2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 Are these people going to be saved?

[wilmont]

Blessings.
I too believe not all people are saved, but that does not mean all people are not made perfect or perfected...although I believe it is possible that a person to so debase their soul that they can be recycled.

Regardless of whether a person is a Christian, Jew, Hindu etc., not all have LIFE or Know Gd.

Also I believe that Jesus believed and taught an "ongoing resurrection" of the dead,   a very old form of tikkun olam; repairing the world through the resurrection of righteous ones.

[Seth]

Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ....

I read this passage (at this moment in time) like this...

Paul is talking about faith and works, and he's saying that the man who 'does not work' but 'has' faith in God...His faith is credited to him as righteous rather than his works.  Paul then goes on to give lots of examples of faith.  I see the ungodly in this passage as anyone at all who 'believes or trusts' in God to save them through their faith in him.
But again, it brings up the subject of who believes.  If the ungodly doesn't believe in him who justifies the ungodly, will they be justified at all?

Actually it doesn't say "rather than his works." Faith is righteousness and them who have it, that faith is credited to them for the righteousness that it is. Contextually, the works that do not justify man that Paul is referring to are works of the Law of Moses. But the righteousness that is of the law is love. So rather than working the Law of Moses, we are to have faith and upon faith we access grace which teaches us to live Godly lives in this present age. We recieve the empowerment to do good works by that Spirit and those works are what is acceptable to God. As Paul said:

Romans 2:10-15
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God.

For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

The teaching of Paul is clearly stating the same thing as James: anyone with GENUINE faith will BY NATURE do the righteousness that is in the law, even though they do not have the law. Same thing happened with Abraham. Abraham didn't have the law of Moses, but by his nature he was righteous by the good works of faith he did for God, because his faith was genuine. Genuine faith and good works are not separate.

In our case, the promise to Abraham, being the Holy Spirit is that which changes our nature to WANT to do good. That is the empowerment that justifies man. That is how we are made righteous by faith.

[jesushandsarekindhands]

Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ....

I read this passage (at this moment in time) like this...

Paul is talking about faith and works, and he's saying that the man who 'does not work' but 'has' faith in God...His faith is credited to him as righteous rather than his works.  Paul then goes on to give lots of examples of faith.  I see the ungodly in this passage as anyone at all who 'believes or trusts' in God to save them through their faith in him.
But again, it brings up the subject of who believes.  If the ungodly doesn't believe in him who justifies the ungodly, will they be justified at all?

Actually it doesn't say "rather than his works." Faith is righteousness and them who have it, that faith is credited to them for the righteousness that it is. Contextually, the works that do not justify man that Paul is referring to are works of the Law of Moses. But the righteousness that is of the law is love. So rather than working the Law of Moses, we are to have faith and upon faith we access grace which teaches us to live Godly lives in this present age. We recieve the empowerment to do good works by that Spirit and those works are what is acceptable to God. As Paul said:

Romans 2:10-15
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God.

For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

The teaching of Paul is clearly stating the same thing as James: anyone with GENUINE faith will BY NATURE do the righteousness that is in the law, even though they do not have the law. Same thing happened with Abraham. Abraham didn't have the law of Moses, but by his nature he was righteous by the good works of faith he did for God, because his faith was genuine. Genuine faith and good works are not separate.

In our case, the promise to Abraham, being the Holy Spirit is that which changes our nature to WANT to do good. That is the empowerment that justifies man. That is how we are made righteous by faith.

Seth it took me a while to get that to sink in, but ok I understand now.

Another question though...If the Gentiles know the law because its written in their hearts, how is it that I haven't met a single person yet who would condone rape or any of the other things horrible things condoned by the law done in the Old testament but rather their conscience tells them...rape is wrong...Slavery is wrong etc etc?

[Seth]

We are talking about the righteousness of the law, which is love, not the letter of the law. Romans 8 shows us that by Christ we are able to fulfill the righteousness that is of the law. This is why living by the Spirit is distinguishable from living by the letter. Does that make sense? This is why Jesus said: "You have heard it said eye for an eye, but I say resist not evil, yet repay evil with good" (paraphrase). Jesus is setting aside the letter there, and talking about love which fulfills all the law.

[wilmont]

Yes.
I believe Jesus and his followers originally taught presumption of guilt wihin the law (which is why it was necessary for and oral interpretation).
If it is sin to you it is not of faith.

What must one do to be assured that Gd loves and forgives them?
Is it contained in magical properties in blood (animal or man), or in special water, or in a certain interpretation or understanding of Torah?

Depending on where a person is determines how or what assurance system they need.

