The Potter and His clay & El Elyon

[Doc]

We are the clay, that is being made into One Body, One Spirit, having One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism, One God and Father of All — who is over all, and through all, and in all.

True messengers (angels) cannot sin, thus, the falling away from their first estate would be that of, or within the spirit of man. As we will not be exchanging one sinful nature – for that of another!

Those who left their habitation (place of continuance, or abode) were cast out of heaven; power, into hell (the grave), not to the earth.  Unless one means the ground, as they are held in chains of darkness that surrounds them.

"Casting a soft light on the subject."  :idea2:



peacemaker

Very amusing (very 'punny') about the shoes. Someone on another thread called me Doc Holliday. Anyway, the reference is to my profession, FYI for those of you who may be curious (and I don't mean "unusual"). We're all that kind of curious here.... :laughing7:


Yeah, I'm not too sure about this "angels who left their first estate" component. I mean, read the book of Jude and tell me that's us.... Yikes.  :mshock:

[chuckt]

though this interesting:

Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and
that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the
waster to destroy.

            Shachath TWOT - 2370
            Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
            shaw-khath'    Verb

       Definition
        1.. to destroy, corrupt, go to ruin, decay
          1.. (Niphal) to be marred, be spoiled, be corrupted, be corrupt,
be injured, be ruined, be rotted
          2.. (Piel)
            1.. to spoil, ruin
            2.. to pervert, corrupt, deal corruptly (morally)
          3.. (Hiphil)
            1.. to spoil, ruin, destroy
            2.. to pervert, corrupt (morally)
            3.. destroyer (participle)
          4.. (Hophal) spoiled, ruined (participle)



ok thats my one post for the day.  :mblush:

God
Bless

chuckt

[jabcat]

though this interesting:

Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and
that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the
waster to destroy.

            Shachath TWOT - 2370
            Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
            shaw-khath'    Verb

       Definition
        1.. to destroy, corrupt, go to ruin, decay
          1.. (Niphal) to be marred, be spoiled, be corrupted, be corrupt,
be injured, be ruined, be rotted
          2.. (Piel)
            1.. to spoil, ruin
            2.. to pervert, corrupt, deal corruptly (morally)
          3.. (Hiphil)
            1.. to spoil, ruin, destroy
            2.. to pervert, corrupt (morally)
            3.. destroyer (participle)
          4.. (Hophal) spoiled, ruined (participle)



ok thats my one post for the day.  :mblush:

God
Bless

chuckt

Well, I like your one post Chuck   :bigGrin: .. thanks for the balance, bro :thumbsup: 

[Cardinal]

Someone on another thread called me Doc Holliday. Anyway, the reference is to my profession, FYI for those of you who may be curious (and I don't mean "unusual"). We're all that kind of curious here.... :laughing7:

Yeah, I'm not too sure about this "angels who left their first estate" component. I mean, read the book of Jude and tell me that's us.... Yikes.  :mshock:

:cloud9: So you're saying I need to call you Dr. Doc?  :laughing7: Sorry, couldn't resist.  :winkgrin:

Anyway, so we're held in chains of darkness until the time of the end? I don't see a problem here; it says in another place He'll make tight our bands. The things that have us bound ARE as chains of darkness. If you look up darkness it means ignorance, ie. we are ignorant of the things which be of Christ, until He gives us light (wisdom) about those things.

It also says a chain is put on "Satan", which is the chain that is given to "Joseph" to put around his NECK, once we are rulers and not ruled over, ie. not a stiff-necked generation anymore. Blessings....

[sheila]

 well just because we must fall to the earth and die..to bear

fruit in heaven...doesn't mean were the fallen angels.

  Some of the Lost gospels speak of things that differentiate

  the fallen angels from fallen Adam.  Granted,there are

  similarities in common of rebelliousness. But these are spirits

  they have not been placed in a vessel..coz they left their

   dwellings in heaven.God sowed man in the earth..man did not

  in rebellion come down on his own

    Those born of God can not sin...so..they have no corruptible

vessels to flub them up..the corruption is their spirit nature

  that shows these fallen spirits are not angelic sons..but

  something entirely different..evil spirits...and hey..if Holy

  spirit can influence us to good these can influence us to evil


.Our Father sowed us into this earth as HIS

   HOLY SEED. The problem is satan wants to rule over

  man..use his flesh for his own works of evil. Jesus came in

flesh and redeemed all mankind sown in flesh..not disobediant

angels.. I NEVER ONCE HEARD HIM SAY HE CAME TO SAVE THE

DEMONS OR SATAN. When He spoke to the demonic he cast

them out of peoples flesh..because they didn't belong there

The fallen angels down here don't have their own flesh and

blood..that's why they want ours so bad..to defile GOD'S image

. Personally I see them as parasites that bring death to us..

  both spiritually and bodily. His GOOD SPIRIT is not like that

  it gives life to us and is beneficeint to us..

