2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 Are these people going to be saved?

[ChosenofGod37]

Shadow said:
You still have not answered my question, are people according to you going to be tortured forever, if so why would God allow such a monstrosity to occur, why can't people just choose nonexistence if they so choose

It's not up to me or anyone else Shadow. God's choice. Read Romans 9:14-25 for your answer.

[ChosenofGod37]

Seth,

Man experiencing evil has nothing to do with perishing according to 2 Thess 2:10-12. :thumbsup:

[claypot]

Cp,

you said:
Perish does not mean judged or humbled but it is needed for a person to go from a state of unrighteousness to a state of holiness.

Where do you see this definition of perish as this meaning? Look above for perish meaning according to the text.

I think we must perish to the state of unrighteousness in order to go to the state of righteousness. I think it means what you say. We must die (perish) to the ungodly ways.

Cp, We are all born "in Adam" (not saved) but those who repent and believe in Jesus are "in Christ" (saved).

Chosen, did you do anything to be a sinner? Did you one day say "I think I'll choose to be a sinner today." ? No you are a sinner because you are in Adam. In Christ you are saved. Do you understand this? Your choices will follow the work of God in you for it is He who works in you to do and to will His good pleasure. Do you agree?

Perish does not mean going from a state of unrighteousness to a state of holiness. You go from a state of unrighteousness to a state of righteousness through faith in Jesus. (2 Corinthians 5:21.)

You are correct IMO. Perish means to cease to be. Exactly what I am saying. We, the old man (the faithless one), must perish for we, the new man (the faithful one-the Christ man), to be born. 

2 Corinthians 5:21 "For the one not having known sin, He (Jesus) made sin on our behalf, so that we shall become the RIGHTEOUSNESS of God in Him (Jesus).

Yes we shall! Amen!!!

No aionion purification of sins (unrighteousness) needed. Jesus imputed His righteousness to those who believe in Him and in return we impute our unrighteousness(sin) to Him. Those who die in their sins (the unrighteous, those who remain in Adam), perish for the ages of ages (fig, forever).

We impute our unrighteousness to Him? Aren't we the benevolent ones! I don't think we impute anything. I think He takes away the sin of the world.

I have died in my sins in Adam. God said to Adam, of whom I am in, "Eat and you die." I ate (sinned) and I died, period. I am judged and thrown out of the garden, in Adam. I am saved in Christ.

Chosen, do you really think someone can break what the Good Book says? Do you think someone who is dead in Adam will not be made alive in Christ? If you do then tis you who are denying The Word and God Himself IMO.

Just be careful my friend as I know I must be too. God has much for us to do here so we must have absolute and perfect faith in Him, that He will accomplish all His desire and we know what His desire is concerning everyone, don't we! Those of us who doubt what God can and is doing will only hinder His ultimate work.

cp

[ChosenofGod37]

Cp,

you said:

I think we must perish to the state of unrighteousness in order to go to the state of righteousness. I think it means what you say. We must die (perish) to the ungodly ways.

Answer: Perish haS nothing to do with dying to ungodly ways. You add that meaning to perish.

you said

Chosen, did you do anything to be a sinner? Did you one day say "I think I'll choose to be a sinner today." ? No you are a sinner because you are in Adam. In Christ you are saved. Do you understand this? Your choices will follow the work of God in you for it is He who works in you to do and to will His good pleasure. Do you agree?

Answer: No, Adam represented the human race. when he fell, we fell.

you said:

We impute our unrighteousness to Him? Aren't we the benevolent ones! I don't think we impute anything. I think He takes away the sin of the world.

I have died in my sins in Adam. God said to Adam, of whom I am in, "Eat and you die." I ate (sinned) and I died, period. I am judged and thrown out of the garden, in Adam. I am saved in Christ.

Chosen, do you really think someone can break what the Good Book says? Do you think someone who is dead in Adam will not be made alive in Christ? If you do then tis you who are denying The Word and God Himself IMO.

