The Economy

[Molly]

Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Jab, from my point of view, there are some things which must be accepted as a given to understand what is going on here.  One is that statement above that satan deceives the whole world.  That means that all of us is or has been deceived by satan.  This is meant to alert us, not accuse us.  We must constantly ask ourselves, where am I being deceived?

The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.
--Thomas Jefferson

vigilance

the process of paying close and continuous attention
alertness, watchfulness, wakefulness

Is there anything there that Jesus would not also advise us?

In fact, Jesus reproves the disciples only a few times, and one is for not being alert and watching.

Mark 14:37
And he cometh, and findeth them sleeping, and saith unto Peter, Simon, sleepest thou? couldest not thou watch one hour?

"watch"

G1127
γρηγορεύω
grēgoreuō
gray-gor-yoo'-o
From G1453; to keep awake, that is, watch (literally or figuratively): - be vigilant, wake, (be) watch (-ful).

We can see how hard this is if those who walked with Jesus in the flesh could not even do it.  We can also see how important it is because our Savior rarely reproved his disciples.

If we are watchful, then, what will we see?  We will see how we are being deceived constantly.  We will see who is deceiving us.  We will see how they are deceiving us.  And, we will know what to do about it, one step at a time.

In these times, it is getting easier to see the truth because the wheat and the tares are growing up.  You can't tell the difference when they are tender shoots.  They look alike.  It is not until they grow into maturity that you can tell the difference.

10And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
11He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

--Rev 22


It is the angel who will lock up satan for 1000 years.  Angels are men--messengers, prophets, priests, and teachers.

[firstborn888]

I'd say Wilkerson is overreacting, if only a bit. But, God needs to do what he needs to do to get us to wake up. And he will.

Doc - how would you wake someone up whom you loved? Set them on fire? Stab them in the leg with a knife? Of course not! People like Wilkerson are just seeing their own hard-headed-ness and reacting in kind. 

[Doc]

I'd say Wilkerson is overreacting, if only a bit. But, God needs to do what he needs to do to get us to wake up. And he will.

Doc - how would you wake someone up whom you loved? Set them on fire? Stab them in the leg with a knife? Of course not! People like Wilkerson are just seeing their own hard-headed-ness and reacting in kind. 

I can see that...

[jabcat]

Got a little reminder tossed my way today - "In the world you will have trouble but take courage for I have conquered the world."  John 33:16

If God helps us prepare, He has helped us.  If we have "no resources" with which to prepare, He'll still prepare us anyway.  Any way we slice it, He's all we need!

[preistsplace]

How are you guys feeling and what are you thinking about the economy?  I was talking with a friend of mine, who if a believer at all, is a somewhat "distant" one.  I think he believes in God, but not sure where his trust in Jesus is.  Was raised Catholic, Catholic school with the "mean nuns", doesn't really have anything to say about Jesus, etc., unless I bring it up.

Anyway, he is a Democrat, voted for Obama.  He talked today about he and his fiancee's (ex-wife, getting remarried) different thoughts on things with the economy, what they're doing to prepare if an absolute "crash" occurred.  He's a pretty logical, not overly-reactive guy.  One thing he told me though bears some further research, and if it's true, IMO it's an attention getter.  He said that many rich people, especially in New York, are quietly moving out of the country, "because they know it's [the crash/disaster] coming".

I believe God's going to fix everything in the end.  My thoughts are what may occur in the meantime.  I think some of us here at TM may believe it's only getting better from here, with things building to the Kingdom;  some of us may see things more as the "great falling away", "will He find faith on the earth", and the earth will be cleansed with fire before the new heaven and new earth;  and some surely have mixtures of various other POVs.

In general, I think these are upsetting times for a lot of folks, and is at the very least an opportunity for us to share with others, both our financial resources and the message of Life.

Paul said he had never seen the righteous forsaken or begging for bread.

I thank God often for His gracious blessings on me and my family.  He has given us food, shelter, and protection. 

How's everyone doing in these unsettled times?  Opinions, thoughts, feelings are great, but does anyone also have any specific, absolutely certain words from the Lord on these matters?

God's blessing, James.

Trust in the Lord,
If he can feed 5000 people with a few fishes and a loaf of bread he can provide for you. Do not doubt it ..Proclaim it. As to the world getting better or worse, remember God is with you.

