly,  but it is Holy and Good, that means the ungodly do what is holy and good, and your understnading of righteous do not.

The Law is Holy and Good, but it also does not have the power to deliver anyone from sin. So when faith comes, the Spirit delivers one from the body of death (which is a power the law did not have).

So, what Paul means when he says that the Law is for the ungodly, he is saying that it is there to SHOW the ungodly that they are such. That is what it means "the law is FOR the ungodly" according to IT'S purpose.

While the law reveals sin to the ungodly, the Spirit then delivers the ungodly from sin making them godly through grace.

The reason why the Church has a Magisterium is because you just can't take a bunch of writings from the NT and leave out centuries of foundational understandings.

Bob is a Christian, led by the spirit.....he drives as the spirit directs him and generally drives at about 45 mph...... he did not see that the speed limit sign was reduced from 45 to 25 mph, he ends up getting in an accident, and a ticket for violating the law.
He tried to explain to the judge that he is led by the spirit and the spirit did not tell him to reduce his speed, but that was not really a mitigating factor because the law is the law.

Bob wished the law was not this way.

Quote from: Zeek on September 30, 2009, 12:25:49 AM
Doesn't it say the law was intitially for life?

The problem is sin. That is why the law is toward life, but in my flesh is no good thing. That is how the Law has less strength than the Spirit, for what it could not do, Jesus did by condemning sin in the flesh so that the righteousness of the law (love) may be fulfilled in those who walk after the Spirit, not according to the letter.

Quote from: wilmont on September 30, 2009, 12:32:07 AM
The reason why the Church has a Magisterium is because you just can't take a bunch of writings from the NT and leave out centuries of foundational understandings.

Bob is a Christian, led by the spirit.....he drives as the spirit directs him and generally drives at about 45 mph...... he did not see that the speed limit sign was reduced from 45 to 25 mph, he ends up getting in an accident, and a ticket for violating the law.
He tried to explain to the judge that he is led by the spirit and the spirit did not tell him to reduce his speed, but that was not really a mitigating factor because the law is the law.

Bob wished the law was not this way.

Civil law was not intended to reveal sin as sin. Our civil laws are for the purpose of keeping everything safe and under control. The Law of Moses is not to make anyone good, that is why comparisons like that are faulty.

Quote from: Seth on September 30, 2009, 12:29:06 AM

Quote from: wilmont on September 30, 2009, 12:23:55 AM
Seth think about it?

If the law is not made for the righteous, but for the ungodly,  but it is Holy and Good, that means the ungodly do what is holy and good, and your understnading of righteous do not.

The Law is Holy and Good, but it also does not have the power to deliver anyone from sin. So when faith comes, the Spirit delivers one from the body of death (which is a power the law did not have).

So, what Paul means when he says that the Law is for the ungodly, he is saying that it is there to SHOW the ungodly that they are such. That is what it means "the law is FOR the ungodly" according to IT'S purpose.

While the law reveals sin to the ungodly, the Spirit then delivers the ungodly from sin making them godly through grace.

Jane is thinking about committing adultery, but she remembered the law concerning this sin.  Jane decided because of the law that she would not sin (prevention).
Jane also went to Hebrew class one day and found out she sinned unintentionally last week (revealed).  Rabbi told her that if it would make her feel better (assurance) then she could give a few dollars to the food pantry.

Thius is different from;

Roger is hanging out with the Cretins at the human sacrifice orgy pit, when they decide to sacrifice a baby so that the gods will forgive them for not giving them all the gold.

Quote from: Seth on September 30, 2009, 12:34:52 AM

Quote from: wilmont on September 30, 2009, 12:32:07 AM
The reason why the Church has a Magisterium is because you just can't take a bunch of writings from the NT and leave out centuries of foundational understandings.

Bob is a Christian, led by the spirit.....he drives as the spirit directs him and generally drives at about 45 mph...... he did not see that the speed limit sign was reduced from 45 to 25 mph, he ends up getting in an accident, and a ticket for violating the law.
He tried to explain to the judge that he is led by the spirit and the spirit did not tell him to reduce his speed, but that was not really a mitigating factor because the law is the law.

Bob wished the law was not this way.

Civil law was not intended to reveal sin as sin. Our civil laws are for the purpose of keeping everything safe and under control. The Law of Moses is not to make anyone good, that is why comparisons like that are faulty.

If you are going to make comparisons for today based on writings from 2,000 years ago, then I can make comparisons of law today based upon the same.
Make it criminal speeding then (criminal law)?
Not putting a railing up on your roof deck in law...is it not?  But yet comes under todays civil ordinances?

Quote from: wilmont on September 30, 2009, 12:41:30 AM

Quote from: Seth on September 30, 2009, 12:29:06 AM

Quote from: wilmont on September 30, 2009, 12:23:55 AM
Seth think about it?

If the law is not made for the righteous, but for the ungodly,  but it is Holy and Good, that means the ungodly do what is holy and good, and your understnading of righteous do not.

The Law is Holy and Good, but it also does not have the power to deliver anyone from sin. So when faith comes, the Spirit delivers one from the body of death (which is a power the law did not have).

So, what Paul means when he says that the Law is for the ungodly, he is saying that it is there to SHOW the ungodly that they are such. That is what it means "the law is FOR the ungodly" according to IT'S purpose.

While the law reveals sin to the ungodly, the Spirit then delivers the ungodly from sin making them godly through grace.

Jane is thinking about committing adultery, but she remembered the law concerning this sin.  Jane decided because of the law that she would not sin (prevention).
Jane also went to Hebrew class one day and found out she sinned unintentionally last week (revealed).  Rabbi told her that if it would make her feel better (assurance) then she could give a few dollars to the food pantry.

Neither scenario leads to justification. God does not accept our own righteousness which is by the law.

