2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 Are these people going to be saved?

[wilmont]

There are things in the Bible which have been changed / so called scribal correction that may not always be correct.
For instance concerning punishment for violating Torah in Deut. 28:30 we read;

Thou shalt betroth a wife, and another man shall lie with her; thou shalt build a house, and thou shalt not dwell therein; thou shalt plant a vineyard, and shalt not use the fruit thereof.

the passage actually reads "another man shall enjoy her (yishalgenah)" .

Don't you think Gd is smart enough if he wanted the passage to read "lie or sleep with her", he would have written yishkavenah instead of yishalgenah? :icon_flower:

Blessings

[wilmont]

Knowledge or to know, in is also a euphemism for sexuality (Hebrew),..evil is a seperation from Gd.
Edenic bodies were really LIGHT (perfect life spirits), or light bearing, and one with Gd, since no seperation.
In other words Adams body was originally made of light. But after he sinned (evil seperationfrom), Gd clothed his body in covering we now call skin.
All men have an Ohr / Aleph (perfect Light spirit), clothed in an animal soul or skin , Ohr / Ayin.
When you physically die, you return your perfect Ohr / Aleph, because you no longer have your flesh body.


This is much different theology than thinking that Gd killed an animal to cover a man because he sinned.

This is the difference between thinking that Jesus died FOR MY SIN (as if Gd requires his sacrifice) or Jesus died BECAUSE OF MY SIN, because all along man rejected the GRACE, love and forgiveness.

[Seth]

Loving someone does not put a railing on their roof.

It can result in that, if love is genuine, and the roof railing is necessary. Sometimes, however, a roof railing isn't necessary if roof access is impossible. But, to keep the neighborhood children from getting hurt, someone might add a fence around their front lawn to keep them from slipping on the concrete steps. There is no code for that in the law. But love is the righteousness of the law, so a Christian might do that regardless of a code, and even if it was a code, if the Christian didn't know it was, he would be following it by nature of love.

Romans 13:8
Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Romans 13:10
Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Galatians 5:14
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

[Seth]

Jesus does not meet the requirements of a levitical sacrifice, its not biblical.
Especially  John the B, since he most likely was a Mandeaan who considered blood sacrifice a sin.

All the sacrifices were a shadow of Christ.

[Seth]

This is the difference between thinking that Jesus died FOR MY SIN (as if Gd requires his sacrifice) or Jesus died BECAUSE OF MY SIN, because all along man rejected the GRACE, love and forgiveness.

Grace is not just forgiveness, but teaching and guiding. Jesus therefore died so that by his resurrected Spirit (the promise of Abraham) would be given those who believe, who could walk by the Spirit, and fulfill the righteousness that is of the law (love). Love is fulfilled in action not simply belief. Jesus died to get rid of sin, to take it away, not just to cover it and pretend like it doesn't exist.

Romans 13:8
Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Romans 13:10
Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Galatians 5:14
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

[sparrow]

Edenic bodies were really LIGHT (perfect life spirits), or light bearing, and one with Gd, since no seperation. In other words Adams body was originally made of light.

Where did you learn this...and can a light body see/touch/hear/feel?
And what about the bodies of animals?

And how do you explain this:

then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh; 22 and the rib which the LORD God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man. 23 Then the man said, "This at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man."

(I'm not picking on you!! I'm just curious about your views.)

I believe that there ARE beings of light. I don't know if they are angelic beings, or what.
But I do definitely believe there are these types of beings. For a very good reason, I believe.

But I never heard any teachings that man was ever a being of light.
Thanks in advance for explaining your views.

[gregoryfl]

wilmont,

From what I am reading so far, is it fair to say you hold to the Holy Kabbalah? The reason I ask is because of what you said about Adam being originally a being of light, which would correspond to the idea that the soul of man exists in a journey of 4 bodies, Nephesh, Ruach, Neshamah, and Yechida. Is this what you have come to understand?

Thanks,

Ron

[Zeek]

Edenic bodies were really LIGHT (perfect life spirits), or light bearing, and one with Gd, since no seperation. In other words Adams body was originally made of light.

Where did you learn this...and can a light body see/touch/hear/feel?
And what about the bodies of animals?

And how do you explain this:

then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh; 22 and the rib which the LORD God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man. 23 Then the man said, "This at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man."

(I'm not picking on you!! I'm just curious about your views.)

I believe that there ARE beings of light. I don't know if they are angelic beings, or what.
But I do definitely believe there are these types of beings. For a very good reason, I believe.

But I never heard any teachings that man was ever a being of light.
Thanks in advance for explaining your views.

possible here??

4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[a] it.

6There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.


Matt 5:14; "you are the light of the world"

[Seth]

Laren, just MHO, the Matthew verse isn't talking about our flesh, dust bodies, but newness of life. The light is within.

[sparrow]

Laren, just MHO, the Matthew verse isn't talking about our flesh, dust bodies, but newness of life. The light is within.

Yeah, that's the way I see it, as well.

[Seth]

Sparrow you seem like a pretty reasonable person. Tell me what you think.

Suppose someone has just enough money to pay for either a roof addition according to the building code in the Law of Moses, or to build a fence around his yard. Hypothetically, suppose roof access is impossible for a given reason so nobody can get up there, and the man builds a fence instead because he has concrete steps that the neighborhood kids could fall on. He decides to spend his last dime to build the fence out of concern for the children. Has he fulfilled the law?

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Eaglesway... :hithere:

As I said, I would see you on the board... well "here I is!"  :laughing7:

This will be a long answer (your post had its own longevity)... and will be in TWO PARTS -- and if you wish to learn, you will give it attention... Ignore it if you must, it matters not to me, either way.

I speak as the Lord gives unto me... and admit beforehand that it is quite possibly flawed in some areas (I am ALWAYS learning)... but it will definitely give you a perspective that is (1) UN-Orthodox (praise God) and (2) differing from your view for the most part, but is Scripturally based, and Spiritually discerned...

