Heavenly Destiny ???

[scotr]

I've been doing some reading over at the Pristine Faith Restoration Society .... mostly articles by Tim Warner who now pastors the Oasis Christian Center in Florida.  They hold that our destiny is not heavenly.  But that we are to rule and reign with Christ here in the new earth for a thousand years and then God will take up residence in the new earth in the heavenly Jerusalem that comes down to earth.

They of course use Revelation and parallel passages in Isaiah and other OT books that speak of the ever lasting Kingdom of the Messiah on earth.  They state that the whole heavenly destiny thing is a hold over from gnosticism promulgated by Augustine.  Gnosticism was of the Greeks as they could not accept the idea of the flesh becoming resurrected.  They never really believed that Jesus was God in the flesh. 

Jesus does say that the meek shall inherit the earth.

PS:  They are strong literalists and though accept that much language in Revelation is figurative they believe that the literal grammatical interpretation must be applied wherever possible.  They are futurists.  They are not calvinists.  They are post-tribulationists as to the timing of the resurrection and do not believe in a 'rapture' prior to or during the Great Tribulation.

Any thoughts?  Thanks,

scot

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: In Noah's day only the wicked 'left' the earth. The righteous were RAISED UP above the water's of the judgment to the flesh, and never left it.

Additionally, the High Priest who went into the Holy of Holies (7th day in type, 1000 'year' reign) went in there barefoot, ie. representative of a people who are going to walk in heaven, but still have their feet on earth, just as our firstborn of MANY BRETHREN did. Blessings...

[Raggedy Anne]

In Noah's day only the wicked 'left' the earth. The righteous were RAISED UP above the water's of the judgment to the flesh, and never left it.

That is something my mother often mentioned to me.  One thing she and I could agree on about the bible was that it was the wicked that would be removed.  There was a lot of stuff we did not see eye to eye on concerning the faith, but we both agreed we didn't see any magic rapture in the scriptures with people flying through the air, shoes dropping off behind them  :laughing7:  It tickles me some of the things I've read like that - entire books written about such notions.

[sparrow]

Jesus does say that the meek shall inherit the earth.

I love this earth.
I don't want to leave.
This world, yes.
This earth? NO.
Haven't even scratched the surface of all of it's majesty.

Father, please make me as meek as possible...

[Taffy]

Heaven and earth shall Pass away But NOt my WORDS Math 13 ..

For mine the GOOD earth ( Body) we inherit is HIM, the word In Math 5 speak oNly of One kind..those who are HIS and all Inherit HIM...there really not different folk with certain Traits

For this to happen Our Bodies[ the wicked\Darkness] must perish , No Place in Good Earth for the wicked

Luk 8:8   And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear  :icon_flower:

[sparrow]

actual glorified bodies though, on an actual new earth... eh?

lions lying next to lambs...
and all that?
figurative and literal?
or just figurative?

what say you good people?

And please, if you good people would not yell at me, I'd appreciate it. :mblush: :HeartThrob:
I'm just asking a question. Just wondering what folks are thinking.
Wondering if folks have the same hopes within, that I have...
I'm just human.

[Taffy]

Hi Sparrow
Not sure if your making comment on Me post..But for sure my comments were to the initiator of the thread intwined with what Card Added :icon_flower:

My Caps Emphasise On High points( always posted that way)   there not meant to Shout ,sorry Girl :icon_flower:

The New Earth\ New Heavens for mine IS the NC...lots of NEW in the New Sparrow..New minds, New Hearts , New Jerusalem New Tongues etc..just the way the scriptures read for me  :HeartThrob:

No one is Good, not after the flesh , we abide in the One who IS. :icon_flower:
Glorified , yes plz Sparrow, Had enough of this Mortal shell.. :icon_flower:

[sparrow]

Hi Sparrow
Not sure if your making comment on Me post..But for sure my comments were to the initiator of the thread intwined with what Card Added :icon_flower:

My Caps Emphasise On High points( always posted that way)   there not meant to Shout ,sorry Girl :icon_flower:

The New Earth\ New Heavens for mine IS the NC...lots of NEW in the New Sparrow..New minds, New Hearts , New Jerusalem New Tongues etc..just the way the scriptures read for me  :HeartThrob:

No one is Good, not after the flesh , we abide in the One who IS. :icon_flower:
Glorified , yes plz Sparrow, Had enough of this Mortal shell.. :icon_flower:

Oh no, not at all! I didn't think you were shouting at me Taffy!!! Sorry, I guess my words seemed a bit strange.  :laughing7:

thanks for sharing what you shared.  :HeartThrob:
I just like to pick people's brains.