QuoteRoger is hanging out with the Cretins at the human sacrifice orgy pit, when they decide to sacrifice a baby so that the gods will forgive them for not giving them all the gold.

This scenario does not lead to justification either.

Man is only saved by faith and sanctification of the Spirit (2 Thessalonians 2:13). The reason this is so has to do with what Jesus was ACTUALLY dealing with in his day:

Matthew 23:27
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

Because someone sees a law not to commit adultery and therefore does not do it, does not address the inner issue that Jesus had with Pharisees who did the same thing.

Quote from: wilmont on September 30, 2009, 12:44:49 AM

If you are going to make comparisons for today based on writings from 2,000 years ago, then I can make comparisons of law today based upon the same.

YOu can do whatever you like. I just don't think the comparison follows.

And yes the law of Moses does make people good or conform, to the laws standard.
The law does not 'ULTIMATELY PERFECT'  a person (you have to physically die to be like that).

Quote from: wilmont on September 30, 2009, 12:48:19 AM
And yes the law of Moses does make people good or conform, to the laws standard.
The law does not 'ULTIMATELY PERFECT'  a person (you have to physically die to be like that).

No only the Spirit by faith can make anyone good, because none but God are good and he gives that Goodness as a gift of the Spirit. Nobody's own righteousness by the law is acceptable to God.

Quote from: Seth on September 30, 2009, 12:46:49 AM

Quote from: wilmont on September 30, 2009, 12:41:30 AM

Quote from: Seth on September 30, 2009, 12:29:06 AM

Quote from: wilmont on September 30, 2009, 12:23:55 AM
Seth think about it?

If the law is not made for the righteous, but for the ungodly,  but it is Holy and Good, that means the ungodly do what is holy and good, and your understnading of righteous do not.

The Law is Holy and Good, but it also does not have the power to deliver anyone from sin. So when faith comes, the Spirit delivers one from the body of death (which is a power the law did not have).

So, what Paul means when he says that the Law is for the ungodly, he is saying that it is there to SHOW the ungodly that they are such. That is what it means "the law is FOR the ungodly" according to IT'S purpose.

While the law reveals sin to the ungodly, the Spirit then delivers the ungodly from sin making them godly through grace.

Jane is thinking about committing adultery, but she remembered the law concerning this sin.  Jane decided because of the law that she would not sin (prevention).
Jane also went to Hebrew class one day and found out she sinned unintentionally last week (revealed).  Rabbi told her that if it would make her feel better (assurance) then she could give a few dollars to the food pantry.

Neither scenario leads to justification. God does not accept our own righteousness which is by the law.

QuoteRoger is hanging out with the Cretins at the human sacrifice orgy pit, when they decide to sacrifice a baby so that the gods will forgive them for not giving them all the gold.

This scenario does not lead to justification either.

Man is only saved by faith and sanctification of the Spirit (2 Thessalonians 2:13). The reason this is so has to do with what Jesus was ACTUALLY dealing with in his day:

Matthew 23:27
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

Because someone sees a law not to commit adultery and therefore does not do it, does not address the inner issue that Jesus had with Pharisees who did the same thing.

But it PREVENTS the person from worse harm to themself or others.
Thats GOOD RIGHTEOUS AND HOLY.

I use your same arguements against Christans who think teaching or believing in an unrighteous doctrine, makes them righteous.

Here is what I am talking about:

"Jane is thinking about committing adultery, but she remembered the law concerning this sin.  Jane decided because of the law that she would not sin (prevention)."

Jane is thinking about committing adultery?

If that is so, then that is what would make her a whited sepulcher. The point of walking according to the Spirit is not just so that you are delivered from DOING sin, but from even WANTING to do it. That is the core difference between grace (the teaching thereof) and the letter.

Quote from: wilmont on September 30, 2009, 12:32:07 AM
Bob is a Christian, led by the spirit.....he drives as the spirit directs him and generally drives at about 45 mph...... he did not see that the speed limit sign was reduced from 45 to 25 mph, he ends up getting in an accident, and a ticket for violating the law.
He tried to explain to the judge that he is led by the spirit and the spirit did not tell him to reduce his speed, but that was not really a mitigating factor because the law is the law.

Bob wished the law was not this way.

:cloud9: Ahem...... :winkgrin:  I just want to interject something for a moment. I just want to say that the real problem here is that Bob didn't know the Judge personally, only the lawyer arguing on his behalf.

The same thing has happened to me (more than once  :mblush:), and I immediately asked the Judge thru the lawyer, for mercy and favor, and the Judge who is over all, moved upon the face of the waters of the policeman, and granted me mercy and favor because the INTENT of my heart was seen, which was not to break the law, which is just and good.

Sorry, couldn't resist......... :laughing7: Carry on.........Blessings....

Sorry,
Supertime.

Not really (on your last in speaking on Grace)?

I don't see how Christians can understand or define righteousness the way of the Rabbinics (original conformity to the law), and then deny that a person is justified by how they define it in their concept of Jesus?

The Jews of Qumran and cross sects (be them Pharisaic, Eseene etc.) believed in being justifed by Gd, His righteousness is my source of justification (my justification is in Him, and His presence in me through me and what I do).

Thats why there was a TEACHER OF RIGHTEOUSNESS...because he had to teach something.

Funny story, Card.  :laughing7:

The main point I am making is not in whether or not the law results in people controlling their behavior. It can. That is not the main point or issue that Jesus had. He knew their very thoughts. The law that says "do not commit adultery", when followed, is just a cover-up for WANTING to commit adultery in the first place. Jesus was clear that his intention was to deal with more than what people DID outwardly, but to heal the condition of slavery to the sin which "dwells within" the flesh. People obeying statues, that has no power to change that.