PART 1


I am in agreement with these words of yours:

In Romans 9, 10, 11 Paul deals with calling and election and cutting off and grafting in and predestined purposes and temporary rejection- regarding Israel. He says things like, "the natural branches will were cut off for their unbelief". Then He explains this from the perspective that, "a partial hardening has come upon Israel until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled". He says God did this in order to bring us mercy and our reciving mercy will mean eternal life for them(Romans 11:15) He finishes by saying "So ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED". He adds, For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.In case anyone has a problem with this Paul finishes with the words

Rom 11:32-36    (33)  Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!  (34)  "Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?"  (35)  "Who has ever given to God, that God should repay him?"  (36)  For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen.

You see Chosen, you read, "cut off" and you hear "eternal torment, but the english word- damnation/condemnation translated to Greek is really "passing sentence" and in english- destruction is really "ruin, waste, perdition". Jesus speaks of the cutting down of trees and the washing away of houses built on sand and being delivered over to the judge by the bailiff, and many stripes and few stripes. Paul speaks works of wood hay and stubble being burned in the fire caused by "the day" for "the day shall reveal it" 1Cor 2:13-15. There are many stripes and few stripes and you will not get out till you pay the last penny. You write as if all those verses you listed somehow connect to the idea of eternal torment- that is because you are looking through a red glass, you only see red..... you need the veil taken away. Please read these next passages with an objective view.

Col 1:16-21  For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.  (17)  He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.  (18)  And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.  (19)  For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,  (20)  and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. (21)  Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior, now he has reconciled...

God has shut up all in disobedience in order to have mercy on ALL. ALL come through MERCY. THE END GAME IS THAT EVERYTHING HE CREATED WILL BE RECONCILED THROUGH THE BLOOD OF THE CROSS. Nothing, having annihilated or in eternal torment can be reconciled.

I can mostly say AMEN to this writing...  :cloud9:  except that ALL THINGS already ARE [not "will be"] reconciled... 

In BLUE (Col 1:21) it states ""HAS reconciled"" and after quoting this verse (in RED above) you say "WILL BE reconciled" -- a contradiction... something that HAS been RECONCILED, does not need FUTURE RECONCILATION

Only the FINITE and earth-bound viewpoint sees that RECONCILIATION is a "yet to be" proposition...

RECONCILIATION already IS... and already WAS a FACT, from the foundation of the WORLD, which noted before the Creation took place, ...the LAMB SLAIN (past tense) from it's FOUNDATION -- Rev 13:8

"TIME's passing" did NOT accomplish the RECONCILIATION, ...it has ALWAYS BEEN an ETERNAL FACT, and DID NOT and DOES NOT require the passing of TIME, in order to ...BE..


Now begins my disagreements:

Eph 1:9-10  He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him  (10)  with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.

This summing up of all things into one under the headship of Christ is the mystery of the gospel and it is AN ADMINISTRATION SUITABLE TO THE FULNESS OF TIMES. A plan executed over several ages.

Yes,  and those "ages" (which are TIME periods leading up the FULLNESS of TIMES) that continue until the LAST DAY -- John 6:39, 44 -- 11:21 -- 12:48 -- in which ALL MEN will have "taken a knee" and CONFESSED with the tongue that JESUS CHRIST is Lord to the GLORY of YHVH...

For the FULLNESS of TIME is the consumation of ALL THINGS within it to be FULFILLED (history of man, and knowledge of G & E).  TIME is like a bucket, in which GOD pours the elements of it into this bucket, until it is ...FULL.  :laughing7:

The activities and inhabitants of TIME are the KNOWLEDGE of GOD being displayed concerning GOOD and EVIL... Our existence in THIS LIFE is HIS KNOWLEDGE, not only being PERFECTLY FULFILLED as DECLARED by HIM, but COMPLETE in its ETERNAL DISPLAY of the attributes and potentials of both GOOD and EVIL which EMERGE from HIS KNOWLEDGE of them...

We, as His CHILDREN are blessed to be participants of this MAJESTIC and DIVINE INTERNAL KNOWLEDGE, being EXHIBITED EXTERNALLY... and FOREVER known, thereby giving ALL entities within and without of YHVH GOD, a TRUE and COMPLETE observation of HIS internal MAJESTIC DIVINITY ...forever... ALL in ALL...

It is also important to remember, that GOD does not need TIME to pass in order to BE... nor does His WORD need TIME to pass in order to BE at its BEGINNING and its END... for the WORD is found to be BOTH...

1Co 15:22-25  For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.  (23)  But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,  (24)  then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.  (25)  For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
1Co 15:28  When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

I have already addressed this, these Scriptures are speaking of Linear TIME being fulfilled...

GOD does not "become" ALL in ALL... He ALWAYS IS, what He ALWAYS IS --- that being ALL in ALL...  To "become" ANYTHING, necessitates a CHANGE from a prior positioning. God is a COMPLETE and PERFECT entity, which does not EVER change, for that which is PERFECT needs NO ALTERATION...

We who were the first to trust in Christ have received the reconciliation, and have been judged already through His death. Others will come to bow the knee and confess with the tongue in the process of the enemies being made subject.

Like to stop this just for a quick moment... the ENEMIES of GOD are NOT and never have been MEN... Men are the CHILDREN of GOD... LOVED by HIM as GRACE teaches... and is exemplified in the statement that HE so LOVES the WORLD that He created.

COMPLETE and UNDEFILED LOVE, always holds in its HIGHEST ESTEEM, its CHILDREN.

The ENEMIES of GOD are those things which bring separation between His Children and Himself... [sin-unrighteousness and Ungodliness OF men - against which the Wrath of GOD comes - Rom 1:18

And which is easily seen in the present SORROWS through which we ALL traverse in THIS LIFE... :nod:

Eph 1:11-12  In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:  (12)  That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Eph 2:7  That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Okay... here please consider that we must absolutely LEAVE our linear observation of "ages" in which we as FINITES continually observe as TIME, ...to know what the "1000 years" are as "SYMBOLICALLY stated", in the SPIRIT ...in the REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST...

The Revelation (revealing) of JESUS CHRIST is from the END to the BEGINNING, for that is the manner in which YHVH Declared the History of mankind which "declaration" was according to His PERFECT Foreknowledge of it -- Isaiah 46:10-11 -- so in order to understand the book which is at the END of the writings of God, we must consider the BEGINNING for it is in the BEGINNING that many clues lie in the REVEALING of JESUS CHRIST...