[Taffy]

Oh no, not at all! I didn't think you were shouting at me Taffy!!! Sorry, I guess my words seemed a bit strange. 

thanks for sharing what you shared.   
I just like to pick people's brains.

He he :icon_flower:
No worries Sparrow TY for explaining :HeartThrob:

:icon_flower:

[scotr]

Wow,  the site is just barely working for me this afternoon and this evening.  Took five minutes to get to the reply page.

There's an awful lot of scripture about God's promises to Israel and their everlasting nature.  The Kingdom will have no end.  I am wary of dismissing all by simply tossing allegorical interpretation at the Word.

As to flesh being wicked/darkness that sounds like straight out gnosticism to me.  That was the heart and soul of Greek philosophy.  Interesting that the whole heavenly destiny idea came from the same place and was the main thing the Reformation kept in when tossing most of the errors of the Roman church.

Christ was sinless.  He lived in a body.  He resurrected in a body.  A body that could eat fish and be touched and handled.  We are told by Paul that we shall be like him in our new form.  How can you make that go away with allegory or figurative language?

Christ meant something specific when he said the meek shall inherit the earth.  This was not a figurative statement.  Neither was what John says about the New Jerusalem.  We are even given its physical measurements.

[chuckt]

As to flesh being wicked/darkness that sounds like straight out gnosticism to me

greetings.

Rom 7:24   O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body (( sōma )))
of this death?  

Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not. 

Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life

Jer 17:9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it? 


The flesh body wars against the spirit body, when we speak of the flesh body, we speak NOT of the epidermis, the epidermis is a wonderfull thing, the ""flesh"" acts as the body's major barrier against an inhospitable environment.

The tabernacle you dwell in  and of itself is NOT wicked, but it IS subjected to vanity, and it IS dying.

The DUST we dwell in was NEVER ment to live forever, the DUST must be ground to powder and mixed with living water made a new lump!


peace and grace
chuckt

[Doug]

There's an awful lot of scripture about God's promises to Israel and their everlasting nature.  The Kingdom will have no end.  I am wary of dismissing all by simply tossing allegorical interpretation at the Word.

The "rest" promised to the church is indeed everlasting. [Heb. 3:18, 4:1, 3, 5] The promised land and the history of ancient Israel, described in the OT, were intended for our examples, Paul says in 1 Cor. 10:11.

The prophets found spiritual significance in many aspects of the land that Israel was promised as a possession.

Among the things the prophets used symbolically in their messages are rivers, both real and imaginary; they include the Jordan River [Psa. 114:3], the Euphrates [Rev. 9:14, 16:12], and the Nile [Gen. 15:18]; an imaginary river is the stream of living water that flows from Jerusalem in Zech. 14:8, and from the temple in Ezek. 47:7-9, and Joel 3:18. Christians have traditionally understood this to represent the Spirit of God and the Gospel going to the world from the church.

Also used symbolically are mountains, such as Sinai [Gal. 4:24], the Mount of Olives [Zech. 14:4], Zion [Heb. 12:22; Rev. 14:1]; and a figurative mountain that fills the earth in Dan. 2:35; hills; deserts, the wilderness, where the Israelites wandered for 40 years, was typical of the church's experience in the world [1 Cor. 10:11; Rev. 12:6, 14].

Also valleys, such as Gehenna, Meddigo, [Rev. 16:16] and the figurative valley formed in the Mount of Olives, when it is cleaved in the midst [Zech. 14:4]; seas; the Red Sea, [1 Cor. 10:2] the Dead Sea which becomes healed by the water from the temple [Ezek 47:8]; cities; Jerusalem [Heb. 12:22], Sodom, [Rev. 11:8] Jericho [Heb. 11:30], Babylon [Isa. 48:20; Jer. 51:6; Rev. 14:8; 16:19; 17:2; 18:2, 10, 21]; even neighboring countries are significant symbols, such as Egypt [Rev. 11:8], and Edom [Ezek. 25:12-14; Joel 3:19].

Besides these, the scriptures show that major events in Israel's history are significant in prophecy, providing types and figures for the church, including their bondage in Egypt [Jude 1:5; Rev. 11:8], the exodus [Acts 7:36]; their sojourn in the wilderness [1 Cor. 10:11]; wars, including the battles of the Israelites against the Canaanite nations under Joshua and others; the reign of David [1 Chr. 18:14], the apostasy of Israel under Ahab and Jezebel; the drought in the days of Elijah [Jam. 5:17]; a locust plague, [Joel 1-2]; earthquakes, [Zech. 14:5]; the exile in Babylon [Jer. 29:10]; the Jews' return from exile [Zech. 1:16]; the construction of the temple [Hag. 1:8]; the hellenization implemented by Antiochus IV, outlined in the prophecies of Daniel. All the above were the subjects of prophecies intended for the church.