I am a living testimony to that. I did things that I am not proud of, but even if I refrained once in a while, I still WANTED to do them and that is what kept me in slavery and unable ultimately to stop sinning. When the Lord came into my life, the change was internal. Still not perfect, but not under the law which was unable to change my inner life.

The inner life is something that the law cannot touch, which is why Paul said it was not able to do what Jesus did.

QuoteI don't see how Christians can understand or define righteousness the way of the Rabbinics (original conformity to the law), and then deny that a person is justified by how they define it in their concept of Jesus?

I base my statements on the clear teaching of the New Testament.

If Jane did not want to commit adultery in the first place, she wouldn't need to remember any statute reminding her not to.

Quote from: Seth on September 30, 2009, 12:50:37 AM

Quote from: wilmont on September 30, 2009, 12:48:19 AM
And yes the law of Moses does make people good or conform, to the laws standard.
The law does not 'ULTIMATELY PERFECT'  a person (you have to physically die to be like that).

No only the Spirit by faith can make anyone good, because none but God are good and he gives that Goodness as a gift of the Spirit. Nobody's own righteousness by the law is acceptable to God.

Again it is not for you determine or dictate to Gd who is righteous and by what means.

What does the Holy Word actually say?
Man was created Good.
Men were/are righteous and good.
Gd called Abraham good and a friend, and Elijah righteous?


Why am I persecuted for righteousness sake?
Because you think my righteousness conflicts with the letter of the law. :bgdance:

Quote from: wilmont on September 30, 2009, 01:40:14 AM

Again it is not for you determine or dictate to Gd who is righteous and by what means.

God dictates to me by His Word which I believe.

QuoteWhy am I persecuted for righteousness sake?

You aren't. Do you think having a disagreement means you are being persecuted?

Quote from: Seth on September 30, 2009, 01:35:53 AM

QuoteI don't see how Christians can understand or define righteousness the way of the Rabbinics (original conformity to the law), and then deny that a person is justified by how they define it in their concept of Jesus?

I base my statements on the clear teaching of the New Testament.

Not really.
You fundamentaly (if I may take liberty with that word), use the Jewish definition of justification, to try to validate a gnostic spiritual belief in a man, who had to physically die in order to be ultimaely justified (freed from sin).
In other words, think of justification as being freed from sin.
No man is totaly freed from sin in our present state...whether by a mystical spiritual view, or a letter of the law view.

Quote from: Seth on September 30, 2009, 01:44:20 AM

Quote from: wilmont on September 30, 2009, 01:40:14 AM

Again it is not for you determine or dictate to Gd who is righteous and by what means.

God dictates to me by His Word which I believe.

QuoteWhy am I persecuted for righteousness sake?

You aren't. Do you think having a disagreement means you are being persecuted?

I was being humerous.....persecuted for righteousness sake means righteouness in conflict with "letter of law" (mostly halacha interpretation in NT).

Quote from: wilmont on September 30, 2009, 01:46:15 AM
In other words, think of justification as being freed from sin.
No man is totaly freed from sin in our present state...whether by a mystical spiritual view, or a letter of the law view.

Justification is indeed being freed from sin.

Man is not freed from sin by the letter of the law. That much is evident, because sin dwells within. For that cause a man must be circumcised in the heart by the Spirit. This is the truth.

 :cloud9: I agree Seth, but it's more than just a cover-up, it's the catalyst. I knew not what sin was, until the law came, and sin which was in my inner parts, revived and taking occasion by the law, slew me. Paraphrased for my own clarity, LOL.........

He brought it to stir up leviathan and make us see what was in our hearts, just like He told the Israelites that He had taken them out into the wilderness to show them what was in their's, and just like He took Eve out of Adam so he could see his own stony (calcium's a mineral) heart. Blessings.....

Quote from: wilmont on September 30, 2009, 01:48:26 AM
I was being humerous.....persecuted for righteousness sake means righteouness in conflict with "letter of law" (mostly halacha interpretation in NT).

No righteousness is in conflict with the letter of the law. Just that the letter of law does not make anyone righteous.

Example previously provided: Had Jane not wanted to commit adultery in the first place, she would not have needed to remember the letter. That is what Paul means by saying that Gentiles can by nature do the things which are in the law (like not committing adultery) without having the law. Your own example underscores the whole point.

Think about it?

A person is weak at a moment in time...they are thinking about adultery...they then remember the LAW.  They don't want the condemnation (as Jesus so taught), so they choose not to.

Gd says to them;

"You piece of feces......you thought about it!  There is nothing good in you at all....if it wasnt for the law...you would have done it!...why did I even create you to begin with"

Gd really says:

"Thank you for being obedient, because I could not stand to see you ruin your life that I gave you...try to think of better thoughts"

Quote from: Cardinal on September 30, 2009, 01:50:21 AM
:cloud9: I agree Seth, but it's more than just a cover-up, it's the catalyst. I knew not what sin was, until the law came, and sin which was in my inner parts, revived and taking occasion by the law, slew me. Paraphrased for my own clarity, LOL.........

He brought it to stir up leviathan and make us see what was in our hearts, just like He told the Israelites that He had taken them out into the wilderness to show them what was in their's, and just like He took Eve out of Adam so he could see his own stony (calcium's a mineral) heart. Blessings.....

Beautiful, Card.  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: Seth on September 30, 2009, 01:49:55 AM

Quote from: wilmont on September 30, 2009, 01:46:15 AM
In other words, think of justification as being freed from sin.
No man is totaly freed from sin in our present state...whether by a mystical spiritual view, or a letter of the law view.

Justification is indeed being freed from sin.

Man is not freed from sin by the letter of the law. That much is evident, because sin dwells within. For that cause a man must be circumcised in the heart by the Spirit. This is the truth.