Answer: Read 2 Corinthians 5:21 again we imputed our sins to a man that knew no sin so we can have His righteousness. Exchange there Cp. Jesus bores our sin and gives us His righteousness only when you believe.

Yes those who are spiritually dead in Adam (Eph 2:1) can come alive by grace to those who BELIEVE. yOU HAVE TO BELIEVE TO RECEIVE THIS RIGHTEOUSNESS. CP. Read Romans 4:3-6

[aspiring son]

Cp,

you said:

I think we must perish to the state of unrighteousness in order to go to the state of righteousness. I think it means what you say. We must die (perish) to the ungodly ways.

Answer: Perish haS nothing to do with dying to ungodly ways. You add that meaning to perish.

you said

Chosen, did you do anything to be a sinner? Did you one day say "I think I'll choose to be a sinner today." ? No you are a sinner because you are in Adam. In Christ you are saved. Do you understand this? Your choices will follow the work of God in you for it is He who works in you to do and to will His good pleasure. Do you agree?

Answer: No, Adam represented the human race. when he fell, we fell.

you said:

We impute our unrighteousness to Him? Aren't we the benevolent ones! I don't think we impute anything. I think He takes away the sin of the world.

I have died in my sins in Adam. God said to Adam, of whom I am in, "Eat and you die." I ate (sinned) and I died, period. I am judged and thrown out of the garden, in Adam. I am saved in Christ.

Chosen, do you really think someone can break what the Good Book says? Do you think someone who is dead in Adam will not be made alive in Christ? If you do then tis you who are denying The Word and God Himself IMO.

Answer: Read 2 Corinthians 5:21 again we imputed our sins to a man that knew no sin so we can have His righteousness. Exchange there Cp. Jesus bores our sin and gives us His righteousness only when you believe.

Yes those who are spiritually dead in Adam (Eph 2:1) can come alive by grace to those who BELIEVE. yOU HAVE TO BELIEVE TO RECEIVE THIS RIGHTEOUSNESS. CP. Read Romans 4:3-6

AND YOU HAVE TO BE GRACED BY GOD TO EVEN BELIEVE, CHOSEN

[ChosenofGod37]

Hey Aspiring Son,

I agree. Salvation is by God's sovereign grace. God chooses man, not man chooses God. God doesn't choose everyone. He draws the elect and grants them repentance and faith to believe in Jesus.(Eph 1:3-5 ; Acts 11:18 ; Phil 1:29)

[claypot]

Hey Aspiring Son,

I agree. Salvation is by God's sovereign grace. God chooses man, not man chooses God. God doesn't choose everyone. He draws the elect and grants them repentance and faith to believe in Jesus.(Eph 1:3-5 ; Acts 11:18 ; Phil 1:29)

God doesn't choose everyone?

Chosen, do you believe God loves everyone?

cp

[ChosenofGod37]

Cp,

No, God does not choose everyone. That has never been His plan of salvation. It has always been Grace through faith by sovereign election from Adam to Noah to Abraham to Moses to the nation of Israel to the remnant of Israel to the Gentiles.

Cp, God is love. We love because He first loved us. That agape love does not go out to all His creatures. Only his elect. Jesus prayed for His people (elect) in John Chapter 17. Read it. Jesus says he does not pray for the world, but for the ones God has given Him. In the OT do think he loved those unrighteous, wicked people(Gen 6:5) who He wiped out in the flood? Only Noah and His family survived because they were chosen by God unto righteousness.

Christianity is not some social club that everyone can join. You have to be born into the family of God to be His children.( Jn 3:3).

[claypot]

Cp,

you said:

I think we must perish to the state of unrighteousness in order to go to the state of righteousness. I think it means what you say. We must die (perish) to the ungodly ways.

Answer: Perish haS nothing to do with dying to ungodly ways. You add that meaning to perish.