Individuals are significant symbols in prophecy too; Abraham and Sarah [Rom. 4:16, Gal. 4:26], Hagar [Gal. 4:24], Isaac [Gal. 4:28], Jacob and his family [Rev. 7:5-8], Joseph [Heb. 11:22], Moses [John 1:17], Pharaoh, Joshua [Heb. 4:8], David, [Ezek. 34:23, 37:24; Hos. 3:5; Amos 9:11 Zech. 12:8], Elijah [Mal. 4:5], Jonah [Matt. 16:4], Cyrus [Isa. 44:28], Zerubbabel [Zech. 4:9].

There was much in the design of the tabernacle, and the details of the temple service that was typical of things in the gospel. Animals that are symbolic in prophecy include sheep, goat, horse, mule, ass, camel, ox, lion, bear, leopard, snake, locust, fish, eagle, dove. Plants mentioned in prophecy are the olive, fig, and cedar trees, grape vine, wheat. Foods such as manna, bread, wine, and milk are types. Incense is a type.

Heavenly bodies are symbolic too; the sun, moon, stars are types. Day and night, and the seasons are also typical. The annual holy days are related to the spring and harvest seasons. Days, years, months, and multiples of years are also figures and symbols. Clouds, rain, hail, snow, wind, light and dark, lamps, candles, oil, water, and gold, silver, brass, iron, clay, wood, rock, earth, pearls, precious stones, clothes, armor, weapons, such as swords, are all types and symbols in prophecy.

Christ meant something specific when he said the meek shall inherit the earth.  This was not a figurative statement.  Neither was what John says about the New Jerusalem.  We are even given its physical measurements.

Surely you don't consider those measurements to be literal, do you? 

Revelation 21:7
He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Doug

[Nathan]

I think this is where things get difficult for us when trying to comprehend Spiritual Truth with our natural understanding.  we tend to mix spirit with flesh more than we realize.  John's little epistles speak of the fact that God IS light.  And IN Him there is no shadow of turning.  For me, when my conclusions evoke filtered light, there is something not quite in place. 

When I try to measure Scripture's spiritual intent with literal applications, I'm filtering the pureness of light.  Minds can not conceive how things are going to be.  It can only be revealed through spiritual means.  And for me, that's where the signs and symbols come in.  They point "to" the truth, but only the spirit can use those signs to reveal what that truth is.

So to try to fit this natural realm/earth into a spiritual reality is amusing at best, and misleading at worst.  God leaves us patterns to reveal his nature.  The fact that he didn't remove Noah from the earth while he dealt with the carnality "of" the earth is extremely significant.  Same with Israel's bondage in Egypt.  God didn't remove Israel first, "then" send the plagues, he protected them in the midst of the plagues. 

I, again, believe that this earth will return to it's original state, I don't know the details of "how" that will happen, and I could very well be wrong in my own assessment.  But the bigger issue with me is, "when" these things happen, the realm we live in now, will not be the same realm we'll spend our time in "then".  This is not the spirit realm.  This realm is as the Old Covenant, it's temporary.  I am not flesh first with spirit inserted later.  I am first a spirit, and I've been assigned to this temporary body in this vapor of time. 

Spirit is not bound by natural laws of time or decay.  Yes, Jesus resurrected body ate natural fish.  But for me, that was because his love is for spirit beings in natural bodies.  When we make the same transformation into resurrected bodies, our abode will no longer be in this natural realm . . .so eating natural fish won't be necessary.

[WhiteWings]

The fact that he didn't remove Noah from the earth while he dealt with the carnality "of" the earth is extremely significant.  Same with Israel's bondage in Egypt.  God didn't remove Israel first, "then" send the plagues, he protected them in the midst of the plagues. 

But He did remove people at the destruction of Sodom and the other 4 cities.

[Nathan]

The fact that he didn't remove Noah from the earth while he dealt with the carnality "of" the earth is extremely significant.  Same with Israel's bondage in Egypt.  God didn't remove Israel first, "then" send the plagues, he protected them in the midst of the plagues. 

But He did remove people at the destruction of Sodom and the other 4 cities.