Since Gds Grace / love and forgiveness is all emcompassing, does that mean we intentionally transgress so it is revealed more?
Certainly not, because in so doing I will loose my assurance of his love and forgiveness, because  my conscience will continue to bear witness to my sin.

[jesushandsarekindhands]

We are talking about the righteousness of the law, which is love, not the letter of the law. Romans 8 shows us that by Christ we are able to fulfill the righteousness that is of the law. This is why living by the Spirit is distinguishable from living by the letter. Does that make sense? This is why Jesus said: "You have heard it said eye for an eye, but I say resist not evil, yet repay evil with good" (paraphrase). Jesus is setting aside the letter there, and talking about love which fulfills all the law.

Yeh that does make sense to me, surprisingly enough.

[chuckt]

Verse 10 "And in all deception of the unrighteousness among the ones perishing, because they did not receive the love of the truth for them to be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send to them a supernatural working of deception, for them to believe the lie, 12 so that they shall be judged, all the ones not having believed the truth, but the ones having delighted in unrighteousness."

What do you believe these scriptures are teaching? According to 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 do these unrighteous people believe the love of the truth (Jesus) for them to go to heaven?

what is THE LIE???

the lie is that God tortures souls for all eternity,((( unrighteous judgment ))) and who believes this lie?

well thats what i beleive now, unless someone can change my mind.

peace
chuckt

[Seth]

We are talking about the righteousness of the law, which is love, not the letter of the law. Romans 8 shows us that by Christ we are able to fulfill the righteousness that is of the law. This is why living by the Spirit is distinguishable from living by the letter. Does that make sense? This is why Jesus said: "You have heard it said eye for an eye, but I say resist not evil, yet repay evil with good" (paraphrase). Jesus is setting aside the letter there, and talking about love which fulfills all the law.

Yeh that does make sense to me, surprisingly enough.

So essentially, regarding the issues you brought up concerning rape and murder statutes contained in Moses, it is more important that we consult the living Christ within us, rather than the letter of Moses which accuses us. If the Spirit guides us, it will divide the righteousness of the law from the letter that once veiled Christ, so that we will do all things according to love and concern for all people (ie like loving our neighbor, honoring our parents, the weightier matters). According to Paul we would do those things BY NATURE, not by letter, having been changed by the Spirit, having not the law to be under. It was hard for me to understand all this but it does get clearer as you go along with the Lord.

[Seth]

I think this thread might be of some help toward further explanation: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=6805.0

[jesushandsarekindhands]

We are talking about the righteousness of the law, which is love, not the letter of the law. Romans 8 shows us that by Christ we are able to fulfill the righteousness that is of the law. This is why living by the Spirit is distinguishable from living by the letter. Does that make sense? This is why Jesus said: "You have heard it said eye for an eye, but I say resist not evil, yet repay evil with good" (paraphrase). Jesus is setting aside the letter there, and talking about love which fulfills all the law.

Yeh that does make sense to me, surprisingly enough.

So essentially, regarding the issues you brought up concerning rape and murder statutes contained in Moses, it is more important that we consult the living Christ within us, rather than the letter of Moses which accuses us. If the Spirit guides us, it will divide the righteousness of the law from the letter that once veiled Christ, so that we will do all things according to love and concern for all people (ie like loving our neighbor, honoring our parents, the weightier matters). According to Paul we would do those things BY NATURE, not by letter, having been changed by the Spirit, having not the law to be under. It was hard for me to understand all this but it does get clearer as you go along with the Lord.

Actually the more ive looked into all this stuff, the more confused Ive got to be honest.

[Seth]

The confusion for me, I realized later, was partly in not understanding the difference between "good works" and "works of the law." Understanding that difference was an eye-opener, and many things began to fall in place. Also a correct understanding of grace helped me.

I was always taught: faith good, works bad. But what kind of works? They never distinguished that, and so the NT became confusing seeming to preach faith then stress works, then seem to deny works. But again, what kind of works? That's why I started that thread.

[jesushandsarekindhands]

The confusion for me, I realized later, was partly in not understanding the difference between "good works" and "works of the law." Understanding that difference was an eye-opener, and many things began to fall in place. Also a correct understanding of grace helped me.

I was always taught: faith good, works bad. But what kind of works? They never distinguished that, and so the NT became confusing seeming to preach faith then stress works, then seem to deny works. But again, what kind of works? That's why I started that thread.

It's not easy sometimes Seth, thanks for all your input on this.

[Seth]

Anytime.  :HeartThrob:

[wilmont]

Interesting.

