2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 Are these people going to be saved?

[Seth]

CAN YOU KNOW ME IF YOU DON'T EVEN BELIEVE I EXIST?  :laughing7:

Well, odd as it may sound (and I know it sounds very odd to many), I do actually sometimes wonder about that.  Aionios life is knowledge of God, absolutely.  But 1 John actually goes on and specifically says what it means to know God:

"Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love." (1 John 4:7-8)

In other words, knowing God and loving are interchangeable - one necessarily implies the other.  Of course, one may say then that anyone who does not believe God exists is incapable of love - and I have certainly heard that claim - but this just plain does not sit well with me at all.  I've met many who did not, and quite frankly they seemed no less loving on the whole than those who believed 100% that God exists.

It's for this reason that I've grown to feel that it may actually be the case that there may well be those who know God without even knowing that they know God.  I'm always reminded here of the fact that the sheep in Matthew 25:31-46 seem genuinely surprised at the fact that what they did for those in need were done for God as well.

This would be true only if you isolate 1 John 4:7-8 from the rest.

1 John 2:22
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

1 John 2:22
Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son.

Galatians 3:22
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

1 John 3
23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

I guess we could say that people who denies Jesus is the Christ, don't deny it, and those don't believe do believe and those who don't have faith do have faith, and that black is white, and a dog is a cat, and on is off, and an apple is a lemon, and so forth. I think we can all agree that we can make the Bible say whatever we want it to say. I've seen it time and again. This message will not make you a friend with the world. The cross is an offense. Nevertheless...

[jesushandsarekindhands]

CAN YOU KNOW ME IF YOU DON'T EVEN BELIEVE I EXIST?  :laughing7:

Well, odd as it may sound (and I know it sounds very odd to many), I do actually sometimes wonder about that.  Aionios life is knowledge of God, absolutely.  But 1 John actually goes on and specifically says what it means to know God:

"Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love." (1 John 4:7-8)

In other words, knowing God and loving are interchangeable - one necessarily implies the other.  Of course, one may say then that anyone who does not believe God exists is incapable of love - and I have certainly heard that claim - but this just plain does not sit well with me at all.  I've met many who did not, and quite frankly they seemed no less loving on the whole than those who believed 100% that God exists.

It's for this reason that I've grown to feel that it may actually be the case that there may well be those who know God without even knowing that they know God.  I'm always reminded here of the fact that the sheep in Matthew 25:31-46 seem genuinely surprised at the fact that what they did for those in need were done for God as well.

Gab I totally agree with that.
Some people who dont believe know God better sometimes than an ENTIRE church, because they (the unbeliever) have love and mercy etc (more attributes of God).
In fact i said to my mother the other day (who is not a Christian).
"Mum, i believe that one day God will save everyone", and she said
"Didnt you already know that?".

[Seth]

If you tell people the truth: that they must believe in Jesus, and if they don't have Jesus, they don't have the Father and to believe in the Son is God's commandment, you will be unliked by the world. They will persecute you for that.

They will say things like: "that's arrogant" " who are you to tell me" and so forth and so on.

Jesus PROMISED us that we would be hated for his name's sake. WHY? Why would the Gospel cause both Greeks and Jews to persecute Paul? It was good news right? So why the persecution for spreading good news?

Because the good news says: REPENT, for the kingdom of God is at hand. The good news is that we can have, "joy peace and righteousness in the Holy Spirit." That is the kingdom. But when people are sleeping with hookers, and doing drugs and following FALSE gods (that's right, I said it), do they want to be told "Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand?" Of course not. Do they want to be told not to worship false gods, that they should give everything up, believe on the Son and follow him alone? NO!

The world will HAAAATE that message. The good news is deliverance from sin. But when people don't want that deliverance, when they want to surround themselves by what they unwittingly kill themsleves with, they hear the COMMANDMENTS of God and scoff and hate that good news message of reconciliation and SALVATION from sin.

Whenever I hear a message that makes the truth easy to swallow for the world, I immediately know that something isn't right. People who don't believe, don't believe. It's as simple as that. And without faith, it is impossible to please God. That's the truth.