  There was WAR in HEAVEN...Michael and his angels fought

against satan and his angels..apparently satan and his angels

accuse us to God all the time..and say we are as bad as them

and not worthy of being saved. THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE

BETWEEN A NAIVE CHILD OF GOD THAT DOESN'T KNOW HIS

RIGHT HAND FROM HIS LEFT and is born in a corruptible weak

body into a corrupted earth where lies abound. And a demonic

spirit that has lived in heaven for a long long time..rebelled

in heaven ..come to earth spreading lies on God..lead Adam

and Eve into sin through deceit to bring about their death,

possess mens bodies as if he owned them himself instead of

them belonging to God for God's spirit to dwell in and finally

through an act of war was permenately thrown out to earth

  to await his judgement .

  Big difference between them and us...DO YOU NOT KNOW

  THAT WE ARE BEING RAISED TO HEAVEN TO TAKE THEIR

  FORMER DWELLING PLACES? Jacob/supplanter God has given

Adam's family their former positions.And rightly so for they

stole Adam's dominion given on the earth for themselves

They are the true sons of perdition[eternal cutting off] this was

shown when satan entered Judas. body...the one doomed to

destruction....give his position to another

  They are not capable of LOVE OR MERCY..they are not

  made in the image of God....we in sinful flesh..bear their image

  in the corruption of our flesh.But will be given new garments

   Mankind will go from glory to glory..while they will go from

  vileness to vileness.  Jesus said if I be lifted up,I will draw

  all men unto me[not satan and his demons]

   I know many of you will not agree with me..but I hope you will

   pray about it.

                              Sheila


                                   

[peacemaker]

The darkness of ignorance, dimness of discernment, obscurity of reasoning, and superstition are merely the absence of light; blindness.

"This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil." (John 3:19)

peacemaker   

[Doc]

though this interesting:

Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and
that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the
waster to destroy.

            Shachath TWOT - 2370
            Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
            shaw-khath'    Verb

       Definition
        1.. to destroy, corrupt, go to ruin, decay
          1.. (Niphal) to be marred, be spoiled, be corrupted, be corrupt,
be injured, be ruined, be rotted
          2.. (Piel)
            1.. to spoil, ruin
            2.. to pervert, corrupt, deal corruptly (morally)
          3.. (Hiphil)
            1.. to spoil, ruin, destroy
            2.. to pervert, corrupt (morally)
            3.. destroyer (participle)
          4.. (Hophal) spoiled, ruined (participle)



ok thats my one post for the day.  :mblush:

God
Bless

chuckt

That is interesting...

[jabcat]

And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?"
Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.  Matthew 13:10,11

Without going into that free will/sovereignty debate, probably most would agree, it's an involved/complicated subject, and God's a whole lot bigger than our own opinions and the boxes we sometimes try to put Him in, huh?  The "glass darkly" routine.

I really like your post Sheila, and I sure don't know one way or the other...honestly, got my doubts, but just not sure...what do you think about the Collosians 1:20'ish passages about reconciling all in and under the earth?  Again, obviously there are probably numerous ways to interpret this, and as with everything else, should be in total context  :dontknow: ...how though would you compare/contrast that to what you're saying?

Thanks, James.

[sheila]

  That's a really good question Jabcat. And I can certainly

  see why many of my brothers and sisters would think that

meant the fallen angels are to be reconciled too.

  And I beleive even the animals etc will be given eternal life

  the reason I don't beleive that the fallen angels will be is

because they are a tool..of a blacksmith..a waster to

destroy[corrupt].The spirit of life is not in them..or Father

  would certainly preserve that life.


   the old preistly covenant was set up to mirror the true

   heavenly things.  1Kings6;7 In building the temple,only

  blocks dressed at the quarry were used,and no hammer,

  chisel or any other iron tool was heard at the temple site while

  it was being built. Exodus 20;25 If you make an alter of

stones for me,do not build it with dressed stones,for you will

  defile it if you use a tool on it.