I did not add any meaning to the word perish. I said it means to cease to be. Did you overlook this? Does it mean this to you? I just put it in context when talking of perishing to unrighteousness. Or let me put it this way, the man of sin must perish. The old man must perish. Do you believe this?

you said

Chosen, did you do anything to be a sinner? Did you one day say "I think I'll choose to be a sinner today." ? No you are a sinner because you are in Adam. In Christ you are saved. Do you understand this? Your choices will follow the work of God in you for it is He who works in you to do and to will His good pleasure. Do you agree?

Answer: No, Adam represented the human race. when he fell, we fell.

So, Chosen, you did not do anything to become a sinner yet you believe it's all up to you whether you become saved or not? You are taking a mighty big load upon your shoulders which is up to you but Jesus did warn us about burdening others with burdens too heavy for them.

Read 2 Corinthians 5:21 again we imputed our sins to a man that knew no sin so we can have His righteousness. Exchange there Cp. Jesus bores our sin and gives us His righteousness only when you believe.

Chosen, you really think the Good Book is teaching us that we kind of barter for salvation by giving something to Jesus in exchange for it.

For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.2cor5.21

You really think this is what this verse is teaching us. I think of 1cor2.14 again!

Yes those who are spiritually dead in Adam (Eph 2:1) can come alive by grace to those who BELIEVE. yOU HAVE TO BELIEVE TO RECEIVE THIS RIGHTEOUSNESS. CP. Read Romans 4:3-6

And you [did he make alive,] when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins,  eph2.1

Chosen where in this verse does it say 'spiritually' dead?

I do agree with you about the need for us to believe but where you and I part roads, I hope only for a short time now though, is how we come to be able to believe!

cp

[ChosenofGod37]

Cp,

Read my above response above on how we are saved.

Eph 2:1 When your dead in your sins, that means spiritually otherwise how are you walking around dead in your sins?

[claypot]

Chosen, I have asked you many questions and you totally ignore them so for me to continue would be a waste of time of which Jesus warns me so I am done for now and if you want any further input you can pm me and we'll see.

Go with God and keep asking, seeking and knocking to the One who knows all.

cp

[ChosenofGod37]

Cp,

No, God does not choose everyone. That has never been His plan of salvation. It has always been Grace through faith by sovereign election from Adam to Noah to Abraham to Moses to the nation of Israel to the remnant of Israel to the Gentiles.

Cp, God is love. We love because He first loved us. That agape love does not go out to all His creatures. Only his elect. Jesus prayed for His people (elect) in John Chapter 17. Read it. Jesus says he does not pray for the world, but for the ones God has given Him. In the OT do think he loved those unrighteous, wicked people(Gen 6:5) who He wiped out in the flood? Only Noah and His family survived because they were chosen by God unto righteousness.

Christianity is not some social club that everyone can join. You have to be born into the family of God to be His children.( Jn 3:3).

[claypot]

Chosen, I just had to be sure before I wrote this and it is a bit off subject but...........

you are one wacked out dude......... but don't worry, the harder the nut the more glory to God when He cracks it.

Go in peace or not but.....................

cp

[Seth]

Seth,

Man experiencing evil has nothing to do with perishing according to 2 Thess 2:10-12. :thumbsup:

You asked why God would send deception that they would believe a lie. Evil has everything to do with that.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Verse 10 "And in all deception of the unrighteousness among the ones perishing, because they did not receive the love of the truth for them to be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send to them a supernatural working of deception, for them to believe the lie, 12 so that they shall be judged, all the ones not having believed the truth, but the ones having delighted in unrighteousness."

What do you believe these scriptures are teaching? According to 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 do these unrighteous people believe the love of the truth (Jesus) for them to go to heaven?

Gods context is Love.  He IS love,  it is not about God having that "trait",  there is a difference.

All words in the bible have to be seen in love first, then seen in the action that love takes to "reconcile all".   So when you know this about God then you can see what the scriptures are saying.