Yeah and I've often wondered about that.  It could be that Lot's relationship with the Father wasn't all that evident whereas Noah clearly found favor in the eyes of the Lord.  The only reason Lot was saved was due to the intercession of Abraham.

It could also be that it's depicting the condition of one's heart in that Lot "chose" to live where he was and the message of Light needed to lead him out by the hand because not all the earth was being destroyed and Lot could easily step out of the corruption.  Whereas with Noah, the whole earth was being flooded, so he'd need supernatural intervention, and with Israel, they were in bondage and could not very well be led out until the power that had them in bondage could be dealt with.

[Raggedy Anne]

Sparrow,

The truth is, (for me) I don't know if the material world is going to vanish into something wholly other which is spiritual.  It is something I never stop wondering about and trying to understand.  How can anyone be sure of it, really?   The thing for me is that the curse includes having to LABOR - to work to stay alive, to sweat and struggle and be stressed out.  So something is definitely going to change in a BIG way for that not to be our reality.   I want to be conscious of love and beauty and Christ, while at the same time not being under the bondage of corruption.  I want to be alive yet completely separated from all that has to do with being subjected to death.  I want to be separated from SIN and all its accompaniments.   And that, my dear friend, is truly beyond my ability to imagine.  But it is my blessed HOPE.  If I did not have that hope, I would not be able to bear being mortal, really.  Were it not for the promise, I'd rather have never been born.

You don't mind if I shout do you?  :director: :skittles:  GLORY TO GOD!!!

anne

[sparrow]

Sparrow,

The truth is, (for me) I don't know if the material world is going to vanish into something wholly other which is spiritual.  It is something I never stop wondering about and trying to understand.  How can anyone be sure of it, really?   The thing for me is that the curse includes having to LABOR - to work to stay alive, to sweat and struggle and be stressed out.  So something is definitely going to change in a BIG way for that not to be our reality.   I want to be conscious of love and beauty and Christ, while at the same time not being under the bondage of corruption.  I want to be alive yet completely separated from all that has to do with being subjected to death.  I want to be separated from SIN and all its accompaniments.   And that, my dear friend, is truly beyond my ability to imagine.  But it is my blessed HOPE.  If I did not have that hope, I would not be able to bear being mortal, really.  Were it not for the promise, I'd rather have never been born.

You don't mind if I shout do you?  :director: :skittles:  GLORY TO GOD!!!

anne

Shout all you want!  :icon_flower:
I loved your post!  :icon_flower:

I kind of see the "natural" world being glorified into something that we can't quite imagine.
Perhaps those scenes from that lovely bones movied that Tim posted kind of hint at (a bit) of what is in my own heart of a "glorified" creation. A creation in it's non-fallen state.
"Natural", yet so much MORE natural than it has ever been. (If that makes sense.)
I think it is, like you said, beyond our imagination.
What is UN-natural is the fallen state of things.
Sin.
Animals eating animals.
All the fear.

Think of how much FEAR there is in this world.
Not just humans.
But animals.
So much fear.
No communication between each other.
All of creation being utterly and totally fearful of the REST of creation!!

This is what is unnatural.

I think things will be restored to a state so glorious, we can't even imagine.
The corruption will put on INcorruption.
That is the seed of hope that is nurtured within my heart.

[scotr]

Sparrow,

The truth is, (for me) I don't know if the material world is going to vanish into something wholly other which is spiritual.  It is something I never stop wondering about and trying to understand.  How can anyone be sure of it, really?   The thing for me is that the curse includes having to LABOR - to work to stay alive, to sweat and struggle and be stressed out.  So something is definitely going to change in a BIG way for that not to be our reality.   I want to be conscious of love and beauty and Christ, while at the same time not being under the bondage of corruption.  I want to be alive yet completely separated from all that has to do with being subjected to death.  I want to be separated from SIN and all its accompaniments.   And that, my dear friend, is truly beyond my ability to imagine.  But it is my blessed HOPE.  If I did not have that hope, I would not be able to bear being mortal, really.  Were it not for the promise, I'd rather have never been born.

You don't mind if I shout do you?  :director: :skittles:  GLORY TO GOD!!!

anne

Shout all you want!  :icon_flower:
I loved your post!  :icon_flower:

I kind of see the "natural" world being glorified into something that we can't quite imagine.
Perhaps those scenes from that lovely bones movied that Tim posted kind of hint at (a bit) of what is in my own heart of a "glorified" creation. A creation in it's non-fallen state.
"Natural", yet so much MORE natural than it has ever been. (If that makes sense.)
I think it is, like you said, beyond our imagination.
What is UN-natural is the fallen state of things.
Sin.
Animals eating animals.
All the fear.