The WORD notes that a "DAY" is AS a "1000 years" and a "1000 years" is AS a "DAY" -- 2 Pet 3:8

Most observe this Scripture that "TIME" is an irrelevant factor to God... which is ONE true observation of it... the "passing" of time IS irrelevant to ONE who IS in ALL portions of it as it is "passing" (before WE enter those portions)... However... there is more to this statement in 2 Pet 3:8 than the "passing" of TIME...

In the BEGINNING, God notes that ALL the GENERATIONS of MAN appear within the "DAY" [the "when"] that God created the Heavens and the Earth -- Gen 2:4

In order to understand this principle, one must recognize that CREATION is an ON-GOING activity within TIME... It appears that God creates ALL that would appear IN TIME, in the moments of its "passing", however it (time) is an ALREADY COMPLETED entity from His position.   As the END was (already) DECLARED from the BEGINNING... The INFINITE Creator already EXISTS in ALL MOMENTS of time, even though the FINITE entities within it, must "pass" through its MOMENTS one by one...

This "DAY" mentioned in Gen 2:4 -- is the Complete History of Mankind... which SPIRITUALLY takes place in the symbolic term "1000 years" marked in the REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST... for the WORD of GOD which is what JESUS CHRIST ...IS...  ALWAYS IS, ...and has been afforded to MAN since the BEGINNING, in which GOD spoke to ADAM and EVE... and IS already THERE waiting at the END of TIME  for us all (created entities - passing through time), to arrive (RETURN to) where we BEGAN... for the ALPHA ...IS... the OMEGA (beginning IS the end)... and vice versa -- Rev 1:8

This will be the end of PART 1... thanks for reading...

PART 2 to follow...

...willieH (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/somebody614/grouphug2.gif)

[Beloved Servant]

Amazing message Willie.
Thank you Jesus.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: That was awesome, Willie......... :happyclap: :2thumbs:  PTL that God forms the hearing ear in His people. As a small witness, I just want to say that He told me that the Alpha (Christ and those that were one with Him from before the foundation/time) and the Omega (Christ and those that are becoming one with Him NOW) are the same. He told me this is the meaning of Him saying I AM (those in the beginning with Him) THAT (or that I will be) I AM. Blessings.....

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Eaglesway... :hithere:

PART 2:

Not a lot is given about the ages to come, but we will reign with Him AS PRIESTS (teaching men, reconciling men unto God, tearing down evry stronghold  and fortress that exalts itself against the true knowledge of God(this is fire).

We (as called by Him) ALREADY occupy the offices of PRIESTS which ARE [not will be] teaching men, tearing down the BARRIERS which separate His Children from Him. 

RECONCILING however, is NEVER EVER, ...done by men... GOD RECONCILES men to Himself -- 2 Cor 5:19 --  It is HIS WORD which we are HONORED to bestow at HIS LEADING that RECONCILES men to Himself...

Though we DO minister HIS WORD to them... We in truth are no more "accomplishing" His work, then does a HAMMER build the cabinet!!    :dontknow:  And this is the GRAVE ERROR which is made by these "believers" which call Him LORD (such can only be done BY the HOLY SPIRIT -- 1 Cor 12:3):  Matt 7:22-23 -- for they are TOOLS, seen taking credit for GOD's great WORK, instead of noting themselves as humble TOOLS in His HAND, as HE WORKED...  :sigh:

Until God abolishes all rule power and authority because God is over all in all and through all, in other words ALL CREATION UNIFIED IN HARMONY.

Agreed!  :boogie:

That is the process of the (time) unfolding of the KNOWLEDGE of GOD (good & evil), in which we are all particpants brother Eaglesway...  :dontknow:

That is the true knowledge, God wants all men reconciled, and "Works all things after the counsel of His will".(also Ephesians 1) That is why the whole creation groans eagerly awaiting the revelation of the sons of God who wilparticipate with God in the SETTING FREE of creation into the glorious liberty of the sons of God(Romans 8:19-22)

God more than "wants" all men reconciled, He has seen TO it!  The setting FREE of Creation is that the WORD of GOD permeates it...

These verses -- Rom 8:19-22 -- don't speak of the Sons of God "assisting" Him in FREEING Creation...

They speak of the SONS which shall have the GLORY (of the "FREEING" WORD) REVEALED in them, which is the manifestation of them AS SONS... (which you might discover, if you back up to verse 18)

For it is the WORD which CREATES "freedom" -- John 7:32 -- and it is THE WORD that is unfolded (revealed) WITHIN US that FREES us, and that FREEDOM thereby extends to the CREATION... which has suffered and become IMPRISONED and enslaved to death, due to our disobedience which brought DEATH into the Creation... (verse 21)

ALL this is done by GOD (who is working ALL THINGS)... to HIS GLORY, not to ours...  :thumbsup:

1Jn 2:2  and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Note that John notes PROPITIATION as in the PRESENT TENSE... for GOD is a "now" kind of GOD... The "propitiation" ...IS... an already ESTABLISHED FACT... due to the SLAIN LAMB at the FOUNDATION of the WORLD... in which that PREORDAINED FACT, eventually unfolded IT's ETERNAL TRUTH (already done) within the FINITE passing of TIME...

Joh 1:29  The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

YES! -- That which is TAKEN AWAY, is... ahemmmm...  NO LONGER THERE!  :myahoo: :boogie: :boydance:

God does not love or forgive His enemies if He annihlates them or torments them forever. If He deals with men through "the hour of trial that is to come upon all those who dwell upon the face of the earth" (excusing only the overcomers from that trial, the first resurrection priesthood), then He reproves men in order to restore them.

No one is "EXCUSED"... SIN is SIN and JUDGMENT ...BEGINS... at the house of GOD -- 1 Pet 4:17 -- JUDGMENT is about LEARNING RIGHTOUSENESS -- Isaiah 26:9 -- and is NOT a BAD THING at all!  It is for our GOOD.