   . So,too, with  that spiritual temple that Jesus is raising up .

   When everything is made NEW and perfect and eternal what

  need of a waster to destroy is there when it is perfect?

   the waster is the evil tool He uses to accomplish His task.

   the liar has to perish for truth to increase..the end of death

  is LIFE  the end of all rebellion is harmony. the end of

  corruption is incorruption..when the work is accomplished the

  tool is set aside.

   It was blaspemy for a mere man to say he was God's son..

  the offspring of vipers said that to Jesus

   what kind of blasphemy is it for a mere tool[evil] to not only

say he is God's son but to also rebel and attempt totake His

throne for himself.....He has been persistenly humbled

step by step...from a rebellious angel[son of God] to

the original serpent..to the beast..to a bastard..to a lying spirit

to a son of perdition to an evil spirit ..to a mere tool.


   Our creator has to tell us what we are...or we are presumptous

  and that is the same as idolatry. Satan has presumed too

much himself.

   Our Father has humbled the proud[satan]

    and exalted the lowly[mankind]


  How do I fit in that scripture He shall reconcile all in heaven

  and earth? Evil spirits[angels/messages] and evil[sinful] flesh

  will be done away with forever....if there is no corrupt spirit

and no corrupt vessel what is there but Holy spirit and holy

vessels? Is that not a breaking up the works of the devil?

   I wouldn't ever let disagreement over this seperate me from

anyone on this forum. And in addition to the things I stated

above I have revelation from the Holy spirit about their

existance. I know that 'outlook' is deemed outmoded

by many.But Jesus was not 'humoring' the people of his day

in regard to superstitions...and just going along with them and

  'pretending' to be dealing with these spirits.


   Someday we will all be brought into perfect unityof knowledge

  but we must never allow any imperfect knowledge or knowing

in part to break our unity of love. Yes,we may not all see

  things the same way,exactly..and we each are free to

  express  our thoughts..even though we may differ

                        Sheila :soap:

           

     

   

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Question; looking at it in reverse, what part of man was one with Him from the foundation of the earth? What part of man was lowered then, into this bondage of corruption? Blessings.....

[Molly]

:cloud9: Question; looking at it in reverse, what part of man was one with Him from the foundation of the earth? What part of man was lowered then, into this bondage of corruption? Blessings.....

The Lamb [slain from the foundation of the world] is the part of Adam that was one with Him.

Man [Adam] was lowered into corruption [slain] as the seed [of Christ] that has to die first to give forth life.

in hope

21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

--Romans


"creature"

G2937
κτίσις
ktisis
ktis'-is
From G2936; original formation (properly the act; by implication the thing, literally or figuratively): - building, creation, creature, ordinance.


If I could just understand what a few of these verses are saying...


Adam and the sons of Adam have something to do with the liberation of all of God's creation.


It starts in a set apart place called the garden, and Christ finishes it on the cross before the whole world, but we are to manifest it.

[Doc]

I certainly understand and can appreciate your post, sheila. And who of us really knows the fate of certain angelic beings? I'm not sure that the scripture gives us enough information to say for certain one way or the other.

I do have some thoughts about sections of your post, so I'll just throw them out there for discussion:

  That's a really good question Jabcat. And I can certainly

  see why many of my brothers and sisters would think that

meant the fallen angels are to be reconciled too.

  And I beleive even the animals etc will be given eternal life

  the reason I don't beleive that the fallen angels will be is

because they are a tool..of a blacksmith..a waster to

destroy[corrupt].The spirit of life is not in them..or Father

  would certainly preserve that life.

The thought that came to mind here was that corruption must put on incorruption.
It seems to me that if angels were able to have the choice to leave their first estate, there may be some way to regain it. If angels had enough choice to rebel, then perhaps that is an indication that they are more than mere tools? Also, if God makes all (things) new, 'all' would (I would think) necessarily include the angelic beings.

   the old preistly covenant was set up to mirror the true

   heavenly things.  1Kings6;7 In building the temple,only

  blocks dressed at the quarry were used,and no hammer,

  chisel or any other iron tool was heard at the temple site while

  it was being built. Exodus 20;25 If you make an alter of

stones for me,do not build it with dressed stones,for you will

  defile it if you use a tool on it.

   . So,too, with  that spiritual temple that Jesus is raising up .