There is sometimes confusion over a few things concerning righteousness and the law.
Righteousness of the law is through loving obedience to Gd (perfection).
In other words, if you asked many Christians or Jews why they are obedient, you might be surprised by the answers.  Obedience is in recognition of the creator (his love and forgiveness), not to get or earn his affections / love and forgiveness. 

Jesus was dealing mostly with Oral interpretation of the Torah which was non-binding to a degree at this time  (John 7:22-23  speaks of a halacha about suspending of sabbath for circumcison law,  as one example).
You can see much argumentation on this in NT commentary.  Differing sects had differing interpretations of law of Moses (written)...everything from sacrifices, to cleansing of hands.  Some sects even believed Torah interpretation was perverted (See Jer. 8).
I  think Jesus would conclude that perfection was the righteousness of the law, he would say it was ultimate perfection, and with that is always a course of conduct virtue of the mind (see Prov. 5:17 as one example).
The prophets would agree that the knowing Gd (defined as LIFE) is man's true perfection.
Jesus taught that we should all strive to imitate Gd's actions, which are loving-kindness, judgment and righteousness ( do love in righteousness).

Example; Micah 6:6-7;

"Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, with myriad streams of oil? Shall I give my first-born for my crime, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
You have been told, O man, what is good, and what the LORD requires of you: Only to do the right and to love goodness, and to walk humbly with your God "


Our own morals or virtues are our individual part of perfection to a perfect love, whereas doing love in righteousness is a societal thing.

Now I know I sometimes am a very deep thinker, and not the best at explaining these things, but follow closely what the commentator says in 1 John 4:18;

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment of the sinful nature , and the one who fears is not perfected in love."

If a person fears, because of UNINTENTIONAL transgression of the law, they will always believe and have a Gd which punishes them for transgressions that they may have very little control over.  They will not experience perfection / KNOW Gd until they physically die.  They DON'T KNOW THE TRUE GD OF LOVE AND FORGIVENESS (Gospel).

So the basic message Jesus tried to get out was;
Perfect love (Gd Loves you and Forgives your transgression) gets rid of the fear.

[jesushandsarekindhands]

Interesting.

There is sometimes confusion over a few things concerning righteousness and the law.
Righteousness of the law is through loving obedience to Gd (perfection).
In other words, if you asked many Christians or Jews why they are obedient, you might be surprised by the answers.  Obedience is in recognition of the creator (his love and forgiveness), not to get or earn his affections / love and forgiveness. 

Jesus was dealing mostly with Oral interpretation of the Torah which was non-binding to a degree at this time  (John 7:22-23  speaks of a halacha about suspending of sabbath for circumcison law,  as one example).
You can see much argumentation on this in NT commentary.  Differing sects had differing interpretations of law of Moses (written)...everything from sacrifices, to cleansing of hands.  Some sects even believed Torah interpretation was perverted (See Jer. 8).
I  think Jesus would conclude that perfection was the righteousness of the law, he would say it was ultimate perfection, and with that is always a course of conduct virtue of the mind (see Prov. 5:17 as one example).
The prophets would agree that the knowing Gd (defined as LIFE) is man's true perfection.
Jesus taught that we should all strive to imitate Gd's actions, which are loving-kindness, judgment and righteousness ( do love in righteousness).

Example; Micah 6:6-7;



Our own morals or virtues are our individual part of perfection to a perfect love, whereas doing love in righteousness is a societal thing.

Now I know I sometimes am a very deep thinker, and not the best at explaining these things, but follow closely what the commentator says in 1 John 4:18;

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment of the sinful nature , and the one who fears is not perfected in love."

If a person fears, because of UNINTENTIONAL transgression of the law, they will always believe and have a Gd which punishes them for transgressions that they may have very little control over.  They will not experience perfection / KNOW Gd until they physically die.  They DON'T KNOW THE TRUE GD OF LOVE AND FORGIVENESS (Gospel).

So the basic message Jesus tried to get out was;
Perfect love (Gd Loves you and Forgives your transgression) gets rid of the fear.

Interesting.

There is sometimes confusion over a few things concerning righteousness and the law.
Righteousness of the law is through loving obedience to Gd (perfection).
In other words, if you asked many Christians or Jews why they are obedient, you might be surprised by the answers.  Obedience is in recognition of the creator (his love and forgiveness), not to get or earn his affections / love and forgiveness. 

