2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 Are these people going to be saved?

[Seth]

Thats what I am talking about...I can do the "sound bite thing all day".....then Jesus cdertainly should preach that it should be done away with or replaced, which he did not because that would make him an unholy lawless person since the law the law is Holy righteous and good (see your own commentary in Romans 7).

I think you sort of take things at times out of context.

No I have been very consistent with what I am saying.

1) The Law is good and holy
2) The Law is for the ungodly not for the righteous
3) The Law is a schoolteacher to lead us to Christ
4) Christ's Spirit saves us from sin so that we become righteous
5) We are therefore delivered from the law because the law is not for a righteous man but for the ungodly. We have been therefore delivered from that when the Spirit delivers us from our former old self.

That is what I have said all along and it is entirely scriptural and consistent with what I believe and have been stating all along.

[wilmont]

"Go and learn the meaning of the words, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.'  I did not come to call the righteous but sinners."

The righteous don't need sacrifice.

All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God. They are made righteous through faith, because they receive the Holy Spirit. Then they become a living sacrifice. If nobody needs a sacrifice, then that would mean they are righteous on their own merit, and therefore don't need Christ.

This is what you said;

If nobody needs a sacrifice, then that would mean they are righteous on their own merit, and therefore don't need Christ.

There were many Jews at this time who did not hold to the corruption of the temple system or sacrifice are you trying to say they that they didn't / have faith?

A man is not a Biblical sacrifice anyway...so I guess I am confused  Are you saying that if people don't believe in a pagan  type Roman sacrifice they don't have faith?

[Seth]

A man is not a Biblical sacrifice anyway...so I guess I am confused  Are you saying that if people don't believe in a pagan  type Roman sacrifice they don't have faith?

No what I am saying starts with the fact that ALL men have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. The reason Christ gave his life willingly is so that "by his life" we would be saved from sin. That is what the sacrifice was for, not so Christ could stay dead (obviously) but so that BY his resurrected life, we could be delivered from the bondage of sin. That is why Christ sacrificed himself for everyone. The way to inherit Christ's Spirit is by faith in Him.

[wilmont]

Thats what I am talking about...I can do the "sound bite thing all day".....then Jesus cdertainly should preach that it should be done away with or replaced, which he did not because that would make him an unholy lawless person since the law the law is Holy righteous and good (see your own commentary in Romans 7).

I think you sort of take things at times out of context.

No I have been very consistent with what I am saying.

1) The Law is good and holy
2) The Law is for the ungodly not for the righteous
3) The Law is a schoolteacher to lead us to Christ
4) Christ's Spirit saves us from sin so that we become righteous
5) We are therefore delivered from the law because the law is not for a righteous man but for the ungodly. We have been therefore delivered from that when the Spirit delivers us from our former old self.

That is what I have said all along and it is entirely scriptural and consistent with what I believe and have been stating all along.

Well then some Christians must not be very righteous and not spirit filled since they need building codes to put a railing on a deck.

The law does not lead you to a human sacrifice...thats for sure.  So unless Jesus is a non existant symbol of some sorts for a Hellenist philosophy, the law is not always made for the ungodly (some is and some isn't)

[Seth]

Well then some Christians must not be very righteous and not spirit filled since they need building codes to put a railing on a deck.

Who says?

The law does not lead you to a human sacrifice...thats for sure.  So unless Jesus is a non existant symbol of some sorts for a Hellenist philosophy, the law is not always made for the ungodly (some is and some isn't)

The law leads to the deliverer who is a Spirit. Once the man delivered, the law has done its job, and the man is then under the teaching of grace.

[wilmont]

Seth think about it?

If the law is not made for the righteous, but for the ungodly,  but it is Holy and Good, that means the ungodly do what is holy and good, and your understnading of righteous do not.

[Zeek]

Doesn't it say the law was intitially for life?

[Zeek]

10I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.

[Seth]

Seth think about it?

If the law is not made for the righteous, but for the ungodly,  but it is Holy and Good, that means the ungodly do what is holy and good, and your understnading of righteous do not.

The Law is Holy and Good, but it also does not have the power to deliver anyone from sin. So when faith comes, the Spirit delivers one from the body of death (which is a power the law did not have).

So, what Paul means when he says that the Law is for the ungodly, he is saying that it is there to SHOW the ungodly that they are such. That is what it means "the law is FOR the ungodly" according to IT'S purpose.

While the law reveals sin to the ungodly, the Spirit then delivers the ungodly from sin making them godly through grace.

[wilmont]

The reason why the Church has a Magisterium is because you just can't take a bunch of writings from the NT and leave out centuries of foundational understandings.

Bob is a Christian, led by the spirit.....he drives as the spirit directs him and generally drives at about 45 mph...... he did not see that the speed limit sign was reduced from 45 to 25 mph, he ends up getting in an accident, and a ticket for violating the law.
He tried to explain to the judge that he is led by the spirit and the spirit did not tell him to reduce his speed, but that was not really a mitigating factor because the law is the law.

Bob wished the law was not this way.

[Seth]

Doesn't it say the law was intitially for life?

The problem is sin. That is why the law is toward life, but in my flesh is no good thing. That is how the Law has less strength than the Spirit, for what it could not do, Jesus did by condemning sin in the flesh so that the righteousness of the law (love) may be fulfilled in those who walk after the Spirit, not according to the letter.

[Seth]

The reason why the Church has a Magisterium is because you just can't take a bunch of writings from the NT and leave out centuries of foundational understandings.

Bob is a Christian, led by the spirit.....he drives as the spirit directs him and generally drives at about 45 mph...... he did not see that the speed limit sign was reduced from 45 to 25 mph, he ends up getting in an accident, and a ticket for violating the law.
He tried to explain to the judge that he is led by the spirit and the spirit did not tell him to reduce his speed, but that was not really a mitigating factor because the law is the law.

Bob wished the law was not this way.

Civil law was not intended to reveal sin as sin. Our civil laws are for the purpose of keeping everything safe and under control. The Law of Moses is not to make anyone good, that is why comparisons like that are faulty.

[wilmont]

Seth think about it?

If the law is not made for the righteous, but for the ungodly,  but it is Holy and Good, that means the ungodly do what is holy and good, and your understnading of righteous do not.

The Law is Holy and Good, but it also does not have the power to deliver anyone from sin. So when faith comes, the Spirit delivers one from the body of death (which is a power the law did not have).

So, what Paul means when he says that the Law is for the ungodly, he is saying that it is there to SHOW the ungodly that they are such. That is what it means "the law is FOR the ungodly" according to IT'S purpose.

While the law reveals sin to the ungodly, the Spirit then delivers the ungodly from sin making them godly through grace.

Jane is thinking about committing adultery, but she remembered the law concerning this sin.  Jane decided because of the law that she would not sin (prevention).
Jane also went to Hebrew class one day and found out she sinned unintentionally last week (revealed).  Rabbi told her that if it would make her feel better (assurance) then she could give a few dollars to the food pantry.

Thius is different from;

Roger is hanging out with the Cretins at the human sacrifice orgy pit, when they decide to sacrifice a baby so that the gods will forgive them for not giving them all the gold.

[wilmont]

The reason why the Church has a Magisterium is because you just can't take a bunch of writings from the NT and leave out centuries of foundational understandings.

Bob is a Christian, led by the spirit.....he drives as the spirit directs him and generally drives at about 45 mph...... he did not see that the speed limit sign was reduced from 45 to 25 mph, he ends up getting in an accident, and a ticket for violating the law.
He tried to explain to the judge that he is led by the spirit and the spirit did not tell him to reduce his speed, but that was not really a mitigating factor because the law is the law.

Bob wished the law was not this way.

Civil law was not intended to reveal sin as sin. Our civil laws are for the purpose of keeping everything safe and under control. The Law of Moses is not to make anyone good, that is why comparisons like that are faulty.

If you are going to make comparisons for today based on writings from 2,000 years ago, then I can make comparisons of law today based upon the same.
Make it criminal speeding then (criminal law)?
Not putting a railing up on your roof deck in law...is it not?  But yet comes under todays civil ordinances?

[Seth]

Seth think about it?

If the law is not made for the righteous, but for the ungodly,  but it is Holy and Good, that means the ungodly do what is holy and good, and your understnading of righteous do not.

The Law is Holy and Good, but it also does not have the power to deliver anyone from sin. So when faith comes, the Spirit delivers one from the body of death (which is a power the law did not have).

So, what Paul means when he says that the Law is for the ungodly, he is saying that it is there to SHOW the ungodly that they are such. That is what it means "the law is FOR the ungodly" according to IT'S purpose.

While the law reveals sin to the ungodly, the Spirit then delivers the ungodly from sin making them godly through grace.

Jane is thinking about committing adultery, but she remembered the law concerning this sin.  Jane decided because of the law that she would not sin (prevention).
Jane also went to Hebrew class one day and found out she sinned unintentionally last week (revealed).  Rabbi told her that if it would make her feel better (assurance) then she could give a few dollars to the food pantry.

Neither scenario leads to justification. God does not accept our own righteousness which is by the law.

Roger is hanging out with the Cretins at the human sacrifice orgy pit, when they decide to sacrifice a baby so that the gods will forgive them for not giving them all the gold.

This scenario does not lead to justification either.

Man is only saved by faith and sanctification of the Spirit (2 Thessalonians 2:13). The reason this is so has to do with what Jesus was ACTUALLY dealing with in his day:

Matthew 23:27
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

Because someone sees a law not to commit adultery and therefore does not do it, does not address the inner issue that Jesus had with Pharisees who did the same thing.

[Seth]

If you are going to make comparisons for today based on writings from 2,000 years ago, then I can make comparisons of law today based upon the same.

YOu can do whatever you like. I just don't think the comparison follows.

[wilmont]

And yes the law of Moses does make people good or conform, to the laws standard.
The law does not 'ULTIMATELY PERFECT'  a person (you have to physically die to be like that).

[Seth]

And yes the law of Moses does make people good or conform, to the laws standard.
The law does not 'ULTIMATELY PERFECT'  a person (you have to physically die to be like that).