   When everything is made NEW and perfect and eternal what

  need of a waster to destroy is there when it is perfect?

   the waster is the evil tool He uses to accomplish His task.

   the liar has to perish for truth to increase..the end of death

  is LIFE  the end of all rebellion is harmony. the end of

  corruption is incorruption..when the work is accomplished the

  tool is set aside.

I don't disagree with these observations; my thoughts here would be:

Even though it is true that the waster is used to destroy, that is the ordained function for a time only, as was the case, I believe, with Judas. Once this is accomplished, the waster may be returned to it's former estate once its purpose as waster is served, and it has been duly purified. That view takes on a somewhat different character as well, if you view the waster/ adversary as the flesh or carnal mind, rather than a personal being, in which case outright elimination seems more appropriate. Extrapolating that view out to myriad fallen angels is a bit more problematic perhaps.

   It was blaspemy for a mere man to say he was God's son..

  the offspring of vipers said that to Jesus

   what kind of blasphemy is it for a mere tool[evil] to not only

say he is God's son but to also rebel and attempt totake His

throne for himself.....He has been persistenly humbled

step by step...from a rebellious angel[son of God] to

the original serpent..to the beast..to a bastard..to a lying spirit

to a son of perdition to an evil spirit ..to a mere tool.

And yet He has given us the priviledge of sonship. Jesus was the firstborn of many brothers; the highest and only begotten son, but not the only son.

   Our creator has to tell us what we are...or we are presumptous

  and that is the same as idolatry. Satan has presumed too

much himself.

   Our Father has humbled the proud[satan]

    and exalted the lowly[mankind]

I certainly agree that our creator must tell us who/ what we are, as our true identity is only in Him/ is Him. Pride and presumption are (of) the spirit of antichrist.

  How do I fit in that scripture He shall reconcile all in heaven

  and earth? Evil spirits[angels/messages] and evil[sinful] flesh

  will be done away with forever....if there is no corrupt spirit

and no corrupt vessel what is there but Holy spirit and holy

vessels? Is that not a breaking up the works of the devil?

It is a breaking up the works of the devil in a sense, but it is also more than that. Perhaps the key word there is works of the devil. He came to destroy the works of the devil, but not necessarily the devil himself except in the sense of transformation or restoration (assuming the personal devil view). A corrupt spirit could be done away with by transforming it or restoring it into an incorruptible spirit as well as literal annihilation.

   I wouldn't ever let disagreement over this seperate me from

anyone on this forum. And in addition to the things I stated

above I have revelation from the Holy spirit about their

existance. I know that 'outlook' is deemed outmoded

by many.But Jesus was not 'humoring' the people of his day

in regard to superstitions...and just going along with them and

  'pretending' to be dealing with these spirits.

Nor would I let that come between us, and I'm not really arguing with you; just thinking out loud mostly.
I don't disagree that their existence is real, however there is a higher spiritual reality (tabernacles) where for all practical purposes, they don't exist. I don't expect you or anyone else to understand that, because I'm not sure I do fully.  :laughing7: What I mean to say there, is that there is a reality where there is only God, nothing else. This is the reality that all creation is to ultimately become part of.

   Someday we will all be brought into perfect unityof knowledge

  but we must never allow any imperfect knowledge or knowing

in part to break our unity of love. Yes,we may not all see

  things the same way,exactly..and we each are free to

  express  our thoughts..even though we may differ

                        Sheila :soap:

             

Indeed we will be brought into that unity. If we all saw things exactly the same way, we wouldn't be much of a body would we? (All eyes, all hands, etc.)

Once again, I really appreciate your thoughts in this post, and I hope my interjected thoughts are fuel for further thoughtful discussion. I certainly don't mean them to be authoritative or a putdown of your thoughts in any way, at any rate.

Grace and peace to you, sis.  :icon_flower:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I guess I should rephrase the question. What part of man (spirit, soul, or body) was one with Him from the foundation of the world? Blessings....

[sheila]

  well, you guys have given me a lot to consider.

  I,too, at one time prayed about the fallen angels..and about

the thought of them warring in heaven,and how upsetting that

 must be for our Father..and attempted to make intercession.

 And even this is commendable to the saints..that they are of

such a loving and forgiving heart that they would be

 concerned for the angels in heaven. I know Enoch,also,

 went to make petition  to God in the matter.

  And I would not be offended in any way God chose to go

   about this restoration...and gather all that is scattered

  As to what manner a corrupt spirit can be restored..it

 seems it,too, must die a certain kind of death.