In verse 11 we see the word in greek

G1223  dia  dee-ah'

a primary preposition denoting the channel of an act;
through (in very wide applications, local, causal, or occasional):--after,
always, among, at, to avoid, because of (that), briefly, by, for (cause) ... fore,
from, in, by occasion of, of, by reason of, for sake, that, thereby, therefore, X
though, through(-out), to, wherefore, with (-in). In composition it retains the
same general importance.

Then we look at how the word is used so that we can see the nature of the following word in verse 12.

G2919  krino  kree'-no

properly, to distinguish, i.e. decide (mentally or judicially);

by implication, to try, condemn, punish:--avenge, conclude, condemn, damn,
decree, determine, esteem, judge, go to (sue at the) law, ordain, call in
question, sentence to, think.

Given Gods character with all of that then we have  supporting verses to tie Gods character with his  declared actions.

Ro 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.

Ro 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

Ro 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.



So the answer to your question is YES.

[peacemaker]

The mind when confronted with fire will defend the house with only a garden variety hose. But it is impossible for man to make progress beyond the boundaries of the system to which they are attached; good and evil, without the Spirit of truth.

"Fear is the darkroom, where many develop their negatives."

Right thinking is essential if we are to unleash the abundance of life.
Therefore, let us remember to walk in the Spirit of the Day, it's ALL GOOD!

peacemaker

[WhiteWings]

Verse 10 "And in all deception of the unrighteousness among the ones perishing, because they did not receive the love of the truth for them to be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send to them a supernatural working of deception, for them to believe the lie, 12 so that they shall be judged, all the ones not having believed the truth, but the ones having delighted in unrighteousness."

What do you believe these scriptures are teaching? According to 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 do these unrighteous people believe the love of the truth (Jesus) for them to go to heaven?

a] I believe sinners/ungodly/wicked are unrighteous and don't goto heaven.
b] Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ....
c] I believe only righteous people goto heaven.

Maybe a veil needs to be removed to see a 'hidden step' that clears up the "contradiction"... :winkgrin:

[IceDash]

chosenofgod37 or lee100, doesn;t matter lol how about this funny question:

Jesus said his last enemies he will destroy is death

so how do you explain "perish" if Jesus defeat death? can't have both way.... :icon_king:

[wilmont]

I believe that salvation is really a WAY OF KNOWING GD (Life...see commentary in John 17:3), and not to be confused with day of perfection or day of perfect.
The righteous suffer, the unrighteous are punished.  It is not always for me to determine who is who.
As being one of the faith or a believer in Gd's Love and forgiveness (Gospel) Gd will,  through my  suffering produce in me , a perfection ahead of time (See commentary in Hebrews 1 or 2 I think)...just like Jesus was perfected in suffering, so shall I be (as Jesus the example in the  perfector of my faith).

If by my intentional transgression my conscience causes me to ponder my punishment, I cannot say it is suffering of the righteous, now can I?

Better to check the log in my eye first to determine my own suffering or punishment before I go about seeing my guilt likeness in others.  If it is of faith it is not of sin.
Salvation teaches us that.

Even though alot of people do think of salvation as getting to heaven...which is okay, some have to wait, until they physically die, to  know Gd the way of the marriage covenant (Holy Spirit).
The marriage union or covenant between man and Gd (called a Holy Spirit) but may not really functioning the way it is supposed to.

May you all be blessed.
It has been a couple years since I posted anything on this board.

[jesushandsarekindhands]

Theres so many interpretations and thoughts about who will be saved and who won't.  The bible does make it pretty clear to me that some won't be saved.

What I do is realize that no-one has all the answers, but rest safe in the knowledge that one day God will judge the world in fairness as he said.