As you present it above, appears to note GOD, as being PARTIAL (to these "1st resurrectioners"), which is contrary to the idea of IMPARTIALITY  GOD notes TEN TIMES in the Scriptures, stating He is NOT any such thing, ...for neither YOU or I chose to be WHO we are, where, when and to whom we were born... Or ANY OTHER parameter of our present existence!

If GOD made Peter and Moses who they were, due to NOTHING they (of their own merit) did to become who they "became"... and by HIS PURPOSE ENABLED them to become who they eventually became -- See Rom 9:11

The how can He name Himself IMPARTIAL to ALL MEN, ...if HITLER or PHARAOH were made who THEY WERE due to NOTHING they (of their own merit) did, and yet ENABLED THEM to become who they "became"?

Well the TRUTH is that EVIL serves the cause of GOOD in the end.  And GOD even endorses this idea in Rom 9:17 -- Ex 9:16

I do not advocate the practice of EVIL... but if it were not there, how could you determine something as GOOD?  If everyone was 6 feet tall, how can you know them to be TALL?  Well -- short defines tall, and Up is defined by DOWN and both are NEEDFUL for one OR the other to find definition...

GOD's KNOWLEDGE of EVIL defines its other side ---> GOOD... for they are together -- ONE KNOWLEDGE as is noted in Gen 2:9 & 17 -- ONE KNOWLEDGE with 2 defining sides...

I will explain in my points below, WHY this (partiality TO and "EXCUSING OF" -- "1st resurrectioners") vision is AMISS... and how this shall all work out for ALL, with GOD remaining NO RESPECTER (impartial) of PERSONS at the CONCLUSION of the LAST DAY...  :cloud9:

It is quite correct that GOD shall NEVER eternally torment men, as I have already indicated above, He LOVES men, ...His "enemies" are not, and never were MEN... His "enemies" are those things which MEN DO... while amidst the unfolding of HIS -- KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL...

The "trial" of LIFE is upon us Eaglesway... and "ALL those who dwell upon the earth", "DWELL" upon it at differing points IN TIME... In those lifetimes is REPROOF found for practiced disobedience...  Which is WHY there is much SORROW, in THIS LIFE, ...NOW... and always HAS been with humans, since the beginning.

That you and I had no consent to our IMMERSION into all the burden, sorrow and losses experienced in THIS LIFE, is because we are RIGHTLY subject to the work of the ALMIGHTY YHVH, instead of the other way around. 

HE doesn"t "react" to US, and then "torments" us because of SIN... we "react" to HIM and recieve our "torments" because it is part of the process of PERFECTION -- Heb 2:10 -- NO MAN, escapes SUFFERING, because it is NEEDFUL within the DIVINE process of the conveyance of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL... which brings us to PERFECTION, for BOTH GOOD and EVIL are part of the PERFECT KNOWLEDGE of GOD -- Gen 3:22

The CLAY is MARRED in the HAND of the POTTER (at His decision that it be MARRED) -- Jer 18:4 - Rom 9:20

He decides ALL parameters of LIFE and DEATH... as well as RESURRECTION... The only thing that shall be found different between the FIRST resurrection and the SECOND, is that the 2nd DEATH shall not HURT those in the 1st resurrection --  --

The biggest question I find in debate with you and others in the Babylonian mindset, is the nature of that "HURT" as well as what the "2nd death" actually is...

Commonly... the Christian believes the "LAKE of FIRE" to be (1) somewhere in the "FUTURE" (instead of NOW) and, either -- (2) "HELL" -- a place of ETERNAL TORMENT -- or (3) a place of TEMPORARY TORMENT in which one shall have the negativity of his earthly and fleshly life TORMENTED out of him (as you have endeavored to preach from your perspective - "pay the VERY last farthing" then get released)... 

These perspectives are Spiritually BLINDED as I see it... and I believe to offer a MUCH BETTER and TRUTHFUL observation of the LOF, ...which (1) includes LOVE (2) MERCY (3) PEACE -- ALL of which are SUPPOSED to be elements of the GOSPEL (which means GOOD NEWS)...  :dontknow: -- Here it is:

FIRST -- CHRIST is the IMAGE of the invisible God... and in that IMAGE, while in the FLESH of MAN, ...He was tempted, disrespected, endured much SUFFERING (torment), and finally suffered DEATH.

GOD is NO RESPECTER of PERSONS (impartial), which means that if CHRIST were to undergo all these things, ...EVERY OTHER MAN, shall follow suit.  CHRIST experienced ALL these in THIS LIFE, on THIS EARTH, while interacting as a member of the human race.  He was the FIRST of many SONS... to follow.  ALL that occured in CHRIST's life... occured before there was even a MAN to suffer.  For He was SLAIN (which was the conclusion of all these negativies) from the FOUNDATION of the world.

SECOND -- let's discuss the "2nd death"... Man (Adam) Spiritually DIED as did all his descendants, upon his initial disobedience to the COMMAND of GOD.  So in essence... ALL MEN even though PHYSICALLY alive, are (since Adam) born SPIRITUALLY  DEAD... CHRIST was born of a human mother, which passed on to Him that unfortunate legacy.  He resided in FLESH which was ABLE to be TEMPTED, SUFFER, and DIE... Well, unlike all others, ...He did NOT disobey the COMMAND of GOD...  And even though He was born with the genetics of SPIRITUAL DEATH... He put to DEATH that which condemns all other MEN to DEATH... Even in His obedience to GOD, He was put to PHYSICAL DEATH.  Which I maintain is the "2nd death" (spiritual being first), and IN taking a PERFECT and UNBLEMISHED LIFE to the Grave... He was able to DIE (spirit removed) and TASTE DEATH (spiritual) for ALL MEN, which re-established (for ALL) the FIRST LIFE that Adam LOST (for ALL)... which is SPIRIT --  Heb 2:9

THIRD -- You and many of your "christian" brethren, preach that the LAKE of FIRE is an entity which shall come at the END of the human race...  but I beg to differ, for the END IS the BEGINNING and vice versa -- Rev 1:8 ...That in my FIRST point, I noted that CHRIST experienced SUFFERING and TORMENT, as well as many other SORROWS is evidence that the LAKE of FIRE is present NOW... and THE smoke OF the TORMENTS rise up forever... It is the TORMENTS which are burning up in THIS LIFE, never to be suffered again EVER! ...and that TIME is the FIRE in which we (in our varying  torments) BURN... :nod:

CHRIST shall NEVER be TORMENTED again, for HIS TORMENT has BURNED and EXPIRED while in this LIFE, which is the LAKE of FIRE, and that TORMENT was the RECONCILING factor which gives LIFE back in the SPIRIT to all those who DIE the 1st death (SPIRITUAL) because of DISOBEDIENCE to the COMMAND of GOD, and resultingly, ...the 2nd Death (PHYSICAL)...

Rev 20:14 describes to a "T" that DEATH and HADES [hell for BAB'S] which are partners -- One DIES then is set in the GRAVE -- and BOTH these together comprise the "2nd DEATH" -- which is the WAGE of SIN...  CHRIST did not taste" this death FOR us... we ALL go down to the GRAVE one by one for ourselves.

However, CHRIST died to His own WILL from the "get-go"... always submitting His own human "will" to the DIVINE WILL of  YHVH... in this, "dieing" to His own... which is the DEATH which He tasted for ALL men -- Heb 2:9 -- taking His OBEDIENCE (which was GOD WORKING His WILL IN HIM) to His earthly GRAVE... whereas we all DIE -- gaining the unfortunate "earnings" which we bring upon ourselves by OUR WORKS...

FOURTH -- The 2nd death shall find that those who do NOT die to themselves in THIS LIFE, shall come forth in the resurrection, bearing their SHAME... and in the NAKEDNESS of IT -- Rev 3:18 -- it is in this final sorrow ON THE LAST DAY, that MOST knees shall bow, and CONFESS that JESUS CHRIST is Lord... to which GOD shall "WIPE AWAY" ALL tears produced at this regretful sorrow... which is essentially what OCCURED in your and my experience at the REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST to us, while in THIS LIFE...

GOD is thereby seen as NO RESPECTER of PERSONS (impartial)... as ALL men SUFFER in this LIFE (including our Savior).  And their TORMENTS are burned up in THIS LAKE of FIRE, and it is the smoke OF the TORMENTS experienced that rise for ever and ever as a reminder of the experience of the indulgence of EVIL -- Rev 14:11 -- and NO man is found paying in ANY WAY for ANY SIN, rather... ALL are brought to TEARS (in and during THIS LIFE [1st resurrection] or upon the 2nd resurrection which takes place on the LAST DAY -- John 6:44), and it is the GRACE and LOVE of GOD that "wipes those tears away", never for them to appear again.

And therein is found the TRUE GOOD NEWS which IS the GOSPEL of PEACE...

(1) CHRIST thereby DID "take away" the sin of the WORLD -- 1 John 2:2 -- John 1:29 -- and,

(2)  The FATHER DID reconcile ALL things at the CROSS of CHRIST making PEACE (not further TORMENT) -- Col 1:20 -- and,

(3)  IS no respecter of persons (impartial) -- Acts 10:34 -- 2 Sam 14:14 (and 8 others) -- as PEACE is found in being released from THIS SINFUL FLESH --  which IS the BODY of THIS DEATH! -- Rom 7:24 ...and,

(4)  God IS not holding our trespasses against us -- 2 Cor 5:19 -- 1 John 2:2 -- And,

(5)  that which is SOWN to the flesh is REAPED of the flesh (as in disease, heartbreak, poverty, shame, famine, wars, natural disasters, etc) -- Gal 6:8

:Peace: be unto you Eaglesway...  :cloud9:

...willieH (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/somebody614/grouphug2.gif)

[IceDash]

willieH: Hi Eaglesway... :hithere:

PART 2:

Not a lot is given about the ages to come, but we will reign with Him AS PRIESTS (teaching men, reconciling men unto God, tearing down evry stronghold  and fortress that exalts itself against the true knowledge of God(this is fire).

We (as called by Him) ALREADY occupy the offices of PRIESTS which ARE [not will be] teaching men, tearing down the BARRIERS which separate His Children from Him. 

RECONCILING however, is NEVER EVER, ...done by men... GOD RECONCILES men to Himself -- 2 Cor 5:19 --  It is HIS WORD which we are HONORED to bestow at HIS LEADING that RECONCILES men to Himself...

Though we DO minister HIS WORD to them... We in truth are no more "accomplishing" His work, then does a HAMMER build the cabinet!!    :dontknow:  And this is the GRAVE ERROR which is made by these "believers" which call Him LORD (such can only be done BY the HOLY SPIRIT -- 1 Cor 12:3):  Matt 7:22-23 -- for they are TOOLS, seen taking credit for GOD's great WORK, instead of noting themselves as humble TOOLS in His HAND, as HE WORKED...  :sigh:

Until God abolishes all rule power and authority because God is over all in all and through all, in other words ALL CREATION UNIFIED IN HARMONY.

Agreed!  :boogie:

That is the process of the (time) unfolding of the KNOWLEDGE of GOD (good & evil), in which we are all particpants brother Eaglesway...  :dontknow:

That is the true knowledge, God wants all men reconciled, and "Works all things after the counsel of His will".(also Ephesians 1) That is why the whole creation groans eagerly awaiting the revelation of the sons of God who wilparticipate with God in the SETTING FREE of creation into the glorious liberty of the sons of God(Romans 8:19-22)

God more than "wants" all men reconciled, He has seen TO it!  The setting FREE of Creation is that the WORD of GOD permeates it...

These verses -- Rom 8:19-22 -- don't speak of the Sons of God "assisting" Him in FREEING Creation...

They speak of the SONS which shall have the GLORY (of the "FREEING" WORD) REVEALED in them, which is the manifestation of them AS SONS... (which you might discover, if you back up to verse 18)

For it is the WORD which CREATES "freedom" -- John 7:32 -- and it is THE WORD that is unfolded (revealed) WITHIN US that FREES us, and that FREEDOM thereby extends to the CREATION... which has suffered and become IMPRISONED and enslaved to death, due to our disobedience which brought DEATH into the Creation... (verse 21)

ALL this is done by GOD (who is working ALL THINGS)... to HIS GLORY, not to ours...  :thumbsup:

1Jn 2:2  and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Note that John notes PROPITIATION as in the PRESENT TENSE... for GOD is a "now" kind of GOD... The "propitiation" ...IS... an already ESTABLISHED FACT... due to the SLAIN LAMB at the FOUNDATION of the WORLD... in which that PREORDAINED FACT, eventually unfolded IT's ETERNAL TRUTH (already done) within the FINITE passing of TIME...

