If those that endure till the end are saved...

[jabcat]

not your last post...now your next to last  :bigGrin:

[Zeek]

ok, maybe we're onto something here with your last post...maybe we should define salvation

YES, now i agree with this.

I have done a study on shame, and revealed alot to me.  

saved by faith and obedience=rewarded; covered in his righteousness

saved by destruction=shame

[Zeek]

Rom 1:5  By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

[CrossoverManiac]

ok, maybe we're onto something here with your last post...maybe we should define salvation

Yes, define 'salvation'.  If there is no Hell, then what is Jesus saving us from?

[jabcat]

ok, how about we slow down a second, you look at my posts and I'll look at yours...rather than just bantering back and forth, let's consider what we're discussing.  Right now (and thanks for your last post about throwing things out, not set in stone, I need to be open as well), here's what I'm thinking.  I think taking all these scriptures that we have "always" assumed are talking about something we've "always" believed, and just assuming that's what they're really talking about, may be a mistake.  again, all the falling, failing, punishment, suffering shame, does that mean "losing salvation" as in no longer being a child of God, His grace no longer covering us, His blood no longer washing us, but now a child of the devil?  or might they mean some things other than that?  you're quoting some excellent scriptures, but now what do they mean?  what are they really addressing?  just saved/lost, heaven/hell?  or more issues than that?  again, reigning, where, how, how long, suffering what exactly?  correction, a "quick remedy", or being tossed somewhere without hope and to be tortured by the devil with his pitchfork?  What exactly would Jesus denying someone mean?  Once God puts His Spirit in you and seals you as His, His son, His child, then He pulls His Spirit out and tosses you...where?  So again, what parts deal with salvation, what does salvation mean, and is it possible some other parts deal with some other spiritual matters, having to do with sonship, inheritance (of what?), which resurrection, etc.  Big Subject...and oh yeah, did I say I don't have it all figured out?  :icon_joker:

[jabcat]

crossover, good question...let's think a bit...

by the way, wasn't Luther and the Catholics arguing about this a couple years ago?  :punish:   :happy3:

[Zeek]

ok, maybe we're onto something here with your last post...maybe we should define salvation

Yes, define 'salvation'.  If there is no Hell, then what is Jesus saving us from?

what is he saving us from? 

Psa 11:5  The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Psa 11:6  Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.

[Zeek]

1Jn 2:28  And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

Rom 10:11  For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Rev 16:15  Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Rev 3:18  I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

[Zeek]

Rom 2:5  But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Rom 5:9  Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

[Zeek]

Gen 6:8  But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Gen 6:13  And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.


Gen 6:22  Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.

Gen 7:5  And Noah did according unto all that the LORD commanded him.


Gen 7:21  And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:

Gen 7:22  All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.

Gen 7:23  And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

[jabcat]

Interjection;

Have you [anyone] ever in your life really known someone who deep down, way down in the depths of their being, really, truly longed to "live for God"...live a "good Christian life", "do what's right"?  But they were so conditioned that it was all based on their works, on their being able to somehow be good enough, somehow live holy enough, righteous enough, please God enough, that by doing so they could win His favor and He just might barely save them so they wouldn't have to go to hell and spend eternity there in constant pain and misery?  Apart from God and apart from the ones they loved?  And that there would be no reprieve, no escape...forever, and ever, and ever...no end to the suffering.  And it really had little to do with Jesus' death, His sacrifice, His righteousness...oh, except they believed He died on the cross, and that He was righteous all right, but all that really meant was He expected them to now be able to somehow measure up.

So since that person felt totally condemned, unworthy, even hated themselves to some degree...and even more than that, maybe even somehow hated and resented the God they really desired to love and be able to serve...because He had just made it too hard, in fact, impossible for them to "be a Christian".  They know they aren't good enough.  They know they sin.  They know there's nothing good in them, at least that would settle any kind of account with God.  They couldn't do it.  They couldn't "be a Christian".  They'd tried a time or two..they'd called on Jesus to save them, forgive them.  But they didn't understand.  The next day when they slipped, had a bad thought, said something that wasn't altogether honest, then that was it.  They had failed God, had sinned, so were no longer a Christian.  So they gave up, back to "I knew it wouldn't work..I knew I couldn't do it..it's just too hard..I can't be a Christian, I'm not good enough".  So the cycle began again.