The Gospel is good news, but that Good News is absolutely HOSTILE to sin. That is why the apostles were persecuted by the world.


Galatians 5:11
Dear brothers and sisters, if I were still preaching that you must be circumcised—as some say I do—why am I still being persecuted? If I were no longer preaching salvation through the cross of Christ, no one would be offended.

[jesushandsarekindhands]

If you tell people the truth: that they must believe in Jesus, and if they don't have Jesus, they don't have the Father and to believe in the Son is God's commandment, you will be unliked by the world. They will persecute you for that.

They will say things like: "that's arrogant" " who are you to tell me" and so forth and so on.

Jesus PROMISED us that we would be hated for his name's sake. WHY? Why would the Gospel cause both Greeks and Jews to persecute Paul? It was good news right? So why the persecution for spreading good news?

Because the good news says: REPENT, for the kingdom of God is at hand. The good news is that we can have, "joy peace and righteousness in the Holy Spirit." That is the kingdom. But when people are sleeping with hookers, and doing drugs and following FALSE gods (that's right, I said it), do they want to be told "Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand?" Of course not. Do they want to be told not to worship false gods, that they should give everything up, believe on the Son and follow him alone? NO!

The world will HAAAATE that message. The good news is deliverance from sin. But when people don't want that deliverance, when they want to surround themselves by what they unwittingly kill themsleves with, they hear the COMMANDMENTS of God and scoff and hate that good news message of reconciliation and SALVATION from sin.

Whenever I hear a message that makes the truth easy to swallow for the world, I immediately know that something isn't right. People who don't believe, don't believe. It's as simple as that. And without faith, it is impossible to please God. That's the truth.

The Gospel is good news, but that Good News is absolutely HOSTILE to sin and death. That is why the apostles were persecuted by the world.


Galatians 5:11
Dear brothers and sisters, if I were still preaching that you must be circumcised—as some say I do—why am I still being persecuted? If I were no longer preaching salvation through the cross of Christ, no one would be offended.

Well i know how it feels to miss my sins, im getting better but...whoa, its been hard going for a long time...and you know what?  When i was really IN those sins i was totally and utterly miserable and wanted OUT of them.
Now they seem tempting, but i know its a lie now and i know they cause nothing but misery.

[Molly]

When i was really IN those sins i was totally and utterly miserable and wanted OUT of them.

I know what you mean.  Our sins cause us such misery, and yet, we are tempted to cling to them.  The whole world is miserable, thinking all the while it's seeking after pleasure.

[Seth]

YOu guys are really touching on an interesting issue. Sin feels good to the flesh, but I have never known anyone (including me) who sinned with all the things that seemed pleasurable, but were happy. The pleasures are immediate and easy to the flesh so they become habitual, yet deeper it's a deep wound that needs healing. Good word (works) guys.  :thumbsup:

[jesushandsarekindhands]

When i was really IN those sins i was totally and utterly miserable and wanted OUT of them.

When i was really IN those sins i was totally and utterly miserable and wanted OUT of them.

I know what you mean.  Our sins cause us such misery, and yet, we are tempted to cling to them.  The whole world is miserable, thinking all the while it's seeking after pleasure.

I know what you mean.  Our sins cause us such misery, and yet, we are tempted to cling to them.  The whole world is miserable, thinking all the while it's seeking after pleasure.

Im having a total war in my mind right now over it all, it really is hell!
The spirit is pulling me one way, and the body the other...they just wont agree!  But i keep forcing the body "Listen!  Listen to the spirit, you know fine well God wants whats best for you, you know fine well your were MISERABLE in those sins and how horrible they made you feel...LISTEN!!!! LISTEN to God!  YARRRGHHH!!!"
Its working, but going to take time.  I was hoping i could repent in a day, and then avoid all this agony, but...its not the case!  My mind just struggles to conform, yet im getting better all the time, i can feel it.