  Nevertheless..we know that all that is corrupt does not

 enter that New Jerusalem city,but only those whose names are

 written in the Lambs Book of Life.


  Matthew 12;28  But if I drive out demons by the spirit of God,

 then the kingdom of God has come upon you.


 Luke 8;31 and they begged him repeatedly not to order

 them to go into the abyss[bottomless]

  evidently after the abyss confinement when they are let out..

 they go forth to deceive again and to war again against the

camp of the city He loves. But fire come down from heaven and

 devoured them.  Earth and sky[old heavens] fled from  his

 presence and there was NO PLACE for them...[I consider Jesus

saying 'I go to prepare a place for you']

 then death and hades were thrown into the LOF


 Anyway,we know the time will come when sin in any form will

 no longer exist. There will be no place for it.

  I have to go get my grand-children,today.They are on spring

break and will be staying with me til Wednesday. So if I don't

reply,think nothing of it..for I will check the thread from time to

time and read your posts. Also, I will pray about this matter

too

                                    Sheila    

 

[peacemaker]

"Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and
that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the
waster to destroy."

Paraphrased for emphasis ...

"I have dispatched the carpenter to kindle the live coals of the fire, bringing forth the vessel, or jewel through his labor, cutting down the corrupter by a pledge."

What a solemn promise!

peacemaker

[pneuma]

though this interesting:

Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and
that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the
waster to destroy.

            Shachath TWOT - 2370
            Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
            shaw-khath'    Verb

       Definition
        1.. to destroy, corrupt, go to ruin, decay
          1.. (Niphal) to be marred, be spoiled, be corrupted, be corrupt,
be injured, be ruined, be rotted
          2.. (Piel)
            1.. to spoil, ruin
            2.. to pervert, corrupt, deal corruptly (morally)
          3.. (Hiphil)
            1.. to spoil, ruin, destroy
            2.. to pervert, corrupt (morally)
            3.. destroyer (participle)
          4.. (Hophal) spoiled, ruined (participle)



ok thats my one post for the day.  :mblush:

God
Bless

chuckt

Hi Chuck did ya read the Septuagint version of those scriptures I posted earlier? Say something totally different then the KJV.

Septuagint

16 Behold, I have created thee, not as the coppersmith blowing coals, and bringing out a vessel fit for work; but I have created thee, not for ruin, that I should destroy thee. 17 I will not suffer any weapon formed against thee to prosper; and every voice that shall rise up against thee for judgment, thou shalt vanquish them all; and thine adversaries shall be condemned thereby. There is an inheritance to them that serve the Lord, and ye shall be righteous before me, saith the Lord.

Notice the words NOT in those scriptures, God did NOT create us as the coppersmith that brings out a vessel fit for work and God has NOT created us for ruin.

[pneuma]

well just because we must fall to the earth and die..to bear

fruit in heaven...doesn't mean were the fallen angels.

  Some of the Lost gospels speak of things that differentiate

  the fallen angels from fallen Adam.  Granted,there are

  similarities in common of rebelliousness. But these are spirits

  they have not been placed in a vessel..coz they left their

   dwellings in heaven.God sowed man in the earth..man did not

  in rebellion come down on his own

    Those born of God can not sin...so..they have no corruptible

vessels to flub them up..the corruption is their spirit nature

  that shows these fallen spirits are not angelic sons..but

  something entirely different..evil spirits...and hey..if Holy

  spirit can influence us to good these can influence us to evil


.Our Father sowed us into this earth as HIS

   HOLY SEED. The problem is satan wants to rule over

  man..use his flesh for his own works of evil. Jesus came in

flesh and redeemed all mankind sown in flesh..not disobediant

angels.. I NEVER ONCE HEARD HIM SAY HE CAME TO SAVE THE

DEMONS OR SATAN. When He spoke to the demonic he cast

them out of peoples flesh..because they didn't belong there

The fallen angels down here don't have their own flesh and

blood..that's why they want ours so bad..to defile GOD'S image

. Personally I see them as parasites that bring death to us..

  both spiritually and bodily. His GOOD SPIRIT is not like that

  it gives life to us and is beneficeint to us..