Think of how much FEAR there is in this world.
Not just humans.
But animals.
So much fear.
No communication between each other.
All of creation being utterly and totally fearful of the REST of creation!!

This is what is unnatural.

I think things will be restored to a state so glorious, we can't even imagine.
The corruption will put on INcorruption.
That is the seed of hope that is nurtured within my heart.

Amen!!!
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[sparrow]

scot... :HeartThrob:  :happy3:

[jesushandsarekindhands]

IF IF IF IF IF everyone who ever lived EVER is going to be resureccted and put back on the earth (all at once)...Will there be enough room for all of us?  I can barely get across the road these days as it is.

[noname]

"the peacemakers will inherit the earth"...put me down with those folks thanks :thumbsup:
as for heaven...what is heaven? anyone been there to give us some insight?

[Molly]

IF IF IF IF IF everyone who ever lived EVER is going to be resureccted and put back on the earth (all at once)...Will there be enough room for all of us?  I can barely get across the road these days as it is.

That's because all you folks cluster together in uninhabitable places known as cities.  Cities were never God's plan for his people.  I've read the entire population of the world could fit comfortably in Australia.  That leaves the other 6 continents for the rest of us.

How much land is set aside for trees and chipmuncks in this country alone?  If push comes to shove, we can always tell the chipmuncks to stand aside!


As of 31 January 2008 (2008 -01-31), according to the United Nations Environment Programme, the U.S. had a total of 6,770 terrestrial nationally designated (federal) protected areas. These protected areas cover 2,607,131 km2 (1,006,619 sq mi), or 27.08 percent of the land area of the United States.

--wiki

[jesushandsarekindhands]

IF IF IF IF IF everyone who ever lived EVER is going to be resureccted and put back on the earth (all at once)...Will there be enough room for all of us?  I can barely get across the road these days as it is.

That's because all you folks cluster together in uninhabitable places known as cities.  Cities were never God's plan for his people.  I've read the entire population of the world could fit comfortably in Australia.  That leaves the other 6 continents for the rest of us.

How much land is set aside for trees and chipmuncks in this country alone?  If push comes to shove, we can always tell the chipmuncks to stand aside!


As of 31 January 2008 (2008 -01-31), according to the United Nations Environment Programme, the U.S. had a total of 6,770 terrestrial nationally designated (federal) protected areas. These protected areas cover 2,607,131 km2 (1,006,619 sq mi), or 27.08 percent of the land area of the United States.

--wiki

Where did you hear that cities were never Gods plan for his people?

Also, im talking here about EVERY human who has EVER lived on Earth since the Earth was made.  That's a lot of people.  Even the weight of them all on earth at once would probably have some effect on the planet, not to mention the resources they would all require at once...There's millions of people without food or water as it is.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I think that if He was a big enough God to raise them all from the dead, He'll figure out the logistics of the "small stuff". Don't forget the creation will be restored as well. Who knows what we've lost as far as that over time. Blessings....

[Molly]

IF IF IF IF IF everyone who ever lived EVER is going to be resureccted and put back on the earth (all at once)...Will there be enough room for all of us?  I can barely get across the road these days as it is.

That's because all you folks cluster together in uninhabitable places known as cities.  Cities were never God's plan for his people.  I've read the entire population of the world could fit comfortably in Australia.  That leaves the other 6 continents for the rest of us.

How much land is set aside for trees and chipmuncks in this country alone?  If push comes to shove, we can always tell the chipmuncks to stand aside!


As of 31 January 2008 (2008 -01-31), according to the United Nations Environment Programme, the U.S. had a total of 6,770 terrestrial nationally designated (federal) protected areas. These protected areas cover 2,607,131 km2 (1,006,619 sq mi), or 27.08 percent of the land area of the United States.

--wiki

Where did you hear that cities were never Gods plan for his people?

Also, im talking here about EVERY human who has EVER lived on Earth since the Earth was made.  That's a lot of people.  Even the weight of them all on earth at once would probably have some effect on the planet, not to mention the resources they would all require at once...There's millions of people without food or water as it is.

There's millions of people without food and water because the powers that be like it that way.  Don't think that is a necessary condition.  Haven't you heard of farmers being paid not to farm?

I first heard that cities were not God's plan for his people in Genesis 2 when he created Adam to be his husbandman [farmer].  It was Cain who went off to build the first city, and we all know his reputation.  But, Adam was created to tend and keep the garden of God.  Note in the generations leading to Jesus, they were all farmers and shepherd kings.

As for the rest of it, how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?