It's easy to pull out passages here and there that can make God seem really unfair (yes, i said unfair)-
The apostle Peter firmly stated: "For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?" (1 Peter 4:17). Then Peter asks, "If the righteous one is scarcely saved, where will the ungodly and sinner appear?" (verse 18)

All things are possible with God, and Christs saving power stronger than Adams trespass.  (Surely we don't believe that Adam is stronger than Christ do we?)

And it's easy to pull out passages that make God sound very fair, and indeed 'worthy' of worship, because anyone with a good heart will love his enemy and have no wish to see him either burn in hell forever, or be dead forever, but rather they would see God, 'heal and restore them' and love them and forgive them as we forgave them.

1) Eph 1:11..........God works ALL things after counsel of His will
2) Jn 8:29.............Jesus ALWAYS does which pleases His Father
3) I Tim 2:4.........God will have ALL to be saved
4) I Jn 4:14..........Jesus sent to be the Savior of the world
5) Jn 4:34............Jesus to do the will of God who sent Him
6) Jn 12:47..........Jesus came to save ALL
7) I Tim 2:6.........Jesus gave Himself a ransom for ALL
8) Jn 5:36 ...........He will finish the works He was sent to do
9) Jn 4:42............Jesus is the Savior of the world
10) Jn 12:32.........Jesus will draw ALL to Himself
11) Heb 7:25........Jesus is able to save to the uttermost
12) Col 1:15.........Jesus the first born of ALL creation
13) Col 1:16.........By Him ALL things were created
14) Rm 5:15-21....In Adam ALL condemned, in Christ ALL live
15) I Cor 15:22....In Adam ALL die, in Christ ALL live
16) Eph 1:10........ALL come into Him at the fulness of times
17) I Cor 15:26....Death, the last enemy, will be destroyed
18) Phl 2:9-11.....EVERY TONGUE shall confess Jesus is Lord
19) I Cor 12:3......Cannot confess except by THE HOLY SPIRIT
20) Rm 11:26.......ALL Israel will be saved
21) Act 3:20-21....Restitution (Reconstitution) of ALL
22) Lk 2:10...........Jesus will be the joy to ALL people
23) Eph 2:7...........His grace to be shown in the ages to come
24) Heb 8:11-12...ALL will know God
25) Lk 3:6.............ALL flesh shall see the salvation of God
26) Titus 2:11.......Grace has appeared to ALL
27) Rm 8:19-21....Creation freed from corruption
28) Col 1:20..........ALL reconciled unto God
29) I Cor 4:5..........ALL will have praise of God
30) Jms 5:11..........End of the Lord is full of mercy
31) Rev 15:4..........ALL Nations worship when judgments seen
32) II Cor 5:17.......ALL becomes a new creation in Christ
33) Rm 11:32.........ALL subjected to unbelief, mercy on ALL
34) Rm 11:36.........ALL out of God, thru Him, and into Him
35) Eph 4:10...........Jesus will fill ALL things
36) Rev 5:13...........ALL creation seen praising God
37) I Cor 15:28.......God will be ALL in ALL
38) Rev 21:4-5........No more tears, ALL things made new
39) Jn 5:25..............ALL dead who hear will live
40) Jn 5:28..............ALL in the grave will hear & come forth
41) Jn 6:39.............And this is the Father's...I should lose nothing
42) Jn 6:12.............Gather up the fragments that...that nothing be lost
43) I Cor 3:15.........ALL saved, yet so as by fire
44) Mk 9:49...........Everyone shall be salted with fire
45) II Cor 5:15........Jesus died for ALL
46) I Jn 2:2..............Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world
47) Rm 11:15..........Reconciliation of the world
48) Heb 2:2.............He is the heir of ALL things
49) Jn 3:35..............ALL has been given into His hand
50) Jn 17:2..............Jesus will give eternal life to ALL that His Father gives Him
51) Jn 6:44-45.........ALL to be taught of God and will come
52) I Tim 4:9-11......Jesus is the Savior of ALL
53) Acts 13:47.........Salvation unto the ends of the earth
54) Gal 3: ................All nations shall be blessed.