  There was WAR in HEAVEN...Michael and his angels fought

against satan and his angels..apparently satan and his angels

accuse us to God all the time..and say we are as bad as them

and not worthy of being saved. THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE

BETWEEN A NAIVE CHILD OF GOD THAT DOESN'T KNOW HIS

RIGHT HAND FROM HIS LEFT and is born in a corruptible weak

body into a corrupted earth where lies abound. And a demonic

spirit that has lived in heaven for a long long time..rebelled

in heaven ..come to earth spreading lies on God..lead Adam

and Eve into sin through deceit to bring about their death,

possess mens bodies as if he owned them himself instead of

them belonging to God for God's spirit to dwell in and finally

through an act of war was permenately thrown out to earth

  to await his judgement .

  Big difference between them and us...DO YOU NOT KNOW

  THAT WE ARE BEING RAISED TO HEAVEN TO TAKE THEIR

  FORMER DWELLING PLACES? Jacob/supplanter God has given

Adam's family their former positions.And rightly so for they

stole Adam's dominion given on the earth for themselves

They are the true sons of perdition[eternal cutting off] this was

shown when satan entered Judas. body...the one doomed to

destruction....give his position to another

  They are not capable of LOVE OR MERCY..they are not

  made in the image of God....we in sinful flesh..bear their image

  in the corruption of our flesh.But will be given new garments

   Mankind will go from glory to glory..while they will go from

  vileness to vileness.  Jesus said if I be lifted up,I will draw

  all men unto me[not satan and his demons]

   I know many of you will not agree with me..but I hope you will

   pray about it.

                              Sheila


                                   

Hi Sheila, heres a different outlook

Satan's reconciliation

When we limit God salvation to just man we do much damage to the scriptures, and put a limit on the only one who is without limit. We diminish the fullness of the cross of our Lord by saying it only reaches to mankind. ALL THINGS in heaven and earth and under the earth are reconciled by way of the cross. And yes that includes Satan.


Ephesians 1:10
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Philippians 2:10-11
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Just by these two scriptures above we can see that all things in the heaven will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. But not only those things in the heavens, but those things in the earth and under the earth also confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

ALL THINGS are reconciled by way of the cross of our Lord.

Colossians 1:16-20
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Now least any say, but Col.1:16-20 says nothing about Satan being reconciled, I would point out that ALL THINGS in heaven, ALL THINGS in the earth, both visible and INVISIBLE, are reconciled.

Also note that it states that THRONES, DOMINIONS, PRINCIPALITIES and POWERS are also reconciled by way of the cross.

So who are these THRONES, DOMINIONS, PRINCIPALITIES and POWERS?

Ephesians 6:12 tells us.


Ephesians 6:12
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Now according to the above scriptures even those things we war against ( devils in high places ) are reconciled by way of the cross.


And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Note that the LIGHT shineth IN the darkness.

The darkness also has the Light and in the dispensation of the fullness of times, that Light is going to shine out of great darkness.

Yes the darkness will be gone for only the Light that is within it will remain, same as with us.

ALL THINGS are reconciled by way of the cross , I do not place a limit on Gods salvation for it is without limit.


Ephesians 3:8-10
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God

Praise God His cross is without limitations.

God bless.

[Doc]

Great post, pneuma!

[legoman]

Yes good post pneuma.

This verse should give us a big clue as what happens to the angels (presumably "fallen" angels too?)

1 Cor 6:3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!

The angels will get judged, just like everyone else.  And we know God's judgment doesn't lead to hell, but leads to things being corrected, reconciled, and made righteous.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Yes good post pneuma.

This verse should give us a big clue as what happens to the angels (presumably "fallen" angels too?)

1 Cor 6:3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!

The angels will get judged, just like everyone else.  And we know God's judgment doesn't lead to hell, but leads to things being corrected, reconciled, and made righteous.

Lets not forget that judgment should not always be seen in the light of correction, but mostly first and foremost of reward.

I do not believe in fallen angels myself, that belief is quite irrelevant when it comes down to something I cannot prove,  but are we to judge the angels for their wrong doing?  Perhaps,  but I see it as when we learn true unconditional love we will be rewarding them.

[pneuma]

this sorta bothers me, are we not gonna be glorified? was adam glorified? if so how did he loose that and once we are glorified can we fail again?

see my point? wasnt adam OF the earth? (( from below ))  will we not be made BETTER? in the likness of the  heavenly ?

chuckt dont like dirt.

peace

Hi Chuck, that scripture that states the first man Adam is of the earth earthy is one of the reason I never mentioned before some of these thoughts that have been going through my mind.

