If those that endure till the end are saved...

[CrossoverManiac]

then what about the fearful that deny their faith.  Does not Jesus deny them?

[jabcat]

I personally believe there's a pretty big study here, that includes among other things, who Jesus was talking to, when, and about what.  Don't claim all the answers, have some ideas, many argue it different ways.  Rather than going there (again), I'd like to simply say;

God has given us His grace and mercy, through His death, blood, and resurrection.  I believe those that God calls and chooses, will be ensured perseverance by His power and grace.  A few of the references include "nothing can seperate us [power, principalities, things above, below, etc.", "looking to Jesus, THE AUTHOR AND FINISHER of our salvation", "saved by grace not works"...

IMO, we are to be faithful and obedient, but that is even empowered by God's Spirit working in us.  We cannot boast.  To God be the glory. 

[Zeek]

then what about the fearful that deny their faith.  Does not Jesus deny them?

2Ti 2:12  If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Jer 23:40  And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.

[Zeek]

Rom 1:16  For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.


Rom 1:18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

[jabcat]

2Ti 2:12  If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:


reign with him-The peculiar privilege of the elect Church now suffering with Christ, then to reign with Him (see on [2497]1Co 6:2). Reigning is something more than mere salvation (Ro 5:17; Re 3:21; 5:10; 20:4, 5).

A little piece of study, more to come...i believe there's a lot of context involved in this issue...a verse or 2 can be used to "prove" either direction

[Zeek]

reign with him-The peculiar privilege of the elect Church now suffering with Christ, then to reign with Him (see on [2497]1Co 6:2). Reigning is something more than mere salvation (Ro 5:17; Re 3:21; 5:10; 20:4, 5).

A little piece of study, more to come...

2Ti 2:10  Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

2Ti 2:11  It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:

2Ti 2:12  If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

in context, :)

it appears to me that reigning and salvation are closely related.

[jabcat]

cookies good...context great!  :laughing7:

[Zeek]

cookies good...context great!  :laughing7:

Tit 2:11  For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Tit 2:12  Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;


who is the us??  who was Paul writing too??  believers. 

If one denies Him, grace is not available to teach. one is left out of God's discipline, a bastard. 

Those who deny, are hardened (after the fact) and have sinned the sin unto death. 

Salvation by being turned over to adversary for the destruction of the flesh so the spirit can be saved in the day. 

a salvation via shame. 

[jabcat]

Basically, I understand it this way...there's salvation, there's privilege, there's reigning, and probably others...oh yeah, rewards...IMO, they're not all necessarily, always the same...

I personally don't believe we're saved by grace and then kept saved by our works...if so, then wherefor of grace?  If I can stay saved by my works, then I could boast...and Paul says we can't...so what's the answer(s) then?  I think it's a complicated topic, and very much needs to be rightly divided, many scriptures taken into consideration, and yes, several different contexts  :Whistle: to consider...it may be too big and me not quite skilled enough to put it all together in such a convincing manner to satisfy anyone who really strongly sees it the other way.  And if I tried, there'd be at least a couple of people that would try to pick it apart sentence by sentence, so it would turn into another fruitless struggle.  

I believe Jesus is our Savior, if He saves us, then He'll keep us saved.  There are other issues involved related to obedience, works, crowns, rewards, reigning when and where and for how long perhaps.  As I said, I probably can't satisfy anyone who strongly sees it the other way...and that's OK...Jesus is Master of all who believe  :thumbsup:.

[jabcat]

cookies good...context great!  :laughing7:

Tit 2:11  For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Tit 2:12  Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Yes, His grace brings salvation and teaches us...I don't see anything here about losing salvation...

[Zeek]

cookies good...context great!  :laughing7:

Tit 2:11  For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Tit 2:12  Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Yes, His grace brings salvation and teaches us...I don't see anything here about losing salvation...

after having the truth revealed, manifest;  one can deny Him, and lose their salvation of reward, that comes  through the washing of the word,

[Zeek]

imo, that's why Paul preached throughout the his epistles to "stay faithful", to endure, to keep your eye on the prize, etc.

[jabcat]

I don't think that's what this verse is saying...I just don't see all these things you're saying in these verses...it seems you're attributing the ungodliness to meaning individuals/believers...I don't think that's what it's saying...it's talking about just that...ungodliness, isn't it?

[Zeek]

Heb 12:5  And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

Heb 12:6  For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

Heb 12:7  If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

Heb 12:8  But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Heb 12:11  Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Heb 12:12  Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;

Heb 12:13  And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.

Heb 12:14  Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

Heb 12:15  Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

Heb 12:16  Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.

Heb 12:17  For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

Heb 12:18  For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,

Heb 12:19  And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:

Heb 12:20  (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:

Heb 12:21  And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:)

Heb 12:22  But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Heb 12:23  To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Heb 12:24  And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Heb 12:25  See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

Heb 12:26  Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

Heb 12:27  And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

Heb 12:28  Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:



Heb 12:29  For our God is a consuming fire.

[Zeek]

Luk 12:48  But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

[jabcat]

OK, so zeek.  

If you're already completely convinced, I certainly can't convince you otherwise.  I've stated what I believe, and I think there's still a lot of details I need to learn about specifics of Kingdom living, rewards, reigning, Sons of God, etc.  I don't think this is a straightforward 3 or 4 verse topic.

1Can you keep yourself saved?
2Can you work well enough to keep yourself saved?
3Are you the Author and Finisher of your salvation, or is Jesus?
4Is it by works you are saved, or by grace?

Is it possible some of the endurance, denying, etc. scriptures MAY have some other contexts and connotations?  If not, then how would you reconcile especially 3 and 4 above with you losing your salvation?

Am I missing it, because with just a quick scan, I see things in these scriptures you're quoting about obedience, etc., but nothing about losing God's grace/salvation?

Consider that you may be viewing these scriptures through an already set mindset, i.e., coloring them with your own belief.

[Zeek]

Col 1:21  And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

Col 1:22  In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

[jabcat]

Col 1:21  And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

Col 1:22  In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

obedience...salvation?

[Zeek]

1Co 10:5  But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
1Co 10:6  Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
1Co 10:7  Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
1Co 10:8  Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
1Co 10:9  Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
1Co 10:10  Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
1Co 10:11  Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

1Co 10:12  Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

[jabcat]

I'm typing fast...please don't take anything as offense...I may say something quickly and trying to respond to you honestly and forthrightly that may not be my normal longer thought-out process...let's do this as friends, you can be honest with me too, as long as we try to remain respectful...otherwise, I'll pull out and you feel free to do the same...

[Zeek]

Col 1:21  And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

Col 1:22  In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

obedience...salvation?

yes, imo; if you want to be rewarded rather than shamed.

[jabcat]

does fall mean losing your salvation/going to hell?  imo, this is much like the judgment stuff, in that many make judgment mean a final state of being, including then going to hell...does falling, being out of God's will, suffering consequences, automatically mean losing salvation?  i don't think so, at least necessarily...

[jabcat]

sorry, i'm trying to keep up with you

[Zeek]

Oh, don't worry, i am just on a roll, where i like to post scripture to paint a picture.  Nothing is fully set in stone with my mind; the Lord takes me through stages where i see some things, then he reworks my thinking


:)

[jabcat]

ok, maybe we're onto something here with your last post...maybe we should define salvation