Jesus was dealing mostly with Oral interpretation of the Torah which was non-binding to a degree at this time  (John 7:22-23  speaks of a halacha about suspending of sabbath for circumcison law,  as one example).
You can see much argumentation on this in NT commentary.  Differing sects had differing interpretations of law of Moses (written)...everything from sacrifices, to cleansing of hands.  Some sects even believed Torah interpretation was perverted (See Jer. 8).
I  think Jesus would conclude that perfection was the righteousness of the law, he would say it was ultimate perfection, and with that is always a course of conduct virtue of the mind (see Prov. 5:17 as one example).
The prophets would agree that the knowing Gd (defined as LIFE) is man's true perfection.
Jesus taught that we should all strive to imitate Gd's actions, which are loving-kindness, judgment and righteousness ( do love in righteousness).

Example; Micah 6:6-7;

"Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, with myriad streams of oil? Shall I give my first-born for my crime, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
You have been told, O man, what is good, and what the LORD requires of you: Only to do the right and to love goodness, and to walk humbly with your God "


Our own morals or virtues are our individual part of perfection to a perfect love, whereas doing love in righteousness is a societal thing.

Now I know I sometimes am a very deep thinker, and not the best at explaining these things, but follow closely what the commentator says in 1 John 4:18;

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment of the sinful nature , and the one who fears is not perfected in love."

If a person fears, because of UNINTENTIONAL transgression of the law, they will always believe and have a Gd which punishes them for transgressions that they may have very little control over.  They will not experience perfection / KNOW Gd until they physically die.  They DON'T KNOW THE TRUE GD OF LOVE AND FORGIVENESS (Gospel).

So the basic message Jesus tried to get out was;
Perfect love (Gd Loves you and Forgives your transgression) gets rid of the fear.

I have a question about what God said here
"Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, with myriad streams of oil? Shall I give my first-born for my crime, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
You have been told, O man, what is good, and what the LORD requires of you: Only to do the right and to love goodness, and to walk humbly with your God.

My question is this...Why did God ask for blood sacrafice in the first place if it didnt even please him to start with?

[Seth]

The way I read that sentence about being perfected in love is this: If you fear, it shows that you have not been perfected in love. The one who walks in love does not need to fear punishment of the sinful nature, because they have been perfected. However the one who walks in disobedience...God assures that indeed he will chastise those he says are his sons.

Hebrews 12:11
Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

The "nevertheless afterward" part is when we need not undergo "grievous chastening" because the grace of God which bringeth salvation by chastening us to live Godly lives has then done its work.

[Seth]

My question is this...Why did God ask for blood sacrafice in the first place if it didnt even please him to start with?

The Bible says that the law brings the knowledge of sin. By offering blood sacrifices, man is reminded of his sin and then becomes aware of it. Then the law doer desires a savior. Then Christ comes with his Spirit (remember that we are saved by his life per Romans 5) to put the body of death TO death and finally deliver us. That is what it means that the Law is a schoolteacher to bring us to Christ.

[wilmont]

Maybe that wasn't a very good post?

How about this.

Believing or knowing Gds love and forgiveness (saved),  does not cancel the laws demand for righteousness, only the laws curse (for lack of better term).

Jesus saving knowledge teaching;

If you don't want condemnation then don't transgress so much.

[jesushandsarekindhands]

My question is this...Why did God ask for blood sacrafice in the first place if it didnt even please him to start with?

The Bible says that the law brings the knowledge of sin. By offering blood sacrifices, man is reminded of his sin and then becomes aware of it. Then the law doer desires a savior. Then Christ comes with his Spirit (remember that we are saved by his life per Romans 5) to put the body of death TO death and finally deliver us. That is what it means that the Law is a schoolteacher to bring us to Christ.

Ok Seth thanks again.

[Seth]

Wilmont, as I see things, forgiveness of sin is the beginning, but salvation FROM sin is the end. That is where the chastening comes from. Forgiveness of sin is in the doing away of the Law which was man's accuser. However, as Paul said that those who sin without the law, will also perish without it. They will still perish and perishing is bad. So getting the accuser out of the way is only the beginning.

That is why I don't equate forgiveness of sin with salvation itself. In Romans 5 Paul says "having been reconciled how much more so shall we be saved...by his life"

It is by Christ's resurrected life (Spirit) that we are saved from sin daily, and that through chastisement, which AFTERward yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness.

[wilmont]

My question is this...Why did God ask for blood sacrafice in the first place if it didnt even please him to start with?

The Bible says that the law brings the knowledge of sin. By offering blood sacrifices, man is reminded of his sin and then becomes aware of it. Then the law doer desires a savior. Then Christ comes with his Spirit (remember that we are saved by his life per Romans 5) to put the body of death TO death and finally deliver us. That is what it means that the Law is a schoolteacher to bring us to Christ.