I have spoken many times of the earth earthy man so how can his first estate be in the heavenlies?

This was always my argument that I ran up against in my own head. After all Adam was created from the dust OUTSIDE of the garden and then placed into the garden so how can Adam's first estate be in the heavenlies?

Should not his first estate then be of the earth OUTSIDE of the garden? And his second estate be of the heavenlies?

You can see by this reasoning why I have had a hard time excepting our first estate to be of the heavenlies. So you're probably wondering why it was I that brought it up in the first place. The reason is because I did find an answer to this dilemma.

So let us look at the angels that keep not their first estate.

Jude 6
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. 

What does it mean by the phrase first estate?

Does it mean that Adam's first estate was in the heavenlies?

Not according to the scriptures that tell us Adam was created from the dust OUTSIDE of the garden and that he is of the earth earthy.

So if Jude is actually in reference to man how can the first estate be reconciled with the fact that Adam was of the earth earthy?

The answer lies in GRACE, Adam was created in a STATE of GRACE, this was mans FIRST ESTATE, an estate where although sin was in the world it was not imputed.

AFTER Adam was disobedient, his disobedience caused him to fall from GRACE.

Thus Christ came to reconcile us back to our earlier statehood, and we now by His death are in the same STATE that Adam was created in.

However now that we have been reconciled by His death we are to go on to perfection by His life, which is a little off topic, but hey I wanted to say it anyways. :happygrin:

Anyway I hope this is of some help to others who are looking into this.

God bless

[bobf]

So how is it that God who is LOVE and LOVE worketh NO evil, is said to create evil?

I agree that God worketh no evil in the sense that nothing God does is evil.  I do not agree that God never does something active which causes evil to increase.  For example, God TOLD Satan to go smite Job.  God GAVE Paul a thorn in the flesh which was a messenger of Satan.  God was not working evil in either case, but Satan was working evil in both cases and God DID something active in both cases to cause it.

Evil is not the opposite of good evil is the absence of good. Therefore God creates evil by withdrawing His presence or turning His back. "I will shew them the back, and not the face, in the day of their calamity".  And we see this same principle throughout scripture, God turning His back on man because of mans disobedience, and as evil is the absence of God of good when God turns His back or withdraws His presence evil abounds.

Throughout scripture I see many examples of God actively doing something such that evil increases for His purposes.  For example, God SENT this destructive army.  God even calls it His Own army.

• Joel 2:25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.

Thus God is not working evil, He just turns His back and gives man up to the desires of their own hearts.

1. God is not working evil in my view of things either.
2. Yes, in all cases the evil desires in the heart of men or spirit beings is orginating and bringing forth evil
3. But it seems that God deliberatley creates circumstances in which God knows that an evil heart will come to fruition.
--- God said to Satan "have you considered my servant Job..." knowing what that would lead to in Satan's heart.
--- God gave Joseph a dream, knowing he'd tell the dream to his brothers, knowing they would become jealous, knowing they would seek to kill hiu.
--- God hardened pharoahs heart. etc.
4. In no case is God manipulating the mind or will in some supernatural way to puppeteer someone into doing evil.

Ethically, how is there really any difference between "withdrawing protection" vs taking some other action such that evil increases?  How are these any different from an ethical standpoint?
1. I am holding a shield that protects mankind from deadly radiation of the sun and I withdraw it and everyone perishes
2. I sent a comet to the earth and all mankind perishes.
To me, it is God's ability to make it all turn out alright in the end that makes it ok.

It is GOOD for a man to bear the yoke of His youth.  Therefore it is GOOD to be forced by God to reap what you sow.  So God has no problem taking credit for the reaping which includes an experience of evil that God raises up.

Do we not see this same principle brought out here

Isaiah 54:6-17
6 For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God. 7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee. 8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.

Yes, I do see the same principal there.  But God's wrath there was likened to the waters of Noah which God actively caused.

[claypot]

Bob, you said.......

To me, it is God's ability to make it all turn out alright in the end that makes it ok.

So Good!

My 2 cents is kind of what you are saying Bob. If someone is being raped in a parking lot and I am there and I have the means to stop it and don't then I am as guilty of the crime as the one actually doing the deed. Now I know God is way beyond my perception of what is right and wrong because of your quote above but it is impossible for me to say God is not active in the works of evil, if nothing else, by association.

cp

[peacemaker]

To me, it is God's ability to make it all turn out alright in the end that makes it ok.     Makes what, Okay?