Joh 1:29  The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

YES! -- That which is TAKEN AWAY, is... ahemmmm...  NO LONGER THERE!  :myahoo: :boogie: :boydance:

God does not love or forgive His enemies if He annihlates them or torments them forever. If He deals with men through "the hour of trial that is to come upon all those who dwell upon the face of the earth" (excusing only the overcomers from that trial, the first resurrection priesthood), then He reproves men in order to restore them.

No one is "EXCUSED"... SIN is SIN and JUDGMENT ...BEGINS... at the house of GOD -- 1 Pet 4:17 -- JUDGMENT is about LEARNING RIGHTOUSENESS -- Isaiah 26:9 -- and is NOT a BAD THING at all!  It is for our GOOD.

As you present it above, appears to note GOD, as being PARTIAL (to these "1st resurrectioners"), which is contrary to the idea of IMPARTIALITY  GOD notes TEN TIMES in the Scriptures, stating He is NOT any such thing, ...for neither YOU or I chose to be WHO we are, where, when and to whom we were born... Or ANY OTHER parameter of our present existence!

If GOD made Peter and Moses who they were, due to NOTHING they (of their own merit) did to become who they "became"... and by HIS PURPOSE ENABLED them to become who they eventually became -- See Rom 9:11

The how can He name Himself IMPARTIAL to ALL MEN, ...if HITLER or PHARAOH were made who THEY WERE due to NOTHING they (of their own merit) did, and yet ENABLED THEM to become who they "became"?

Well the TRUTH is that EVIL serves the cause of GOOD in the end.  And GOD even endorses this idea in Rom 9:17 -- Ex 9:16

I do not advocate the practice of EVIL... but if it were not there, how could you determine something as GOOD?  If everyone was 6 feet tall, how can you know them to be TALL?  Well -- short defines tall, and Up is defined by DOWN and both are NEEDFUL for one OR the other to find definition...

GOD's KNOWLEDGE of EVIL defines its other side ---> GOOD... for they are together -- ONE KNOWLEDGE as is noted in Gen 2:9 & 17 -- ONE KNOWLEDGE with 2 defining sides...

I will explain in my points below, WHY this (partiality TO and "EXCUSING OF" -- "1st resurrectioners") vision is AMISS... and how this shall all work out for ALL, with GOD remaining NO RESPECTER (impartial) of PERSONS at the CONCLUSION of the LAST DAY...  :cloud9:

It is quite correct that GOD shall NEVER eternally torment men, as I have already indicated above, He LOVES men, ...His "enemies" are not, and never were MEN... His "enemies" are those things which MEN DO... while amidst the unfolding of HIS -- KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL...

The "trial" of LIFE is upon us Eaglesway... and "ALL those who dwell upon the earth", "DWELL" upon it at differing points IN TIME... In those lifetimes is REPROOF found for practiced disobedience...  Which is WHY there is much SORROW, in THIS LIFE, ...NOW... and always HAS been with humans, since the beginning.

That you and I had no consent to our IMMERSION into all the burden, sorrow and losses experienced in THIS LIFE, is because we are RIGHTLY subject to the work of the ALMIGHTY YHVH, instead of the other way around. 

HE doesn"t "react" to US, and then "torments" us because of SIN... we "react" to HIM and recieve our "torments" because it is part of the process of PERFECTION -- Heb 2:10 -- NO MAN, escapes SUFFERING, because it is NEEDFUL within the DIVINE process of the conveyance of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL... which brings us to PERFECTION, for BOTH GOOD and EVIL are part of the PERFECT KNOWLEDGE of GOD -- Gen 3:22

The CLAY is MARRED in the HAND of the POTTER (at His decision that it be MARRED) -- Jer 18:4 - Rom 9:20

He decides ALL parameters of LIFE and DEATH... as well as RESURRECTION... The only thing that shall be found different between the FIRST resurrection and the SECOND, is that the 2nd DEATH shall not HURT those in the 1st resurrection --  --

The biggest question I find in debate with you and others in the Babylonian mindset, is the nature of that "HURT" as well as what the "2nd death" actually is...

Commonly... the Christian believes the "LAKE of FIRE" to be (1) somewhere in the "FUTURE" (instead of NOW) and, either -- (2) "HELL" -- a place of ETERNAL TORMENT -- or (3) a place of TEMPORARY TORMENT in which one shall have the negativity of his earthly and fleshly life TORMENTED out of him (as you have endeavored to preach from your perspective - "pay the VERY last farthing" then get released)... 

These perspectives are Spiritually BLINDED as I see it... and I believe to offer a MUCH BETTER and TRUTHFUL observation of the LOF, ...which (1) includes LOVE (2) MERCY (3) PEACE -- ALL of which are SUPPOSED to be elements of the GOSPEL (which means GOOD NEWS)...  :dontknow: -- Here it is:

FIRST -- CHRIST is the IMAGE of the invisible God... and in that IMAGE, while in the FLESH of MAN, ...He was tempted, disrespected, endured much SUFFERING (torment), and finally suffered DEATH.

GOD is NO RESPECTER of PERSONS (impartial), which means that if CHRIST were to undergo all these things, ...EVERY OTHER MAN, shall follow suit.  CHRIST experienced ALL these in THIS LIFE, on THIS EARTH, while interacting as a member of the human race.  He was the FIRST of many SONS... to follow.  ALL that occured in CHRIST's life... occured before there was even a MAN to suffer.  For He was SLAIN (which was the conclusion of all these negativies) from the FOUNDATION of the world.

