2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 Are these people going to be saved?

[rosered]

 
  Good posts Wilmont !
I agree about everyone having the animal soul !  studied this long ago and  you reminded me  when reading your posts
  makes   the book of Hebrews   more clear  for sure  :thumbsup:
  I know the only  thing no one can seem to get past is ,blaspheming the Holy Spirit   not letting His Spirit enter in and  teach /correct and Love us  , even Love has its discipline and correction  or it could not be real love
  everything else is forgivable  as I have read it in the WORD OF GOD .

Rev 3 19'Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.

20'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.


Our desires being born a new creature in Christ are now on spiritual  food , clothing and growth  to maturity in the fulness of Christ  :HeartThrob:  and Love is definatly  the main requirement  to achieve that power of God   to  do / come fourth ,though Jesus Christ 
by whom all things are possible  :icon_flower:

[wilmont]

Blessings to you.
Yes, not good to blaspheme the Holy marriage union in this age.

[Seth]

"Go and learn the meaning of the words, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.'  I did not come to call the righteous but sinners."

The righteous don't need sacrifice.

All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God. They are made righteous through faith, because they receive the Holy Spirit. Then they become a living sacrifice. If nobody needs a sacrifice, then that would mean they are righteous on their own merit, and therefore don't need Christ.

[Seth]

This would be true only if you isolate 1 John 4:7-8 from the rest.

1 John 2:22
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

1 John 2:22
Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son.

Galatians 3:22
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

1 John 3
23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

I guess we could say that people who denies Jesus is the Christ, don't deny it, and those don't believe do believe and those who don't have faith do have faith, and that black is white, and a dog is a cat, and on is off, and an apple is a lemon, and so forth. I think we can all agree that we can make the Bible say whatever we want it to say. I've seen it time and again. This message will not make you a friend with the world. The cross is an offense. Nevertheless...

But then how do you reconcile this with the plain-as-day statement that everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God? 

I don't reconcile that by denying other scriptures, especially one's that declare that without faith it is impossible to please God. The only righteousness God accepts is Jesus Christ's righteousness. Love is righteousness, but some love is OUR OWN, but those who have Christ have HIS love through them....thereby DENYING themselves (and their own way of loving the world) and following Him.

I have asked in the past, and have received no answer, what it is that those are being punished for who read the Bible, who agree that the message given by Jesus is one that ought to be followed, and whose only offense is having a background that makes them unable to believe that Jesus is the son of God. 

Punished? I never said that. Even God's own Sons are chastised, and even though it seems grievous. If God chastises his own sons, how then would anyone not be chastised by God according to his wisdom? The Bible shows that if he chastises and scourages us, he deals with us as sons. If those who are not led by the Spirit, are not to be brought to a place of chastisement then God would forever be dealing with them as bastards.

I happen to be friends with an atheist who is married, who has two kids, and who loves his kids and his wife with all his heart just as much as any Christian would.  He bears no ill will towards anyone, and is one of the most pleasant people I have ever had the privilege of interacting with.  If there is such a punishment awaiting him, then quite frankly I hope I receive it as well, because I surely need it more than he.

Well, we are told not to despise the chastening of the Lord. So if you do not despise it, then you do well.

[Seth]

I have heard it said that the difference is that one who believes is one who does not want to sin, even if he or she still does - but to be honest I have seen many who do not believe who do not seem to have a particularly strong desire to sin.

Romans 2:14-15 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

I think if we replace Gentiles with non-Christian you have the answer to your question...

But if you read a little further....

Romans 2
28A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.

How we receive the promise of Abraham (the Spirit)

Acts 5:32
And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Here are his commandments to obey to receive that promise of Abraham:

1 John 3
23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

1 John 5:10
He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

1 John 5:1
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

You cannot delete God's requirement and commandment to believe on Christ, because Christ is the head of the church and whoever is born of God believes in God's Son.

Those who are Gentiles, and have the Spirit, ARE NOT GENTILES at all. That is Paul's point. If by non-Christian you mean non-Believer in the Son, those are still spiritually Gentiles until they become Jews by the Spirit, even if it appears that their own righteousness is sufficient to God. Without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God. I know that is an unpopular belief among UR believers, but it is the teaching Paul brought to the churches.

[WhiteWings]

I have heard it said that the difference is that one who believes is one who does not want to sin, even if he or she still does - but to be honest I have seen many who do not believe who do not seem to have a particularly strong desire to sin.

Romans 2:14-15 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

I think if we replace Gentiles with non-Christian you have the answer to your question...

But if you read a little further....

Romans 2
28A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.

Not sure I understand you but "written on their heart" = "by the Spirit"
For me heart signifies: emotion, passion, feeling, personality, etc.

All IMO...  :winkgrin:

[Seth]

I have heard it said that the difference is that one who believes is one who does not want to sin, even if he or she still does - but to be honest I have seen many who do not believe who do not seem to have a particularly strong desire to sin.

Romans 2:14-15 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

I think if we replace Gentiles with non-Christian you have the answer to your question...

But if you read a little further....

Romans 2
28A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.

Not sure I understand you but "written on their heart" = "by the Spirit"
For me heart signifies: emotion, passion, feeling, personality, etc.

All IMO...  :winkgrin:

The other scriptures I provided show that it is by the Holy Spirit, given to those who obey, by believing on the Son (and therefore not calling God a liar, even if unwittingly) by which a Gentile is a Jew (a Son of God).

You cannot take one scripture and leave out the rest.

[Seth]

Gab,

I think the focus is to much on believing in God. Sure the Bible commands it. No denying that.
But we can't either deny all other things in the Bible.
Your atheist friend seems to pratice the "love your neighbor" commandment. Something not all Christians do.
IMO we are judged on a package deal. Not just one point. Every package will have flaws that will be fixed.
And for me the Christian package by defenition doesn't contain less flaws than the atheist package.
Unless of course we are speaking about the none existing perfect Christian.

Brother, do you see what you are doing here? You say the focus is "too much on believing in God, sure the Bible commands it." God commands it. Therefore, how in the world can a focus be "too much" on doing what God commands?

God commands belief in his son. There is no "but." If he commands it, He commands it. God is clear who is begotten children are:

1) those who have genuine faith and receive the Holy Spirit
2) who therefore act in love through faith

If one point is missing, it's all missing. Those who do not have faith CANNOT please Him, it is IMPOSSIBLE. Those who say they believe and do not act in love are disobedient and worthy of His judgment. Yes, Jesus wants the whole package in his Bride.

[WhiteWings]

If one point is missing, it's all missing.

That's exactly my point Seth. People often forget the 'love your neighbor part'

[WhiteWings]

I have heard it said that the difference is that one who believes is one who does not want to sin, even if he or she still does - but to be honest I have seen many who do not believe who do not seem to have a particularly strong desire to sin.

Romans 2:14-15 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

I think if we replace Gentiles with non-Christian you have the answer to your question...

But if you read a little further....

Romans 2
28A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.

Not sure I understand you but "written on their heart" = "by the Spirit"
For me heart signifies: emotion, passion, feeling, personality, etc.

All IMO...  :winkgrin:

The other scriptures I provided show that it is by the Holy Spirit, given to those who obey, by believing on the Son (and therefore not calling God a liar, even if unwittingly) by which a Gentile is a Jew (a Son of God).

You cannot take one scripture and leave out the rest.

There must be some sort of miscommunication going on here because you just repeat what i wrote.

[Seth]

If one point is missing, it's all missing.

That's exactly my point Seth. People often forget the 'love your neighbor part'

I agree, but I am just saying they should both be taught, not one over the other. Not sure if we agree or disagree on that.

[Seth]

There must be some sort of miscommunication going on here because you just repeat what i wrote.

But what I am saying is that non-believers are not begotten Sons of God, even if they have their own righteousness. I think that is the disagreement. Without belief in Christ, one is not begotten of God. I think that is where our disagreement is, not in the fact that those who believe must love. We both do agree on that.

It seems that what happens is that we see an Athiest doing a good deed, and we think "why bother telling him that he needs to believe in Jesus, he already has love." Doing that, we fall away from the teaching, which has Christ as the head of fellow believers who WILL be persecuted by the world for declaring the whole council of God.

If ETers scoff at URers, it would be better for them to scoff because we are declaring the sum of God's word, not because we omit some of it. I get emails sometimes from ETers who accuse me of taking what I like and leaving the rest. I don't believe that is true, but if it were, I would have no ground to disagree.

[WhiteWings]

If one point is missing, it's all missing.

That's exactly my point Seth. People often forget the 'love your neighbor part'

I agree, but I am just saying they should both be taught, not one over the other. Not sure if we agree or disagree on that.

Both. But there are only 24 hours in a day. That means you can't pray 24 hours a day. Plus help other 24 hours a day.
That idea is not unscriputal.
I'm sure you can find the verses so I won't bother...  :winkgrin:
Jesus saved an animal that fell in a pit/dith on Sabbath. Sabbath was/is for worshipping God. But by saving that animal I think Jesus thaught about balance. Prayer pleases God. But I think helping others also pleases God. That's what I mean by balance.

[WhiteWings]

There must be some sort of miscommunication going on here because you just repeat what i wrote.

But what I am saying is that non-believers are not begotten Sons of God, even if they have their own righteousness.

Agreed!

But IMO only part of the answer.
Let's simplify this by saying there are only 2 commands that matter. Believing and helping others.
If you do both you are a son of God.
But what if you only do 1? Are you still a son of God?
Is believe + unhelpful better as unbelieving + helpful? => remember both things where commanded by God.