So I guess what I'm saying is that on a matter such as this, it's going to boil down to hope.  And of course, what we believe about God.

[jesushandsarekindhands]

I found this online, which is more or less what I believe about the subject of 'who will be saved'.


Read it if you have time or an inclination.

I've put in red bold the part I felt was most relevant.




How Will God Judge the World?
Judgment remains one of the most misunderstood subjects in all the Bible. Many think of it almost wholly in terms of condemnation or damnation. But is that really how God will judge His human creation? On what basis will He render a final verdict?
by John Ross Schroeder

How Will God Judge the World?If you or I were to seriously harm another person (hypothetically speaking), in the Western world we would be brought before a judge and jury to receive an appropriate punishment. The prosecuting attorney would emphasize the tragic condition of the innocent victim, and the defense lawyer would point out any extenuating circumstances in a plea for the perpetrator. Motive would be argued by these two lawyers.

Any witnesses would be called to testify either for or against the accused. The judge would disallow inappropriate testimony. Finally the jury would retire to consider the case in private. In due time, if they had been convinced by the prosecutor's arguments, they would return to court with a guilty verdict. The sentence would be handed out by the judge on a later date.

This oversimplified fictional scenario pretty much sums up the way in which many conceive of the subject of judgment—usually with undue emphasis on the final verdict and sentencing. The popular concept runs very negatively.

But what does God's inspired Word teach? The rendering of "eternal judgment" in the Bible is a far more serious matter than, say, ruling on the petty misdemeanors that normally characterize a Judge Judy courtroom. Our final destiny is seriously at stake! Just what does Scripture say regarding God's judgment of the world?
God is the Judge

In pleading for any righteous individuals in wicked Sodom, the patriarch Abraham asked God, "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" (Genesis 18:25). There were not even 10 righteous persons in Sodom, but God spared "righteous Lot" (2 Peter 2:7) and his two daughters from the catastrophe that followed.

The New Testament also tells us that "God [is] the judge of all" (Hebrews 12:23). Jesus Christ revealed that God the Father is "Lord of heaven and earth" (Matthew 11:25). As always, He remains the ultimate authority, presiding over the entire universe and everything in it, visible and invisible. Our eternal destiny is in His capable hands.

Yet the Father delegates the awesome responsibility of judging human beings to His beloved Son: "For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son" (John 5:22, emphasis added throughout). This is because Jesus actually lived as a human being Himself (verse 27), showing God's eminent fairness. Of course, Jesus is of the same mind as the Father, declaring, "I and My Father are one" (John 10:30).

The context of this passage shows that the resurrection from the dead intersects with Christ's coming judgment: "Most assuredly I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live" (verse 25). Everyone who has died will hear Christ's voice (verse 28).

Humanity will be resurrected from the dead. We have Christ's absolute guarantee preserved in His inspired Word to mankind. The resurrection will occur! And numerous passages link this with a time of coming judgment.
The plan of salvation

God planned His whole creation. He thought things out well in advance. Human beings figure prominently in the awesome future God is working toward. He made men and women in His own image (Genesis 1:26-27) with the ultimate goal of bringing them into His divine family. People have sinned, but God's purpose is to redeem and save them.

The Bible reveals God's master plan of salvation. It begins and ends with Jesus Christ. Notice what the apostle Paul stated: "He [the Father] raised Him [Jesus] up from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come" (Ephesians 1:20-21).

Earlier in this chapter Paul told the Christians at Ephesus, "He [the Father] made known to us his secret purpose, in accordance with the plan which he determined beforehand in Christ, to be put into effect when the time was ripe; namely that the universe, everything in heaven and earth, might be brought into a unity with Christ" (verses 9-10, Revised English Bible).