SECOND -- let's discuss the "2nd death"... Man (Adam) Spiritually DIED as did all his descendants, upon his initial disobedience to the COMMAND of GOD.  So in essence... ALL MEN even though PHYSICALLY alive, are (since Adam) born SPIRITUALLY  DEAD... CHRIST was born of a human mother, which passed on to Him that unfortunate legacy.  He resided in FLESH which was ABLE to be TEMPTED, SUFFER, and DIE... Well, unlike all others, ...He did NOT disobey the COMMAND of GOD...  And even though He was born with the genetics of SPIRITUAL DEATH... He put to DEATH that which condemns all other MEN to DEATH... Even in His obedience to GOD, He was put to PHYSICAL DEATH.  Which I maintain is the "2nd death" (spiritual being first), and IN taking a PERFECT and UNBLEMISHED LIFE to the Grave... He was able to DIE (spirit removed) and TASTE DEATH (spiritual) for ALL MEN, which re-established (for ALL) the FIRST LIFE that Adam LOST (for ALL)... which is SPIRIT --  Heb 2:9

THIRD -- You and many of your "christian" brethren, preach that the LAKE of FIRE is an entity which shall come at the END of the human race...  but I beg to differ, for the END IS the BEGINNING and vice versa -- Rev 1:8 ...That in my FIRST point, I noted that CHRIST experienced SUFFERING and TORMENT, as well as many other SORROWS is evidence that the LAKE of FIRE is present NOW... and THE smoke OF the TORMENTS rise up forever... It is the TORMENTS which are burning up in THIS LIFE, never to be suffered again EVER! ...and that TIME is the FIRE in which we (in our varying  torments) BURN... :nod:

CHRIST shall NEVER be TORMENTED again, for HIS TORMENT has BURNED and EXPIRED while in this LIFE, which is the LAKE of FIRE, and that TORMENT was the RECONCILING factor which gives LIFE back in the SPIRIT to all those who DIE the 1st death (SPIRITUAL) because of DISOBEDIENCE to the COMMAND of GOD, and resultingly, ...the 2nd Death (PHYSICAL)...

Rev 20:14 describes to a "T" that DEATH and HADES [hell for BAB'S] which are partners -- One DIES then is set in the GRAVE -- and BOTH these together comprise the "2nd DEATH" -- which is the WAGE of SIN...  CHRIST did not taste" this death FOR us... we ALL go down to the GRAVE one by one for ourselves.

However, CHRIST died to His own WILL from the "get-go"... always submitting His own human "will" to the DIVINE WILL of  YHVH... in this, "dieing" to His own... which is the DEATH which He tasted for ALL men -- Heb 2:9 -- taking His OBEDIENCE (which was GOD WORKING His WILL IN HIM) to His earthly GRAVE... whereas we all DIE -- gaining the unfortunate "earnings" which we bring upon ourselves by OUR WORKS...

FOURTH -- The 2nd death shall find that those who do NOT die to themselves in THIS LIFE, shall come forth in the resurrection, bearing their SHAME... and in the NAKEDNESS of IT -- Rev 3:18 -- it is in this final sorrow ON THE LAST DAY, that MOST knees shall bow, and CONFESS that JESUS CHRIST is Lord... to which GOD shall "WIPE AWAY" ALL tears produced at this regretful sorrow... which is essentially what OCCURED in your and my experience at the REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST to us, while in THIS LIFE...

GOD is thereby seen as NO RESPECTER of PERSONS (impartial)... as ALL men SUFFER in this LIFE (including our Savior).  And their TORMENTS are burned up in THIS LAKE of FIRE, and it is the smoke OF the TORMENTS experienced that rise for ever and ever as a reminder of the experience of the indulgence of EVIL -- Rev 14:11 -- and NO man is found paying in ANY WAY for ANY SIN, rather... ALL are brought to TEARS (in and during THIS LIFE [1st resurrection] or upon the 2nd resurrection which takes place on the LAST DAY -- John 6:44), and it is the GRACE and LOVE of GOD that "wipes those tears away", never for them to appear again.

And therein is found the TRUE GOOD NEWS which IS the GOSPEL of PEACE...

(1) CHRIST thereby DID "take away" the sin of the WORLD -- 1 John 2:2 -- John 1:29 -- and,

(2)  The FATHER DID reconcile ALL things at the CROSS of CHRIST making PEACE (not further TORMENT) -- Col 1:20 -- and,

(3)  IS no respecter of persons (impartial) -- Acts 10:34 -- 2 Sam 14:14 (and 8 others) -- as PEACE is found in being released from THIS SINFUL FLESH --  which IS the BODY of THIS DEATH! -- Rom 7:24 ...and,

(4)  God IS not holding our trespasses against us -- 2 Cor 5:19 -- 1 John 2:2 -- And,

(5)  that which is SOWN to the flesh is REAPED of the flesh (as in disease, heartbreak, poverty, shame, famine, wars, natural disasters, etc) -- Gal 6:8

:Peace: be unto you Eaglesway...  :cloud9:

...willieH (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/somebody614/grouphug2.gif)

That's beautful and I agree but most christian will ask you one most common question:

what about john 3:16?

[sparrow]

Sparrow you seem like a pretty reasonable person. Tell me what you think.

Suppose someone has just enough money to pay for either a roof addition according to the building code in the Law of Moses, or to build a fence around his yard. Hypothetically, suppose roof access is impossible for a given reason so nobody can get up there, and the man builds a fence instead because he has concrete steps that the neighborhood kids could fall on. He decides to spend his last dime to build the fence out of concern for the children. Has he fulfilled the law?

Yes. He has fulfilled the law.

"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

When the two great commandments are written on your heart, you have no need for the law.
Not that the law is done away with but that you no longer need it as your Teacher.

The law gives sin power.
Love completely takes it's power away.

[peacemaker]

"The magnanimity of love, ascending and descending; never separated from the divine nature."

[willieH]

willieH: HI I-D... :hithere:

That's beautful and I agree but most christian will ask you one most common question:

what about john 3:16?

I would say to them, "KEEP READING"...  :reachout:

John 3:17 -- For GOD ...SENT NOT... His Son into the WORLD [He so loved] to CONDEMN the WORLD [He so loved]; but that the WORLD [He so loved], through Him might be SAVED.

If YHVH sent His Son with the DIRECTIVE to NOT CONDEMN -- then it displays that it is the WILL of GOD that men NOT be CONDEMNED...