[WhiteWings]

In a nutshell: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTYyZfNOJ30

[preistsplace]

Got a little reminder tossed my way today - "In the world you will have trouble but take courage for I have conquered the world."  John 33:16

If God helps us prepare, He has helped us.  If we have "no resources" with which to prepare, He'll still prepare us anyway.  Any way we slice it, He's all we need!

He IS ALLwe need.  :goodpost:

[sheila]

  Luke 12;22  Then Jesus said to his disciples;'Therefore I tell

you,do not worry about your life,what you will eat, or about your

body,what you will wear.Life is more than food and the body

more than clothes.Consider the ravens;they do not sow or

reap,they have no store room or barn,yet,God feeds them.

........

.....v 30 for the pagan world runs after all such things, and the

Father knows that you need them.But, seek His kingdom,and

these things will be given you as well.


  Do not be afraid...........

little flock,for your Father has been pleased to give you the

kingdom. Sell your possessions and give to the poor.Provide

purses for yourselves that will not wear out. A

treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no theif

comes near and no moth  destroys.  For where your treasure

is,there your heart will be also.
         

[sparrow]

 :goodpost:

[Molly]

Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel, Obama's top health care advisor, advocates denying care to elderly and disabled

August 12, 10:08 AMDC Catholic Living ExaminerDenise Hunnell, M.D.

Allocating medical care based on the subjective judgment of the value of a patient's life is contrary to Catholic teaching. The value of treatment to any given patient can be ethically evaluated, but every patient's life is of inestimable worth.

Those advocating for President Obama's health care reform label concerns about rationing of care and denial of care to the elderly and disabled as irrational and the product of fear mongering. However, if you read the work of Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel, who is the health-policy advisor at the White House Office of Management and Budget (OMB) and a member of the Federal Council on Comparative Effectiveness Research (FCCCER) and also the brother of the President's Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel, these concerns seem very reasonable indeed. The current legislation does not specify medical treatments to be covered. Rather, it delegates these decisions to a Health Benefits Advisory Council. This panel is advised by the FCCCER. That is why the ideology of Dr. Emanuel is very relevant to concerns about rationing of health care.

In January, 2009, Dr. Emanuel published a paper in the Lancet [Persad, Govind, Alan Wertheimer, and Ezekiel J. Emanuel. "Principles for allocation of scarce medical interventions." The Lancet 373 (Jan 31,2009): 423-31]. In it he argues for the use of a "Complete Lives Systems" method of allocating care. From the abstract:

We recommend an alternative system--the complete lives system--which prioritises younger people who have not yet live a complete life and also incorporates prognosis, save the most lives, lottery, and instrumental value principles.

In defending this approach against charges of ageism, Dr. Emanuel claims that because everyone was young once, prioritizing the young over the old is not discrimination:

Unlike allocation by sex or race, allocation by age is not invidious discrimination; every person lives through different states rather than being a single age. Even if 25-year-olds receive priority over 65-year-olds, everyone who is 65 years now was previously 25 years.

This system also treats human beings as commodities, evaluating their lives as "investments":

Consideration of the importance of complete lives also supports modifying the youngest-first principle by prioritising adolescents and young adults over infants. Adolescents have received substantial education and parental care, investments that will be wasted without a complete life. Infants by contrast, have not yet received these investments. Similarly, adolescence brings with it a developed personality capable of forming and valuing long-term plans whose fulfillment requires a complete life.



Lifesite News reports that in a Hastings Center Report, 1996, Emanuel also spoke of denying care to the disabled:

In a separate 1996 article for the Hastings Center Report, Emanuel spoke about rationing care away from those "who are irreversibly prevented from being or becoming participating citizens" to the non-disabled, adding "An obvious example is not guaranteeing health services to patients with dementia."

This is the ideology that will be guiding the Health Benefits Advisory Council in the current health care reform legislation.

http://www.examiner.com/x-9452-DC-Catholic-Living-Examiner~y2009m8d12-Dr-Ezekiel-Emanuel-Obamas-top-health-care-advisor-advocates-denying-care-to-elderly-and-disabled



Anyone else getting a sick feeling about these people?
Hmm...where have we seen such policies before?  (Hint:Germany, 1933) :sigh:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Scary bunch of people.......Blessings.....