I do not believe that blood sacrifices were given by Gd to remind man of his sin; our guilt / conscience reminds us of our sin, (except Anointed priest function which showed Israel that no matter how much they tried they still sinned in ignorance).
Sacrifices were given to wean Israel away from the sacrificial system of the nations which Gd was setting them apart from.
They could not do it...so he gave them a system by they could do this until the time of perfect / physical death (when they would understand it was not necessary).
Sacrifices are/were really a man trying to be in this state of perfect by killing the sinful nature (flesh) and fellowshipping with Gd closer.
They were actually the sacrifice through a substitute.
Followers believed they were really supposed to be in substitute Jesus, to be as if dead, burried and resurrected in a perfect state.

Purpose of law;
Reveal sin
Removal of guilt
Prevention of sin

[wilmont]

Wilmont, as I see things, forgiveness of sin is the beginning, but salvation FROM sin is the end. That is where the chastening comes from. Forgiveness of sin is in the doing away of the Law which was man's accuser. However, as Paul said that those who sin without the law, will also perish without it. They will still perish and perishing is bad. So getting the accuser out of the way is only the beginning.

That is why I don't equate forgiveness of sin with salvation itself. In Romans 5 Paul says "having been reconciled how much more so shall we be saved...by his life"

It is by Christ's resurrected life (Spirit) that we are saved from sin daily, and that through chastisement, which AFTERward yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness.

I believe similar to that.
In a metaphorical sense (no man can really die for another mans sin..and we all die).
Salvation is a WAY of LIFE (knowing Gd).
Its day to day.
Less sin in your life = more fellowship with Gd.
When you enter into a Holy Covenant / Spirit,  with Gd, you don't want to put the marriage away.

[Seth]

The sacrifices were for the knowledge of sin. Hebrews 9 shows us that the cleansing was ceremonial, not actual.

Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin

It is by the Spirit, the life of Christ that man is saved from Sin. That is what the Law was not able to do. The Law was able to bring the knowledge of sin, but not deliverance from it, which is why the Law is a schoolteacher to lead us to Christ, and it is why the Law is not for a righteous man but for the ungodly.

However, it is by the Spirit that salvation from sin is given.

[Seth]

Wilmont, as I see things, forgiveness of sin is the beginning, but salvation FROM sin is the end. That is where the chastening comes from. Forgiveness of sin is in the doing away of the Law which was man's accuser. However, as Paul said that those who sin without the law, will also perish without it. They will still perish and perishing is bad. So getting the accuser out of the way is only the beginning.

That is why I don't equate forgiveness of sin with salvation itself. In Romans 5 Paul says "having been reconciled how much more so shall we be saved...by his life"

It is by Christ's resurrected life (Spirit) that we are saved from sin daily, and that through chastisement, which AFTERward yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness.

I believe similar to that.
In a metaphorical sense (no man can really die for another mans sin..and we all die).
Salvation is a WAY of LIFE (knowing Gd).
Its day to day.
Less sin in your life = more fellowship with Gd.
When you enter into a Holy Covenant / Spirit,  with Gd, you don't want to put the marriage away.

Amen, salvation is a way of life.  :thumbsup:

[wilmont]

The sacrifices were for the knowledge of sin. Hebrews 9 shows us that the cleansing was ceremonial, not actual.

Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin

It is by the Spirit, the life of Christ that man is saved from Sin. That is what the Law was not able to do. The Law was able to bring the knowledge of sin, but not deliverance from it, which is why the Law is a schoolteacher to lead us to Christ, and it is why the Law is not for a righteous man but for the ungodly.

However, it is by the Spirit that salvation from sin is given.

Levitical sacrifices were not for knowledge of sin.
Leviticus 5 (as one example) that those that knew they already transgressed brought forth a sacrifice.
They were for Atonement / Assurance (guilt removal).
Not all Jewish sects believed in blood sacrifice, some (Eseenes, Mandeanns as examples) made dough efigies, or in the case of Mandeanns (John The B) consideed blood sacrifice a sin, many were vegetarians.

Jer. 7:22;

In speaking to your fathers on the day I brought them out of the land of Egypt, I gave them no command concerning holocaust or sacrifice

Isa. 1:11-12;

What care I for the number of your sacrifices? says the LORD. I have had enough of whole-burnt rams and fat of fatlings; In the blood of calves, lambs and goats I find no pleasure. 
When you come in to visit me, who asks these things of you (literally from your hands)?

It was Gd's wish that his people could leave the sacrifices of the nations behind, but they could not simply believe in the same Gospel Jesus preached.....just like people don't believe it today.  Jesus died not because Gd needs a sacrifice, but because man rejects his free love and forgiveness.