So I'm not doing pick and choose as you wrote a few messages above; I'm doubting you can just leave something out and believe it's enough. I think you must do both to be a Son of God. And because of lack of time you need to find a balance.
:2c:

[Seth]

There must be some sort of miscommunication going on here because you just repeat what i wrote.

But what I am saying is that non-believers are not begotten Sons of God, even if they have their own righteousness.

Agreed!

But IMO only part of the answer.
Let's simplify this by saying there are only 2 commands that matter. Believing and helping others.
If you do both you are a son of God.
But what if you only do 1? Are you still a son of God?
Is believe + unhelpful better as unbelieving + helpful? => remember both things where commanded by God.

So I'm not doing pick and choose as you wrote a few messages above; I'm doubting you can just leave something out and believe it's enough. I think you must do both to be a Son of God. And because of lack of time you need to find a balance.
:2c:

I should find a better way of saying that. I didn't mean to implicate that personally to you. I just need to find a better way to communicate that so that it doesn't sound like a personal thing.

To answer your question: "But what if you only do 1? Are you still a son of God?"

My answer: no. That is why Paul said: As many who are LED by the Spirit of God the same are his Sons (paraphrase). If it was only #1 he would have said: As many who believe in Jesus are Sons of God. We agree on that.

So the question, to me is, is someone who does good deeds a begotten Son, even if he/she denies God's Son. The scripture say not. So the alternate question to you is, what if the person fulfills only #2?

The reason I think #1 is important in God's plan, in part, is because of "the trial of our faith." Those who say that belief in Christ is 100% critical, will be scoffed at by the world who would rather have good deeds and deny the Son. Look at the experiences of the earliest church among both Jews as to the flesh, and Greeks. The little church was surrounded...

[wilmont]

Without belief in Christ, one is not begotten of God

Of this there is much controversy and means a myriad of things  even to Christians.
Is this about magic blood of an unbiblical man sacrifice?
Is this about a Roman mythlogical figure, of a once real Jewish Rabbi?
Is this a belief in a "not so Jewish" version of their Messiah?

[wilmont]

Remember at this time there were several mikvah / baptismal sects who understood this as their form of animal sacrifice (to be generated or newborn from above).

Interesting read;

Waters of Eden, The Mystery of the Mikvah by Aryeh Kaplan

ISBN # 1-879016-08-7

[wilmont]

"Go and learn the meaning of the words, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.'  I did not come to call the righteous but sinners."

The righteous don't need sacrifice.

All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God. They are made righteous through faith, because they receive the Holy Spirit. Then they become a living sacrifice. If nobody needs a sacrifice, then that would mean they are righteous on their own merit, and therefore don't need Christ.

Seth,
Its not for you or me to determine that the righteous don't have faith (actually the righteous do have faith).  I think I already discussed this with you?
Its always been about YOU ARE THE sacrifice.
Remember when I mentioned that the righteous suffer, and the unrighteous are punished?
It is not for you or me to determine because someone believes good works earns them assurance, that this negates their assurance?

Thats major "square peg in round hole", churchianity stuff (although some timber frames actually used more square pegs in larger timbers to lock them in place).

Sometimes Christians assume that Gd actually DOES require good works to get into heaven, they just  swap out the man Jesus with a more Orthodox Jewish understanding of rewards and punishments..when thats not what Jesus came to teach.
He was trying to teach you that Gd was a Gd of love and forgiveness since the beginning, and that good works were about fellowship until that time we are reunited.

Some handle the Law the same way...they assume you have to keep the law perfectly or you are not getting to heaven, when that was never the purpose of the law to begin with. 

[wilmont]

An example if I gave NT commentary stating that Jesus actually transgressed the law such as in John 9:16;

So some of the Pharisees said, "This man is not from God, because he does not keep the sabbath." (But) others said, "How can a sinful man do such signs?" And there was a division among them'

The general response would be that Jesus is Gd so he is exempt, or the Pharisees were lying etc.
There are alot of real bad biases when it comes to theology.

[Seth]

An example if I gave NT commentary stating that Jesus actually transgressed the law such as in John 9:16;

So some of the Pharisees said, "This man is not from God, because he does not keep the sabbath." (But) others said, "How can a sinful man do such signs?" And there was a division among them'

The general response would be that Jesus is Gd so he is exempt, or the Pharisees were lying etc.
There are alot of real bad biases when it comes to theology.

The pharisees weren't wrong about that. They just didn't know who the law was for.

1 Timothy 1:9
Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers

[Seth]

Its not for you or me to determine that the righteous don't have faith (actually the righteous do have faith).  I think I already discussed this with you?
Its always been about YOU ARE THE sacrifice.
Remember when I mentioned that the righteous suffer, and the unrighteous are punished?
It is not for you or me to determine because someone believes good works earns them assurance, that this negates their assurance?