And that CHRIST condemned NO ONE, displays His AGREEMENT with the WILL of YHVH...

If these 2 -- GOD and His WORD -- are both UNWILLING to CONDEMN men... who or what is there, to CONDEMN us?

I would add... that GRACE does ABOUND MUCH MORE that does SIN in EVERY instance -- Rom 5:20 --- which is More GOOD NEWS - eh?  :dontknow:

THAT is what I would say to those -- "christians" -- IceDash...  :boyheart:

...willieH (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/somebody614/grouphug2.gif)

[Seth]

Sparrow you seem like a pretty reasonable person. Tell me what you think.

Suppose someone has just enough money to pay for either a roof addition according to the building code in the Law of Moses, or to build a fence around his yard. Hypothetically, suppose roof access is impossible for a given reason so nobody can get up there, and the man builds a fence instead because he has concrete steps that the neighborhood kids could fall on. He decides to spend his last dime to build the fence out of concern for the children. Has he fulfilled the law?

Yes. He has fulfilled the law.

"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

When the two great commandments are written on your heart, you have no need for the law.
Not that the law is done away with but that you no longer need it as your Teacher.

The law gives sin power.
Love completely takes it's power away.

Sparrow,  :Urock:

[Beloved Servant]

I would say to them, "KEEP READING"...  :reachout:


lol.

God Bless Willie!

[Seth]

what about john 3:16?

1 John 3:14-17
We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has aionios life IN HIM. This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be IN him? Jesus Christ is....the way....the truth....and what?

According to John, where does aionios-life abide? If your answer is: "it dwells within" you get a prize. And this is the prize: Biblical accuracy. Doesn't it make sense? If someone hates his brother in his heart how could he have LIFE within him? Obviously he couldn't. With that in mind, here Here is the definition of aionios life:

John 17:3
And this is life aionios: that they might know you, the one true God, and Him whom You did send, Jesus Christ.

1 John 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and aionios-life.

You see? Now, back to John 3:16. That those who believe in Christ may not be perishing (death, think about sin and what the wages of it are) but have aionios life. I ask you this: If the definition of aionios life is knowledge of God, can you see why belief is critical? CAN YOU KNOW ME IF YOU DON'T EVEN BELIEVE I EXIST?  :laughing7:

Of course not. Jesus believes in everyone, obviously. But not everyone believes in him, and they don't all know him yet, and that is why those who are believing have aionios life (to know God and his Son), and those who are not....do not. But every knee will bow, and every tongue shall confess in time, and all who were dead in Adam will be vivified in Christ and they will all know him.

:cloud9:

That is what I would tell them.

[eaglesway]

   I agree with much of your post Willie. If I wanted to make all my posts as long as all your replies, I could explain every possible tense and relationship between time and eternity as I see it.

    It is obvious, for instance, that we are already priests of God in Christ. That does not necessarily eliminate the possibility of further functions in the ages to come. Obviously not all men have entered the day. They are children of the night. Therefore it is necessary to use the terminology of time and space at times, and while some of your disagreements with my posts are substantial, some of them are just splitting hairs.

      For example, we have been entrusted with the ministry of reconciliation as priests of God unto men in Christ- of course, it is obvious, only God is capable of performing the actual reconciliation, through the shed blood of Christ- this kind of objection on your part is just splitting hairs.

2Co 5:18-20  Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,  (19)  that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God.


Again, I have quoted in almost every post "who causes all things to work according to the counsel of His will". Obviously, God wants all men reconciled and has accomplished all he "wants" in the finished work of Christ. Yet, in the administration of the mystery, that finished work is unfolding towards the "day" of God being all in all. As regards the present moment Paul states that God desires/wills all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth", but of course they are not all saved/reconciled now, some of them are still "enemies in their mind and alienated from God because of evil behavior" as we "were." You could insist on speaking as if all men are "already" reconciled because the provision is made, but they are not, nor where they in the pre flood kosmos, and apparently they will not all be reconciled in the age to come, hence, the "reign" and the "rod of iron".


We participate in this as priests and as sons having received the inheritance, in His name. Even Jesus said..... "I can of mine own self do nothing". "As we see the day approaching", there may be differences in our understanding-but the finished work of which you so eloquently speak is being worked out in time and space- it may be finished in the mind of God, and in the mind of those who walk in the day, but as Paul said

2Th 3:2  And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.

Rom 8:25  But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

Perhaps you would correct Paul and say, "Hey Paul, we already have it!"

We do not yet see all subject to Him, but we know "It is finished", but they do not know. So there are administration in effect now and administrations yet to come "as the day approaches".

2Pe 3:8-10  And this one thing let not be unobserved by you, beloved, that one day with the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day; (9)  the Lord is not slow in regard to the promise, as certain count slowness, but is long-suffering to us, not counselling any to be lost but all to pass on to reformation,  (10)  and it will come--the day of the Lord--as a thief in the night, in which the heavens with a rushing noise will pass away, and the elements with burning heat be dissolved, and earth and the works in it shall be burnt up.

The language of the mystery of time and eternity changes from time to time in the scriptures depending on the purpose and perspective of the Holy Spirit in the passages and their subject matter. We could pick that apart in one another for ages to no profit.

[Seth]

I think the difference between reconciliation and salvation continues to elude.. :dontknow:

[Gab]

CAN YOU KNOW ME IF YOU DON'T EVEN BELIEVE I EXIST?  :laughing7:

Well, odd as it may sound (and I know it sounds very odd to many), I do actually sometimes wonder about that.  Aionios life is knowledge of God, absolutely.  But 1 John actually goes on and specifically says what it means to know God:

"Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love." (1 John 4:7-8)

In other words, knowing God and loving are interchangeable - one necessarily implies the other.  Of course, one may say then that anyone who does not believe God exists is incapable of love - and I have certainly heard that claim - but this just plain does not sit well with me at all.  I've met many who did not, and quite frankly they seemed no less loving on the whole than those who believed 100% that God exists.

It's for this reason that I've grown to feel that it may actually be the case that there may well be those who know God without even knowing that they know God.  I'm always reminded here of the fact that the sheep in Matthew 25:31-46 seem genuinely surprised at the fact that what they did for those in need were done for God as well.