Have you ever known that person?  They're sad, sometimes lonely and depressed.  They sometimes drink too much, smoke too much, take too many pills to keep going, to try to somehow ward off their despair.  And inside, they're terrified, because they think that really God doesn't love them, and they know their fate is sealed...they're going to hell.

Only to some extent, I've been that person.  Not totally, because somehow, through all my faults and failures, I was given just enough light to keep going...enough grace to keep living and not die...enough of His strength to "hang in there" until He began to show me some of the things I've written earlier in this thread.  That it's not me after all...that yes, He wants obedience and surrender to Him...but that even in doing that, I still have to look to Him for my strength..look to Him for my salvation..look to Him to be my righteousness, because sure as the day, I'm going to mess it up, and I'm going to need His mercy and forgiveness.  And His Spirit and power to sustain me.

I do know that person above though.  It's my dear, oldest sister.  She was raised in an environment that had been significantly mellowed by the time I came along.  She is 10 years older than me, and to this very day, at age 60, she lives a sad, defeated, lonely life.  She's not "good enough" to be a Christian, and she doesn't understand that it's God's grace that both saves us and keeps us...that He is just what He says He is.  Not only the Beginner of her salvation, but also the Finisher of it.  She is unable to trust and be "convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,  nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."  Because she thinks it depends on her.  And she can't do it.

Neither can I.  That's why I have to "know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day."  

James.

[Zeek]

"Above all else, guard your heart for it is the wellspring of life. Let your eyes look straight ahead; fix your gaze directly before you.  Make level paths for your feet and take only ways that are firm.  Do not swerve to the right or the left; keep your foot from evil." - Proverbs 4:23-27

[Zeek]

Php 2:13  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

how??


Php 2:5  Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:


let:


G5426
φρονέω
phroneō
fron-eh'-o
From G5424; to exercise the mind, that is, entertain or have a sentiment or opinion; by implication to be (mentally) disposed (more or less earnestly in a certain direction); intensively to interest oneself in (with concern or obedience): - set the affection on, (be) care (-ful), (be like-, + be of one, + be of the same, + let this) mind (-ed, regard, savour, think.

Php 2:12  Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

[sparrow]

Ok, so maybe this is off-topic, I don't know.
But it's what jumped in my mind as I was reading this thread.



If only more folks would realize that God sees us as his beautiful children.

Look at this sweet child
How would a mother or father (or anyone of us for that matter) view this sweet little child:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWNoiVrJDsE

:HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :icon_flower: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:


Now.. think of OUR Father.
And how he sees us.
Do you REALLY think it's ALL that different?
Isn't it even far, far, far MORE WONDERFUL the way HE sees us??
and feels towards us????
He knows we are walking through this darkened, fallen world.
HE created us IN HIS IMAGE.
and subjected us

YES.
HE SUBJECTED USto corruption.
But it's so we can learn.
So we can learn by contrast.
So the whole creation CAN LEARN.
So we can see what love truly is.
GOD IS LOVE.


We are beautiful beings, created by an awesome God.
and we are being subjected to futility for a reason, for a season...
So that all of his enemies will be destroyed.
What are God's enemies?
That which is in opposition to Him
What is in opposition to him?
Anything that is NOT love.
People will not be destroyed.
The darkness is BEING destroyed.
How is it being destroyed???
BY KNOWLEDGE.
YES! By knowledge.
Our learning about love destroys the darkness.
That's what it's all about.
Nothing else matters.

When you turn on a light, you chase away the darkness.
That's what we are here for.
To LEARN to turn on those lights and chase away the darkness.

GOD is chasing away the darkness by subjecting us to this world for a SEASON.
So that we may learn by it's contrast to love, so that we may be suited for eternity.


God loves us.
ALL of us.
we ARE his beloved children.
No matter WHERE we are in our earthly lives.
He sees the REAL us.

[Zeek]

But do you Sparrow,  believe that those "under law" can know love??   Can those without faith know LOVE?

To KNOW HIM, is eternal life.

And is release from the law something all experience now??

[sparrow]

But do you Sparrow,  believe that those "under law" can know love??   Can those without faith know LOVE?

To KNOW HIM, is eternal life.