[jesushandsarekindhands]

YOu guys are really touching on an interesting issue. Sin feels good to the flesh, but I have never known anyone (including me) who sinned with all the things that seemed pleasurable, but were happy. The pleasures are immediate and easy to the flesh so they become habitual, yet deeper it's a deep wound that needs healing. Good word (works) guys.  :thumbsup:

Yes Seth totally true,  its pleasurable for that period of time, then after wards, the words 'degraded', ashamed, 'used', weak, etc springs to mind...hardly awe-inspiring stuff that brings lasting pleasure.

[rosered]

YOu guys are really touching on an interesting issue. Sin feels good to the flesh, but I have never known anyone (including me) who sinned with all the things that seemed pleasurable, but were happy. The pleasures are immediate and easy to the flesh so they become habitual, yet deeper it's a deep wound that needs healing. Good word (works) guys.  :thumbsup:

Yes Seth totally true,  its pleasurable for that period of time, then after wards, the words 'degraded', ashamed, 'used', weak, etc springs to mind...hardly awe-inspiring stuff that brings lasting pleasure.

yeppers  agree  !!!!  the hungry  dark   hole of the soul can never be satisfied with the  temporary  pleasres of our  dying flesh /lusts

  Ehp 2 comes to mind again  the Power of God though Jesus Christ is to fulfill  us with His Life /gifts   to destroy  the power of death/sin  within us all   to believe is to obey  truth  and the obey is to Believe HIM !  HE IS THE TRUTH ! :icon_flower:
fresh  new and clean whole / complete  in His Body of believers


  Jhn 11:26 And whosoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Believe thou this? 

  believe   Strong's G4100 - pisteuō πιστεύω
Transliteration
pisteuō
Pronunciation

pē-styü'-ō (Key)

Part of Speech
verb


from G4102


Outline of Biblical Usage

1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in

a) of the thing believed

1) to credit, have confidence
b) in a moral or religious reference

1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul

2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith

3) mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith

2) to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity

a) to be intrusted with a thing

OBEYStrong's G3982 - peithō πείθω
Transliteration
peithō
Pronunciation

pā'-thō (Key)

Part of Speech
verb

Root Word (Etymology)

a primary verb



Outline of Biblical Usage 1) persuade

a) to persuade, i.e. to induce one by words to believe

b) to make friends of, to win one's favour, gain one's good will, or to seek to win one, strive to please onec) to tranquillise

d) to persuade unto i.e. move or induce one to persuasion to do something

2) be persuaded

a) to be persuaded, to suffer one's self to be persuaded; to be induced to believe: to have faith: in a thing

1) to believe

2) to be persuaded of a thing concerning a person

b) to listen to, obey, yield to, comply with

3) to trust, have confidence, be confident

AWESOME  and simple plan  :HeartThrob: :girlheart:  rose

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Marc, take your God-given authority over your wife/soul and command "her" to be silent in His temple/church! Do it every day, as many times a day as it takes for "her" to be silent.

Pr 21:19 - It is better to dwell in the wilderness, than with a contentious and an angry woman.

Our "woman/soul" is ALWAYS angry and contentious, because "she" resists the will of the Spirit for our lives. We're told to CONTEND for the faith, and it is against none other than our own angry soul or the angry souls of others. Once we learn how to shut "her" up, the road gets easier. Blessings...

[jesushandsarekindhands]

:cloud9: Marc, take your God-given authority over your wife/soul and command "her" to be silent in His temple/church! Do it every day, as many times a day as it takes for "her" to be silent.

Pr 21:19 - It is better to dwell in the wilderness, than with a contentious and an angry woman.

Our "woman/soul" is ALWAYS angry and contentious, because "she" resists the will of the Spirit for our lives. We're told to CONTEND for the faith, and it is against none other that our own angry soul or the angry souls of others. Once we learn how to shut "her" up, the road gets easier. Blessings...

'Shes' being a right little nag lately!  Forever reminding me of how imperfect i am and saying "Come on! Come back, you know you want too!"

Dont worry Card i wont go back x

[peacemaker]

Not many are prepared to step down, taking responsibility for their fallacies and admit to their mistakes; clinging to their position of exalting themselves.