Some people are freed from sin the best they can in this present age,  by doing the letter of the law.
No sin does not dwell within a man...as a man THINKS so he does (cause of the hand that sins).  Sin is an action.
There is alot of real good in people (righteousness too).

Quote from: wilmont on September 30, 2009, 01:53:18 AM
"You piece of feces......you thought about it!  There is nothing good in you at all....if it wasnt for the law...you would have done it!...why did I even create you to begin with"

I never said God would act that way. What would happen in a time of weakness like that is GRACE, which teaches us to abandon the lusts of the flesh. Therefore if a Gentile never even heard of the Law of Moses yet received Christ (Romans 9:30) would not need to live by the letter should those issues come up. They would be walking by the Spirit instead.

Think like this, raise your children this way;

You are a good creation that sins once in awhile

not

You are a bad creation that does good once in awhile

Quote from: wilmont on September 30, 2009, 01:55:45 AM
Some people are freed from sin the best they can in this present age,  by doing the letter of the law.

Untrue.

Quote from: wilmont on September 30, 2009, 01:57:25 AM
Think like this, raise your children this way;

You are a good creation that sins once in awhile

not

You are a bad creation that does good once in awhile

I will teach the truth: In their flesh is no good thing, but Christ is their deliverance so that it is Him that does good through them.

Quote from: Seth on September 30, 2009, 01:56:09 AM

Quote from: wilmont on September 30, 2009, 01:53:18 AM
"You piece of feces......you thought about it!  There is nothing good in you at all....if it wasnt for the law...you would have done it!...why did I even create you to begin with"

I never said God would act that way. What would happen in a time of weakness like that is GRACE, which teaches us to abandon the lusts of the flesh. Therefore if a Gentile never even heard of the Law of Moses yet received Christ (Romans 9:30) would not need to live by the letter should those issues come up. They would be walking by the Spirit instead.

And I already pointed out the falicious nature of the "walking in the spirit" arguments.

Quote from: Seth on September 30, 2009, 01:58:47 AM

Quote from: wilmont on September 30, 2009, 01:57:25 AM
Think like this, raise your children this way;

You are a good creation that sins once in awhile

not

You are a bad creation that does good once in awhile

I will teach the truth: In their flesh is no good thing, but Christ is their deliverance so that it is Him that does good through them.

What does Holy Word actually say?
He saw what He created and it was good.
If you want your children not to carry your guilt, to the fourth generation, then teach them they are a good creation that can do good things IN THEIR FLESH (remember ohr is both skin and light).

Yes I know you believe that "walking by the Spirit" is fallacious, you referred to it as some sort of belief in "magic." Very well, you can believe what you wish.

Seth,
In Holy Word could you show how Israel atoned for transgression?
And then find in the same Holy Word where man sacrifice is authorized for this purpose?

Then why would you teach an unbiblical atonement?

I am just curious?
You would not lie to your children would you?

Quote from: wilmont on September 30, 2009, 02:02:07 AM

Quote from: Seth on September 30, 2009, 01:58:47 AM

Quote from: wilmont on September 30, 2009, 01:57:25 AM
Think like this, raise your children this way;

You are a good creation that sins once in awhile

not

You are a bad creation that does good once in awhile

I will teach the truth: In their flesh is no good thing, but Christ is their deliverance so that it is Him that does good through them.

What does Holy Word actually say?
He saw what He created and it was good.
If you want your children not to carry your guilt, to the fourth generation, then teach them they are a good creation that can do good things IN THEIR FLESH (remember ohr is both skin and light).

Christ says "There are none good but God." That is what I will teach them. Then I will teach them that Christ will conform them to that image. I am able to reconcile that with statements about creation since the Spirit breathed: The sum of thy word is truth.

Quote from: Seth on September 30, 2009, 01:57:54 AM

Quote from: wilmont on September 30, 2009, 01:55:45 AM
Some people are freed from sin the best they can in this present age,  by doing the letter of the law.

Untrue.

Thats what you think and say.  Not what Gd says.

It is not only logically true but biblically (including the NT).

People that don't sin so much don't have as much conciousness of guilt.
With all respect that is also a Christian principle.

Quote from: Seth on September 30, 2009, 02:08:04 AM

Quote from: wilmont on September 30, 2009, 02:02:07 AM

Quote from: Seth on September 30, 2009, 01:58:47 AM

Quote from: wilmont on September 30, 2009, 01:57:25 AM
Think like this, raise your children this way;

You are a good creation that sins once in awhile

not

You are a bad creation that does good once in awhile

I will teach the truth: In their flesh is no good thing, but Christ is their deliverance so that it is Him that does good through them.

What does Holy Word actually say?
He saw what He created and it was good.
If you want your children not to carry your guilt, to the fourth generation, then teach them they are a good creation that can do good things IN THEIR FLESH (remember ohr is both skin and light).

Christ says "There are none good but God." That is what I will teach them. Then I will teach them that Christ will conform them to that image. I am able to reconcile that with statements about creation since the Spirit breathed: The sum of thy word is truth.

Again, you take that out of context.
None is good as Gd, none is righteous as Gd, does not mean none is good or does good things, or none is righteous.

Quote from: wilmont on September 30, 2009, 02:05:35 AM
Seth,
In Holy Word could you show how Israel atoned for transgression?
And then find in the same Holy Word where man sacrifice is authorized for this purpose?

Then why would you teach an unbiblical atonement?

I am just curious?
You would not lie to your children would you?

Nope I would not lie to my children. But since I take the NT as a teaching authority, you might disagree with me on whether or not the sacrifices were a shadow of a man sacrifice sanctified and purposed by God.

Quote from: wilmont on September 30, 2009, 02:10:50 AM

Again, you take that out of context.
None is good as Gd, none is righteous as Gd, does not mean none is good or does good things, or none is righteous.

That's the point, to be conformed to the righteousness of God.

People do good things. That is why it is called having ones "own RIGHTEOUSNESS." But our own righteousness (good deeds), which are by the law, are as dirty rags.

Quote from: Seth on September 30, 2009, 02:10:58 AM

Quote from: wilmont on September 30, 2009, 02:05:35 AM
Seth,
In Holy Word could you show how Israel atoned for transgression?
And then find in the same Holy Word where man sacrifice is authorized for this purpose?

Then why would you teach an unbiblical atonement?

I am just curious?
You would not lie to your children would you?

Nope I would not lie to my children. But since I take the NT as a teaching authority, you might disagree with me on whether or not the sacrifices were a shadow of a man sacrifice sanctified and purposed by God.

Your teaching a doctrine from a group of writings called the NT.
If the temple and its implements were patterned after those in heaven (which is what the NT says), then why go to a place that has human sacrifice?  Tha does not come from NT, that comes from a bad doctrine.

The shadow or pattern is all men die and will become like the original OHR / LIGHT (skinless) and be with Gd.

Thats alright...I have argued with Orthodox Jews on this too.
Many think sacrifices are not abstract symbols but to be taken literally...some of you are sort of the same "Roman letter of the law" folks.

Quote from: wilmont on September 30, 2009, 02:15:47 AM
Your teaching a doctrine from a group of writings called the NT.
If the temple and its implements were patterned after those in heaven (which is what the NT says), then why go to a place that has human sacrifice?  

The shadows are not the image of the very thing. That is why. The sacrifices are not simply a shadow of Christ killed on the cross. They are the shadow of a life lived in sacrifice by walking according to the Spirit.

Jesus Christ is the priest setting the animal (me) on the alter and killing it. All that is a shadow of a life changed from old death in sin, to newness of life.

Quote from: wilmont on September 30, 2009, 02:17:57 AM
Thats alright...I have argued with Orthodox Jews on this too.
Many think sacrifices are not abstract symbols but to be taken literally...some of you are sort of the same "Roman letter of the law" folks.

The book of Romans is awesome.  :cloud9: :thumbsup:

Quote from: Seth on September 30, 2009, 02:12:50 AM

Quote from: wilmont on September 30, 2009, 02:10:50 AM

Again, you take that out of context.
None is good as Gd, none is righteous as Gd, does not mean none is good or does good things, or none is righteous.

That's the point, to be conformed to the righteousness of God.

People do good things. That is why it is called having ones "own RIGHTEOUSNESS." But our own righteousness (good deeds), which are by the law, are as dirty rags.

I don't think Gd views all people good works as dirty rags (I think you really got to understand the context), in fact there is actually Holy Word thats says this is not so.
Even a tiny fruit can save a starving person (doesn't have to be a big fruit).

MATTHEW'S  ACCOUNT:
Chapter 17
1 And after six days Jesus is taking aside Peter and James and John, his brother, and is bringing them up into a high mountain, privately,
2 and was transformed in front of them. And His face shines as the sun, yet His garments became white as the light.

Quote from: Seth on September 30, 2009, 02:19:41 AM

Quote from: wilmont on September 30, 2009, 02:15:47 AM
Your teaching a doctrine from a group of writings called the NT.
If the temple and its implements were patterned after those in heaven (which is what the NT says), then why go to a place that has human sacrifice?  

The shadows are not the image of the very thing. That is why. The sacrifices are not simply a shadow of Christ killed on the cross. They are the shadow of a life lived in sacrifice by walking according to the Spirit.

Jesus Christ is the priest setting the animal (me) on the alter and killing it. All that is a shadow of a life changed from old death in sin, to newness of life.

They are the shadow of a life lived in sacrifice by walking according to the Spirit.


I agree with some, except I am not sure on your concept of spirit.

What does the NT commentary actually say?

A pattern, which is a detailed description based in heaven.  Are there sacrifices in heaven?  

So maybe something is not quite right?

What happened to setting yourself on the altar of Christ (I have heard that one too)?

Also,
Animals did not sacrifice themselves...they had/have no choice (yet).
However I can be chosen by Gd (as his servant) to self sacrifice for the unsaved (whether Christians or Jews).

I got to go for now (got to watch house hunters with the wife).
I suppose I must sacrifice.

QuoteThey are the shadow of a life lived in sacrifice by walking according to the Spirit.


I agree with some, except I am not sure on your concept of spirit.

What does the NT commentary actually say?

A pattern, which is a detailed description based in heaven.  Are there sacrifices in heaven?  

So maybe something is not quite right?

What happened to setting yourself on the altar of Christ (I have heard that one too)?

No sacrifices in heaven, because the shadows are a type of Christ who is in heaven. He is the only sacrifice that counts. That is what it means to say that the tabernacle is pattered after heavenly things. All those heavenly things are found in Christ.

When Jesus died what happened to the veil in the temple? It ripped in two. It is revealed in the NT writings that the veil was Christ's flesh. So, it was by Christ sacrificing himself (breaking his body like bread), that we are able to enter into the most holy place (the then resurrected Spirit). That is how the tabernacle is patterned after heavenly things.

That is how we pass through the veil into the holiest place, which is no longer closed off to people who aren't of the Levitical bloodline. The veil is open to all who believe and therefore proceed through the newly torn veil. We pass through because when Christ's flesh was torn in two, leading to the resurrected Spirit, our own flesh likewise is joined to Christ's death, so that anyone who passes through the threshold of the holiest place, will likewise see their flesh torn asunder.

Quote from: wilmont on September 30, 2009, 02:30:05 AM
Also,
Animals did not sacrifice themselves...they had/have no choice (yet).
However I can be chosen by Gd (as his servant) to self sacrifice for the unsaved (whether Christians or Jews).

Exactly, the animals did not sacrifice themselves. That is why love was not yet revealed in the shadow. Love is when a man lays down his life for his enemies.

Quote from: Seth on September 30, 2009, 02:36:52 AM

Quote from: wilmont on September 30, 2009, 02:30:05 AM
Also,
Animals did not sacrifice themselves...they had/have no choice (yet).
However I can be chosen by Gd (as his servant) to self sacrifice for the unsaved (whether Christians or Jews).

Exactly, the animals did not sacrifice themselves. That is why love was not yet revealed in the shadow. Love is when a man lays down his life for his enemies.

No, that does not define love ( Jesus did not teach lay life down for enemies, he taught different in Matt. 5 commentary). Gd would rather have you live for him; laying down life FOR A FRIEND, does not mean to kill oneself, or be killed (although it might happen).
To serve, lay aside, bend down for etc.

In Deut. 6:5;
"And you shall love God your lord with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your might."

I would understand, that all my desires must be subordinate to love of Gd with all my heart.  To love with all your soul, means to love more than love itself regardless of the sacrifice it might take (Jesus had teachings on this)...which could be literally my own.  All my might means, my capabilities, every last penny if necessary.
It is like a marriage between a husband and wife (Gd and I), and Holy Union.  Dying and living for love.

Of course love was revealed to some, before Jesus came.
It was never about literally sacrificing animals and giving Gd blood so he could be appeased of His wrath (this came from the nations by which Israel was to be weaned away from).

But as Moses said in Ex. 34:7;

keeping mercy unto the thousandth generation, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin; and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and unto the fourth generation.'

We pass on our guilt (transfer it of sorts) to our children through our WORD and DEED.
We teach our children that they are a bad creation that only does good once in awhile, instead of teaching them that they are a good creation which sins once in awhile.
There were always those who understood what the sacrifices were about....SELF SACRIFICE, they were this sacrifice, killing off the flesh to be as if re- born in original state,  as Ohr / light.

I was raised from a very early age to believe that I was a bad creation who very rarely did good.
I always hurt Gd.

Do you really think you will make your children more obedient or better "repenters" because they think they are a bad creation?

Stop transfering the guilt.

There is lot in the Qumran texts, concerning how they viewed guilt, righteousness, love etc.
They were called "sons or elect of righteousness", they had a "teacher of righteousness" which would deliver them.

The nations had a different view in the later Roman Christian Jesus doctrine, since this was all new to them (for the most part, except for those previously known as Gd fearers).  And he was to become the end to their previous forms of deity worship, and sacrifices (he became their understanding of the True Gd).

Quote from: wilmont on September 30, 2009, 12:26:27 PM

Quote from: Seth on September 30, 2009, 02:36:52 AM

Quote from: wilmont on September 30, 2009, 02:30:05 AM
Also,
Animals did not sacrifice themselves...they had/have no choice (yet).
However I can be chosen by Gd (as his servant) to self sacrifice for the unsaved (whether Christians or Jews).

Exactly, the animals did not sacrifice themselves. That is why love was not yet revealed in the shadow. Love is when a man lays down his life for his enemies.

No, that does not define love ( Jesus did not teach lay life down for enemies, he taught different in Matt. 5 commentary). Gd would rather have you live for him; laying down life FOR A FRIEND, does not mean to kill oneself, or be killed (although it might happen).

According to the word of God it does.

Romans 5
6For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

You see, while Jesus' enemies considered him their enemy, Jesus died for them, something a friend does.

Seth,
Greetings.
You might think that, but I am going by what NT says.
It is not always as easy when it comes to these things.

To people who don't believe in Gd.....none of this makes a bit of difference to them.
At the time of Jesus the main issue of concern was between competing sects who believed in an afterlife.
One group believed (after captivity in baby land) that giving of alms, and Torah study / Works ensured your placement in the kingdom of Gd.  Another sect believed that this was not the case, because they had a different interpretation of Torah, its purpose.
Jesus died for the ungodly, because these were those who were still held captive to pagan ritual, sacrifices and alot of that stuff spoken of by Paul.  Also being born Jewish did not mean you would not be ungodly, but following Torah (even if one did believe in good works to get to the kingdom), certainly did not make a person ungodly.

Also, check your ungodly.



Jesus did say (I am sure it is in there), that he would become a ransom for many.  Not all ransoms are biblically the same.
Some people were already beyond sacrifice...they were/are not part of the many, because they already BELIEVED in a Jesus Gospel.

It is also possible that Jesus saw himself as a symbol of Israel and would take the punishment of captivity from the gentiles (their guilt transfer upon Israel) upon himself and thus save them from this (prophecy that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation).

Quote from: wilmont on September 30, 2009, 09:13:28 PM
Seth,
Greetings.
You might think that, but I am going by what NT says.
It is not always as easy when it comes to these things.

Yes, and the NT says that Jesus died for all and that he died for the ungodly. It also says that everyone has sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. That is who Jesus died for: everyone. As you well know, none are good but God comparatively. Well that is the whole point. God is SO Good that even our righteousness is dirty rags in comparison.

QuoteJesus did say (I am sure it is in there), that he would become a ransom for many.  Not all ransoms are biblically the same.

Jesus did say that he would be a ransom for many. However it would be a fallacy to say that "all" cannot also qualify as "many."

Quote from: Seth on September 30, 2009, 09:21:22 PM

Quote from: wilmont on September 30, 2009, 09:13:28 PM
Seth,
Greetings.
You might think that, but I am going by what NT says.
It is not always as easy when it comes to these things.

Yes, and the NT says that Jesus died for all and that he died for the ungodly. It also says that everyone has sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. That is who Jesus died for: everyone. As you well know, none are good but God comparatively. Well that is the whole point. God is SO Good that even our righteousness is dirty rags in comparison.

QuoteJesus did say (I am sure it is in there), that he would become a ransom for many.  Not all ransoms are biblically the same.

Jesus did say that he would be a ransom for many. However it would be a fallacy to say that "all" cannot also qualify as "many."

I certainly don't believe that the writers of the NT were inept...but you keep trying to convince me.

If you define ungodly by the standard Christian definition....where does Holy Word say a man can die for another mans sin?

Well, think about it: The Holy Word says a man DID die for everyone's sin. So if Jesus did die for everyone's sin, then it makes perfect sense that he CAN, or COULD. If he couldn't, he wouldn't have.

I don't believ we are quite yet to this point as my brother so say;

" In those days they shall no longer say, "The fathers ate unripe grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge,"
but through his own fault only shall anyone die: the teeth of him who eats the unripe grapes shall be set on edge.

"But suppose this son has a son who sees all the sins his father commits, and though he sees them, he does not do such things:
"He does not eat at the mountain shrines
      or look to the idols of the house of Israel.
      He does not defile his neighbor's wife.

 He does not oppress anyone
      or require a pledge for a loan.
      He does not commit robbery
      but gives his food to the hungry
      and provides clothing for the naked.

He withholds his hand from sin
      and takes no usury or excessive interest.
      He keeps my laws and follows my decrees.
     He will not die for his father's sin; he will surely live.

But his father will die for his own sin, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother and did what was wrong among his people


Everyone still DIES.

Quote from: wilmont on September 30, 2009, 09:37:20 PM
Everyone still DIES.

Do you think I believe in substitutionary atonement?

Quote from: Seth on September 30, 2009, 09:32:56 PM
Well, think about it: The Holy Word says a man DID die for everyone's sin. So if Jesus did die for everyone's sin, then it makes perfect sense that he CAN, or COULD. If he couldn't, he wouldn't have.

Where does Tanach say that man sacrifice is a substitute for animals sacrifice?
You are not trying to portray or teach that it is alright to violate the righteous holy good law, for an unholy concept of sacrificing are you?

Do you think I believe in substitutionary atonement?

Boy...NT writers must have been really illiterate and certainly not Jewish if they tried to teach sacrifice that way; although there is a Jewish concept of dying in the place of another; see Book of Samuel and David as examples.

But certainly never in a atonement sacrifice or offering per Torah.

Quote from: wilmont on September 30, 2009, 09:42:20 PM

Quote from: Seth on September 30, 2009, 09:32:56 PM
Well, think about it: The Holy Word says a man DID die for everyone's sin. So if Jesus did die for everyone's sin, then it makes perfect sense that he CAN, or COULD. If he couldn't, he wouldn't have.

Where does Tanach say that man sacrifice is a substitute for animals sacrifice?
You are not trying to portray or teach that it is alright to violate the righteous holy good law, for an unholy concept of sacrificing are you?

No, I am saying that the Holy Law was a shadow of Christ who came to fulfill it. That includes the sacrifices.

Quote from: wilmont on September 30, 2009, 09:47:40 PM
Do you think I believe in substitutionary atonement?

Boy...NT writers must have been really illiterate and certainly not Jewish if they tried to teach sacrifice that way; although there is a Jewish concept of dying in the place of another; see Book of Samuel and David as examples.

But certainly never in a atonement sacrifice or offering per Torah.

You sidestepped my question.

I am not sidestepping anything.  Your argumentation is off.
Similar to how Christians will say that Jesus can change the law, because he is Gd....even though Holy Word says, and Jesus said he was/is not.


Think critically about it?
The way of your argumentation is actually refuting Jesus as a subsitute for your sin.  Because he has not worked properly, because your still going to die (we all do).  No different then animal sacrifices.

Quote from: wilmont on September 30, 2009, 09:56:45 PM
I am not sidestepping anything.  Your argumentation is off.
Similar to how Christians will say that Jesus can change the law, because he is Gd....even though Holy Word says, and Jesus said he was/is not.


Think critically about it?
The way of your argumentation is actually refuting Jesus as a subsitute for your sin.  Because he has not worked properly, because your still going to die (we all do).  No different then animal sacrifices.

Do you think I believe in substitutionary atonement?

You see?
Even if a man was authorized by Gd as an atonement sacrifice (which we know man is not);

Those under animal sacrifice still died and die.
Those under human Jesus sacrifice still died and die.

Both still die.

Do you think I believe in substitutionary atonement?

Quote from: Seth on September 30, 2009, 09:59:00 PM

Quote from: wilmont on September 30, 2009, 09:56:45 PM
I am not sidestepping anything.  Your argumentation is off.
Similar to how Christians will say that Jesus can change the law, because he is Gd....even though Holy Word says, and Jesus said he was/is not.


Think critically about it?
The way of your argumentation is actually refuting Jesus as a subsitute for your sin.  Because he has not worked properly, because your still going to die (we all do).  No different then animal sacrifices.

Do you think I believe in substitutionary atonement?

Yes....

Do you mean penal substitution?
I think a person can believe in substitutionary atonement without applying a penalty.

There are some who don't hold to sacrifices as substitutes,  they view them more as doing what Gd requires, without any specific inference of substitution.
It is my personal belief that sacrifices were really mans inner desire to rid himself of his "hide/ flesh/ sin" to be as one with Gd (light)....or to see their sins leaving in an abstract substitute like a goat, into the wilderness (to clean the conscience)

Quote from: wilmont on September 30, 2009, 10:02:48 PM

Quote from: Seth on September 30, 2009, 09:59:00 PM

Quote from: wilmont on September 30, 2009, 09:56:45 PM
I am not sidestepping anything.  Your argumentation is off.
Similar to how Christians will say that Jesus can change the law, because he is Gd....even though Holy Word says, and Jesus said he was/is not.


Think critically about it?
The way of your argumentation is actually refuting Jesus as a subsitute for your sin.  Because he has not worked properly, because your still going to die (we all do).  No different then animal sacrifices.

Do you think I believe in substitutionary atonement?

Yes....

Thank you for finally answering the question.

I don't believe in substitutionary atonement as it is understood by Othodox Christianity. I know what I will say, you will probably still disagree with me about, yet still you should disagree with me on what I believe not in what you think I probably believe.

Substitutionary atonement says: "Jesus died taking the retribution for sin on himself, so that man could escape that and be considered righteous by God through belief."

What I believe the NT teaches is that Jesus was raised so that everyone else could be raised. His death occurred so that he could be resurrected, as salvation is not through his death but by his life (Romans 5).

This answers your point about the fact that everyone still dies. They die because the resurrection gift is in being raised FROM the dead. Everyone has sinned and fallen short (beginning in Adam). Romans 6 shows that the Spirit baptism joins us to Christ's death, so that we make walk in newness of life (ending in life in Christ). Immortality is also life from the dead which is why people physically die, another part of the Gospel that Christ's sacrifice and resurrection assures. Those who die in Adam will be given life in Christ: the whole world.

either you are typing some monstrous posting...or I offended you in some manner.

If I did sorry. :icon_flower:

Not at all. I may not be able to reply right away. Hope you understand.  :HeartThrob:

Thanks for your explanation...sort of quasi penal substitution.
I believe that Jesus came to explain and teach that Israel messed it up (see Jer. 8), that sacrifices were never to be taken "literally", to appease Gd for forgiveness...... they were just for weaning purposes, however for those who could not break free from this captivity, he became as if a sacrifice, so it would put it to an end.
I believe in a form of ongoing resurrection, by which he gives some a taste of the age to come (heaven before we get there), through a marriage covenant with Gd.

Quote from: wilmont on September 30, 2009, 10:21:18 PM
Thanks for your explanation...sort of quasi penal substitution.
I believe that Jesus came to explain and teach that Israel messed it up (see Jer. 8), that sacrifices were never to be taken "literally", to appease Gd for forgiveness...... they were just for weaning purposes, however for those who could not break free from this captivity, he became as if a sacrifice, so it would put it to an end.
I believe in a form of ongoing resurrection, by which he gives some a taste of the age to come (heaven before we get there), through a marriage covenant with Gd.

Maybe we don't believe so differently. If the sacrifices were not to be taken literally, that is very similar to saying that the whole law is a type of Christ and that if he is able to supernaturally provide righteousness through a Gentile from the Ozarks who has never even seen or read or heard a copy of the 10 Commandments, then the Gentile would naturally fulfill the righteousness of the law (ie not committing adultery) because he wouldn't even WANT to do commit adultery in the first place.

That would mean that Christ would be causing a follower to do things in the law, without them having to even know what the letter actually says.

Otherwise none could be set free from sin unless they were able to read, hear, or have access to the Law of Moses. If you have been reading my statements you would see that I have also been speaking about an "ongoing resurrection."

The idea that the sacrifices were not to be taken literally would NEVER be able to be accepted by the carnal mind when the Law was given to the Israelites. That is why they sacrificed animals. And that is why they didn't believe their Messiah when he stood before them. They saw the letter, but not that to which the letter pointed: Jesus Christ.

So Jesus was raised to deliver one from the carnal mind. That is why I don't do sacrifices of lambs either. I know they are not to be carnally discerned, but spiritually discerned. But I don't take credit for that knowledge in myself. I credit the Lord for revealing it.

Quote from: Seth on September 30, 2009, 10:33:43 PM
The idea that the sacrifices were not to be taken literally would NEVER be able to be accepted by the carnal mind when the Law was given to the Israelites. That is why they sacrificed animals. And that is why they didn't believe their Messiah when he stood before them. They saw the letter, but not that to which the letter pointed: Jesus Christ.

So Jesus was raised to deliver one from the carnal mind. That is why I don't do sacrifices of lambs either. I know they are not to be carnally discerned, but spiritually discerned. But I don't take credit for that knowledge in myself. I credit the Lord for revealing it.

There are no circumcised people in heaven.

I think originally this (sacrifices) were not the case (since Jeremiah speaks of no sacrifices originally from Egypt 7:22)...I believe Moses knew and relayed the Gospel spoken by Jesus, but they went back to that which they were to be broken free from (see Ex. 34:7 as one example).

Quote from: wilmont on September 30, 2009, 10:55:23 PM

Quote from: Seth on September 30, 2009, 10:33:43 PM
The idea that the sacrifices were not to be taken literally would NEVER be able to be accepted by the carnal mind when the Law was given to the Israelites. That is why they sacrificed animals. And that is why they didn't believe their Messiah when he stood before them. They saw the letter, but not that to which the letter pointed: Jesus Christ.

So Jesus was raised to deliver one from the carnal mind. That is why I don't do sacrifices of lambs either. I know they are not to be carnally discerned, but spiritually discerned. But I don't take credit for that knowledge in myself. I credit the Lord for revealing it.

There are no circumcised people in heaven.

I think originally this (sacrifices) were not the case (since Jeremiah speaks of no sacrifices originally from Egypt 7:22)...I believe Moses knew and relayed the Gospel spoken by Jesus, but they went back to that which they were to be broken free from (see Ex. 34:7 as one example).

I don't necessarily think that Moses knew the Gospel of Christ. I think he knew whatever he was intended to know. But the message has indeed always been: don't sin. But the condition of the flesh that is the condition that Jesus came to heal us from, so that not only do we not sin, we are freed from wanting to sin (which is accomplished by the "ongoing resurrection." That is so anyone can be free whether they have access to the Law of Moses or not.