And is release from the law something all experience now??

Yes, of course.
Those "under law" CAN know love.
and those without faith CAN know love.

They experience it by the love they feel in their hearts towards their children, for instance.
A person can taste some of the love that God has for us by their own love they feel in their hearts for their own children. God has given us many, many, many different ways of tasting love. We're in varying degrees of darkness, ALL of us. Just because a person may be absolutely STEEPED in darkness on their path in life right now, doesn't mean they can't "taste" love.

We know only a small portion of love.
When the veil is removed...
love is going to knock us OFF OUR FEET.
We are going to be absolutely blown away.

Now, if you're talking about can people LOVE God.. if those people are "under law"
or "without faith", I don't know. I can imagine it would be quite difficult.

peace...

[Zeek]

But do you Sparrow,  believe that those "under law" can know love??   Can those without faith know LOVE?

To KNOW HIM, is eternal life.

And is release from the law something all experience now??

Yes, of course.
Those "under law" CAN know love.
and those without faith CAN know love.

They experience it by the love they feel in their hearts towards their children, for instance.
A person can taste some of the love that God has for us by their own love they feel in their hearts for their own children. God has given us many, many, many different ways of tasting love. We're in varying degrees of darkness, ALL of us. Just because a person may be absolutely STEEPED in darkness on their path in life right now, doesn't mean they can't "taste" love.

We know only a small portion of love.
When the veil is removed...
love is going to knock us OFF OUR FEET.
We are going to be absolutely blown away.

Now, if you're talking about can people LOVE God.. if those people are "under law"
or "without faith", I don't know. I can imagine it would be quite difficult.

peace...

So then what was the purpose of the cross?  If one can know HIM/LOVE while still under law??

[sparrow]

But do you Sparrow,  believe that those "under law" can know love??   Can those without faith know LOVE?

To KNOW HIM, is eternal life.

And is release from the law something all experience now??

Yes, of course.
Those "under law" CAN know love.
and those without faith CAN know love.

They experience it by the love they feel in their hearts towards their children, for instance.
A person can taste some of the love that God has for us by their own love they feel in their hearts for their own children. God has given us many, many, many different ways of tasting love. We're in varying degrees of darkness, ALL of us. Just because a person may be absolutely STEEPED in darkness on their path in life right now, doesn't mean they can't "taste" love.

We know only a small portion of love.
When the veil is removed...
love is going to knock us OFF OUR FEET.
We are going to be absolutely blown away.

Now, if you're talking about can people LOVE God.. if those people are "under law"
or "without faith", I don't know. I can imagine it would be quite difficult.

peace...

So then what was the purpose of the cross?  If one can know HIM/LOVE while still under law??

I don't think your question makes any sense.

You don't agree that you CAN still know LOVE if you are under the law?
Or in darkness?

I can't answer your questions because I don't know how you arrived AT that question, friend.
I really don't.

What does "the cross" have to do with knowing what Love is?
Are you saying no-one experienced any form of love BEFORE Jesus died on the cross?

Look all around at His creation he built all around us.
How can we NOT know love?
How can we NOT feel His love?
Look at the people you love in this world... are you saying you DID NOT love them when you were under the law?

Doesn't make much sense.

[sparrow]

As far as the cross...
There are different ways of interpreting the meaning of the cross.
But I think that may be one of those "we can't talk about" topics on tentmaker.

[reFORMer]

jabcat,

What you say of your sister as an example of so many others I feel is largely the result of  the way we do church, the way we meet, what we do when we get together supposedly as the church.  Alone and isolated doesn't happen when you have for years participated in each others lives as the body of Christ.  Your life means something to them.  In a three songs and a sermon ritual your presence makes no difference to the outcome of the meeting.  Who knows of your joys and sorrows, your strengths and weaknesses?  When every member participates other things come to the surface.  Dressed up in our religious clothes in a religious "sanctuary" to hear a professional give an oration on religious themes is often so disconnected from our actual lives.  In dirty work clothes, kids fighting, trying to deal with dinner and an argument over money with your mate...God is in the midst of that! and another brother wandered into the house to be a part of it all, staying for dinner.  Over years with every member participation we share the real us with one another.  We bear each other's burdens.  God ministers to us, imparting Himself to us out of ordinary flawed people.  The real problems are being shared and there is a corporate wisdom, not something filtered through the limited view of one man, maybe concerned to not lose his job.