"And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more, in real knowledge and all discernment,..." (Philippians 1:9)

[willieH]

willieH: Hi EW...  :cloud9:

Another post you WON'T (and probably CAN'T) answer:

   I agree with much of your post Willie. If I wanted to make all my posts as long as all your replies, I could explain every possible tense and relationship between time and eternity as I see it.

:Yeahright:  Instead of addressing what is spoken to you... you make excuses by erecting strawman avoidances such as -- "If I wanted to make all my posts as long as all your replies"...   :blah:  Your own "wind" is seen to be pretty looooooooooong as well...  :laughing7:

It is obvious, for instance, that we are already priests of God in Christ. That does not necessarily eliminate the possibility of further functions in the ages to come.

There is no NEED for "ages" to COME... for when TIME is FULFILLED (fullness of times)  wherein are "ages to come"?  You yourself, have noted in your recent posts, the "FULNESS of TIMES" [Eph 1:10]... which alludes to something which is COMPLETE... the "LAST DAY" notes an END to "DAYS" ...as WE know them...  :dontknow:

JESUS is the ALPHA and OMEGA... Omega of WHAT Eaglesway?  What shall have an END?  Is it not that which has BEGINNING?  :laughing7:

And HOW do you percieve Him Eaglesway?  Does He have an END?  Did He have a BEGINNING?  Or is He WITHOUT either, and in FACT the marking points (beginning & end) of that which IS TEMPORAL which is EVERYTHING within -- TIME?

You spoke in an earlier post that some can LEAVE "BABYLON", but readily drag portions of it along with them...  :omg: This is exactly what YOU are doing, Eaglesway... 

Thinking that "more TIME" is needed (ages) even though it's destiny is to be -- FULFILLED... :rolleye:

Obviously not all men have entered the day. They are children of the night. Therefore it is necessary to use the terminology of time and space at times, and while some of your disagreements with my posts are substantial, some of them are just splitting hairs.

ALL shall bow at the knee and confess with the tongue by the CONCLUSION of the LAST DAY... then there shall be NO "children of the night"... for DAYS and NIGHTS shall no longer BE...

ALL the [COMPLETED] GENERATIONS of the Heavens and the Earth, are found within the creative "DAY" of YHVH -- Gen 2:4

For example, we have been entrusted with the ministry of reconciliation as priests of God unto men in Christ- of course, it is obvious, only God is capable of performing the actual reconciliation, through the shed blood of Christ- this kind of objection on your part is just splitting hairs.

:Yeahright:  More excuses... RECONCILIATION is ACCOMPLISHED...

(1) as JESUS noted at the cross with His last words -- "it is FINISHED" -- John 19:30 --

(2) and Paul noted to the Colossians -- Col 1:20 -- "and having made PEACE through the BLOOD of the CROSS" = DONE DEAL! 

(3)  And to the Corinthians -- 2 Cor 5:19 -- "who HATH RECONCILED us to HIMSELF" = DONE DEAL!

You just hold a FINITE and LINEAR viewpoint dude... not my problem... It is not on my agenda to convince YOU of anything... but to help others find FOCUS upon the SPIRITUAL, you are welcome to remain as close to the skin as you wish...

2Co 5:18-20  Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,  (19)  that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God.

We participate in this as priests and as sons having received the inheritance, in His name. Even Jesus said..... "I can of mine own self do nothing". "As we see the day approaching", there may be differences in our understanding-but the finished work of which you so eloquently speak is being worked out in time and space- it may be finished in the mind of God, and in the mind of those who walk in the day, but as Paul said

2Th 3:2  And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.

Rom 8:25  But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

Perhaps you would correct Paul and say, "Hey Paul, we already have it!"

I don't presume to correct anyone... Only GOD can correct.  I have amply noted that as FINITES, we must step through the moments of time, so please dont attempt to pervert what I say...  If you find error in my speech, then QUOTE IT and see if God shall give you the words of correction.  Otherwise, don't pose me in IMAGINARY scenarios, saying things I have not said.

FAITH, HOPE and PATIENCE are part of the process, and I have NOT denied this.  However... the ETERNAL is already -- IN PLACE and COMPLETE -- even though, as members of TIME, we temporarily, ...are NOT...

As:

The artist gazes upon the HORIZON, and the Painting (which is to come in a process) is seen in the EYE and MIND of the PAINTER as complete, even though he must step through the process of putting on CANVAS what is ALREADY COMPLETE in the EYE and MIND...  :dontknow:

We do not yet see all subject to Him, but we know "It is finished", but they do not know. So there are administration in effect now and administrations yet to come "as the day approaches".

AGAIN you gravitate to the FLESH... If you observe in the SPIRIT, you embrace the FINISHED product... and IN that, find the power to step through the moments to GET there...

2Pe 3:8-10  And this one thing let not be unobserved by you, beloved, that one day with the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day; (9)  the Lord is not slow in regard to the promise, as certain count slowness, but is long-suffering to us, not counselling any to be lost but all to pass on to reformation,  (10)  and it will come--the day of the Lord--as a thief in the night, in which the heavens with a rushing noise will pass away, and the elements with burning heat be dissolved, and earth and the works in it shall be burnt up.

Your observance of these words is a vision of the end... PETER spoke to the JEWS who met the DESTRUCTION of JERUSALEM in 70 A.D. -- which is an alternate vision, held by many as studied or more than either of us.  I personally believe it to be a past revelation as do they...

The message of the irrelevance of TIME to God, is duly noted... and other clues are availed in this passage that serve to uncover symbolism elsewhere in the Scriptures...

Here's another question or 2... (that you will likely ignore), ...do you believe JESUS shall make a PHYSICAL appearance and PHYSICALLY DESTROY the earth, Eaglesway?

For what purpose shall He DESTROY the earth?  What did the earth -- DO -- to merit DESTRUCTION Eaglesway?

When He "came" unto you... were YOU PHYSICALLY DESTROYED Eaglesway?

The GOSPEL is NOT composed of FEAR, such as you and your Babylonian baggage sorrowfully propose... Preaching God shall be EXTENDING sorrow instead of ENDING it...  :thumbdown:

It is LOVE come from Heaven to SAVE... not to THREATEN or INTIMIDATE

It is PEACE come from Heaven to CALM the calamity of SORROW not to PERPETUATE or sustain it...

It is GRACE which has removed PENALTY which YOU and your "baggage" wish to further IMPOSE...

It is EXCLUSIVELY GOOD NEWS that such as  YOURSELF would pervert, diffuse and confuse,  ...which RE-CREATES of the OLD, something NEW... As in DESTROYING an ENEMY by making (creating) him a FRIEND... NOT by ELIMINATING (destroying) him...

It is SPIRITUAL not PHYSICAL...

It is based on ETERNITY not TIME...

It is based in LOVE which CASTS OUT FEAR... 

Your vision is full of MIRAGES that you in your obsession with PHYSICAL, must have more "time" even though the Scripture speaks of FULLNESS of TIME, ...You, in your "version" of the "GOSPEL", ...shout of "awful destruction" and TORMENT to come... which is, sorry to say brother E, ...OTHER than GOOD NEWS... :rolleye:

If I am shouting to the world of NUCLEAR WAR, does that sound like GOOD NEWS to you?  And in presenting GOD who claims He is LOVE... your "gospel" is that HE is bringing FIRE and DESTRUCTION to those who don't "hear"... even though it is HE which gives EARS to "HEAR" -- This sounds like a MENTAL CASE, not GOD... who claims Himself to be LOVE...

Let's see... GOD has the EARS with which to HEAR His message, and hands them out to whom He chooses,  :LoveH1:

Then BRINGS the "FIRE & brimstone" down upon those who didn't GET EARS from Him...  :talkangry: :spank:

hmmmm --  :JCThink: -- this sounds like MENTAL instability to me...  :wacko2: :tease: :prankster: ...not GOD!  :giveheart:

The language of the mystery of time and eternity changes from time to time in the scriptures depending on the purpose and perspective of the Holy Spirit in the passages and their subject matter. We could pick that apart in one another for ages to no profit.

What kind of HOO-Ha is this?  :blahgreen:

Instead noting these VAGUE, impertinent and/or undiscussed peripherals... why not take a moment, and answer me once in a while Eaglesway? 

You continually FAIL to address questions asked of you... which are a distinguishing hallmark of one which has NO ANSWERS, yet speaks his garbled IMAGINATIONS (above) regardless, while remaining purposely OBLIVIOUS of and to  those UNANSWERED QUESTIONS... :rolleye:

...willieH (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/somebody614/grouphug2.gif)

[jesushandsarekindhands]

The boys have started getting tough eek!

[Zeek]

Gal 4:2  But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.

Gal 4:9  But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Gal 4:10  Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.

Gal 4:22  For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

Gal 4:23  But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

Gal 4:24  Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which engendereth to bondage, which is Hagar.

Gal 4:25  For this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Gal 4:26  But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Eph 1:10  That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Gal 4:25  For this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Eph 1:14  Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

[IceDash]

This is what I expect from some people even christians, when I preach them good news on other place during the last months, they all saying the exact SAME thing and mocking me:

"Oh yeah, since God alreadly save us, what the point saving lost soul we work so hard?"

"No hell? You are the children of satan, bottom line."

"Paul warn people about differant gospel should be condemned and he serious about it, you are condemned alreadly, Paul rebuked you!"

"Okay, so can keep sinning, it doesn't matter anymore, right? How stupid can you be? Be gone you filthly, Jesus doesn't know you! Depart with the demon at hell since you served them!"


I already answer them, this gospel give me peace and love and understanding and I don't sin very often, All I do is lies, lazy and sexual fantasy things, that's the only sin I do and I am not perfect

then they blast me again:

"Good, if you believe in one God, even the deils believe and SHUDDER! go away, you only want to hear the most comfortable things of man's gospel, not Jesus's gospel, be gone!"

I was trying to teach people exactly what you guys do but I was booted from the internet chat room, mocking me to confuse the new believer and push me away to lure their's believer away from me and the new believer are convinced with the christians than I am

That's because they won't let me talk! Funny how they call me children of satan when they are doing exact thing!

[Gab]

This would be true only if you isolate 1 John 4:7-8 from the rest.

1 John 2:22
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

1 John 2:22
Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son.

Galatians 3:22
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

1 John 3
23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

I guess we could say that people who denies Jesus is the Christ, don't deny it, and those don't believe do believe and those who don't have faith do have faith, and that black is white, and a dog is a cat, and on is off, and an apple is a lemon, and so forth. I think we can all agree that we can make the Bible say whatever we want it to say. I've seen it time and again. This message will not make you a friend with the world. The cross is an offense. Nevertheless...

But then how do you reconcile this with the plain-as-day statement that everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God?  The only way I can see to do so is to claim that anyone who is not a Christian is incapable of loving.  I have read all of the verses you quote.  Can I explain them authoritatively?  No; but the interpretation that you propose (as many others have) is as much in conflict with my conscience as the doctrine of eternal torment.

I have asked in the past, and have received no answer, what it is that those are being punished for who read the Bible, who agree that the message given by Jesus is one that ought to be followed, and whose only offense is having a background that makes them unable to believe that Jesus is the son of God.  I happen to be friends with an atheist who is married, who has two kids, and who loves his kids and his wife with all his heart just as much as any Christian would.  He bears no ill will towards anyone, and is one of the most pleasant people I have ever had the privilege of interacting with.  If there is such a punishment awaiting him, then quite frankly I hope I receive it as well, because I surely need it more than he.

[WhiteWings]

Gab,

I think the focus is to much on believing in God. Sure the Bible commands it. No denying that.
But we can't either deny all other things in the Bible.
Your atheist friend seems to pratice the "love your neighbor" commandment. Something not all Christians do.
IMO we are judged on a package deal. Not just one point. Every package will have flaws that will be fixed.
And for me the Christian package by defenition doesn't contain less flaws than the atheist package.
Unless of course we are speaking about the none existing perfect Christian.

[Gab]

Gab,

I think the focus is to much on believing in God. Sure the Bible commands it. No denying that.
But we can't either deny all other things in the Bible.
Your atheist friend seems to pratice the "love your neighbor" commandment. Something not all Christians do.
IMO we are judged on a package deal. Not just one point. Every package will have flaws that will be fixed.
And for me the Christian package by defenition doesn't contain less flaws than the atheist package.
Unless of course we are speaking about the none existing perfect Christian.

I suppose, though, that the real core question that I have is what comes through that belief that did not exist previously - that is, what in a believer is more right with God than before that belief took root.  There are both those adhering to eternal torment and universal reconciliation alike who agree that it has some effect, but to be perfectly honest I have never quite understood just what that effect is.  We are still capable of sinning, and we do still sin, both before and after we come upon a belief that Jesus is the son of God.  Humans are capable of loving both with and without such a belief.  I have heard it said that the difference is that one who believes is one who does not want to sin, even if he or she still does - but to be honest I have seen many who do not believe who do not seem to have a particularly strong desire to sin.  And I have seen those who claim to believe who seem entirely unconcerned with sinning as long as it's for Jesus (for example, a nasty fundamentalist I met online who constantly bore false witness against what my real beliefs were during a debate).

If the two most important commandments are to love God and to love our neighbor, and if, as is alluded to in Matthew 25:31-46 and 1 John 4:7-12, we love God through the spreading of love to all mankind, then I just really, really want to know where the factual belief that Jesus is the son of God fits into the puzzle, because try as I might (and as others have) I have never been able to find that piece.

[WhiteWings]

I have heard it said that the difference is that one who believes is one who does not want to sin, even if he or she still does - but to be honest I have seen many who do not believe who do not seem to have a particularly strong desire to sin.

Romans 2:14-15 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

I think if we replace Gentiles with non-Christian you have the answer to your question...

[Gab]

Romans 2:14-15 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

I think if we replace Gentiles with non-Christian you have the answer to your question...

Well, that's kind of along the lines of what I was thinking, but that actually doesn't really answer the question - I'm still not sure what is added to a person through the belief that Jesus is the Christ that is not present prior to that belief.  I'm always told how important it is, but as I said, I've never really quite understood why.  It's always kind of struck me as seeming like an arbitrary hoop one must jump through, which is a view that almost certainly comes from my not understanding just what it changes.  If it was a necessary step towards loving others or towards no longer wishing to sin, I could see that - but it doesn't seem to be.

[wilmont]

wilmont,

From what I am reading so far, is it fair to say you hold to the Holy Kabbalah? The reason I ask is because of what you said about Adam being originally a being of light, which would correspond to the idea that the soul of man exists in a journey of 4 bodies, Nephesh, Ruach, Neshamah, and Yechida. Is this what you have come to understand?

Thanks,

Ron

No,
I believe all men have an animal soul (called flesh), and a perfect life breath spirit (as spoken in Gen. 2).
Flesh is a symbol of sin
Blood is a symbol of life spirit

The word "skin"  (as in garmnents of skin) is ohr,  when written with an aleph instead of an ayin it means "light".

Every man has light covered in skin (temple of Gd).

Not;

Kill Gd's creation to be close to Gd.



Jesus believed in self sacrifice and would understand temple sacrifices as;
Sacrifice flesh, to get rid of the sin, and sprinkle my life spirit (Symbol in blood) closer to Gd.

[wilmont]

"See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ. "

People (be them Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus etc.) don't depend on, or look to the life spirit.

[wilmont]

Only physically dead people no longer neede the law, and even in this it has been changed and corrected, so its not as easy as to say;

"Thats what the bible says."

For instance because a person violates Torah do you really think Gd has a punishment requiring a persons wife to be "pimped out"9Deut. 28:30)?

[wilmont]

"Go and learn the meaning of the words, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.'  I did not come to call the righteous but sinners."

The righteous don't need sacrifice.