Judgment is a major part of that divine plan. "Eternal judgment" follows the "resurrection from the dead" in the listing of six major biblical doctrines that lay a foundation for going on to perfection in Hebrews 6:1-2. It begins with those whom the Bible calls the firstfruits of God (Romans 8:23; James 1:18; Hebrews 12:22-23).

These relative few are privileged to be made aware of God's plan of salvation well in advance of the vast majority of mankind. They will be in the first and better resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:23; Hebrews 11:35). God the Father and Christ the Son are laboring to bring the firstfruits to eternal glory (Hebrews 2:10). As we will see, judgment plays a major role in that work of salvation.
Judgment begins with the Church of God

The apostle Peter firmly stated: "For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?" (1 Peter 4:17). Then Peter asks, "If the righteous one is scarcely saved, where will the ungodly and sinner appear?" (verse 18).

Does this passage then mean that truly converted Christians will just barely make the first resurrection into God's family? Not at all!

The word "scarcely" is translated from the Greek adverb molis, meaning "with difficulty" (Strong's no. 3433). In fact, the few other uses of this word in the New Testament indicate the meaning to more specifically be "with such difficulty as to seem that success would be unlikely." Indeed, Christ said that the way to salvation is a narrow and difficult path (Matthew 7:14). Yet even what is impossible for men is possible with God (Matthew 19:26).

One of the overriding principles of sound biblical study is that we search out all the relevant scriptures bearing on a particular subject. In his second letter Peter points out a number of Christian attributes that we should all be developing: faith, virtue, knowledge, self-control, perseverance, godliness, brotherly kindness and love.

He then concludes: "Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 1:10-11). This majestic event occurs at the time of the first resurrection when Christ returns to planet earth (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 1 Corinthians 15:51-54).

In the meantime, the Church is going through a period of judgment—which means a time of evaluation and of disciplinary consequences for disobedience. Such helpful chastening is part of the difficulties a Christian must endure (Hebrews 12:7). In stating what he did in 1 Peter 4:18, Peter was referring to Proverbs 11:31: "If the righteous will be recompensed on the earth, how much more the ungodly and the sinner?"
Awaiting a future judgment

Indeed, what about the ungodly and the sinner in today's world—including those who cavalierly cast aside the Ten Commandments with little regard for the hurt and destruction they cause themselves and others? Clearly such rebellion carries grave consequences. But are such people—most of humanity, in fact—lost forever with no hope of salvation?

The apostle Paul was inspired to write in the Bible of converted Christians: "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us" (Romans 5:8). Would not our just and merciful God also demonstrate His love to other sinners in desperate need of real repentance and His merciful forgiveness? God gave His Son because He loved the whole world (John 3:16).

Peter points out, "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9). This is the loving nature of our God who is filled with mercy. He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked.

Paul writes of "God our Saviour, whose will it is that all should find salvation and come to know the truth" (1 Timothy 2:3-4, REB). A false, satanic gospel has denied many people access to the truth of God.

Jesus Christ said: "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth [crucified], will draw all peoples to Myself" (John 12:32). Christ is going to straighten out this world in His coming reign on earth as King of Kings and Lord of Lords with the assistance of the resurrected and transformed saints (Revelation 20:4).

That is why God is calling them as the "firstfruits" of His divine family during this age of man: "Of his own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures" (James 1:18).

Many more will be called to salvation during Christ's millennial reign and just on beyond. A future second resurrection to judgment will occur just after the Millennium (Revelation 20:5, 11-12). For the most part, this future judgment will not be to condemnation or damnation. Other scriptural passages strongly indicate that the majority of all those who have ever lived will be given the opportunity for salvation—and most will gladly accept it.

Read Ezekiel 37:1-14, which describes this time. The resurrected Israelites described in this passage think their hope is lost—that they are cut off from God (verse 11). But their Creator will give them hope. They will have their opportunity for salvation, and most will receive the Holy Spirit and be saved (verse 14). Centuries after Ezekiel wrote this prophecy, the apostle Paul firmly stated, "All Israel will be saved" (Romans 11:26).