How much of the following numbered points, 1 thru 9 corresponds to the concept of Christianity as constant indoctrination which the present "sermon every time we meet" practice implies?  We're taught a personal salvation that we are responsible for ourselves.  Where's the body?

2 Timothy 3:10-12 (CLV) . . .
Now you fully follow me in my 1.) teaching, 2.) motive, 3.) purpose, 4.) faith, 5.) patience, 6.) love, 7.)endurance, 8.) persecutions, 9.) sufferings, such as occurred to me in Antioch, in Iconium, in Lystra: persecutions such as I undergo, and out of them all the Lord rescues me.  And all who are wanting to live devoutly in Christ Jesus shall be persecuted.

Around 10 %?  Yet the present evangelical practice is more like 90% doctrine.  And all that "persecutions and sufferings!  We're often taught such is a sign we're displeasing to God.  Good people get good things.  Bad people have bad lives.  How much more is a balance given thru many members?

[Zeek]

But do you Sparrow,  believe that those "under law" can know love??   Can those without faith know LOVE?

To KNOW HIM, is eternal life.

And is release from the law something all experience now??

Yes, of course.
Those "under law" CAN know love.
and those without faith CAN know love.

They experience it by the love they feel in their hearts towards their children, for instance.
A person can taste some of the love that God has for us by their own love they feel in their hearts for their own children. God has given us many, many, many different ways of tasting love. We're in varying degrees of darkness, ALL of us. Just because a person may be absolutely STEEPED in darkness on their path in life right now, doesn't mean they can't "taste" love.

We know only a small portion of love.
When the veil is removed...
love is going to knock us OFF OUR FEET.
We are going to be absolutely blown away.

Now, if you're talking about can people LOVE God.. if those people are "under law"
or "without faith", I don't know. I can imagine it would be quite difficult.

peace...

So then what was the purpose of the cross?  If one can know HIM/LOVE while still under law??

I don't think your question makes any sense.

You don't agree that you CAN still know LOVE if you are under the law?
Or in darkness?

I can't answer your questions because I don't know how you arrived AT that question, friend.
I really don't.

What does "the cross" have to do with knowing what Love is?
Are you saying no-one experienced any form of love BEFORE Jesus died on the cross?

Look all around at His creation he built all around us.
How can we NOT know love?
How can we NOT feel His love?
Look at the people you love in this world... are you saying you DID NOT love them when you were under the law?

Doesn't make much sense.

LOVE imo is a Person/Being, The FATHER.  To know HIM is to LOVE.  

Under law, a mindset of earn your father's love; set man up for a spiral downhill; to the poing of despair.  From this position; we are able to reveal our nakedness to HIM, and KNOW LOVE.  

The law is the ministration of death, and death is separation from LOVE.  

[sparrow]

God has set up this world in a way where we KNOW love.
And that love can be weakened or it can be strengthened.

We don't come into the world not knowing love AT ALL.

We experience varying degrees of love.
The more we UNDERSTAND love... the more we CAN love.

The more we understand love, the more we understand GOD.

[reFORMer]

Not only should we understand what salvation is, but what end is in view that we are to endure until.

[sparrow]

LOVE imo is a Person/Being, The FATHER.  To know HIM is to LOVE.  

AHHHH.... yes.
Zeek... looky here now...

You said "To know HIM is to LOVE"
But the opposite is also true.

To KNOW LOVE, is to KNOW GOD.

When a mother looks into the eyes of her newborn child...
She KNOWS LOVE.
GOD IS LOVE.

He didn't stick us here on earth, totally unequipped.

Love is in our hearts.
Love is what makes us SEEK HIM.

Some seek him out of FEAR. Some STAY in that fear, and it is true, they will probably not ever truly understand God's love for us or the fact that GOD IS LOVE. But maybe one day... that love they have in their heart for someone else, will help soften their heart and help them to allow the thought in their head that maybe, just maybe think "God loves me the way I love...(my daughter, my son, etc.)".

Do you see what I'm saying?

[sparrow]

ALL love comes from the source.... (God.)

Isn't that a comforting thought?  :HeartThrob:

:icon_flower: