2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 Are these people going to be saved?

[wilmont]

Seth,

Who told you Jews do love by letter of law?
I think maybe you are misreading Paul.
Love doesn't replace a railing on a roof.:) 
Thats a belief, its not in Holy Word, and Jesus never taught that.

Love can't be done by the letter of the law. The law is not of faith, which is why it is our own righteousness, and not the righteousness of God. Love is done by the Spirit which is the gift that God gives in order to put the flesh to death. When the flesh is put to death (which is a daily walk) love becomes a natural way of life, not something that needs to be instructed from the ministry of death on stone and parchment.

Jesus taught that love will result in actions according to love. My statement was that Gentiles will do the righteousness of the law, not because the letter says so, but they will do it by nature even without a set of letters on parchment and stone to follow.

Sure love can be done by the letter of the law, and the law is of faith.  Otherwise Jews never would have followed it.
Obedience to Torah is in recognition of the Creator.
Thats love.
Remember Jews follow a Gd they do not see, and single Gd.

[Seth]

Those that do a building code, do so to the righteous letter of the law, and build a railing on a rooftop, because the code tells them to, otherwise they might never do it(I don't know this for sure);  whereas another groups leader, has taught them that they are not under the code, but do some of the things of the code naturally, and if someone falls off their roof, its okay because they do the righteous love of the code naturally.

Nobody says that if someone falls of their roof it's ok. If they do the righteousness of the law by walking according to the spirit and not the letter, they would never think "it's ok" that someone got hurt. The point is not regarding building roofs, but in whether or not someone builds it thinking that because they followed the letter, that makes them righteous and justified before God without the Spirit.

The things of the code which are done by nature (which is determined by the impartation of the Godly nature according to the Spirit) are things like: honor your father and mother, love your neighbor etc. Those things a believer would do naturally, not because they follow the code. If they didn't know to do them, GRACE would teach them to live Godly lives in this present age.

The code does not teach, Grace teaches. If someone thinks that building a rail around their roof will make them justified before God because they followed the code, wrong. As many as are LED are sons, not as many has have their own righteousness.

[Seth]

Seth,

Who told you Jews do love by letter of law?
I think maybe you are misreading Paul.
Love doesn't replace a railing on a roof.:) 
Thats a belief, its not in Holy Word, and Jesus never taught that.

Love can't be done by the letter of the law. The law is not of faith, which is why it is our own righteousness, and not the righteousness of God. Love is done by the Spirit which is the gift that God gives in order to put the flesh to death. When the flesh is put to death (which is a daily walk) love becomes a natural way of life, not something that needs to be instructed from the ministry of death on stone and parchment.

Jesus taught that love will result in actions according to love. My statement was that Gentiles will do the righteousness of the law, not because the letter says so, but they will do it by nature even without a set of letters on parchment and stone to follow.

Sure love can be done by the letter of the law, and the law is of faith.  Otherwise Jews never would have followed it.
Obedience to Torah is in recognition of the Creator.
Thats love.
Remember Jews follow a Gd they do not see, and single Gd.

Sorry, the law is not of faith.

Galatians 3:10-14
All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

[wilmont]

Seth,
Even NT commentary does not say the law is not of faith...because it would be sin, and how could the law which defines sin (1 John writings), be sin?

[Seth]

I didn't say that the law was sin. The law not being of faith means that those who practice it are under a curse because they rely on self-righteousness rather than the promise of the Holy Spirit. That promise is by faith not by working of the Law. The Spirit is by which man is able to do the righteousness of the law by nature, not by letter. If you follow some of the law, you are cursed if you do not follow ALL the law. Christ sets us free from the curse of sin so that we may be free from the law of Moses in order to marry Christ.

[wilmont]

Curses precribed in Tanach?
I don't fee cursed by Gd, because Gd doesn't curse me (we do it to ourselves)?
So how does doing things that curse us eventually, not happen to Gentiles too?
By the way Jews do the law naturally too.

[Seth]

Curses precribed in Tanach?
I don't fee cursed by Gd, because Gd doesn't curse me (we do it to ourselves)?
So how does doing things that curse us eventually, not happen to Gentiles too?
By the way Jews do the law naturally too.

Cursed is the one who does not do ALL the things prescribed in the Law, not just some things. Those who place themselves under some of it, must place themselves under all of it. But like I said, Christ puts our sin to death so that we are not under that curse and we may be married to him instead. There is no law against love. But the law is against sin. Therefore if man is conformed to love, he needs no law of Moses, because the law is for the unrighteous, for murderers etc. To be free from sin is to also therefore be led to Christ and free from the letter to follow the Spirit.

[wilmont]

I didn't say that the law was sin. The law not being of faith means that those who practice it are under a curse because they rely on self-righteousness rather than the promise of the Holy Spirit. That promise is by faith not by working of the Law. The Spirit is by which man is able to do the righteousness of the law by nature, not by letter. If you follow some of the law, you are cursed if you do not follow ALL the law. Christ sets us free from the curse of sin so that we may be free from the law of Moses in order to marry Christ.

Then we are all self righteous.  Or maybe ...none is as righteous as Gd.
Would it surprise you to know that many of those who follow law, do so in recogniton and love for the creator?
It sounds a bit self righteous to me to think that people that are obedient to torah because they love the creator, are not doing this out of faith or they don't have a spiritual connection because of it?

I would agree that there are people of all religous backgrounds that use works / assurance systems...but it is better than no works / assurance systems.

[Seth]

I didn't say that the law was sin. The law not being of faith means that those who practice it are under a curse because they rely on self-righteousness rather than the promise of the Holy Spirit. That promise is by faith not by working of the Law. The Spirit is by which man is able to do the righteousness of the law by nature, not by letter. If you follow some of the law, you are cursed if you do not follow ALL the law. Christ sets us free from the curse of sin so that we may be free from the law of Moses in order to marry Christ.

Then we are all self righteous.  Or maybe ...none is as righteous as Gd.
Would it surprise you to know that many of those who follow law, do so in recogniton and love for the creator?
It sounds a bit self righteous to me to think that people that are obedient to torah because they love the creator, are not doing this out of faith or they don't have a spiritual connection because of it?

None is as righteous as God. That is why God imparts that righteousness as a gift through faith. That was how Stephen was able to cry out forgiveness to the ones who were killing him AS they were killing him. That was the righteousness of Christ through Stephen. Nobody is justified by following the letter. It is impossible. The law is not of faith.

I would agree that there are people of all religous backgrounds that use works / assurance systems...but it is better than no works / assurance systems.

Works/assurance is not what I am talking about. Being delivered from sin is what I am talking about. If you desire to follow the letter, that is up to you and you are free to do so. I know I don't need to for it will only bring death.

[wilmont]

Curses precribed in Tanach?
I don't fee cursed by Gd, because Gd doesn't curse me (we do it to ourselves)?
So how does doing things that curse us eventually, not happen to Gentiles too?
By the way Jews do the law naturally too.

Cursed is the one who does not do ALL the things prescribed in the Law, not just some things. Those who place themselves under some of it, must place themselves under all of it. But like I said, Christ puts our sin to death so that we are not under that curse and we may be married to him instead. There is no law against love. But the law is against sin. Therefore if man is conformed to love, he needs no law of Moses, because the law is for the unrighteous, for murderers etc. To be free from sin is to also therefore be led to Christ and free from the letter to follow the Spirit.

Well then it might be better not to believe in anything...that way you can't be cursed by it.
I don't believe Gd curses people.

Of course man needs law.

Otherwise you would not be resisting it or arguing against it right now.

Like I said.....love doesn't put a railing on a roof top.
It sort of like the "cause of the hand", what makes your hand sin.  Its starts in the mind.
Same with love.  Starts in your mind.

Flesh is a euphanism for sin.....when the flesh is dead, so is the sin.
The only people who are freed from the law are physically dead people (Paul said this in Romans 6:7).

[wilmont]

Works/assurance is not what I am talking about. Being delivered from sin is what I am talking about. If you desire to follow the letter, that is up to you and you are free to do so. I know I don't need to for it will only bring death.


Maybe Paul is confused.

Those are the only ones "freed" from sin and the law...so if law leads to death and death frees us from sin...then everyone should be doing the law.

[Seth]

Paul was not talking about physical death in Romans 6.

He was talking about being planted together in the LIKENESS of Christ's death so that we may walk in newness of life


Romans 7
1Do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to men who know the law—that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives? 2For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. 3So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man.
4So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. 5For when we were controlled by the sinful nature,[a] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

[Seth]

Works/assurance is not what I am talking about. Being delivered from sin is what I am talking about. If you desire to follow the letter, that is up to you and you are free to do so. I know I don't need to for it will only bring death.


Maybe Paul is confused.

Those are the only ones "freed" from sin and the law...so if law leads to death and death frees us from sin...then everyone should be doing the law.

The law binds us to death in sin. But the Spirit puts death to death, so that we may live in newness of life thereby being freed from both sin and the law that bound us.

[wilmont]

No Paul was speaking about physical death, but was using remez to indicating to live as if you were physically dead and alive in a perfect state (like your christ..not like your adam).