[Redlettervoice]

  Luke 12;22  Then Jesus said to his disciples;'Therefore I tell

you,do not worry about your life,what you will eat, or about your

body,what you will wear.Life is more than food and the body

more than clothes.Consider the ravens;they do not sow or

reap,they have no store room or barn,yet,God feeds them.

........

.....v 30 for the pagan world runs after all such things, and the

Father knows that you need them.But, seek His kingdom,and

these things will be given you as well.


  Do not be afraid...........

little flock,for your Father has been pleased to give you the

kingdom. Sell your possessions and give to the poor.Provide

purses for yourselves that will not wear out. A

treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no theif

comes near and no moth  destroys.  For where your treasure

is,there your heart will be also.
         

Sends "chills" on me.........so real........so God speak.  Thank you, Lord.

[Redlettervoice]

This "curse" of "trusting in man" has got to be DESTROYED!  I wish
I could get OFF the meds that I'm on, some of them, anyway. Because
man cannot "see" ......he errs, and we all fall into the trap.  Even years
ago, the doctors and the drug companies began to "get rich" at OUR
expense! Now, probably the "health care" industry has affected our
economy as much as anything.  The costs are sky high.  For "every" person they have gotten "rich" treating. With their hit and miss tactics. I take blood pressure med, because I had a stroke.  I take
other meds because I had a tumor removed......and the neuro in my
head is absolutely a MIRACLE that I am alive.......I do NOT condemn
myself or anyone else, absolutely not, but wouldn't it be wonderful
if all this stuff we could do w/o.  When I do not take my blood pressure,
it is not one hour til I am about to explode...........so you see how much
faith I would have to have to lay it down.  But it is God that works in
you both to "will" and to do.  Not me.  God.  I know that I can present
my body to God "just as it is" ..........and He does not put me down
for any of it.  No no no.  None of us.  We live in this world. 
We as Christians "bear the marks" in our "bodies."  Other "lords"
beside thee have had dominion over our what? "bodies."
And over our economy too. But people, the "world" belongs to HIM.
He is higher than us.  His thoughts are.  And if I can think it, He can
do it.  I still believe.

But you get my drift.  Pray ...........for us all.

[Molly]

This "curse" of "trusting in man" has got to be DESTROYED!

I know, but I am praying for Jesus to raise up his brothers, and I'm assuming they will look like...men.

[jabcat]

Israel prayed for a King. God finally gave it to them, IMO, at least in part to teach them lessons.
My hope is that God will use this situation to wake people up.  We'll see, but I hope/trust God has a plan (specifically for America) rather than just letting us drown in our own dung.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Anyone else getting a sick feeling about these people?
Hmm...where have we seen such policies before?  (Hint:Germany, 1933) :sigh:

Yes, I do not like a policy that would actually do that, what some advocate for is not always what they get which is a good thing.


I am also tired of something else.  I hear how wonderful our current health care system is,  oh the virtues are held up as if nothing needs changed.

I really am sick and tired of the people who pretend to care, I have lost count of the people who I tell about my wifes problems with the health care I pay 140 dollars a week for.  They deny paying for medicine that the "approved" doctor wants to prescribe my wife.   I cannot afford the medicine BECAUSE I PAY 140 DOLLARS A WEEK ON THE HEALTH CARE COVERAGE.

But all I get is the blind look and the comments,  "oh that's too bad"  screw you.

[Molly]

Israel prayed for a King. God finally gave it to them, IMO, at least in part to teach them lessons.
My hope is that God will use this situation to wake people up.  We'll see, but I hope/trust God has a plan (specifically for America) rather than just letting us drown in our own dung.

It's satan's economy again, this time applied to health care.  There can't possibly be enough to go around, therefore we have to prioritise who gets to live and who gets to die--abortion for adults, so to speak.  I wonder if they would apply such insane notions to their own loved ones or if some are more equal than others.



Proverbs 8:36
But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

[Paul Hazelwood]

 I wonder if they would apply such insane notions to their own loved ones or if some are more equal than others.

I'm sure that the owners of insurance companies do not deal with the problems my wife has in obtaining medicine,  you can count on that.

[sheila]

 Hey,guys...

 It just shows me the TOTAL INADAQUACY AND LACK OF LOVE

THE PRINCE OF THIS WORLD HAS FOR IT'S SUBJECTS.


 He told 'Israel' when they demanded a King like the nations

around them..that 'KING' would TAKE TAKE TAKE.

 All these great 'problems and dilemas' these governments are

expierencing,are as 'nothing' for HIM TO HANDLE.


 Sickness..ageing..poverty...death..corruption etc  all the

effects of 'sins wages'...become a 'moot point' when the free

 gift is given.


  Those that serve and love Mammon will find that the purse

 has a 'hole' in it. Robbers and theives will steal it away,

 How is this so? Because of sickness and death and sin

 people fall into want...because of sin..people are not

 prospered by God. Until there is 'no more curse' or wickedness

 there will be a lack of blessing and prosperity.


 It is like the 7 cows of plenty[blessings] that were eaten up

by the 7

 skinny cows[want]. We all fall into want when old

 age,feebleness,sickness and poverty sap our strength,health

 and resources.[terrible wages of death/curses]


 Thanks be to the GREATER JOSEPH that stored up 'grain'

to sustain our lives....eternally. And when...He gathers

 His wheat into the barn of heaven...there is bread aplenty

 up there!!  He will open the storehouse/gates of Heaven

and pour out a BLESSING UNTIL THERE IS NO MORE WANT


  Malachi 3;10  You are under a curse,the whole nation of

you,because you are robbing me.Bring the whole tithe into the

storehouse,that there may be food in my house."Test me in

this",says the LORD ALMIGHTY, 'and see if I will not throw open

the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that

you will not have room enough for it.

 I will prevent pests from devouring your crops,and the vines in

your feild will not cast their fruit,says the Lord Almighty.


 'You have have said harsh things against me.Yet you ask,

what have we said against you?You have said,'it is futile to

serve God.What did we gain by carrying out His requirements,


and going about like mourners  before the Lord Almighty?


But now we call the arrogant blessed.Certainly the evildoers

prosper,and even those who challenge God escape.


 Then those who feared the Lord,talked with each other,and

the Lord listened and heard.A scroll of remembrance was written

in His presence,concerning those who feared the Lord and

honored His name.


 They will be mine,says the Lord Almighty,in the day when I

make up my treasured possession.I will spare them,just as in

compassion a man spares his son who serves him.

And you will again see the distinction between the righteous

and the wicked.


....But for you who revere my name the sun of righteousness

will rise with healing in it's wings.And you will go out and leap

like calves released from the stall.Then YOU will trample down

the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on

the day that I do these things,says the Lord Almighty.


  I feel the above scriptures is so important in the light of the salvation of All mankind. The saints may say in their hearts..why should I go about mourning when all mankind are being saved..and even the wicked will be blessed.

  And Red, don't be concerned...for what do you know that God let Egypt/this world s medical system, benefit your needy flesh/
sustain it/until He comes with your healing...Just as Pharoahs
grain was stored up to sustain Joseph's family for awhile.

 Evidently, if He is sustaining you..it is for HIS

 PURPOSE,SURELY


  Love to all His saints

[sheila]

   THE CRUX OF THE MATTER



    WE ARE HERE........


    Matthew 27;15  Now it was the govenors custom at the feat

   to RELEASE A PRISONER CHOSEN BY THE CROWD.

  At that time they had a notorious prisoner called Barabbas.

   So,when the crowd had gathered,Pilate asked them,

  'WHICH ONE DO YOU WANT me to release to you[Matt 16;19]

   BARRABASS OR JESUS WHO IS CALLED CHRIST?

   For he knew it was out of envy that they handed Jesus

over to him.

  v21  Which of the two do you want me to release to you?

   asked the govenor?

  Barrabass they answered...

  What shall I do then,with Jesus who is called Christ?



   Matthew 16;19

   I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven;

   WHATEVER YOU BIND ON EARTH IS BOUND IN HEAVEN

   AND WHATEVER YOU LOOSE ON EARTH

   WILL BE LOOSED IN HEAVEN


   Saints....choose Christ...loose Him on earth and in Heaven

[Molly]

 I wonder if they would apply such insane notions to their own loved ones or if some are more equal than others.