If someone is being raped in a parking lot and I am there and I have the means to stop it and don't then I am as guilty of the crime as the one actually doing the deed. Now I know God is way beyond my perception of what is right and wrong because of your quote above but it is impossible for me to say God is not active in the works of evil, if nothing else, by association.

Sounds familiar, but it was two girls who were fifteen years of age, and eleven male perpetrator's (rapists), in their late twenties and mid-thirties. Although, those are kinder words than they deserve. Not guilty by association, but was prepared beforehand (U.S. Army, Special Forces), as intervention was inevitable – and required!

It is the heart of man that is evil, else, there would be no need of Christ Jesus, either!

peacemaker

[pneuma]

So how is it that God who is LOVE and LOVE worketh NO evil, is said to create evil?

I agree that God worketh no evil in the sense that nothing God does is evil.  I do not agree that God never does something active which causes evil to increase.  For example, God TOLD Satan to go smite Job.  God GAVE Paul a thorn in the flesh which was a messenger of Satan.  God was not working evil in either case, but Satan was working evil in both cases and God DID something active in both cases to cause it.

Evil is not the opposite of good evil is the absence of good. Therefore God creates evil by withdrawing His presence or turning His back. "I will shew them the back, and not the face, in the day of their calamity".  And we see this same principle throughout scripture, God turning His back on man because of mans disobedience, and as evil is the absence of God of good when God turns His back or withdraws His presence evil abounds.

Throughout scripture I see many examples of God actively doing something such that evil increases for His purposes.  For example, God SENT this destructive army.  God even calls it His Own army.

• Joel 2:25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.

Thus God is not working evil, He just turns His back and gives man up to the desires of their own hearts.

1. God is not working evil in my view of things either.
2. Yes, in all cases the evil desires in the heart of men or spirit beings is orginating and bringing forth evil
3. But it seems that God deliberatley creates circumstances in which God knows that an evil heart will come to fruition.
--- God said to Satan "have you considered my servant Job..." knowing what that would lead to in Satan's heart.
--- God gave Joseph a dream, knowing he'd tell the dream to his brothers, knowing they would become jealous, knowing they would seek to kill hiu.
--- God hardened pharoahs heart. etc.
4. In no case is God manipulating the mind or will in some supernatural way to puppeteer someone into doing evil.

Ethically, how is there really any difference between "withdrawing protection" vs taking some other action such that evil increases?  How are these any different from an ethical standpoint?
1. I am holding a shield that protects mankind from deadly radiation of the sun and I withdraw it and everyone perishes
2. I sent a comet to the earth and all mankind perishes.
To me, it is God's ability to make it all turn out alright in the end that makes it ok.

It is GOOD for a man to bear the yoke of His youth.  Therefore it is GOOD to be forced by God to reap what you sow.  So God has no problem taking credit for the reaping which includes an experience of evil that God raises up.

Do we not see this same principle brought out here

Isaiah 54:6-17
6 For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God. 7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee. 8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.

Yes, I do see the same principal there.  But God's wrath there was likened to the waters of Noah which God actively caused.

Hi Bob you and I have been over this before, I respect your view and do think we agree in part, but every point taken from old testament is taken from under a vail and is not seen clearly, they simply did not know the Father because it was Jesus who came to reveal Him.

So for me even though I don't understand all the things that happened in the old testament I take my light from what Jesus revealed of our Father, therefore for me the old testament, even those things that make it look like God did evil things we simply do not understand.

Example: many ET preaches use the old testament about how God did this and that to people to try to prove that as God never changes He will do the same things again. But we know that what seems to many to be ET that the truth actually is different then what the scripture SEEM to say in the new testament, so should we not also look old testament to see what might SEEM like the same?

Bad translations of the scriptures has a lot to do with why people see ET and God doing what seems evil in scripture.
We also know that the scribes changed things in scripture to show forth their own understanding of scripture, Justin Martyr a desciple of John even in his day complained of the scribes changing the scriptures and omitting some scriptures. therefore not everything may be as it SEEMS.

Israel of old could not see to the end of their salvation, thus they wrote in shadow, beleived in shadow, and knew in shadow, but Christ came and did away with the shadow because He is the light and what He said of the Father shows the Father in a different light then what the scribes wrote of the Father. Therefore I stand on the light Christ gave of the Father and any other view then His(Christs) is nothing but a shadow of the truth.

God bless