[Seth]

No Paul was speaking about physical death, but was using remez to indicating to live as if you were physically dead and alive in a perfect state (like your christ..not like your adam).

He wasn't talking about physical death.

[wilmont]

Works/assurance is not what I am talking about. Being delivered from sin is what I am talking about. If you desire to follow the letter, that is up to you and you are free to do so. I know I don't need to for it will only bring death.


Maybe Paul is confused.

Those are the only ones "freed" from sin and the law...so if law leads to death and death frees us from sin...then everyone should be doing the law.

The law leads to death. But the Spirit puts death to death, so that we may live in newness of life thereby being freed from both sin and the law that bound us.

Thats because only physically dead people are freed from the law  and SPIRITUAL DEATH, (interpretations of law which lead a person lacking assurance).
Dead people are alive in a spiritual form (Eccl. 12:7).

Sorry about the delay my computer is real slow...dial up.

[wilmont]

Seth,
Yes he was talking about physical death, because dead people don't have physical bodies with which to transgress the law (unless Jesus wasn't an actual dead man).
Thats why there is no circumcision in heaven (for those who believe).
Alot of things written in the Bible were holdovers from pagan captivity (Egyptians circumcised as one example).
J writer (one of the oldest writers of Tanach) never mentions Abram circumcising...this was by a later author.

I do have to go...the wife wants her laptop back.

As a final do you know that Paul called faith a law in NT commentary?

[Seth]

Seth,
Yes he was taslking about physical death, because dead people don't have physical bodies with which to transgress the law (unless Jesus wasn't an actual dead man).

He was not talking about physical death, but Spiritual baptism and being set free from the flesh.

Romans 7
1Do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to men who know the law—that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives? 2For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. 3So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man.
4So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. 5For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

[wilmont]

Seth,
Yes he was taslking about physical death, because dead people don't have physical bodies with which to transgress the law (unless Jesus wasn't an actual dead man).

He was not talking about physical death, but Spiritual baptism and being set free from the flesh.

Romans 7
1Do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to men who know the law—that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives? 2For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. 3So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man.
4So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. 5For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Seth,
If a woman of the law is freed from marriage law by the physical death of her husband, then why would you not understand that a person who has physically died being freed from the whole law, because he no longer has a livign flesh body to sin with?

CONTEXT...read Romans 6:7 again.

Blessings

[Seth]

Seth,
If a woman of the law is freed from marriage law by the physical death of her husband, then why would you not understand that a person who has physically died being freed from the whole law, because he no longer has a livign flesh body to sin with?

Because it is a comparison. Paul is using physical death as an illustration of how we die to sin by grace, not by the letter. We have been released from the law so that we may serve in the new way of the Spirit not in the old way of the written letter.

Romans 6:14
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law,but under grace.

Titus 2
11For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. 12It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.

[wilmont]

Thats right.....living as if physically dead and alive in a cosmic type form (perfected spirit), can't totally happen unless your physically dead (so law still aplies in some form)...however Paul believed you could have a taste of it ahead of time by BEING THE SACRIFICE OF JESUS....(DEAD BURRIED AND RESURRECTED).
Remember I spoke of the sacrifice being us?

You made me violate the law of the wife / computer...I am going to get a beating from my wife.

[Seth]

Thats right.....living as if physically dead and alive in a cosmic type form (perfected spirit), can't totally happen unless your physically dead (so law still aplies in some form)...however Paul believed you could have a taste of it ahead of time by BEING THE SACRIFICE OF JESUS....(DEAD BURRIED AND RESURRECTED).
Remember I spoke of the sacrifice being us?

You made me violate the law of the wife / computer...I am going to get a beating from my wife.

lol..the law of the wife, now that is something I am under too.

Being sacrifice of Jesus occurs in the Spirit, not the letter. That is why Paul says that we are not under law but under grace and GRACE is that which teaches us to live Godly lives. That is why we are told not to let anyone judge us as to holy days and sabbaths. They are having a shadow of good things to come. But shadows are not the very image of the thing. The good things to come in Christ (especially concerning the Sabbath) are REST from our own works and deliverance from sin into the good works that the Spirit leads us to do.

That is how we are completely released from the law to serve God in love through the Spirit through the teaching God gives by grace and not the old way of the letter.

Romans 10
1Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

The reason that Christ is the end of the law for righteousness, is that He is the one giving his righteousness through us as a gift. The works are his own by the Spirit which is why we become the sacrifice. Again, this occurs not through the law but by the daily teaching that God gives through his Spirit by grace.

That is what Paul means when he says "For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under the law but under grace."