I'm sure that the owners of insurance companies do not deal with the problems my wife has in obtaining medicine,  you can count on that.

Yes, I hear you.  I have a friend who pays 15,000 a year for health insurance because she doesn't qualify for any program, and she is rarely sick.  But, there are ways to address that without jumping from the frying pan into the fire with a 1000 page bill that gives this type of control to the government.

I don't want rahm emmanuel's brother deciding if I live or die, or his father, or his dog.  I don't want him anywhere near me.

Emanuel was born in Chicago, Illinois to Jewish parents.[4] His father, Benjamin M. Emanuel, a Jerusalem-born pediatrician, was a member of the militant Zionist group Irgun.



The Irgun was the armed expression of the nascent ideology of Revisionist Zionism founded by Ze'ev Jabotinsky. He expressed this ideology as "every Jew had the right to enter Palestine; only active retaliation would deter the Arabs and the British; only Jewish armed force would ensure the Jewish state".[1]

Some of the better-known attacks by the Irgun were the bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem on 22 July 1946 and the Deir Yassin massacre (accomplished together with Lehi) on 9 April 1948.

In 1947 "the British army in Mandate Palestine banned the use of the term terrorist to refer to the Irgun zvai Leumi ... because it implied that British forces had reason to be terrified",[2] but this did not stopped others referring to it as a terrorist organization, examples of which include the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry,[3] several media sources,[4][5][6][7][8] and a number of prominent world and Jewish figures.[9][10][11] Irgun attacks prompted a formal declaration from the World Zionist Congress in 1946, which strongly condemned "the shedding of innocent blood as a means of political warfare".[12] The Israeli government had designated Irgun as a terrorist organization according to the "Prevention of Terrorism Ordinance" No 33 of 5708-1948 - 23 Sep 1948 (claimed to be adopted for the specific purpose of dissolving Irgun and Lehi)[13] and disbanded it in 1948.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun

[jabcat]

Man, I agree with you all on this!  Rosie, IMO, no condemnation for taking meds you need.  If God will get glory, if it's His will, He can miraculously heal you tomorrow.  Or, He may continue, even for awhile, to meet your needs through the meds and an ability to acquire them.

Paul and Molly, I agree there are some serious things that need to be fixed, including Paul's wife's medicine issues, Molly your friend's, etc.  Those things need looked at and reworked.  I wish we/they had the sense to fix a few things by applying some real solutions rather than eventually blowing up the whole system while pursuing a Marxist agenda of bigger, more powerful governmental control/reinforcing dependence on Big Brother.

Prayer and an awakening.  Maybe God's given us the evil we need to wake us from our slumber.  I'm trying to not be so much, trying to remember the Kingdom, but I for one am pretty (honestly) angry.

[Paul Hazelwood]

  But, there are ways to address that without jumping from the frying pan into the fire with a 1000 page bill that gives this type of control to the government.

Ok, what is the way to fix my problem?

[jabcat]

I'm personally (probably to my shame and should be a confession) pretty ticked.  I'm struggling between "respect those in authority" and wanting to march on Washington with a group of American citizens and "throw the bums out and get them out of our business".   :sigh:  :dontknow:

Keep telling them what we want and need?  Keep insisting we're paying attention and are literally sick and tired of them pushing their own junk down our throats?  Stop voting for people that are evil/vote for the "less evil" of the options?  :dontknow:   Keep praying that God move evil out of the way, while at the same time paying attention to His use of evil to wake us up?  I'm searching...

I'm personally looking at more and more natural/alternative medicinals, about half-way there...more to research and learn, haven't stepped out in a couple of areas yet.  A little tentative and uninformed yet.  I don't claim to have all the answers, maybe there are some things that would help others too that would help us bypass some of "the machine"...I may decide to either use more natural, less expensive things God gives us (including His using these things and/or otherwise healing me) or die and go on to be with Him.  Not there yet.  Thinking.  Any ideas on this besides "you're nuts"?

[jabcat]

I really am trying to help Paul.  Do you think it might be possible that there are some less expensive natural alternatives that could help your wife?  I think the insurance situation you describe really stinks.