Again, you and I have a major difference about what we are to have assurance of. By the way, I never said that the righteous do not have faith. I actually said the reverse: The righteous do have faith.

Sometimes Christians assume that Gd actually DOES require good works to get into heaven

And that last part is why we are talking past eachother. Jesus isn't trying to "get people into heaven" in the Orthodox sense as if Heaven is Disneyland and Jesus is trying to sneak us in the back way. He is setting out to SAVE US FROM SIN. And I have explained to you the part that "good works" play in that apart from "works of the law."

Some handle the Law the same way...they assume you have to keep the law perfectly or you are not getting to heaven, when that was never the purpose of the law to begin with. 

When did I EVER say anything about "getting into heaven" or NOT "getting into heaven?"

Wilmont, you have no clue as to what I am actually talking about.

[wilmont]

An example if I gave NT commentary stating that Jesus actually transgressed the law such as in John 9:16;

So some of the Pharisees said, "This man is not from God, because he does not keep the sabbath." (But) others said, "How can a sinful man do such signs?" And there was a division among them'

The general response would be that Jesus is Gd so he is exempt, or the Pharisees were lying etc.
There are alot of real bad biases when it comes to theology.

The pharisees weren't wrong about that. They just didn't know who the law was for.

1 Timothy 1:9
Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers

Thats what I am talking about...I can do the "sound bite thing all day".....then Jesus cdertainly should preach that it should be done away with or replaced, which he did not because that would make him an unholy lawless person since the law the law is Holy righteous and good (see your own commentary in Romans 7).

I think you sort of take things at times out of context.

[wilmont]

Alot of what Jesus was dealing with was differnt halachtic interpretations of differing sects.
At this time Judaism was very sectarian.
So one group of Pharisees might have understood Jesus as a violator of sabbath / work, because their particular interp. concerning work was differnt from what Jes's sect understood.us;s sect understood (even david used the showbread in violation of law to feed his starving men).

[wilmont]

Its not for you or me to determine that the righteous don't have faith (actually the righteous do have faith).  I think I already discussed this with you?
Its always been about YOU ARE THE sacrifice.
Remember when I mentioned that the righteous suffer, and the unrighteous are punished?
It is not for you or me to determine because someone believes good works earns them assurance, that this negates their assurance?

Again, you and I have a major difference about what we are to have assurance of. By the way, I never said that the righteous do not have faith. I actually said the reverse: The righteous do have faith.

Sometimes Christians assume that Gd actually DOES require good works to get into heaven

And that last part is why we are talking past eachother. Jesus isn't trying to "get people into heaven" in the Orthodox sense as if Heaven is Disneyland and Jesus is trying to sneak us in the back way. He is setting out to SAVE US FROM SIN. And I have explained to you the part that "good works" play in that apart from "works of the law."

Some handle the Law the same way...they assume you have to keep the law perfectly or you are not getting to heaven, when that was never the purpose of the law to begin with. 

When did I EVER say anything about "getting into heaven" or NOT "getting into heaven?"

Wilmont, you have no clue as to what I am actually talking about.

I suppose is you want to say that...okay.
I just see alot of confusion in some of what you are saying?

[Seth]

Its not for you or me to determine that the righteous don't have faith (actually the righteous do have faith).  I think I already discussed this with you?
Its always been about YOU ARE THE sacrifice.
Remember when I mentioned that the righteous suffer, and the unrighteous are punished?
It is not for you or me to determine because someone believes good works earns them assurance, that this negates their assurance?

Again, you and I have a major difference about what we are to have assurance of. By the way, I never said that the righteous do not have faith. I actually said the reverse: The righteous do have faith.

Sometimes Christians assume that Gd actually DOES require good works to get into heaven

And that last part is why we are talking past eachother. Jesus isn't trying to "get people into heaven" in the Orthodox sense as if Heaven is Disneyland and Jesus is trying to sneak us in the back way. He is setting out to SAVE US FROM SIN. And I have explained to you the part that "good works" play in that apart from "works of the law."

Some handle the Law the same way...they assume you have to keep the law perfectly or you are not getting to heaven, when that was never the purpose of the law to begin with. 

When did I EVER say anything about "getting into heaven" or NOT "getting into heaven?"

Wilmont, you have no clue as to what I am actually talking about.

I suppose is you want to say that...okay.
I just see alot of confusion in some of what you are saying?

YOu see confusion because you have a different premise than mine about what Jesus Christ is here to do. NOTHING in the Bible says that Jesus came to save us from not "getting into heaven." The Bible does LITERALLY say that Jesus is named Jesus because he will save his people from their sin.

Nobody is to be saved IN sin, but saved FROM sin.