Death is required to be released from the law, but it ain't physical death. It's sin not having dominion over you. And that occurs by the teaching according to grace, not law. The death that is required to be released from the law is to be planted together in the likeness of Christ's death by baptism (of the spirit).

Romans 6
12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

[eaglesway]

In Romans 9, 10, 11 Paul deals with calling and election and cutting off and grafting in and predestined purposes and temporary rejection- regarding Israel. He says things like, "the natural branches will were cut off for their unbelief". Then He explains this from the perspective that, "a partial hardening has come upon Israel until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled". He says God did this in order to bring us mercy and our reciving mercy will mean eternal life for them(Romans 11:15) He finishes by saying "So ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED". He adds, For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.In case anyone has a problem with this Paul finishes with the words

Rom 11:32-36    (33)  Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!  (34)  "Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?"  (35)  "Who has ever given to God, that God should repay him?"  (36)  For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen.

You see Chosen, you read, "cut off" and you hear "eternal torment, but the english word- damnation/condemnation translated to Greek is really "passing sentence" and in english- destruction is really "ruin, waste, perdition". Jesus speaks of the cutting down of trees and the washing away of houses built on sand and being delivered over to the judge by the bailiff, and many stripes and few stripes. Paul speaks works of wood hay and stubble being burned in the fire caused by "the day" for "the day shall reveal it" 1Cor 2:13-15. There are many stripes and few stripes and you will not get out till you pay the last penny. You write as if all those verses you listed somehow connect to the idea of eternal torment- that is because you are looking through a red glass, you only see red..... you need the veil taken away. Please read these next passages with an objective view.

Col 1:16-21  For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.  (17)  He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.  (18)  And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.  (19)  For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,  (20)  and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. (21)  Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior, now he has reconciled...

God has shut up all in disobedience in order to have mercy on ALL. ALL come through MERCY. THE END GAME IS THAT EVERYTHING HE CREATED WILL BE RECONCILED THROUGH THE BLOOD OF THE CROSS. Nothing, having annihilated or in eternal torment can be reconciled.

Eph 1:9-10  He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him  (10)  with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.

This summing up of all things into one under the headship of Christ is the mystery of the gospel and it is AN ADMINISTRATION SUITABLE TO THE FULNESS OF TIMES. A plan executed over several ages.

1Co 15:22-25  For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.  (23)  But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,  (24)  then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.  (25)  For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
1Co 15:28  When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.


We who were the first to trust in Christ have received the reconciliation, and have been judged already through His death. Others will come to bow the knee and confess with the tongue in the process of the enemies being made subject.
Eph 1:11-12  In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:  (12)  That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Eph 2:7  That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Not a lot is given about the ages to come, but we will reign with Him AS PRIESTS (teaching men, reconciling men unto God, tearing down evry stronghold  and fortress that exalts itself against the true knowledge of God(this is fire). Until God abolishes all rule power and authority because God is over all in all and through all, in other words ALL CREATION UNIFIED IN HARMONY. That is the true knowledge, God wants all men reconciled, and "Works all things after the counsel of His will".(also Ephesians 1) That is why the whole creation groans eagerly awaiting the revelation of the sons of God who wilparticipate with God in the SETTING FREE of creation into the glorious liberty of the sons of God(Romans 8:19-22)

1Jn 2:2  and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Joh 1:29  The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

God does not love or forgive His enemies if He annihlates them or torments them forever. If He deals with men through "the hour of trial that is to come upon all those who dwell upon the face of the earth" (excusing only the overcomers from that trial, the first resurrection priesthood), then He reproves men in order to restore them. So to "sum up"- I have one question to ask you - How do you explain Ephesians 1:1-12 and Colossians 1:15-23 and
1 Corinthians 15:22-25. What does the reconciliation of "all things" mean? What does the "summing up of all things under one head, Christ" mean? How will God be over all in all and through all if much of His creation is destroyed from existence or in torment. How are all things "from Him, through Him and To him"?

[wilmont]

Loving someone does not put a railing on their roof.
Following the spirit of this law, to some, might mean.....a house which is less than 4 cubits square is exempt from a railing (a Halacha)....or....I put a railing up, but it is 6" high.

If Christians were following the spirit / love of the law as you say, they would be exempt from building codes.  There would be no need for them.

Man has always been under Gd's grace or provision (love and forgiveness), since the beginning (alot of the NT is speaking about oral interpretive law).

[wilmont]

Jesus does not meet the requirements of a levitical sacrifice, its not biblical.
Especially  John the B, since he most likely was a Mandeaan who considered blood sacrifice a sin.