No only the Spirit by faith can make anyone good, because none but God are good and he gives that Goodness as a gift of the Spirit. Nobody's own righteousness by the law is acceptable to God.

[wilmont]

Seth think about it?

If the law is not made for the righteous, but for the ungodly,  but it is Holy and Good, that means the ungodly do what is holy and good, and your understnading of righteous do not.

The Law is Holy and Good, but it also does not have the power to deliver anyone from sin. So when faith comes, the Spirit delivers one from the body of death (which is a power the law did not have).

So, what Paul means when he says that the Law is for the ungodly, he is saying that it is there to SHOW the ungodly that they are such. That is what it means "the law is FOR the ungodly" according to IT'S purpose.

While the law reveals sin to the ungodly, the Spirit then delivers the ungodly from sin making them godly through grace.

Jane is thinking about committing adultery, but she remembered the law concerning this sin.  Jane decided because of the law that she would not sin (prevention).
Jane also went to Hebrew class one day and found out she sinned unintentionally last week (revealed).  Rabbi told her that if it would make her feel better (assurance) then she could give a few dollars to the food pantry.

Neither scenario leads to justification. God does not accept our own righteousness which is by the law.

Roger is hanging out with the Cretins at the human sacrifice orgy pit, when they decide to sacrifice a baby so that the gods will forgive them for not giving them all the gold.

This scenario does not lead to justification either.

Man is only saved by faith and sanctification of the Spirit (2 Thessalonians 2:13). The reason this is so has to do with what Jesus was ACTUALLY dealing with in his day:

Matthew 23:27
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

Because someone sees a law not to commit adultery and therefore does not do it, does not address the inner issue that Jesus had with Pharisees who did the same thing.

But it PREVENTS the person from worse harm to themself or others.
Thats GOOD RIGHTEOUS AND HOLY.

I use your same arguements against Christans who think teaching or believing in an unrighteous doctrine, makes them righteous.

[Seth]

Here is what I am talking about:

"Jane is thinking about committing adultery, but she remembered the law concerning this sin.  Jane decided because of the law that she would not sin (prevention)."

Jane is thinking about committing adultery?

If that is so, then that is what would make her a whited sepulcher. The point of walking according to the Spirit is not just so that you are delivered from DOING sin, but from even WANTING to do it. That is the core difference between grace (the teaching thereof) and the letter.

[Cardinal]

Bob is a Christian, led by the spirit.....he drives as the spirit directs him and generally drives at about 45 mph...... he did not see that the speed limit sign was reduced from 45 to 25 mph, he ends up getting in an accident, and a ticket for violating the law.
He tried to explain to the judge that he is led by the spirit and the spirit did not tell him to reduce his speed, but that was not really a mitigating factor because the law is the law.

Bob wished the law was not this way.

:cloud9: Ahem...... :winkgrin:  I just want to interject something for a moment. I just want to say that the real problem here is that Bob didn't know the Judge personally, only the lawyer arguing on his behalf.

The same thing has happened to me (more than once  :mblush:), and I immediately asked the Judge thru the lawyer, for mercy and favor, and the Judge who is over all, moved upon the face of the waters of the policeman, and granted me mercy and favor because the INTENT of my heart was seen, which was not to break the law, which is just and good.

Sorry, couldn't resist......... :laughing7: Carry on.........Blessings....

[wilmont]

Sorry,
Supertime.

Not really (on your last in speaking on Grace)?

I don't see how Christians can understand or define righteousness the way of the Rabbinics (original conformity to the law), and then deny that a person is justified by how they define it in their concept of Jesus?

The Jews of Qumran and cross sects (be them Pharisaic, Eseene etc.) believed in being justifed by Gd, His righteousness is my source of justification (my justification is in Him, and His presence in me through me and what I do).

Thats why there was a TEACHER OF RIGHTEOUSNESS...because he had to teach something.

[Seth]

Funny story, Card.  :laughing7:

The main point I am making is not in whether or not the law results in people controlling their behavior. It can. That is not the main point or issue that Jesus had. He knew their very thoughts. The law that says "do not commit adultery", when followed, is just a cover-up for WANTING to commit adultery in the first place. Jesus was clear that his intention was to deal with more than what people DID outwardly, but to heal the condition of slavery to the sin which "dwells within" the flesh. People obeying statues, that has no power to change that.

I am a living testimony to that. I did things that I am not proud of, but even if I refrained once in a while, I still WANTED to do them and that is what kept me in slavery and unable ultimately to stop sinning. When the Lord came into my life, the change was internal. Still not perfect, but not under the law which was unable to change my inner life.

The inner life is something that the law cannot touch, which is why Paul said it was not able to do what Jesus did.

[Seth]

I don't see how Christians can understand or define righteousness the way of the Rabbinics (original conformity to the law), and then deny that a person is justified by how they define it in their concept of Jesus?

I base my statements on the clear teaching of the New Testament.

[Seth]

If Jane did not want to commit adultery in the first place, she wouldn't need to remember any statute reminding her not to.