This is true judgment—godly evaluation of human existence with righteous discernment and great mercy (see Isaiah 11:3-4; James 2:13). Unlike a human judge of this world, our Judge loves us! He gave His life for us!

As we might expect, there will be a stubborn few who simply will not repent and turn from sin even after God has given them every opportunity. Even then, however, the permanent penalty will not be everlasting punishing in the fires of hell. The Bible teaches that the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23)—the diametric opposite of life.

After burning up in the lake of fire (Revelation 20:14), they will simply cease to exist. This is the second death (Revelation 20:14). You can learn much more by reading our free booklet Heaven and Hell: What Does the Bible Really Teach?
God's magnificent purpose for humanity

The awesome result of our Creator's activities on this earth lies "in bringing many sons to glory" (Hebrews 2:10)—the Greek term here includes daughters as well. As the apostle Paul explains in 1 Corinthians 15:22-23, God accomplishes His plan in stages: "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order."

God is enlarging His family in His own way and according to His own timetable. Many assume that today is the only day of salvation and that the ultimate judgment for humanity at large is determined solely by what happens in this life.

The Bible, however, reveals something far different. The first resurrection represents the firstfruits of God's salvation. Judgment for them occurs in this life. But a much larger group, representing the greater part of all who have ever lived, will be offered salvation some 1,000 years later. They will go through their judgment period then. For only then, in that great later harvest of mankind, will they receive their opportunity for everlasting life in the Kingdom of God. GN

The website was http://www.gnmagazine.org/issues/gn84/god-judge-world.htm

[WhiteWings]

Theres so many interpretations and thoughts about who will be saved and who won't.  The bible does make it pretty clear to me that some won't be saved.

Let me put my thoughts this way. I too would find it odd all would be saved. (not taking ET stuff here)
But many verses seem to contradict my thought. For example my 3 fav verses I use as a signature.

1 Timothy 2:3-4  .... God our Saviour;  Who will have all men to be saved....
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ....


Take Romans for example. Ungodly... that aren't exact the followers of Jesus. But they are declared, not asked, not begged, declared righteous. What is the destination of the righteous.....?

[jesushandsarekindhands]

Theres so many interpretations and thoughts about who will be saved and who won't.  The bible does make it pretty clear to me that some won't be saved.

Let me put my thoughts this way. I too would find it odd all would be saved. (not taking ET stuff here)
But many verses seem to contradict my thought. For example my 3 fav verses I use as a signature.

1 Timothy 2:3-4  .... God our Saviour;  Who will have all men to be saved....
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ....


Take Romans for example. Ungodly... that aren't exact the followers of Jesus. But they are declared, not asked, not begged, declared righteous. What is the destination of the righteous.....?

But the Romans passage says that these people 'believed'.  Many people, most in fact, don't believe.  Again i guess it depends on how a person interperates the passage.

[WhiteWings]

Depends indeed.
For me the ungodly are all that are not 'the saints'. The real true believers.
So that includes pagans for example.


Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ....

A group of people that believes/trusts/worships/... the One
"who"=the One. What does "The One" do? Declare the ungodly righteous

Put otherwise.
Some people do not work but believe in The One.
AND
The One declares sinners godly.

Basicly it are two verses/statements.

^WWRomans 4:5 The believers trust in the One that also will make the ungodly godly.
:2c:

[jesushandsarekindhands]

Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ....

I read this passage (at this moment in time) like this...

Paul is talking about faith and works, and he's saying that the man who 'does not work' but 'has' faith in God...His faith is credited to him as righteous rather than his works.  Paul then goes on to give lots of examples of faith.  I see the ungodly in this passage as anyone at all who 'believes or trusts' in God to save them through their faith in him.
But again, it brings up the subject of who believes.  If the ungodly doesn't believe in him who justifies the ungodly, will they be justified at all?